回放：帕奥拉·安东内利：设计如何塑造文化

大家好。

Hey folks.

Design Better 最近一直在路上，为设计搜索公司 Wert and Co 的三十周年纪念活动在曼哈顿录制了一期现场节目。

Design Better has been on the road recently recording a live episode in Manhattan for design search firm Wert and Co's thirtieth anniversary.

本期嘉宾包括纽约现代艺术博物馆建筑与设计部高级策展人 Paola Antonelli、微软 AI 设计与用户研究副总裁 Mike Davidson、谷歌风投设计合伙人 Kate Aronowitz、Anthropic 产品设计师 Meaghan Choi，以及 Fast Company 全球设计编辑 Mark Wilson。

Guests for the episode included Paola Antonelli, senior curator in the Department of Architecture and Design at MoMA Mike Davidson, VP of design and user research at Microsoft AI Kate Aronowitz, design partner at Google Ventures Meaghan Choi, product designer at Anthropic and Mark Wilson, global design editor at Fast Company.

在 Aaron 和我从旅行中恢复的同时，为了预热下周播出的现场节目，我们回溯一下对 Paola Antonelli 的采访。

While Aaron and I are catching up from travel, and as a lead in to the live episode airing next week, we're rewinding to our interview with Paola Antonelli.

希望你们喜欢这期节目。

We hope you enjoyed the episode.

如果你还没看过，你知道吗？通过 Design Better Toolkit，你可以节省超过 1600 美元，用于购买热门的生产力工具以及设计和 AI 课程。

And if you haven't checked it out yet, did you know you could save over $1,600 on popular productivity tools and design and AI courses with the Design Better Toolkit?

只需访问 dbtr.co/toolkit 了解更多详情。

Just head over to dbtr.co/toolkit to learn more.

“设计”这个词非常模糊。

The term design is very slippery.

这有点像艺术。

It's a little bit like art.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，你很难给出一个明确的定义。

You know, you can't really give a definition.

我总是觉得，设计是目标与手段的结合。

I always think that it's a coming together of goals and means.

对吧？

Right?

你有一个目标，而这个目标可以是功能性的。

You have a goal, and the goal can be functional.

手段就是材料。

The means are the materials.

所以两者没什么太大区别。

So there's not much difference.

我知道说木材和代码之间有这种联系听起来有点疯狂。

I know that it's kind of crazy to say that between wood and code.

现代艺术博物馆让人联想到梵高的著名作品《星夜》、达利的《记忆的永恒》和安迪·沃霍尔的《坎贝尔汤罐》。

The Museum of Modern Art brings to mind images of Van Gough's famous Starry Night, Salvador Dali's Persistence of Memory, and Andy Warhol's Campbell Soup Cans.

但得益于建筑与设计部的高级策展人保拉·安东内利，MoMA的展览也涵盖了设计在塑造文化与人类体验方面所起的作用。

But thanks to Paola Antonelli, senior curator in the Department of Architecture and Design, MoMA exhibitions also encompass the role design has played in shaping culture and the human experience.

我们与保拉探讨了我们如何

We talk with Paola about how we

通过历史的视角来看待数字设计，过去一百年中一些最重要的设计运动，以及创意过程如何在这些不同运动中演变。

can look at digital design through a historic lens, some of the most important design movements in the past one hundred years, and how the creative process has evolved through these different movements.

我们还谈到了@符号的历史，它被收录在MoMA的永久收藏中，为什么工艺对实验至关重要，以及她所看到的设计教育当前面临的某些挑战。

We also talk about the history of the at symbol, which is in MoMA's permanent collection, why craftsmanship is necessary to experimentation, and some of the current challenges that she sees in design education.

我们希望您喜欢这一集，它是我们的设计历史系列的一部分，后续还将推出关于排版与乔纳森·霍夫勒的对话，以及与巴里·卡茨教授探讨设计的历史与哲学的节目。

We hope you enjoy this episode, which is a part of our series on design history, with upcoming episodes on typography with Jonathan Hoefler and the history and philosophy of design with Professor Barry Katz.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

我们将在短暂的广告后回到对话。

We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

《设计得更好》由Wix Studio倾情呈现，这是一个专为所有网页创作者打造的平台，帮助他们大规模地设计、开发和管理卓越的网页项目。

Design Better is brought to you by Wix Studio, the platform built for all web creators to design, develop, and manage exceptional web projects at scale.

了解更多，请访问 wix.com/studio。

Learn more at wix.com/studio.

现在，我们继续节目。

And now, back to the show.

帕奥拉·安东内利，欢迎来到《设计得更好》播客。

Paola Antonelli, welcome to the Design Better podcast.

谢谢，埃利。

Thank you, Eli.

很高兴来到这里。

I'm glad to be here.

我们非常荣幸能邀请到您。

We're honored to have you here.

您是设计界一位德高望重的人物。

You are a storied figure in the world of design.

对于我们的观众来说，他们大多更关注产品设计和数字软件，可能并不熟悉您的名字。

And for our audience, which often skews a little bit more towards product design and digital software, they may not be familiar with your name.

所以我想我们可以先聊聊您在MoMA的职责，以及可能

So I thought we could start off with just talking about your role at MoMA and maybe a

您是如何走到这一步的。

little bit about how you got there.

当然。

Sure.

我已经在这里工作了二十九年，这确实是一段很长的时间。我最初加入时职位较低，但职责和现在一样，都是负责当代设计的策展工作。

I've been here twenty nine years, which is a really long time, and I started out with my same well, just a lower title, but in my same function to be the curator for contemporary design.

我有建筑学的背景。

I have a background as an architect.

我是意大利人，在米兰学习的建筑。

I'm Italian, and I studied architecture in Milan.

我上学的时候，人非常多。

And when I went to school, it was really crowded.

光是在米兰学建筑的学生就有一万五千人。

We were 15,000 students, only in architecture, only in Milan.

这意味着我们根本没什么实践机会，但理论学得非常扎实。

That meant there was nothing practical that we could do, but we got really, really good theory.

当时普遍认为，建筑或设计在某种程度上是所有设计学科的母体。

It was kind of understood that architecture or design, you know, in a way, was the mother of all design disciplines.

所以你可以去建筑学院学习，然后成为产品设计师、平面设计师、界面设计师、时尚设计师，任何你想到的领域都可以。

So you could go to architecture school and then become product graphic designer, interface designer, fashion designer, you name it.

之后，我作为一名自由策展人从事建筑与设计相关工作。

And after that, I worked as a freelance curator of architecture and design.

我当时在加州大学洛杉矶分校任教。

I was teaching at UCLA.

我来回奔波，作为一名自由策展人，直到我在一本杂志上看到MoMA的职位招聘启事。

I was gallivanting back and forth and I was a freelance curator until I saw a post in a magazine announcing the job opening at MoMA.

所以我回应了杂志上的那则帖子。

And so I answered a post in a magazine.

事情就是这样发生的。

That's how it went.

这太棒了。

That's fantastic.

通过你在MoMA的工作，我肯定你接触到了设计的正统体系，涵盖了设计的全部历史和基础部分。

And through your work at MoMA, I'm sure you're exposed to the canon of design, essentially all the history and the foundational parts of design.

我想知道，如今我们该如何思考这些内容对数字设计工作的意义，以及我们该如何展望未来？

I'm curious how right now can we think about how that applies to maybe our work if we're working in digital design and how do we think of going forward?

我们该如何思考收集和策展这类设计作品呢？

How would we think about collecting and curating those types of works of design?

‘设计’这个词非常模糊。

The term design is very slippery.

它有点像艺术，对吧？

It's a little bit like art, right?

你知道，你很难给它一个明确的定义。

You know, you can't really give a definition.

但说实话，我自己其实用一个定义。

But the truth, I mean, I use one for myself.

我总是觉得，设计是目标与手段的结合，对吧？

I always think that it's a coming together of goals and means, right?

你有一个目标，这个目标可以是功能性的，但功能本身也非常主观，对吧？

You have a goal, and the goal can be functional, but function is also very subjective, right?

你可以认为宠物小蛋是一个功能性物品。

You could think that the Tamagotchi is a functional object.

但除了给你的生活增添烦恼之外，宠物小蛋的功能到底是什么？

But what's the function of the Tamagotchi besides just like inserting anguish in your life?

但如果你以这种方式看待设计，你就可以追溯到第一个轮子。

But if you start thinking of design that way, you can go back to the first wheel.

你可以回溯到过去，把设计也看作是创造农业工具，甚至只是制作长矛来狩猎和采集动物。

You know, you can go back in time and really think of design also as creating the tools for agriculture or even just, you know, spears to hunt and gather animals.

如果你总是从目标与手段的角度来思考，那么手段就是材料。

And if you always think of this idea of goals and means, the means are the materials.

所以，两者之间并没有太大区别。

So, there's not much difference.

我知道说木材和代码之间有这种联系听起来有点疯狂。

I know that it's kind of crazy to say that between wood and code.

对吧？

Right?

某种程度上，它们都是达成目标的手段。

In a way, it's the means to an end.

因此，无论是在我的思维中，还是在我在MoMA的工作与职能中，从砖墙到木制家具再到代码，我都感到非常自在。

So I feel very comfortable going from brick walls to wooden furniture to code, both in my mind and in my function and career here at MoMA.

那么，我们该如何收藏设计呢？

So how do we collect design?

关键在于拥有鲜明的立场，然后在收藏中坚持这一立场。

Well, it's about having a strong viewpoint and then pursuing that viewpoint in your collection.

所以，如果你在做收藏，就必须明确表明你的立场。

So if your collection you have to kind of declare your cards.

对吧？

Right?

所以，如果你的收藏是数字设计，那就坚持这一方向。

So if your collection is a collection of digital design, then you stick to it.

如果是家具收藏，那就坚持这一方向。

If it's a collection of furniture, you stick to it.

对于MoMA来说，它是一个当代设计的收藏，因此涵盖其不同方面。

In the case of MoMA, it's a collection of contemporary design, therefore, its different aspects.

由于我们的标题中有‘现代’这一属性，我们可以比史密森尼学会更挑剔、更富有主见，后者收集的是文化和文化文物。

And because we have that attribute in the title Modern, we can get away with being more selective and opinionated than, say, the Smithsonian, which gathers and collects culture and cultural artifacts.

我甚至不是在谈库珀·休伊特，而是泛指史密森尼学会。

I'm not even talking about Cooper Hewitt, but the Smithsonian in general.

因此，理解收藏的个性和目标非常重要，策展人也必须清晰地阐明这些立场。

So it's very important to understand the personality and the goals of a collection, and it's important for the curators to state them clearly.

然后公众应该督促他们遵守这些原则。

And then the public should hold them to it.

你和MoMA的同事们是否明确阐述过关于如何呈现设计与建筑历史的特定价值观？

Are there particular values that you and colleagues at MoMA have articulated about how you want to present design and architectural history?

那么，是否存在一些限制？

And then are there constraints?

你知道，展示内容和展示方式上存在一些物理上的限制。

You know, there's some physical constraints to what can be presented and how things should be presented.

其中之一是智力上的主张。

One thing is the intellectual statements.

这样的主张已经太多了。

There's been so many.

你知道，MoMA成立于1929年，建筑和设计从一开始就是博物馆的一部分，因为整个博物馆的创立理念源自包豪斯，即各种创意学科融合在一起，共同构建更美好的社会。

You know, MoMA was founded in 1929, and architecture and design were part of the museum since the beginning because the whole museum was founded on the model of the Bauhaus, which was about all the different creative disciplines coming together to make a better society.

因此，它从建筑扩展到绘画与雕塑，再到设计、舞台设计、布景设计和服装设计。

So it went from architecture to painting and sculpture to design to stage design, set design and costume design.

所以从一开始就是如此。

So it was really part since the beginning.

从那时起，不同的策展人以不同的方式阐述了这一点。

And since then, different curators have articulated it in different ways.

我们在我们楼层的电梯旁有一张小图片，上面是埃利奥特·诺伊斯关于优秀设计的陈述。

We have a little picture by the elevator on our floor with the statement on what good design is by Eliot Noyes.

这很有趣，因为我不一定会说今天的陈述还是一样的。

And it's very funny because I wouldn't necessarily say that the statement is the same today.

今天，我们更注重背景了。

Today, we think of context much more.

那时候，关注的是物品本身。

At that time, it was about the object itself.

再往前，甚至更强调物品近乎雕塑般的特质。

Before then, it was even more about the object as almost sculptural.

‘现代’这个概念在几十年里也发生了变化。

And this idea of modern also changed in the decades.

换句话说，始终保持这种清晰的表述非常重要。

So in other words, it's always important to have this kind of clarity of statement.

现在，如果我要告诉你我们今天的立场，那就是设计应当产生影响，努力让世界变得更好，不仅为人类，也为其他物种以及整个系统。

Now, if I were to tell you what we stand for today, it's design that has an impact in trying to make the world a better place, not only for humans, but also for other species and as a system in general.

我知道这听起来很模糊，但不可能再更具体了，因为真正重要的不是物体的外观，尽管外观也很重要。

I know that it's vague, but it's impossible to be less vague Because, truly, it's not a matter of how an object looks, even though looks are important.

它仍然是一座艺术博物馆。

It's still an art museum.

而它不再关乎价格或珍贵程度。

And it's not a matter anymore of its price or preciousness.

就我个人而言，我更喜欢那些能触达更多人、易于获取且价格亲民的物品。

As far as I'm concerned, I prefer objects that go to as many people as possible so that they're accessible and affordable.

真正重要的是物体希望实现什么目标。

But rather, it's a matter really of what the object wants to achieve.

你们目前正在开展或最近完成的哪些项目，是MoMA举办过的一些展览的基础，并体现了这些理念？

What are some stories that you are either working on or have recently worked on that are the foundation of some shows that have happened at MoMA, that are exemplars of those philosophies?

有一场展览，不幸的是正处于最后一周，所以我正在和你交谈的同时向它告别。

Well, there is an exhibition that unfortunately is in its last week, so I'm saying goodbye to it as I speak with you.

这场展览名为《永不孤单》。

And it's called Never Alone.

它展示了现代艺术博物馆收藏的电子游戏，包括电子游戏和其他互动设计。

It shows the collection of video games at the Museum of Modern Art, video games and other interactive designs.

因此，它包含了我们收藏的35到36款电子游戏。

So it has our 35, 36 video games.

有些可以游玩，有些则不行。

Some are playable, some are not.

此外，你可能知道iWriter，这是一个几年前的开源项目，它让一位来自洛杉矶、患有卢·格里克病的涂鸦艺术家能够躺在床上，通过激光在建筑上涂鸦，这件作品也是展览的一部分。

And then it has also You probably know the iWriter, which is this open source project from a few years ago that enabled a graffiti writer from Los Angeles that had Lou Gehrig disease to kind of tag buildings using laser from his bed, so it's part of that.

还有约翰·米汉的首批互动书籍，它们实际上是90年代初的首批应用程序。

And there's the first Reactive books by John Meaghan that are basically the first apps from the early '90s.

但此外，还有一件标识牌，作为馆藏 acquisitions，我特别引以为豪。

But then there's also the sign that I'm really proud of as an acquisition.

这个故事对我来说永远不会过时，我始终为此感到自豪。

So that's a story that will never grow old for me and that I'm continuously proud of.

我都记不清是怎么想到的了，但我当时在思考@这个符号，以及它在我们当今生活中有多么重要和关键。

I don't even remember how it happened, but I was thinking of the at sign, and I was thinking of how important and crucial it is to our life these days.

我还想到它有多么美丽。

And I was thinking of how beautiful it is.

于是我开始深入研究，发现它最早出现在中世纪的手稿中——也许更早之前就被使用过，但首次被记录是在这些手稿里。

So I started digging, and I found out that it was first found maybe it was used even before, but it was first found in manuscripts from the Middle Ages.

那些抄写手稿的修士们会用这个符号将拉丁语介词ad中的字母A和D合并在一起，ad的意思是‘与……相关’或‘朝向’。

And the monks that were copying manuscripts would use that symbol to fuse the letters A and D from the Latin proposition ad, which means in relationship with or towards.

他们这样做只是为了节省精力，用一个旋涡状的笔画代替完整的字母组合。

So they were just like to save energy that would go with a swirl.

而这个小小的符号——说实话，我当时震惊了，心想：天哪。

And then that little symbol I mean, already, I was stunned because I said, oh my god.

它的含义竟然没有改变，已经跨越了这么多世纪。

It's the same meaning, and it's been so many centuries.

然后我发现，这个符号在几个世纪中一直保留了下来。

Then I found out that it had stayed during the centuries.

它曾被商人使用，在十九世纪，会计们用它来表示‘每’的费率。

It had been used by merchants and in the nineteenth century, by accountants to stay at the rate off.

所以，它也被用在打字机上。

So, it was also in the typewriters.

然后在1971年，当雷·汤姆林森在开发VPN内的电子邮件程序、并正在创建互联网时，他在电传打字机的键盘上看到了这个符号，他正想找一个符号来连接人的名字与计算机或房间中的位置，对吧？

And then, in 1971, when Ray Tomlinson was working on the email program within VPN and just creating the Internet, He saw it on the keyboard of the teletype, and he was looking for a way to fuse into a symbol the lines of code that would connect the name of the person to the location in the computer or in the room, right?

于是他看到了这个符号，并决定将其采纳为这种代码的融合形式。

So he saw this symbol, and he decided to adopt it as a fusion of that code.

因此，几个世纪后，尽管环境不同，但含义、用途和节省能量、时间和字母的方式都是一样的。

So centuries afterwards, different setting, same meaning, same use, same way to save energy and time and letters.

我只是感到无比震惊。

And I just was flabbergasted.

我说，这太棒了。

Said, this is wonderful.

然后我想，好吧，它属于公共领域。

And then I thought, okay, it's in the public domain.

那么，拥有它意味着什么？

What does it mean to acquire it?

这为整个事件增添了另一层美感，因为它属于每个人。

Which was another layer of beauty to the whole operation because it is everybody's.

它属于公共领域。

It's in the public domain.

所以这并不是一种占有。

So it's not an acquisition.

这是一种加冕。

It's an anointment.

但有人会说，把东西收集成收藏品，这又回到你关于收藏的问题，意味着拥有它们并把它们从世人的可用范围中移除。

But says who that acquiring things for a collection, and it goes back to your question about the collection, means possessing them and taking them out of availability for the rest of the world.

这并不必要。

That's not necessary.

我们的职责不是拥有、封闭并上锁保管，而是向观众展示设计的奇妙之处，或绘画与雕塑的奇妙之处，取决于我们有什么。

Our job is not to own and close and lock under lock and key, but rather it is to show the audience the marvels of design or the marvels of painting and sculpture, you know, depending on what we have.

因此，这个物品、收藏品、加冕品或馆藏_ENTRY让我感到非常自豪。

So that's an object or an acquisition or an anointment or an entry in the collection that makes me very proud.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

对于字体爱好者来说，这是一个连字。

And for type nerds, that's a ligature.

确实是一个连字。

It's a ligature indeed.

我的意思是，我不想深入专业术语，但毫无疑问，这是一个连字，而且在中世纪时也是如此。

I mean, I didn't wanna go into specific terms, but definitely, it's a ligature, and it was a ligature also in the Middle Ages.

这就是它的美妙之处。

That's the beauty.

我们将会邀请乔纳森·霍夫勒来做节目，我肯定也会和他聊聊这个。

We're gonna have Jonathan Hoefler on the show, so we'll talk to him a little bit about that too, I'm sure.

天哪。

Oh my god.

你知道，字体设计师都很疯狂，但乔纳森很棒。

You know, type designers are crazy, but Jonathan is wonderful.

宝拉，我很好奇，在数字时代，我们是否还有其他一些习以为常的物体或符号，其实它们有着我们可能不了解的历史？

Paola, I'm curious, are there any other stories along those lines of maybe objects or symbols that we sort of take for granted in the digital age, but that maybe have a history that we might not know about?

这才是最纯粹的。

That is the purest.

还有其他一些我们后来才采用的符号。

Then there are other symbols that we have acquired.

我们采用了知识共享的标志，这种情况下，意味着与知识共享组织达成了协议。

We have acquired the Creative Commons symbols, and in that case, it means having an agreement with Creative Commons.

对吧？

Right?

所以，将它纳入收藏意味着达成了协议。

So having it in the collection means having an agreement.

我们还在墙上做了 stencil，旁边还放了一段视频，展示当电路需要打开和关闭时，零和一如何组合成一个符号。

We have also stenciled on the wall, and then we have a video next to it that shows when the circuits needed to be opened and closed, the zero and the one coming together into the one symbol.

我们还有 'I love New York'。

We have I love New York.

所以在这种情况下，你知道，这非常有趣。

So in that case, you know, it's very fascinating.

当你涉及符号或数字对象时，所有权与许可权之间的区别，真的既迷人又复杂。

When you go into symbols or digital objects, ownership versus license, it's really fascinating and complex.

'I love New York' 这个符号属于纽约州。

The I love New York symbol belongs to the state of New York.

所以除非他们授权，否则你不能使用它。

So you cannot use it unless they give you permission.

你必须向他们支付费用等等。

You have to pay them something, etcetera.

但米尔顿·格拉瑟提供了原始草图。

But Milton Glaser gave us the original sketches.

所以米尔顿·格拉瑟是一位平面设计师。

So Milton Glaser is the graphic designer.

对于那些还没有了解米尔顿·格拉瑟巨大影响力的人，他在20世纪70年代曾在一张纸上——实际上是一张餐巾纸，那张著名的餐巾纸上——随手画下了‘我爱纽约’，目的是帮助纽约州，特别是由杰出女性玛丽·劳伦斯·韦尔斯经营的这家卓越广告公司，协助纽约州长重塑纽约的形象，因为当时纽约正处于极度困境之中，游客们因犯罪、脏乱和环卫工人大罢工等原因纷纷却步。

For those of you who have not yet encountered the magnitude of Milton Glaser in your life, he was the man that in the 1970s sketched the I Heart NY on a piece of paper, actually, a napkin, a napkin, the proverbial napkin, to help the state of New York, and in particular, this great advertising company run by a fabulous woman, Mary Lawrence Wells, to help them help the governor of New York kind of redesign the image of New York because New York was in really dire straits at that time, and tourists didn't wanna come anymore because of crime and dirt and sanitation department strikes, you name it.

所以‘我爱纽约’的原始手稿作为文物被收藏在馆内。

So I Heart New York is in the collection as the original artifact.

那张餐巾纸在MoMA的收藏中吗？

Is that napkin in the MoMA collection?

谁拥有那张餐巾纸？

Who has that napkin?

是的。

Yeah.

就是那张餐巾纸，还有一些他最初剪贴的草稿纸，你知道的，就是那些纸张。

It's the napkin and then some of his first cut and paste tables, you know, like papers.

所以收藏中保存的是‘我爱纽约’的设计过程。

So it's the process of the I Heart New York that is in the collection.

这个物品本身，有时我们会把它展示出来，比如2019年我们重新开放时，我认为它被挂在了扩建后的墙上。

The object itself, sometimes we put it, like when we reopened in 2019, I think it was on the wall after the expansion.

它被挂在墙上。

It was on the wall.

但每次我们需要向纽约州申请许可来使用这些草图时，我们其实不需要征得任何人的同意。

But every time we have to ask permission of the state of New York for the sketches, we don't have to ask anybody's permission.

我很好奇。

I'm curious.

你是对‘我爱纽约’最了解的人，这个问题问你再合适不过了。

Is the I love New York, you'd the perfect person to ask this question.

我相信还有其他类似的例子，比如象形文字拼贴，通过图像元素的组合来表达含义，就像保罗·兰德设计的IBM标志。

There's other examples I'm sure of, like, a rebus where where there's pictorial elements that are arranged in a way to make something like Paul Rand's IBM logo design.

‘我爱纽约’算是最早的表情符号吗？或者你认为它在表情符号历史中处于什么位置？

Is the I love New York sort of the first kind of emoji, or where would you place it in the history of that?

你知道吗，最早的emoji其实是古代历史中的象形文字。

You know, the first emojis are hieroglyphics in ancient history.

对吧？

Right?

所以某种程度上，不存在第一个表情符号，但它无疑是当代最持久、最经典的表情符号使用之一。

So in a way, there's no first emoji, but definitely it's one of the most contemporary and evergreen uses of emojis.

最早的表情符号是在20世纪90年代末设计的。

The first emojis were designed in the late '90s.

顺便说一下，我们馆藏中也有这些表情符号。

So, we also have those in the collection, by the way.

我们收藏了1999年NTT DoCoMo的原始表情符号。

We have the original DOCOMO emojis from 1999.

但当然，在那之前就已经存在各种符号了。

But, of course, symbols existed even before that.

所以，我们不能说‘我爱纽约’是第一个表情符号，但它无疑是其中最著名的之一。

So, no, we can't say that I heart New York is the first emojis, but definitely, it's one of the most famous.

我很高兴你让我们了解到MoMA的起源与包豪斯有关。

I love that you educated us that MoMA has its origins with the Bauhaus.

这真是我完全没想到的，我可是包豪斯及其对设计贡献的忠实粉丝。

That was something I I had no idea about, and I'm a big fan of the Bauhaus and all that it did for design.

我不知道你能不能给我们简单介绍一下二十世纪的设计，挑几个你认为关键的设计时刻，让每个听众——无论他们是学生还是某公司的设计副总裁——都能了解并意识到这些重要时刻？

I wonder if you could just give us a little tour of twentieth century design, if we could walk through a few moments that in your mind are, like, key moments in design that every listener, regardless of whether they're a student or a VP of design somewhere, that they should know about and be aware of this moment?

那么在二十世纪，我们就从那里开始吧。

So in twentieth century, we'll start maybe there.

这根本不是一件容易的事。

It's not an easy feat at all.

我知道你的墙上挂着吉他和其他音乐相关的物品。

You know, I see guitars and other music artifacts on your walls.

这就好像我在请你为我导览二十世纪的音乐史一样。

It's as if I were asking you to give me a tour of music in the twentieth century.

我所说的一切都远远不够。

So everything that I will say will not be enough.

而且，我所说的这一切也遗憾地带有强烈的欧洲中心主义色彩，且由白人男性主导，因为我的教育背景就是这样。

And also, everything that I will say is sadly very Eurocentric and very white male dominated because that's how I was educated.

像我这样的许多策展人目前正在努力平衡我们的教育和收藏。

And many curators like me are right now trying to rebalance our education and also our collections.

但包豪斯已经进入二十世纪了。

But the Bauhaus is already way into the twentieth century.

在那之前，我想回到19世纪60年代。

Before that, I would like to go probably in the 1860s.

你知道，那是一个非常重要的十年。

You know, that was a very important decade.

那不仅是伦敦世博会和水晶宫的年代，也是工业设计正式确立的年代。

Not only was it the decade of the Expo in London, the Crystal Palace, it was also the anointment of industrial design.

在此之前，英国工艺美术运动的倡导者们就已经开始强烈反对工业化生产，并试图拯救手工艺。

Before that, the champions of the arts and crafts movement in The UK had already started thundering against industrial production and trying to also save the crafts.

但我只会给你要点，否则我们没完没了。

But I'm gonna just give you points because otherwise we go on forever.

但在十八世纪，工业革命、伦敦世博会和水晶宫，同时期还有美国的震教徒和工艺美术运动。

But in the eighteenth century, the industrial revolution, the Crystal Palace and the expo in London, at the same time, arts and crafts and the shakers in The United States.

我认为沙克派非常重要。

I think the shakers are very, very important.

然后你进入二十世纪初。

Then you move to the twentieth century, the beginning.

当时有很多有机设计。

There's a lot of organic design.

有奥地利分离派、法国的类似运动、英国的自由风格，以及美国的相应风格。

There's the episodes of the secession in Austria, of the in France, and liberty style in The UK and also over in The United States.

这种有机美学。

So this kind of organic aesthetics.

对我来说，包豪斯无疑是很重要的。

The ones that are important to me, the Bauhaus certainly was.

二战后发生了许多变化。

Then a lot happened after World War II.

许多为战争而发展的技术成果逐渐普及到大众生活中，这就是所谓的美国中期现代主义，比如洛杉矶的案例研究住宅，以及查尔斯和雷·伊姆斯的家具。

The percolating of so many of the advancements that were made for the war that came to fruition of people in general, and that's what is called the mid century modern United States, the case study houses in Los Angeles, the furniture of Charles and Ray Eames.

这些都源于战争努力带来的推动，进而催生了20世纪60年代和70年代初激进的建筑与设计浪潮。

Those were all, like, boosts that came from the war effort and so on and so forth, the moment of radical architecture and design in the 1960s and the early 1970s.

但这整个领域是一个庞大的宇宙，不可能在短短几分钟内概括清楚。

But it's a whole universe, and it's impossible to sum it up in just a few minutes.

我只是想向你们的观众传达这个信息。

I just wanna send this message to your audience.

设计是人类最伟大的创造性活动之一，甚至可以说是最重要的一项。

Design is one of the, if not the most important creative endeavor that humans have.

艺术当然非常重要，但设计塑造了我们的世界。

You know, art is very important, but design shapes our world.

因此，人们有必要了解它。

So it's necessary for people to have knowledge of it.

所以我真心希望你们能更加好奇，并找到足够的资料来满足你们对它的渴望。

So I really do hope that you will be more curious and that you will find enough materials to soothe your thirst for it.

在设计史中，一个反复出现、始终让我着迷的主题是人与机器之间的张力——即人性化的工作方式与机械化控制之间的冲突，而如今随着人工智能的发展，这种矛盾似乎再次浮现，人类手工艺与技术控制再度形成对立。

One theme that seems to be recurring that I'm always fascinated about in design history is this tension between man and the machine, the humanistic approach to work, and mechanistic control of things that seems to be reigniting and playing out right now as artificial intelligence and, you know, sort of human craft are at tensions again.

但你提到过19世纪60年代和工业化，当时出现了工艺美术运动的反弹，人们希望回归手工制作的东西，回归那些独特、富有灵性的事物——我们人类能感知到，在亲手设计和制作物品时，我们与之建立了一种联系，不仅与物品本身，也与彼此之间。

But you talked a bit about the eighteen sixties and industrialization, and there was a pushback with the arts and crafts movement where, you know, like, let's return to something that's handmade, something that is special and has a spirit to it, that there is something special that we perceive as humans that in designing and crafting things by hand, we feel a connection to it, to that object, but also to one another.

你觉得当今正在发生的事情，技术与现代设计中人与机器之间的这种平衡，该如何看待？

How do you think about what's happening, what's playing out today, this person versus the machine balance with technology and modern day design?

人工智能正在发生的事情非常引人入胜，这正是这种张力的集中爆发。

What's happening in AI is really fascinating, and it's it is a coming to head of this tension.

但有趣的是，这种现象在实体设计领域并没有真正发生，恰恰相反。

But the funny thing is, it's not really happening in the world of physical design, quite the opposite.

我1994年来到MoMA。

When I came to MoMA, was '94.

1995年，我策划了一个名为《当代设计中的变异材料》的展览，主题全是那些新材料，比如碳纤维。

And in '95, I did an exhibition that was called Mutant Materials in Contemporary Design, which was all about these materials, new materials like carbon fibers.

我的意思是，当时这些材料还很新颖。

I mean, at that time was new.

还有气凝胶，所有这些不同的新型实验性材料。

Or aerogels, all of these different new experimental materials.

有趣的是，我当时发现材料越先进，就越需要手工技艺，因为还没有能够加工这些材料的机器。

The funny thing is I discovered at that time that the more advanced the materials, the more you need crafts, the more you need handicrafts, because the machines to work them do not exist yet.

因此，即使在使用先进技术和材料时，手工技艺也是实验所必需的。

So craftsmanship is necessary to experimentation even with advanced technologies and materials.

今天的情况也是如此。

And the same is true today.

人们现在对工艺有着真正的高度关注，因为它为我们提供了如何处理材料和技术的灵感。

You know, there's a real deep attention to crafts because it gives us ideas of how to work materials and technologies.

就在几天前，我看到了一个3D打印的精彩案例。

And just a few days ago, I saw this beautiful example of three d printing.

你知道，现在有很多关于3D打印建筑的例子。

You know, there is a lot of three d printing of buildings.

有一个喷嘴，可以将水泥浆或其他材料精准地塑造成所需形状。

There's a nozzle that lets the slurry of cement or whatever other materials be positioned in the right shape.

我看到中国一个乡村社区中，有人将旧房屋进行巧妙的再利用，通过整合3D打印的部件来修复它们。

And I saw this beautiful adaptive reuse of old homes in a rural community in China that were recuperated by integrating them with parts that were instead three d printed.

所以，这真是一个美妙的方式，展现了两者是如何融合在一起的。

So it was just such a beautiful way to show how the two came together.

或者看看耶比·范吉贝的作品，这位年轻的荷兰设计师将出现在我正在筹备的下一个以材料为主题的展览中。

Or the work of Yibbe Van Gybe, who is this young designer in The Netherlands that we're gonna have in the next exhibition that I am preparing that is going to be about materials.

他找到了一种方法，改造了3D打印机，使其能够编织出类似牙膏状的陶瓷或其他材料。

He found a way to adapt a three d printer so that it can knit a toothpaste of ceramics or toothpaste of different kinds.

最终，你得到的是这种编织式的3D打印作品，其足够的不完美之处反而重新带回了人文质感，尽管它是由3D打印机制作的。

So, at the end, you have this knitted three d printing with enough imperfection as to bring back a humanistic quality, even though it's a three d printing machine.

因此，那些真正制作实物的设计师们，对不完美与人类手工痕迹的结合非常着迷，正是这种不完美让物件显得真正属于你。

So, designers that actually make objects are very fascinated by the coming together of imperfection, the imperfection that comes from the human hand that makes it so that you can feel that an object really belongs to you.

而另一方面，3D打印所代表的经济性与精确性。

And instead, the economy and the exactitude, in some ways, of three d printing.

但你知道，人工智能正在发生的事情非常严重，这确实是一个必须深入讨论的话题。

But you know, what's happening in AI is very, very serious, and definitely that's a discussion that needs to be had.

在三维设计领域，我认为和谐性要多得多。

In the world of three-dimensional design, there's much more harmony, I would say.

我们将在短暂的广告后继续这场对话。

We'll return to the conversation after this quick break.

《设计得更好》由我们的伙伴Wix Studio赞助。

Design Better is brought to you by our pals at Wix Studio.

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If you want to grow your agency or your independent work that you're doing for clients, you need more than just a website builder, you need Wix Studio.

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It's the all in one platform that's built to help you scale.

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You can design smarter and a hyper flexible, responsive editor, cherry picking whatever your clients need from pre built UI elements and templates.

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不要再为每个项目重复造轮子了。

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Wix Studio's AI powered CMS lets you turn a single layout into hundreds of dynamic pages.

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It's true.

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It's an incredible platform.

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现在，回到节目。

And now, back to the show.

帕奥拉，你认为现代设计中的创意过程是如何演变的？

Paola, how do you think that the creative process has evolved over the course of modern design?

我的意思是，你刚刚提到了这个观点，尽管材料和工程方面有了进步，但依然保留着很强的手工艺成分，一种亲手制作的质感，或者物品中带有的那种略带不完美的人工气息。

Mean, you just touched on this idea that despite these advances maybe in materials and engineering, there's still very much a craftsman aspect to this, a hands on aspect, a sense that objects are made by humans or maybe a wobby, sobby quality to them.

但你认为，伴随着这些变化，创意过程是否也发生了演变，尤其是在数字产品方面？

But do you think along with that, the creative process has evolved, especially maybe as it relates to digital products?

这完全取决于你如何定义这个过程，你知道的，创意过程本身。

It all depends on how you think of the process, you know, the creative process itself.

因为我接受的教育方式非常抽象和哲学化，所以在我看来，它始终如一。

Because of how abstract and philosophical the way I was taught was, to me, it's always the same.

就是目标和手段。

It's goals and means.

你明确自己的目标。

You declare your goals.

然后看看你手头有哪些手段，用这些手段能实现什么，离目标有多近，而实现过程中的优雅程度，就能体现你是否是个优秀的设计师。

You see what means you have at your disposal and what you achieve with those means, how close you are to the goal, with elegance that shows if you're a good designer or not.

对吧？

Right?

所以从这个角度来看，时间、材料或环境都没有区别。

So from that viewpoint, there's no difference in time or in material or in setting.

但事实上，这只不过是美好的幻想。

But the truth is that it's wishful thinking.

实际上，很多方面都发生了变化，比如设计教育。

There's a lot of differences that happen, for instance, in design education.

设计教育在很大程度上定义了创意过程的样子。

And design education does a lot to define then what the creative process will be.

我关注设计教育，是因为我觉得如今设计学校的学费高得离谱。

And I go to design education because I feel that it's a real big problem today how much design schools cost.

因为当你进入设计学校时，你应该能够自由实验。

Because when you go to design school, you should be able to experiment.

你应该能够拓展对‘设计师’这一身份可能性的理解。

You should be able to expand the possibilities of what being a designer is.

你得做出一些垃圾，你知道的，一些完全没用的垃圾。

You should make some crap, you know, and some completely useless crap.

问题是，学生背负了太多债务，一旦毕业，他们唯一的目标就是进入规模尽可能大的设计工作室或公司，以便获得保险并偿还债务。

The problem is students accrue so much debt that all they want once they get out of school is to be hired by a studio, a design office as big as possible that can pay insurance and help them pay the debt off.

这是个大问题。

That's a big problem.

我见过一些学校，有开明的教授试图开展更具实验性的项目和课程，但学生们却反抗，因为他们担心自己无法掌握偿还债务所需的技能。

I've seen schools in which enlightened professors were trying to start these projects, these courses that were more experimental, and the students rebelled because they wouldn't have the skills that they needed to pay down the debt.

所以，这对我来说是最大的问题。

So that's, to me, the big problem.

我认为，当一个学科具有创造性时，应该稍微保护它，免于立即找工作的绝望，而应致力于建立事业。

I think that when a discipline is creative, it should be protected a little bit from the despair of finding immediately a job instead of trying to build a career.

所以，我认为这是最大的区别。

So that's the biggest difference, I think.

谈到代码时，因为代码更具可移植性，我有时会误以为从事代码工作的人更容易一些，但事实上并非如此。

When it comes to code, because it's more portable, sometimes I have the illusion that it's easier for people that work with code, but truly, it is not.

情况完全一样。

It's exactly the same thing.

因为这种投入最终必须得到回报。

Because the investment needs to be then repaid.

我很高兴你提到代码，因为这是创意过程的一部分。

I love that you just brought up code because this is part of the creative process.

现代设计的许多材料就是代码。

Are the modern day materials for a lot of design.

事实上，我们最近邀请了WordPress的创始人马特·穆伦维格做客，WordPress网站底部一直有一句标语：代码即诗歌，他看待代码的方式就像艺术家看待艺术一样。

In fact, we had Matt Mullenweg, founder of WordPress, on recently, and one of their taglines that's been at the bottom of all WordPress sites is code is poetry, and he thinks about code in a very kind of like the way that an artist thinks.

他上高中时学习爵士乐，因此他的思维方式就像艺术家。

He studied jazz as a high schooler, so he thinks like an artist.

但也有一些人，比如凯西·里斯等人，率先模糊了艺术与工程之间的界限。

But there are folks like Casey Reese and others who have kind of pioneered this blurring of lines of art and engineering.

你如何看待那些编写代码、设计产品并影响我们生活的技术人员？

How do you think about the technical side of people who are writing code and designing things that are influencing our lives?

从哲学角度来说，他们符合这样的标准：好的设计如何塑造我们的生活，或者代码如何在日常中塑造我们的生活。

Like, philosophically, they match those criteria of, you know, how does good design shape our lives or code shapes our lives on a regular basis.

有趣的是，你提到了凯西，因为我们已经做了三十多年的朋友，我非常尊重他。

Well, it's funny you should bring up Casey because we've been friends for more than thirty years, and I respect him tremendously.

是的。

Yeah.

他也是我们在MoMA的合作伙伴，我们首次推出的NFT项目就是与Feral File合作，而那是他的公司。

He's also our partner here at MoMA when the first ever NFTs that we did was with Feral File, with his company.

所以，你确实提到对了这个人。

So, definitely, you touched on the right person.

我只是觉得，就像设计一样，代码也有好坏之分。

Well, I just think, like design, code can be good or bad.

对吧？

Right?

同意。

So, agree.

它可以是诗，也可以是优美的诗，或者糟糕透顶的诗。

It can be poetry, or it can be good poetry or really bad poetry.

对吧？

Right?

所以，重要的是要记住，不是所有东西都是完美的，你需要不断学习。

So, it's always important to remember that not everything is perfect, you know, that you need to learn.

同时，作为一个人、一名公民，你也需要有能力提出异议，当某些东西不够好时，要敢于说出来。

And also, as a person, as a citizen, you need to be able to push back and to say when something is not good enough.

所以，凯西是这些运用代码、思考交互性以及表达方式的艺术家和设计师中的巅峰人物。

So Casey is at the pinnacle of these artists and designers that use code, that think of interactivity, that think of how it expresses.

对于可能不了解的人，凯西也是Processing的联合创始人之一，这个项目旨在将代码普及给尽可能广泛的受众，让每个人都能至少点燃一个数字项目的火花。

For those of you who might not know, Casey was also one of the cofounders of Processing, which was this attempt to disseminate code to as wide an audience as possible so that everybody could actually have at least a spark to begin a digital project.

所以，这也是一种慷慨。

So it was also generosity.

这不仅是他的才华和创造力，更是他自身的慷慨。

It was not only talent and creativity, but also generosity on his side.

因此，凯西是一个理想主义者，一位伟大的艺术家，也是我们推动这个领域前进所需要的人。

So, Kacine is an idealist and a great artist and the kind of person that we need to push the field forward.

然后，还有没那么高的巅峰，也有低谷。

Then there's not so high pinnacles, and then there's valleys.

对吧？

Right?

我认为提醒这一点非常重要，因为就像椅子或茶壶一样，代码是为我们服务的。

And I think it's very important to be reminded of that because just like chairs or teapots, code is for us.

我从不使用'消费者'这个词，因为我非常反感它，我认为词语决定了你是谁。

I don't ever use the word consumer because I really detest it, and I think that words determine who you are.

所以我们是公民。

So we're citizens.

代码是为我们而存在的，就像椅子是为我们而存在的。

But code is for us, just like chairs are for us.

我希望我们都能更好地理解，并在代码被良好运用、合理部署、优雅且富有慷慨精神时，有更真切的感受。

And I wish we all could understand better and feel better when code is well used and well deployed and elegant and generous and whatnot.

帕奥拉，我想了解一下艺术与设计之间的关系。

Paola, I'm curious about the relationship between art and design.

为了给我的教学项目提供一些背景，当我90年代在斯坦福学习时，艺术项目和设计项目之间有着非常紧密的联系，尤其是通过我的教授马特·卡恩，他深受克兰布鲁克和包豪斯理念的影响。

And to give some context to the program where I teach, we used to have a very strong connection to the art program and the design program at Stanford when I was going through it in the 90s, especially through my professor Matt Kahn, who kind of came out of Cranbrook and the Bauhaus sort of philosophy.

但多年来，这种关系逐渐弱化了，我确实注意到我们的学生作品中，有时他们会自己去探索这些方面，但有时对特定类型设计的美学缺乏认知。

But over the years that relationship kind of weekend and I definitely see in our students work, occasionally they'll go out and get these things themselves, but sometimes there's sort of a lack of knowledge around the aesthetics of particular types of design.

如果你缺乏艺术与设计之间的联系，还缺失了什么？

But what else is missing if you don't have a relationship between art and design?