326: From creators to conductors in the age of AI

我就是这样慢慢演变的。

That's how I've sort of evolved.

我看到AI的影响是，以前我们设计师负责产出。

How I'm seeing AI impact is that previously, as designers, we were responsible for the output.

比如接到一个简报，我们施展魔法，然后把成果交给合作团队。

Like a brief comes in, we do our magic and we hand over the output to our partner team.

现在，我觉得我们正在走向的方向是，品牌设计师负责创建正确的输入，这样营销团队就能得到他们需要的输出。

Now, where I think where we're going is that brand designers are responsible for creating the right inputs so that the marketing team can get the outputs they need.

我们负责设定正确的边界，训练AI，给它模板来工作，这样营销团队就能用它来制作社交媒体图形。

We are responsible for setting the right guardrails and like training the AI, giving it the templates to work from so that the marketing team can come in and like make their social media graphics using it.

是的，这确实取代了我们之前的一些工作。

Yeah, that replaces some of the work we were doing.

但你猜怎么着？

But guess what?

然后我们就能专注于那些更有趣的事情，毕竟一天下来。

Then we get to focus on the like more interesting stuff at the end of the day.

所以，是的，我现在就是这么想的。

And so that's yeah, how I'm thinking about it now.

专注于输入，而不仅仅是输出。

Focus on the inputs rather than just the outputs.

我们现在有点像守护者，或者我喜欢用指挥家这个比喻。

We are now kind of like the guardians, or I like to use the analogy of being the conductor.

我们在指挥或编排框架和流程。

We're conducting or orchestrating the frameworks, the processes.

欢迎收听 Design Life。

Welcome to Design Life.

这是一档关于设计和副业的播客，面向有动力的创作者。

A podcast about design and side projects for motivated creators.

我是 Femke。

I'm femke.

我是 Charli。

And I'm Charli.

我们好久没在你们的播客里出现了，但今天很高兴能和你们聊聊一个现在设计行业里完全绕不开的话题。

And it's been a while since we've showed up in your ears in your podcast feed, but we're excited to connect with you today and talk about a topic that is like literally unavoidable in the design industry right now.

我们要聊AI，朋友们，这个话题必须得聊。

We're gonna talk about AI y'all, it has to be done.

距离我们上次聊这个话题，差不多已经过去一年了。

It's been a year almost since we last put out an episode on this.

在AI的世界里，一年可是很长的时间。

In AI years, a year is so long.

简直像十年一样。

It's like a decade.

对，变化太大了。

Yeah, so much has changed.

我不知道你们怎么想，但我理解那些已经听腻了AI话题的人，但这也是我们现在作为设计师最需要讨论的最重要的事情。在这个新时代，期望在变，工具在变，对我们的行业影响太大了。

And I don't know about you, but like, I do understand for the folks who are getting sick of hearing AI conversations, but it's also the like biggest, most important thing for us to be discussing as designers right now in this new era, as expectations are changing, tools are changing, it is just having such a big impact on our industry.

这就是为什么这么多人都在聊它。

That is why so many people are talking about it.

这就是我们今天要聊它的原因。

That is why we're gonna talk about it today.

我不知道你怎么想，Fem，但过去一年，我觉得一方面我跟AI更亲近了，用得更多了，另一方面，也许正因为如此，我现在对AI的看法更犀利了。

I don't know about you fem, but over the last year, I feel like one, I've gotten closer to AI, like I've used it more, but two, and perhaps as a result of that, I have hotter takes on AI now.

我知道你对它的感受，但这就是我的出发点，所以今天我很想深入聊聊这个。

I know how you're feeling about it, but yeah, that's where I'm coming from and so I'm keen to dig into that today.

我们要不要先简单聊聊近况？

Do we wanna start with a brief check-in?

因为确实很久没人听到我们的消息了。

Because like it has been a long time since anyone heard from us.

生活怎么样？

How's life?

你还好吗？

How you doing?

确实好久没见了。

It's been a minute, totally.

我觉得我们上次录制是在二月或者一月，所以确实有一阵子了。

I think we last recorded in February or January so it's been a minute.

感谢大家的耐心等待，我们这次意外地休整了挺长时间。

Thanks all for the patience as we took a little bit of an unexpectedly long hiatus.

我二月份生了宝宝，所以播客停更一段时间，多少有点我的责任。

I had a baby in February so somewhat my fault for the podcast going dark for a little bit.

我儿子出生了，所以这大概六个月我基本都在休产假，围着宝宝转。

So my son was born so I've kind of just been in maternity leave baby land for a good six months or so.

但同时，我也在大力推进我业务中的一些部分，这些让我特别兴奋。

But at the same time been really ramping up some parts of my business that I'm really excited about.

所以在这次通话之前，我正好跟Charli说，我上周开始了我的小组辅导项目。

So I was just telling Charli before this call that I started my group coaching program last week.

这个项目在我脑子里酝酿了至少一年半了。

Which has been in my mind at least in the making for about a year and a half.

我记得在2025年初的时候就开始想这件事了。

Like I remember thinking about it early twenty twenty five.

所以我很高兴终于能把它启动起来。

So I'm really glad to finally be kicking that off.

我现在有15个成员，目前是作为试运行项目在运营。

I've got 15 members and I'm kind of running it right now as a beta program.

目标是收集反馈、学习、迭代，为将来加入的人改进这个项目。

With the goal to get feedback, learn, iterate, improve the program for future folks to join.

所以，是的，我现在日常的主要精力就是带孩子和运营这个辅导项目。

So yeah, my main sort of day to day focus right now is my kids running this coaching program.

Level Up Club 将在十月份开放报名，是的，我正在适应作为两个孩子的妈妈的新节奏。

Level Up Club is opening for registration in October and yeah, kind of just getting into this new rhythm as a mom of two.

另外，这也和今天的话题有点相关，现在我在电脑前的时间更少了，我比以往任何时候都更多地使用AI，真的。

And then also somewhat related to today's topic, now that I have less time to be in front of my computer, I am using AI more than ever, I tell you.

作为两个孩子的妈妈，很少有时间坐下来做深度工作和专注，AI就像是我的救星。

As a mom of two that rarely gets time to sit down at my desk and do deep work and focus time, AI is like my golden savior.

它来得正是时候。

It couldn't come at a better time.

是的，我很期待在接下来的节目里多分享一些这方面的内容，以及我是怎么用它的。

Yeah, I'm excited to share more about that as we go throughout the episode and how I'm using it.

不过跟我们说说你最近怎么样吧，Charli，今年你都在忙些什么？

But tell us how you're going Charli, what's been up with you this year?

所以，关于我们停更的另一面，我并没有去生宝宝或者扩大家庭，但我一直在崩溃边缘，我跟你说。

So the other side behind our hiatus, I have not been off having a baby and growing my family, but I have been spiraling, let me tell you that.

我不知道，今年对我来说是挺难的一年，倦怠感又回来了。

I don't know, it's been a tough year for me in terms of burnout, I had a resurgence.

我想很多听众可能之前听我提过这个。

I think that a lot of our listeners would have heard me talk about before.

是的，我一直在努力应对这种高级领导角色带来的压力，再加上AI带来的那些期望，真的挺多的。

And yeah, I've just been struggling with managing that in such a senior leadership role and also with the like AI of it all and the expectations that that brings, it's been a lot.

所以我想说，停更的前两个月可能是因为你在休产假，femme，但剩下的时间完全是我的原因。

And so I would say that maybe for the first two months of a hiatus, it was due to you being on maternity leave femme, but then the rest of it has been a 100% on me.

所以，是的，我不会对以后节目的更新频率做任何承诺，但现在我感觉有精力去做内容了。

And so yes, I'm not gonna make any promises about how regular episodes will be from now on, but right now I'm feeling like the energy for content.

所以我们就趁这股劲儿还在，赶紧冲一波吧。

And so let's like ride that wave while it exists.

冲吧，对。

Let's ride it, yeah.

我们从哪儿开始聊呢？

Where should we start?

这个话题真的太大了。

This is such a big topic.

是啊，确实是个大话题。

Yes, it is such a big topic.

我觉得我想先聊聊那个大家都不太敢提的事儿，就是——说实话，可能很多人一听到你说AI是你的救星，就已经不想听了。

I feel like I wanna start with somewhat of the elephant in the room, which is that, well, honestly, a lot of people might have already switched off now from you saying that AI is your golden savior.

大家对AI有很多看法，我理解。

People have a lot of feelings on AI and I get it.

我记不清是什么时候了，可能是Youfm，也可能是另一个做内容的朋友，他们发了篇关于AI的东西，评论区全是负面评论，他们私信我，说‘嘿，你也看到这些了吗？’

I can't remember when it was, if it was Youfm or if was another content creator friend of mine, but they had published something about AI and the comments were just like so negative that they messaged me like, hey, are you seeing this too?

你是怎么回应的？

How are you responding to this?

因为过去几个月我又开始做内容了。

Since I've now gotten back into making content again over the past couple months.

自然就会聊到AI，因为我聊我的工作，而AI是我现在工作中最需要搞清楚的事情。

And naturally I'm talking about AI because I talk about my work and AI is the biggest thing that I'm like trying to figure out right now in my work.

不过确实，我看到了很多负面的回应，大家都在谴责使用AI。

But yeah, I've seen a lot of like negative responses about people, you know, decrying the use of AI.

我完全理解他们的想法。

And I totally understand where they're coming from.

我们看到太多公司在大规模裁员。

We've seen so many companies doing mass layoffs.

即使他们没有明说是AI的原因，我们都知道AI在其中起了很大作用，对吧？

And even if they haven't said it's because of AI, we all know that AI played a large role in it, right?

所以这确实很糟糕。

And so that sucks.

我觉得那些公司做出这样的决定，真的是非常糟糕的选择。

And that is, I think a very terrible decision on those companies to have taken that route.

但现实是，残酷的现实是，如果你想在科技行业工作，想继续拿科技行业的薪水，想成为科技行业的设计师，你就得用AI。

But the reality is, the like harsh reality, is that if you wanna work in tech, if you wanna continue earning a tech salary and you wanna be like a designer in tech, you gotta use AI.

你必须跟上这趟车。

You gotta get on board that train.

否则，不幸的是，我觉得你真的得下车了。

Or unfortunately, I believe you do have to hop off.

我知道这个观点在有些人看来非常不受欢迎。

And I think that's very unpopular as an opinion to have amongst some folks.

但我也觉得，在某种程度上，我们都明白，这就是我们继续在科技行业工作所接受的现实，对吧？

But I also think that on some level, we all understand that that's the reality that we are signing up to by continuing to work in tech, right?

而且这确实是一个挺难的道德困境，因为我能看到也理解。

And it's been a tough, like, I guess, moral conundrum to be in a bit because I do see and understand.

是的，它是在艺术家被偷的作品上训练的。

Yeah, it was trained on stolen art by artists.

这对环境很不好。

It's terrible for the environment.

我也觉得世界上有很多其他事情对环境不好，我们却一直在做，比如坐飞机、吃肉之类的。

I also think there's a lot of other things in the world that are terrible for the environment that we do all the time, like air travel and eating meat and stuff like this.

大家大概就是选择自己愿意坚持的那一点吧。

And you all sort of like pick your hill to die on, I guess.

这就是我的态度。

And that's where I'm at with it.

所以我想先说明一下，如果有听众因为我们谈论AI、谈论它怎么帮到你而感到生气，请理解我们也是从理解它的难处出发的，但这也是我们现在工作所必需的。

And so I just wanted to start with that of saying that if anyone listening to this is pissed off by the fact that we're talking about AI and that we're like talking about the ways it can benefit you, please know that it's also coming from a place of understanding the difficulties of it, but it's like also a necessity for the work we do these days.

你觉得呢，fem？

What do you think, fem?

我觉得过去一年最大的变化就是，一年前大家还觉得，哦，我可以试试用这个东西。

I think that that's been like the main change over the last year is like a year ago, it was like, oh yeah, I could try using this thing.

那时候是可选的，对。

It was optional, yeah.

以前是可选的。

It was optional.

可以选择不用，也没关系。

Could opt out of it and be okay.

现在，就像你说的，如果你想不用，那我觉得你基本上就是完全下车了。

Now, to your point, if you wanna opt out of it, then I think you're hopping off the train completely.

因为我看到越来越多的公司在设定关于使用AI的期望，或者制定相关的实践和规范。

Because I am seeing more and more companies building in expectations around usage of AI or creating practices or disciplines.

我们就有。

We have it.

对。

Yep.

它就在我们的职业发展矩阵里。

It's in our matrix like our career matrix.

我不意外。

I'm not surprised.

这正在成为一种基本要求。

It's becoming a baseline expectation.

而且我还听到很多设计师在面试时也这么说。

And I'm even, I hear a lot from designers interviewing too.

所以我听到很多，即使在面试中，部分面试问题也是关于你如何使用AI或者你的AI工作流程是什么。

So I'm hearing a lot that even in interview context like part of the interview questions are how are you using AI or what's your AI workflow.

所以现在已经到了这个地步，如果你的工作中没有任何AI的痕迹，如果你不谈论它，如果它不在你的流程中，你就会被落下。

So it's gotten to the point now where if there's no sprinkle of AI in any of your work, if you don't talk about it, if it's not in your process, you're gonna get left behind.

我不知道，也许我们可以就此达成一致，这样你知道，以后这就是现实。

I don't know, maybe we can just agree on that so that you know, going forward that's the reality.

接下来呢？

What next?

我们如何与AI合作？

How do we work with AI?

比如，我们要做些什么来改变我们的工作流程，保持相关性，并在职业生涯中继续前进？

Like what are we gonna do to change up our workflow and stay relevant and keep moving forward in our careers?

因为我觉得到了这个阶段，如果你不跟上，就会被淘汰。

Because I do think that at this point, if you're not on board, you're gonna get kicked off.

对，因为确实得接受它才能保持竞争力。

Yeah, because you do kind of have to embrace it to stay relevant with it as well.

不知道你怎么样，但我没办法在工作时间内完成所有关于AI的学习。

I don't know about you, but I can't do all the learning that I need to about AI during my work hours.

我不得不花额外的时间去搞明白，然后测试一些东西，再带到工作中来。这也许不公平，但这就是我们行业和科技发展周期的现实。

Like I'm having to put in extra time to figure it out and be testing things that I can then bring into my work, which is unfair perhaps, but it's also the reality of where we're at in the industry and in like the tech life cycle.

但确实，我觉得这是你必须接受的事情之一。

But yeah, it is kind of one of those things that I think that you have to embrace.

我想鼓励我们的听众去接受，意思是你在工作中有效地使用它。

And I wanna encourage our listeners to embrace in the sense that like you are using it effectively in your work.

你不必非得喜欢它。

You don't gotta love it.

资本主义有很多地方我也不喜欢。

There's a lot of things about capitalism I don't love.

而且我每天都在这个体系里工作。

And I still work within that system every day.

完全同意。

Totally.

对我来说也一样，我之前根本不知道我不知道什么，对吧？

I feel for me too, I didn't know what I didn't know, right?

所以一开始接触AI的时候，网上看到的那些消息就像是在说，它能完全设计应用、产品，设计师都要失业了，它什么都能干。

So initially with AI, like the messages I was seeing online was like, it's gonna like completely design apps, products, like designers are gonna be put out of a job, it can like do everything.

然后我就想，哇，好吧，那我的角色是什么？

And so I was like woah, okay, so what's my role?

挺吓人的。

Scary.

对，确实吓人。

Yeah, scary.

有很多恐惧、不确定，还有很多疑虑。

There's a lot of fear, uncertainty, there's a lot of doubt.

直到我允许自己去尝试玩这些工具，我才有了那种顿悟的时刻，意识到，哦，这就是它的能力所在。

And it wasn't until I just like gave myself the permission to like try playing around with the tools that I had this like unlock moment where I realised, Oh, this is what it's capable of.

或者，哦，这就是我可以用它的方式。

Or Oh this is how I could use it.

所以，在尝试了各种工具，玩了一圈之后，虽然没试过几百种，但感觉像是试了几百种不同的工具，工具太多了，市场已经饱和了。

So like after experimenting with it, playing around with it, trying not hundreds but it feels like hundreds of different tools, There's so many tools, it's very saturated.

在尝试了所有这些工具和不同的工作方式之后，我觉得一年下来，我现在开始感到更舒服一点，更把它看作是我工作流程中的补充，而不是替代品。

After trying all of these tools and different ways of working with it, I feel like I'm starting to now get to a point a year on where I'm feeling a little bit more comfortable, a little bit more seen it as like a complementary ad to my workflow rather than a replacement.

所以我不会用AI来给我构建整个产品，然后说声谢谢就完事了。

And so I don't see or use AI to like build me an entire product, thanks k bye.

我更多把它看作是一个思考伙伴，一个和我一起的战略思考者，我可以把任务委派给它，帮我探索、更快地设计、更快地迭代、整理我的思路。

Like I see it as more of a thought partner, as a strategic thinker with me, I see it as something I can delegate tasks to, help me explore, design faster, do quicker iterations, organize my thoughts.

使用AI的方式以及它如何补充你的工作流程的可能性是无穷无尽的。

The possibilities of how you can use AI and the ways it can complement your workflow are endless.

所以我觉得这取决于我们自己去尝试一下，看看在我们的工作流程中哪里适合使用它。

And so I think it's kind of up to us to experiment with it a little bit and kind of see where it makes sense for us in our workflows.

我完全同意。

I 100% agree.

而且我觉得我们也要意识到，AI的变化和改进速度，说实话，快得吓人。

And I also think that we need to be aware of the fact that AI is changing and improving at a quite honestly, scarily rapid pace.

所以我们得小心，不要试了一次就下结论说，哦，AI做不了这个。

And so we have to be careful to not try something and then think, oh, AI can't do that.

更准确地说，可能是你用AI没做出来，或者AI暂时还做不到，但也许明天就能了，又或者只是你没找到正确的提示方式，或者没走对流程。

It's more like you couldn't do it with AI or AI can't do that yet, but maybe tomorrow it or maybe you just didn't like understand the right way to prompt it or like the process to go through to get it to work.

它能做的事情很多。

It's capable of a lot of things.

我觉得这也是我们需要参与进来的另一个地方，就是由我们来定义AI在设计工作中的应用方式。

And I think that that's another place where we kind of have to get on board is to be the ones defining how AI gets used in design roles.

不要只是袖手旁观，让那边的人开始自己设计产品，觉得不再需要我们了。

And don't just sit back and let someone over here like start designing their own product and thinking that they don't need us anymore.

要主动参与，创造价值，向他们展示，哦，你想用AI做设计？

Come in and add value, show them, oh, you wanna design using AI?

我会负责搭建设计系统，比如教你设计思维，以及怎么让它做出好的决策。

I'm gonna be the one responsible for setting up the design system for like teaching you design thinking and how to like get it to make good decisions.

对，主动一点。

Yeah, take initiative.

是的，就是那种感觉。

Yes, exactly that sort of thing.

这就是我逐渐看到AI影响品牌设计的方式，尤其是品牌设计。

That's how I've sort of evolved how I'm seeing AI impact, brand design in particular.

我很好奇你对产品设计怎么看，是不是也一样？以前我们设计师负责产出，对吧？

I'm curious for your thoughts on if the same is true of product, is that previously as designers, we were responsible for the output, right?

比如接到一个简报，我们施展魔法，然后把成果交给公司里的合作团队。

Like a brief comes in, we do our magic and we hand over the output to our partner teams in the company.

现在，我觉得趋势是品牌设计师负责创建正确的输入，这样营销团队就能从Claude Design、Lovable或者你们公司用的任何系统里得到他们需要的产出。

Now, where I think where we're going is that brand designers are responsible for creating the right inputs so that marketing team can get the outputs they need from Claude Design, Lovable, like whatever system your company is using.

我们负责设定正确的边界，训练AI，给它提供模板，这样营销团队就能用它来制作社交媒体图片、邮件图片之类的。

Like we are responsible for setting the right guardrails and like training the AI, giving it the templates to work from so that the marketing team can come in and like make their social media graphics, make their email images or whatever using it.

但这并不意味着，我是说，是的，这确实取代了我们之前的一些工作，但你猜怎么着？

And that doesn't mean, I mean like, yeah, that replaces some of the work we were doing, but guess what?

然后我们就能专注于那些更有趣的事情，说到底。

Then we get to focus on the like more interesting stuff at the end of the day.

所以，是的，我现在就是这么想的，专注于输入，而不是仅仅关注输出。

And so that's yeah, how I'm thinking about it now is like focus on the inputs rather than just the outputs.

你觉得这对产品设计来说怎么样？

How does that land with you thinking about product design?

我喜欢这个框架。

I like that framing.

这让我觉得我们现在有点像守护者，或者我喜欢用指挥家这个比喻，对吧？

I mean, it makes me think that we are now kind of like the guardians or I like to use the analogy of like being conductor, right?

所以我们就像在指挥或编排框架和流程。

So we're like conducting or orchestrating the frameworks, the processes.

想想你可以创建的内部工具，这样其他人就能更快地创作，或者更快地得到结果。

Know think about internal tools that you can create so that other people can create faster, or get to outputs faster.

但要想成为这样的统筹者，你得有自己的见解。

But in order to like be that orchestrator, you need to have an opinion.

你得有背景知识。

You need to have context.

你得有想法、有愿景，对吧？

You need to have ideas, vision, right?

说到底，你得告诉AI该做什么。

Like you need to tell the AI what to do at the end of the day.

所以我觉得这种技能越来越重要了。

And so I think that as a skill is becoming more and more important.

而且我认为，那些能让自己的职业生涯长久发展的设计师，得能这样思考和行动。

And I think the designers who are going to future proof their careers well are going to be able to think and execute in this way.

另外我还在想的一个点是可扩展性。

And then another thing that I think about is like scalability.

就是AI如何带来可扩展性和生产力的提升。

Like how AI unlocks scalability and productivity.

我们经常听到这种说法，对吧？

Quote unquote, we hear about that a lot, right?

比如，AI现在能在同样的时间内完成十个工程师的工作之类的。

Like, oh well AI can now do the work of like 10 engineers in the same amount of time or whatever.

那这对我们来说意味着什么呢？

And so what does that mean now for us?

我不知道你有没有感受到这种压力，但我确实感受到了，也看到了这种压力，就是现在对每个员工的生产力期望更高了，对吧？

And I don't know if you're feeling this pressure, but I'm feeling and seeing this pressure too of like, there's an expectation that we're now more productive as individual workers, right?

那这意味着什么呢？

And so what does that mean?

是意味着同时做更多的项目吗？

Does that mean like literally doing more projects at the same time?

是能力的问题吗？

Capacity thing?

还是意味着产生更大的影响力，能在你做的项目中触达更多人，让影响力成倍增长？

Does it mean having more impact, being able to reach more people in the project you're doing, like increase the impact exponentially?

那到底是什么意思呢？

Like what does that mean?

这也是我还在摸索的问题。

It's something I'm still trying to figure out.

但在摸索的过程中，我意识到我的设计流程里有很多工作，至少那些框架，都是重复的。

But as I'm doing that, I'm realizing that a lot of the work I do in my design process, the frameworks at least are repetitive.

那我怎么才能让自己更顺利呢？比如每次拿到一个新简报或者新项目的时候，我都能有一套系统来应对。

So how can I set myself up for success so that every time I come in to you know with a new brief or a new project or whatever, Like I have a system?

我就是这么想的。

That's how I think about it.

我怎么能给自己建立一个系统，让整个设计流程更顺畅呢？

How can I create a system for myself that just streamlines the whole design process?

然后说到你的情况，Charli，我觉得你的团队就像一个小型工作室，对吧？

And then I like in your use case Charli, where your team is kind of the way I think about your team, you're kind of like a studio right?

你们帮助并解锁Kit内部的其他团队。

You help and unlock other teams within Kit.

所以这就说得通了。

And so that makes sense.

你们现在几乎变成了一个内部工具团队。

Like you're almost now becoming a like internal tool team in a way.

我喜欢的是，这能让你们团队腾出时间，专注于更大的问题、更大的挑战、更大的愿景工作，而不是那些……

And I like that that's giving your team time back to focus on the bigger issues, bigger challenge, the bigger vision work rather than the like.

我不喜欢这个词，但我听别人用过，就是那种“杂活”。

I don't like this term but I hear other people use it, it's like the monkey work.

就是那种，哦，只是推像素的活儿，或者，好吧，又有一个图形要做，或者，好吧，又有一个小落地页要弄。

Where it's like, oh just the pushing pixels work or like okay we've got another graphic that needs doing or okay we've got another whatever little landing page that needs being made.

就是重复性的工作。

Like it's repetitive work.

但如果我们能建立系统来简化这些，那我觉得就能腾出更多时间去做更关键的工作。

But if we can set up the systems in place to streamline that, then I think that unlocks more time for us to do the more critical work.

对，我同意。

Yep, I agree.

在我的书里，我是这么划分的：这是低影响的工作，那是高影响的工作。

In my book how I frame it is that's the low impact work versus the high impact work.

低影响的工作不值得你花那么多精力，高影响的工作才值得。

The low impact work deserves lower effort from you than the higher impact work.

不过我得说一句，我觉得这还没能让我的团队专注于高影响的工作，因为我们还没有把正确的输入准备好。

And I will say like one thing, I don't think that it is unlocking my team to focus on the high impact work yet, because we don't yet have the right inputs in place.

这也意味着，我的团队现在有一些输入已经就位了。

And it's meaning that my team, we have some inputs in place.

所以大家用Cloud Design做了很多东西，然后我的团队需要去审核，花很多时间给反馈、调整，直到我们满意它代表我们的品牌，这比他们一开始自己直接做还要花时间。

And so folks are using Cloud Design to create a whole bunch of stuff that my team then needs to review and spend a lot of time like giving feedback, tweaking, like getting into a place where we're happy for it to represent our brand more time than if they would have just created it themselves in the first place.

完全同意。

Totally.

所以我们现在正处在一个混乱的中间阶段，还在摸索怎么解决这个问题。

And so we're in the messy middle right now of figuring that out.

不过，是的，我觉得当我们更专注于输入的时候，我们就能达到那个目标。

But yeah, I think that we'll get there when we focus more on the inputs.

我也喜欢你刚才说的，你把它比作指挥家这个说法。

I also like in what you said that you called it being the conductor.

而且我觉得，至少从品牌设计的角度来看，另一种思考方式是，所有品牌相关的角色。

And I think that another way I'm thinking about it, at least from a brand design perspective is that all brand roles.

比如在我的团队里，有设计师、文案、开发人员，我觉得我们其实都在向创意总监这个角色靠拢。

So like across my team, I've got designers, a writer, developer, and I think we're sort of all converging on being a creative director actually.

我们就像是在说，是的，你有专业的生产技能，但未来更有价值的是你的品味和视野，也就是如何用这些专业技能去影响项目的关键指标。

We're like, yes, you have the specialized skillset to produce, but what's more valuable in the future is your taste and your vision as well for like how to use that specialized skill to impact our project metrics.

你可以依靠AI来处理那些你不具备的技能部分，或者你想提升、想加速的部分，这样你基本上就能独立负责整个项目，而不需要三个人参与。

And you can lean on AI for the like parts of the skillset that you don't have, or that you wanna enhance or move faster or whatever so that you can essentially own a whole project yourself without needing to like have three different people involved on it.

因为你在指挥AI，你给它好的反馈，你设定清晰的愿景，引导它朝着正确的方向前进。

Because you're directing the AI, you're giving it good feedback, you're setting that clear vision to point it towards the right result.

所以我同意，反馈这个技能变得越来越重要，因为当你回到AI那里，在第一次提示之后，你实际上就是在给它反馈，告诉它哪里做对了，哪里做错了，以及下次如何做得更好。

So I agree that that idea of giving feedback becomes an even more important skill because that's essentially what you're doing when you go back to AI after one prompt is you're giving it feedback on what it got right, what it got wrong and how to do better next time.

是的，我在产品领域听到的就是“构建者”这个词。

Yeah, that's what I'm hearing in the product space is this term of builder.

现在每个人都在成为建造者，我在招聘信息里也看到了这个趋势。

Everyone's becoming a builder and you're seeing it too in the open jobs that I'm seeing.

有时候我还是会看到产品设计师的职位，但越来越多的是设计工程师、产品建造者或者设计建造者之类的。

Sometimes I still see product designer but more and more I'm seeing like either design engineer or product builder or design builder or whatever.

我觉得行业还没统一一个术语。

I think the industry has yet to agree on a term.

对。

Yep.

但我现在看到的是各种角色在融合。

But I'm kind of seeing this like blend of roles now.

而且，就像你说的，期望值也在变，现在界限越来越模糊了。

And I'm seeing the expectations changing, to your point, is like now it's kinda blurring.

我觉得更重要的是品味、批判性思维，还有愿景，对吧？

And I think what's becoming more important is things like taste, and that critical thinking, and also like vision, right?

首先得有人告诉AI要做什么，以及愿景是什么。所以，培养强烈的观点和视角，我觉得现在比以往任何时候都重要。

Someone has to tell the AI what to do in the first place and what the vision And so developing those strong opinions and point of views I do think is really important now more than ever.

我想提一个我从很多人那里听到的痛点。

I do want to touch on something that I am hearing from a lot of folks as a pain point.

我想知道你是否也有同感，Charli，也许你没有那么强烈，因为你不做产品，但我听到的是角色正在被反向取代。

And I wonder if you feel this too Charli, maybe not as much because you're not in product, but what I'm hearing is this backwards overtake of roles.

比如，在AI出现之前，我们有产品、设计和工程。

So like if we think pre AI we had product, design and engineering.

每个人都有自己的核心领域和核心技能。

And everyone had their core discipline, their core skill.

现在，我听到的是工程师正在被设计师取代，因为我们不再需要人们坐下来手动写代码了，对吧？

And now what I'm hearing is engineers are kind of being replaced by designers because no longer do we need people to sit down and manually code, right?

设计师开始做vibe coding，他们逐渐熟悉编码环境之类的东西。

Designers are getting into vibe coding, they're getting comfortable and familiar with coding environments and things like that.

所以他们现在能够直接发布到生产环境。

So they're able to now push to production.

然后我还听到，设计师现在感觉被产品取代了，因为产品也在使用这些工具，能够快速制作原型。

And then I'm also hearing that designers are now feeling replaced by product because product is also accessing these tools and able to quickly prototype things.

他们会用AI做个模型、做个原型，发给设计，然后说，嘿，你觉得怎么样？

And they'll use AI to create a mock up, a prototype, send it to design and be like, hey, what do you think?

所以每个人好像都被上游的人取代了，你懂我的意思吧。

And so everyone's kind of getting replaced by the other person up the line, if that makes sense.

那问题就来了，产品呢？

And then the question is, what about product?

那是不是只有产品是安全的？

Is product the only one that's safe then?

因为就像我刚才说的，总得有人有愿景，总得有人有想法，而一直以来这默认就是产品的活儿。

Because as I said a minute ago, someone has to have the vision, someone has to have the idea, and by default that's always been product.

所以是的，我听到设计师们有种尴尬的感觉，就是我在哪儿？

So yeah, I'm hearing from designers this like awkwardness of where am I?

我在这条新的流水线里处于什么位置？以前是很线性的流程，现在完全被打乱了。

Where do I sit in this new assembly line that previously was very waterfall and now it's just completely broken down.

对，我前几天还跟我的搭档马克说，我觉得所有产品角色都在向产品经理这个角色靠拢，就像品牌角色都在向创意总监靠拢一样，因为都是要定愿景的。

Yes, I actually was just saying the other day to Mark, my partner, I think all product roles are converging on being a product manager in the same way that I think brand roles are converging on being a creative director because of that vision setting piece.

所以我觉得，在这个流程里的任何设计师都需要开始像产品经理一样思考。

And so I think that that means that any designer in that process needs to start thinking like a product manager.

我不知道，这就是你多年来一直在做的关于产品策略的内容。

I don't know, that's what like, you've been making content about this for years about product strategy.

所以那些一直关注你的人，他们已经领先一步了，因为他们已经在建立这种思维方式了。

And so like folks who've been following you, they're off to a great start because they've already been building that mindset.

但关键就是，我觉得未来不会有那么专业化的角色了。

But that's the thing is it's like, I don't think we'll have such specialized roles in the future.

就像现在，就像你说的，这已经开始发生了。

Like even in the present, like you said, like it's already starting to happen.

所以工程师有代码这个专业技能，这仍然非常相关和重要，因为有很多事情需要你对AI的输出做出判断，对吧？

So the engineer has that specialized skillset of code, which is still very relevant and important because there's a lot of things where it's like, you gotta make the judgment call on the AI output, right?

如果你有这个专业技能，你知道最好的实施方案，但他们也必须开始像设计师和产品经理一样思考。

And if you've got that specialized skillset, you know the best thing to implement, but they've also got to start thinking like a designer and thinking like a product manager.

我认为设计师和产品经理也应该把这三者中的其他技能结合起来。

And I think that the same is true for designers and product managers to bring on the other skill sets in that trio.

是的，我们现在生活的时代挺奇怪的。

Yeah, it's a weird time we're living in.

而且我觉得挺有意思的是，就在几年前，还有人专门负责决定按钮的颜色。

And I think that isn't it funny how even a couple of years ago, we had people whose whole job it was to like decide the color of a button.

他们整天就干这个。

And like, that's what they spent their time doing.

但现在情况完全不一样了。

Like that's just not the case anymore.

我觉得我们都得变得更多才多艺才行。

We've all gotta be like become more multi skilled, I guess.

对，我觉得几年前是深度优先，现在感觉是广度优先了。

Yes, I feel like a few years ago it was depth over breadth, and now I feel like it's breadth over depth.

有意思。

Interesting.

以前我们真的很看重那些在某个特定技能上钻研得很深的设计师。

In terms of like, we really value designers in the past who went really deep in a particular skill.

不管是什么，比如，我也不知道，微交互之类的，比如我很擅长做动画，给界面增添趣味，或者可能是用户研究，比如我很擅长跟客户聊天，把洞察带回团队。

Whatever that might be, whether it's like, I don't know, micro transitions, like I'm really good at animating things and adding delight to interfaces, or maybe it's like user research, like I'm really good at talking to customers and bringing insights back to the team.

现在呢，我们的角色被期望做更多的事情，所以我觉得广度变得更有价值了。

Now, again, you were expected to do more in our roles and so I feel like breadth is becoming more valuable.

就像你能做这个，能做那个，突然你就知道怎么把设计系统引入到编码代理里，你也知道怎么提交PR、发布东西，然后你还知道怎么在这里创建一个愿景原型。

Like you can do this and this and this and suddenly you know how to bring a design system into a coding agent and you also know how to push a PR and ship something and then you also know how to create a vision prototype over here.

这就是我现在的感受，而且挺有意思的。

Like that's the feeling I'm getting and it's just interesting.

我很好奇这是不是只是一阵风潮，来了又走，还是说现在真的是一个人就能搞定一切的时代了。

I wonder if that's going to be like a fad and that will come and go, or if that's really the future now of like, one person can do it all.

我觉得是深度和广度都要，这可能是个比较敷衍的回答。

I think that it's depth and breadth, which is maybe a cop out answer.

但我担心，如果一个人只专注于什么都能做一点，做得还行，那他就会被有远见、能执行商业策略的AI取代。

But I worry that if someone just focuses on like being able to like do everything somewhat okay, they then get replaced by the AI that has the vision to like execute on a business strategy.

而如果你有深度，你是那个有品味的人，指导AI在某些方面工作，无论是代码库，就像我之前说的，还是微交互、动画之类的，你就成了创造系统的人，其他人可以用这些系统来构建东西，这样你就能让他们的工作变得更好。

Whereas if you have depth and you're that person with a taste level, who's directing the AI on the certain parts, whether it's yeah, like the code base, like I said before, or even micro transitions and animations and things, you become the person creating the systems that everyone else can use to build those so that you're making their work better.

而且我觉得更可能发生的是，我们会作为个人从头到尾负责整个项目，而不是有那么多人在流程里，需要那么多人协作才能启动一个项目。

And I think more what will happen is we'll own projects end to end as individuals instead of having like so many people in the loop and like so many people having to collaborate to get a project off the ground.

我觉得我们会更多地自己负责，同时利用彼此的系统。

I think that we'll just like more own it ourselves and be using each other's systems.

从头到尾？

End to end?

没错。

Exactly.

就像我之前说的，以前是非常瀑布式的流程。

Like I said before, it was very waterfall.

比如产品经理会提出简报和要解决的问题，然后交给设计去创建视觉。

Like a PM would come up with the brief and the problem to be solved, and hand it off to design who would create the visuals.

然后设计再交给工程。

And then design goes to engineering.

对，你觉得在不久的将来，会不会有这样的情况：设计师可以自己从头到尾，比如提出一个倡议，写一些产品需求，执行一些视觉设计。

Yeah, do you think there's a future not far away where it's like a designer could just end to end like come up with an initiative, create some product requirements, execute some visuals.

当然，先收集反馈，再打磨、迭代，最后上线。

Obviously get feedback, refine, iterate, and then push it to production.

没错。

Definitely.

所以我觉得，这三个人，与其像瀑布式那样一起做一个项目，不如各自负责自己的功能或产品，利用其他人根据各自专长创建的AI系统。

And so I think that that group of three, instead of all three working on one project in a waterfall, they're all three working on their individual like feature or product or whatever it is, using the like AI systems that the others have created based on their specialized skill.

我觉得这才是更可能的发展方向。

I think that's where things are more likely to go.

而且我觉得在品牌方面也是这样。

And I think that on the brand side of things too.

不过我也保留完全说错的权利。

But also I reserve the right to be completely wrong.

因为这一切变化太快了。

Because all this is changing very fast.

变化确实太快了。

It changes so fast.

好，那你现在是怎么用AI的？

Okay, so how are you using AI today?

咱们来聊点实际的。

Let's get into the practical a little bit.

比如你每天的工作流程是什么样的？

Like what does your day to day look like or your workflow currently look like?

对，我觉得AI给我最大震撼的就是那种随性编程的感觉。

Yep, I would say the thing that has given me the biggest moment with AI has been vibe coding.

那种感觉就像拥有了超能力一样。

Where it's like made me feel like this is a superpower.

我能写东西，能整理文件。

I can write, I can organize files.

还能处理电子表格。

I can like process a spreadsheet.

也能做设计。

I can design something.

这些都只是帮我更快地完成工作。

That's all like just helping me do the work faster.

我做不到的是从头到尾构建一个完整的网页应用。

What I can't do is build a complete web app end to end.

而且，至少我能搞明白，但那会花我特别长的时间。

And like, at least, I mean, I could figure it out, but it would take me a bloody long time.

我最近一直在做的就是为团队构建内部工具。

And that's what I've been doing recently is building like internal tooling for the kit team.

我建了一个容量规划器，它基本上能帮我们安排日程。

I've built a capacity planner that has like this, it helps us basically to schedule.

我就不细说了，别让我展开讲。

I won't go into the details, don't get me started.

我对这个特别有热情，

I'm very passionate

能聊很多。

about it, could talk about

能聊很久。

it forever.

不过它其实是个排程工具，你输入一个项目，它会估算工时，然后根据团队休假和其他项目等情况，安排到合适的时间段去处理。

But it's like a scheduler where you put in a project, it estimates the hours, arranges it into the time that makes sense to work on it based on teams leave and other projects, etcetera.

我还做了一个素材生成器。

And I've also built an asset generator.

有些人对Figma不太熟，或者我们就是希望严格按照模板来，不想让Claude Design自己发挥。

So folks who aren't confident in Figma and like where we just want it to stick to the template and not have Claude Design, like making its own choices.

他们可以直接进来添加内容，导出各种尺寸的图片，就是这类操作。

They can come in and just add the content, export the images and all the sizes, that sort of thing.

这样当个开发者真的很有意思，感觉就像我是这个项目的产品经理。

And it's been so much fun to like be a builder in that way be like about, I mean, I'm the product manager of this situation.

我想加什么功能？

What features do I wanna add?

怎么让内部用户用起来更方便？这真的超级好玩。

How can I make this more useful to my internal users has been super fun?

所以这就是我目前最主要的实际应用场景。

So that's the main best use case I've had so far.

当然，我也把Claude当作我的工作伙伴，几乎什么事都用它。

Of course, I'm also using Claude as my working partner for literally everything.

对，我们确实经常用Claude Design。

Yeah, we've been using Claude Design a lot.

说实话，我现在才意识到，我大部分AI使用都是在Claude上。

Honestly, most of my AI usage is in Claude, I'm realizing now.

我只是觉得现阶段它正好满足我的需求。

I just feel like it's covering what I need at this stage.

你现在还用Figma吗？

How is your usage of Figma these days?

个人来说，我现在几乎不用Figma做设计了，除非必须去编辑文件，但这不一定是因为AI，而是因为我作为创意总监的角色。

I mean, personally, I'm never designing in Figma these days, unless I have to go in and edit a file, but that is not necessarily due to AI, that is because of the role that I'm in as a creative director.

不过，我觉得我通过AI对品牌输出的贡献，比用Figma时还要多。

More so, I think I found myself contributing more to our like brand output using AI than I was with Figma though.

比如今年我们在自家大会上做主题演讲，那是我们最重要的产品发布，我做了几个动画来传达概念，都是用Core Design做的。

Like for the keynote that we at our kit conference this year, our biggest product launch, I made a couple of the animations to like communicate a concept in that and I made them in core design.

要是以前，我得用After Effects或者Figma Motion来做，那我肯定不会自己做，而是让团队里的某个成员去做，因为那太费时间了。

Whereas I wouldn't have done that if I had to like use after effects or Figma Motion, would have tasked one member of my team to do it instead because it would have taken me too long.

但这次我自己搞定了。

But yeah, did it myself.

所以这挺有意思的，就像我说的，又能亲手做东西了。

And so that's been fun to like, yeah, like I say, be a maker again in that way.

你呢？

What about you?

我现在在休产假。

So I am on maternity leave.

天哪，等我回去上班的时候，估计就像被火车撞了一样，变化太大了，团队用它的方式也完全不一样了。

Oh my gosh, like when I go back to work, it's gonna be like getting hit by a train probably of like how much it's changed and how the team is using it.

因为我二月份离开的时候，当时我的团队其实正在做一个AI产品体验的项目。

Because when I left back in February, at the time actually my team was working on building an AI product experience.

所以这挺有意思的，因为我们是在用AI来构建一个AI体验。

So like it was kind of meta because we were like using AI to build an AI experience.

你是说为你们的客户做的吗？

Like for your customers, you mean?

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

我们当时在做和OpenAI的集成。

We were working on like a integration with OpenAI.

所以我们当时在开发我们的MCP，还在ChatGPT里建一个小应用。

So we were like working on our MCP and like building a little app for within chat GPT.

年初的时候，我们其实还处在转型的初期，所有东西都在Figma里做，但我们正努力把Figma的环境搬到可视化编码环境里，对吧？

At the start of the year, we were still kind of on the cusp where like everything was being done in Figma, but we were trying to push towards like recreating our Figma environments in like a visual coding environment, right?

这样我们就可以用AI来提示和快速制作原型了。

Where we could then use AI to like prompt and prototype.

我休假的时候，情况大概就是这样。

That's kind of like where things were when I went away.

而且，我现在可以想象，团队肯定已经把整个设计系统都放在了一个编码环境里，设计师们可以直接使用。

And I mean, now I can imagine, I'm sure the team has the entire design system available in like a coding environment that the designers can work with.

他们可能，对，经常用提示词来生成东西。

And they're probably, yeah, prompting prompting regularly.

对我来说，vibe coding 也是一个真正的突破。

For me personally, vibe coding was a real unlock as well.

就是，能够自己亲手做出自己的东西，那种感觉真的

Like, actually being able to build my own thing by myself was like just

太棒了。

so incredible.

有想法，然后把它实现出来？

Have the idea and and bring it to life?

没错。

Exactly.

而且有趣的是，我最初想做的其实是一个表单，我记得我找 Claude 帮忙来构建它。

And it's funny because what I actually wanted to build initially, I remember I went to Claude for help to build a form.