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大家好，我是劳伦·拉弗恩，欢迎收听BBC第四电台的《荒岛唱片》节目。
Hello, I'm Lauren Laverne and this is the Desert Island Discs podcast from BBC Radio four.
每周我都会邀请嘉宾选择八首曲目、一本书和一件奢侈品，假设他们被流放到一座荒岛上时可以带在身边。
Every week I ask my guests to choose the eight tracks, book and luxury, that they'd want to take with them if they were cast away to a desert island.
由于版权原因，本节目中的音乐片段比原始广播版要短，但您可以在BBC Sounds上找到包含更长音乐版本的节目。
For rights reasons, the music's shorter than on the original broadcast, but you can find a version with longer music tracks on BBC Sounds.
听众还能比其他人提前28天收听到节目。
Listeners will also get access to episodes twenty eight days earlier than everyone else.
希望您收听愉快。
I hope you enjoy listening.
本周的嘉宾是作家玛格丽特·阿特伍德，她是全球最受赞誉的作家之一。
My castaway this week is the writer Margaret Atwood, one of the most critically acclaimed authors in the world.
她曾两次获得布克奖，自1961年以来，她出版了诗歌、短篇小说、儿童读物、散文、歌剧脚本，当然还有她的小说，包括《猫眼》《别名格蕾丝》《盲刺客》以及1985年的《使女的故事》，这部作品在当今政治极化的时代重新获得了深刻的现实意义。
She's won the Booker Prize twice and since 1961 has published poetry, short stories, children's books, essays, the libretti to operas, and of course her novels, including Cat's Eye, Alias Grace, The Blind Assassin, and nineteen eighty five's The Handmaid's Tale, which has gained a new resonance in our politically polarized times.
在华盛顿妇女游行中，人们举着标语写着‘让玛格丽特·阿特伍德的小说再次成为现实’，但正如她所指出的，吉勒德这个反乌托邦世界中发生的一切，实际上都曾在我们现实世界中发生过。
Placards at the Women's March in Washington bore the legend make Margaret Atwood fiction again, though, as she points out, everything that takes place in the dystopian setting of Gilead has in fact already happened in the world we live in.
她出生于第二次世界大战爆发后几周，她说这让她对极权主义政权的兴起与衰落产生了兴趣。
She was born just weeks after the outbreak of World War II and says that gave her an interest in totalitarian regimes and their rise and fall.
她还从小就对自然世界有深刻的认识，并对所处的社会保持一种批判性的距离。
She also had an early appreciation of the natural world and a critical distance on the society she was part of.
她的父亲是一位昆虫学家，全家每年有八个月住在加拿大的森林里，以便他进行研究。
Her father was an entomologist, and the family lived in the Canadian woods for eight months of the year while he pursued his research.
这为创造力提供了肥沃的土壤，也很好地锻炼了作为荒岛流放者的生活能力。
Fertile ground for a creative imagination and good practice for life as a castaway too.
她说，每位作家至少是两个个体：一个活着的人，一个写作的人。
She says every writer is at least two beings, the one who lives and the one who writes.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，欢迎你。
Margaret Atwood, welcome
来到荒岛唱片节目。
to Dessa Island Discs.
非常高兴能来到这里。
Very pleased to be here.
我应该说欢迎回来。
I should say welcome back.
这是你第二次来这座岛了，玛格丽特。
Second trip to the island for you Margaret.
玛格丽特：是的，没错。
Margaret Yes, it is.
所以我这次有备而来。
So I'm coming prepared.
GG：你知道自己要面对什么了。
GG: You know what you're in for.
我们从这种双重性说起吧，玛格丽特，那个活着的你和那个写作的你。
Let's start with that duality Margaret, the two of you, the one who lives and the one who writes.
这两个人有多不同？
How different are those two people?
GG：嗯，我觉得这是一种医生。
GG: Well I think it's a Doctor.
杰基尔和海德式的关系。
Jekyll and Mr.
这种安排。
Hyde arrangement.
所以这个海德，
So the Mr.
就是那个作家。
Hyde, that would be the writer.
而且我是个和善的医生。
And I'm kindly Doctor.
杰基尔。
Jekyll.
GG：所以现在在这儿的是你。
GG: So that's who's here
今天？
today?
就是那个。
The one.
当你扮演海德女士时，这意味着你也在进入另一种生活吗？
And when you are being Ms.
你是否会抛下日常的琐事和烦恼？
Hyde, does that mean you're kind of stepping into another life too?
你是否抛下了平凡的日常和忧虑？
Do you leave your ordinary routines and cares behind?
我认为每个作家在创作中期都会这样，就像那样。
I think every writer does that when they're in mid right as it were.
然而，总会有一些打断。
So however, there are interruptions.
你必须能够迅速地来回切换，尤其是当你身处家庭之中时。
You have to be able to shift back and forth pretty quickly especially if you're in the midst of a family.
所以我曾在写作室的门上贴了一块牌子，写着‘请勿打扰’，但从来没人在意过。
So I did have a sign on my writing door that said Do Not Disturb that nobody ever paid any attention to.
玛格丽特，你仍然在出版作品，并且依然非常努力地工作。
Well Margaret, you are still publishing and still working very hard.
多年来，你被无数次问及何时会写一本回忆录，而你总是说永远不会写，但你最近终于松口了。
Having been asked many times over the years when you were going to write a memoir and always saying you never would, you recently gave in.
我想知道这个过程对你来说是怎样的。
I wonder how the process was for you.
回顾你的一生，并与我们所有人分享，感觉如何？
How was it looking back at your life and sharing it with the rest of us?
那么，什么是回忆录呢？
Well what is a memoir?
它不是自传。
It's not an autobiography.
它也不是带有脚注、大量历史研究之类的传记。
It's not a biography with footnotes and you know lots of historical research and so forth.
回忆录就是你所记得的东西。
A memoir is what you remember.
如果你想想自己记得的事情，通常都是一些你做的蠢事，或者别人做的蠢事。
And if you think yourself about what you remember, it's usually stupid things you did, stupid things other people did.
你反而记得更清楚。
You remember those even better.
别人对你做的坏事，而不是你做的坏事。
Bad things people did to you, not so much bad things you did.
你往往会压抑那些记忆。
You tend to repress those.
还有那些意想不到的高光时刻、惊喜、濒死体验和灾难。
And high points unexpected ones, surprises and near death experiences and catastrophes.
到了我这个年纪，就是身边的人离世。
And then at my age people dying.
你会记得这些。
You remember that.
今天，玛格丽特，你正在与我们分享你的音乐。
You're sharing your music with us today, Margaret.
音乐在你的生活中扮演着什么角色？
What role does music play in your life?
你写作时会听音乐，或者会思考你的角色会喜欢什么样的音乐吗？
Are you someone that writes listening to music or thinks about the music that your characters would enjoy?
我听很多音乐，但写作时不会听，因为一旦听到音乐，我就不得不专注去听。
I listen to a lot of music but not when I'm writing because if I hear music, I have to listen to it.
所以我不能只让音乐作为背景音。
So I can't just have background music.
那么，我们先从你今天的第一张唱片开始吧，玛格丽特·阿特伍德。
Let's get started with your first disc today then, Margaret Atwood.
第一张唱片：你打算让我们听什么，为什么选择把它带到你的荒岛？
Disc number one: What are
我们待会儿要听什么，为什么你要把它带到荒岛上？
we going to hear and why are you taking it to your desert island?
我试着从每个年代挑选一些作品，毕竟现在已经有很多个年代了。
Well I tried to pick something from each decade and there are quite a few decades by now.
所以，我现在回到了1940年代。
So here I am in the 1940s.
战争仍在继续。
The war is still on.
我母亲说，那时候还没有幼儿园。
My mother said there weren't any kindergartens at that time.
你知道战争时期的物资短缺。
You know the war shortage.
于是她送我去密歇根北部苏圣玛丽的皮克林舞蹈班。
So she sent me to Ms.
皮克林舞蹈班在苏圣玛丽，位于苏必利尔湖以北。
Pickering's dance class in Sault Ste.
苏圣玛丽位于苏必利尔湖以北。
Marie north of Lake Superior.
在这场舞蹈演出中，我们学了两支舞，其中一支需要穿荷兰传统服装。
And for this dance recital we learned two dances, one being one involving Dutch outfits.
战争期间，荷兰人和加拿大人关系非常密切，他们的王室在渥太华度过了那段时光。
Dutch and Canadians were very close during the war and their royal family spent their time in Ottawa.
所以我们两人一组，打扮成小荷兰女孩。
So we were dressed up as little Dutch girls in pairs.
我们用胳膊做出风车的样子。
We made windmills out of our arms.
我们先把胳膊倾斜成一个方向，然后像那样交换，制造出风车的效果。
We slanted our arms one way and then we switched like that giving a windmill effect.
所以我有一张那时的照片。
So I have a picture of that.
我没有你即将听到的那段表演的照片，因为他们拍了，但我的头顶被切掉了。
I don't have a picture of the one you're about to hear because they took one but my top of my head is cut off.
切掉了。
Off.
而那套服装我们穿的是小水手服，配有蓝色或红色的镶边。
And for that we wore little sailor suit outfits with either blue or red trim.
我的是红色的。
Mine had red.
我们随着你即将听到的旋律跳了踢踏舞。
And we did a tap dance to the tune you're about to hear.
我们三个人站在装饰成鼓状的圆形奶酪箱上，跳起了踢踏舞。
And three of us stood on round cheese boxes decorated like drums and did our tap dancing up there.
这首曲子是《锚已起航》。
And the tune is Anchors Away.
听起来真可爱，玛格丽特。
Sounds adorable, Margaret.
不过你如今并不排斥跳舞吧。
You're not averse to a dance these days though.
我的意思是，不久前你还在医院时，网上跳舞的视频在TikTok上火了。
I mean went viral on TikTok not that long ago for dancing online when you were still in hospital.
让我告诉你，海洛因和芬太尼的组合会让人有点兴奋。
Let me say that a combination of heroin and fentanyl gives you a little bit of an upper.
哦，是的。
Oh yeah.
我经历过。
I've been there.
我明白。
I understand.
你不明白。
No you don't.
是的，那是安装起搏器。
Yes it was a pacemaker being put in.
就是这么回事。
That's what it was.
只是为了让大家放心。
Just to assure everyone.
嗯。
Yeah.
但我们当时在康复中跳舞。
But we were dancing in recovery.
当然。
Absolutely.
为什么不呢？
And why not?
为什么不呢？
And why not?
非常欢快，很有战时气氛。
Very jolly, very wartime.
美国海军乐队起锚了。
Anchors away the US Navy band.
所以，玛格丽特，我们从头说起吧。
So Margaret, let's go back to the beginning.
你于1939年在加拿大渥太华出生，是卡尔和玛格丽特的三个孩子中的第二个。
You were born in Ottawa, Canada, 1939, the second of three children to Carl and Margaret.
在你的回忆录中，你写道你的存在源于一只巨大的绿色毛毛虫。
Now in your memoir, you write that you existence to a large green caterpillar.
能跟我多讲讲这个吗？
Tell me more about that.
嗯，我在回忆录末尾的附录中收录了我父亲晚年时写的一段文字，讲述他是如何开始的。
Well I did include as an appendix at the end of my memoir something that my dad wrote when he was fairly old about how he got started.
他来自加拿大新斯科舍省非常非常偏远的乡村地区。
And he came from very, very, very backwoods rural, rural, rural Nova Scotia.
他描述了自己步行上学，因为那时他们要走好几英里去学校，并且看到了一只巨大的绿色毛毛虫。
And he describes walking to school because they walked miles to school and seeing a large green caterpillar.
他把它带回家了。
And he took it home.
他给它做了一个小笼子。
He made it a little cage.
他用树叶喂养它，它最终变成了一只美丽的飞蛾。
He fed it leaves and it turned into a beautiful moth.
这是一种我们称之为 Cecropia 蛾的昆虫。
It was something we call a Cecropia moth.
非常漂亮。
Very gorgeous.
然后他又找到了另一种，变成了月蛾，更加美丽。
And then he found another kind and it turned into a Luna moth, even more beautiful.
正是这件事让他迷上了昆虫学。
And that's what hooked him on entomology.
所以，如果他没有看到那只毛毛虫，他的人生轨迹就会完全不同，也就不会遇见我妈妈，我也就不会存在。
So had he not seen that caterpillar, he would have taken some other path in life, never met my mother and I would not exist.
那他们俩是怎么认识你妈妈的呢？
And how did the two of them meet your mom and
如果你读过《绿山墙的安妮》，就会知道在那个年代，他们会招募青少年去单间学校当老师。
Well if you've read Anne of Green Gables you know that in those days they enlisted teenagers to go and teach in one room school houses.
他们俩都做过这件事。
And both of them did this.
我母亲来自一个更富裕的家庭。
My mother was from a more upmarket family.
她的父亲是一位乡村医生，而不是那种偏远地区的木匠。
Her father was a country doctor rather than a really backwoods shingle maker.
所以他们在新斯科舍省特鲁罗的一所名为师范学校的机构相遇了。
So they met at something called the Normal School in Truro, Nova Scotia.
师范学校一直让我感到困惑。
Normal School had always baffled me.
你去那里是为了学习如何变得正常吗？
Did you go there to learn to be normal?
我父亲看到我母亲从特鲁罗师范学校的扶手滑下来，心里想：就是她了，我要娶她。
My father saw my mother sliding down the banister of the Truro Normal School and thought to himself, That is the woman I will marry.
就是她。
That's the one.
他确实娶了她。
And he did.
在你最早的童年岁月里，家人一年中超过一半的时间都生活在魁北克北部的森林中。
In your earliest years, so the family spent more than half of the year living in the forests of Northern Quebec.
跟我多讲讲那种在大自然中成长的经历吧。
Tell me more about that upbringing onto canvas.
那是什么样的感觉？
What was it like?
没有电。
No electricity.
没有自来水。
No running water.
你知道什么是厕所吗？
Do you know what an outhouse is?
知道。
Yeah.
厕所。
Toilets.
森林里的一间小屋，下面有个洞。
A little house in the woods with a hole underneath it.
照明用的是煤油灯、蜡烛，或者那时手电筒已经发明了。
And lighting would be kerosene lamps or candles or flashlights had been invented by then.
所以你们会把它们叫做火把。
So you would call those torches.
没有学校，没有电视。
And no school, no television.
反正也没有。
There wasn't any anyway.
有收音机，但很难收到什么节目。
Radio a bit though it was hard to really get anything.
没有剧院，没有电影。
No theatre, no movies.
你再说一样东西，那里也都没有。
Name something else and there wasn't any of that either.
但那里有很多书。
But there were lots of books.
而且总是有绘画和写作的材料。
And there were always drawing and writing materials.
因此，书籍自然成了首选的艺术形式。
So of course books became the art of choice.
我在想，你妈妈当时从扶手滑下去，她在森林里过着怎样的生活。
I'm wondering about you know your mum sliding down that banister and what she made of life in the woods.
GG：基本上，她喜欢骑马、速滑、滑雪以及一般的户外生活。
GG: Basically she liked riding horses, speed skating, skiing and the outdoor life generally.
哦，所以她一定
Oh so she must
很喜欢。
have loved it.
她确实很喜欢。
She did.
你要走很远才能找到愿意带着两个小孩去树林里的人。
You would have had to go fairly far afield to find somebody willing to go up to the woods with you with two small children.
但她实际上很喜欢，因为那里不用戴帽子。
But she in fact loved it because there were no hats.
你不需要戴帽子。
You didn't have to wear a hat.
你不需要戴白手套。
You didn't have to wear white gloves.
家务活很少。
Housework was minimal.
她是个出色的划独木舟能手和捕鱼好手，不过她和我爸爸有个约定。
And she was a good canoeist and good fisherwoman although she had a deal with my dad.
她负责抓鱼。
She would catch them.
他负责清理鱼。
He could clean them.
我想我们最好听听你的第二张唱片，玛格丽特·阿特伍德。
I think we'd better hear your second disc, Margaret Atwood.
它将要
What's it going
是什么？
to be?
我们将进入50年代。
We're going to move to the 50s.
摇滚乐来了。
So here comes rock and roll.
猫王在1955年首次大放异彩，但他并不是第一个。
Elvis makes his big debut in 1955 but he wasn't the first.
这是我最喜欢的一首老歌，《Hearts of Stone》，由The Charms演唱。
So here's an old favorite of mine called Hearts of Stone by The Charms.
我们正处在点唱机的时代。
And we are in the age of jukeboxes.
所以你可以走进一家小餐馆，在你的小隔间里看到一台点唱机，投币后选择你想听的歌曲。
So you could go into a diner and have a jukebox at your little booth and you could put your money in and select your song that you wanted to hear.
The Charms的《Hearts of Stone》，我的嘉宾玛格丽特·阿特伍德，熟知每一个歌词，跟着一起唱，玛格丽特。
The charms and hearts of stone, my guest Margaret Atwood, knowing every word, singing along there Margaret.
所以你在整整一年的学年里，只在学校待了12岁之前，是这样吗？
So you would have been 12 before you spent a whole year, an academic year, at school, is that right?
没错。
That's correct.
那么森林学校呢？在家里的树林里学习是什么感觉？
So forest school then, what was that like, learning at home in the woods?
你说过，读书和绘画就是一切。
You said books and painting, that was everything.
那就是你度过美好时光的方式——
That was how you spent your Well
我们从学校拿到功课，然后回家完成。
we got the lessons from the school and then did them.
这让我变得非常肤浅。
And it made me a very superficial person.
怎么说？
In what way?
如果你能很快做完，之后就可以做任何你想做的事。
Well if you could do them really fast, then you could do whatever you liked after that.
所以飞快地做完，然后出去翻木头，看看有没有蝾螈。
So whizzing through and then going outside and turning over logs to see if there was a newt.
但你一直在写作，因为你七岁就写了第一本书。
You were writing though because you wrote your first book at the age of seven.
是的，我写了。
Yes I did.
那是关于一只蚂蚁的。
It was about an ant.
这是一堂关于结构的课。
It is a lesson in structure.
蚂蚁的特点是，它们一生中有四分之三的时间什么也不做。
So the thing about ants is they don't do anything for three quarters of their life.
它们是卵。
They're an egg.
什么都没发生。
Nothing happens.
它们是幼虫。
They're a larva.
什么都没发生。
Nothing happens.
它们是蛹，真的什么都没发生。
They're a pupa, really nothing happens.
然后它们长出腿，可以四处移动。
And then they get legs and can move around.
但你知道，要等这么长时间才看到任何行动，真的很漫长。
But you know that's a long time to wait for any action.
这是一个具有挑战性的主角。
It's a challenging protagonist.
我不推荐这本书。
I don't recommend it.
在小说的结尾，这只蚂蚁做了一件从未有蚂蚁做过的事。
And at the end of the novel, the ant does something that no ant has never been known to do.
那是什么？
What was that?
这是一种利他行为。
It's an altruistic act.
它们会为了拯救其他蚂蚁而做出利他行为，但通常不会为了拯救其他生物。
They will do altruistic acts to save other ants but not usually to save anybody else.
而且
And
然后我停止了写作，开始画画。
then I stopped writing and took to drawing.
那对你来说是一个巨大的热情。
And that was a big passion for you.
我想这仍然是你喜欢的事情。
Still is something that you enjoy I think.
我到现在仍然画很多画。
I still do a lot of drawing.
它在我一生中呈现出不同的形式。
It's taken different forms throughout my life.
我为自己的一些书设计了封面。
I did some of my own book covers.
这样更便宜。
It was cheaper.
我至今仍然积极参与我书籍封面的选择。
I'm still very engaged in cover choices for my books.
那你的阅读材料呢？
And what about your reading material?
作为年轻人，你能接触到什么？你喜欢什么？
Know as young person, what were you able to access and what did you enjoy?
什么都看。
Absolutely everything.
家里的任何东西都可以，包括科学书籍和大量带有脊背钥匙孔、眼睛从孔中向外看的谋杀悬疑小说。
So anything in the house and that would include scientific books and a lot of murder mysteries of the kind that had the keyhole on the spine with the eye looking out of it.
那些是戴尔出版社的悬疑小说。
They were Dell mysteries.
我通读了经典作品。
And worked my way through the classics.
我迷上了福尔摩斯。
I was in love with Sherlock Holmes.
科幻小说，比如乔治·奥威尔，我在非常容易受影响的年纪读了他的作品。
Speculative fiction George Orwell whom I read at a very impressionable age.
你最先读的是什么？
What did you read first?
原版是什么？
What was the original?
我十二岁之前就读了《动物农场》。
I read Animal Farm as younger than 12.
我以为它会像《小熊维尼》或《柳林风声》那样。
And I thought it was going to be like Winnie the Pooh, Wind in the Willows.
它让我感到恐惧。
It horrified me.
尤其是那匹马的命运。
Especially The Fate of the Horse.
我对此非常难过。
I was very upset by that.
GG：当我第一次看到它出版的廉价平装本时，我读了《一九八四》。
GG: Then I read nineteen eighty four when it first came out in a cheesy paperback.
从那以后，我就一直对乔治·奥威尔感兴趣。
And I've been interested in George Orwell ever since.
我就在这栋楼外他的雕像旁边拍了张照片。
And I just got my picture taken beside his statue outside this building.
我在想，你小时候读奥威尔的作品。
I'm thinking about you reading Orwell as a young girl.
你说因为出生的时代，你对极权主义政权着迷。
You said that because of the time that you were born, you were fascinated by totalitarian regimes.
了解这种兴衰更替的理念。
Know this idea of the kind of rise and fall.
显然，我们在《1984》中看到了这一点。
And obviously, we see that in 1984.
你知道，书的结尾有一个附录，告诉我们大兄弟、新话等时代已经结束了。
You know, it ends with a postscript that tells us that this time of Big Brother and Newspeak and all that is over.
那一切都过去了。
It's past.
当时的背景是什么样的？你出生在战争初期，整个童年都在战争中度过，对这些有多大的认知？
What was that backdrop like, and how aware were you of it, having been born at the beginning of the war and kind of growing up throughout it?
哦，我觉得非常清楚。
Oh I think very aware.
我的意思是，我们亲身经历了希特勒、墨索里尼、太平洋战争，然后进入了冷战。
I mean we lived through Hitler and Mussolini and the war in the Pacific and then it was a Cold War.
我们对这些都非常清楚。
And we were very aware of that.
所以，是的，这些事情是如何开始的？
So yes, how do these things start?
把它们建立起来需要多快？
How fast does it take to put them into place?
这取决于你在‘长刀之夜’愿意杀死多少人。
Depends how many people you're willing to kill on the night of the long knives.
它们是如何从内部崩溃的。
How they crumble from within.
它们从内部崩溃需要多长时间。
How long it takes them to crumble from within.
以及人们为何会向它们靠拢。
And why people gravitate towards them.
所以这些都让我非常感兴趣，记得我是《世界人权宣言》一代。
So all of great interest to me remember I'm of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Generation.
那是在40年代末出现的。
That comes along at the end of the 40s.
但我是一个趋势和模式的观察者。
But I am an observer of trends and patterns.
玛格丽特，我们
Margaret, let's
来听音乐吧。
go to the music.
这是你今天选的第三首曲子。
It's your third choice today.
给我们讲讲这首曲子吧。
Tell us a little bit about this piece.
我们将演奏奥芬巴赫《霍夫曼的故事》中的巴克尔滚奏。
We're going to do the Barker roll from Offenbach's Tales of Hoffman.
这是我在高中时创作并演出的家政歌剧。
And this is from the home economics opera that I wrote in high school and performed in.
这部作品是关于布料的，对吧？
It was about fabrics, wasn't it?
是的，这部作品是关于布料的。
It was about fabrics, yes.
那位毫无幽默感的老师犯了一个可怕的错误。
The teacher who had no sense of humor I have to say made a terrible mistake.
她把民主带进了家政课堂。
She allowed democracy into the home economics classroom.
这总是有风险的。
Always a risk.
她说我们可以投票选择一个特别项目，她认为我们应该投票决定制作毛绒玩具。
She said that we could vote on a special project and she thought that we should vote for making stuffed animals.
我不想做毛绒玩具，所以我暗中影响了班级，让他们投票选择制作一部家庭经济歌剧，而她不得不允许，因为这是投票结果。
I did not wish to make stuffed animals so I subverted part of the class and got them to vote on a home economics opera and she had to permit it because it was a vote.
她说：好吧，只要它真的与家庭经济有关就行。
And she said, All right, as long as it really was about home economics.
所以故事围绕三种名为Orlan、尼龙和涤纶的面料展开。
So it was about three fabrics called Orlan, Nylon and Dacron.
它们的父亲是老国王C O A L，因为它们都是煤焦油衍生物。
And their father, Old King, C O A L, because they were all coal tar derivatives.
而爱情线索是威廉·伍利爵士，他代表羊毛，却有一个严重的问题。
And the love interest was Sir William Woolley who turns up he was wool and had a terrible problem.
他一洗就会缩水。
He shrank from washing.
于是这个难题通过一种混纺面料得到了解决。
So the dilemma was resolved because a blend was created.
这首歌讲述的是洗衣日，旋律采用了霍夫曼的巴克尔轮舞。
And this song was about laundry day and it was set to Hoffman's Barker Roll.
我在电梯里为加拿大歌剧院的导演理查德·布拉德肖唱了这首歌，他说我彻底毁掉了他对霍夫曼的《巴克罗》的印象。
And I sang it in an elevator to the director of the Canadian Opera Company, Richard Bradshaw, who said I had ruined Hoffman's Barkerow for him forever.
你愿意重现这部歌剧的场景吗？
Would you be averse to conjure up the spectacle of the opera?
嗯
Well
面料需要我们女性，洗涤剂让它们感觉焕然一新。
fabrics need us women, the suds it makes them feel just like new.
叮，叮，叮。
Plink, plink, plink.
白色更白，彩色更鲜艳，呈现出绚丽的色彩。
Whites are whiter, colors are brighter, take on a brilliant hue.
叮，叮，叮。
Plink, plink, plink.
洗的时候别乱搅，别拧别挤。
When you wash them, do not slosh them, do not squeeze or ring.
叮，叮，叮。
Plink, plink, plink.
漂洗时，要在洗衣池里把所有肥皂彻底冲干净。
When you rinse, get all the soap out in the laundry sink.
现在我们要听真正的版本。
Now we're gonna hear the real one.
你的第一部歌剧剧本，太棒了。
Your first libretto, marvelous.
来自奥芬巴赫《霍夫曼的故事》中《巴尔卡拉》的选段，由琼·苏瑟兰演唱，乔·图伦和普拉西多·多明戈伴唱，瑞士罗曼德管弦乐团演奏，理查德·邦宁指挥。
Part of the Barcarelle from Offenbach's Tales of Hoffman sung by Joan Sutherland, Who Get Touren Jo and Placido Domingo with the Orchestra della Suisse Romand conducted by Richard Bonning.
所以，玛格丽特，你最初是先写诗的。
So Margaret, you started writing poetry first.
你曾在校刊上发表作品，之后又在其他刊物上发表，实际上你21岁时就创作了第一本书。
You were published in the school magazine and then other publications, and actually created your first book when you were just 21.
那本书出版后赢得了E.
That was published and went on to win the E.
J.
J.
普拉特奖，那一定非常令人兴奋。
Pratt Medal which must have been so exciting.
那时你对写作有多投入？
How committed were you to writing back then?
你觉得这是一种召唤吗？
Did it feel like a calling?
是的，这是一种召唤，但我并不指望靠写作养活自己。
Yes, it was a calling but I did not expect to be able to support myself doing it.
我得想别的办法。
I would have to think of something else.
关于写作的职业性方面，你知道你写作的目的是什么吗？
And in terms of the vocational aspect of it, you know what were you writing for?
目标是什么？
What was the aim?
你想要改变世界吗？
Did you want to change the world?
你只是想改变人们的思维方式吗？
Did you want to just change how people thought?
不。
No.
我想写不朽的杰作。
Wanted to write deathless masterpieces.
我们正处于审美卓越的时代。
We were in the age of aesthetic excellence.
因此，艺术的道德目的与审美目的之间存在着斗争，这在30年代我们已经讨论得很多了。
So the fight between moral purposes for art which we'd had quite a lot of in the 30s and aesthetic purposes for art.
让我们想想王尔德，以及某种程度上的《了不起的盖茨比》。
Let's think about Oscar Wilde and indeed The Great Gatsby to a certain extent.
所以，是写不朽的杰作，还是让世界变得更好。
So deathless masterpieces versus let's improve the world.
这场争论已经持续了很长时间。
And that has been a fight for a very long time.
那时，我站在了‘不朽杰作’这一边。
So I was on the Deathless Masterpieces side at that point.
你刚十几岁就给自己设下这么高的标准，是不是有点太高了？
That's a high bar to set yourself at you know just out of your teens isn't it?
我当时还是个青少年。
I was still in my teens.
所以从一开始，我就追求不朽杰作。
So from the get go it was Deathless Masterpieces.
是的。
Yes.
但我愿意写些垃圾作品来养活自己。
But I was willing to write rubbish in order to support myself.
我最初的主意是，我买了一本叫《作家市场》的杂志，打算写言情小说，因为这类作品稿酬最高。
My first idea, I got this magazine called Writers Markets and my first idea was that I was going to write true romances because they paid the most.
我确实试过，但我并不擅长这个。
And I did give it a go but I wasn't any good at it.
你得有这方面的天赋，而我觉得那些故事
You have to have a feel for it and I thought they were
太傻了。
too silly.
所以你上了大学。
So you went to university.
你学习了英语、哲学和法语，然后在哈佛开始了研究生学习。
You studied English, philosophy and French and then began your graduate studies at Harvard.
六十年代那里的生活怎么样？
What was life like there in the 60s?
我太老了，当不了嬉皮士。
Well I was too old to be a hippie.
我们这一代人更倾向于存在主义。
Our generation were more of the existentialist persuasion.
而且我们那一代人也是五十年代努力工作的高成就者。
And we were also 50s hardworking overachievers.
所以对我们来说，嬉皮士看起来实在太随意了。
So hippies seemed to us just really too laid back.
但我们以兴趣观察着他们，也看着中年男子戴上爱的珠链、留长发，变得相当尴尬——正如我们现在所说的那样。
But we watched them with interest and we also watched middle aged men put on love beads and grow their hair and really become quite cringe as apparently we say now.
是的，我亲身经历了这一切。
Yeah so I lived through all of that.
但在哈佛研究生院，你并不会做出那种行为。
But you didn't do that kind of behavior at Harvard Graduate School.
那种行为是不会被接受的。
That would not have been viewed.
所以那时仍然很拘谨吗？
So was it still quite buttoned up then?
哦，非常拘谨。
Oh very buttoned.
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是的。
Yes.
非常复古学院风。
Very tweedy.
我读到过，玛格丽特说，你们在那里的时候，女学生不被允许进入拉蒙特图书馆。
I read Margaret that female students weren't allowed into the Lamont Library while you were there.
当时你怎么看待这件事？
What did you make of that at the time?
拉蒙特图书馆里收藏了所有现代诗歌。
The Lamont Library had all the modern poetry in it.
那你们能接触到这些书吗？
And so you can access that?
如果我知道书名，就可以。
If I knew the names of the books, could.
我可以把它们借出来。
I could get them out.
但我不能进去，因为怕打扰到那些专心学习的男生。
But I couldn't go in there because I might be distracting to hard studying male students.
你当时对此有什么看法？
What did you make of that at the time?
嗯，大家都觉得这就是常态。
Well everybody just you know that's how things were.
但我们可以去威德纳图书馆。
But we could all go into Widener Library.
我们不去拉蒙特图书馆读现代诗歌，而是去威德纳图书馆研究巫术和黑魔法。
Instead of going into Lamont and doing modern poetry, we went into Widener and did witchcraft and sorcery.
这难道不是更有用吗？你觉得呢？
Really much more useful don't you think?
我知道后来这在《使女的故事》中派上了用场。
That came in handy for The Handmaid's Tale I know later.
你把一些大楼重新利用在
You repurposed some of the buildings on
我做这件事的时候特别开心。
I had such fun doing that.
跟我讲讲那件事吧。
Tell me about that.
为什么我把故事背景设在哈佛？
Why did I set it at Harvard?
因为当我在那里时，哈佛是自由民主和自由世界思想、以及实验性思维的典范。
Because when I was there Harvard was the epitome of liberal democracy and free world thinking and you know experimental thinking and all of these things.
但它在17世纪起源于新英格兰殖民地的一所神学院，而那些殖民地并非民主政体。
But it began in the seventeenth century as a theological seminary in the New England colonies which were not democracies.
因此，根据每个国家都有其与起源和早期发展相关的基础设施这一理论。
So on the theory that every country has a sort of infrastructure of having to do with its origins and earlier development.
当时那种17世纪的神权政治始终潜伏在表面之下，而如今我们看到它正试图在美国取得绝对权力。
There was always this seventeenth century theocracy lurking underneath the surface and now we see it making an attempt at achieving total power in The United States.
它以前也曾有过几次爆发。
It has had a few outbursts previously.
十九世纪曾发生过一场被称为‘大觉醒’的运动。
There was something called the Great Awakening in the nineteenth century.
但你知道，基督教分裂成了许多不同的教派，根据你身处世界的不同地方，可能会遇到一些相当有趣的基督教分支。
But you get some very well as you know Christianity split off into many different sects and you can get some pretty interesting subsets of Christianity depending where you are in the world.
玛格丽特，我们稍后再谈《使女的故事》。
Margaret, we'll return to The Handmaid's Tale later.
现在，如果你不介意的话，我想听听你的下一张唱片。
For now I want to hear your next disc if you wouldn't mind.
你今天选择的第四张。
Your fourth choice today.
我们现在来到了二十世纪六十年代初。
Now we're in the early sixties.
在书中有一张照片，是我坐在一个叫‘波希米亚大使馆’的地方，那是一家举办艺术表演的咖啡馆。
And in the book there's a picture of me sitting in something called the Bohemian Embassy which was a coffee house where artistic performances took place.
我正听着一位年轻女子坐在高脚凳上弹着吉他唱歌。
And I'm listening to a young woman sitting a stool playing the guitar and singing.
她唱的很可能是首民谣，讲的是一个女孩被谋杀的故事，因为很多民谣都是这类主题。
What she was singing would have been a folk song probably about a girl being murdered because a lot of them were.
她的名字叫西尔维娅·弗里克，后来成为一对著名二人组‘伊恩与西尔维娅’的一员。
And her name was Sylvia Fricker and she became part of a pretty famous later duo called Ian and Sylvia.
我选择的这首歌是他们最著名的歌曲之一，叫《强风》，由他们创作。
And the one I have chosen is one of their most famous songs called For Strong Winds which was written by them.
伊恩与西尔维娅，以及《强风》。
Ian and Sylvia and four strong winds.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，大学毕业后，你第一份工作是市场研究员。
Margaret Atwood, after college, one of your first jobs was as a market researcher.
我认为你在那个职位上的某些经历启发了你的第一部小说《可食用的女人》。
And I think some of those experiences that you had in that role inspired your first novel, The Edible Woman.
跟我讲讲吧。
Tell me about that.
那是我第一部出版的小说。
It was my first novel to be published.
哦，是的。
Oh yes.
有一本你很高兴没出版的，我想。
There was one that you're glad wasn't published I think.
没错。
That's right.
当我还在市场调研公司工作时，我正在写那本没出版的书。
So I was writing that one that didn't get published while I was working at the market research company.
我的工作有些日子并不忙，所以我就会把小说带到办公室，用打字机打出来。
And my job was on some days not very demanding so I'd just take my novel to the office and run it through the typewriter.
我看起来非常忙碌。
I looked very busy.
好的。
Okay.
所以先是第一块煎饼，然后是《可食用的女人》。
So there was the first pancake and then the edible woman.
然后在《可食用的女人》中，我确实用了很多我在市场调研公司的工作经历，其中一些相当奇怪。
Then the edible woman and I certainly used a lot of my market research experiences in it, some of which were quite strange.
什么样的事情？
What kind of thing?
嗯，让我想想。
Well let's see.
我认为我最喜欢的问卷是我的工作之一，我的职责是阅读问卷，确保问题简单易懂，然后进行测试。
Now I think my favorite questionnaire because it was my job to read the questionnaires to make sure the questions could be asked and answered quite simply and then to test them out.
我觉得我最喜欢的是一份长达35页的泻药问卷。
And I think my favorite was the 35 page laxative questionnaire.
35页。
35 pages.
真详细。
That's detailed.
我说
I said
非常详细。
very detailed.
我说没人会愿意做的，因为你得挨家挨户敲门，问这些人这些问题。
I said nobody's going to because you went around and knocked on doors and asked people these questions.
因为人们太无聊了，所以在那个年代他们很乐意回答这些问题。
And because they were so bored, they were quite willing to answer them in those days.
我说人们在前五页之后就会把你赶出去。
I said people are going to kick you out after the first five pages.
他们说没错，但那些坚持完成全部35页的人，才是我们的目标客户。
And they said yes, but those who stay for the full 35 pages, that's our target market.
黄金般珍贵。
Gold dust.
这听起来不像最有可能孕育出其中一部
It doesn't sound like the most likely crucible for one of
首批现代女性主义伟大小说的温床。
the first great modern feminist novels to come out of.
当你写《可食用的女人》时，你觉得自己在写什么？
When you were writing The Edible Woman, what did you think you had on your hands?
你有没有想过它会以这种方式引起人们的共鸣？
Did you think it would connect with people in the way that it did?
没有。
No.
因为我从未想过这些事。
Because I never thought any of those things.
但我写它的时候，第二次女权主义浪潮还没到来。
But I thought I was writing it before second wave feminism hit.
我是在1964到1965年间写的。
I was writing it in nineteen sixty four-twenty five.
当时的出版商把稿子弄丢了好几年。
And the publisher then lost the manuscript for a couple of years.
所以它实际上是在1969年出版的，正好赶上了第二次女权主义浪潮的兴起。
So it was actually published in 1969 just in time for second wave feminism to hit.
所以我收到了两种评论：一种来自不了解第二波女权主义的人，他们认为我是个不成熟、将来会成长的人。
So I got two kinds of reviews: one by people who hadn't heard of second wave feminism and thought I was an immature person who would grow up later.
另一种来自了解第二波女权主义的人，他们认为这是新潮流的一部分。
And the second kind who had heard of it and thought this is part of the new wave.
所以，是的，这很有趣。
So yes that was interesting.
这让你感到欣慰吗？
And was that gratifying to you?
你觉得自己是这场浪潮的一部分吗？
Did you feel part of that wave?
我那时
I was
可能年纪有点大，也可能太加拿大了。
a little too old maybe and possibly a little too Canadian.
但我一直饶有兴致地关注着这一切。
But I watched it with great interest.
我不是发明者。
I didn't invent it.
我并不是纽约和波士顿那群真正将它推上台面的思想家群体中的一员。
I was not part of that crucible of thinkers in New York and Boston that really pushed it to the surface.
不过，你觉得这种局外人的视角多年来对你有帮助吗？
Do you think that outsider perspective has been useful to you though over the years?
你知道，作为作家，天然的视角不就是置身事外、旁观者清吗？
You know it's the writer's natural perspective isn't it to be on the outside looking in?
作为一个加拿大人，当你面对美国时，总是处于局外人的位置。
Well as a Canadian you're always on the outside looking in when it comes to The United States.
这就像一面单向镜。
It is a one way mirror.
他们根本不会从另一边看你，因为他们没必要这么做。
They are not on the other side looking at you much at all because they don't have to be.
玛格丽特，你是什么时候意识到自己可以靠写作谋生的？
When did you realize you could make a living as a writer, Margaret?
有多久？
How long was it?
1972年。
1972.
我1956年就开始了。
I started in 1956.
做过很多不同的工作。
Lots of different jobs.
现在我们说‘谋生’，并不是指沉迷享乐、穿着金丝绒晨袍的日子。
Now when we say make a living, we don't mean rolling in the flesh pots and golden May dressing gowns.
那些都是后来的事了。
That would all come later.
你真是个调皮的人。
You're a very naughty person.
不，我是个守财奴类型的人。
No I'm a Scroogey type of person.
大萧条时期长大的父母。
Parents from the depression.
精打细算。
Pinching of pennies.
如何把糖袋最底部的糖都掏出来。
How to get the sugar out of the very bottom of the sugar sack.
我明白。
I understand.
玛格丽特，该放点音乐了。
Margaret, it's time for some more music.
你今天第五个选择。
Your fifth choice today.
接下来我们要听什么？
What have we got to hear next?
好的。
Alright.
到这个时候，我住在农场里。
By this time I'm living on a farm.
到这个时候，我和格雷厄姆·吉布森住在一起，他是个狂热的唱片听众。
By this time I'm living with Graham Gibson who was a big record listener.
我们经常听的一位歌手是斯坦·罗杰斯，他是一位具有新斯科舍省根源的创作歌手，我们非常喜爱他。
And one of the people that we listened to quite a lot was Stan Rogers who was a singer songwriter with the Nova Scotia roots and we were very fond of him.
不幸的是，他死于一场空难，但在那之前他已经发行了多张唱片，并在当时非常受欢迎。
Unfortunately he died in a plane crash, but not before he put out a number of different records and was very popular at the time.
所以这首歌曲叫《巴雷特的私掠船》，背景设定在美国独立战争时期，当时英国和美国正处于战争状态。
So this one is called Barrett's Privateers and it's taking place during the American Revolution when Britain and America were at war.
当时你可以获得一种叫做‘私掠许可证’的东西，它赋予你袭击美国船只的权利，将一部分战利品上缴王室，其余的归自己所有。
And you could get this thing called a Letter of Marque which gave you the right to be a privateer and go out and raid American ships and give some of the money to the Crown and keep the rest.
这是一首非常悲伤的歌曲，讲述私掠事业最终失败的故事。
So it's a very sad song in which the privateering enterprise fails.
由于我有一位祖先曾是私掠者，所以我决定把这首歌放进来。
And since I had an ancestor who was a privateer, I thought I would put this in.
哦，那一年是1778年。
Oh the year was 1778.
我多希望现在能在谢布鲁克啊。
How I wish I was in Sherbrooke now.
国王签发了一张私掠许可证，给了一艘我见过的最肮脏的船。
A letter of mark came from the king to the scummiest vessel I've ever seen.
该死的，全都该死。
Goddamn them all.
我被告知我们要在海上寻找美国的黄金。
I was told we'd cruise the seas for American gold.
我们不会开枪，也不会流泪。
We'd fire no guns, shed no tears.
但我已是个破碎的人，站在哈利法克斯的码头上，巴雷特私掠船的最后幸存者。
But I'm a broken man on a Halifax pier, the last of Barrett's privateers.
斯坦·罗杰斯的《巴雷特的私掠船》，是你已故伴侣格雷厄姆·玛格丽特·阿特伍德的最爱。
Stan Rogers, Barrett's privateers, a favorite of your late life partner, Graham Margaret Atwood.
所以，玛格丽特，七八十年代是你非常高产的时期。
So Margaret, the late 70s and early 80s were a very productive time for you.
你的作品表现优异，1984年你前往西柏林创作了《使女的故事》，这部作品后来成为现代文学的奠基之作。
Your work was doing really well and in 1984 you spent time in West Berlin writing The Handmaid's Tale, which would become one of the seminal works of modern literature.
我们已经知道，奥威尔从你年幼时起就对你影响深远，而‘1984’这个年份本身的奥威尔式意义必然也是其中的一部分。
We've already heard that Orwell was a huge influence on you from your youngest years and the Orwellian significance of the year must have been part of the picture.
但我很好奇，你当时写作的环境、这座城市的氛围，是如何影响了这部作品的。
But I wonder about where you were writing, the atmosphere of the city and how that fed into the book.
所以，那是1984年。
So it's 1984.
那时的西柏林仍被围墙包围，而这道墙要到1989到1990年才会倒塌。
It is West Berlin still encircled by the wall which was not going to come down until nineteen eighty nine-ninety.
那是一个非常奇特的居住之地。
And it was a very strange place to be living.
每个星期天，东德人都会派出超音速战机飞行，制造轰鸣声，提醒我们他们就在那里。
Every Sunday the East Germans would fly some supersonic jets to make booms just to remind us that they were there.
我们可以很容易地前往东柏林，我们确实经常去。
We could go across into East Berlin which we did fairly easily.
德国人要这么做就困难得多。
The Germans had a lot more trouble doing that.
东柏林非常压抑。
And East Berlin was very, very buttoned down.
所以人们都不敢跟你说话。
So people were afraid to talk to you.
捷克斯洛伐克——我们也去了那里——稍微宽松一些。
Czechoslovakia, which we also went to, was a little looser.
他们愿意跟你说话，但只敢在野外聊，因为其他地方都被窃听了。
They would talk to you but only in a field because everything else was bugged.
波兰——我们造访的第三站——则相当松散。
And Poland, our third stop, was pretty loosey goosey.
我们是怎么知道的？
How did we know?
出租车司机会开过来，问：‘美元？’
Taxi drivers would drive up and they would say Dollars?
我们就会回答：‘兹罗提？’
And we would say Zlotis?
然后他们就开走了。
And they would drive off.
所以他们对波兰货币不感兴趣。
So they were not interested in Polish money.
所以我以为这里会最先崩溃，事实确实如此。
So I thought it's going to crumble here first, which it did.
但那种氛围——人们害怕与你交谈，后来我们才知道，人们甚至不敢彼此交谈，因为在东德，每五十个人中就可能有一个是间谍。
But the atmosphere, the atmosphere of people being afraid, People being afraid to talk to you and as it turns out we now know to one another because every fiftieth person or possibly more in East Germany was a spy.
斯塔西有一个非常、非常广泛的情报网络。
The Stasi had a very, very widespread network.
你过去曾说过，你推迟了《使女的故事》的写作，因为你最初有了这个想法，但觉得这想法太怪异了，连你自己都觉得奇怪。
You have said in the past that you'd put off writing The Handmaid's Tale because you had the initial idea but it was too weird even for me.
是的。
Yes.
我觉得这简直疯狂。
I thought it was quite bonkers.
但请记住，当时美国是光明的灯塔。
But remember that at that time America was the beacon of light.
它是民主的典范。
It was the democratic ideal.
它是自由之地，自由美国广播电台。
It was the land of freedom, radio free America.
欧洲人根本无法相信这种情况会发生在那儿。
And people in Europe just didn't believe that it could ever go like that.
英国人已经经历过他们的宗教战争和奥利弗·克伦威尔的独裁统治，以及其他类似的事情，比如脱欧，他们认为不会变成那样。
People in England had already had their religious war and their Oliver Cromwell dictatorship and whatever other thing they might do such as Brexit, it wasn't going to be that.
所以他们觉得这只是一个有趣的故事。
So they thought jolly tale.
加拿大人以他们一贯的焦虑方式说道，加拿大人总是焦虑的，如果你北边是俄罗斯、南边是美国，你也会一样焦虑：这种事情会发生在我们这里吗？
Canadians in their anxious way because Canadians are always anxious and you would be too if you had Russia to the North of you and The US to the South said, Could it happen here?
而在美国，人们意见分裂。
And in The States it was split.
一方面，玛格丽特，别傻了。
On the one hand, Margaret, don't be silly.
这种事情绝不会在这里发生。
That would never happen here.
另一方面，我们还能撑多久？
On the other hand, how long have we got?
所以我一直是个不相信这种事情不会发生在这里的人。
So I've always been somebody who has never believed it can't happen here.
只要条件具备，这种事情 anywhere 都可能发生。
It can happen anywhere given the circumstances.
我想知道，当你第一次拿到手稿时，那一刻是怎样的？
I wonder about the moment when you first had the manuscript in your hand.
你知道你的第一位读者是你的好友、小说家瓦莱丽·马丁。
You know your first reader was your friend, the novelist Valerie Martin.
她对它
What did she
怎么看？
make of it?
是的。
Yes.
她是来自新奥尔良的作家。
She's a writer from New Orleans.
当时我们都在阿拉巴马州的塔斯卡卢萨做客座教学，那种教学项目持续几个月。
And we were both in Alabama teaching in Tuscaloosa in one of these guest teaching things that lasted for a couple of months.
我们的女儿年龄相同，所以彼此认识。
And we had daughters of the same age so we knew each other.
我就问她：你愿意读一读这个，告诉我它是不是太疯狂了吗？
And I said, Would you mind reading this and telling me if it's too mad?
她读了之后，我说我觉得我会惹上大麻烦。
And she read it and I said I think I'm going to get in a lot of trouble.
她说我觉得你会赚很多钱。
And she said I think you're going to make a lot of money.
你们俩都对了。
You were both right.
我
I
我觉得是这样。
think so.
你在写这本书的时候，有没有意识到它会如此持久？
Did you have any sense of the book's longevity when you were writing it?
你知道，你说过这种事情随时都可能发生，这可以说是一种永恒的威胁，我想。
You know, you said this is something that could happen anywhere and it's sort of a perennial threat, I suppose.
嗯，这是一种永恒的可能性。
Well it's a perennial possibility.
然后在2016年，一切又发生了变化。
And then in 2016 everything changed again.
我们现在正处于《使女的故事》变得越来越贴近现实的时期。
And we are now in that period where The Handmaid's Tale has become much closer.
不是那些服装。
Not the outfits.
我不认为我们会看到那些服装。
I don't think we're going to get the outfits.
但其他方面似乎越来越有可能发生。
But the rest of it seems more and more plausible.
这对你来说感觉如何？
And how does that feel to you?
因为读者一定经常联系你，年轻读者也一定经常联系你。
Because readers must get in touch and young readers must get in touch all the time.
是的。
They do.
这类政权之所以无法长久，部分原因是它们变得不可持续。
These kinds of regimes don't last partly because they become unsustainable.
而这个特定的政权看起来相当混乱。
And this particular one seems quite chaotic.
此外，我们也不能忽视美国。
Also let us not count America out.
首先，它实际上比从远处看起来要多元化得多。
It's first of all a lot more diverse than it might appear from a distance.
其次，美国人非常倔强。
And second, Americans are quite ornery.
他们不喜欢别人命令他们排好队、乖乖听话。
They do not like people telling the molten line up and do what they're told.
他们真的非常讨厌这样。
They really don't like that.
但他们也不喜欢被任何一方——无论左右——指手画脚。
But they don't like being bossed around by anybody right or left.
我知道，对你来说，基列发生的一切都必须有现实世界的历史先例，这一点很重要。
I know that it was important to you that everything that happens in Gilead had a real world precedent, a historical precedent.
为什么这对你如此重要？
Why did that matter so much to you?
好吧，我想能够指出他们所实施的每一个想法的来源，并说：别以为这是我那扭曲怪异的想象力凭空捏造的。
Well I wanted to be able to point to the source of whatever idea they were enacting and say Don't say that I just made this up out of my twisted weird imagination.
有人在推特上（现在叫X）问：玛格丽特·阿特伍德是怎么想出这些怪异的东西的？
Somebody said on Twitter now X, How does Margaret Atwood come up with this weird shit?
我说：并不是我想出了这些怪异的东西。
And I said, It's not me that comes up with this weird shit.
而是人类，自古以来一直如此。
It's the human race, which it has throughout history.
所以，每一件事都有据可查，都曾经发生过。
So chapter and verse, it's all happened.
玛格丽特，我觉得我们应该再放点音乐。
Margaret, I think we should have some more music.
你今天的第六个选择。
Your sixth choice today.
我们接下来做什么？
What's next for us?
我的第六个选择来自歌剧《使女的故事》，这在一开始是个不太可能的项目。
My sixth choice is from the opera of The Handmaid's Tale, an improbable venture at the outset.
我当时在哥本哈根。
I was in Copenhagen.
我在安格特雷尔酒店，一位非常高大的丹麦男子走过来，跪在我脚边。
I was in the Hotel d'Angleterre and this very, very tall Danish man came over and knelt at my feet.
这太奇怪了。
This was bizarre.
我想他是想和我处于同一高度。
Well I think so he could be on the same level as me.
他说：‘我收到了丹麦皇家歌剧院的委托。’
And he said, I've been given a commission by the Royal Danish Opera Company.
这是三十四年来他们首次授予新委约，我必须创作《使女的故事》。
It's the first time in thirty four years that they've given a new commission and I must write The Handmaid's Tale.
如果我不能创作《使女的故事》，我就不想写任何歌剧。
And if I can't write The Handmaid's Tale, I don't want to write any opera at all.
如果有人对你这么说，你会怎么做？
So what would you do if somebody said that to you?
你会想到两件事：这个人疯了，但另一方面，也许他并没有疯。
You would think two things: This person is mad, but on the other hand maybe he isn't mad.
如果他写了一部歌剧，但质量不好，怎么办？
And what if he writes an opera and it isn't any good?
那它就会悄然消失。
Well then it will just disappear.
如果他写了一部歌剧，而且质量很好，怎么办？
And what if he writes an opera and it is good?
那就会是一件好事。
Then that will be a good thing.
所以我允许别人在我的沙盒里玩，因为你永远无法预料。
So that's why I let people play in my sandbox because you never know.
我当时参加了首演。
And I was at the premiere.
那是在2000年。
It was in the year 2000.
开场是一部电影片段，展示了纽约双子塔被炸毁的场景。
It started with a film role showing the Twin Towers in New York being blown up.
当真实发生爆炸后，我们不得不删掉那段内容。
We had to remove that later when they actually were blown up.
所以我选了一段《使女的故事》歌剧中的咏叹调，这是唯一一首以月经周期为主题的歌剧咏叹调。
So I've chosen an aria from The Handmaid's Tale opera and it's the only aria that you will ever hear in an opera which is about the menstrual cycle.
来自保罗·鲁德斯创作的《使女的故事》歌剧第一幕、关于月经周期的咏叹调片段，由玛丽安·罗霍尔姆和汉娜·菲舍尔演唱，皇家丹麦乐团演奏，迈克尔·舍恩万特指挥。
Part of the aria to the menstrual cycle from act one of the Handmaid's Tale opera, composed by Paul Ruders, performed by Marianne Roholm and Hannah Fischer with the Royal Danish Orchestra, conducted by Michael Schoenvant.
玛格丽特，你提到了你的伴侣格雷厄姆。
Margaret, you mentioned your partner Graham.
你们两人相伴了近五十年。
The two of you were together for nearly five decades.
我知道你在他的晚年一直照顾他。
I know that you cared for him during his final years.
他于2012年被诊断出患有痴呆症，七年后去世。
Was He diagnosed with dementia in 2012 and passed away seven years later.
在那段时间里，你为他写了很多诗。
And you wrote poetry about him during that time.
这样做是否帮助你理解和应对你所经历的一切？
Did doing that help you process what you were living through and experiencing?
嗯，我觉得是的。
Well I think so.
他并不打算一直待到不再认识自己为止。
And he had no intention of sticking around until he didn't know who he was.
所以在这个过程中，人们会失去自我的某些部分，但他的确从未忘记过别人是谁。
So it's funny what parts of themselves people lose during this process, but he never lost who people were.
他丧失了一种叫做执行功能的能力，比如烤箱上该按哪个按钮之类的。
He lost something called executive function like which button on the toaster oven do you push, things like that.
但他一直清楚地知道每个人是谁。
But he was always very aware of who everybody was.
他对此依然充满智慧。
He was still wise about it.
在那段时间里，他一直与家里的每个人交流。
He talked to everybody in the family through it.
这并不令人意外。
And it wasn't unexpected.
他在伦敦去世。
He died in London.
他的家人有在伦敦去世的习惯。
His family had a habit of dying in London.
我得说，医院里的医护人员非常出色。
And I have to say they were terrific at the hospital.
他们非常出色。
They were great.
你当时才刚进入英国宣传巡演的几天。
You were actually just a couple of days into The UK leg of a publicity tour.
我知道。
I know.
这太疯狂了。
It was wild.
是的，为了《使女的故事》的续集《证言》。
Yeah for The Testaments, a sequel to The Handmaid's Tale.
你居然还能继续下去。
You managed to carry on.
我的意思是，你是怎么做到的？
I mean how?
嗯，不继续反而更糟。
Well it was preferable to not.
所以我们推迟了事情，直到他真正去世。
So we did postpone things until he actually died.
他发生了严重的脑出血，然后花了大约五天时间才去世。
He had a massive cerebral haemorrhage and then took about five days to actually die.
所以我们有家人在身边。
So we had the family.
医院允许我们留在病房里。
The hospital let us stay in the room.
他在孩子们赶到之前一直保持清醒。
He managed to be conscious until the kids got there.
你回到家后，不得不步入人生下一阶段时，向谁寻求了支持？
Who have you turned to for support once you got home and had to step into the next chapter?
我继续完成了巡演，因为这样我能一直和人们在一起。
Of all I continued on with the tour because it meant that I was with people the whole time.
对我来说，直接回家独自一人反而更难承受。
And that was to me preferable to going straight home and being by myself.
我有很多朋友，他们总是能给我帮助。
And I have a lot of friends and those are always a help.
好的，玛格丽特。
Alright Margaret.
我们再听点音乐吧。
Let's have some more music.
你今天第七个选择。
Your seventh choice today.
GG：这让我们回到2009年。
GG: Well this takes us back to 2009.
2008年发生了严重的金融危机，我在美国的出版商彻底解散了。
So 2008 was the big financial meltdown and my publisher in The States emptied out.
那里空荡荡的走廊，很多公关人员也都离开了。
It was echoing corridors and that included a lot of the publicists.
于是我对我朋友、经纪人菲比说：如果我们不自己操办，就根本不会有新书发布会。
So I said to my friend Phoebe the agent, Unless we do this ourselves, we are not going to have a book launch.
因为她的伴侣奥维尔·斯托弗是一位音乐家，在书出版之前就拿到了手稿，并为此写好了所有音乐。
So because her partner Orville Stover, a musician, had got hold of the manuscript before the book was even published, he had written all the music.
所以我们有了这些音乐，并策划了一个方案：将书的第一部分与音乐和戏剧表演结合，同时举办书展，并在某些情况下进行环保募捐。
So we had all of this music and we concocted a plan whereby we would put on a musical and dramatic performance of the first part of the book combined with a book launch and in some instances some environmental fundraising.
我们确实这么做了。
And we did that.
我们在23个不同的城市举办了这场活动。
We did it in 23 different cities.
它被称为《神的颂歌：园丁》。
It's called Hymns of the Gods Gardeners.
接下来我们要听的是《地下生命节》，主要讲述生活在地下的微小生物。
So what we are going to hear is and this is the Festival of Underground Life, which is mostly small life forms that live underground.
这首歌名为《赞美微小而完美的鼹鼠》。
And the song is called We Praise the Tiny Perfect Moles.
奥维尔·斯托伯。
Orville Storber.
我们赞美这些微小而完美的鼹鼠。
We praise the tiny perfect moles.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，你花了很多时间思考未来可能发生的事情。
Margaret Atwood, you spend a lot of time thinking about how things might work out in future.
我想知道，你是否会考虑未来的读者，并希望他们在一百年后从你的书中获得什么？
I wonder if you think about future readers and what you hope they'll take from your books in say one hundred years' time.
这些是我们尚不认识的人。
These are people we do not yet know.
我们确实做过一个名为‘挪威未来图书馆’的项目。
We did do a project called the Future Library of Norway.
是的。
Yes.
那是2014年，我
That was in 2014 I
想。
think.
是的。
Yes.
我们那时启动了这个项目。
We started it then.
艺术家凯蒂·帕特森来自苏格兰，她提出了这个构想，并说服奥斯陆参与，因为当时他们正在建造一座新图书馆。
So the artist is Katie Patterson from Scotland who dreamed up this thing and talked Oslo into doing it because they were building a new library.
这个项目持续一百年，每年都会有一位来自世界某个地方、使用任何语言的作家提交一份保密的手稿。
And the project is every year for a hundred years a new writer from somewhere in the world in any language will submit a secret manuscript.
只制作两份副本。
Only two copies.
你不能透露里面的内容。
You can't tell what's in it.
手稿必须由文字构成。
It has to be made of words.
只把你的相册塞进去是不行的。
No good just sticking your photo album in.
但它可以是任何由文字组成的东西。
But it can be anything made of words.
所以你的洗衣单、一封信、一部小说、一个故事、一首诗，任何东西都可以。
So your laundry list, a letter, a novel, a story, a poem anything at all.
然后你去挪威。
And you go over to Norway.
你走进他们为这个项目种植的森林，交出你的手稿。
You go into the forest that they have planted there as part of the project and you hand over your manuscript.
它会被放在奥斯陆新图书馆的特别房间内。
It gets put in the special room in the new library in Oslo.
到2114年，所有盒子将被打开，手稿将公之于众，同时会从已经长成的森林中砍伐足够的树木，用来制作纸张，印刷未来挪威的图书馆。
And in 2114 the boxes will all be opened, the manuscripts will be revealed, and enough trees will be cut down from the forest which will have grown to make the paper to print the future library of Norway.
多么富有诗意的想法。
What a poetic idea.
是不是？
Isn't it?
这引起了大量媒体报道，因为它非常充满希望。
And it got a lot of press because it's so hopeful.
所以将会有一个奥斯陆。
So there will be an Oslo.
将会有一个挪威。
There will be a Norway.
将会有人类。
There will be people.
将会有人能够阅读。
There will be people who can read.
将会有人对阅读感兴趣。
There will be people who are interested in reading.
树木会生长。
The trees will grow.
你充满希望吗？
Are you hopeful?
我总是充满希望，因为我相信希望是人类与生俱来的特质。
I'm always hopeful because I think hope is a built in human thing.
希望就是相信，只要你努力，就能阻止某些可怕的事情发生，或促成更好的事情发生。
Hope is the hope that if you do work at it, you can either prevent something terrible from happening or help something better to happen.
玛格丽特，差不多该把你赶走了。
Margaret, it's almost time to cast you away.
你为自己想象的是什么样的岛屿？
What kind of island are you imagining for yourself?
一个有食物的岛屿。
One with food on it.
我注意到你的开场音乐里有
I notice in your intro music you've got a
很多海鸥。
lot of seagulls.
它们并不属于大多数荒岛的原生动物，但我们对此略过不提。
They're not indigenous to most desert islands but we gloss over that.
是的。
Yes.
好吧，我们假设它们会下蛋。
Well let's pretend they lay eggs.
如果你想要吃东西，这总是很好的。
This is always good if you want something to eat.
所以我们会有一些海洋生物在周围。
So we will have some marine life around.
我们可以做一些捕鱼活动。
We will be able to do a bit of fishing.
我们可能会收集一些贝类并吃蛤蜊。
We might do some muscle collecting and clam eating.
我们会建一个遮蔽处，因为天气可能会太热太晒。
And we will build a shelter because it might get too hot and sunny.
那孤独呢？
What about the isolation?
你会如何应对这种远离所有你认识和深爱的人的情况？
How would you handle that, being away from all the people that you know and love?
这会很不愉快，但并非前所未有。
That would be unpleasant but not unprecedented.
好吧，玛格丽特·阿特伍德。
Alright, Margaret Atwood.
在把你送走之前，我们再给你一张碟。
We'll let you have one more disc before we cast you away.
你今天最后的选择。
Your final choice today.
我们要听什么？
What are we going to hear?
我们要听我小时候听的第一首音乐，那时我在树林里，还是个很小的孩子，坐在秋千上。
We are going to hear the first music that I ever heard because up in the woods there I am as a very small child on a swing.
我父亲非常有音乐天赋，特别喜欢贝多芬，他是他最钟爱的作曲家，正在吹口哨。
And my father who is very musical and very keen on Beethoven, his favorite composer, is whistling.
他吹奏的是贝多芬《田园交响曲》中的牧羊人颂歌。
And what he is whistling is the Shepherd's hymn from the Pastoral Symphony.
贝多芬《田园交响曲》中牧羊人颂歌的部分，由爱乐乐团演奏，由奥托·克伦佩勒指挥。
Part of the Shepherd's Hymn from Beethoven's Pastoral Symphony, played by the Philharmonia Orchestra, conducted by Otto Klemperer.
所以，玛格丽特·阿特伍德，该送你离开了。
So Margaret Atwood, it's time to cast you away.
我给你一些书带上。
I'm giving you the books to take with you.
你可以选择《圣经》、莎士比亚全集，以及另一本你自己的选择。
You can have the Bible, the complete works of Shakespeare, and one other book of your choice.
你选了哪一本？
What have you gone for?
我觉得我应该带一本实用的书。
Well I felt I should have something quite useful.
所以我选了《如何在荒岛上生存》作者萨曼莎·贝尔。
So I chose How to Survive on a Desert Island by Samantha Bell.
你还可以带
You can also have
一件奢侈品，玛格丽特。
a luxury item, Margaret.
那会是什么？
What's that going to be?
我的奢侈品是我13岁生日时收到的猎刀，当时他们没有送我珍珠项链。
Well my luxury item is going to be my hunting knife that I was given instead of a pearl necklace when I turned 13.
你要明白，这是我的家人。
This is my family you realize.
还有配套的金属螺旋盖防水火柴盒，里面装着一些火柴。
And along with that goes the metal screw top waterproof matchbox with some matches in it.
这些在荒岛上可是奢侈品。
Those would be luxuries on a desert island.
这些确实是极具实用价值的奢侈品，但人们带刀是有先例的。
Well they are luxuries of a very practical variety but there is precedent for people taking knives.
你的物品背后有着如此感人的故事和个人意义，我允许你保留这些。
And yours has such a sentimental story behind it and has a personal resonance, I'm going to allow those.
最后，在今天你与我们分享的八首曲目中，如果必须先救一首，你会选哪一首？
And finally, which one track of the eight that you've shared with us today would you save from the waves first if you needed to?
我想我可能会选一首轻快的歌来让自己保持清醒。
I think I would probably pick something peppy to keep me awake.
所以我选《Hearts of Stone》by The Charms。
So I'm going to go for Hearts of Stone by The Charms.
哦，我太高兴了。
Oh, I'm so pleased.
这真是一首绝佳的曲子。
That's just a wonderful track.
玛格丽特·阿特伍德，非常感谢你让我们聆听你的《荒岛唱片》。
Margaret Atwood, thank you very much for letting us hear your Desert Island Discs.
谢谢你们。
And thank you.
这真是一次愉快的经历。
It's been a pleasure.
你好。
Hello.
和玛格丽特聊天非常愉快，希望她在岛上过得很开心，听说她还带着一条相当帅气的腰带。
It was lovely chatting to Margaret, and I hope she's very happy on her island with a rather dashing, by the sounds of it, belt.
我们的档案中收藏了两千多个节目，您可以收听。
There are more than 2,000 programmes in our archive that you can listen to.
我们还邀请过其他布克奖得主，包括伯纳丁·埃瓦里斯托、阿兰达蒂·洛伊、A.S. 拜雅特和霍华德·雅各布森。
We've cast other Booker Prize winners away, including Bernardine Evaristo, Arundhati Roy, AS Byatt and Howard Jacobson.
您可以通过BBC Sounds或我们的《荒岛唱片》官网搜索收听他们的节目。
You can hear their programmes if you search through BBC Sounds or on our own Desert Island Discs website.
今天节目的录音师是苏·梅奥。
The studio manager for today's programme was Sue Mayo.
执行制作协调员是苏西·罗林斯。
The executive production coordinator was Susie Rollins.
助理制作人是克里斯汀·帕夫洛夫斯基。
The assistant producer was Christine Pavlovsky.
内容编辑是穆巴拉克·图里亚，制作人是莎拉·泰勒。
The content editor was Mugabe Turia, and the producer was Sarah Taylor.
下次节目请收听我的嘉宾、作家莱希·奇尔德。
Join me next time when my guest will be the writer, Leigh Child.
大家好，我是凯蒂·拉塞尔，来自BBC广播四台《阴影世界》的节目《取消的剖析》。
Hi, I'm Katie Rassell and for BBC Radio four from Shadow World, this is Anatomy of a Cancellation.
我是特定时代的一个象征，也是取消文化的一种极端表现。
I'm a symbol of a particular time and an extreme version of cancel culture.
诗人兼教师凯特·克拉尼写了一本关于她三十年教学生涯的书，最初获得了赞誉。
Poet and teacher Kate Clanchey wrote a book about her thirty year teaching career, was initially praised.
这是一本很棒的书。
It's a wonderful book.
但后来，其他人认为这本书具有种族主义色彩且问题严重。
But later, others said it was racist and deeply problematic.
这本书中的语言如此去人性化。
The language in this book is so dehumanizing.
不公正的取消吗？
Unjustified cancellation?
迟来的清算吗？
Long overdue reckoning?
在BBC Sounds上订阅《取消的剖析》。
Subscribe to Anatomy of a Cancellation on BBC Sounds.
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