设计事务精选：大卫·凯·约翰斯顿

这期与大卫·K·约翰斯顿合作的档案节目最初于2018年发布。当时唐纳德·特朗普正处于他的第一个任期，但黛比和大卫讨论的问题在今天依然具有同等的重要性。

This archival episode with David K. Johnston originally came out in 2018. Donald Trump was in his first term, but the issues Debbie and David talk about are just as relevant today.

他们仍然相信这个人会拯救他们。

He's the person they still believe is going to save them.

他们为什么？为什么是大卫？

They Why? Why David?

因为他们根本与政治脱节，并且他们相信了唐纳德的骗局。而对那些被骗的人来说，要承认自己上当是非常困难的。你必须对自己说，我太傻了，我被骗了。

Because they're just not connected to politics, and they bought Donald's con. And it's very hard for people who've been conned to admit they were taken. And you have to say, I was dumb. I got taken to yourself.

来自TED音频系列节目，这是《设计 matters》节目，由黛比·诺曼主持。十四年来，黛比·米尔曼一直在与设计师和其他创意人士对话，探讨他们在做什么，他们如何成为今天的自己，以及他们正在思考什么。在这期节目中，黛比·米尔曼与大卫·K·约翰斯顿探讨调查性新闻报道的乐趣。

From the TED Audio Collective, this is design matters with Debbie Noeman. For fourteen years now, Debbie Milman has been talking with designers and other creative types about what they do, how they got to be who they are, and what they're thinking about. On this podcast, Debbie Milman talks with David K Johnston about the fun of investigative journalism.

如果你认真对待记者这个职业，它最棒的地方在于你永远都是研究生，唯一的区别是公众会阅读你的论文。

The great thing about being a journalist, if you treat it seriously, is you're a perpetual graduate student, and the only difference is the public reads your papers.

大家好，我是詹姆斯，我是法哈德。

Hello, guys. I'm James. And I'm Fuhad.

我们是《Shits and Geeks》播客。

And we're Shits and Geeks podcast.

本节目由Boost Mobile赞助播出，他们提供可靠的全国范围网络覆盖，并有30天无理由退款保证。如果您不满意服务，可以随时退款，无需任何解释。

And this episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile, offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a thirty day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back. No questions asked.

兄弟，你也知道情况。很明显，我用的是一个运营商的服务，你用的是另一个运营商的服务。有时候我信号很好，而你却信号很差。

Brother, you know how it goes. Obviously, I'm on one provider. You're on another provider. Sometimes I have good signal. You have bad signal.

你的信号不好，我的信号很好。我就会感到压力，然后我在想，我是不是应该换一个？值得换吗？换了会更好吗？

You have bad signal. I have good signal. And I get stressed, and I think, shall I change? Is it worth changing? Is it gonna make it better?

我不知道。我已经用了很久的运营商服务了。

I don't know. I've been with my provider for a long time.

我也是。

Same.

这让人很焦虑，而且我不想麻烦。朋友们，现在有转折了。Boost Mobile 给你提供的全国覆盖范围和网络速度，和你现在所习惯的一样，但价格却低得多。

It's anxiety inducing, and I don't want the hassle. Well, guys and girls, here's the twist. Boost Mobile gives you the same nationwide coverage and network speeds that you're already used to for way less money.

没错。Boost Mobile 给你提供不限量的套餐计划，每月只需 25 美元起。没有涨价，没有合约，不需要多设备捆绑，只有稳定的覆盖和真正的性价比。

That's right. Boost Mobile gives you unlimited plans starting just $25 a month. No price hikes, no contracts, no multiline faff, just solid coverage and proper value.

如果你坐在那里想，兄弟，这听起来太好了，不真实吧？别担心。他们提供 30 天无条件退款保证。你可以免费试用，如果不喜欢，可以退还你的服务费用。选择 Boost Mobile 有很多好处。通过与漫游合作伙伴的协作，Boost Mobile 覆盖了全美 99% 的人口区域。

And if you're sitting there thinking, bro, this sounds too good to be true, don't worry. You've got a thirty day money back guarantee. Try it risk free, and if you don't love it, you get your service fees back. There are plenty of benefits when you switch to Boost Mobile. Together with their roaming partners, Boost Mobile covers 99% of The US population.

5G 网络速度并非在所有地区都可用。

Five g speeds not available in all areas.

无论你是在刷网页、看视频，还是沉浸在群聊中，Boost Mobile 都能为你提供稳定连接。

So whether you're scrolling, streaming, or just lost in a group chat, you're covered.

归根结底，Boost Mobile 让你省钱的同时，不会牺牲网络覆盖，而且没有人会把你绑定在合约里。

Bottom line, Boost Mobile gives you the freedom to save money without sacrificing coverage, and no one's locking you into anything.

访问最近的 Boost Mobile 门店，或在线访问 boostmobile.com 找到他们。

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online at boostmobile.com.

那是 boostmobile.com。可靠的服务，适当的覆盖范围，没有压力。

That's boostmobile.com. Reliable service, proper coverage, and no stress.

本节目由 Lumin 赞助。你的新陈代谢就像身体的引擎，它为你的所有活动提供动力，从你的行动方式到你的感受。当它顺畅运转时，你会明显感觉不同。精力更充沛、睡眠更好、恢复更佳。

This episode is sponsored by Lumin. Your metabolism is like your body's engine. It powers everything you do from how you move to how you feel. And when it's running smoothly, you feel the difference. More energy, better sleep, improved recovery.

Lumen 是全球首款手持式代谢教练，只需每天早上对着它呼气，它就能帮助你了解身体正在燃烧的是脂肪还是碳水化合物。然后，配套的应用程序会根据你身体的代谢需求，提供每日个性化的营养指导。这个夏天，与你的新陈代谢保持同步，无论你是在运动、休息，还是两者之间，都能感觉最佳状态。温暖的季节即将来临，重新焕发你的健康与活力。

Lumen is the world's first handheld metabolic coach that helps you understand what your body is burning, fats or carbs, just by breathing into it each morning. Then the app gives you daily nutrition guidance personalized to your body's needs. This summer, stay in sync with your metabolism and feel your best, whether you're active, resting, or anything in between. The warmer months are coming. Spring back into your health and fitness.

访问 lumen.me/ted 可享受 10% 的折扣。即访问 lumen.me/ted 即可享受购买 10% 的折扣优惠。感谢 Lumen 赞助本节目。

Go to lumen.me/ted to get 10% off your Lumen. That's lumen.me/ted for 10% off your purchase. Thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this episode.

感谢你将汽车卖给 Carvana。这是你的支票。

Thanks for selling your car to Carvana. Here's your check.

哇，我什么时候到这儿的？

Woah. When did I get here?

你这是什么意思？

What do you mean?

我发誓就在刚才，我还在网上接受了 Carvana 提供的优厚报价。我一定是穿越到未来了。

I swear it was just moments ago that I accepted a great offer from Carvana online. I must have time traveled to the future.

就在刚才，我们提供当天提车服务。这是你那优厚报价的支票。

It was just moments ago. We do same day pickup. Here's your check for that great offer.

这真的是未来。

It is the future.

就是现在，就是Carvana带来的便利。抱歉让你感到震惊。

It's it's the present and just the convenience of Carvana. Sorry to blow your mind.

没关系，这种情况经常发生。

It's all good. Happens all the time.

以更便捷的方式卖掉你的车

Sell your car the convenient way

卖给Carvana。

to Carvana.

提车时间可能有所变化，且可能产生相关费用。

Pickup times may vary, fees may apply.

壮丽的景色、瀑布的薄雾、日落时分的山顶。一切都在户外更美好。通过All Trails应用，你可以探索全球超过45万条徒步路线，发现自然的精华所在。今天就下载免费应用程序，开启你的下一段冒险之旅吧。

Epic views, waterfall mists, summit sunsets. It's all better outside. And with all trails, you can discover the best of nature with over 450,000 trails around the world. Download the free app today and find your next adventure.

戴维·K·约翰斯顿是一名调查记者。他的调查报道曾让多名政府官员、商人和政界人士的职业生涯终结。他曾在2003年凭借揭露企业如何操纵税法为自己谋利的系列报道获得普利策奖。自从2016年总统大选以来，需要揭露的问题比以往任何时候都多，而约翰斯顿也一直非常忙碌。去年，他撰写了《唐纳德·特朗普的诞生》一书，被《纽约时报》称为对特朗普的尖锐控诉。

David k Johnston is a muckraker. His investigative journalism has upended the careers of government officials, businessmen, and politicians. He won a Pulitzer Prize in 2003 for beat reporting that showed how corporations were twisting tax laws to their advantage. Since the twenty sixteen presidential election, there's been more muck to rake than ever, and Johnston has been busy. Last year, he wrote The Making of Donald Trump, which The New York Times called a searing indictment.

他最新的著作讲述了特朗普政府在执政第一年所作所为，书名为《情况比你想象的还要糟》（It's Even Worse Than You Think），深入探讨了特朗普政府对美国的影响。戴维·K·约翰斯顿，在当今美国新闻业面临诸多挑战的时代，非常欢迎您今天做客Design Matters节目。

His latest book about what the Trump administration has been up to in its first year is called It's Even Worse Than You Think, what the Trump administration is doing to America. David K Johnston, in a time when journalism is under attack in this country, a very warm welcome today on Design Matters.

嗯，谢谢你邀请我，黛比。戴维，我

Well, thank you for having me, Debbie. David, I

了解到，你的母亲是一位非常富有的商人的独生女，同时也是一位被剥夺继承权的女继承人。她到底是怎么被剥夺继承权的呢？

understand your mother was the only child of a very wealthy businessman as well as a disowned heiress. How on earth did she get disowned?

我的经纪人想让我写一个关于这件事的电影剧本。我母亲在1941年出庭作证，指控她自己的父亲。那是珍珠港事件之前，美国当时还相对纯朴。他因为与情人丈夫的情感纠纷而被起诉。如果你现在走进一家律师事务所，对律师说，我想起诉这个女人，她让我丈夫感情疏远，你一定会被嘲笑地赶出来。但在当时，却真的开庭审理了。

My agent wants me to write a a screenplay about this. My mother testified against her father in the 1941. So before Pearl Harbor, when America was still relatively innocent, he was tried for alienation of affection by his mistress's husband. Now if you wanna do your to a lawyer today and said, wanna sue this woman, my alienating my husband, you'd be laughed out of the, law office. But back then, there was a trial.

我祖父输了官司，不得不赔偿1万美元，这在1941年是一笔巨款。而指控他的主要证人，就是我母亲，她提供了他们住酒店和出行的记录。

My grandfather lost. He had to pay $10,000, which is a lot of money in 1941. And the star witness against him who had the records of the hotel rooms and the trips was my mother.

天哪，她是怎么找到或拿到所有这些信息的？

Oh my goodness. How did she find all that information or get all that information?

她在他的公司里工作过。

Worked for him in the business.

真是个 scandalous 的背景。

Quite a scandalous background

那次审判甚至引起了远方大城市报纸的报道。其中一家报纸的标题是‘北地之罪’。

there. The the trial was covered by newspapers from far away in some of the big cities. One of them, the headline was sin in the Northwoods.

听起来像本言情小说。你曾描述你的父亲是一个来自新奥尔良的男人，只有三年级文化，却每天读一本书。我还听说他曾经与富兰克林·德拉诺·罗斯福总统共进晚餐，是怎么回事？

Sounds like a romance novel. You've described your dad as a man from New Orleans with a third grade education who read a book every day. And I understand he once had dinner with president Franklin Delano Roosevelt. How did that come about?

我父亲在1932年是亚利桑那州青年民主党主席，并且他与罗斯福总统同乘一艘船。我父亲19岁时离开新奥尔良，因为他无法忍受那里的种族主义。这让他一生都感到愤怒。我小时候，我和我哥哥如果在家吃晚饭，因为他是厨师，即使他像大多数残疾退伍军人一样身体有残疾，他仍然坚持工作。他会在电视机前站定，把手放在我们脖子后面，让我们看着新闻里伯明翰警察局长布尔·康纳在攻击人们之类的画面。

My father was the president of Young Democrats of Arizona in 1932, and he was on the DS with FDR. My father left New Orleans when he was 19 years old because he couldn't stand the racism. It drove him crazy his whole life. When I was a boy, my brother and I, if he was home at dinnertime because he was a chef, and even though he was disabled like most disabled war veterans, he continued to work. He would make a stand in front of the news, put his hands on the back of our necks, and we would see, you know, Bull Connor attacking people or whatever.

然后我们坐下吃饭，我父亲会大发雷霆，他会说：‘如果不是上帝的恩典，那个位置本该是你。你本可能生在南方，贫穷又黑人，而你绝不允许这样的事情发生。’

And we would sit down, and my father would go into a rage, and he would say, there, but for the grace of god, go you. You could have been born poor and black in the South, and you will not allow this.

哇。所以我知道他那种愤怒也确实激发了你对不平等和种族主义的强烈愤怒。这一切就是从那时开始的。

Wow. So I understand that that that fury that he had really helped fuel your outrage against inequality and racism as well. That's where it really began.

是的。但我同时也坚信，我们应当拥有一个能够提升人类精神的社会。我相信这才是我们宪法的真正目的。如果我们能够自我管理，并且管理得当，我们就能看到人类作为一个社会能走多远，因为我们是社会性动物。我们需要时刻意识到，那些拥有权力和特权的人中，虽然并非所有人，但确实有足够多的人在扭曲规则，在压迫他人，在以牺牲他人利益为代价来谋取私利。

Yes. But I also am someone who believes very strongly that we wanna have a society that ennobles the human spirit. That I believe is the real purpose of our constitution. That if we govern ourselves and we do it wisely, we will see how far human beings as a society, because we're social animals, can advance. And we need to constantly be aware that those people who have positions of power and privilege, not all of them, but enough of them that it matters, try to twist the rules, try to oppress other people, try to take care of themselves at the expense of other people.

我职业生涯的很多时间都在关注这些内容。我在《纽约时报》担任税务记者的十三年间，每年都会抓住四、五、六次，甚至多达十次的机会记录和报道收入不平等日益加剧的现象。当时很多人批评我的报道，但我展示了政府政策才是这一问题的主要推手。正是这些政策导致了我们能够采取行动的现实，即美国底层90%人口的收入几乎没有任何增长。事实上，到2012年2月，美国底层90%人口的收入甚至比1967年时还要低，那一年我刚好高中毕业。

And I've spent a lot of my career doing this. The thirteen years I was at the New York Times as the tax reporter, I documented every chance I got, which was four, five, six, ten stories a year, how inequality was on the rise, a lot of people attacked what I was writing back then, and showing how government policy was the real big driver. Certainly the driver we can do something about in the fact that the bottom 90% of Americans' incomes are going nowhere. In fact, in 02/2012, the bottom 90% of Americans had smaller incomes than in 1967, the year I graduated from high school.

怎么会这样呢？

How was that possible?

这是因为政府政策的影响，而我们在新闻业中往往不太关注政府政策本身。我们更关注政治，而不是政策，这些政策通过多种方式压低了工资水平。1973年，大约有37%的私营部门工人加入了工会，但事实上，大约80%的工人都因此受益，因为许多雇主并不想让工会存在，主要是因为工会的工作规则，而不是因为工资问题。这些雇主愿意支付更高的工资、提供更好的待遇，以避免工会进入。这是一种社会福祉。但我们已经摧毁了工会。

Because government policies, and we don't tend to cover what government does so much in journalism. We cover politics, not policies, have pushed down wages in a variety of ways. In 1973, about 37% of private sector workers belonged to unions, but about 80% of workers benefited from that because many employers who didn't want unions, mostly because of the work rules, not because of the pay, were willing to pay premium wages and treat workers better to keep unions out. That's a social good. We've decimated unions.

现在私营部门的工会成员比例只有大约6%。我们社会的一些变化导致了几乎所有有年幼孩子的母亲都必须外出工作。当然，我绝不是在主张女性应该待在家里。我的妻子就是一位CEO。但你不应该被迫去工作。

It's now about 6% of private sector workers. We created changes in our society that led to almost all mothers of small children going to work. Now I'm certainly not arguing women should stay home. My wife's a CEO. But you shouldn't have to go to work.

我们应该拥有一个让你可以花时间陪伴孩子的社会。如果我们能做到这一点，我们将会变得更好。一些欧洲国家要求每位生育孩子的父母每次孩子出生时都可以带薪休假一年，并提供补贴，因为他们认为这是对未来国家的投资。但我们显然在这里拒绝了这种理念。从根本上说，权力的问题是我一生都感兴趣的主题。

We ought to have a society where you can spend time with your children. We'll be better off if we do that. Some European countries require you to take a year off work each time you have a child and subsidize you on the theory that this is an investment in the future of your country. We obviously reject that idea here. So fundamentally, this issue of power is what's interested me my whole life.

这促使我去研究这些制度是如何运作的，公司又是如何运作的。最终，我开始研究古代世界的法律，并在雪城大学法学院教授这门课多年，尽管我并不是一名律师，而且还在研究生商学院任教了八年。因为这是理解今天法律为何如此的一种方式。我们要回溯根源，学习其原则和理论。

And that's led me to study, well, how do these systems work? How do corporations work? And it eventually led me to study the law of the ancient world, which I taught at Syracuse University's College of Law, though I'm not a lawyer and it's graduate business school for eight years. Because it was a way to understand why is the law the way it is today. We'll go back and look at the root and learn the principle and theory.

如果你能掌握任何事物的原则和理论，无论是设计、税收还是军事战略，你对这些事物的理解都会比仅仅了解其操作机制要深入得多。

And if you learn the principle and theory of anything, whether it's design or taxes or military strategy, you will understand things much more deeply than if you just know the mechanics.

但你的新闻事业生涯，大卫，是相当偶然地开始的。你在上学时赢得了一场演讲比赛。

But your journalism career, David, started rather serendipitously. You won a speech contest when you were in school.

哦，我赢得了很多次。大概有四五十次吧。

Oh, I won a lot of them. Probably 40 or 50 of them.

我赢得了很多演讲比赛。当地报社来给你拍照时，还请你写专栏，按20美分一英寸付稿费。报社喜欢我的文章，不久之后就让我报道学区委员会和市议会。那时我拿的是最低工资。所以你能告诉我们，18岁那年，当《圣何塞信使报》的一位记者找到你并给你一些建议时，发生了什么吗？

Won a lot of speech contests. The local paper who was shooting your picture asked you to write a column, offered you 20¢ an inch. The paper liked it, and shortly thereafter, they had you covering the school board and the city council. You were making minimum wage. So can you tell us what happened when you were 18 and a reporter for the San Jose Mercury approached you and gave you some advice?

嗯，那时候在加州圣克鲁兹，每周二监督委员会开会时都有五六个记者。我当时刚读完夜校高中，已经结婚并且有了孩子。这位我从十岁或十一岁就认识的圣塔玛丽亚本地记者正好在度假。他在教堂的长椅上挨着我坐下，那时我们坐在那里旁听监督委员会会议，就是那种带靠背的长条座椅。他问了我几个问题，我回答了他，然后他带我去了一家咖啡馆，就是肯·凯西写到的那种激发灵感的地方喝咖啡。我当时口袋里真的连一分钱都没有。

Well, back then in Santa Cruz, California, there were five or six reporters every Tuesday at the Board of Supervisors. I had just finished night high school, was a father, was married. And these local Santa Santa Maria reporter, whom I'd known since I was 10 years old or 11 years old, was on vacation. And this guy slides up next to me in the church pews where we sat as the board of supervisors met, those bench seats, and asked me a couple of questions and I answered them and he took me to the catalyst that Ken Kesey wrote about to have a cup of coffee. I literally didn't have a dime in my pocket.

我记得你那时鞋上还有个洞。

I think you also had a hole in your shoe.

是的，我的鞋上确实有个洞。他开始问我一些问题。第二天或者第三天，他告诉我，我可以去《圣何塞信使报》面试。我说，杰克，你搞错了，我才18岁。

I had a hole in my shoe. And he started asking me about things. And the next day or the day after, he told me that I had a job interview at the San Jose Mercury. And I said, excuse me, Jack. I'm 18 years old.

我刚刚才高中毕业，他们不可能会考虑录用我。他说，我才不在乎你多大年纪，你能行。于是我就去了《圣何塞信使报》。

I just finished high school. They're not gonna talk to me. And he said, I don't care how old you are. You can do this. So I went over to the San Jose Mercury.

我本来要见的人提前去吃晚饭了。我见到的两位编辑整整嘲笑了我一个小时。他们叫来了一位研究生出身的校对员，让他来取笑我。‘琼西，你现在在干嘛？’‘我在读研究生。’‘那你为什么要这么做？’

The man I was to see had gone to dinner early. The two editors I met with just made fun of me for an hour. They brought over a graduate student who was a copy boy and used him to, you know, so what are you doing, Jonesy? Well, I'm getting a graduate degree. And why are you doing that?

‘哦，希望你以后能成为我们这里的一名记者吧。琼西，去给我倒杯咖啡。’然后他就走开了。‘你以为我们会录用你？’

Well, I hope you'll be a reporter here. Okay. Jonesy, go get me a cup of coffee. He'd walk away. You think we're gonna hire you?

感觉就像受刑一样。

I was like torture.

是的，那一小时我硬着头皮熬过去了。当我回到圣克鲁兹后，杰克·弗雷泽说：‘孩子，他们对你印象非常深刻。’我说：‘真的吗？’他说：‘当然是真的。’

Yeah. Well, it it was it was an hour I endured. And when I went back to Santa Cruz, Jack Fraser said, boy, they were really impressed with you. And I said, really? And he said, yeah.

他还说：‘你每三周回去一次，直到他们录用你。’九个月之后，那时我还太年轻，都没意识到又到了那位圣克鲁兹记者休假的时间。总编对我说：‘假设我录用你，十年后你打算做什么？’我看着他，指着他说：‘我会坐在那张椅子上，管理这家报社。’

And he said, just go back every three weeks until they hire you. And nine months later, being so young, it hadn't occurred to me that it was vacation time again and the Santa Cruz guy would go on vacation. The managing editor said to me, suppose I hired you. What are you gonna do in ten years? And I looked at him, pointed at him, and said, I'm gonna sit in that chair, and I'm gonna run this joint.

很好。然后

Nice. And

他雇用了我，短短几周内，我的报道就登上了头版。

he hired me, and I was on the front page in a matter of weeks.

但在那之前，你有关报纸的唯一经历，我记得，就是你小时候送报纸，早上四份，下午三份，对吗？

But now prior to that, your only experience in newspapers, I believe, was your seven newspaper routes as a delivery boy, four in the morning and three in the afternoon. Is that correct?

其实不是。我曾为两家周报工作过，就是你之前提到的那家和另外一家周报，我在这两家之间分配时间。但那段经历真的非常有限。当我第一次出现在《圣何塞信使报》半岛分社的时候，罗伯特·林赛——他后来成为《纽约时报》著名的记者、西海岸分社社长，还写了《隼与雪人》并改编成电影，是史上最杰出的记者之一——他最近告诉我，当我出现时，大家都很疑惑：他们怎么会找来这样一个人？

Well, no. No. I worked for two weekly newspapers, the one that you mentioned earlier and another weekly newspaper, and I split my time between them. And but it was it was such minimal experience. When I turned up at the San Jose Mercury Peninsula Bureau, Robert Lindsay, who became a famous New York Times reporter, West Coast bureau chief, did the Falcon and the Snowman and the subsequent movie, And one of the greatest reporters of all time, you know, Bob told me just recently that when I came, they were all like, what have they done here?

这家伙完全没有真正的报道经验，还是个十几岁的少年。他说，我们花了几周时间才意识到，嘿，这人写的报道还挺老练的。

This guy has no real reporting experience. He's a teenager. And he said, you know, it took us a couple of weeks, and we went, hey. This guy is writing sophisticated stories.

于是他们就把你安排在头版了。

So they put you on the front page.

是的。所以事情发展得非常顺利。

And yes. And so things went went very well.

我读到过，你最初选择新闻业是因为不想贫穷。对的。如果当时《圣何塞信使报》没有录用你，你觉得你会成为一名洛杉矶警察局的警官吗？我记得那曾是你的志向。

I read that you originally pursued journalism because you didn't want to be poor. Right. If the San Jose Mercury hadn't hired you, do you think you'd have ended up an LAPD cop? I think believe that was your aspiration.

是的。我本来会成为洛杉矶警察局的一名穿卡其制服的警官，我的目标是当上凶杀案侦探。

Yeah. I would have become a khaki officer at the LAPD, and I my goal would have been to be homicide detective.

你现在还有这种志向吗？

Still have any of that aspiration in you?

嗯，你知道吗，我在《洛杉矶时报》时花了三年时间揭露洛杉矶警察局。我是第一个这么做的人，比其他任何人都早得多。

Well, I did you know, I spent three years of my life exposing the LAPD when I was at the LA Times. I was the first reporter to do this way before anybody else.

但他们还是曾在你约会的时候监视你？

And yet they spy on you when you were on a date once?

我跟后来成为我妻子的那位女士第一次见面是相亲，我们现在已经结婚三十五年零八个月、两周零四天了，或者说这是第

I went on a blind date with the woman I've been married to today for, let's see, thirty five years, eight months, two weeks, and four days is this the

十九天。

nineteen day.

时间还不够长。幸运的是，她也没有逃跑，即使我一开始就告诉她我有六个孩子，或者当我告诉她说洛杉矶警察局曾经监视过我们。

Not long enough. And luckily, she didn't run away either when she found out when I told her right up front, I have six kids or when I told her that the LAPD had spied on us.

我相信你现在有八个孩子了。

And you have eight kids now, I believe.

没错。当时洛杉矶警察局被认为是世界上最诚实、最高效、最有成效的警察部门。我花了三年时间证明他们并不诚实，也不高效。达里尔·盖茨曾声称洛杉矶发生了严重的犯罪激增，因此获得了全球新闻报道，但我证明了所谓激增只是德国汽车上爆破用的收音机被盗而已。

That's right. So the coverage of the LAPD, which they were regarded as the world's most honest, efficient, effective police department. I spent three years showing that they weren't honest. They weren't effective. Daryl Gates got worldwide news coverage for claiming there was a huge crime surge in LA, and I showed that it was the theft of blowpunk radios from German cars.

如果你把这些数据剔除，犯罪率实际上是下降的。我还证明了他指派警员与女性发生关系以获取政治情报，一名洛杉矶警察局的便衣警察引发了1981年5月的洛杉矶暴动。我用录像带证明了这一点，还揭露了许多其他事情，直到《洛杉矶时报》让我停止报道。

And if you just remove that from the data, crime was down. I proved that he assigned officers to sleep with women to get political information, that an LAPD undercover officer started the May 1981 riot in LA. Used videotape to prove that, and a lot of other stuff until the LA Times shut me down.

他们怎么做到的？

How did they do that?

他们只是把我调到了妇女版面去写专题文章。

They just sent me to the women's section to write features.

真的吗？

Really?

是的。所以我写了我称之为调查性特写的文章。其中一件事是我亲自追捕了一名非常凶残的杀人犯，并当面对质了他。这起案件涉及一名年轻人，他因一桩特别令人发指的谋杀案被审判了四次。案件中的法官非常支持检方，但他是黑人，而受害者是白人，凶手是黑人。这位法官驳回了定罪。

Yes. So I wrote what I called investigative features. And one of the things I did there was I hunted down personally a very vicious killer, confronted him. This was a case of a young man who was was tried four times for a particularly repugnant murder. And the judge in the case who was a very pro prosecution judge but black, and this was a black on white killing, threw out the conviction.

但上诉法院恢复了原判。当他再次接受量刑时，这位法官知道我正在调查这个案件，他说：库克斯先生，本法庭认为你是无辜的，但我根据上诉法院的裁定必须对你量刑，因此我判处你十五年有期徒刑，终身监禁。我为他争取到了第五次审判。真正的凶手作为证人出庭。洛杉矶县治安部门提供了此前没人见过的明确证据，证明这个年轻人无罪，他最终被判无罪。

And it was reinstated by the court of appeals. And when he came up for sentencing, the judge, who knew I was working on this story, said, mister Cooks, this court believes you are innocent, but I am required by the court of appeals to sentence you, and I hereby sentence you to fifteen years life in prison. I got him a fifth trial. The real killer was called as a witness. The sheriff's department in LA produced evidence that nobody had seen that clearly exonerated the kid, and he was acquitted.

当然，真正的凶手却逍遥法外了，因为五次审判中，目击证人都出庭作证说：就是这个人干的。

The real killer, of course, went scot free because five times, the eyewitness had gotten up on the stand and said, that's the guy who did it.

这就是所谓的正义。

There's justice for you.

是啊。不过，《洛杉矶时报》从未把这篇报道放在头版，而是把它埋在了报纸的后面。为什么？因为我惹了太多麻烦，已经不被报社所接纳。

Yeah. Well, the LA Times never got that story on the front page. They buried it in the back of the paper. Why? I was on the outs for having disturbed too much trouble.

在我离开报社前不久，报社的主编——他通常是个不错的人，也经营着一份出色的报纸。我不想断章取义。《洛杉矶时报》在全球都有出色的新闻报道，拥有庞大的记者队伍，薪水也很高。但他们就是不想调查本地的权势机构。他把我叫到办公室说：我想你没有意识到，加州没有一个重要人物坐在那把椅子上向我投诉过你。

I had I shortly before I left the paper, the editor of the paper, who was generally a very good guy and ran a great newspaper. I don't wanna put this out of context. LA Times had fantastic journalism all over the world, had a huge staff, paid people well. They just didn't wanna do investigations of the local establishment. Called me in his office, and he said, I don't think you appreciate that there isn't a single important person in California who has sat in that chair pointing at me and complained about you.

我说：比尔，他们有没有说过我的事实有误？他说：你没明白重点。我说：可能确实没明白。

And I said, well, Bill, did they ever say I don't have my facts right? And he said, you're not getting the message. And I said, probably not.

那么你是怎么知道要追踪这些新闻的？比如，你是怎么知道犯罪率上升是因为收音机造成的，而不是真实的暴力犯罪增加？

Now how did you know to follow these stories? How did you know, for example, that it was the radios that were increasing the crime rates and not actual violent crime?

嗯，我并不知道是收音机的问题。我只知道洛杉矶警察局，那是在计算机普及之前，所有的犯罪报告都记录在大账本上，绿色的大本子。所以我只需要去那里坐下来分析这些数据。我职业生涯的起点就是这么开始的，当时我第一次报道圣克鲁兹县监督委员会的新闻，而那些委员们根本不知道我其实是个高中生。

Well, I didn't know it was the radios. What I knew was that the LAPD, this is before computers, kept all their crime reports on big ledger sheets, big green books. And so all I had to do was go over there and sit down and analyze the data. And that's what started my career when I first covered the Santa Cruz County Board of Supervisors. And the trustees didn't know I was a high school student.

有一天他们发布了一份新闻稿。明年，圣克鲁兹一栋估值为34,211美元的普通住宅的房产税将增加43.02美元。这条信息在当地日报第二天刊登出来，但除非你拥有一栋估值恰好为34,211美元的房子，否则这信息完全毫无意义。我只是把这份新闻稿翻过来，用长除法计算了一下，结果大致就是我接下来要说的内容：明年，每你房子价值的一千美元，房产税将增加1美元32美分。然后人们注意到了这一点。

They gave out a press release one day. Next year, property taxes on the average home in Santa Cruz valued at $34,211 will go up by $43.02. Utterly meaningless information which appeared in the local daily the next day unless you own a house valued at exactly $34,211. I just turned the thing over and with long division, did the math and it's roughly what I'm about to say and that is I said next year, property taxes will go up by a dollar and 32¢ for every thousand dollars of value in your house. And people noticed this.

很快，旧金山NBC广播电台的早间节目主持人就在节目中朗读了我的一篇报道，并说，为什么我们看不到类似这样的内容出现在《旧金山纪事报》上？为什么这种新闻没有被称作县新闻，发布在圣克鲁兹当地？大多数记者非常准确地报道了事件的官方版本，以及对官方版本的官方批评。我很快意识到，真正的故事其实是事件的非官方版本。

And pretty soon, the NBC radio station, San Francisco's morning drive time guy, is reading a story of mine on the air and saying, why don't we get things like this in the San Francisco Chronicle? Why isn't this something called the county news down in Santa Cruz? Most journalists very accurately report the official version of events and the official criticisms of the official version of events, and I very quickly realized that the story was the unofficial version of events.

你怎么知道这些非官方版本的事件是真实的？

How do you know that the unofficial story of the events are true?

因为你必须核实、交叉验证。你知道，就是唐纳德常说的那些假新闻。唐纳德本人就是假新闻的巨大制造者。他一辈子都在散布虚假故事。他散布过一些故事，获得了全国性的报道，比如麦当娜、女演员金·贝辛格，以及后来成为法国第一夫人的卡拉·布吕尼都曾是他的情人。实际上，他根本没见过其中两位，而第三位则称他是个疯子。

Because you have to check and cross check and, you know, this fake news stuff that Donald says. Donald has been a huge perpetrator of fake news. He spent his whole life planting stories. He planted stories and got national coverage that Madonna and the actress Kim Basinger and Carla Bruni, later first lady of France, were his lovers. He hadn't met two of them, and the third one called him a lunatic.

是哪一个？卡拉·布吕尼称他是个疯子。他就是凭空捏造，在各地散布虚假消息。因此，他对假新闻非常熟悉。我早就意识到，你必须证明你所写的内容是真实的。

Which one? Carlo Bruni called him a lunatic. And he just makes stuff up, and he plants false stories all over the place. So he's very familiar with fake news. What I realized early on is you just had to prove what you had.

你必须拥有无可置疑的、可验证的事实。我逐渐学到的一个教训是，如果你写一篇关于警察做了什么英勇事迹的报道，即使里面有很多事实错误，他们也不会在意。但如果你写的是关于一个腐败警察的报道，哪怕有一个逗号可以被质疑，他们就会试图把你开除。这真的发生在我身上过。

You had to have verifiable facts nobody could question. One of the lessons I learned over time is, you know, if you you write a story about the cops and something they did that's heroic, you can have a whole bunch of factual errors. They don't care. You write a story about a crooked cop and you get a comma. Like, this literally happened to me.

只要有一个逗号别人能挑出毛病，他们就会抓住不放。所以你必须要有坚定的信念，必须非常小心和细致。这也包括编辑不能随意改动你的稿子。在我的职业生涯中，有些编辑改动了他们不理解、不了解或者以为是在改进文章的地方，但他们并不了解事实。

You get a comma somebody can challenge. They will try and get you fired for it. And so you gotta have, you know, some fortitude about it, and you've gotta be very careful and very thorough. And it includes, you know, editors not messing your stuff up. I've had a some things happen in my career I'm not exactly happy about where editors change things they didn't understand or they didn't know or they thought they were making the story better, but they didn't know the facts.

他们并不是恶意的。只是，这并不是一件简单容易的事情。

And so they weren't malicious. It's just, this is not a simple and easy thing to do.

当被问及你会给年轻记者什么建议时，你曾这样说过：只学习足够的新闻知识，以了解报道和组织写作的基本方法。把你的教育重点放在扎实的知识上，这些知识能为你提供工具，比如统计学、化学、物理学、文学或历史。但重点是要深入理解事物的运作原理。去学习哲学吧。

When asked about what advice you would give to young journalists, you stated this. Only study enough journalism to understand the basics of how to report and how to organize your writing. Focus your education on hard ideas that will equip you with tools, statistics, chemistry, physics, literature, or history. But focus on how to deeply understand how things work. Study philosophy.

不要把时间浪费在一堆愚蠢的新闻课程上。

Don't waste your time in a whole bunch of stupid journalism courses.

仍然相信这一点。是的。我曾在Spoiled Children大学教了八年新闻学。抱歉，是南加州大学。

Still believe that. Yeah. And I taught journalism for eight years at the University of Spoiled Children. I'm sorry. The University of Southern California.

那么你教的是什么课程呢？如果你建议他们不应该选课，除非也许你的课不是那些愚蠢的课程之一。

And and so what were you teaching that would be meaningful if if you're recommending that they shouldn't be taking or unless maybe your class wasn't this one of the stupid ones.

嗯，我只是教入门的新闻写作和新闻报道。你知道，我刚完成一次全球讲座巡讲，飞行了57,000英里，这比绕地球两圈还多。我去了五个大洲。我对调查记者，尤其是所有这些地方的年轻记者们说，如果某个主题重要到值得你去报道，而已经有人把它写下来了，那就一定有记录。明白吗？

Well, my I was just teaching introductory news writing and news reporting. You know, I just came back from a world lecture tour, 57,000 air miles, so that's more than twice around the planet. It went to five continents. And what I was telling investigative reporters and all young ones, especially in all these places is, if it's important enough to write about somebody who already wrote it down, there's a record. You know?

此刻，某处有一架正在飞行的飞机，可能是小型飞机，也可能是客机，它可能会因为已经发生的机械故障而坠毁。但在事故发生之前你是无法报道它的。不要去追踪那些需要五年才能完成的新闻，因为你放弃了去做许多其他可以更快完成的报道的机会。但如果你没有深入理解事物，那么再大的新闻就在你眼前你也认不出来。

Right now, there is a plane somewhere flying. It could be a little plane or a jetliner that will crash because of a mechanical failure that's already underway. You can't write about it till after it happens. Don't pursue things that will take five years because you're giving up the opportunity to do lots of other stories that you can do more quickly. But if you don't understand things deeply, there will be big stories right in front of you.

最棒的新闻故事就在你的眼前。我总是建议他们读一读爱伦·坡的短篇小说《被窃的信》。故事里比利时的侦探们到处寻找那封信，把书架上的东西都拿下来找了，而那封信其实就在他们眼前，在书桌上，他们却从来没有注意到。它就隐藏在众目睽睽之下。

The very best stories are right in front of your eyes. And I urge them to all read Edgar Allan Poe's short story, The Purloined Letter, where these Belgian detectives go in and they're searching everywhere for this letter. And they're taking things off the shelves, and the letter's right there in front of them on the on the desk. Never cursed to them. It would be hidden in plain sight.

但你必须了解事物的运作原理。1973年，我获得了芝加哥大学的奖学金，参加了一门著名教育学教授保罗·彼得森的课程，他当时是从哈佛大学来访问的。课程内容是关于决策的。在第二或第三次课上，他点名让我发言，我站起来表示我读过相关的材料，并清楚地表达了这一点。然后我对他说：‘说实话，教授，我不太明白这个内容。’

But you have to know how things work. When I got a fellowship to the University of Chicago in 1973, I took a course from a famous education professor, Paul Peterson, who was visiting from Harvard. It was about decision making. He called on me in the second or third class and I got up and said indicated I'd read the work, made it clear. And then I said to him, I don't understand this professor to be honest with you.

我的意思是，我读了，我可以复述出来，但我真的不明白这里到底发生了什么。您能帮我理解一下它的机制吗？他回答说：‘约翰斯顿先生，我当然可以帮你理解这个机制。但之后你知道了什么呢？你只会知道这个特定交易的机制，而这本身毫无意义。也许你应该花时间去学习原则和理论，这样机制自然就会变得显而易见。’

I mean I I read it, I can regurgitate it but I really don't know what's going on here And can you help me with the mechanics of this? And he says, well, mister Johnston, I could certainly help you with the mechanics of this. And then what would you know? You would know the mechanics of this particular transaction which is of absolutely no significance whatsoever. Perhaps you could spend your time learning principle and theory, and then the mechanics will be obvious to you.

我当时24岁，有五个孩子，已经做了七年的记者。我突然觉得，天哪，从来没有人对我说过这样的话。哦，当然了。于是我花了大部分时间待在芝加哥——那时我一个人住，晚上就去图书馆，走进书架之间，随便从书架上拿书，爬上那些我称之为大象椅的大椅子，一直读到睡着为止，早上太阳照在我脸上时，我知道，这就是你必须做的事情。

I was 24 years old. I had five children and had been a reporter now for seven years, and I suddenly thought, oh my goodness. Nobody ever said that to me. Oh, of course. And I spent most of the rest of my time in Chicago because I was living alone going to the library in the evening, going into the shelves, just pulling things off the shelves, climbing into these big chairs they had that I called elephant chairs, and just reading till I fell asleep and the sun came up on my eyes in the morning and said that's what you have to do.

所以如果你要写关于警察的报道，警察是从哪里来的？他们不是凭空存在的。那个想法是从哪里来的？如果你要写关于法规的报道，法规又是从哪里来的？这些事物最初是从哪里开始的？它们背后的原则和理论又是什么？

So if you're gonna write about police, where do we get police? They don't exist in the ethers. Where did that idea come from? If you're gonna write regulation, where did that come from? Where did these things begin, and what's the underlying principle and theory?

这就是我周游世界时教给年轻记者们的内容。

That's what I teach all around the world to young journalists.

你当调查记者已经超过五十年了。所以我想先稍微谈谈你职业生涯中的一些亮点。在我们讨论你的新书之前，这些亮点曾促使《华盛顿月刊》将你列为美国最重要的记者之一。首先，你在《纽约时报》对税务问题的创新报道，促使克林顿总统和乔治·W·布什总统都做出了税收政策的调整，而国会评估这些调整的价值超过了2,500亿美元。

You have been an investigative reporter for over fifty years. So I wanna talk a little bit about some of the highlights of a career that prompted the Washington Monthly to cite you as one of America's most important journalists before we talk about your brand new book. So first, your innovative coverage of tax issues in The New York Times prompted tax policy changes by both presidents Clinton and George w Bush that congress valued at more than $250,000,000,000.

你最初十年是怎么做的。

How did you in the first ten years.

你是怎么做到的？

How did you do that?

好吧，在乔治·W·布什的案例中，他在上任之前不会向任何人展示他的税务计划，就像唐纳德·特朗普一样。他上任大约五天后，来自佐治亚州的米勒参议员提出了这项法案。我读了这份法案后，立刻冲到编辑办公室说，天哪，这项法案中取消了赠与税，这意味着超级富豪可以永远免税地持有财富。他说，这有什么影响呢？

Well, George w Bush's case, he would not show anybody his tax plan like Donald Trump until he took office. About five days after he took office, senator Miller from Georgia introduced the bill. I read the bill, ran ran to my editor's office, and said, oh my god. There's a super rich people can live tax free forever in this law because they repealed the gift tax. He said, what difference does that make?

我说，如果你取消了赠与税，你拿着比尔·盖茨级别的财富，把它送给玛莎姑姑。她只需要活一年零一天（出于法律技术原因），然后在她的遗嘱中再把它还给你。这样你现在拥有的股票，原本每股价值一美分，现在可以按市场价格，比如每股50美元来计价，而你出售这些股票时却无需缴税。他说，哇。他说，这确实是个问题。我说，什么问题？

I said, if you get rid the gift tax, you take your Bill Gates size fortune, you give it to aunt Martha. All she has to do is live a year and a day for technical reasons, and in her will, she gives it back to you, and you now get the stock that was valued at a penny a share, valued at whatever this price is, $50 a share, and you owe no taxes if you sell it. And he goes, wow. He said, well, there's a problem. And I said, what's the problem?

他说，不行，你不能这么说。我说，什么意思我不能这么说？我可以证明这一点。他说，不行，你必须引用别人的话才行。

He says, well, you can't say that. And I said, what do you mean I can't say that? I can prove this. He said, no. You gotta quote somebody.

他们不会喜欢这个的。你上不了头版。我知道当时有位律师可能已经发现了这一点，果然如此，我们引用了他的话，文章登上了头版。第二天，白宫发言人阿里·弗莱舍被问及此事。阿里和我以前认识，因为他曾在国会工作过。他说，凡是有大卫写的税务相关文章，我们都会认真对待。

They're not gonna want this. You're not gonna get on the front page. So I knew the lawyer who probably had figured this out, lo and behold, he had, and we quoted him and ran on the front page. And the next day that day, Ari Fleischer, the White House spokesman, was asked about this, and Ari started off saying, because we knew each other from when he worked for in congress. And he said, well, anything David writes about taxes, we're going to treat with deep respect.

这当然不是我们的意图。我们目前还不清楚它的具体含义，但我们会调查清楚。然后，三个月后，他们悄悄地从法案中删除了这一条款。你是怎么了解

That certainly isn't our intention. We're not aware of what the meaning of this is for sure, but we will look into it. And then very quietly, three months later, they dropped that provision from the bill. How did you learn

这么多关于税收和税法的知识的？

as much as you know about taxes and tax law?

嗯，我花了很多时间读书，学习这些东西，阅读法律条文，学习如何解读它们，还花时间与顶尖的税务专家交流。作为一名记者，如果你认真对待这份工作，你会拥有一个有趣的生活；但如果你非常认真地对待它，那你就像是一个永远的研究生，唯一的区别是，公众会阅读你的文章。

Well, I spent a great deal of time reading books, you know, learning these things, reading statutes, learning how to read them, spending time with top tax people. The great thing about being a journalist, if you treat it seriously you can have a fun life in journalism, but if you treat it very seriously, is you're a perpetual graduate student, and the only difference is the public reads your papers.

你因深入且富有开创性的报道，揭露了美国税法中的漏洞与不公，从而赢得了2001年的普利策突发新闻报道奖，这些报道在推动税法改革方面起到了关键作用。你曾描述过公司缴税越来越少，而个人税负却越来越重的现象。你引发了哪些改变？

You won the 2,001 Pulitzer Prize for beat reporting for your penetrating and enterprising reporting that exposed loopholes and inequities in The US tax code, which was instrumental in bringing about reforms. You described how corporations were paying less in taxes even as individuals were paying more. What kind of changes did you provoke?

首先，它阻止了一些拟议政策的实施。其次，它促使政府开始认真打击这些避税手段。政府其实早就知道这些问题，也采取了一些措施。但我让许多著名的税务专家公开表示，这种做法是腐败的、错误的、不诚实的，这给联邦政府施加了巨大的压力，迫使他们进行整顿。

Well, it prevented some proposed policies from going into place first and foremost. And then secondly, it prompted the government to start seriously acting on these tax shelters. They were aware of them. There was some action being taken. I got lots of prominent tax people to say on the record, this is corrupt, this is wrong, it's dishonest, and it really pressured the federal government to crack down.

此外，它还改变了公众的理解。从根本上说，我想要做的是让公众不再说‘哦，是税收，我不想了解’，而是真正理解税收的基本原则，那些古老的税收原则。如果你掌握了这些原则，你就能更好地理解税收争论。我还在2002年写了一篇报道，指出安然公司当时拥有800多家离岸子公司。

And it also changed the public's understanding. Mean, fundamentally, what I wanted to do was get the public to instead of saying, oh, tax, I don't want to about that. To have just a fundamental understanding of the principles, the ancient principles that go into tax. And if you just get those, then you can look at the tax debate and have sort of a better understanding. I also showed in 02/2002, I wrote a story pointing out that Enron had we said 800 and some offshore subsidiaries.

后来发现他们重复列出了其中一些子公司，最终发现数量略低于700家。安然公司将原本在美国赚取的利润转移到海外，并将这些利润转化为联邦政府提供的无息贷款。想想看，这就相当于你下一份工资中的税款，政府允许你保留这笔钱并进行投资。

It turned out they had double listed some. So in the end, it turned out there were seven a little under 700. And that Enron was taking profits earned in The US, siphoning them out of The US, and converting profits into interest free loans from the federal government. I mean, think about that. Imagine the taxes taken out of your next paycheck.

如果每年都能这样操作，持续三、四十年，把这笔钱投资，然后在不考虑通货膨胀等因素的情况下再还给政府，那你就会变得非常富有。

If the government said you can keep that money and invest it, it has just loaned you your taxes at zero interest. And if you could do that for every year for thirty or forty years, invest that money, then pay the government the taxes with no adjustment for inflation or anything else, you'd be really rich.

这些想法是谁想出来的？

Who comes up with these kinds of ideas?

是那些为富人服务的律师和会计师，他们收取巨额费用，帮助富人逃避纳税。美国有两个截然不同且不平等的税收体系：一个是针对大多数美国人，也就是工薪阶层、靠劳动收入生活的人；另一个是为非常富有的人设计的。我们对工薪阶层并不信任。

Lawyers and accountants who get paid huge fees by rich people so they don't have to pay taxes. America has two tax systems separate and unequal. One is for most Americans, wage earners, people with labor income. And the other is for very wealthy people. Wage earners, we don't trust.

你的工资在发放之前，税款就已经被扣除了。但如果你像唐纳德·特朗普一样自己经营企业，你就可以告诉政府你声称的利润是多少。除非政府对你进行审计，而我们进行的审计非常少，否则政府就会接受你申报的内容。这简直太荒唐了。

You don't get your paycheck until the taxes are withheld first. But if you own your own business like Donald Trump, you tell the government what you say were your profits. And unless they audit you, and we do very few audits, the government accepts what you said. That's nutty.

所以我们应该这样理解：政府不信任工薪阶层，却信任企业主。

We should be So the the government doesn't trust the wage earner. They trust the business owner.

没错。

Right.

而企业主通常就是那个负责做复杂会计工作的人。

And the business owner is generally the one that's doing the fancy accounting.

没错。而且在很多情况下，他们干脆直接作弊。我的上一本书《特朗普的发迹》中提到过，唐纳德·特朗普曾涉及两起民事税务欺诈审判，结果他都输了。他没有任何证据来支持自己的行为。

That's right. And and in many cases, just flat out cheating. Mean, Donald Trump, as I reported in my last book, the making of Donald Trump, there were two civil tax trials for him for tax fraud. And in both cases, he lost. He had no evidence to support what he did.

他完全没有证据。此外，还有确凿的证据显示存在刑事税务欺诈行为。当有关的纳税申报表出示给唐纳德·特朗普的税务律师和为他工作多年的会计师时，他们表示从未见过。唯一能找到的只是一份复印件。显然，这份复印件是提交给了纽约市。杰克·米特尼克作证说，那是我的签名，但我本人和我的公司都没有准备这份纳税申报表。

None. And furthermore, there was clear evidence of criminal tax fraud when the tax return at issue was shown to Donald Trump's tax lawyer and accountant who worked for him for years. The only copy anybody had was the photocopy. Apparently, a photocopy was submitted to the city it was the city of New York. And Jack Mitnick testified, that's my signature, but neither I nor my firm prepared that tax return.

这几乎就是你能得到的关于刑事税务欺诈最有力的证据了。

That's about as good of evidence of criminal tax fraud as you were ever going to get.

那他为什么没有因此受到惩罚？

And why wasn't he punishing for it?

因为绝大多数罪犯从未被起诉。

Because the vast majority of criminals never are prosecuted.

大家好，我是詹姆斯，我是福哈德。

Hello, guys. I'm James. And I'm Fuhad.

我们是Shits and Geeks播客。

And we're Shits and Geeks podcast.

本节目由Boost Mobile冠名播出，提供可靠的全国网络覆盖，并享有30天无条件退款保证。如果您不满意我们的服务，可以随时退款，无需任何解释。

And this episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile, offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a thirty day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back. No questions asked.

兄弟，你懂的。很明显，我用的是一个运营商的服务，你用的是另一个运营商的服务。有时候我这边信号很好，你那边却信号很差。

Brother, you know how it goes. Obviously, I'm on one provider. You're on another provider. Sometimes I have good signal. You have bad signal.

你的信号不好，我的信号很好。我就会感到焦虑，我在想，我是不是应该换一个？值得换吗？换了会更好吗？

You have bad signal. I have good signal. And I get stressed, and I think, shall I change? Is it worth changing? Is it gonna make it better?

我不知道，我已经用了很久这家运营商了。

I don't know. I've been with my provider for a long time.

我也是。

Same.

这让人焦虑，而且我不想麻烦。朋友们，现在有转机了。Boost Mobile 提供与你目前所用运营商相同的全国覆盖范围和网络速度，但价格却低得多。

It's anxiety inducing, and I don't want the hassle. Well, guys and girls, here's the twist. Boost Mobile gives you the same nationwide coverage and network speeds that you're already used to for way less money.

没错。Boost Mobile 提供不限量套餐，每月仅需 25 美元起。没有涨价，没有合约，无需多设备捆绑，只有稳定的信号覆盖和真正的性价比。

That's right. Boost Mobile gives you unlimited plans starting at just $25 a No price hikes, no contracts, no multiline faff, just solid coverage and proper value.

如果你坐在那里心想，兄弟，这听起来太好了，不像是真的，别担心。我们提供 30 天无理由退款保证。你可以免费试用，如果不喜欢，可以退还你的服务费用。转用 Boost Mobile 有很多好处。通过与漫游合作伙伴的合作，Boost Mobile 覆盖了全美 99% 的人口区域。

And if you're sitting there thinking, bro, this sounds too good to be true, don't worry. You've got a thirty day money back guarantee. Try it risk free, and if you don't love it, you get your service fees back. There are plenty of benefits when you switch to Boost Mobile. Together with their roaming partners, Boost Mobile covers 99% of The US population.

5G 网络速度并非在所有地区都可用。

Five g speeds not available in all areas.

无论你是在刷手机、看视频，还是沉浸在群聊中，Boost Mobile 都能为你提供稳定连接。

So whether you're scrolling, streaming, or just lost in a group chat, you're covered.

总之，Boost Mobile 让你自由省钱而不牺牲信号质量，而且没有任何绑定。

Bottom line, Boost Mobile gives you the freedom to save money without sacrificing coverage, and no one's locking you into anything.

访问最近的 Boost Mobile 门店，或在线访问 boostmobile.com 找到他们。

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online at boostmobile.com.

那就是boostmobile.com。可靠的服务，合适的覆盖范围，而且毫无压力。

That's boostmobile.com. Reliable service, proper coverage, and no stress.

嘿，大家好。我是Giggly Squad的Hannah。你们知道我热爱美妆，所以我选择去Sephora。这不仅仅是购物，更是一种时尚体验。

Hey, guys. It's Hannah from Giggly Squad. You know I love beauty, and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping. It's like a glam experience.

那里的美妆顾问真正懂得美妆，不像那些大型百货商店，他们给了我所有我需要的建议。我喜欢和那些只能在Sephora买到的产品一起购物，比如我最新喜爱的Kiyali香水，我最爱的House Labs粉底色号，还有我终于补货的Laneige唇膜，这一切都得益于真正的专家。哦，还有如果你还没试过Day品牌的洗发水，一定要去试试，它会彻底改变你的体验。Sephora不仅仅是一家商店。

The beauty advisors actually get beauty unlike those big box stores and they give me all the advice I need. And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kiyali fragrance, my perfect shade of House Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask, all with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried day shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store.

它是美妆的终极目的地。快去吧，之后你会感谢我的。

It's the beauty destination. Go. You'll thank me later.

我们为什么选择伦敦商学院的MBA？

Why did we choose a London Business School MBA?

因为这里有绝佳的机会，可以连接全球顶尖企业，而这一切就发生在这座位于伦敦中心的城市。

Because of the amazing opportunities to connect the top global businesses right here in the heart of London.

因为我希望加入一个遍布156个国家的紧密社区，在这里，同学可以成为终身的朋友和值得信赖的顾问。

Because I want to join a tight knit community spanning 156 countries through which peers can become lifelong friends and trusted advisers.

因为我在寻找一所能够一直支持我的学校。

Because I was looking for a school that would be behind me

每一步都支持我。

every step of the

终身的合作伙伴。

way. Partners for life.

访问 london.edu/mba 了解更多信息。

Visit london.edu/mba to learn more.

俗话说得好，重要的不只是你说了什么，而是你如何表达。因为要真正产生影响，你必须树立榜样，必须身先士卒，必须灵活应对迎面而来的一切。而当你如此有魄力时，你驾驶的也应当是一辆同样坚定的座驾——揽胜运动版。

The old adage goes, it isn't what you say, it's how you say it. Because to truly make an impact, you need to set an example. You need to take the lead. You need to adapt to whatever comes your way. And when you're that driven, you drive an equally determined vehicle, the Range Rover Sport.

揽胜运动版融合了动力、优雅与卓越性能，专为产生影响力而生。它拥有动感驾驶体验、精致舒适的座舱，以及空气净化系统和主动降噪等创新科技，它就像你一样坚定不移。访问 rangerover.com/us/sport 探索揽胜运动版。

Blending power, poise, and performance, it was designed to make an impact. With a dynamic drive, refined comfort, and innovations like cabin air purification and active noise cancellation, the Range Rover Sport is built to be as uncompromising as you. Explore Range Rover Sport at rangerover.com/us/sport.

你第一次见到唐纳德·特朗普是在1988年，当时你是《费城问讯报》驻大西洋城记者站站长，而他正试图进入赌场行业。在一次最初的会面中，我读到你故意在关于骰子游戏craps的事情上说错了，目的是看看他会如何回应。你能讲讲这个故事吗？

You first met Donald Trump in 1988 when you were the Atlantic City bureau chief for the Philadelphia Inquirer, and he was trying to break into the casino business. And during one of the first meetings, I read that you deliberately said something wrong about the casino game craps Right. In order to see how he might respond. So can you tell us that story?

当我刚到大西洋城的时候，我见到了唐纳德·里德霍夫。我立刻想到，哇，这就是我们的P.T.巴纳姆。你知道的，来看斐济美人鱼和神奇的双头女人吧。当时每个人都知道巴纳姆是在兜售骗局，但他并没有伤害任何人。

Well, when I arrived in Atlantic City, I met Donald Ridhoff. And I immediately said, boy, this is our PT Barnum. You know, come see the Fiji mermaid and the incredible two headed woman. Now everybody knew back then PT Barnum was selling hoaxes. He didn't hurt anybody.

但唐纳德也是这样向你推销东西的。就在那之后，我知道他是大西洋城最重要的新闻人物，我开始着手了解他。他的竞争对手立刻对我说，唐纳德根本不懂赌场生意。我说，得了吧，这个人拥有两家赌场。

But Donald's like him in selling stuff to you. And right after that, knowing he was the most important story in Atlantic City, I started preparing to learn about him. Well, his competitors immediately said to me, Donald isn't anything about the casino business. And I'm like, come on. The man owns two casinos.

这不可能。我去问了政府监管人员，他们有一个委婉的说法：唐纳德不是个经营者。然后我又去问了唐纳德自己的人，他们一旦觉得可以信任我之后，就告诉我：唐纳德对这个行业一无所知。

That's not possible. I went to the government regulators. They had a polite phrase. Donald is not an operator. Then I went to Donald's own guys who would you know, as soon as they realized they could trust me, it was like, Donald doesn't know anything about this business.

他唯一知道的就是如何从公司里把钱抽走。在几位他身边人的默许下，我准备了四个问题，其中一个就是关于骰子游戏craps的。在我第一次与他长时间的正式访谈中，我故意抛出了一个错误的问题。唐纳德立刻把这些错误的观点融入到了他的回答中，那时我才意识到，他和你在电视上看到的那些广告没什么两样。

All he knows how to do is take money out of the business. So with the connivance of a couple of his guys, I came up with these four questions. One was about craps. And in my first long sit down interview with him, I just dropped into what I was a question, these falsehoods. Donald immediately incorporated the falsehoods into his answer, and that's when I realized that he was no different than the ads that you see on TV.

我们是加州灵媒。你的男朋友真的对你忠诚吗？好吧，我们会告诉你答案。而他们真正做的，是倾听你提供的线索，告诉你你想听的内容。唐纳德也是如此。

We're California psychics. Is your boyfriend really loyal to you? Well, we'll tell you at California psychics. And what they really do is listen to clues from you about what you wanna hear. And that's what Donald did.

我的意思是，他在这一点上非常擅长，非常精通这种让你放下怀疑、接受他的推销说辞的技巧。他是怎么做到的呢？他做了所有骗子都会做的事：他弄清楚你想要的是什么，这样他就可以掏空你的口袋，或者像最近的例子那样，让你投他一票。

I mean, he's he's masterful at this. He's he's really good at this stuff of getting you to suspend your skepticism and buy his sales story. How? Well, he does what all con artists do. He figures out what it is you want so that he can pick your pocket or get you to vote for him in the most recent example.

世界上到处都是这样的人。对我幸运的是，因为我曾报道洛杉矶警察局三年，报道过那里的警察局长达里尔·盖茨，他在很多方面都像唐纳德。他不是为了钱，而是极度渴望权力。他会编造一些事情。比如，当我首次报道他指派警员与女性发生关系的事情时，我就在想，这有什么问题吗？

And the world's full of people like that. And luckily for me, because I had covered the LA police department for three years, I had covered Daryl Gates, the police chief there, who in many ways was like Donald. He wasn't money motivated, but he was power mad. He would make things up. He you know, when when I broke the story about him assigning officers to sleep with women, you know, it's like, what's wrong with this?

我的意思是，在这类事情上，我才是怪物，而不是他。唐纳德的情况也一样。所以某种程度上，他让我为应对唐纳德做好了准备。而唐纳德习惯于随便说点什么，第二天就能在报纸上看到。比如那个著名的《纽约邮报》标题：‘最佳性爱经历’。

I mean, it's I'm the monster, not him for this sort of stuff. Same thing with Donald. So he sort of helped prepare me for that. And Donald was used to just saying things and getting them planted in the newspaper. The famous New York Post headline, best sex ever.

多年后，玛拉·马普尔斯出现在电视剧《设计女人》中，她扮演自己，在剧集结尾突然面对镜头说：‘我从没说过这种话。’这后来也得到了斯托米·丹尼尔斯最近在采访中的证实。所以唐纳德并不习惯有记者不轻信他的胡言乱语。在我之前，只有韦恩·巴雷特这么做过，我的新书就是献给他的。韦恩·巴雷特是《村声》的记者，一份左翼报纸，但他却拥有最棒的执法部门消息来源：联邦调查局特工、警察、假释官员，他们都完全信任他，因为他的工作非常扎实。唐纳德对我们两人以及《华尔街日报》的一个记者展开了报复，他骗那个记者做了一件事，结果毁掉了他的职业生涯。

Years later, Marla Maples appears on Designing Women, and she's playing herself, and she turns at the end of the episode and looks into the camera and says, I never said that, which apparently Stormy Daniels in her recent interview would confirm. So Donald was not used to journalists not just buying his nonsense. The only reporter before me who had done this was Wayne Barrett to whom my new book is dedicated. Wayne Barrett was a reporter at the Village Voice, a lefty paper, and yet he had the most fantastic law enforcement sources, FBI agents, cops, parole people who all totally trusted him because of the solidness of his work. And Donald was on the warpath against the two of us and a guy at the Wall Street Journal whom he tricked into doing something that basically ended his career.

那件事其实无关紧要，不该发生在他身上。唐纳德曾试图陷害我。是的，唐纳德不断尝试，你知道的，他一直想贿赂我。他曾给韦恩·巴雷特提供一套特朗普大厦的免费公寓，只要他不再报道这些事。

It was non con inconsequential, shouldn't happen to him. Donald tried to trap me. Yeah. Well, Donald kept trying to you know, he kept offering me things. He'd offered Wayne Barrett a free apartment in Trump Tower if he'd go away.

所以到了我这里，他足够聪明，不会直接给我这种东西，但你知道，他想让你坐他的私人飞机，或者给你点别的什么。有一次我和他共进午餐时，我上中学的儿子也来了。唐纳德中途起身离开了一下。他离开时，安德鲁走过去和他合影。他们俩一起的照片就在我脸书页面上。

So he was, by then, smart enough not to know to offer me something like that, but, you know, they wanna go on his jet, this or that. So one day when I had lunch with him, my middle son who was a teenage boy came. And Donald had to get up and leave. And while he was gone, Andrew walked up to him. There's a picture of the two of them together.

第二天，几张照片，其中一张还装了相框，被人用快递送到我家，上面唐纳德写着：‘安迪，你有个了不起的爸爸，唐纳德·特朗普。’我立刻意识到他会利用这张照片。他会说，我对他进行了敲诈——如果他不和我儿子合影，并写下我让他写的话，我就会写关于他的负面报道。

It's on my Facebook page. And the next day, a couple copies of the picture, one of them framed, arrives at my home by messenger, and Donald's written on it, you know, Andy, you have a great dad, Donald Trump. And I immediately realized he would use this. He would go and say, well, I blackmailed him. If he didn't take this picture with my son and write what I told him to write, he would write I would write negative stories about him.

所以我把这件事告诉了《费城问讯报》的编辑们。我们一致同意买下这张照片。我们去了他的赌场，提出报价，比所有人都认为它值的钱还高。其实也没多高，20美元，我想我们最后出价150到175美元，大家都说这照片值150美元左右，所以我们写了175美元的支票。

So I told the editors of Philadelphia Inquirer about this. We agreed that we would pay for the picture. We went to the casino, and we offered, you know, and it was a higher price than everybody said it was worth. Not much. 20 and I think we a 100 everybody said a $150, so we wrote $1.75.

他们不肯收支票，把它退了回来。于是我找了一家唐纳德声称自己有联系的慈善机构，以他的名义捐了175美元，并附上一张便条。但我从唐纳德那里夺走了利用这张照片的机会。我从不允许他做任何超出范围的事情，我唯一接受来自他人的东西，就是一杯咖啡、一杯水，或者如果咖啡配了饼干，那就吃一块。这些只是简单的礼节而已。

They wouldn't take the check. They mailed it back to us. So I found a charity Donald claimed to have been connected to, and I sent a $150 $175 contribution in his name and an inexpensive cash. But I took away from Donald the opportunity to do that, and I never allowed him to do anything more than you know, I the only things I'll take from people are a cup of coffee, a glass of water, a cookie if it comes with a coffee. These are gratuit these are just, you know, simple courtesies.

任何曾经以任何方式对唐纳德表现出脆弱的人，最终都会后悔。

Everybody who's ever made themselves vulnerable to Donald in any way has come to rue it.

去年他曾在你家里打电话骂你，因为你当时在为一篇文章向白宫提交了一些问题

He called you at your home last year to yell at you about the questions you submitted to the White House while working on an article

对他来说是白宫。那就是他的竞选团队。

White House to him. That's camp the campaign.

哦，是在竞选期间吗？

Oh, during the campaign?

这是在2016年。

This was in 2,016.

好的。所以他打电话是来骂你的吗？

Okay. So he called to yell at you?

是的，很多次了。他经常这样做。

Yeah. Many times. He's done that many times.

他说什么？他是怎么表现的？

What does he say? How does he

嗯，这是一次典型的唐纳德·特朗普式电话，因为我经历过很多次。他多次在家里打电话给我。他一开始会说：‘嘿，伙计，你好啊。你想知道什么？反正你也知道我想说什么。’然后他就会变得带有威胁性。

Well, it was a stand it was a standard Donald Trump telephone call this kind because I've had many. He's called me at home many times. It's, hell, fellow, well met. What do you wanna know when he knows what you wanna know? And then he turns to menacing.

在这种情况下，他最后会挂你电话。那次他说：‘嘿，大卫，我们有一阵子没聊了。’我说是的。然后我说，‘很高兴你回我电话。’

And in this case and then he hangs up on you. And in this case, it was, so, hey, David. We haven't talked in a while. And I said, yeah. Well, I said, you know, I'm glad you called me back.

我说，我们来过一遍这些问题吧，因为我希望你能完整地表达你的观点。他说，你想知道什么？你挑一个吧。于是我挑了一个问题，他说：‘听着，如果你不按我喜欢的方式写，我就起诉你。’

Let let's go through these questions because I wanna make sure you get your full side of this told. And, he says, what do you wanna know about? You know, pick one. So I picked one of them, and he goes, listen. If you don't write it the way I like it, I'm gonna sue you.

从1989年以来，他一直在威胁要起诉我。

He's been threatening to sue me since 1989.

而且他至今从未做到过。

And he has yet never to do it.

是的，他永远不会去做。我是说，我希望他会。那样我就可以有权让他在宣誓后接受质询。这是对唐纳德·特朗普的挑战。

No. And he's never going to. I mean, I wish he would. I would have the right to question him under oath. This is a challenge to Donald Trump.

如果唐纳德·特朗普有胆量坐下来，和我一起面对电视摄像机，一小时之内他不能离开，我向你保证，在那一个小时结束时，每个美国人都会明白他到底是个什么样的人。他的脸上会显露出道林·格雷画像中的嘴脸。不管怎样，我说过，唐纳德，你是一个公众人物。在美国，这意味着他必须证明我明知我写的是谎言却仍然故意那样做。而这一点，没有人能证明。

If Donald Trump had the guts to sit down with me in front of a television camera where he can't walk away for one hour, I promise you at the end of that hour, every American would understand who he is. The portrait of Dorian Gray would come right onto his face. Anyway, he I said, Donald, you're a public figure. In America, that means that he would have to prove that I knew what I wrote was a lie, and I did it anyway. There's no chance anybody's ever gonna prove that.

然后我说，所以唐纳德，你是个公众人物。他说，我知道我是个公众人物。但我还是要起诉你。然后他就挂了电话。唐纳德曾去找过《国民问询报》和《纽约时报》的编辑，试图让我被解雇，但完全没成功。

And I said, so Donald, you're a public figure. He says, I know I'm a public figure. I'm gonna sue you anyway. Click. Now Donald had gone to the editors of the enquirer and the New York Times to try and get me fired with no success of any kind.

我知道他曾通过中间人联系过多家新闻机构，并发出各种威胁。这也是在竞选期间，没有人报道有关他与一位国际毒贩深度牵连并为其提供便利的大量公开证据的原因之一，当时唐纳德还亲自写了一封信。这些事实没有任何争议。问题是，作为一个可能失去赌场执照的赌场老板，你为什么会去为一个大毒贩提供帮助并与他做生意？一个显而易见的问题是，你们俩是不是一起做生意？

I know that he went to various news organizations and made through intermediaries all sorts of threats. It's one of the reasons that during the campaign, nobody reported on the robust public record about his deep entanglement and favors for this international drug trafficker where the Donald wrote a letter. There's mean, none of this is in dispute, the facts. And, you know, his question would be, why would as a casino owner where you could lose your casino license, would you be doing favors for a major drug trafficker and doing business with him? The obvious question to ask is, well, were you two in business together?

因为如果他们真的在做生意，那么他所做的一切就完全说得通了。但没有人报道这件事。因此，当美国民众投票时，他们根本不知道唐纳德·特朗普到底是谁。他没有被彻底调查过。我可以告诉你一些名字，虽然现在记不太清，但我能很快帮你查到，比如巴拉克·奥巴马小时候在印尼幼儿园的玩伴，在夏威夷上高中时一起抽大麻的男孩，以及他在哥伦比亚大学读书时约会过的部分女性。

Because if they were, everything he did makes perfect sense. But nobody reported this. So when Americans voted, they had no idea who Donald Trump was. He wasn't scrubbed. I can tell you the names from not off memory, but I could find for you quickly the names of Barack Obama's childhood playmates in Indonesia from kindergarten, the boys he smoked marijuana with in Hawaii in high school, and some of the women he dated when he went to Columbia University.

但这类事情在唐纳德·特朗普身上却没有做过，这是因为他的竞选活动太奇怪、太出人意料了。我打个比方，我们都喜欢看热闹，都会停下来想看看高速公路另一边发生了什么车祸。唐纳德·特朗普就是那辆撞毁的车，旁边还有跳舞的姑娘、烟火和军乐队。

None of that kind of stuff was done with Donald Trump, and it's because his campaign was so bizarre and unlikely. I mean, what I've compared it to is, you know, we all rubberneck. We all stopped. What is that accident on the other side of the freeway? Well, Donald Trump is that traffic wreck with dancing girls, fireworks, and a marching band.

人们都在惊叹，他下一步会做什么？当特朗普停止直播时，福克斯和哥伦比亚广播公司都发现观众纷纷转台。所以他们报道特朗普是因为这能带来商业利益。但这无法解释报纸媒体完全失败，彻底忽略了对候选人进行所谓的背景调查。

And people were like, wow. What's he gonna do next? And and literally, when Trump went off the air, Fox and CBS said people click the dial away. So they covered this because it was good for business. That doesn't explain the newspapers failing, utterly failing to what's called scrub the candidate.

顺便说一句，唐纳德·特朗普的《交易的艺术》的影子写手托尼·施瓦茨曾说过，如果没人关注他，唐纳德会是个非常不快乐的人。

Well, Tony Schwartz, the ghostwriter of Trump's the art of the deal, said that Trump would be a very unhappy man if no one paid attention to him.

是的，唐纳德确实是个不快乐的人。我的意思是，你从没见过唐纳德·特朗普笑。他无法接受别人拿他开玩笑。我一直对他有点同情。他就像一个71岁的男人，心理却还停留在13岁青春期的阶段，他的生活中没有快乐和满足感。

Well, Donald, by the way, is an unhappy man. I mean, Donald Trump is a man who you don't see him laugh. He can't take a joke about himself. I've always felt kinda sorry for him. I mean, he he's a he's a 71 year old man trapped in the year of puberty when he was 13 emotionally, and there's no joy and contentment in his life.

唐纳德极度渴望公众的崇拜。他声称自己比我们其他人都优越。他的儿子们也说过，特朗普家族认为他们在基因上具有优越性。他们相信他们所谓的赛马繁育遗传理论。你应该注意到，他的医生刚刚说，嗯，你知道，他超重等等，但他的基因真的很优越。

Donald is desperately in need of public adoration. He has said he is superior to the rest of us. His sons have said that Trumps believe they're genetically superior. They believe in what they call the horse race breeding theory of genetics. You notice his doctor just said, well, you know, he overweight and whatnot, but his genetics, they're really superior.

谈谈那些神秘匿名寄到你家的特朗普税表文件。首先，为什么是你？

Talk about the anonymous mysterious arrival of the pages of Trump's tax returns that arrived at your house last year. First of all, why you?

如果你像我一样认为这些税表是唐纳德·特朗普本人或他指使别人寄出的，那么这件事就完全说得通。

If you believe as I do that Donald Trump had this sent or sent by somebody, This return makes perfect sense.

所以你是说这些东西是你寄给我的吗？不，我的意思是，它……

So you think that it was sent to you by No. I mean, it

它是通过美国邮政寄来的。我已经把附信的复印件交给了新闻机构，他们可以查看。信上写着“客户副本”。所以它不是来自某个政府档案。而唐纳德有长期自我泄露材料的历史。比如2016年《纽约邮报》刊登了我称之为低俗色情的梅拉尼娅照片。

came it came in The US mail. I've given the news organizations the cover letter so they can see it, and it says client copy. So it didn't come from, you know, a government file somewhere. And Donald has a long history of leaking material on himself. When the New York Post in the 2016 published the what I call, sleazy porn pictures of Melania.

这些照片当然不是艺术作品。我邀请你去看看《纽约邮报》上的那些照片。这根本不是高雅艺术。我本身并不反对裸体，但这些就是色情。唐纳德的发言人对此也没有任何异议。

They certainly are not art. I invite you to go to New York Post and look at them. This is not high art. I don't have any problem with nudity at all, but this was just porn. Donald's spokesman had no complaint.

这说明，要么是唐纳德自己泄露了这些照片，要么是他授意别人发布的。所以当我收到这份税表时，我正站在水道对面用手机拍摄马阿拉歌的照片。我的手机震动了一下，我女儿说，紧急消息，你得赶紧看一下你的电子邮件。我当时心里就想到两个问题。

And that that tells me is Donald leaked the pictures or he told someone to go ahead and put the pictures out there. So when I got the return, I was literally shooting a picture with my cell phone of Mar a Lago from across the waterway. My phone buzzed, and my daughter said, urgent. You know, you gotta look at your email. And I think to myself two things.

第一，这是真的吗？还有别人收到吗？而这份税表显示的是巨额收入，每周将近300万美元，而纳税金额高达3600万美元，大约是他收入的22%到23%。然而，其中大部分税款来自一种被称为替代性最低税（AMT）的备用税收制度。如果去掉AMT，他的税率还不到百分之三点五。这个数字很重要，因为那一年报税的美国人中收入最低的一半人，他们的税率超过3.5%，只是略高一点。

Is this real, and does anybody else have it? And what that return showed was an enormous income, almost $3,000,000 a week, and a tax bill of 36,000,000, which is about 22 about 23% of his income. However, it included most of the tax being from a backup tax system called the AMT. Take away the AMT and his tax rate was less than three and a half percent. That's an important number because the the poorest half of Americans who file tax returns, their tax rate that year was more than 3.5%, just a little above it.

他们的平均收入是每周300美元。唐纳德的收入是每周将近300万美元。所以他希望被更轻地征税。他呼吁取消AMT制度。所以他的政策立场是：我要比美国最穷的一半人缴更少的税。

Their average income was $300 a week. Donald's income was almost $3,000,000 a week. So he wanted to be taxed less lightly. He called for eliminating the AMT. So his policy was, I wanna be taxed more lightly than the poorest half of Americans.

AMT就是替代性最低税，对吧？

And the AMT is alternative minimum tax. Is

对吧？替代性最低税（AMT）。没错。适用于他的具体部分叫做可退还AMT。所以基本上，在接下来的一年或者两三年内，他可以退回他所缴纳税款的85%。

that right? Alternative minimum tax. Right. And the particular portion that applied to him is called the refundable AMT. So, essentially, in the next year or the next two or three years, he would get back 85% of the taxes that he paid.

但是唐纳德，我想我觉得没人会知道这一点。当我打电话或发邮件给白宫的时候，肖恩·斯派塞，我立刻就提到了AMT。而唐纳德对此反应激烈，这表明他认为我会写一篇报道说，嘿，你赚了很多钱，也交了很多税。他不知道我有多了解税务，我会指出这一点。这有点令人惊讶，因为我曾经试图给唐纳德一些税务建议，但他根本听不懂，因为他对任何事情都一无所知，尤其是税务，尽管他声称自己是世界上最伟大的税务专家。

But Donald, I don't think I think that anybody would know that. When I called the White House or emailed the White House, Sean Spicer, I immediately focused on the AMT. And if Donald Donald's reaction to that where he went ballistic tells me that he thought he was gonna get, you know, me to write a story about, hey. You made a lot of money and you paid a lot of taxes, and he didn't know how well I knew taxes that I would point this out. And that's a little surprising given that I tried to give once Donald tax advice and he couldn't follow it because he doesn't know anything about anything, but especially not taxes, even though he claims to be the world's greatest expert on taxes.

是什么让你决定把这个故事告诉瑞秋·马诺？

What made you decide to give the story to Rachel Manno?

嗯，我没有这么做。事情不是这样的。我们最初在dcreport.org上发表了这篇报道，然后我成了业内所谓的‘目标’。你想采访某人，就得去‘拿下’这个采访。我和我的朋友们，也就是做DC Report的人，基本上都是志愿者，只有几个人参与。

Well, I didn't. That's, that's not what happened. We published it at dcreport.org, and then I became what's known in the trade as the get. You wanna get the interview with somebody. And my friends and I who do DC report were basically volunteers as a few people

你不拿薪水

You don't take a salary

是的，我不拿薪水。我自己还投了钱进去。我们讨论过把这个报道发到哪里去，我们一致认为如果我交给《纽约时报》，整个过程会被他们的编辑流程拖上好几天，结果别人就会抢先报道。所以我们必须选择电视媒体。我想去找劳伦斯·奥唐奈，因为他从不涉及税务话题，或者去CNN，瑞秋当然也是一个选择。但是一致决定是，我必须去找瑞秋。

for that. I put money into it. And we discussed where to take it and we agreed that if I went to the Times, it would all be caught up in the Times editing process and take days and somebody would break the story, that we had to go to TV. I wanted to go to Lawrence O'Donnell because he does no taxes, or to CNN, and Rachel was certainly a possibility. And and unanimously, you know, the the guys in my team said, you gotta go to Rachel.

她有观众基础等等。后来瑞秋因为她的17分钟开场独白受到批评。我每晚都看她的节目，她每晚都会做一段17分钟的开场独白。然后有些人就说，这没什么新闻价值。

She has the audience and whatnot. And then Rachel was criticized, you know, for her seventeen minute opening up monologue. Watch her every night. She does a seventeen minute monologue every night. And then there were these people said, there's nothing there.

我只能告诉你，任何说这没有新闻价值的记者，他们根本不知道自己在写什么。有很多记者会准确地引用别人的话，但他们根本不知道自己在写什么。这些记者没有联系过我。来自德国、日本、西班牙和世界各地的记者都联系过我，但美国的记者没有。

All I can tell you is any journalist who said there's nothing there, they don't know what they're writing about. And there are lots of journalists who accurately quote people but have no idea what they're writing about. And these journalists didn't call me. Journalists from Germany and Japan and Spain and all over the world called me. American journalists did not.

为什么？这在我写《特朗普的发家史》时也发生过。当接受采访的时候，这周我已经接受了十几位外国记者的采访，他们通常真的读过这本书，提出的问题也很有水平，虽然不总是这样，但大多数时候是这样。而美国的记者，他们的问题通常是，哦，我没时间读你的书，但我听说你不喜欢特朗普。

Why? Well, this also happened when I did the making of Donald Trump. When I get interviewed, and I've done a dozen interviews this week with foreign journalists, you know, they've actually read the book. They ask smart questions generally, not always, but generally. American journalists, the questions like, well, I didn't have any time to read your book, but I understand, you know, you don't like Trump.

这简直令人震惊。我们允许新闻标准下降到了这种程度，原因就是资金的流失。曾经，《洛杉矶时报》的全国记者坐的都是头等舱。而现在，你能拿到一张打折的经济舱机票去报道新闻就已经算幸运了。

It's just it's appalling. The standards that we've allowed to sink, and it's because the money's gone. I mean, there was a time when, you know, at the LA Times, national correspondents flew first class. You know, you'd be lucky today to get a coach ticket at a discount to go somewhere.

那么，我们再深入谈谈，情况甚至比你想象的还要糟糕。这与你在上一本书《特朗普的诞生》以及迈克尔·沃尔夫的《烈火与雷霆》中讲述的故事是截然不同的另一面。这本书探讨的是特朗普本人以及他的盟友对他的看法，并且新书还解释了本届政府正在如何损害国家的治理，损害我们的收入、健康和安全。不过我想谈谈特朗普的工作作风，因为你写到特朗普上任前202天的情况。

Well, let's talk a little bit more about it's even worse than you think. It is the other side of the story told in your previous book, the making of Donald Trump, and the Michael Wolff book, Fire and Fury. Yeah. It is instead exploring who Trump is and what his allies say about him, and the new book explains what the administration is doing to damage the government, our income, health, and safety. But I wanna talk about Trump's work ethic because you write in Trump's first two hundred and two days in office.

他在马阿拉歌庄园、他在新泽西的高尔夫球场，或者特朗普大厦度过了65天。差不多每三天就有一天在这些地方。

He spent sixty five days at Mar A Lago, his New Jersey golf course, or Trump Tower. That's almost one day in three.

顺便说一句，这种情况一直持续到现在，差不多每三天就有一天在这些地方。

And that's continued, by the way. One in three.

因此，纳税人是在为这一切买单。为什么国会或参议院对此没有更多的愤怒呢？

So the taxpayers are footing the bill for this. Why isn't there more outrage about this in congress or in the senate?

嗯，唐纳德从来就不是那种你能称作勤奋工作的人。我们现在知道，他每天基本上工作不到五个小时，中间还要吃午饭，并且花好几个小时看电视，看人们都在说他什么。我在书中所描述的那些人，也就是那90%有真实不满情绪的底层民众，他们仍然相信他是能拯救他们的人。

Well, Donald has never been a guy you'd call a hard worker, and we now know he he puts in essentially a five hour a day minus lunch and spends hours and hours watching on television to see what people are saying about him. The people who I championed in my books, the bottom 90% who have real grievances, he's the person they still believe is going to save them.

他们为什么？为什么是大卫？

They Why? Why David?

因为他们并不真正明白，让高盛的人掌权、通过一项实质上是为高盛客户量身定制的减税法案、取消工作场所安全检查等措施并不符合他们的利益。他们并不密切关注政治。他们并不笨。你去蓝领酒吧坐下来，看棒球或橄榄球比赛中一个糟糕的判罚，听听人们对此的分析，天哪，这些人分析这些东西非常到位。他们只是不关心政治，他们相信了唐纳德的骗局。而对那些已经被骗的人来说，要承认自己被骗了是非常困难的。

Because they don't understand that putting Goldman Sachs people in charge and passing a tax bill that's basically a shopping list for Goldman Sachs clients and removing job safety inspections and things are not in their interest because they don't follow politics closely. They're not dumb. Sit down in a blue collar bar and watch a messed up play in baseball or football and listen to the analysis of people, and my goodness, these people know how to analyze this stuff. They're just not connected to politics, and they bought Donald's con. And it's very hard for people who've been conned to admit they were taken.

你必须对自己说，我真傻，我被骗了，而不是对其他人说。

And you have to say, I was dumb. I got taken to yourself, not to the rest of

全世界。

the world.

是的，这其中包含着太多的羞耻感。

Yeah. So much shame in that.

是的。我的意思是，我们监狱里有些人，还有我写过的一些人，他们后来做了可怕的事情，只是因为他们不愿承认自己被绑架了。然后还有一部分人，我怀疑根据社会研究，大约有四分之一到三分之一的美国人憎恨民权运动。他们不想在飞机上坐在一个拉美裔旁边，他们不希望驾驶舱里有亚洲人，更别提让他们听命于一位黑人女上司了，那简直是禁忌。

Yeah. And I mean, we have people in prisons, people I've written about who just went on to do horrible things because they wouldn't admit that they got taken. And then there is this core of people, which I suspect is based on the social research between a quarter and a third of Americans who hate the civil rights movement. And, you know, they don't wanna sit next to a Latino on the plane. They don't want an Asian in the cockpit and God forbid, they don't wanna report to a black woman boss.

而唐纳德是他们的拥护者，是他们的英雄。令我惊讶的是，一些人甚至主动来找我，包括一些富裕且受过良好教育的人，他们对我说：‘不管你怎么写，你得承认唐纳德是对的。’我说：‘对什么？’他们说：‘就是你说的那些事情。’我说：‘不，我不这么认为。’

And Donald's their champion. He's their hero. And I've been surprised that some of the people who've come up to me including wealthy, educated people who've, you know, come up to me and they say, well, whatever you write, you know that Donald's right. And I go, well, write about what? And they go, you know, about about and I go, no.

我说，你知道的，就是那些人。

I go, you know, those people.

所以他揭露了这个国家的阴暗面？

So he's exposed the underbelly of this country?

他揭示了很多人根本无法接受民权运动的事实。他们根本不相信人生而平等。请记住，理查德·尼克松辞职的那一天，我报道过他的辞职，当时仍有29%的美国人支持尼克松。但唐纳德·特朗普永远不会辞职。他不像理查德·尼克松那样是个爱国者。

He's exposed that a lot of people just can't come to terms with the civil rights movement. They do not believe we are all created equal. And remember, the day that Richard Nixon resigned and I I covered his resignation, 29% of Americans still supported Nixon. Donald Trump will never resign. He is not a patriot like Richard Nixon.

尽管我并不喜欢理查德·尼克松的政策以及他做过的所有错事，但在最后，这个人还是为国家做了正确的事，他辞职了。而唐纳德·特朗普只关心唐纳德本人，他并不关心美国。如果他被免职，却没有受到刑事起诉、定罪并送进监狱，他会用余生在全国各地巡回，煽动暴力和革命，攻击政府。

I mean much as I don't like Richard Nixon's policies and all the things he did wrong, at the end of the day, the man did the right thing for the country. He resigned. Donald Trump is about Donald. He's not about America. If he is removed from office and not tried and convicted criminally and sent to prison, he will tour the country for the rest of his life, fomenting violence and revolution and attacking the government.

你可以从他的竞选活动中看出这一点。他曾在人群中指着某人说：‘揍那个人，我会替你支付法律费用。’他不是只做过一次，而是反复以各种方式多次这样做。

And the way you know that is, what did he do during the campaign? He pointed out people in the crowd and said, beat that person up. I'll pay your legal bills. And he didn't do it just once. He did it again and again and again in various different ways.

你提到唐纳德·特朗普的总统任期有一个独特的因素，这使它不同于之前的44届政府。无论这些政府是伟大的、平庸的，还是腐败的。这也是你的一句话：无论伟大、平庸还是腐败，以往总统都有一个特朗普政府所缺乏的共同特质。这个特质是什么？

You state that there is a single factor that defines Donald Trump's presidency, making it unlike the 44 administrations before. Be they great, middling, or corrupt, and this is one of your lines. Be they great, middling, or corrupt, the president's past all shared a trait missing in the Trump presidency. What is that factor?

这个特质就是努力以某种方式让美国变得更好，留下一个国家变得更好的遗产。比如阿瑟，切斯特·阿瑟，一个彻头彻尾腐败的纽约政客，意外成为总统。他当上总统后，把以前那些腐败的亲信叫来，告诉他们：‘你们再也不能踏进白宫一步，因为现在我是总统了。’他还推动通过了《彭德尔顿公务员法》等重要改革。

It is an effort to somehow make America better, to leave behind a legacy that things are better. Arthur, Chester Arthur, totally corrupt New York politician who became president by accident. He was vice president, called in his crooked cronies and said, you're never to darken the door of the White House again. I'm the president now. And he gave us the Pendleton Civil Service Act among other things.

唐纳德·特朗普的总统任期是关于唐纳德的自我。这是对唐纳德个人的崇拜。正如托尼·施瓦茨所说，他需要人们对他充满崇拜。

Donald Trump's presidency is about Donald's ego. It's a glorification of Donald. And as Tony Schwartz says, you know, he needs people to be adoring to him.

你提到过，我们现在面临的这场假新闻运动其实并不新鲜。

You have talked about how this fake news movement that we are now contending with is actually not that new.

没错。

Right.

你谈到过，在过去四十年里，一直有人认真地试图抹黑这个国家真正的新闻业，并推动不诚实的新闻报道。

You've talked about how for the last forty years, there's been an honest effort to discredit honest journalism in this country and promote dishonest journalism.

是的，一种严肃的攻击真正新闻业的努力。我不确定我是否称它为‘认真的努力’。

Well, a serious effort to to, to attack honest journalism. I don't know I called it an honest effort.

好的，那就说是严肃的努力吧。为什么会发生这种情况？

Okay. A serious effort. Yeah. Why? Why is this happening?

你知道，记者这行并不是为了讨人喜欢。我们的职责是告诉你们一些令人不舒服的事情。有权势的人不喜欢这些。当我揭露杰克·韦尔奇退休待遇方案的运作方式并分析其经济影响时，那篇报道甚至不算长，也没有被广泛报道。

Well, you know, journalists aren't in the business of being liked. We're in the business of telling you things that are uncomfortable. Powerful people don't like things. When I revealed that how Jack Welch's retirement package worked and did the economics of it. It wasn't even a long or prominently played story.

但这件事对他打击太大了，以至于他立刻在《华尔街日报》上撰文表示，他将放弃所有这些待遇。他说，有些人不尊重合同，我只是描述了他的合同，而他本人也遵守了合同。但股东们应该知道他得到了什么，因为这些待遇和他的公开言论完全矛盾，而且他们一直被蒙在鼓里。所以我做这些不是为了被人爱。

It was so devastating to him that he immediately wrote a piece in the Wall Street Journal saying, I'm relinquishing all of this. And some people, he said, you know, don't respect contracts. I just described his contract, and then you're respecting it. But the shareholders should should know what he was getting because it was totally at odds with his public statements, and it was hidden from them. And so I don't do this to be loved.

明白吗？有些人会告诉你，我是那个把他从牢狱之灾中救出来的人，说我是个多么棒的人。但也有很多人会告诉你，他们非常非常讨厌我。

You know? I mean, there are people who will tell you I'm the you know, the guy that I kept saved from life in prison will tell you what a great guy I am, but there are plenty of people who will tell you that they, you know, hate me with a passion.

这不会让你困扰吗？

And that doesn't bother you?

不会，不会。你只要做正确的事，做你认为正确的事，做在我们这行里你能证明为真实的事。如果你无法证明，你就不能发表它。

No. No. You do what's right. You do what you believe is right and what in my business you can prove is true. If you can't prove it, you can't print it.

你是否设想华盛顿有朝一日能真正对人民负责？

Do you envision a time when Washington will ever be truly accountable to the people again?

会的，前提是我们必须废除当前的竞选资金制度。我采访过一百多位国会议员和参议员，他们都痛恨这种低声下气、四处求人捐款的制度。他们知道这种制度本质上具有腐蚀性，但正如经济学家所说，他们全都厌恶风险。

Yes. If we get rid of the current campaign finance system. I've interviewed over a 100 congressmen and senators. They all hate the groveling and the begging for money. They know it's inherently corrupting, but they're all risk averse as economists would say.

他们自己不会去改变它。你知道，从长远来看，人类会进步。但正如蒙提·派森所说，曾经有过黑暗的中世纪，我们也可能再次倒退到非常糟糕的境地。如果美国公民保持警惕，如果他们开始像关注橄榄球比赛中上一场攻防那样关注自己的政府，我们就会拥有更好的国会。

They won't change it. You know, we're we're gonna over time, human beings progress. But as Monty Python said, you know, there was the dark ages. We can slip back into very bad things. And if American citizens are vigilant, if they start paying attention to their government being as involved in politics as they are in the last scrimmage in the football game, we'll have a better congress.

你对未来感到乐观吗？

Do you feel optimistic about the future?

在现代美国，如果你是八个孩子的父亲，你就不可能不是一个彻底的乐观主义者。从长远来看，我认为我们会做得很好。我认为我们会变得更加繁荣，但我们的状况不会像本可以做到的那样好，例如，特朗普放弃了太平洋地区的领导地位，而中国填补了这一真空，正在将太平洋国家从我们身边转向中国。

You can't be the father of eight children in modern America and not be a total optimist. In the long haul, I think that we will do very well. I think we will become more prosperous, but we will not be as well off as we could be because, for example, Trump has abandoned the Pacific and China has filled the the vacuum and is orienting the Pacific countries away from us into China.

你在书中详细谈到了这一点。

You speak at length about this in the books.

是的。日本与欧盟达成了巨大的贸易协议，而当时特朗普正在波兰忙着让人赞扬他。因此，我们将为这些决定付出长期的经济代价。我认为我们面临的问题是：特朗普是一个例外，一个我们将会认识到并纠正的错误吗？而这种纠正意味着我们将在11月把许多支持他的人赶出国会。

Yes. Japan has made a huge trade deal with the European Union that Trump was, you know, off doing, oh, please glorify me in Poland at the time. And and so we're gonna pay some long term economic prices for these things. The question I think we face is, is Donald Trump an anomaly, a mistake that we're gonna recognize and we're gonna correct? And that correction means we're going to remove a lot of people from congress who are supporting him in November.

还是说他是某种趋势的开端？是否会有其他不像特朗普那样喜欢编造谎言、也没有他那种人格障碍的人出现，却会带领我们走向一个你将失去个人自由的法西斯国家？而特朗普显然完全不尊重你的自由。我们很快就会知道答案。我们即将迎来两次选举，2018年和2020年。

Or is he the beginning of a trend? And will people without Donald's deficits in terms of making things up and his personality disorders come forward and move us into becoming a fascist country in which you're gonna lose your individual liberties. And Donald Trump clearly has no regard for your liberties. We're gonna find out real fast. We got two elections coming up, '18 and '20.

到时候我会在选举日的第二天告诉你结果，不管是哪一次选举，但至少到第二次选举结束时，我们就能知道美国是将迎来更光明的未来，还是陷入非常黑暗的未来，不再成为世界自由的灯塔。尽管我们有很多缺点，但我们一直在推动人类精神的升华，让我们看到如果给予人们自由，让他们充分发挥自己的潜力，人类能够取得怎样的成就。

And I'll be glad to tell you on the day after election day either one of those two elections depending how it goes, but certainly by the end of the second, whether we're gonna have a brighter future or a very dark future and cease to be a beacon of liberty around the world. And for all of our flaws, and we got plenty of them, whether we're gonna continue the progress to ennoble the human spirit to see what human beings can accomplish if we free them up and provide them with the liberty to make the best of themselves that they can.

戴维，我想用你写的《特朗普的诞生》一书中的引言来结束今天的节目。你写道：无论你的观点如何，请深入了解。开国元勋们相信，知识和理性必须成为我们代议制民主的基石，这样我们才能实现自治。因此，请花时间学习，然后履行你作为公民的责任：投票。

David, I'd like to close the show with a quote from your book, The Making of Donald Trump. You wrote, whatever your views, become deeply informed. The founders believed that knowledge and reason must be the cornerstones of our representative democracy if we are to govern ourselves. So spend time learning and then do your duty as a citizen. Vote.

归根结底，唯一重要的是谁最终去投票了。

And at the end of the day, the only thing that matters is who turns out to vote.

大卫·K·约翰斯顿，感谢你这些充满智慧的话语，也感谢你今天做客《设计有话说》。

David k Johnston, thank you for these wise words, and thank you for joining me today on Design Matters.

谢谢你，黛比。

Thank you, Debbie.

戴维的最新著作是《情况比你想的还要糟》，讲述了特朗普政府对美国所做的一切。你可以在dcreport.org阅读更多戴维撰写的内容。这是我主持《设计有话说》的第十四年，感谢你们的收听。请记住，我们既可以谈论如何带来改变，也可以真正去做出改变，或者我们

David's latest book is It's Even Worse Than You Think, What the Trump Administration is Doing to America. You can read more written by David at dcreport.org. This is the fourteenth year I've been doing Design Matters, and I'd like to thank you for listening. And remember, we can talk about making a difference, we can make a difference, or we

可以两者兼顾。我是黛比·梅尔曼，期待很快再次与你们对话。《设计有话说》由TED音频联盟旗下的Curtis Fox制作公司制作。这些访谈通常是在纽约视觉艺术学院的品牌设计硕士课程中录制的，这是世界上最早也是持续时间最长的品牌课程。设计有话说媒体的主编是艾米丽·威兰。

can do both. I'm Debbie Melman, and I look forward to talking with you again soon. Design Matters is produced by the TED Audio Collective by Curtis Fox Productions. The interviews are usually recorded at the Masters in Branding Program at the School of Visual Arts in New York City, the first and longest running branding program in the world. The editor in chief of Design Matters Media is Emily Wylan.

大家好，我是詹姆斯，我是法哈德。

Hello, guys. I'm James. And I'm Fuhad.

我们是《混蛋与极客》播客。

And we're Shits and Geeks podcast.

本集节目由Boost Mobile为您呈现，提供可靠的全国覆盖，并享有30天无理由退款保证。如果你不满意我们的服务，可以随时退款，无需任何解释。

And this episode is brought to you by Boost Mobile, offering reliable nationwide coverage backed by a thirty day money back guarantee. Love your service or get your money back. No questions asked.

兄弟，你懂的。很明显，我用的是一个运营商，而你用的是另一个运营商。有时候我信号好，你信号差。

Brother, you know how it goes. Obviously, I'm on one provider. You're on another provider. Sometimes I have good signal. You have bad signal.

你信号差，我信号好。我就会感到焦虑，心想，我该换吗？值得换吗？换了会更好吗？

You have bad signal. I have good signal. And I get stressed, and I think, shall I change? Is it worth changing? Is it gonna make it better?

我不知道。我和现在的运营商合作很久了。我也是。这让人很焦虑，而且我不想麻烦。好了，各位，接下来就是转折点。

I don't know. I've been with my provider for a long time. Same. It's anxiety inducing, and I don't want the hassle. Well, guys and girls, here's the twist.

Boost Mobile为你提供与你目前所使用的全国覆盖范围和网络速度相同的服务，但价格要便宜得多。

Boost Mobile gives you the same nationwide coverage and network speeds that you're already used to for way less money.

没错。Boost Mobile提供无限流量套餐，月付仅需25美元起。没有涨价，没有合约，无需多设备捆绑，只有稳定的覆盖和真正的价值。

That's right. Boost Mobile gives you unlimited plans starting at just $25 a month. No price hikes, no contracts, no multiline faff, just solid coverage and proper value.

如果你坐在那里想，兄弟，这听起来太好了，不像是真的，别担心。我们提供30天无条件退款保证。你可以免费试用，如果不喜欢，可以全额退还服务费用。当你转用Boost Mobile时，好处多多。通过与漫游合作伙伴的共同努力，Boost Mobile覆盖了美国99%的人口区域。

And if you're sitting there thinking, bro, this sounds too good to be true, don't worry. You've got a thirty day money back guarantee. Try it risk free, and if you don't love it, you get your service fees back. There are plenty of benefits when you switch to Boost Mobile. Together with their roaming partners, Boost Mobile covers 99% of The US population.

5G速度并非在所有地区都可用。

Five g speeds not available in all areas.

无论你是在刷手机、看视频，还是沉浸在群聊中，Boost Mobile都能为你提供稳定连接。

So whether you're scrolling, streaming, or just lost in a group chat, you're covered.

归根结底，Boost Mobile让你在不牺牲网络覆盖的前提下节省开支，而且没有人会把你绑定在合约里。

Bottom line, Boost Mobile gives you the freedom to save money without sacrificing coverage, and no one's locking you into anything.

访问最近的Boost Mobile门店，或登录boostmobile.com网站了解更多信息。

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store or find them online at boostmobile.com.

记住网址是boostmobile.com。可靠的服务，全面的覆盖，没有压力。

That's boostmobile.com. Reliable service, proper coverage, and no stress.

注意听好了。现在转用Boost Mobile，只需49.99美元即可购买搭载Apple智能功能的全新iPhone 16 e。我们为了给你争取这个优惠熬了好多个通宵，嘿，别再捣鼓麦克风了。

Listen up. You can get the new iPhone 16 e with Apple intelligence for just $49.99 when you switch to Boost Mobile. We pulled so many all nighters to give you this deal, and, hey, stop messing with the mic.

我只是帮助这个引起人们的注意。

I'm just helping this catch people's attention.

这是一个绝佳的交易。

This is a great deal.

没错，所以它不需要那么多东西。

Exactly. So it doesn't need all that.

好的。

Fine.

马上前往你附近的Boost Mobile门店

Head to your nearest Boost Mobile store right

现在就去。

now.

请前往附近的Boost Mobile门店了解完整优惠详情。Apple智能功能需要iOS 18.1或更高版本。适用限制条件。

Visit your nearest Boost Mobile store for full offer details. Apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later. Restrictions apply.

嘿，大家好。我是Gigli Squad的Hannah。你们知道我热爱美妆，所以我选择去Sephora。这不仅仅是购物，而是一种华丽的体验。美妆顾问真正懂得美妆，不像那些大型百货商店，他们能给我所有我需要的建议。

Hey, guys. It's Hannah from Gigli Squad. You know I love beauty and that's why I go to Sephora. It's not just shopping, it's like a glam experience. The beauty advisers actually get beauty unlike those big box stores, and they give me all the advice I need.

我喜欢购买只能在Sephora找到的产品，比如我最新喜爱的Kiyali香水、最适合我的House Labs粉底色号，还有终于补货的Laneige唇膜，这一切都得益于真正的专家。哦，还有如果你还没试过Day shampoo，一定要去试试，它会让你彻底改观。Sephora不仅仅是一家商店，它是美妆的终极目的地。

And I love going with the products you can only find at Sephora, like my new favorite Kiyali fragrance, my perfect shade of House Labs foundation, and finally restocked my Laneige lip mask, all with the help of real experts. Oh, and if you haven't tried day shampoo, go try it. It's a game changer. Sephora isn't just a store. It's the beauty destination.

快去吧，之后你会感谢我的。

Go. You'll thank me later.

Prime 送货非常快。有多快？快到你的拼图玩具和画板还没反应过来就已经送到，让你能迅速控制住这只小狗。快到你几乎没等待，磨牙玩具就已经到门口了。

Prime delivery is fast. How fast are we talking? We're talking puzzle toys and look pad delivered so fast, you can get this puppy under control. Fast. We're talking chew toys at your door without really waiting fast.

尿垫、降温垫、啄头玩具。又快又更快。还有你还没迈出一步，训练零食就已经送到的快。现在我们都可以放松一下，订购这些配套的连帽衫，既舒适又可爱，而且快！享受快速的免费配送。

Pee pads, cooling mat, peck head. Fast and fast. And there's training t r e a t s faster than you can take a step fast. And now we can all relax and order these matching hoodies to get cozy and cute fast. Fast free delivery.

它就在 Prime 上。

It's on Prime.