布鲁克·霍珀：Adobe机器智能设计负责人谈AI无法触及的领域

事物变化得太快了，你根本跟不上，但只要你保持好奇心，不断尝试，我以前就是那样的设计师。

Things are changing so quickly and you can't keep up, but if you stay curious and you're playing and I used to be that designer.

我会去找我的工程师，对他们说：我就坐在你旁边，我们一起把这个问题解决掉。

I'd go and corner my engineers and say, I'm sitting right beside you and we're gonna figure this thing out.

现在他可以直接把东西交给他们，他们甚至有时能直接从里面提取代码。

And now he can just hand them the thing and they can maybe even sometimes take the code directly from it.

因此，人们能够专注于做他们真正热爱的事情。

And so people are able to focus on doing some of the stuff that they love.

现在有更多探索在发生，我认为这是好事。

There's a lot more exploration happening and I think that's a good thing.

布鲁克·霍珀始终贴近自己的专业。

Brooke Hopper stays close to her craft.

在与我们通话聊她在Adobe的角色之前，她正深入使用Cursor原型设计导航方案。

Before she hopped on a call with us to chat about her role at Adobe, she was deep in Cursor prototyping navigation design ideas.

尽管布鲁克在Adobe工作了十多年，仍担任个人贡献者角色，但她成功地在不转向管理岗位的情况下产生了影响力并展现了领导力。

Though Brooke holds an individual contributor role after more than a decade at Adobe, she's managed to have influence and demonstrate leadership without being relegated to management.

这正是许多设计师所梦想的：技艺与事业的完美结合。

This is what many designers dream of, craft and career.

作为机器智能与新技术的高级首席设计师，她参与设计了最早的Firefly实验，并且现在正在开发尚未发布的新工具，这些工具引发了关于非破坏性编辑或Photoshop中图层等概念是否仍保有原有意义的根本性问题。

As senior principal designer of machine intelligence and new technology, she helped design the very first Firefly experiments, and now she's working on unreleased tools that raise fundamental questions about other things like nondestructive editing or even layers in Photoshop still mean what they once did.

我们还需要图层吗？

Do we still need layers?

如果你仔细聆听，或许能从中窥见Adobe目前正在研发的产品线索。

If you listen carefully, you might get some clues about the products that Adobe is cooking up right now.

Brooke不仅仅是一位产品思考者。

And Brooke is more than a product thinker.

她还是一位设计教育者，主导了Adobe与帕森斯设计学院合作的项目‘Not Generated’——这个名称是她刻意选择的，旨在引发一场对话。

She's also a design educator leading partnership between Adobe and Parsons called Not Generated, a name she chose deliberately to start a conversation.

在本集中，我们深入探讨了将AI作为创意合作者而非捷径的真正含义，为什么设计教育必须停止教授工具而转向培养审美，以及为什么Brooke认为此刻可能是她职业生涯中最令人兴奋的时刻。

In this episode, we get into what it actually means to use AI as a creative collaborator rather than a shortcut, why design education needs to stop teaching tools and start teaching taste, and why Brooke believes this moment might be the most exciting time in her career.

欢迎收听《更好的设计》，探索设计与技术交汇处的创造力。

This is Design Better where we explore creativity at the intersection of design and technology.

我是埃利·伍利里。

I'm Eli Woolery.

我是亚伦·沃尔特。

And I'm Aaron Walter.

在《更好的设计》节目中，我们的主要使命是制作有助于像你这样的人精进技艺、提升协作能力，并从他人的创作过程中获得灵感的内容。

At Design Better, our primary mission is to produce work that helps people like you refine your craft, improve your collaboration skills, and get inspired by the creative process of others.

如果你喜欢我们在这里所做的工作，支持我们的最佳方式是在 designbetterpodcast.com/subscribe 成为高级订阅用户。

If you enjoy what we do here, the best way to support us is to become a premium subscriber at designbetterpodcast.com/subscribe.

我们将在短暂的广告后回到对话。

We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

《更好的设计》由 Wix Studio 赞助推出，这是一个为所有网页创作者打造的平台，帮助他们大规模地设计、开发和管理卓越的网页项目。

Design Better is brought to you by Wix Studio, the platform built for all web creators to design, develop, and manage exceptional web projects at scale.

了解更多，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Learn more at wix.com/studio.

现在，回到节目。

And now, back to the show.

布罗克·霍珀，欢迎来到《设计更好》。

Brooke Hopper, welcome to Design Better.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

我非常期待我们的对话。

I'm really excited for our conversation.

我们之前和你在Adobe的同事们聊了很多。

So we've been chatting a lot with your colleagues at Adobe.

你知道，就像我们在按下录制按钮前说的那样，现在发生了很多事情。

You know, there's a lot that's happening right now, as we were saying before we hit the record button.

设计的角色正在发生很大的变化。

The role of design is changing quite a bit.

部分原因是时代和工具的变化，我们想聊聊人工智能以及Adobe对此的看法。

Partly, it's the times and the tools, and we want to talk about AI and Adobe's position and how it sees things in that respect.

但你也在思考设计教育，以及设计更广泛的角色。

But you're also thinking about design education, thinking about design and its role more broadly.

当你与客户交流，并了解各个创意领域正在发生的变化时，你如何看待设计角色的当前转变？

When you talk to customers and you sort of get a view of what's happening in various creative disciplines, how do you see the role of design changing right now?

我听到有人说过，我应该回去查一下是谁说的，那是一篇发表在Medium上的文章，他们说设计相关的工作并没有消失。

I heard someone say, and I should go back and find out who it is, it was an article on Medium, and they said jobs and design aren't being lost.

只是被重新定位和重新聚焦了。

It's just being repositioned and refocused.

我认为这正是我们目前所看到的情况。

And I think that's exactly what we're seeing right now.

总有一部分人，只要能找到更便宜、更快的替代方案，他们就会选择那样做。

There are always gonna be a certain set of people who, if you can find something cheaper and faster, they'll go for it.

但那些真正关心设计的人，他们非常重视设计师所能带来的价值。

But the people who really honestly care about design, they really care about what it is that designers bring to the table.

关键是，当我们谈论创造力和设计流程时，你所贡献的不仅仅是最终成果。

And the thing is is, you know, when we talk about creativity and we talk about the design process, what you're bringing isn't just the final thing.

你带来的是教育。

You're bringing the education.

你带来的是所有关于设计基础的知识、你的品味、审美、观点、情感和经历。

You're bringing all of your knowledge of design fundamentals, your taste, your aesthetic, your point of view, your emotions, your experiences.

正是这些因素让设计变得真正出色，即这种同理心以及所有这些核心的人类体验。

And those are the things that make design really amazing, is this empathy and all these other things that are such core human experiences.

而这正是设计真正的价值所在。

And that's really the value of design.

我们节目有一位朋友是漫画家杰森·查特菲尔德，他最近写了一篇小文章，谈到了他所说的‘精通的慢热过程’，最终，这其实并不关乎最终产品。

We have a friend of the show who's a cartoonist named Jason Chatfield, and he recently wrote a little article kind of around what he calls the slow burn of mastery where in the end, it's not really about the final product.

更多时候，它关乎的是过程，以及你从自身的人类视角和经历中带入这一过程的元素，这些让最终成果更能与你的观众、客户或任何分享设计或艺术的对象产生共鸣。

So much of it is about the process and what you bring from your own human perspective and your experiences to that process that make the end result more relatable to your audience or your customer or whoever you're sharing your design or your art with.

我觉得这很有趣。

I thought that was interesting.

这和你在Adobe的工作视角有什么共鸣吗？

And how's that kinda resonate with your perspective with the work you do at Adobe?

这正是我所看到的。

That's exactly what I see.

我认为我们现在正处于一个新时代，新技术让我们能够实现过去在物理上和实际操作中根本不可能完成的事情。

And I think we're in this period where we have this new technology, and it's enabling all these things that we quite physically and literally could have not done before.

你可以设计出那些曾经几乎不可能实现的东西。

You can design things that may have been almost impossible.

我的意思是，就在今天早上，我没有在 Figma 里尝试原型化一些微交互，而是直接进入了 Cursor。

I mean, even just this morning, rather than try to prototype some micro interactions in Figma, I just went into Cursor.

不到三十分钟，我就做出了完全符合我设计的版本，还自定义了这些滑块，用来调整不同的微动画，确保面板的开合完全符合我的预期，精确到毫秒。

And in less than thirty minutes, I had an exact version of my design, and I custom built these sort of, like, sliders so I could play around with different micro animations to make sure that I was getting this panel opening and closing exactly the way I wanted it down to the microsecond.

这才是设计真正闪耀的地方，我认为很多人还没有完全理解：设计就是把这一切都带到桌面上，然后将其转化为视觉和交互效果，比如当你打开一个面板时，它如何‘咔哒’一声，甚至你听到的每一个声音。

That's where design really shines, and I think that's what a lot of people don't fully understand is design is bringing all of this to the table and then being able to put it into visuals and interactions and, like, how something snaps when you open a panel or even a sound that you hear.

那微小的声音背后，凝聚了几十年的经验。

There's decades of experience that's put into that tiny little sound.

苹果支付时那声‘叮’的音效，配合着细微的触觉反馈，这就是纯粹的人性化设计。

Apple Pay, when you do the cha ching, and it has the little haptics that goes with it, that's human design right there.

太棒了。

It's amazing.

正是这些细微的细节才如此重要。

It's those little details that matter so much.

你描述的这种设计能力真的很有趣。

It's interesting that you describe that process of being able to design those things.

大约十五六年前，设计师们是用Flash来实现这些的。

About fifteen or sixteen years ago, designers were able to do that with Flash.

后来Flash因为史蒂夫·乔布斯写给Adobe的那封信而声名狼藉地衰落了。

And then Flash sort of famously got crushed when Steve Jobs wrote that letter to Adobe.

Adobe收购了Macromedia等等。

Adobe acquired Macromedia, etcetera.

孩子们，去查一查吧。

Go look it up, kids.

这事确实发生了。

It happened.

而现在，我们又重新拥有了这些技能，设计与工程之间的界限再次变得模糊。

And and now we we have these skills that are back, and there's a blurring of lines once again, where design and engineering blur.

我很好奇，当你处理类似这样的事情并能如此细致时，通常你得去找工程师，然后来回沟通。

I'm curious, like, when you work on something like that and you can be so detailed, normally, you'd have to go to an engineer, and there'd be this back and forth.

最好的情况是，你们坐下来，有人愿意花时间、有好意陪你一起把所有这些细节调整到位。

Maybe best case scenario, you sit down together and someone has the time and goodwill to sit down and go through all of that stuff with you and dial it in.

但大多数时候，你并没有这样的机会。

Most of the time, you don't.

而现在，你可以直接去找开发者，这样说：

And now you can go to a developer and say like this.

它应该长成这样。

It should be like this.

这改变了你和同事之间的对话方式和关系吗？

How's that changed the conversation and the relationship with your colleagues?

这简直太棒了。

It has been amazing.

我确实有一个队友。

I actually have a teammate.

他正在设计一个全新的应用，却一次都没打开过 Figma。

He's designing a brand new app and has not opened Figma once.

这是一个需要大量三维效果和动态交互的应用。

It's an app that requires a lot of three d, a lot of motion.

你本可以用 Figma 做。

You could do it in Figma.

我们以前都是用 Figma 做的。

We used to do it in Figma.

我们过去一直用各种我们长期使用的工具来做，但他却通过‘氛围编码’直接构建了这个应用的体验，连 Figma 都没打开过。

We used to do it in all the different apps that we've been designing in forever, but he's been vibe coding the experience of this app without ever opening Figma.

这让我们设计师能够专注于实现我们想要的效果，而不是在工具上纠结。

It allows us as designers to focus on getting the result that we want from it rather than struggling with the tools.

如果你在工具上遇到困难，那就自己动手做一个，比如我今天早上做的那些自定义滑块，帮助我确定动画该是什么样子。

And if you are struggling with the tools, just build your own, you know, like the custom sliders that I built this morning that help me figure out what the animation need to be.

我觉得真正改变很大的是，产品经理开始转向设计，并说：嘿。

I think that's the thing that has changed so much is PMs are coming to design, and they say, hey.

我一直在想你给我看的那个设计，很好奇如果我们这样做、这样做和这样做会怎么样。

I couldn't stop thinking about that design that you showed me, and I was kinda curious about what if we did this, this, and this.

因此，这几乎引发了更多的讨论。

And so it's almost opening up more conversations.

这种感觉令人兴奋，比以往任何时候都更有活力，但并不是说设计曾经无聊过或者一直无聊。

It feels exciting, and it feels more alive than ever before, and not that design was boring or has ever been boring.

我是一名职业设计师。

I'm a career designer.

我从平面设计师做起，经历了整个过程。

I've started out as a graphic designer and have done the whole thing.

但我现在看到一种久违的趣味性和激情。

But there's a playfulness that I'm seeing now that I haven't seen in a while, and there's an excitement.

人们会说，嘿，看看我做的这个东西。

And, you know, people say, hey, check out this thing I made.

太酷了。

It's so cool.

也许这个设计只是稍微偏离了规范，但我们现在又在真正地创造东西了。

And maybe it is just a little design is not to spec whatever, but we're making things again.

这几乎让我想起了早期做网页的时候，当我刚学会 HTML 和 CSS，那时我简直惊呆了。

It almost feels like in the days of web, you know, when I first learned HTML and CSS, and I was just like, oh my gosh.

我能把这东西变成现实。

I can make this thing real.

这不再只是像素和 Photoshop，因为那时候我就是在用这些做设计。

It's not just pixels and Photoshop, because that's where I was at the time designing.

所以我觉得，这种玩乐和兴奋的精神又回来了。

And so I think there's this spirit of play and excitement.

当然，技术飞速发展也带来了巨大的压力，事情总在不断变化。

And, yes, there's a lot of stress behind the technology moving so quickly, and things are changing all the time.

有人来自 OpenAI 提到，就连他们自己也在努力跟上技术发展的速度，这反而让人松了一口气。

Someone from OpenAI had mentioned that even they were struggling to keep up with the rate of technology, which kind of gives you a little sigh of relief.

是的。

Yeah.

不只是我。

Not just me.

变化太快了，你根本跟不上。

Are changing so quickly, you can't keep up.

但如果你保持好奇并乐在其中，我们会进行更有意义的对话。

But if you stay curious and you're playing, we're having more meaningful conversations.

我曾经就是那样的设计师。

And I used to be that designer.

我会去找我的工程师，对他们说：我就坐在你旁边，我们一起把这事搞定。

I'd go and corner my engineers and say, I'm sitting right beside you, and we're gonna figure this thing out.

而现在，他只需要把东西交给他们，他们甚至有时可以直接从里面提取代码。

And now he can just hand them the thing, they can maybe even sometimes take the code directly from it.

因此，人们能够专注于做他们热爱的事情。

And so people are able to focus on doing some of the stuff that they love.

现在有更多探索正在发生，我认为这是好事。

There's a lot more exploration happening, and I think that's a good thing.

这是件好事。

It is a good thing.

我认为，只要我们能缩短想法与执行之间的差距，就会带来更高的保真度、更少的盲目尝试、更少的困惑和更少的冲突。

I think anytime we can decrease the gap between an idea and execution, there's just higher fidelity, less flailing, less confusion, less conflict.

我们可以迅速协同工作，拥有共同的愿景，这太棒了。

We can just work very quickly together, and have a shared vision, which is awesome.

但当我听你描述这些时，我不禁想到，我们已经经历过多次工具箱变革的时刻，比如‘哦，这次会非常不同’。

But I can't help but think, as you described this stuff, we've lived through multiple, oh, our toolbox is changing moments and like, oh, it's going be very different.

鉴于我见证过多个循环，这次的感觉真的不一样。

This feels very different to me having seen multiple cycles.

比如，我们曾与谷歌搜索部门的用户体验副总裁丽安娜·贝尔进行过一次对话。

So for example, we had a conversation with Rhiannon Bell, who is VP of UX at Google leading search.

她谈到他们如何为搜索中的AI进行设计。

And she was talking about how they are designing for AI in search.

这可不是小事。

And that's not a small thing.

这就像，谷歌搜索页面的概念彻底颠覆了，变成了完全不同的东西。

That's like, hey, the notion of the Google search page explodes and becomes something different.

目的地变成了AI对话。

The destination is the AI conversation.

在Adobe，他们制作专业工具，我认为专业工具始终会有其一席之地，因为设计和创意过程之间存在不同的层次。

And at Adobe, who makes professional tools and I think always, like, there's gonna be a place for professional tools because there's kind of different tiers of design and interaction with the creative process.

但当我花时间在Cursor上时，我忍不住想，也许只需通过对话就能很快达到那种程度。

But I can't help but think as you're spending time in Cursor, like, could get there very fast by just talking.

我正在写一些东西。

I'm writing some stuff.

我只是像普通人一样说话，而不是强迫自己的思维方式去适应计算机的理解。

I'm just talking like a human being instead of, I'm trying to bend my humanity to the computer's understanding.

这完全不同。

It's very different.

今天早些时候，我和埃利刚聊过。

And Eli and I were just talking earlier today.

他哥哥是个开发者，但已经有一段时间没写过代码了。

His brother's a developer, and he hasn't written a line of code in a while.

这是完全不同的情况。

It's a very different scenario.

这对Adobe在开发工具方面的战略意味着什么？

Where does this put Adobe strategically in building tools?

关于创意过程，人们谈论很多，说它正在发生变化。

The creative process, there's a lot of talk about, oh, it's changing.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常不同。

It's very different.

就像，这非常不同。

Like, it's very different.

确实非常不同，但我告诉你，不变的是，设计师和艺术家都是控制欲很强的人。

It is very, very different, but I'll tell you something that stays the same is designers and artists are control freaks.

是的。

Yes.

我们是。

We are.

我需要的细节精确到甚至不再谈论像素了。

I need everything down to, like we're not even talking pixels anymore.

现在这已经是数学问题了，因为一切都基于SVG。

It's mathematics at this point because everything is SVG.

我必须做到完美。

I have to have it perfect.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

生成式AI并不能让你接近完美。

Genitive AI isn't a technology that gets you anything close to perfect.

它或许能让你达到80%的程度。

It might get you 80% of the way there.

但到了某个时刻，你必须跳入一个能够让你将这个东西从80%提升到90%、95%、96%、99.9%的领域。

But then at some point, you have to jump into a place that allows you to start taking that thing from 80% to 90%, to 95, 96, 99.9.

你知道的吧？

You know?

总还有更完美的目标可以追求。

Like, there's always a more perfect thing to get to.

而对于我们这样极其重视工作质量的人来说，Adobe提供了这些工具。

And for people like us who really care about the quality of their work, Adobe has those tools.

所以很多情况下，是的，我们需要重新思考我们的工具如何与之互动。

And so a lot of it is, yes, we need to rethink how our tools interact with this.

我认为你甚至会开始看到Adobe推出新工具，因为这些工具已经存在很长时间了，它们很棒，但技术正在根本性地变革。

And I think that you're even gonna start to see new tools from Adobe because these tools have been around for a very long time, and they're great tools, but technology is fundamentally changing.

因此，我们需要思考新技术如何与我们现有的工具整合，同时也要思考如何构建能实现新功能的新工具。

And so thinking about how new technology integrates with our current tools, but then also thinking about how we can build new tools that enable new things.

所以我们的团队一直在探索一些非常令人兴奋的技术，比如能够实时为你展示语义层面的控制选项。

So there's some really exciting technology that our team has been exploring around being able to, on the fly, show you controls for semantic level things.

假设我正在编辑一张自己的照片。

Say I'm editing an image of myself.

实时地，Photoshop 可能会为你显示关于我头发的滑块。

On the fly, maybe Photoshop is showing you sliders on my hair.

给我换个新发型。

Give me a new haircut.

稍微改变一下颜色。

Change the color of it slightly.

做一些调整。

Make some adjustments.

这些操作在过去通常需要我进入曲线，甚至如果我仍想那样操作的话，还要进入通道。

Things that would historically require me to go into levels, maybe even channels if that's the way I still wanna work.

我们正在探索这些工具，让你仍能以语义化、面向对象的方式进行工作。

We're exploring these tools that can allow you to still work semantically in an object oriented style way.

但在底层，我们依然保留着那些能让你精确达成目标的功能。

But underneath, we still have that stuff where you can get the exact thing that you want.

我可以向你保证，这一点不会消失：设计师和创意人士非常在意作品是否完美，如果不够完美，他们是不会接受的。

That is something that I can guarantee you is not going away, is that designers and creatives care about something being perfect, and they're not gonna be okay if it's not.

是的。

Yeah.

我想我的观点是，我们通常如何看待自己与工具的关系，是零到一的转变。

I think my point here is the way that we've often thought of our relationship to our tools is zero to one.

之前什么都没有。

There was nothing.

只有一张空白画布，然后我创作了一件作品，它就完美了。

There was a blank canvas, and then I made a thing, and it was perfect.

而现在，什么都没有，我只需说几句话、写几个词，就能得到一个相当不错的东西。

And now, there's nothing, and I say some words, write some words, and there's something that's pretty dang good.

那么，我该如何调整它呢？

And then how do I tweak that?

因为你说得对，最后那一点点确实非常困难。

Because you're right, that last little bit is really hard.

这仍然非常困难。

It's really hard still.

那会是什么样子？

And what does that look like?

这感觉是一种完全不同的与工具互动和进行创造性思考的方式。

That feels like a fundamentally different way to interact with the tools and to think creatively.

你是在以一种方式塑造技术。

You're sculpting technology in a way.

它让你能够从某个东西开始，先形成一个大致的形状，而以前这被称为线框图。

It's allowing you to sort of start with something and start forming a general shape, and that used to be wireframes.

这种工作方式有些不同。

There's something different about the way of working.

它感觉更富有触感，我个人非常享受这一点。

It feels a little more tactile, and I personally have really enjoyed that.

我认为我们还必须意识到另一件事，特别是涉及人工智能和机器本质时：很容易只是盲目跟随机器。

I think the other thing that we have to be aware of, particularly as it relates to AI and just the nature of machines, is it is very easy to just follow the machine.

这也是作为设计师，我们必须抵制的一点，因为你一旦得到某个东西，就会觉得，哦，这看起来不错。

That's also something, as designers, we have to push back against Because you start to get something, you're like, oh, that looks good.

这看起来相当不错。

That looks pretty good.

这看起来相当不错。

That looks pretty good.

然后突然间，你就拥有一堆看起来还不错的东西。

And then suddenly, you have a bunch of pretty good things.

所以我认为，这是很多人对这项技术感到担忧的另一个方面，即我们的品味和审美可能会因为事物趋向同质化而变得平庸。

And so I think that's another area where I hear a lot of people who are concerned about this technology really raise that, is that our taste and our aesthetic is gonna become more of a mean if things tend towards homogeny.

但我确实认为，如果我们意识到这一点，并抵制这类倾向，依然坚持追求我们真正关心的那种完美与细节，这最终是一件好事。

But I do think that if we're aware of that and we push back against those types of things and still really push for that level of perfection and detail that we really care about, I think it's ultimately a good thing.

而且，作为人类，我们会适应。

And, you know, as humans, we adapt.

我们会学习如何与工具共事。

We learn to work with tools.

老实说，这绝对是我在职业生涯中最令人兴奋的时刻之一。

Honestly, it's one of the most exciting times in my career for sure.

我也很喜欢尝试这些工具，尤其是在那些超出我专业领域的领域。

I love playing around with many of these tools as well, especially in areas that are sort of outside my domain of expertise.

我好奇的是，同时也是我觉得存在一些张力的地方：以音频为例，我们使用Adobe的播客增强功能，它对用户非常友好，而且效果惊人。

And the thing I'm curious about and where I feel like there's a little bit of tension is, so let's use audio as an example, and we use Adobe's podcast Enhance, which is very accessible to people, and it's amazing.

它效果惊人。

It's amazing.

如果你还没试过，大家真的去试试看。

If you haven't tried it, people, it's Yeah, try it.

举个例子，布鲁克，我们曾把大卫·塞达里斯录在iPhone上，当时他正开车穿越宾夕法尼亚州。

Just for an example, Brooke, we had David Sedaris on his iPhone in the back of a car driving across the state of Pennsylvania.

我们的音频质量非常差。

We had terrible audio.

我们把音频导入了Adobe的播客AI工具。

We plugged it into Adobe's podcast audio AI tool.

听起来就像他和我们在一起录音室里一样。

Sounded like he was in the studio with us.

是的。

Yep.

所以这些工具太棒了，而且在

So these things are amazing, and at the

同时，我们的编辑和工程师的工作并没有受到威胁。

same time, our editor and engineer, his job is not at risk.

嘿，布莱恩。

Hey, Brian.

最近怎么样？

How's going?

因为你知道，他做出了许多很有价值的编辑、艺术和创意判断。

Because, you know, he's making a lot of editorial judgments, and artistic and creative judgments that are very valuable to us.

我一直在思考、或许也有些困惑的一点是，这或许能引向我们关于教育的讨论：让我先退一步，谈谈我在斯坦福设计项目里的学生们。

The thing that I wonder about and maybe struggle with a bit, and maybe this is a transition to our conversation about education is, I'll take a step back and talk about my students in the design program at Stanford.

我将他们的经历与我本科时的经历联系起来，那时并不是一个以工艺为基础的项目，也不是一个大量进行手工制作的工业设计项目，但仍然有一些工艺成分，以及在使用工具、学习排版、行高、色彩选择等方面的一些挣扎。

And I kind of relate their experience to mine as an undergrad where it wasn't a craft based program, it wasn't an industrial design program where you do a lot of craft, but there was some craft and there was some amount of struggling with the tools and learning about typography and line height and color choices and things like that.

现在，许多同样的学生正在使用像Canva或Adobe的一些更易用的工具。

Now, a lot of these same students are using things like Canva or maybe some of Adobe's more accessible tools.

他们并没有真正经历挣扎，也没有感受到那种摩擦。

They're not really struggling, they're not experiencing that friction.

我有点担心，他们在某些方面的审美判断能力可能没有学到那么多。

I worry a little bit that they're maybe not learning as much in some regards about certain types of aesthetic judgment.

所以，是的，我只是想听听你对这个问题的看法。

So yeah, I'm just curious on your perspective around that.

我的意思是，这些工具对我们这些已经具备相关经验、并能加以利用的人，或者在自己专业领域之外工作的人来说，是不是特别有用？

I mean, were these tools are so good for those of us who either have that experience and kind of leverage it or were working outside our domain?

你对教育这一方面的发展趋势有什么看法？

What do you think about the the educational side of things and where that's headed?

你所提到的，正是学校未来必须全力聚焦的方向，因为这已经不再关乎工具本身了。

What you're getting at is exactly what schools are going to need to really lean into, because it's not about the tool anymore.

现在有成千上万的工具可以帮你做出东西。

There's a million tools out there to make the thing.

关键在于你的品味、判断力、你做出的选择、你观察的角度，以及能够忍受片刻无聊的能力。

It's about your taste, your judgment, the choices that you make, the angles that you see, the ability to be bored for a little bit.

我的目标之一就是，我想让自己稍微无聊一会儿，因为正是在那时，最好的想法才会涌现。

That's one of my goals is, like, I just wanna be bored for a little bit because that's when you come up with the best ideas.

正是在那时，灵感的火花才会突然亮起。

That's when the light bulb moment kind of comes on.

我很欣赏你谈到的挣扎和伴随而来的摩擦感，因为这正是我在Adobe工作时经常思考的问题：当这些工具变得太简单时，会发生什么？

And I love that you talk about the struggle and some of the friction that comes along with it because that's actually something I think a lot about in my job at Adobe is what happens when these tools are too easy.

你需要在工具中设计一些有意的摩擦时刻，尽管我现在还不确定这具体该是什么样子。

You need moments of maybe intentional friction built into the tools, and I don't know exactly how that looks right now.

但正是这些摩擦让你停下来，促使你思考、稍作停顿。

But that's what makes you stop, and that's what makes you sort of think about it and pause for a little bit.

我想分享一个我在研究生院时的故事，我的整个毕业论文都围绕着我按住Ctrl+Z，而Illustrator的一个bug在屏幕上留下了一堆痕迹。

I love to share the story of when I was in grad school, my entire thesis for grad school centered around me holding down on control z and a bug in Illustrator that left, like, a bunch of artifacts on the screen.

这成了我研究生第二年的全部动力。

That was the impetus for my entire second year of grad school.

因此，这些错误、摩擦和问题对创意过程至关重要，它们让你停下来，以不同的视角看待问题，或故意打破某些设计规则，因为这就是你的选择。

And so there's these moments of bugs and friction and things that are actually so important to the process of creativity that sort of make you stop and take a different look or decide to break a certain design rule intentionally because that's what you decided.

这正是你想要传达的观点。

That's the point of view that you wanna put across.

因此，这些将是未来创意教育中至关重要的方面。

And so these are the types of things that are gonna be so important to creative education going forward.

此外，诚实地讲，现在正在教授的一系列技能在未来将完全不再相关。

And then, honestly, there's gonna be a set of skills that are taught now that are not gonna be relevant at all in the future.

我觉得这没什么关系。

And I think that's okay.

我本科的前两年让我显得很过时，但我们完全不允许使用电脑。

The first two years of my undergrad was gonna date me, but we were not allowed to use a computer at all.

我们必须手工完成所有工作，因为这仍然是过程中非常重要的部分。

We had to do everything by hand because that was still a very important part of the process.

我非常怀疑现在还有学校这么做，但随着技术进步，有些技能会过时，同时也会出现一些新的技能。

I highly doubt there's schools that do that anymore, but there's certain skills that go as technology advances, but there's other new ones that you learn.

我对此感到非常兴奋，因为这正是我们拥抱人性、拥抱我们独特、古怪和与众不同之处，并充分利用这些特质的时刻。

I'm so excited about this because this really is a moment for us to embrace our humanity and embrace what makes us special and weird and unique and really capitalize on that.

能跟我们讲讲你和Adobe与帕森斯设计学院合作，重新思考设计教育的项目吗？

Tell us about the work that you and Adobe are doing partnering with Parsons to try to rethink design education.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们正在与他们合作。

So we're partnering with them.

我们决定把这个合作称为‘非生成式合作’，每次我说出这个名字，人们都会露出奇怪的表情。

We decided to call it the partnership Not Generated, and I get a lot of odd looks from people when I say that.

你知道的？

You know?

哦，这是一个非生成式合作。

Oh, it's a not generated partnership.

他们说：‘这难道不是关于探索生成式人工智能及其对创造力的影响吗？’

And they say, well, isn't it about exploring generative AI and the impact on creativity?

我说：‘当然，没错。’

And I say, absolutely, yes.

这是有意为之的。

It's intentional.

我们选择这个名字是为了引发一些讨论，或许能吸引那些对此持怀疑态度或不愿接触它的学生和教职员工。

We chose the name to start some discourse and to maybe interest students and faculty who were not so sure about it, or maybe they don't wanna touch it.

我们认为，围绕这一主题的讨论和对话真的非常重要。

We think that that discourse and that conversation around this is really, really important.

还有什么人比帕森斯设计学院——这所著名的创意职业院校，以及开发这些工具的Adobe——更适合成为引领这一事业的合作伙伴呢？

And who better to be partners in leading this but Parsons, The New School, very well known creative career school, and Adobe, the one who builds the tools.

因此，很多工作并不聚焦于如何使用像Cursor这样的新工具，因为正如我所说，新工具几乎每天都在出现。

And so a lot of this is less around Cursor's how to use these new tools because, like I said, there's new tools every other day.

如果我们愿意，三十分钟内就能开发出一个新工具。

We can make a new tool in thirty minutes if we want.

但真正重要的是我们一直在讨论的问题：这需要如何改变？

But it's really around what we've been talking about, which is thinking about how does this need to change?

在一个你可以用任何东西做任何事情的未来，哪些技能是重要的？

What skills are important for a future where you can do anything with anything?

深入探讨版权意味着什么？

Having deep conversations about what does copyright mean?

可持续性意味着什么？

What does sustainability mean?

在这个领域中，责任意味着什么？

What does responsibility mean within this sphere?

思考在这个由机器生成如此多内容的世界中的产品公平性，而机器没有道德指南针。

Thinking about product equity in this world where so much is generated by machines, they have no moral compass.

这是一个我们可以解决的设计挑战。

That's a design challenge that we can solve.

可持续性这一部分，这些都是设计挑战。

The sustainability piece, these are all design challenges.

因此，确保学生了解其中涉及的所有要素，并围绕这些内容展开讨论，这才是真正能塑造未来的关键——今天在校的学生，正是未来能够解决我们面临的一些挑战的人。

And so making sure that the students are aware of all of the elements that go into this and having conversations around it, that's really what's going to inform the future is these students who are in school today are the future who can solve some of these challenges that we face.

这真的令人兴奋。

And so it's really exciting.

我们接下来还有几场活动。

We've got a couple more events coming.

我非常期待从中产生的成果，因为我们已经就‘在这个可以随心所欲创造一切的世界中，生活意味着什么’这一话题进行了许多非常精彩的讨论。

I'm really excited about what's gonna come out of it because we've already had a lot of really great conversations around what does it mean to live in this world where you can make anything with anything.

在短暂的广告后，我们继续这场对话。

We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

《Design Better》由我们的合作伙伴 Wix Studio 赞助。

Design Better is brought to you by our pals at Wix Studio.

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现在回到节目。

And now back to the show.

我想知道，我们的学生在这些项目中是否有机会来示范如何使用这些工具。

I wonder if there's some interesting opportunities our students in these types of programs to model ways to use these tools.

举个例子，我和亚伦为我们做的很多帖子创作插图。

And one example I'm thinking of is Aaron and I produce our illustrations for a lot of the posts that we do.

如果我们有预算，肯定会聘请一位插画师，但我们是个小团队，所以经常得自己动手。

If we had the budget, we'd definitely hire an illustrator, but we're a little team, and so we often have to take that on ourselves.

至少对我来说，最有效的方法是先用提示生成一个糟糕的初稿，然后我手绘一些更贴近这种风格的草图，或者提供一些人工反馈，随着时间推移，效果会越来越好。

And at least for me, I find the most effective way is to maybe start with a prompt and get something terrible, and then I'll sketch something, hand draw something more like this, or provide it some human feedback, and over time it starts to get better.

我会把它导入 Photoshop，在几个地方使用生成式功能，让整体看起来不那么像 AI 生成的，然后再手工绘制一些细节。

I'll throw it into Photoshop and use the generative feel in a few areas to make things less AI looking essentially, and then hand draw some things.

所以这是一个来回往复、不断迭代的过程，某种程度上依赖于我自己的技能。

So there's a back and forth, there's iteration, and it's leaning on my own skills to some degree.

我过去经常画插图，尤其是在年轻的时候，但 AI 能快速生成非常细致的图像，我可以在此基础上进行调整，这也很有力量。

I used to do a lot of illustrations, especially in my kind of younger adulthood, but also the power of the AI to generate something really detailed drawing very quickly that I can adjust.

所以，是的，我觉得在教育领域可能存在这样的机会。

So, yeah, I wonder if there's opportunities there in the kind of education field.

对。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I think there totally is.

回到帕森斯的合作，我曾在一堂课上做过一次工作坊，Adobe 有一个叫 Firefly Boards 的产品，这是一种自由形式的生成式头脑风暴工具。

Going back to the Parsons partnership, I did a workshop in one of the classes, and Adobe has a product called Firefly Boards, and it's sort of this free form sort of brainstorming generative tool.

那次工作坊的主题是探讨如何利用生成式 AI 快速产生大量创意，然后再手动筛选和深化其中一些想法。

And it was just a workshop around how you could use generative AI to really quickly come up with a bunch of different ideas to then sort of hone in and work from maybe more manually.

工作坊结束时，一名学生说：我之前一直担心在工作中使用生成式 AI，因为我怕它会让我觉得一切都能靠自己完成。

And at the end of the workshop, one of the students says, you know, I've been so worried about using Gen AI in my work because I thought it would make me feel like I could do everything on my own.

她说，但经过这次体验后，她发现这反而激发了她更强的协作欲望。

She's like, but after playing around in this, she's like, it actually makes me wanna collaborate more.

因为她看到的是，能够借鉴他人的风格，与自己的创作融合，就像你所说的那样，通过这种来回互动，加入一点自己的风格，然后看看最终会诞生什么。

Because what she saw is this ability to take someone else's style and remix it in with something you've done, and then exactly like you said, having this sort of back and forth conversation, put a little bit of your style into it, and then see what comes out.

亚历杭德罗·切韦达是我们Adobe工作室团队的执行创意总监之一，负责所有Max品牌的创意工作。

Alejandro Cheveda, he's one of the executive creative directors on our studio team at Adobe that does all the Max branding.

几年前他们做Max品牌时，正是这样开始的：先让团队每个人画草图。

That's exactly how they did the Max branding a couple years ago, is they started out with drawings from everyone on their team.

然后把这些草图输入到Firefly中。

They put it into Firefly.

得到了一些初步结果。

They got something out.

接着他们做了一些调整。

They made some more adjustments.

你再画一些图，或者在Photoshop里做一些拼贴，再放回去。

You did some more drawing, maybe did some collage in Photoshop, put it back in.

于是，这变成了一种与机器非常有趣的互动过程，机器能给你带来各种意想不到的结果。

And so it was this really fun sort of back and forth with the machine that can give you all of these unexpected results.

这就是我们思考工作方式的一种途径。

That's one of the ways that we're looking at how do we work.

我最喜欢和这两类人——希望了解如何将生成式AI融入他们工作流程的团队，以及学生——一起做的一件事，就是给他们布置一个任务：或许是一个他们已经做过的项目，要求他们必须完全使用生成式技术来完成。

And one of my favorite things to do with both teams who are interested in thinking about how they can bring generative AI into their process and students is give them an assignment where maybe it's one that they've already done and say, you have to do this entire thing using only generative technology.

你不能进入Photoshop手动修图。

You cannot go into Photoshop and retouch something manually.

你必须全程使用生成式方法完成。

You have to do the entire thing generatively.

很快你就能发现，什么时候使用生成式AI是合理的，什么时候则完全不适用。

And really quickly, you find out where it makes sense to use Gen AI and where it absolutely does not.

我来给你举个例子。

And I'll give you an example.

我曾和一家客户——一家化妆品公司——合作，他们想尝试完全用生成式技术制作一个30秒的付费广告，唯一的例外是他们公司内部有一些规定。

I was working with one of our customers, a cosmetics company, and they wanted to try to do a thirty second paid spot end to end generative with the exception of they had some guidelines within their company.

他们不生成人物，也不生成自己的产品，这两点在行业里很常见。

They don't generate people, and they don't generate their product, which are very common.

我们给自己设定了三周的截止日期，从开始到结束，我们生成了——我不是开玩笑——成千上万个素材。

We gave ourselves a three week deadline, start to finish, and we generated, I'm not even joking, thousands of assets.

他们的整个创意团队用完了生成式AI的积分额度。

Their entire creative team ran out of generative credits.

他们的整个创意团队，而且因为我供职于Adobe，你知道，我是少数不用为这个问题发愁的幸运者之一，最后不得不替他们完成这个项目。

Their entire creative team and because I work at Adobe, you know, I'm one of the lucky people who don't have that problem, I had to end up finishing this thing for them.

最终，他们对结果非常满意，但决定不将这个作品公之于众，因为整个片段中有一条丝带，

And at the end of the day, they were really happy with it, but they decided not to put this out into the world because there's a ribbon that goes through the entire sequence.

而这条丝带，无论我们怎么尝试，在几乎每一个时刻都违背了物理规律。

And the ribbon, at almost every point in time, no matter how much we tried, was defying physics.

有些事情，还是得用老办法来做。

There's certain things that just do it the old fashioned way.

我认为这个练习对那些担心自己在职业生涯中不再被需要的人特别有帮助。

And I think that that exercise is so good for people who are worried about not being needed in their career.

你的职业正在发生变化，而你得以专注于真正有趣的部分。

Your career is changing, and you get to focus on the stuff that's actually a lot of fun.

我喜欢讲这个故事，因为它很好地说明了，无论你多么努力，试图端到端地生成一切都不会让你满意。

I love telling that story because I think it's a really good example of no matter how hard you try, you're not gonna be happy if you try to generate something end to end.

就连我认识的那些做AI短片的人，也需要大量的人来完成制作，比如配音和其他各种工作。

Even the people I know who do AI short films or something like that, they're still using so many people to put this together, to do the voices, to do all these other things.

创意是一种人类体验，我可以肯定地说，这种体验永远不会消失。

Creativity is a human experience, and that, I can guarantee you, is not going away.

我喜欢这种来回互动的想法——你可能自己先开始，或者用生成式AI提供一个初始提示，然后不断反馈调整。

I like this idea of, like, the ping ponging back and forth where you've got something that maybe you start with yourself, or you get some starting point prompt that comes back from generative AI.

去年，我们听到很多人谈论的主题是代理式AI，即多个工具、多个AI协同完成复杂任务的不同部分。

So last year, the key theme that we heard a lot of people talking about was agentic AI, having multiple tools, multiple AIs doing different pieces of a complex puzzle.

你认为这种模式在大型设计团队中会如何体现？

How do you see that playing out in larger design teams?

这看起来可能会非常有帮助。

It seems like that would be potentially very helpful.

我们最近采访了冬奥会宣传活动的主设计师。

We recently talked to the lead designer on the Winter Olympics campaign.

那个项目的规模之大，我简直难以想象，你需要创建的素材太多了。

Just the vastness of that, I couldn't even really fathom, like, all the assets you would have to create.

但我不确定。

But I don't know.

如今，代理式AI是如何融入创意过程的？

How is agentic AI fitting into the creative process these days?

我认为人们最常使用它的地方是早期的头脑风暴阶段，比如看看这个简报、数据，或者任何需要输入的内容，然后给我几个可能的方向。

I think the most common place that people are using it for is that sort of, like, early brainstorming and, hey, take a look at this, the brief and the data and whatever it is that needs to go into this, and maybe give me a few different directions that I could go.

所以，在初期阶段，一些方向性的部分我觉得非常合适，因为这就是你用它的地方。

So it's sort of, like, at the beginning, some of the directionality pieces of it, I think, make a lot of sense because that's what you look at it.

机器真正擅长的是什么？

What are machines really great at?

它们擅长整合数据。

They're great at synthesizing data.

你知道的？

You know?

它们在这方面太擅长了。

They're so good at it.