杰里米·法udi：可持续发展教授解析为何大多数可持续设计尚未开始便已失败

可持续设计关乎为每个人创造一个更加富足、公正的未来。

Sustainable design is about making a more abundant, just future for everyone.

它关乎解决世界上的问题，同时产生积极影响，让您的产品、服务或系统在其整个生命周期中，都像用户初次接收时那样美好。

It's about fixing the problems in the world and also making a positive impact, making your products or services or systems as beautiful throughout their entire life as they are in that moment that the user receives them.

设计是一门解决问题的学科。

Design is a problem solving discipline.

我们研究用户需求，探索解决方案，制作产品，并将其交付。

We research user needs, we explore solutions, we make things, and we ship them.

但有一个重要的利益相关者常常被对话忽略。

But one important stakeholder is often missing from the conversation.

那就是我们所生活的世界。

It's the world that we live in.

我们设计的产品对环境造成了怎样的代价？

What toll do the products we design impose upon our environment?

可持续性是设计学科中不可或缺的一部分，但大多数设计师并未理解这一点。

Sustainability is an essential part of the discipline of design, but not understood by most designers.

如果我们有一份指南能让我们快速上手就好了。

If only we had a manual to get us up to speed.

今天我们邀请的嘉宾杰里米·法udi，花了大量时间研究、撰写和思考环境影响与设计的关系。

Our guest today, Jeremy Faludi, has spent a lot of time researching, writing, and thinking about environmental impact and design.

他是一位研究者，也是《从愿景到行动：可持续设计》的作者。

He's a researcher and author of Sustainable Design From Vision to Action.

杰里米数十年来帮助公司超越良好的意愿，转向基于证据的决策，曾与史丹利黑德克公司合作，并在代尔夫特理工大学率先开展生物材料3D打印研究。

Jeremy spent decades helping companies move beyond good intentions to evidence based decisions, from working with Stanley Black and Decker to pioneering biomaterial three d printing at Delft University of Technology.

你认为大型语言模型消耗多少电力？

How much power do you think large language models use?

答案令人惊讶。

The answer is surprising.

我们将探讨一家吹风机公司为何花了九个月时间专注于塑料减量，系统思维如何揭示我们设计的真实环境影响，以及可持续3D打印背后的材料研究。

We explore why a hair dryer company wasted nine months of engineering time on plastic reductions, how systems thinking reveals the true environmental impact of our designs, and the materials research going into sustainable three d printing.

这里是《更好设计》，我们探索设计与技术交汇处的创造力。

This is Design Better, where we explore creativity at the intersection of design and technology.

我是埃利·沃里。

I'm Eli Wohrey.

我是亚伦·沃尔特。

And I'm Aaron Walter.

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If you're hearing this, you're not currently on our premium subscriber feed.

Design Better 的高级订阅用户可以每周收听新一期节目。

Design Better premium subscribers enjoy weekly episodes.

那就是每月四期，而不是只有两期，而且全部没有广告。

That's four episodes per month rather than just two, and all of them are ad free.

此外，你还将收到邀请，参加我们每月与设计和科技领域最聪明人士的问答互动。

Plus, you'll get an invitation to our monthly AMAs with the smartest folks in design and tech.

如果你选择年费订阅，还会获得我们的工具包，里面收录了我们最爱的设计和生产力工具，比如 Perplexity、Miro、Read AI 等。

And if you subscribe at the annual level, you'll also get our toolkit, a collection of our favorite design and productivity tools like Perplexity, Miro, Read AI, and more.

你将听到本集的预览片段，但如果你想收听完整对话，请考虑在 designbetterpodcast.com/subscribe 订阅我们的高级服务。

You'll hear a preview of this episode, but if you'd like to hear the full conversation, please consider becoming a premium subscriber at designbetterpodcast.com/subscribe.

通过我们的奖学金计划，该播客对所有人开放。

The podcast is available to everyone through our scholarship program.

所以如果你负担不起订阅费用，只需发送邮件至 subscriptions@thecuriositydepartment.com。

So if you can't afford a subscription, just shoot us an email at subscriptions@thecuriositydepartment.com.

我们会帮助你。

We'll help you out.

我们将在短暂的广告后回到对话。

We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

Design Better 由 Wix Studio 赞助推出，这是一个专为所有网页创作者打造的平台，帮助他们大规模设计、开发和管理卓越的网页项目。

Design Better is brought to you by Wix Studio, the platform built for all web creators to design, develop, and manage exceptional web projects at scale.

了解更多，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Learn more at wix.com/studio.

现在，回到节目。

And now, back to the show.

杰里米·法udi，欢迎来到 Design Better 播客。

Jeremy Faludi, welcome to the Design Better podcast.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

很高兴来到这里。

It's good to be here.

很高兴有你来。

It's really nice to have you.

这些年来我们多次有过交集。

We've crossed paths a lot over the years.

我们都出自斯坦福的产品设计领域。

We both came out of Stanford product design world.

在开始录制之前，我们聊了聊，我们有没有当面见过？

Before we hit record, we were talking, have we met in person, have we not?

有点记不清了，但肯定我们经常互发邮件。

A little unclear, but certainly we've exchanged emails a lot.

我曾推荐过一些有可持续发展问题的学生去找你。

I've sent students your way who have sustainability questions.

所以我们认识已经很久了。

So we've known each other for quite a while.

很高兴能有机会和你更深入地聊一聊。

So it's a pleasure having a chance to talk with you in a more extended way.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Definitely.

我非常期待。

I'm looking forward to it.

你出了一本新书，我想我们的对话很大一部分会围绕这本书展开。

So you have a new book out, and I think a good portion of our conversation will focus on that.

你能稍微谈一谈这本书吗？是什么促使你投入这样一项充满热情的事业？

Do you wanna talk a little bit about the book and what drove you to do that kind of labor of love?

亚伦和我都清楚，让一本书问世需要付出大量努力。

Aaron and I both know it's a lot of work to make a book happen in the world.

所以，是的，跟我们说说是什么促使你做这件事的。

So, yeah, tell us what drove you to do that.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这基本上是我希望在二十五年前刚接触这个领域时就能拥有的书，因为当时很多关于可持续性的书都太过抽象。

I mean, it's basically the book that I wish I had had twenty five years ago when I was getting into this stuff, because a lot of the books on sustainability are very high concept.

它们讲的都是原则，却缺乏具体的细节，比如你如何在实际中落实这些内容，又如何将其融入现有的产品设计流程？

You know, they're, like, all about the principles, but they lack the nitty gritty, like, how do you get this stuff done on the ground, and how do you integrate it into your existing product design workflow?

所以，这就是主要的原因。

So that was the main thing.

此外，还有一些次要的原因，比如我看到太多绿色洗白的现象，但我并不认为大多数绿色洗白是恶意的。

And then there was also secondary things like I see so much greenwashing out there, and I don't think that most greenwashing is evil.

我不觉得像很多人认为的那样，大多数绿色洗白是存心不良的。

I don't think most of it is malicious like a lot of people do.

我认为90%的绿色洗白只是出于善意的无知。

I think 90% of greenwashing is just well intentioned ignorance.

这是由于使用了薄弱的设计方法，采用普通的设计方式，同时抱着绿色的念头，希望这能神奇地引导你实现更可持续的设计。

It's the result of sort of using weak design methods, using normal design methods while thinking green thoughts, and hoping that that will magically lead you to actually more sustainable designs.

但问题是，除非你使用真正的可持续设计工具来帮助你做出基于证据的决策，否则你仍然在凭直觉和道听途说做决定。

But the problem is that you're still making decisions by hunch and hearsay unless you're using real sustainable design tools that can help you make evidence based decisions.

我们能不能先明确几个概念？

Could we level set on a couple things?

你能为我们那些可能没听过这个词的观众定义一下‘漂绿’吗？

Could you define greenwashing for our audience who may not have heard that?

也许还可以谈谈可持续性这个概念，以及为什么它很重要。

And maybe just also talk about the idea of sustainability and why that's important.

我认为，今天任何关注时事的人都知道，我们面临着巨大的环境问题和社会问题。

I think anyone who's paying attention today knows that there are huge environmental problems and social problems.

可持续设计旨在为所有人创造一个更美好、更富足、更公正的未来。

And sustainable design is about making a more beautiful, abundant, just future for everyone.

它关乎解决世界上的问题，同时产生积极影响，让你的产品、服务或系统在其整个生命周期中，都像用户接收那一刻那样美好。

It's about fixing the problems in the world and also making a positive impact in the world, making your products or services or systems as beautiful throughout their entire life as they are in that moment that the user receives them.

在产品的后端和前端都做到美观，这样它们就不会在用户面前看起来很美好，却在背后因气候变化、有毒化学物质和劳工剥削而造成无数伤害。

Making things beautiful on the back end as well as the front end so that they're not looking beautiful for the user, but then causing all sorts of deaths by climate change and toxic chemicals and labor exploitation in the background.

这是为了让世界变得更美好、更快乐、更富足。

It's making the world better, happier, and more abundant for everyone.

而绿色洗白，就是让你的产品看起来是环保的，但实际上并不环保，这可能有两种不同情况。

And then greenwashing is making it look like your product is green without actually being green, and that can be potentially two different things.

一种是说一些不真实的事情，另一种是说一些真实但毫无意义的事情。

That can be saying something that's not true, or it can be saying something that is true but not meaningful.

很久以前，大概是十五年或二十年前，我曾为一家生产吹风机的公司做过短期咨询。

Like, a long time ago, I don't know, like fifteen, twenty years ago, there was a company that I did a short consulting gig for where they make hair dryers.

他们为自己感到自豪，因为他们重新设计了产品，将吹风机外壳的塑料用量减少了大约20%。

And they were all proud of themselves because they had done this redesign where they had reduced the amount of plastic in the hair dryer case by, I forget, maybe 20% or something.

这本是他们要大肆宣传的重大成果。

And this was gonna be their big announcement.

他们打算投入大量营销资源和资金，为此还花了六个月、九个月甚至更久的设计与工程时间才实现。

They were gonna put a bunch of marketing energy and money behind it, and they had spent, I don't know, six months or nine months or something of design and engineering time making this happen.

我算了算这笔账，发现真正对他们的产品产生重大影响的是什么。

And I ran the numbers on it and, like, what actually made the big impacts for their product.

而这种塑料节省量简直可以忽略不计。

And this plastic savings was like a rounding error.

我的意思是，电吹风在使用寿命内消耗的能源，其环境影响是所有制造环节总和的十倍，而且制造环节中的环境影响只有很小一部分来自塑料。

I mean, the energy used by a hairdryer over the life of the hairdryer causes 10 times the environmental impact of all of the manufacturing put together, and, you know, only a small percentage of the manufacturing impacts were from the plastic.

所以，尽管他们所宣称的内容是真实的，但却是无意义的。

So even though the claim that they were making was true, it was bullshit.

这完全毫无意义。

It was meaningless.

所以我不得不告诉他们：我很遗憾，但你们刚刚浪费了六到九个月的开发时间和资金，投入在工程团队和设计团队上，现在又要浪费数百万美元在你们计划的营销活动上。

And so I had to tell them, I hate to break it to you guys, but you just wasted, like, six or nine months of development time and money on your engineering teams and your design teams, and you're about to waste how many more millions of dollars on this marketing campaign that you have planned.

而如果你早点找我，我就能提前做这个分析，向你们展示真正产生影响的环节，这样你们就能把时间和资金用在真正能带来有效改变的地方。

Whereas, if you had talked to me before, then I could have done this analysis before, and I could have shown you the numbers of where your impacts are so that you could put your time and money to where it will actually make effective change.

他们是怎么接受这个说法的？

How did they receive that?

有点艰难。

It was a little rough.

确实，他们没有再雇用我。

It's true they did not hire me again.

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

杰里米，

Jeremy,

很多有环保意识的人，可能会考虑产品的制造方式和使用方式，但很少从产品生命周期或更系统的角度来思考。

a lot of folks, you know, if we're sustainably minded, we might think about how the product was manufactured and how we use it, but we don't think of it from a sort of product life cycle or more systems thinking kind of perspective.

也许你可以谈谈这一点，因为这不仅仅是你购买和使用产品的时候，产品最终去向哪里，以及它影响了哪些系统。

Maybe you could talk about that a bit because it's not just when you buy the product and use it, where does it end up and what systems does it affect too.

这真的很重要。

That's a really important thing.

因此，我们的书中有两章是关于系统思维的，其中一章我推荐给所有从事可持续产品设计的人，因为这是更简单的系统思维版本：你从思考自己的产品开始，然后扩展到产品所用的所有材料，以及整个生命周期——就像你所说的，从原材料提取、运输、制造，到用户如何使用，以及产品寿命结束后的处理。

And so we actually have two chapters in the book about systems thinking, one of which I recommend for basically everybody doing any kind of sustainable product design because it's the simpler version of systems thinking where you start out just thinking about your product, but then the whole bill of materials that goes into it and the whole life cycle, like you were saying, from material extraction and transport manufacturing to what the user does with it and what happens at the end of its life.

因此，通过整个生命周期来审视你的产品影响非常重要，这样你才能看清优先事项，也就是那些主要的影响所在。

And it's really important to look at the impacts of your product through that whole life cycle so that you can see where the priorities are, you know, where the big impacts are.

就像我之前说的吹风机，这家公司只关注制造环节，但真正的环境影响其实发生在用户使用阶段。

Like I was saying with the hairdryer, this company was focusing on the manufacturing side, but really the impacts were in the user use phase.

不同产品的具体情况是不同的。

That's different for different products.

对于家具来说，主要影响在于材料选择，也就是原材料的开采和加工过程。

For furniture, the impacts are mostly in the material choice, you know, in the raw material extraction and processing.

对于其他产品，影响可能主要出现在使用寿命结束阶段。

With other products, it could be big impacts in the end of life.

这完全取决于你的产品是什么。

It just depends by your product.

在某些产品中，甚至不是产品本身造成了最大的影响。

And in some products, it's actually not even your product itself that is the biggest impact.

比如，我的一些研究是关于绿色3D打印的，关于3D打印与其他制造方式相比是否环保，目前存在很多争论。

Like, some of my research is on green three d printing, and there's a lot of argument about how three d printing is or is not compared to other manufacturing methods.

但对于航空航天行业的零部件，比如飞机上那些精致的轻质钛合金支架，其影响并不在零部件本身。

But for aerospace industry parts, you know, like fancy lightweight titanium brackets in an airplane or something, the impacts are not in the part itself.

最大的影响在于飞机在其使用寿命期间消耗的燃油量。

The biggest impacts are in how much fuel the airplane uses during its life.

因此，即使3D打印的环境影响是传统制造方式的十倍，对你而言，采用3D打印来制造产品和系统仍然是更好的选择。

And so even if three d printing had 10 times the environmental impact of conventional manufacturing, it would still be a better choice for you to make your products and systems.

而且，我的一些学生几年前为一家公司重新设计了一款机上咖啡机，不是今年，而是前年。

And, you know, like, some of my students did a redesign of an in flight coffee maker for a company, not this year, but the year before.

所以，这款咖啡机最大的环境影响并不在咖啡机本身。

So the biggest environmental impacts of that coffee maker are not in the coffee maker.

而在于飞机燃烧的航空燃油。

They're in the jet fuel that the airplane is burning.

如果你从系统层面来思考问题，就能发现这些关键点，从而正确设定优先级，让你的时间和资金真正用在刀刃上。

And if you're thinking about things at the system level, you can spot those and set your priorities correctly so that you spend your time and money in a way that will actually be effective.

可持续性与数字设计之间有什么联系？

How does sustainability connect with digital design?

我觉得我们的很多听众都来自软件领域或数字化设计领域，他们可能会有这样的想法：我又不生产实体物件，所以我的工作和可持续性没什么强关联。

I think a lot of our listeners are in the software space or digital design space, and they may have the feeling that, okay, I'm not making physical objects, therefore, there's not a strong sustainability component to what I'm doing.

这个想法对吗？还是说这里面存在什么误区？

Is that a correct assumption, or is there a flaw there?

这个假设绝对不对，原因有这么几个。

It's definitely not a correct assumption for several reasons.

首先，所有软件都要依托硬件才能运行。

Like, first of all, all software runs on hardware.

对吧？

Right?

所以你写的代码不仅会让机器消耗能源，还会让机器消耗资源。

So your code will cause a machine to use energy, and it will also cause the machine to use resources.

很多人都希望自己的笔记本电脑或者手机能用久一点，但他们觉得自己必须更新换代，才能运行最新的操作系统、最新版的游戏软件或是其他任何在用的软件。

A lot of people would love to keep their laptop longer or their phone longer, but they feel like they have to upgrade in order to run the latest OS or to run the latest version of their gaming software or whatever software they have.

因此，软件往往会通过它所要求的硬件配置以及自身消耗的能源，来产生环境影响。

So software often drives environmental impacts through the hardware that it requires and the energy that it uses.

而且，软件还更直接地影响着现实世界。

And then even more directly than that, a lot of software touches the real world as well.

比如，如果你在设计一个电子商务网站，你的客户会通过你的网站购买实物商品。

You know, if you're designing an ecommerce website, well, your customers are buying physical stuff through your website.

因此，你可以引导用户购买更环保的产品，比如购买二手商品、翻新商品，或者只是购买以更可持续方式制造的新产品。

So you could steer your users to buy greener things, like buy used things, buy refurbished things, or even just buy new things that are made in a more sustainable way.

软件可以产生巨大的影响。

And software can have a huge impact.

我实际上认为，过去五十年来公共交通领域最大的创新，就是谷歌地图在手机上提供的公交导航功能。

I actually think the biggest innovation in public transit in the last fifty years is Google Maps doing public transit directions on your phone.

因为在那之前，即使你住在城市里，想弄清楚该坐哪路公交车去另一个街区都很难。

Because before that, it was even hard to figure out what bus you wanna take to a neighborhood across town in a city that you already live in if you're not used to taking a bus over there.

你需要查时刻表、找站点，还要搞清楚从站点怎么步行到最终目的地，诸如此类的麻烦事。

You know, you need to look up the schedule and where the stops are and all this kind of thing, and then how you walk from where the stop is to your actual destination, blah blah blah blah blah.

有了手机上的谷歌地图，我无数次在从未去过的城市、甚至在我不懂的语言环境中，有时甚至是没有字母表的语言环境中，成功使用了公共交通。

With Google Maps on my phone, I can and have countless times used public transit in a city I had never been to before, in a language I don't even speak, sometimes with languages that don't have an alphabet.

因此，它成为现实生活中可持续发展的一个绝佳推动者。

So it's this amazing enabler of sustainability in real life.

或者举个例子，如果你的旅行网站，可以推荐当地人去的地方，或者建议他们乘坐火车而非飞机、汽车出行。

Or for example, like, if your travel website, you could recommend local places to people or trips that they can make by train and not flying, or not by car, or whatever.

或者软件还能帮助建筑提高能源效率。

Or software also helps buildings be more energy efficient.

我不知道你家有没有Nest恒温器，但这款产品的核心卖点就是提升能源效率，从而帮人们省钱。

I don't know if you have a Nest thermostat at home, but the whole shtick with that product is better energy efficiency, and that saves people money.

事实上，可持续发展常常能为公司和个人节省开支。

In fact, sustainability very often saves companies and people money.

人们只是有一种奇怪的心理重新归类：一旦开始省钱，就不再把它视为可持续发展举措。

There's just this weird mental recategorization that people do where as soon as it starts saving money, people no longer categorize it as a sustainability initiative.

他们把它重新归类为成本节约举措，这很奇怪。

They recategorize it as a cost saving initiative, which is weird.

但无论如何，比如产品服务系统，如今很多软件已经从一次性购买转变为订阅付费模式。

But anyway or like product service systems, a lot of software these days has changed from buying the software to subscription payment models.

你也可以对产品这样做。

You can also do that for products.

比如Zipcar是一个汽车共享系统，你知道的，你不需要买自己的车。

Like Zipcar is a car share system where, you know, you don't buy your own car.

相反，你有一个应用程序，可以使用停放在城市各处的多种汽车。

Instead, you have this app that lets you use various cars that are parked around the city.

这大大减少了汽车对环境的影响，因为每一辆被10个人共享的汽车，都能将制造过程中的环境影响降低90%，除非你投放的汽车数量过多、分布太广，反而超过了所有用户原本会购买的总量——但这种情况不太可能发生。

And that radically reduces the environmental impacts of cars because every one car that is shared between 10 different people, that is cutting the environmental impacts of manufacturing by 90%, unless you have so many cars in so many locations that it's more than all of your users would have bought, but that's unlikely.

像Zipcar、自行车共享、滑板车共享这样的系统，都需要复杂的软件来追踪产品、解锁和锁定以及管理它们。

Systems like Zipcar or BicycleShare, ScooterShare, all that stuff, they require fancy software to track the products and unlock and lock and manage them.

运行这些软件还能帮助公司做出决策，比如我们该购买多少辆滑板车？

And running that software also helps the company make the decisions like how many of these scooters are we gonna buy?

我们会不会因为投放了过多的滑板车而适得其反，导致它们变成垃圾，或者被人滥用、乱扔之类的问题？

Are we actually going to make things worse by having too many scooters around, and then they become trash or people abuse them and throw them around, stuff like that.

因此，软件可以推动社会可持续性。

And so software can drive social sustainability.

比如，Facebook 可以重新设计它的算法，以增强社区凝聚力和幸福感。

Like, Facebook could just redo its algorithm to build community cohesion and happiness.

事实上，这种事情已经有人做过。

In fact, that's a thing that has been done.

如果你查一下2014年台湾的这个案例，当时台湾政府的满意度不到10%。

If you look up this case study of Taiwan in 2014, Taiwanese government's approval rating was under 10%.

当时人们甚至占领了议会大楼进行抗议，他们推出了一款名为 vTaiwan 的社交媒体平台，这是一个让民众提出议题、讨论和辩论的平台。

Like, people were physically occupying their parliament building to protest, and they put out this social media platform called vTaiwan that was this discussion platform that let people raise issues and talk about them and argue about them.

但它的算法专门突出那些能跨越讨论中不同立场群体的帖子，实际上实现了法律的众包起草。

But its algorithm specifically highlighted posts that bridged across disagreeing groups in the discussion, and it effectively crowdsourced the writing of laws.

因此，在短短几周内，他们解决了多年争论都未能解决的问题。

And so in a matter of weeks, they solved some problems that years and years of debate had not solved.

杰里米，一个即使人们关心可持续目标也可能遇到的问题是，如何让产品更可持续并不总是显而易见的。

Jeremy, one issue that folks might do, even if they're interested in sustainable goals, is that it's not always intuitive how to make a product more sustainable.

我记得几年前有过一场争论，关于操作系统中的深色模式和浅色模式，到底深色模式是否更省电？

I remember a debate, this was maybe a few years ago, in dark mode versus light mode and in OS, like, does the dark mode save more energy?

亮色模式呢，这并不是一个简单的答案，但除了你的书之外——我猜这本书会是了解系统性思维的绝佳资源——人们还能去哪里学习如何更可持续地设计产品呢？

Does the light mode you know, and it's not necessarily a straightforward answer, but other than your book, which I assume would be a great resource for more kind of systems level thinking, where can people turn to think about products signed more sustainably?

这本书确实包含了大量这方面的资源。

The book does have a ton of resources for things like that.

比如，我们有很多查表、解释和循序渐进的练习。

Like, we have a lot of lookup tables and explanations and exercises, you know, step by step.

比如，教你如何分析你的系统或产品中哪些部分消耗了最多的能量——不只是功率最大，而是真正耗能最多的部分，这样你才能基于证据做出决策，集中时间和精力去改进它们。

Here's how you analyze what parts of your system or product are using the most energy, not just the most power, so that you can again make evidence based decisions on where to focus your time and effort to improve them.

此外，每一章的末尾我们还列出了其他参考资料。

And then we also have lists of other resources at the back of each chapter.

比如，我们有三章分别讲能源使用：基础能源素养、能源效率和能源生产。

So, you know, we've got, like, three different chapters on energy use for general energy literacy, and energy efficiency, and energy generation.

如果你希望你的产品能自行产生可再生能源，比如想做一个太阳能键盘，我们的书能帮你计算需要多大的光伏面板、多大的电池，甚至帮你评估这样做是否值得。

You know, like, if you want your product to generate renewable energy and just power itself, like, if you wanna build a solar powered keyboard or something, our book can help you calculate how big would the PV panels need to be, how big a battery do you need, and even calculate whether you should do that at all.

比如，制造太阳能电池板和电池的隐含环境影响，真的比你用电网电力所节省的能源更多还是更少？

Like, are the embodied impacts of manufacturing that solar panel and battery actually worse or better than the energy that you would save from using grid electricity?

谈到可持续性时很难不提到人工智能，因为人工智能查询的能耗巨大，这正在真正改变我们对能源的认知。

It's hard to talk about sustainability and not talk about AI because the energy consumption of AI queries is gigantic, and it's really kind of changing the way we think about energy.

许多公司正在投资核能和其他能源系统。

There are a lot of companies who are investing in nuclear and other energy systems.

核聚变有望投入应用，前景广阔。

There's lots of hope for nuclear fusion to come online.

我们拭目以待会发生什么。

We'll see what happens with that.

但可持续发展领域对人工智能和能源消耗的讨论是怎样的？

But what's the conversation in the sustainability community about AI and energy consumption?

实际上，人工智能查询本身并不消耗大量能源。

It's actually not the queries for AI that take

真正消耗大量能源的是

a ton of energy.

其实是

It's actually

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If you'd like to continue listening to this conversation, you'll need to subscribe at designbetterpodcast.com/subscribe.

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Once you do, you'll get access to every full length episode, all ad free, monthly AMAs with inspiring people in design and tech, and recordings of all our past AMAs.

通过我们的奖学金计划，任何人都可以免费收听这个播客。

The podcast is available to everyone through our scholarship program.

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If you can't afford a subscription, just email us at subscriptions@thecuriositydepartment.com, and we'll help you out.

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Your support makes design better possible.

通过订阅 designbetterpodcast.com，投资你自己和设计社区。

Invest in yourself and the design community by subscribing at designbetterpodcast.com.

Design Better 由我们的合作伙伴 Wix Studio 赞助播出。

Design Better is brought to you by our pals at Wix Studio.

如果你想拓展你的设计公司或你为客户提供独立服务的业务，光靠一个网站构建器是不够的，你需要 Wix Studio。

If you want to grow your agency or your independent work that you're doing for clients, you need more than just a website builder, you need Wix Studio.

这是一个一体化平台，专为帮助你扩展业务而打造。

It's the all in one platform that's built to help you scale.

你可以通过一个高度灵活、响应迅速的编辑器更智能地设计，从预建的UI元素和模板中自由挑选客户所需的内容。

You can design smarter and a hyper flexible, responsive editor, cherry picking whatever your clients need from pre built UI elements and templates.

你可以提供强大的后端，并内置适用于各行业的电子商务解决方案，让自维护的基础设施自动运行。

You can deliver robust back ends with built in e commerce solutions for every industry, letting self maintaining infrastructure just run itself.

不要再为每个项目重新发明轮子了。

And stop reinventing the wheel for every project.

你可以创建可共享的设计系统，使用可重复利用的资源、应用和组件。

You can create shareable design systems with reusable assets, apps, components.

如果客户的业务增长非常迅速，也完全不用担心。

And if your clients are growing really fast, no sweat.

Wix Studio的AI驱动CMS能将一个布局快速转化为数百个动态页面。

Wix Studio's AI powered CMS lets you turn a single layout into hundreds of dynamic pages.

确实如此。

It's true.

客户增多不再意味着混乱加剧。

More clients no longer has to mean more chaos.

Wix Studio 让你对所有项目有一个集中的视图，实现无缝的实时协作。

Wix Studio gives you one centralized view of every project, and it makes real time collaboration just seamless.

规模化地完成你机构最出色的作品。

Do your agency's best work at scale.

在 Wix Studio 上构建你的下一个项目。

Build your next project on Wix Studio.

这是一个令人惊叹的平台。

It's an incredible platform.

访问 wixstudio.com。

That's wixstudio.com.

了解更多，请访问 wixstudio.com。

Learn more at wixstudio.com.

wixstudio.com。

Wixstudio.com.