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你好。
Hello.
我是基尔斯蒂·杨，这是来自《荒岛唱片》档案的播客。
I'm Kirsty Young, and this is a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive.
由于版权原因，我们不得不缩短了音乐部分。
For rights reasons, we've had to shorten the music.
这个节目最初于1995年播出，主持人是苏·劳利。
The program was originally broadcast in 1995, and the presenter was Sue Lawley.
本周的荒岛嘉宾是摇滚乐坛最年长的明星。
My castaway this week is the oldest star in rock music.
他于七十四年前出生在密西西比三角洲，他那深沉有力的嗓音已拥有超过一百张蓝调专辑。
Born seventy four years ago in the Mississippi Delta, his resonant deep throated voice now has more than a 100 blues albums to its credit.
他来自一个南方的佃农家庭。
He comes from a family of southern sharecroppers.
他十四岁时离家出走，从此踏上音乐之路。
He ran away when he was 14 and he went on the road as a musician.
他深受滚石乐队和埃里克·克莱普顿等巨星的敬仰，但他的职业生涯在七十年代末和八十年代似乎已经结束。
Greatly revered by stars such as the Rolling Stones and Eric Clapton, his career seemed to have come to an end during the late seventies and the eighties.
然后在69岁时，他推出了专辑《治愈者》。
And then at the age of 69 he came out with the album the Healer'.
这是音乐史上最为惊人的复出之一。
It was one of the most astonishing comebacks in the history of the business.
他说：‘我热爱人们、小型夜总会和漂亮的女性。’
'I love people, small nightclubs and pretty women' he says.
之后，我就专心唱歌了。
After that I just get on with singing.
接下来是约翰·李·胡克。
Here is John Lee Hooker.
约翰，你之所以能如此出色地继续演唱蓝调，是因为你一直贴近自己热爱的事物吗？
Is that why you go on singing the blues as well as you do John because you stay close to the things that you love?
我承认，我喜欢漂亮的女性。
I admit I do like pretty women.
我承认，我确实承认。
I admit I admit that.
那根本就不是一个男人，不管怎样。
That that wouldn't be a man, whatever.
嗯，有些人不会，但我就会。
Well, someone don't, but I do.
还有那些年轻人，我想让他们理解蓝调的真谛。
And people, the young people trying to get them to see what the blues is all about.
但据我理解，蓝调并不是关于感到忧郁，对吧？
But the blues, as I understand it, isn't about feeling blue, is it?
而是关于感觉更好。
It's about feeling better.
是关于战胜一切。
It's about overpowering.
这正是我想让人们明白的。
That's what I try to get the people to see.
蓝调不是让人沮丧的东西。
Blues is not a downer.
蓝调是一种疗愈。
Blues is a healer.
让人感觉更好。
Get people to feeling better.
当你心里有事特别困扰时，你可以听一些好的蓝调音乐。
When something on your mind really bothers you, you can put on some good blues.
一旦你的思绪被触动，它会提升你，而不是压垮你。
As soon as your mind, it picks you up, not put you down.
但你必须经历过低落，才能唱出蓝调吗？
But have you got to have known what it's like to be blue in order to sing the blues?
你必须经历过痛苦。
You've got to have suffered.
我唱蓝调并不需要先受苦。
I didn't have to suffer to sing the blues.
上帝赐予了我这份非凡的天赋。
God would give me this great talent.
但你生来就是美国黑人家庭的一员，祖祖辈辈都经历过苦难，这种情感是与生俱来的吗？
But was it born in you because you're born of an American black family who had generations before known about suffering?
我的意思是，这种感觉在你体内吗？
I mean is it in you?
这跟黑人或白人没关系，它就像一个天生的蓝调歌手那样自然而然。
It wasn't black, it wasn't white, it's something that automatic as as a born blues singer.
但人们说，你知道，猫王唱得像黑人，他把蓝调唱得那么好，简直像是黑人一样。
But then people said, you know, that Elvis sang like a black man, that he sang the blues so well he might have been black.
我不会这么说。
I wouldn't say that.
唱蓝调不需要是某种肤色的人。
You don't have to be a color to sing the blues.
蓝调没有颜色。
Blues ain't got no color.
很多白人蓝调歌手也能唱得像乔·科克兰那样，他是个天生的蓝调歌手，还有埃里克·克莱普顿。
So many white blues singers can sing the blues like Joe Cochran, he's a born blues singer, Eric Clapton.
你跟我说说这个。
You tell me this.
你必须爱过一个好女人，又失去她，才能唱蓝调吗？
Do you have to have loved a good woman to sing the blues and to have lost her?
不，我没有。
No, I didn't.
我刚开始唱蓝调的时候，连女朋友都没有。
When I was singing the blues, didn't even have a woman when I started.
我只是个年轻的孩子，非常快乐，非常快乐。
I was just a young kid, very happy, very happy.
我当时根本不懂女人的艰辛，因为那个年纪我从未谈过恋爱。
I didn't know nothing about a hard time being a woman because I never was in love at that age.
我确实能唱好蓝调。
I could really sing the blues.
布鲁斯音乐源于人类、生活和世界的本质。
Blues are based upon human beings, life, the way the world is.
告诉我你想要带去这个荒岛的布鲁斯音乐。
Tell me about the blues you want to take to this desert island with you.
你第一张想在荒岛上播放的唱片是什么？
What's the first record that you'd like to play on your desert island?
嗯，穆迪·沃特斯是一位伟大的布鲁斯歌手。
Well, Muddy Waters is a great, great blues singer.
他非常欣赏我，也是我的好朋友。
He was a great fan of mine and a great friend.
我肯定会把他带到那里。
I definitely would have him out there.
放上一些穆迪·沃特斯的布鲁斯，我就坐在荒岛上。
Put on some Muddy Water Blues and I sit there on the desert island.
没人会动我的吉他。
Nobody would mean my guitar.
没有女人，什么都没有，只有我的音乐。
No woman, no nothing but just my music.
那是穆迪·沃特斯的《我的魔力在身》。
That was Muddy Waters and Got My Mojo Working.
哦，这首歌我太熟悉了。
Oh, know that one so well.
正如我在介绍中所说，约翰·李·胡克，你六年前重新走红了，对吧？
So you were, as I said in my introduction, John Lee Hooker, you were relaunched six years ago, weren't you?
那时候你已经很久没有出过唱片了。
When you you hadn't made any records for a long time.
我有一段时间退出了。
For a long time I dropped out.
然后你突然又重新流行起来，凭借这张专辑《治愈者》。
And then suddenly you came back into fashion again with this album, The Healer.
这对你来说是一种奇怪的经历吗？因为你并没有做任何不同于以往的事情，是吗？
Was it a strange experience for you because you weren't doing anything different from what you'd always done, were you?
只是潮流又转回来了。
It's just kind of fashion had come back around.
嗯，你没做任何不同的事，但一定是我的时机到了。
Well, you doing anything different, but it must've been my time.
再次？
Again?
是的。
Yeah.
我现在做的和那时不一样了。
I'm not doing the same thing I did then.
蓝调是不会变的，对吧？
The blues don't change, do they?
永远不会变，就像密西西比河，一直滚滚向前。
Never change, like Old Man River, just keeps on rolling.
也许流得不快，但它一直在流淌。
May not roll fast but it just keeps on rolling
但显然它非常多样，因为它能融入各种不同的风格。
but obviously it's very versatile because it fits in with all sorts of different styles
好吧，我告诉你，你可能不同意我的观点，所有音乐都源自布鲁斯。
well I'll tell you what you may not agree with me on this everything come from the blues.
所有的音乐都是布鲁斯，它是根源。
All music is blues is the root.
摇滚、情歌、说唱，你都在谈论女人，女人在谈论男人。
Rock, ballads, rap, you're talking about a woman, the woman talking about a man.
你在谈论心碎，她离开了我，或者他离开了我。
You're talking about heartache, she left me or he left me.
但你对现代音乐形式怎么看？
But what do you think of modern forms of music?
你对说唱音乐怎么看？
What do you think of rap?
我不喜欢它。
I don't like it.
对我来说，只是在聊天。
To me, just talking.
那迪斯科音乐呢？
What about disco music?
迪斯科的节奏比说唱好得多。
Disco has really got a better beat than rap is.
我对说唱没什么意见，别误会，但这不是我的风格。
I got nothing wrong with rap, don't be wrong, but it just ain't my bag.
但迪斯科，我挺喜欢的。
But disco, I kind of like it.
迪斯科做的也是同样的事，我在做，只是节奏不同，但表达的内容是一样的。
Disco doing the same thing, I'm doing it, just different beats, but it's saying the same words.
跟我说说你的下一张专辑吧。
Tell me about your next record.
哦，《只是一个女人》。
Oh, Nothing But A Woman.
哦，这真是一针见血。
Oh, that hits the nail on her head.
这说到我心坎里了。
That hits me.
《Nothing But A Woman》，我太喜欢了。
Nothing But A Woman, I love that.
这就够了。
That's all I need.
只是一个女人。
Nothing but a woman.
但他当时选对了。
But he picked the good one then.
罗伯特·克雷和《Nothing But A Woman》。
Robert Cray and Nothing But A Woman.
如果我没理解错的话，约翰，你是个传道人的儿子、传道人的兄弟，也是传道人的父亲？
If I got this right John, you're the son of a preacher, the brother of a preacher and the father of a preacher?
嗯，我兄弟是牧师，我父亲是牧师，我有个儿子叫罗伯特，你知道的，他被称为晚辈牧师。
Well, the brother's a preacher, my father was a minister, and I got a son, Robert, you know, he's called a late preacher.
而且，我真的来自教会。
And really, I come from the church.
但你
But you
是在充满歌唱和灵性音乐的环境中长大的。
were brought up very much in sort of singing, spiritual singing.
我被教导要对教会忠诚。
I was taught very to be loyal in the church.
我仍然是基督徒。
I'm still a Christian.
我是耶和华见证人。
I'm a Jehovah Witness.
我最早和一个叫五田四的团体一起唱灵歌。
I first sang spiritually with the group called Five Field Four.
当我去教堂唱歌时，人们一听到我开嗓就会大喊大叫。
When I go to church, people would be hollering and yelling when I start singing.
但据我理解，你父亲并不喜欢你在家里唱歌，是吗？
But your father didn't, if I understand it right, didn't like you singing at home, did he?
不喜欢
Didn't like
不是蓝调。
you Not the blues.
蓝调？
The blues?
他们称那是魔鬼音乐。
They call it devil music.
但根本没有什么魔鬼音乐。
But there's no devil music.
那就跟我讲讲你早年在家里的生活吧。
But just tell me about your home then in those very early days.
我说过你们家是佃农。
I said you were your family were sharecroppers.
那是什么意思？
What does that mean?
家是什么样子的？
What was home
家是什么样子的？
and what was home?
你是说什么是佃农吗？
You mean what is sharecropper?
他们拥有大片土地。
Owned a whole lot of land.
他们租下所有这些土地。
They rent all that land.
他们有自己的土地。
They had their own land.
他们自己种水果、养猪、养牛，还种棉花。
They raised their own fruit, own pigs, own cows, their own cotton.
但告诉我，关于你的家。
But tell me, me about your home.
你住的是什么样的房子？
What did you live in?
你和家人是怎么生活的？
How did you and the family live?
嗯，我们生活得不错。
Well we lived good.
有些事我不太愿意谈，但你既然问了，我就说。
Something I don't like to talk about, but you ask me, I will.
那时候南方非常糟糕。
The South was very bad back then.
我知道你读过相关记载，但我们真的很幸运。
I know you read about it, but we were so fortunate.
我这辈子从未挨过饿。
I never went to hunger in a day in my life.
我爸爸是个大修道院。
And my dad was a big monastery.
他受到白人的喜爱，也受到每个人的爱戴。
He was loved by white, he was loved by everybody.
他是个了不起的大人物。
He was a big, big man.
他有自己的土地，并且租了出去。
He had his own land, he had leased it.
他是个了不起的大人物，所以我们没经历过艰难时光。
He was a big, big man, so we didn't see a hard time.
但最终你的父母分开了，是吧？
But eventually your parents separated, didn't they?
那是你的继父
And it was your step father
是的。
Yes.
我去过
And I went
教你弹吉他？
taught you to play the guitar?
嗯。
Mhmm.
跟我说说他吧。
Tell me about him.
威尔莫？
Wilmo?
他是个很棒的吉他手。
He's a great guitar player.
我现在弹的，就是他以前弹的。
What I'm playing now, that's what he played.
他教我弹我现在弹的曲子。
He taught me to play what I'm playing now.
我真希望他能活着听到他为我所做的一切。
I wish he was around to hear what he did for me.
但他是在哪里学会弹吉他的呢？
But where had he learned to play the guitar?
他怎么知道的？
How did he know?
这是个好问题。
It was a good question.
我遇见他时，他正在弹，你这样弹，别弹那些花哨的和弦。
When I met him, he was playing, You play like this, don't play no fancy chord.
直接拿起吉他，疯狂地弹就行。
Just pick up the guitar and play insane.
别管什么书本了。
Forget about a book.
我听说你最初是用绑在谷仓门上的轮胎当乐器来演奏的，是吗？
I heard that you I read that you began by playing with a tire attached to a barn door, didn't you?
是的，我也这么做过。
Yeah, I used do that too.
那是在你拥有吉他之前吗？
That was before you got a guitar?
对。
Yeah.
你第一次得到吉他时多大？
How old were you when you got your first guitar?
哦，大概12岁。
Oh, about 12.
不过你显然非常有抱负，想要离开那个地方，离开密西西比州的克拉克斯代尔，对吧？
You were obviously very ambitious to get out of that place though, weren't you, out of Clarksdale, Mississippi?
你后来曾说过两件事，我可以引用一下，可以吗？
You've said since that you said two things, I can quote you if I may.
从一开始，我就感觉自己与其他人不同。
Right from the start I had a sense of being set apart from the rest.
你还说过，我觉得全世界的人都会知道约翰·李·胡克。
And you've also said I felt that all over the world everybody was gonna know John Lee Hooker.
是的。
Yeah.
我和家里的其他人有点不一样。
I was kind of different from my other family.
我觉得自己一定会有所作为。
Felt like I was going to really do things.
我从未怀疑过自己。
I never doubted myself.
谈谈你的第三张唱片吧。
Tell me about your third record.
你说到霍伦沃尔夫？
Me about Hollenwolf?
我会想在沙漠上拥有它吗？
Would I like to have it on the desert?
哦，当然会。
Oh, yes.
我做过，听过《The Mighty Wolf》和《The Tail Bragger》，然后声音变得像天使一样。
I've done it and listened to The Mighty Wolf, The Tail Bragger, and then got a voice like an angel.
播放一下《The Mighty Wolf》吧。
Play the mighty wolf a little bit.
那是Howlin' Wolf，还有为我的宝贝而嚎叫。
That was Howlin' Wolf and Howlin' for my baby.
所以，约翰·李·胡克，你14岁时离家出走了。
So John Lee Hooker, you ran away from home when you were 14.
你去了哪里？
Where did you go?
你靠什么生活？
How did you live?
那时候，你什么都不怕。
At that age, you ain't scared of nothing.
有一天晚上，我离开了。
I left there one night.
你知道，我真不知道该怎么跟你说，但当你十三四岁的时候，你胆子大得像钢铁一样。
You know, you I don't know how to put this to you, but when you're and 13, 14 years old, you got nerve like a piece of steel.
为了离开那里，你什么都不怕。
You ain't scared of nothing to get out of there.
有一天晚上，我带着我的吉他离开了我继父和妈妈的家。
I left there one night with my guitar out of my stepdad, my mom's house.
我想站在聚光灯下。
I wanted to be in the limelight.
我离开时，口袋里只有两美元，那是我离开前两周继父给我的。
When I left there, I had $2 in my pocket that my stepdad had given me about two weeks before I left.
那时候，这笔钱可不少。
That was a lot of money then.
那时候，人们不会杀人或抢劫，大家都会搭便车。
At that time, people weren't killing people and robbing people and were hitchhiking.
他们不会打扰你。
They wouldn't bother you.
我一路搭便车到了孟菲斯。
I got a ride all the way to Memphis.
然后我在新日电影院找了一份小工作。
Then I got a little job at the New Day, the picture show.
你进来，我带你去座位。
You come in, I'll show you your seat.
告诉他们请跟我来，穿着那件红色外套或红色夹克的人。
Tell them follow me please, that little red suit or red jacket.
看起来整洁又可爱。
Looking real neat and cute.
我做了很长时间。
I did that for a long time.
你过了多少年才再次见到你母亲？
How many years was it before you saw your mother again?
我后来又见了一次。
I saw once more.
不，我之后没再见过她，因为她去世了。
No, I didn't see her again because she passed.
但又见了一次，然后她就去世了。
But one more time and she passed.
你再次见到她时多大年纪？
How old were you when you saw her again?
哦，那时我已经是个年轻人了。
Oh, I was a young man.
大概二十多岁左右吧。
About in my twenties or whatever.
但是
But
我想直到你28岁，也就是战争结束几年后，你才终于被发现，有人邀请你录制唱片，是吧？
it wasn't until you were 28 I think, a few years after the war, that finally you were kind of discovered, you were asked to make a record, weren't you?
嗯，你知道的，我具备那个天赋，那个年轻人埃尔默·巴芭拉发现了我。
Well, you know, I had what it take and this young man, Elmer Barbara, discovered me.
我当时在一个小俱乐部里演出，就在那栋房子里，他走了进来，盯着我看。
I was playing in a little club in the house part and he walked in and he's looking at me.
他对我说：‘孩子，过来一下。’
And he said, Come here kid.
我回答：‘先生。’
I said, sir.
他说：‘你穿得真体面，西装革履的。’
You got on a fine suit and suit and suit.
我回答：‘是的，先生。’
I said, Yes sir.
他说：‘哦，你唱得真棒。’
He said, Oh, you sure sound good.
他说：‘你明天有什么安排？’
Said, what are you doing tomorrow?
所以我在这儿工作，你能来我的店里吗？
So I'm working here and can you come to my shop?
我有个录音室，想跟你谈谈录唱片的事，我们录了很多首歌，包括《Boogie Children》。
I got a studio and I want to talk to you about recording and I want and we cut up a whole lot of this including Boogie Children.
我们把那首歌录到了空白唱片上。
We put that on the blank.
《Boogie Children》。
Boogie Children.
是的。
Yeah.
他们给了我一份合同，两千美元。
And they give me a contract, 2,000.
我以前从未一次性拿到过这么多钱。
I had never had that much money upfront.
我以前从未有过这么多钱。
I had never had that much money.
我说：‘哦，是的，我已经看过了。’
I said, Oh, yeah, I've already seen it.
这在它走红之前，所以他们认出了它，是吗？
This was before it was a hit, so they recognized it, did they?
他们知道这首歌。
They knew it.
你知道，当你签合同的时候。
Well, you know when you sign a contract.
我签了大约三年的合同，他们知道一定能收回这笔钱，而且多得多得多。
I had about a three year contract and they knew they would get that money back and much, much, much more.
就在大约两周前，我还保留着那张支票，拿给他们看，说：‘瞧，这里。’
I kept that check about two weeks ago I showed them to tell them about, look here.
你看，我拿到了2000美元，我的房东说：‘也许，你最好把它存进银行。’
You see, I got $2,000 And there my landlord, she said, maybe please maybe put it in the bank.
那男孩把支票存了。
The boy put that check-in.
什么时候存到银行的？
What what time in the bank?
但这首歌大受欢迎。
But it was a great hit.
我的意思是，《Boogie Killen》卖了一百万张，然后啊，
I mean, Boogie Killen sold a million and then Oh,
一百万张甚至更多。
a million or more.
《In the Mood》再次...
In the mood, again after
《In the Mood》卖出了很多，那首大热曲。
In the mood sold in in mood for the big one.
所以
So
你当时可是大牌人物了。
you were you were in the big time.
我当时可是大牌人物了。
I was in the big time.
是的。
Yeah.
现在跟我说说第四张唱片吧。
Tell me about record number four now.
那是什么？
What's that?
它让我被BB震撼了。
It shook me by BB.
我超爱这首歌。
I love it.
我只能说，他是最伟大的音乐人之一，我肯定要让他和我一起搞点大事。
All I can say, he's one of the greatest and I'm definitely gonna have him out doing the devil with me.
你让我心动，宝贝。
You shook me, baby.
你整晚都让我心动不已。
You shook me all night long.
你一直让我心动，宝贝。
You kept on shaking me, baby.
真够带感的。
What a funky.
那是B。
That was B.
B。
B.
国王与我的流亡者约翰·李·胡克，还有你让我心动。
King with my castaway, John Lee Hooker, and you shook me.
你1956年推出了《Dimples》，1962年推出了《Boom Boom》，这两首歌在英国都大获成功。
You made the record Dimples in '56 and Boom Boom in '62, both of which were huge in The UK.
巨大。
Huge.
巨大。
Huge.
巨大。
Huge.
然后你搬来伦敦住了，我想是吧，
And you came over to live in London, I think,
是的，大概一年半左右，差不多是那样。
Yes, the about a year and a half, something like that.
那时候是这样吗？
Was it like then?
意思是？
Mean it
什么？
was What?
在哪儿，不是吗
Where at, wasn't
就在那儿，那是六十年代最热门的地方。
It was where it was at, it was the place to be in the sixties.
那就是最热门的地方。
That was the place to be.
我住在牛津街楼上，一家服装店上面。
I lived on Oxford Street upstairs, over a clothing store.
那是伦敦最热门的地方。
That was the place to be in London.
我刚去那边的时候，总统来了城里，但每个人都在传唱我的歌。
When I come over there, it would just let the President come into town, but everybody was doing my stuff over there.
哈里·伯顿、佐治亚·费恩，他们中的一些人也在传唱我的歌。
Harry Burton, Georgia Fain, some of them I was doing my stuff over.
动物和石头。
The animals and the stones.
那个，还有那个，是的。
The and the yeah.
军队正在赶来。
The army were coming.
是的。
Yeah.
当我过去的时候，就像一块宝石降临一样。
And when I come over there, was just like a piece of jewel coming over.
我和埃里克经常到处跑，埃里克·伯顿，我们总是一起混，晚上参加派对，通宵达旦，去Q俱乐部。
And me and Eric used to run around, Eric Burton, we used to hang out together, go to parties at night party all night and go to the Q Club.
他们直到十二点才回家，然后接着过白天。
They went home till twelve, go on to the day.
这男孩被禁足在泳池里时，我感到无聊，那是什么，其中一块石头吗？
I'm bored when this boy got grounded in the pool, what is it, one of the stones?
布莱恩·琼斯？
Brian Jones?
是的。
Yeah.
他被禁足的时候我感到无聊。
I'm bored when he got grounded in
在泳池里。
the pool.
但你也认识鲍勃·迪伦，对吧？
But you also knew Bob Dylan, didn't you?
哦，是的，第一次我就让他上了舞台。
Oh yeah, on the first one I put him on the bandstand.
真的吗？
Did you?
就在格蒂，纽约市第四街西11号的民间城市。
Right there in Gertie, Folk City in New York City, 11 West 4th Street.
鲍勃当时没什么事，就在我公寓里闲逛。
Bob wasn't doing anything, hanging around in my apartment.
有一晚，我让他上台来归还我的乐队。
One night I got him on the bandstand to return my band.
阿尔伯特·德罗斯曼听了之后，就签下了巴布。
Albert Drosman heard him and he signed Barb up.
所以那时你就在那里，你知道的，在那些重要的年份里，与当时顶尖的音乐人交往。
So there you were, you know, through those important years rubbing shoulders with the leading players of the time.
你知道，这对我来说比我现在挣到的任何钱都更有意义，多西尔。
You know, that meant more than me than any money I got right now, the Dosier.
我挣到的任何钱。
Any money I got.
为什么？
Why?
因为你开心吗？
Because you were happy?
我很开心。
I was happy.
这对你来说意义重大，忍不住一次次重温那些时光。
That means a lot to you, can't but relive them.
我们再听点音乐吧。
Let's have some more music.
哦，斯蒂芬·雷。
Oh, Stephen Ray.
斯蒂芬·雷·沃恩。
Stephen Ray Vaughn.
我非常钦佩他。
I admired him so much.
那个抱着吉他的年轻小伙子，演奏着蓝调。
Young man with the guitar, the blues.
他能模仿任何人，听起来太像阿尔伯特·金了。
He could sound like anybody, he sound too much like Albert King.
哦，他能把吉他弹得那么好，我真的很爱他。
Oh, he could play that guitar, I just loved him.
他走了，但对我来说，他从未离开。
He gone but he ain't gone, to me.
我真希望他能唱着《洪水》出现在德克萨斯，那时所有电线都断了。
I would like to have him singing the flood down in Texas, and all the wires are down.
他在德克萨斯正被洪水淹没。
He's flooding down in Texas.
我喜欢这首圣歌。
I like the hymn.
我很喜欢他必须坐下来即兴演奏的样子。
I love that he had to sit in.
《德克萨斯的洪水》——史蒂维·雷·沃恩，约翰·李·胡克。
Flood Down in Texas, Stevie Ray Vaughan, John Lee Hooker.
你的嗓音和吉他音色都非常独特。
It is a very distinctive sound, both your voice and your guitar.
它非常忧郁。
It's it's very it's very melancholy.
你有没有最喜欢的一种描述它的方式？
Do you have a do you have a favorite way of hearing it described?
人们说它非常纯粹。
It's people say it's very pure.
我无法用语言描述它。
There's no way I can describe it.
这是自动的。
It's automatic.
书上没有写，我不是从书上学到的，它自然而然就来了。
It's not in the book, I didn't get it on the book, it just come natural.
这是我能向你描述它的唯一方式。
It's the only way I can describe it to you.
即使我再跟你聊一个小时，也说不清这一点。
If I talked to you another hour, I couldn't make it no clear on that.
有些人说这和你的手有很大关系，你的手
Some people say it has a lot to do with your hands, which are
不是我的声音。
Not my voice.
而是你的吉他演奏。
But your guitar playing.
你的手非常大，我很想知道。
That your hands are are very big and very I wonder.
你看，你可以把所有手指都交叉起来，就像你现在展示的那样。
You see, you can cross all your fingers you're showing
给我看。
me.
是的。
Mhmm.
你的手指是双关节的吗？
They're double jointed, are they your hands?
是的。
Mhmm.
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有人说，它们简直像是没有骨头一样。
Somebody said it's almost as if there's no bones in them.
它们就像是完全
They're like they're totally
灵活的。
flexible.
灵活的。
Flexible.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我在想。
Like I wonder.
那个。
That.
因此，你能弹奏其他吉他手无法弹奏的和弦吗？
Can you therefore play chords that other guitarists can't?
我其实想做什么就做什么，就凭这副骨头。
I do anything I want to really just the bone.
你总是弹同一把吉他，同一种类型的吉他吗？
And do you always play the same guitar, the same kind of guitar?
不。
No.
有不同的类型。
There are different kinds.
你弹哪种？
What sort do you play?
Epiphone、Gibson、Washburn。
Epiphone, Gibson, Washburn.
人们还说你很难合作，因为你不可预测。
People also say you're difficult to play with because unpredictable.
他们永远猜不到你下一步会做什么。
They never know what you're gonna do next.
没错。
That's right.
我就希望是这样。
I want it to be like that.
如果我想，我当然可以弹得直接又完美，但那样我就不再是约翰·李·胡克了。
I can't play direct if I want to, perfect, but I wouldn't be John Lee Hooker anymore.
如果我想，我当然可以。
I can if I want to.
但如果你愿意，你完全可以让他们跟你合得来。
But you can make it possible for them to play with you if you want.
如果我想，当然完美。
Perfect if I want you.
但你喜欢把他们甩在身后吗？
But you like leaving them behind you?
是的
Yeah.
你不太能读懂很多文字，是吧？
You can't read a lot of writing, can you?
所以你得自己学习歌曲。
So you you you have to take in your learn songs yourself.
对。
Right.
你所有的歌大概都记在脑子里。
All your songs presumably are in your head.
没人给我歌。
Nobody gives me a song.
我自己来。
I do it myself.
所以你唱过的每一首歌都存储在
So so every song that you've ever sung is stored in
你的脑子里？
your head?
我的歌，我是个天才。
Mine, I'm a genius.
没人能为约翰·李·胡克写歌。
Nobody can write for John Lee Hooker.
但你确实为皮特·汤森德的《铁人》录了几首曲子，对吧？
But you did that you did a couple of tracks on for Pete Townsend on the Iron Man, didn't you?
是的。
Yeah.
就是特德·休斯的那首诗。
On the Ted Hughes poem.
他是怎么做的？你刚刚告诉我了，我后来反复听了几次，就记住了，像《大象》这样的歌。
Now how He did you just told me and I just went over it a few times and I got good memories like Elephant.
所以所有歌都在你脑子里？
So it's all in your head?
是的。
Yeah.
第六张专辑。
Record number six.
嗯，埃里克·克莱普顿，是的。
Well, Eric Clapton, yeah.
他一直非常欣赏我，从年轻时就是，我很喜欢那个小伙子，他找到自己的方式的方式。
He's a big fan of mine, always have been when he was and I loved that young man, the way he found it.
我到现在依然喜欢他。
I still do right now.
我希望有一天，如果我跟他一起录专辑的话，你知道的。
I want him one day if I do record with him, you know.
我希望有一天他能出现在我的专辑里。
I want him on my record one day.
我知道他会答应的，只是得找到他，安排好时间。
I know he'll do it, but it's just a matter of finding him and getting the time.
莱拉，那是埃里克·克莱普顿在德里克和多米诺斯乐队时期的事。
Leila from Eric Clapton when he was with Derek and the Dominoes.
女性，我们开头说过，约翰·李·胡克在你的生活中扮演了重要角色。
Women, we said at the beginning John Lee Hooker played an important part in your life.
你结过几次婚？
How many times have you been married?
三次，太多了。
Three times too many.
三次。
Three times.
发生了什么事？
What happened?
她们都希望你停止演奏，是吗？
They all wanted you to stop playing, did they?
你知道的，你一定读过这些。
You know that, you must have read about that.
是的。
Yeah.
你总是奔波在路上，先生们，我身边的女性们，她们和其他女人一样，对音乐家的生活方式、他们如何放纵自己并不了解。
Well you're on the road all the time and great thing, gentlemen, a woman of mine that you are there with other women and they didn't read about musicians, how they do, how they play around.
我并不是个圣人，但我爱她们，可她们希望我放弃音乐，去干一份正经工作。
I wasn't an angel but I loved them I was but they wanted me to quit playing music and just get a regular job.
我说：不行，老天爷。
I said, No way, old they.
我绝不会那样做。
I will not do that.
于是她们离开了。
And so they split.
她们这么做，其实给了我一个巨大的帮助。
Really they did me a big favor when they did it.
她们说我不能做这个，不能做那个，不能写作，不能思考。
I couldn't do this, I couldn't do that, I couldn't write, I couldn't think.
这样我才能思考。
This way I can think.
就像我跟你说的，我是个天才。
Like I told you, I'm a genius.
蓝调不在书里。
Don't need The Blues is not in a book.
它不在纸上。
It's not in on paper.
它就在这里，在这里。
It's here and here.
但现在你没有妻子了。
But you've got no wife now.
没有妻子你反而更快乐，
You're happier without one,
哦，是的。
Oh yeah.
你说话时很有热情。
You said that with enthusiasm.
是的。
Oh yeah.
如果我有他们，情况也会是一样的。
Well it would be the same thing if I had them.
那会某种程度上阻碍我。
It would kind of stopping me.
我已经退休了，现在也不会有什么影响。
Well I'm already retired and I wouldn't make any difference now.
那你的孩子呢？
What about your children?
你有几个孩子？
How many children have you got?
八个，全都有。
Eight and all.
八个。
Eight.
他们中有一个是牧师，我们说过。
One of them is a preacher we've said.
他们中有吗
Is there any of them
在机器人里。
in The robot.
音乐，哦，扎基亚。
Music Oh Zakia.
我女儿叫扎基亚。
My daughter called Zakia.
她很好。
She's good.
她做什么工作？
What does she do?
唱歌。
Sing.
她还是个不错的作家。
And she's a good writer too.
但她唱的是蓝调，是吗？
But she sings the blues, does she?
是的。
Oh, yeah.
她继承了
She's inherited
蓝调。
the blues.
嗯，不是我那种蓝调，但她确实唱。
Well, not like my kind of blues, but she sings.
而你拥有成功的所有标志。
And you you have all the trappings of success.
你有好几处房产，还有加长林肯轿车，还有定制车牌，而且
You've got several homes and you've got stretch limos and personalized number plates and
是的。
Oh, yeah.
你都知道这些。
You know all that.
这些能给你带来多少快乐呢？
How much pleasure does all that give you?
我的意思是，你说钱对你并不重要，但是
I mean, you say money isn't important to you but
不，真的不重要。
No, it ain't.
人才和友谊。
People, friendship.
你今年75岁了吧？
You're 75 this year aren't you?
你平时怎么找乐子？
How do you have fun?
你的想法是？
What's your idea of?
我怎么找乐子？
How do I have fun?
是的。
Yeah.
我是个棒球迷，喜欢买汽车，喜欢看电视，也喜欢女人。
I'm a baseball nut and I love buying cars, love TV, and women.
只要不是老婆就行？
As long as they're not wives?
对，没错。
Right, yeah.
你知道吗，巡演的音乐人走在路上时，他们跟那些女人说的都是，他只在乎这些
You know what reputation musician got on the road, if he's on the road, and they're telling these women that's all he's
嗯，通常都很准确，是的。
Well, it's usually accurate, yeah.
你很准确，是的。
You accurate, yeah.
跟我讲讲你的第七张专辑吧。
Tell me about your seventh record.
阿尔伯特·金，短锯。
Albert King, close cut saw.
他是我的偶像。
He's my main man.
如果我出去演出，肯定希望他也在现场。
If I was out there, definitely would want him out there.
嗯，我用唱机播放过他的音乐。
Well, I did with my turntable to play
那是阿尔伯特·金和
And that was Albert King and
Crosscut Albert King，这把横切锯锯木头特别轻松，你都感觉不到。
Crosscut Albert King, the Crosscut Saw cut your wood so easy that you never know.
我们马上就要送你去一个荒岛了。
So we're going to send you to this desert island in a few minutes time.
你愿意抛下所有人和一切，独自一人待在荒岛上吗？
Do you like the idea of leaving everybody and everything behind and being alone on a desert island?
我不是因为你们问了我才这么说的。
Well, I'm not saying it because you asked me that.
是的。
Yes.
如果那里没有狼、没有面板、没有狗，我真的很想待在那里，只带着我的音乐和一些食物。
If if if there's no wolves and panels and dogs out there, I would love to be out there just mean my music and some food.
你不用想太久，但这是个好主意。
You can think not too long but that's a good idea.
但如果你真的被困在那里很长时间，蓝调音乐能帮到你吗？
But if you were really stranded there for a long time, the blues help you?
它们会对你有帮助吗？
Would they help you for you?
哦，当然了。
Oh definitely.
除了蓝调，别的都不行。
Nothing else but the blues.
当然，它会帮助我。
Definitely it'll help me.
一些蓝调，再加上一些食物。
Some blues and some food.
把你刚才放的那些唱片全都放一遍。
All of them records you played, play them.
就坐在那儿，弹蓝调。
Just sit there, play the blues.
我想知道，作为最后几位原始大师之一，你是否感到某种责任？
I wonder if you feel a certain responsibility as being one of the the last original greats.
你觉得，我的意思是，每个人都在
Do you feel you know, I mean, everybody's
现在都暖和起来了吧？
warm now, aren't they?
我不敢说自己是最后一个，但我算是倒数第二个了。
I wouldn't say I'm the last, but I'm next to the last.
BB非常了不起。
BB is pretty great.
当然。
Sure.
除了你和B.B.金，就没几个人了。
Well, there's you and BB King, but there aren't many others.
没错。
That's right.
没别人了。
No others.
你有没有觉得某种程度上有一种责任感？
Do you do you feel a responsibility somehow?
你
Do you
感觉？没有。
feel No.
我给了很多。
You I give in a lot.
我不觉得有任何责任。
I don't feel no responsibility.
我已经把所有痕迹都抹掉了。
I have covered all tracks.
但你并没有停止工作。
But you don't stop working.
当你想演奏的时候，你还是会经常演奏。
You still play quite a lot when you feel like it.
是的。
Yeah.
当我有心情的时候。
When I feel like it.
我不需要被强迫去演奏。
I'm not don't don't be obligated to play.
对。
No.
我想什么时候演奏就什么时候演奏。
I call my own shots when I want to.
你喜欢在演奏的时候享受其中。
You enjoy playing when play.
嗯，我会演奏，我也享受这个过程。
Well, I play, I enjoy.
还有人说，你很可能在舞台上与你的造物主相遇。
And there are those who said that that probably that's that's where you'll meet your maker on the stage.
你可能会死在舞台上。
You'll probably die on the stage.
这个想法吸引你吗？
Does does that idea appeal?
很可能就是这样。
It probably will.
在舞台上，也在家里，伴随着音乐，遇见你的造物主。
Meet some maker on the on the stage and in my house with the music.
你永远不会完全从蓝调中退休。
You you you never retire completely from the blues.
你只是不再巡演了。
You just retire off the road.
你总会有一种想要出去做点什么的冲动。
You always get that urge to go out and do a little something.
会有一种冲动，穿上蓝调风格的衣服，走上台，听点蓝调，感觉良好，跳上台去拿起麦克风。
Get that urge to get up and go around to wear some blues clothes and get up there and say, hear some blues and feel good, jump up there and grab the mic.
看看有没有什么推着你从椅子上站起来。
And see if there's something pushing you out your chair.
一眨眼你就上台了，把麦克风给我。
First thing you know you first thing you know you're up there, give me this mic.
你都不记得自己是怎么上去的，但你就在那儿，把麦克风给我。
You don't know how you got there, but you're there, give me the mic.
你知道吗，我喜欢那种旧旧的小衣服。
And you know one thing, I like those small old clothes.
我不喜欢那种又大又宽的衣服。
Don't like no big, big, huge clothes.
我喜欢那种小夜总会，周围都是人，欢呼雀跃。
Like the little small nightclub with everybody around you, hooping and hollering.
那就是我的出身之地。
That's where that's where I come from.
说说你的上一张专辑吧。
Tell me about your last record.
鲍比·布兰德？
Bobby Bland?
天哪。
Oh, boy.
这个人做的每一件事，都让我浑身发冷，就像
Everything that man do, it chills me like
他有那个男孩。
He's got that boy.
他有那个男孩，那个
He got that boy that
我不知道他从哪儿学来的。
I don't know where he got it.
我想他跟我一样。
Get I guess he like me.
他不知道他的灵感来自我，就像我不知道我的灵感来自哪儿一样。
He don't know where he got it from my own, where I got mine from.
但他确实有那个男孩。
But he has got that boy.
但他越老，就越温和。
But the older he get, the mellow he'd get.
博比·布兰德先生。
Mister Bobby Bland.
播放那首
Play that
缓缓下行，带着
Going down slow with
博比先生。
mister Bobby.
我叫他博比·布兰德先生。
I call him mister Bobby Bland.
博比·布兰德先生。
Mister Bobby Bland.
如果你只能从这八张唱片中选一张，必须挑出最喜爱的一张，你会选哪一张？
Now if you could only take one of all those eight records, if you had to choose one favorite out of the eight, which one would it be?
就是那一张，我觉得。
That one there, I think.
鲍比·布兰德。
Bobby Bland.
他刚说，但谁？
He just said, but who?
对他来说，你认为他是最伟大的吗？
He's the greatest for you, is he?
嗯，他可能被很多人接受，但我认为这个人随着时间的推移越来越出色。
Well, he ain't he may have been delivered to a lot of people, but I make my that man so much down to the years.
别去读那些歌词，但世界上的人都觉得它们很棒。
Don't even read them, but the world read them is good.
别搞错了。
Don't be wrong.
但你得有个偏爱。
But you gotta have a favor.
根据我们的规则，你也可以带一本书到这个荒岛上，但我知道你不读书。
Now you're allowed according to our rules to take a book to this desert island as well, but I know you don't read.
但有没有
But is there any
嗯，有些东西我可以。
Well, some things I can.
有没有哪种书是你想带的？
Is there any kind of book you'd like to take?
一本有很多图片、里面有个漂亮女人的书。
Book with a lot of pictures with one pretty women in it.
好的。
Okay.
你还可以带一件奢侈品？
And you're allowed one luxury?
我的吉他。
My guitar.
当然。
Of course.
还有呢？
What else?
嗯，你想要我，你知道的。
Well, you want me, you know.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我的意思是，你还可能会拿什么别的东西呢？
I mean, what else would you take but
你的音乐。
your My music.
我不用问就知道。
I didn't need to ask.
你的音乐就在你脑子里。
Your music's in your head.
没错。
Right.
你带吉他只是为了享受。
You take your guitar for your luxury.
我没什么可带的，除了食物。
Ain't nothing else I could take, but I take food.
不。
No.
你不可能拥有别的东西。
You can't have anything else.
你带着吉他，就会挨饿，但你拥有蓝调。
You take your guitar, you starve, but you got the blues.
那么，你能在外面不吃东西待多久？
Well, how long could you stay out there without food?
不会太久。
Not long.
但你会拥有你的音乐，约翰·李·胡克。
But you'd have your music, John Lee Hooker.
非常感谢你让我们聆听了你的《荒岛唱片》。
Thank you very much indeed for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.
不客气，我会在祈祷中见到你。
You're welcome and I'll see you in my prayer.
您正在收听来自《荒岛唱片》档案的播客。
You've been listening to a podcast from the Desert Island Discs archive.
如需收听更多播客，请访问 bbc.co.uk/radiofour。
For more podcasts, please visit bbc.co.uk/radiofour.
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