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这一集是你从未意识到自己需要的身材自信加油话。
This episode is the body image pep talk you didn't know you needed.
嘿，反叛者，欢迎收听《饮食文化反叛者》播客。
Hey, Rebel, and welcome to the Diet CultureRebel podcast.
我是你们的主持人邦妮，一名注册营养师和认证直觉饮食顾问，我的目标是帮你摆脱罪恶感地进食，不靠节食追求健康，成为直觉饮食者，并对饮食文化竖起中指。
I'm your host, Bonnie, a registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor here to help you eat without guilt and pursue health without dieting by becoming an intuitive eater and giving diet culture the middle finger.
说实话，录这期节目的时候，我觉得整个社会在理想女性身材这件事上，好像倒退了一大步。
I've gotta be honest, at the time of this recording, it feels like culturally, we have taken a big step back when it comes to the ideal woman's body.
明星和网红们的身材正在迅速变瘦，这谁都知道。
It is no secret that celebrities' and influencers' bodies are shrinking rapidly.
即使你像我一样强烈反对这种趋势，我们当下所处的这种文化氛围，依然可能影响你对自己的身体感受。
And even if you vehemently disagree with it like I do, this cultural moment we are in can still impact your body image and the way you feel about yourself.
正因如此，你才更需要听今天这一期节目。
And that is why you need to listen to today's podcast episode.
我跟你说，这真的是你急需的那剂身材自信强心针，建议你收藏起来，每次觉得自己身体形象低落时，就回来听一听。
Trust me when I say, it is the body image pep talk you didn't know you needed, and I want you to bookmark it and come back to it every single time you need a body image pick me up.
听好了。
Listen.
身体形象有好有坏，这很正常，你可能会有感觉很好的日子，也会有特别难熬的日子。
It's normal for body image to ebb and flow for you to have positive body image days and then harder ones.
接受这一点，能让你提前做好准备，遇到难熬的日子时不至于彻底崩溃或倒退。接下来这段播客会给你很多实用的方法，帮你积极应对这些不可避免的低谷期，最终让积极的身体感受多过负面的。
Accepting this can help you anticipate the harder days instead of having them totally derail you or backslide you, and this episode that you are about to listen to will give you tons of ideas on how you can positively navigate those inevitable harder body image days and ultimately get to the place where more positive body image days outweigh the hard ones.
今天这期节目，是应大家强烈要求再次推出的，嘉宾是励志演讲者和博主肯齐·布伦娜。
Today's episode is a conversation back by popular demand with Kenzie Brenna, a motivational speaker and influencer.
这期节目最初是三年多前播出的。
This original episode was aired more than three years ago.
当我重新听了一遍，真的忍不住说：太棒了。
And when I relistened to it, I was like, wow.
雷bel，作为你的主持人，我现在就想让你听这段话，就现在听。
This is something, Rebel, that I want you, my listener, to hear right now, to hear today.
这段对话特别贴合我们当下这个‘以瘦为美’的文化氛围。
It is a conversation that, like, is so relevant for this cultural thin is in moment that we are in right now.
你今天即将听到的内容，比以往任何时候都更需要。
What you are about to hear today is truly needed more than ever right now.
无论你是第一次听这个节目，还是第二、第三、第四甚至第五次，我都迫不及待想看到你听完后身体形象能有所改善。
Whether this is your first time listening to the episode or your second or third or fourth or fifth, I can't wait for your body image to improve after you listen.
我先说明一下，这个节目仅供教育和信息参考，不能替代专业的医疗建议或治疗。
My standard disclaimer, this episode is for educational and informational purposes only and is not a substitute for individual medical care or advice.
好了，肯齐。
All right, Kenzie.
我一直是你主页的粉丝，关注你很久了。
So I am a longtime follower and fan of your page.
我特别喜欢你主页传递的那种积极身体形象，这在今天这个文化环境下真的很难得。
And what I love so much about your page is the positive body image that you are always portraying, which is something that's so hard for people, especially in our culture today.
你经常谈到接纳自己、尊重身体、对自己说话更温柔一些。
And you really talk a lot about accepting yourself, treating your body with respect, speaking more kindly to yourself.
我很好奇。
I'm curious.
你和自己的身体的关系，一直都是这样的吗？
Was your relationship with your body, or has your relationship with your body always been this way?
这个问题太棒了，非常感谢你邀请我来。
Such a great question, and thank you so much for having me on.
今天能和你聊天，还能实时交流，我真的很兴奋。
I'm so excited to chat with you today and to sort of meet you in real time.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
我以前对身体的看法完全不是这样的。
My body image has not always been this way at all.
直到最近五年，我才真正开始走上积极看待身体的道路，这在我整个人生里其实算很短的一段时间。
It has really only begun to be a more positive body image journey, I would say, particularly in the last five years, which is actually, like, kind of a short time in my, you know, human life.
我从小就有很糟糕的身体形象，自尊心也很低。
But I grew up with very low body image and pretty low self esteem.
我小时候总听到互相矛盾的说法：你喜欢你的曲线，但你又太曲线了。
I grew up with very conflicting messages of we like your curves, but then you're too curvy.
我一直想长高，结果我确实比一般人高，虽然也不算特别高，但有五英尺八英寸。
I wanted to be tall, and then I was taller than like, I'm I'm not that tall, but I'm five eight.
可大家又不希望女孩子比男孩还高。
And but we don't want you taller than, like, the boys.
我小时候一直为饮食问题挣扎，这同样严重影响了我的身体形象——我注意到我哥哥想吃啥就吃啥，因为他怎么吃都不胖。
And I was constantly struggling with eating growing up, and that definitely impacted my body image as well because I noticed that my brother was allowed to eat whatever he wanted because he didn't gain weight.
等我青春期开始发胖后，我的饮食就被人严格监控了。
And my eating became monitored once I started to put on weight mostly through puberty.
这对我影响特别大。
And that really impacted me.
有时候我陷入一种羞耻的循环，甚至都不算循环，就是一直卡在那里。
And there was it created a bit of a shame spiral at times or just not even like a spiral.
我总觉得，这辈子一直被一层羞耻感笼罩着。
I would just say, like, a cloud of shame that, like, kind of hung over me for most of my life.
我一直坚信一个错误的想法：只要瘦下来，就能永远瘦下去，然后就会幸福。
And I had a fallacy that I was chasing forever, and it was once you get thin, you'll be thin forever, and then you'll be happy.
那时候，你想要的一切都会得到。
Like, you'll get everything you wanted.
对。
Mhmm.
后来我经历了反复节食，直到在Instagram上接触到身体接纳运动，才慢慢放下节食，不再因为自己不符合所谓美的标准而苛责自己，转而学会接纳自己，接受心理治疗，重新与自己的身体和解，试着去爱它。
And once I kind of went through the dieting cycle and had sort of a revelation after finding the body positivity community on Instagram, I began to shift away from dieting and being really hard on myself for not fitting into ideal beauty standards to self acceptance and therapy and coming back home to my body and trying to find love for it.
这段路，真的走得很不容易。
So it's been, like, quite quite a journey.
说了这么多，其实以前并不是这样的。
That was a bit of a long answer, but it hasn't always been this way.
这段经历真的很难。
It's been really difficult.
当然我不是每天都状态很好，但我觉得那些低谷的日子，已经远没有以前那么糟了。
And not that I have great days all the time, but I would say that the low days are not nearly as low as they used to be.
是的。
Yeah.
真厉害。
Wow.
听到你这些年有这么大的转变，真的让人特别欣慰。
Well, that's that's amazing to hear how much it's improved for you over the years.
我觉得很多人都和你一样，被各种矛盾的信息困扰，总觉得只要把身材改造成某种样子，就能获得幸福。
And I think for so many people, they experience similar struggles that you did with all of these mixed messages and thinking that if we can just change our bodies to look a certain way, that we'll have this happiness.
这种对减肥的幻想，很多人都深信不疑。
It's like that weight loss fantasy that so many people buy into.
但这些互相矛盾的要求，根本不可能做到。
But then these mixed messages, it's impossible to achieve.
就像你说的，要够瘦，但又不能比男生高。
Just like you were saying, was like, you know, be a certain height, but don't be taller than the boys.
要有正确的曲线，但不能在不该有曲线的地方有。
Have the right curves, but don't have curves in the wrong place.
这是一种根本无法达成的标准。
It's this impossible standard to chase.
我觉得，当我们从小就开始经历这些事，却还没有足够的认知去理解：为什么关于食物的事这么奇怪？
And I think when we have these experiences that start for us when we are so young, when we don't have, like, that level of understanding to know, like, why is this weird around food?
为什么我哥哥能吃，我却不能？
Why can my brother eat something and I can't?
为什么我父母在饮食上对哥哥和我对不一样，等等？
Why are my parents treating my brother differently around food than me, etcetera?
我提到这些，是因为有客户跟我分享过类似的经历。
And I'm just sharing that because I've had clients say that.
这些经历真的会影响我们，甚至伴随我们到成年。
It can really impact us and stay with us through adulthood.
是啊。
Oh, yeah.
完全同意。
Totally.
我觉得，如果这种事情发生在小时候，感觉就像更深的伤痕，当然，成年人经历的事也有它的分量。
I feel like when it happens at a pretty young age, it feels like it's a not that it's a deeper cut because, of course, like, things that happen in your adult life are also, like, carry their depth as well.
但小时候，你整个人是围绕着这些伤痕长大的。
But when you're a child, it's like you're it's like you form around the wounds.
你是在伤痕中成长的，这些伤痕某种程度上成了你的一部分。
It's like you're growing up around the wounds, and the wounds are, like, part of you in a way.
而作为成年人，如果发生什么事，你的情感世界已经成型了，然后才受到冲击。
Whereas as an adult, if something happens, like, for lack of a better word, like, your emotional landscape, it's, like, developed and then something happens.
所以，小时候那种没被明说的叙事或隐形标准，确实很难摆脱。
So it's hard when it that, yeah, growing up, there is that narrative or that that implicit standard that isn't being explicitly addressed.
等你成年后，再看透饮食文化或审美标准的真相时，想要彻底扭转它们，真的很难。
And when you kind of, like, lift the veil of diet culture or beauty standards in your adult life, it is hard to completely reverse it.
是的。
Oh, yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这几乎是每天都会遇到的事，因为它一直都在。
Like, I would say, like, it's it's almost like an everyday thing because it's still around.
即使你换了不同的信息流，或者身边有一群多元化的、各种体型的朋友，你还是很难完全摆脱它。
Like, you're still submerged in it even if you have a different feed or even if you have a, like, a beautiful wealth of diverse friends and you're surrounding yourself with all of these different kinds of people with all of the all of these different kinds of bodies, it's still hard.
还是很难。
It's still difficult.
那些念头还是会冒出来。
Those things still come up.
你还是会感受到压力，或者在某些时刻，那种伤口的隐隐作痛又会浮现。
You still feel the pressure, or you still feel that ache of the wound a little bit come up at certain at certain times.
你可能自信满满，但一去试牛仔裤，就变了。
Like, you might be extremely confident, and then you go to try on a pair of jeans somewhere.
然后你发现，自己稍微胖了一点。
And then you realize that you've gained a little bit of weight.
有一瞬间，你真的讨厌自己。
And for a second, you hate yourself for a second.
但接着你可能会运用过去这段时间学到的一切，慢慢意识到自己比想象中更坚韧，那种对自己的厌恶感，其实只持续几秒钟而已。
And then you might practice everything that you've been learning over the last however long, and you build you realize that you're more resilient and that that pocket of disliking yourself only lasts a couple of seconds.
以前的话，这种情绪能拖你整整一周，让你陷入恶性循环，或者陷入深深的羞耻。
Whereas before it would have taken you out for a week, you would have spiraled or had a shame spot.
是的。
Yeah.
这真的很难，我觉得没人能完全做到，但我们都正在路上。
Like, it's so hard, and I don't think anybody fully has it, but I think we're all getting it.
我觉得我们都在一起，努力创造一个更好的世界。
Like, I think we're all here, like, building the better world kinda thing.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得这些真诚的对话特别重要，因为有时候我们会误以为，康复就意味着再也不会有糟糕的身体形象时刻，或者完全不受外界信息的影响，但事实远非如此。
And I think that these honest conversations are really important because we can sometimes create an expectation that healing is having a lack of hard body image days or not feeling activated by the messages around us, and that's so far from the truth.
关键是学会对这些事有抵抗力，用这些年学到的方法积极应对，就像你说的那样。
It's more about becoming resilient to them and using the tools that you've learned over the years to positively navigate them, just like you said.
它们可能还是会让你困扰，毕竟我们都是人，生活在这样的饮食文化里，但至少不会再像以前那样让你一蹶不振好几天了，这真的太棒了。
So maybe they do bother you because we're all human, and we're swimming in this diet culture world, but it's not taking you out for a week like it has before, which is so amazing.
所以我觉得，建立这种现实的期待特别重要。
So I think that realistic expectation is so important to adopt.
我特别想知道你的故事，因为你提到，你大概五年前才做出这么大的改变。
And I'm really curious to hear more about your story because you said that you really only made this huge change five or so years ago.
有没有那么一个时刻，让你意识到饮食文化其实骗了你？
So was there a moment where you can recall maybe diet culture failing you?
我们常把这种时刻叫做‘饮食崩溃’。
We often call this diet bottom.
我跟我的客户就这么说。
Like, that's what I say with my clients.
你知道的吧。
You know?
他们意识到那些节食方法根本没用，心里特别想让自己感觉好一点。
They realize that the diets haven't worked for them, and they're like, I am so desperate to feel better.
我愿意做任何事，哪怕这意味着不再节食。
I will do anything even if it means not dieting.
所以我很好奇，你有没有经历过一个转折点？
So I'm curious if you had kind of a turning point.
是的。
Yeah.
这个问题真好。
Such a beautiful question.
我很喜欢‘节食低谷’这个说法。
And I love that phrase, diet bottom.
我们是不是都曾在某个时候跌入过节食低谷？
Oh, have we all at some point hit a diet bottom?
当然了。
Absolutely.
是的
Yeah.
我也特别欣赏你对疗愈的见解。
And I just loved your perspective on healing as well.
我想再多说一句，疗愈本质上是一段没有终点的旅程。
I just wanted to linger there for a second that healing is very much a journey without a destination.
根本就没有终点。
Like, there is no destination.
疗愈从来都不是一劳永逸的事。
There is no finality to healing.
你疗愈了一件事，接着另一件事就会浮现出来，或者又发生点什么，你得再去面对。
You heal one thing, and then something else reveals itself to you, or something else happens that then you have to deal with.
对。
Yes.
疗愈是一辈子的事。
Healing is a forever endeavor.
我觉得，那些曾经受过饮食失调、进食障碍或节食文化困扰的人，往往容易陷入非黑即白的思维模式。
And I just think with people who've struggled with disordered eating or eating disorders or diet culture, we tend to live in these boxes of all or nothing.
而康复的过程恰恰会打破这种思维，因为它根本不是非此即彼的游戏。
And healing just is is going to rock you because it's not an all or nothing game.
它更像是一场永无止境的解开过程。
It's like a forever unraveling.
所以我特别感谢你提到这一点，我觉得更多人需要提醒来访者、社群、朋友和亲人：这条路，我们得做好打持久战的准备。
So I just I really appreciated you saying that, and I think more people need to remind clients, community, peers, our loved ones that, like, we're in this for the long haul.
话虽如此，我现在已经走了五年，但离五年、十年、二十年后的自己，还差得远呢。
And with that being said, like, yeah, I'm five years into this journey, but I'm nowhere near to where I'm going to be in another five years or ten years or twenty years.
我们就是一直在成长。
Like, we just keep growing.
我最低谷的时刻，是在五六年前提醒自己去健身房的时候。
And my diet bottom was a moment in the gym about five or six years ago.
我当初开这个账号，本来是想用来减重、监督自己的。
I actually started my account as a weight loss account, as an accountability account.
我当时参加了一个线上项目，说实话，氛围特别好。
And I was doing this online program that was really to be totally honest, it was really positive.
那真是一段非常、非常、非常积极的经历。
It was a very, very, very positive experience.
那是我第一次感受到和一群理解彼此处境的女性在一起的归属感，这对我意义重大。
It was the first time I I felt in community with women who kind of understood what we were all going through, and that was a really positive thing for me.
于是我就开了一个独立的Instagram账号，用来监督自己，发饮食记录、前后对比照之类的。
And And so I started up a separate Instagram account to keep myself accountable, to post my macros, to post, like, my before and afters, all of that.
那一年里，我慢慢但稳定地减掉了很多体重。
And then slowly but surely over that year, I had lost a significant amount of weight.
粉丝一下子涨了几千人。
I gained, like, a couple of thousand followers.
我当时就觉得，我真正进入这个圈子了。
And I was like, I'm in the world.
我真的融入了健身圈子里。
I'm, like, in the fitness world.
我真的特别喜欢，说实话。
And I was I just I loved it, to be totally honest.
然后你的身体就会遇到平台期，这其实特别正常。
And then what happens is your body plateaus, which is a very normal thing.
身体只是在自我调节而已。
Your body's just, like, regulating.
这个我们就不深入说了。
It's we I don't we don't have to get into that.
确实如此。
So true, though.
对。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
一旦遇到平台期，身体就相当于在说：咱们就停在这儿吧。
You hit a plateau, and that's like your body's like, we're good here.
我们就只是放松一下。
Like, we're chilling.
我们状态挺好。
We're okay.
但在我心里，我清楚我们其实并不好。
And, obviously, in my mind, I was like, we are not okay.
我和我的健身教练聊了，说我真想再把热量摄入减一减。
And I was talking to my fitness coaches, and I was like, I really, really want to cut my macros again.
他们特别理解我。
And they were really good.
他们说：不行。
They were like, no.
我们不会再让你减热量了。
We're we're not gonna cut your macros anymore.
我们不希望你吃得比现在还少。
We don't want you to be eating less than you are.
我当时对这个还挺生气的。
And I was, like, pretty upset with that.
我那时候在搞碳水循环，满脑子都是吃的，因为老觉得饿。
And I was doing this thing called carb cycling, and I couldn't think about anything other than food because I was just hungry all of the time.
后来我遇到了平台期，记得有次去健身房。
And I hit this plateau, and I remember going to the gym.
我饿得不行，头还发晕。
And I was so hungry, and I was so lightheaded.
我想顺便说一下，我其实吃了很多东西。
And I was like, I would say, like, also just for the record, like, I was eating a lot of food.
我是真在吃，不是没吃。
Like, I had, like, a I was eating.
我不希望别人以为我吃得少。
Like, I don't want people to think that I wasn't eating.
对。
Right.
我当时运动量太大了，热量赤字太严重，按理说那时候该多吃点，但我还是吃得很少。
I was just exercising so much, and I had so much of a deficit that at that point, I should have been eating, like, a lot more, but I was eating.
我是说，我确实吃了。
Like, I was yeah.
所以，不好意思啊。
So I just sorry.
我只是想说明一下这一点。
I just wanted to put that out there.
对。
Yeah.
不过，总之我还是去了健身房。
But, anyways, I went to the gym.
我站上体重秤一看。
I just stepped on the scale.
体重一点都没降。
I hadn't lost any weight.
而且我觉得，好像还重了一两磅之类的，不过后来我又减掉了。
And I I I, like, I think I, like, even, like, gained a pound or something, and I I lost it.
我真的完全把体重给减下去了。
I totally I completely lost it.
我当时在洗手间里哭，心里想着，我得赶紧从隔间出来，去拿储物柜里的包，然后回家。
I was crying in the bathroom, and I was like, I just need to make it out of this stall to get my bag for my locker to go home.
我也不知道怎么回事，但我决定去Instagram上搜一下“自信”或者“自我接纳”的标签。
I don't know what it was, but I decided to look up the hashtag on Instagram self confidence or self acceptance.
我记不清到底是哪一个了。
I can't remember which one it was.
结果我发现那群人，她们就坐在那儿，穿着瑜伽裤、运动内衣，露着腿，还有橘皮组织和妊娠纹。
And I ended up finding the group of people who were sitting and existing in, like, their leggings and their sports bra and their roles and their cellulite and their stretch marks.
我当时就想，这到底是怎么回事啊？
And I was like, what the hell is this?
说真的，我以前从来没见过这种场面。
Like, I had genuinely never seen that before.
我当时就想，这些人到底在说什么？怎么就能这么坦然地接纳自己？
I was like, what are these people talking about that they're okay and comfortable with themselves?
我心想，这些人怎么可能真的这么自在？
Like, I was like, there is no way that these people are good.
不可能的事。
No way.
这跟我过去所有经历都完全相反。
There's I just that was so backwards from anything that I had ever experienced.
但这些内容居然让我停止了哭泣，我收拾好东西就走了。
But it managed to get me to stop crying, and I got my stuff.
我回家后，整个人都被这些帖子淹没了，一股脑儿全看完了。
And I went home, and I was, like, really engulfed by all of these posts, and I, like, ate them all up.
所以我回家后，一直在刷这些内容。
So I went home and I was consuming all of this content.
第二天，我决定发一张自己穿着运动内衣和瑜伽裤坐着的照片，没摆姿势，也不是对比图。
And the next day, I decided to post up, like, me sitting down in my sports bra and leggings without me flexing or without it being a before photo.
那一刻，我终于意识到，无论怎样，我都不会觉得足够。
And that was that was, like, the bottom of of me being like, it's never gonna be enough.
我永远不够瘦，也永远没法靠染发来摆脱对身体的厌恶。
Like, I'm never gonna be thin enough, and I'm never gonna be able to dye it my way out of bad body image.
这种感觉一直都在，挥之不去。
Like, it's always lingering, and it's always there.
我越来越沉迷于别人因为我减肥而夸我，可一旦没人再夸了，我就开始想：我是不是不够好了？
And I was getting so hooked and fixated on people complimenting me for my weight loss that once that became normal, like, once people stop complimenting me, I was like, am I not good enough anymore?
认可去哪儿了？
Where's the validation?
关注去哪儿了？
Where is the attention?
突然间我明白了，那些人在谈论饮食文化的时候，我才恍然大悟。
And it just hit me in the face that with all of these other people who were talking about what diet culture was that I was like, wow.
我从来没意识到，自己早就深陷在这种文化里这么多年了。
I didn't even realize that this was a culture that I've been submerged in for so many years.
那时候我根本没意识到，自己其实正在受饮食失调的困扰。
And I thought I didn't even realize at that point that I was even struggling with an eating disorder.
我只是觉得，我大概就是不会节食吧。
I was like, oh, I just thought I was just bad at dieting.
我就觉得自己节食总是搞砸了。
Like, I just thought I was bad at dieting.
说了这么多，归根结底就是一句话：我真的撑不下去了。
So very long winded answer again, but that was my diet bottom of just like, I can't do this.
我气得要死，恨自己的身体怎么就是瘦不下来。
Like, I'm so angry at my body for not losing weight.
我到底在干什么呢？
And what am I doing?
我到底在折腾什么？
Like, what am I doing?
我曾经有那么一瞬间觉得开心，可现在又不快乐了。
Because I'm not I was happy for a second, and now I'm not again.
目标总是不断移动，不停地移动。
And it's like the goalpost just keeps shifting and shifting and shifting.
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
从那一刻起，事情就变了。
So from that moment forward, things have been different.
而且again，不是线性的，但确实不一样了。
And again, nonlinear, but different.
对。
Yeah.
这就是节食的问题所在，怎么都感觉不够。
And that's the thing when it comes to dieting like this is it it really never feels like enough.
而且我们的大脑也会被误导，觉得为了达到目标，什么都愿意做。
And it misses with our brain where it's like, we're willing to do anything.
为什么我们不能再少吃一点呢？
Like, why can't we cut our calories more?
为什么不能让身体以为自己在减重，从而多掉点体重？
Why can't we just trick our body into losing more weight?
我想特别提一下你提到的这一点，因为很多人跟我讲过类似的经历：他们觉得自己吃得挺合理，热量赤字也控制得不错，吃的量看起来也差不多。
And something really that I want to highlight from your story, because a lot of people tell me something similar, that maybe they had a sensible calorie deficit and, you know, they they were eating like an okay amount of food or what seemed like an okay amount of food.
但事实上，即使你吃的量在别人看来已经算合理了，如果还是不够身体所需，也会严重影响你和食物的关系。
But the reality is even if we have what's considered a sensible deficit and we're not eating enough for our body, it can have profound effects on our relationship with food.
就像你一样，整天盯着体重秤，哪怕只重了一磅，一整天心情就全毁了。
So just like you were so preoccupied with the scale, like, not or gaining one pound, like, ruined your day.
因为饿，脑子里整天想的都是吃的。
Thinking about food all the time because you were hungry.
这些其实是节食常见的后果，但很多人以为，只有吃得特别特别少，少到像小孩那样，甚至更少，才会出现这些问题。
Like, these are consequences of dieting that we see all the time, and I think a lot of people think, well, you know, that they need to be eating super, super low calorie, like toddler amounts of food or less to have these consequences.
但真相是，哪怕只是所谓的‘合理’热量赤字，也足以让我们对食物和自己产生这样的感受。
But the reality is even what's considered a sensible deficit can really make us feel this way around food and ourselves.
是的。
Yeah.
非常感谢你指出这一点。
Thanks so much for pointing that out.
你这么形容真是太贴切了，说‘合理热量缺口’真好，表面上看好像挺合理，但你的皮质醇可能已经高到让身体彻底乱套了。
That's such a good way to describe it, and that's such a great phrase to call it a sensible deficit because it might seem sensible, but you might be so rocked with cortisol that your system is just, like, wreaking havoc on itself.
我觉得当时虽然觉得挺合理，但回头想想，也许我的身体实际需要的热量是那时候的两倍都不止。
And I think that even though that it felt sensible at the time, I think with the idea that, like, what does that even mean in terms of, like, my body might have needed, like, double the amount of that or so on.
你说得太对了。
Like, you're so right.
对。
Yeah.
如果你整天都被食物搞得焦虑不安，那就算表面上看起来没那么极端，也不代表你和食物的关系就更健康，我那时候就是如此。
I think that it doesn't necessarily mean that you still have a good that you still have a more positive relationship with food if you're so stressed about food all of the time, and that's what it was.
那简直是一波接一波的压力打击。
Like, it was like these constant hits of stress.
我那时候总是提前准备好饭菜。
And I was like, I was always meal prepping.
我整天都在纠结自己吃了什么。
I was always consumed about what I was eating.
我从来没法和伴侣或者他家人一起吃晚饭，因为我对自己饮食的要求太严格了。
I could never eat dinner with my partner or his family or anything like that because I had I was, like, really, really, really regimented.
那是我第一次意识到，原来我也可以这么有纪律。
And it was also the first time I had ever experienced that side of me that that was really disciplined.
说实话，知道我有能力这么自律，其实是一件挺好的事。
And I have to say, like, knowing that that's possible for me to be that disciplined is a really positive thing.
而且我意识到，我可以把这种专注和投入用在别的地方——比如心理咨询、冥想、照顾自己。这才是真正美好的转变：原来我可以为真正重视的事情全力以赴，但前提是，那得是我真心想要、觉得有价值的东西。
And knowing that I could actually apply that discipline and apply that part of me that feels really devoted, like I'm a disciple to this thing that I value and shift that to therapy and meditation and taking care of myself, that is such a it's such a beautiful thing that was that that came from that of, wow, I can actually work hard for the things that I want, but they have to be things that I actually want and find value in.
对。
Mhmm.
我觉得特别有意思的是，其实我们都不喜欢节食。
And that's also something that I think is so revealing is that, like, I just think that we all really don't don't like diet.
他们说，我们根本不喜欢。
Like, they're like, we no.
我们不喜欢节食。
We don't like dieting.
对，不喜欢。
No.
就是不喜欢。
No.
我也是觉得，根本不喜欢。
I'm like, no.
难怪我们总是做不好。
No wonder, like, we're not good at it.
因为我们本来就不喜欢。
Like, we don't like it.
你明白吧？
You know?
是的。
Yeah.
但我们真的很享受彼此之间的联结。
But we really like being connected to one another.
我们特别喜欢笑声、快乐、拥抱、温柔，还有听一张特别棒的专辑。
We really like laughter and joy and hugs and tenderness and listening to a really cool album.
我们热爱创造力，享受心有灵犀的感觉，更渴望被爱。
And we love being able to be creative and having synchronicity and, like, feeling loved.
我们真的很看重这些，愿意为它们付出一切。
Like, we love those things, and we'll do anything for them.
而节食，其实代表的就是这些。
And that's what dieting represents.
节食背后，是快乐、联结、爱、接纳，还有创造力。
Dieting represents joy, connection, love, acceptance, creative.
你看那些在节食的人，他们其实心里想的，就是这些。
Like, you see people who are dieting, and they're just like, yeah.
我就是凌晨三点醒过来，离六点还有整整一上午，整个人特别放松，一点压力都没有，挺好的。
I just, like, wake up at 03:00 in the morning, and I have a whole day before 6AM, and I'm just so okay and it's so easy and it's fine.
然后你就想，哦，原来如此。
And you're like, oh, okay.
如果我想过上那样的生活，那就得控制热量摄入之类的吧。
In order if I wanna be like that, then I also have to be in a caloric deficit or whatever it is.
是的。
Yeah.
我有点跑题了。
I'm going off.
但说到底，节食根本就是对生活中其他真正重要东西的一种误解。
But, yeah, like, it's just it's so it's such a false representation of other things that exist in the world.
一旦我们放下节食，转而去追寻那些真正重要的东西，生活就会变得特别精彩、美好、充满魔力，这才算真正开始了。
And when we remove dieting and then when when we actually search for those things, life gets really exciting and beautiful and magical, and it really begins.
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It does.
我坚信，任何能坚持那种节食、像你所说的那样自律的人，完全能把这份能力用到生活中更重要的事情上，因为你明明有能力应对困难。
And I'm such a believer that for anyone who can put themselves through all of that dieting, like what you were talking about and being disciplined with that, then you can absolutely shift that to other areas of your life that are really more important to you because clearly, like, you can do hard things.
如果你有过节食的经历，那就说明你有勇气面对挑战，去做那些特别特别难的事。
If you have a history of dieting, like, you are capable of putting yourself out there and doing things that are really, really hard.
听到节食给我们带来这么多虚假的承诺和希望，真是个很好的提醒。
And it's such a good reminder to hear about how dieting gives us these false promises and these false hopes.
它似乎能填补我们生活中的各种空缺。
Like, it can fill all these voids in our lives.
但我们得退一步好好想想：长远来看，它到底给我们带来了什么？
But we have to take a step back and really ask, like, how has it served us long term?
就像你说的，你根本没法对食物保持平常心。
Just like what you said, you weren't able to be normal around food.
你甚至没办法像你说的那样，和你男朋友一起正常吃饭。
Like, you couldn't just eat with your I think you said your boyfriend at a time.
这真的深刻地影响了我们的生活。
And it it really impacts our lives profoundly.
所以你意识到了这一切。
So you realize all of this.
你采取了行动去改变。
You took steps to change.
我知道你提过，那天你跌到谷底，就在Instagram上搜了一个标签。
I know you said that, you know, that day you hit your bottom, you're like you you searched a hashtag on Instagram.
你拍了一张没修过的自拍照。
You took an unedited photo of yourself.
你把它发到了网上。
You posted it online.
你觉得，有没有哪一步最关键，让你开始对食物和自己的身体有了不一样的感受？
Do you think there's maybe, like, one big step that you took that helped you really start to feel differently around food in your body?
也许就是那一步，但我不确定你是不是还想补充点别的。
And maybe it was that, but I'm not sure if you would add anything else to it.
这真是
That's such
个很好的问题。
a great question.
大概是我在Instagram上丰富了我的关注列表，因为我之前花太多时间在上面，主要关注减肥社群和那些和我一起参加减肥、力量训练项目的女性。
Probably diversifying my feed on Instagram because I was spending so much time on Instagram from the from being connected to the, like, the weight loss community and the women who are in that, not the diet program, but who are in that, like, weight loss, weight training program with me.
是的。
Yeah.
我那时候在线上花了很多时间。
I was spending so much time online.
当我开始丰富我的关注内容后，很多事情才真正为我打开了新的可能。
And when I diversified my feet, again, like, things, like, really opened up for me.
当我逐渐取消关注那些人时——这并不是一夜之间发生的。
And when I stopped following again, this wasn't like an overnight thing.
这是一个比较缓慢的过程，但最终我还是取消关注了那些还在发前后对比照、或者老是谈论热量摄入的人。
This was, like, pretty gradual, but eventually unfollowing people that were, like, still posting up before and afters or still talking about, like, their macros.
也不是我讨厌那种话题。
Like, it's not even that I hated that talk.
我只是觉得，这已经提不起我的兴趣了。
I was just like, this just no longer is interesting.
我根本不在乎你是怎么吃上低卡冰淇淋的。
Like, I don't I don't actually find it interesting how you manage to fit in, like, this low calorie ice cream.
这种事再也不能让我觉得有启发了。
Like, I don't I don't find that, like, inspiring anymore.
以前我也会关注这些，但完全不觉得那些人有什么不对。
And before I would have, and there's no shame around, like, people who are in that space right now at all.
但我现在更想关注那些分享美食的账号，比如，这真是个很棒的吃法。
But I just shifted to being like, I would rather follow food accounts that are showing, like, oh, this is, like, a really great way.
怎么在餐食里多补充纤维，或者多摄入铁元素。
Built, like, how to get, like, fiber or how to get, like, more iron in your in your meals.
我发现，对食物感兴趣，完全不用盯着数字，也不用只看省钱的食谱，可以有别的方向。
And I was like, oh, can still be interested in food and have it be a different interest and not have it be monitoring the numbers or anything like that or just, like, budget friendly meals or whatever it is.
你懂的吧。
You know?
因为我还是爱我的信仰。
Because I still love my god.
我依然对食物着迷。
I'm still obsessed with food.
我真的超爱食物。
I love food.
这太棒了。
It's awesome.
你知道的。
Know.
我特别喜欢那些发美食短视频、TikTok或者照片的人。
And I love I'm like, anyone that puts up, like, a reel or a TikTok or a photo of, like, what they're eating.
我都想了解个彻底。
Like, I wanna know everything.
所以这份兴趣一点都没减退。
So that interest hasn't gone anywhere.
但我确实开始调整我的关注列表，取关了一些人，转而关注那些完全不在原先话题范围内的账号。
But, yeah, that just diversifying my feed and unfollowing people and then following people who were just outside the scope of even what I was talking about.
比如关注一些讨论科技、性积极话题，或者政治、文化的账号。
So following accounts that were talking about technology or who were sex positive or accounts that were talking about, like politics or culture.
我只是觉得，我得让自己的世界更开阔一点。
I was just like, I just need to broaden my world.
我需要让自己的世界变大，因为现在我的世界太狭小、太压抑了。
Like, I need to make my world bigger because right now my world feels so small and constricted.
我脑子里转来转去的，就只有减肥、节食、宏量营养素、食物里的数字，还有什么时候该停下。
And the only thing that I feel like my brain is on loop about is weight loss and dieting and macros and how many numbers are in food and when to stop it.
我需要关注那些根本不会谈这些事的账号。
Like, and I just needed to follow accounts that were like, we're not talking about that.
对。
Yeah.
那才是最关键的认同。
That was the biggest yeah.
一个巨大的转变。
A big shift.
嘿，Rebel。
Hey, Rebel.
有个小问题想问你。
Quick question for you.
你有没有过不确定什么时候吃、吃多少，或者明明饱了却不知道该怎么停下来的时刻？
Do you ever feel confused about when to eat, how much to eat, or how to stop when you are actually full?
如果你正在点头，那这个正适合你。
If you are nodding your head yes, then this is for you.
我做了一个完全免费的饥饿与饱腹感量表指南，帮你重新连接身体的信号，而不是被饮食规则或外界的‘应该’牵着走。
I created a completely free hunger and fullness scale guide to help you reconnect with your body's cues instead of listening to diet rules or external shoulds.
这关乎建立对身体的信任，让你能练习正念饮食，自信地吃下那些真正让你感觉舒服的食物和分量。
This is about building trust with your body so you can practice mindful eating and gain confidence eating what and how much feels good to you.
在这个指南里，你会了解到饥饿感和真正的饱腹感到底是什么感觉，为什么节食会让你失去对这些信号的感知，如何从今天开始用简单不费力的方式使用这个量表，以及如何借助它来增强对吃多少、吃什么的信心。
Inside this guide, you will learn what your hunger and true fullness actually feel like, why dieting can disconnect you from these cues, how to start using the scale today in a simple, non overwhelming way, and how to use this tool to feel more confident in what and how much you eat.
如果你厌倦了总是怀疑自己，或者依赖死板的饮食计划来决定吃什么、什么时候吃、吃多少，而这些计划长期来看反而适得其反，那这个指南就是为你准备的。
This guide is for you if you are tired of second guessing yourself or relying on rigid plans to tell you what, when, and how much to eat that only backfire in the long run.
如果你想从每一餐开始，慢慢重建与身体的信任，就去 dietculturerebel.com/hungerfullnessscale 下载吧，或者直接点播客笔记里的链接，免费获取。
If you want to start rebuilding trust with your body one meal at a time, head to dietculturerebel.com/hungerfullnessscale, or just click the link in the show notes to download it for free.
没有压力，不要求完美，只是一个温和的下一步，帮你重建与身体的信任，让吃饭变得更轻松、更自然、更愉快。
No pressure, no perfection, just a helpful next step to help you rebuild trust with your body and make eating easier, more intuitive, and more enjoyable.
好了。
Alright.
我们继续回到节目。
Let's get back to the episode.
我想再多聊一点你的经历，因为很多人在接纳身体、尊重身体，或者至少以中立的态度看待身体、修复与食物的关系时，最害怕的就是体重增加。
So I wanna talk about your story just a little bit more because a fear that a lot of people have when it comes to accepting their bodies, respecting their bodies, at least viewing them neutrally, healing their relationships with food, is the fear of weight gain.
我知道你在自己的旅程中，曾经公开提到过自己体重增加了。
And I know you've openly shared that in your journey of doing this, you have gained weight.
那你觉得，有什么方法帮你应对这些变化的吗？
So what would you say is one practice that has helped you cope with these changes?
对。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
问得好。
Great question.
没错。
Yeah.
某种程度上，我反而成了自己最害怕的那种人。
I kind of, in a way, became my biggest fear.
我真的变成了这样。
Like, I did.
你懂的。
You know?
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在成年后的很长一段时间里，我特别害怕自己变成大码身材。
Being plus size was such a fear of mine for so much of my adult life.
我高中那会儿有一阵子是大码身材，后来瘦下来了，之后在成年后的很长一段时间里都不是大码身材。
I had been plus size when I was in high school for a time, and then I wasn't and I wasn't for most of my adult life.
然后疫情来了，我整天不动，结果胖了不少。
Then it was through the pandemic that I was just not moving, and I gained a lot of weight.
那时候，食物成了我最大的依靠和伙伴。
And I was food was my biggest, like, resource and ally in the pandemic.
所以我体重增加了很多，但因为之前做了很多心理准备，所以并没有那么难以承受。
And so I gained a lot of weight, but I had done so much work beforehand that it wasn't as devastating.
但我能理解有些人会想，我就是不想变胖。
But I can understand that people are like, I just don't wanna get fat.
对，这就是他们的想法。
Like, that's the thought.
你懂的？
You know?
咱们干脆把这句话说清楚。
Like, let's just name that.
我不想变胖。
I don't wanna get fat.
别人胖没关系，但我就是不想变胖。
It's okay for other people to get fat, but I don't wanna get fat.
这真的很难理清楚，我们这次也解决不了这个问题。
And that's really that's a really difficult one to unpack, and that's not that's we're not gonna be able to, like, solve that in this episode.
但对我有帮助的是，和体型丰满的人做朋友，做需要身体扫描的冥想，穿着睡衣和内衣坐着，真正去感受自己的身体。
But some of the things that helped me were being friends with fat people and doing meditations that required body scans and actually sitting in my pajamas, my underwear, and actually feeling my body.
真正和自己的身体建立连接，而不是逃避它。
Actually having a connection with my body, not avoiding it.
这不意味着我每天都要照镜子，因为对那些对自己身体感到脆弱和敏感的人来说，照镜子可能太刺激、太暴露了，但你可以不靠镜子去感受和连接自己，去拥抱自己。
And that doesn't mean that I'm necessarily looking in the mirror every day because that can be really confronting and a little bit too exposing for people that are feeling tenderness and vulnerability with what they see, but being able to feel and connect with yourself without a mirror and being able to hold yourself.
我之前说过，我记得自己曾经感受过、拥抱过自己，那时候我觉得，其实我没那么胖。
And what I kind of was saying was I was like, I remember feeling and holding myself, and I'm like, I'm really, like, I'm really not that big.
就算我是，我现在这一刻也挺好的。
And even if I am, like, I'm okay right now in this moment.
我现在真的挺好。
Like, I'm okay right now.
我的身体正在为这一阶段做它该做的事。
My body is doing what it needs to do in order to be in this chapter.
我没事。
I'm okay.
在封控期间，我有很多部分其实并不好受。
And there were lots of parts of me that, like, weren't okay in the in the lockdowns.
我的关节疼得厉害。
Like, my joints were hurting quite a bit.
我的静脉曲张也疼。
My varicose veins were hurting.
我脚底也一直疼。
I was having, like, foot pain.
这一切都源于很多因素，比如压力、封锁、缺乏人际联系、缺乏运动，还有体重增加。
And it all stems from so many things, like the stress, the lockdowns, the no connection with people, not moving, gaining weight.
真的有太多东西堆积在一起了。
Like, there's just so much there.
但我每天都刻意去看那些和我长相相似的人，用心去尊重他们。
But I was really making sure that I was looking at people who look like me every single day and that I was honoring them.
你很漂亮。
You're beautiful.
你值得被爱。
You're worthy.
你很重要。
Like, you matter.
你很重要，你有权利在这里。
You matter, and you deserve to be here.
你的体型根本不重要，因为体型并不能定义你作为一个人的价值。
And it doesn't matter what your size is because your size doesn't have a value on you as a human being.
你的体型并不能定义你的希望、目标和梦想。
And your size doesn't tell you what your hopes and your goals and your dreams are.
它不能说明你不是个好朋友、好伴侣，或者不是个好人。
It doesn't tell you that you're not a good friend or not a good partner or not a good person on this planet.
对。
Mhmm.
我得不断提醒自己这些，因为对胖的恐惧确实会在某个时刻悄悄袭来，让你忍不住想骂人。
And I had to remind myself of all of those things because the fat phobia definitely does creep in at a certain point where you're like, fuck.
真让人沮丧。
This sucks.
别人不会认真对待你，也不会爱你。
Like, people aren't gonna take me seriously or they're not going to love me.
我再也不可能被爱了。
I'm not gonna be lovable anymore.
我觉得正视这一点很重要——我们内心都有那个批判的声音，我们能不能去面对那个阴影中的自己？
And I think honoring that, like, we have that critical part in us and, like, can we turn to that shadow self?
我们能不能转向那个部分，对自己说：我听见你了。
Can we turn to that part and be like, I hear you.
那不是真的，但我听见你了。
That's not true, but I hear you.
我不会把你推开，我会抱着你，我接受这个身体。
And I'm not gonna push you away and I'm gonna hold you and I'm okay in this body.
我们身上只是多了一些细胞而已。
Like, we have some extra cells on us.
我有点 cellulite，那又怎样？
What I got a little bit of cellulite.
我好像不配再这样待在这里了。
I'm not allowed to, like, be here anymore.
这到底是什么意思？
Like, what is that?
你懂的吧。
You know?
是的
Yeah.
我照样能去海滩。
Like, I can still go to the beach.
我照样能穿泳装好看。
I can still, like, rock a bathing suit.
我照样能被爱。
I can still be loved.
我爱我自己。
I love myself.
是通过身体冥想才做到的。
And it was like through the body meditations.
是通过关注胖人做到的。
It was through following fat people.
是通过不再逃避自己的身体才做到的。
It was through making sure that I wasn't avoiding my body.
比如，去接纳那些当你不想照镜子时涌上来的感受。
Like, honoring those feelings that come up with being like, I really don't wanna look in the mirror.
我真的不想。
Like, I don't.
就是很难受。
I just it's it's hard.
也许可以试试暴露疗法，在治疗中慢慢梳理这些情绪，确保你身边有一群能倾诉的人。
And maybe having some exposure therapy with that, unpacking it in therapy, making sure that you have, like, a community of people that you can talk to.
别一个人闷在脑子里，把自己隔绝起来。
Like, don't live so isolated and alone in your head.
把那些想法说出来。
Like, get those thoughts out.
但对一些正在康复的人来说，现实就是他们最终可能会保持丰满、大码、曲线型，或者怎么说都行。
But for some people in recovery, like, that is the reality is that they will end up being fat or plus size or curvy or fluffy or whatever, however we wanna call it.
这对有些人来说，可能会非常打击人。
And it can be devastating for some people.
真的，这事儿特别吓人。
Like, it is really it can be really scary.
恐惧并不一定代表事实真的会那样。
And a fear doesn't necessarily mean that, like, that it's a reality.
你害怕变胖，是因为觉得没人会爱你，觉得自己不够好，但这些想法未必是真的。
Fear just that you're scared of getting fat because you're not gonna be loved or you're not gonna be worthy or whatever your mind tells you, that's not necessarily real.
害怕是真实的感受，但那不是现实。
It's scary and that's sensation, but that's not reality.
是啊，确实如此。
And it yeah.
拥有一整套应对方法，真的特别重要。
Like, having a big toolkit to be able to handle it is really important.
太重要了。
So important.
你刚才说的让我想到，你最后竟然活成了自己的恐惧。
What stood out to me with what you said is that you became your fear.
你的身体真的长成了你害怕的样子，但你依然在好好生活。
Like, your your body grew into the size that you feared, and you are still living your life.
就像你自己说的，你还是会去海边。
Just like you said, you're going to the beach.
你照样能穿泳衣。
You can still wear a bathing suit.
你还在社交媒体上发帖，激励着其他人。
You're still posting on social media and inspiring other people.
你结识了那些身材更丰满的朋友。
You've made friends with people who live in bigger bodies.
尽管你的身体长成了你最害怕的样子，你还是做了这么多了不起的事。
You've done all of these amazing things even though your body grew into the size that you feared.
是的。
Yeah.
当然了。
Big time.
还有，对不起。
And one of sorry.
另一件我觉得特别有帮助的事是——不是每个人都会喜欢，因为这太硬核了——我经常看一些关于太空的内容，总在想我们只是漂浮在宇宙空无一物之处的一颗普通行星上。
One of the other things that I find really helpful is, like and not everybody is going to like this because it's extremely nerdy, but I watch a lot of stuff about space, and I think a lot about the fact that we're on a random planet floating in the middle of nowhere.
说真的，这一切其实都没那么重要。
Like, none of this actually matters.
确实如此。
It's so true.
真的，这一切都不重要。
None of it actually matters.
这可能会让人觉得有点存在主义，甚至有点怪，不是每个人都愿意这样想，因为它会勾起各种奇怪的情绪。
And that can be like a you know, not everybody wants to, like, think outside like that because it can be a bit existential and, like, odd, and it can bring up all of these weird feelings.
但我并不觉得人们就应该回避这些奇怪的感觉。
But I don't think necessarily that people should avoid those weird feelings.
我觉得对。
I think Yeah.
意识到我脑子里想的、身体里发生的、生活中经历的、社区里的事、国家层面的问题，乃至整个世界，都只是宇宙中微不足道的一小部分。
Recognizing that we're at a very what goes on in my head, what goes on in my body, what goes on in my life, what goes on in my community, and then in my country, and then in my world is like, that is such a a small fragment of the universe.
我们能不能从宇宙的尺度来看看，其实这些事儿根本没那么重要？
Like, can we have, like, a cosmological perspective of the fact that, like, none of this shit matters?
这一切其实特别温和，也特别荒谬。
It is so benign and, like, it's so silly.
我们能不能笑一笑，好好享受此刻——我清醒着，感知着这一切，就在这段时间、这个地点。
And can we not, like, laugh a little bit and just, like, revel in the fact that at this place in time, I'm conscious and I'm aware of all of this.
我却还在担心，别人会因为我身上有妊娠纹、我是16码而不是6码，就不爱我。
And I'm having this, like, fear that people aren't gonna love me because I have stretch marks or because I'm a size sixteen, not a size six.
真的吗？
Like, really?
我这个人，就由这些来定义？
Is that, like, that's what I'm defined by?
当然不是，我们绝不是被这些定义的。
Like, of course, we're not defined by that.
没错，就是这样。
And hell, yeah.
我要去海边。
I'm going to the beach.
我要去海边。
I'm going to the beach.
我要环游世界。
I am traveling the world.
我在约会，也有性生活。
I am dating and having sex.
现在没有，因为我最近在禁欲。
Not right now because I'm actually on a no man diet.
但总的来说，我的身体不会拖我的后腿。
But in general, it's like my body is not going to hold me back.
我说这话时也带着对残障的视角，毕竟我清楚，身体确实会带来实实在在的障碍。
And I say that with, like, also the disability lens because, like, of course, like, I understand that, like, bodies literally do, of course, absolutely have barriers to them.
所以我真的想尊重这一点。
So I I wanna absolutely honor that.
我的身体不会让我觉得自己不配拥有什么。
And my body doesn't have it's not going to limit me on what I feel like I'm worthy of.
真正重要的是，我的身体不会定义我对自己是谁的看法。
That's what that's what that is is that my body is not going to limit my perception of who I am.
我不仅仅是我的身体。
I am not my body.
我远比这要丰富得多。
I am so much more than that.
我们每个人都是复杂的整体。
Like, we all contain multitudes.
有些人会胖，有些人会稍微胖一点，有些人胖了之后又会瘦下来。
And some people are gonna get fat, and some people are going to get a little fat, and some people are gonna get fat, and then they're not gonna be fat.
我们的身体在一生中本来就会有起伏，它就是它该有的样子，但绝不能就此定义你是谁。
Like, it's like our bodies are just gonna fluctuate in our life, and they're gonna be whatever they're gonna be, and it's not gonna be the entire definition of who you are.
我特别喜欢这个观点，听的时候还忍不住笑了，但那是开心的笑，因为这让我意识到，我们心里那些阻碍自己的恐惧，其实小得微不足道。
I love that perspective, and it did make me laugh, but in a good way because it really I mean, it it shows how, like, miniscule some of these fears are that we have that hold us back from so much in life.
我敢打赌，现在一定有不少听众被你深深鼓舞了，不过我也想换个角度，稍微挑个刺。
And I bet you we have listeners right now who are so inspired, but I also wanna play a little bit of devil's advocate.
我有个私人问题想问你，你愿意回答就回答，不回答也没关系，但你的经历真的能给很多人力量。
And I have a personal question for you, so you can answer it if you want or not answer it, but people can get inspired from what you said.
但说到底，我们也是普通人。
But then we're also human.
他们可能会想：我还是不敢把自己暴露在别人面前。
So they might be like, well, I'm still worried about putting myself out there.
比如，很多人胖了之后，最不想做的就是出门、去健身房、穿泳衣去海滩，或者在别人面前吃东西，可你偏偏就做到了。
Like, when people gain weight, the one thing they don't wanna do is put themselves out there or go to the gym or go to the beach and wear a bathing suit or eat certain things in front of other people, but you clearly have put yourself out there.
你发社交媒体，展示自己的身体，做这些事，我知道你偶尔也会收到一些负面评论。
You post on social media, you show your body, you do all of these things, and I know because you post about it that you do get negative comments from time to time.
所以我很想知道。
So I'm curious.
你这么坦诚、这么公开、这么显眼地活着，你觉得整体上对你来说是好事还是坏事？
Being so upfront about there, being so out there, being so visible, do you think this has been overall good or bad for you?
对啊。
Mhmm.
是的。
Yeah.
这个问题问得真好，邦妮。
Great question, Bonnie.
你总是能问出这么棒的问题。
Always with the great questions.
能认识你真好。
It's so nice meet you.
没错。
Yeah.
总的来说，好处远远多于坏处。
It has been overwhelmingly good.
当然。
Of course.
是的。
Yeah.
跟那些负面评论比起来，真的微不足道。
The negative comments are so small in comparison.
不过，对于那些想了解一些心理学知识的人来说，我们的心理机制里天生就有一种负面偏见。就算有一百条正面评论，只要有一条负面的，那种分量感往往比那一百条正面的加起来还要重。
However, for people who want a little bit of, like, psychoeducation, we have a negativity bias kind of, like, built into our psychology where we can have nine we can have a 100 positive comments, and then one negative one feels like it's the weight of the the 100 positive ones.
这是因为，怎么说呢，我们是靠生存本能活着的物种。
And that's due to the fact that, like, we're a survival species.
就是说，我们会先注意到负面的东西，因为我们得先判断它是不是威胁。
Like, we notice the negative stuff first because we have to determine whether or not it's a threat.
这东西会不会伤害我？
Is this thing going to hurt me?
还是说它不会伤害我？
Is it not going to hurt me?
我安全吗？
Am I safe?
所以负面的东西看起来比正面的更重，也显得比那些正面评论真实得多。
And so it feels like the negative stuff can outweigh the positive stuff, and it can feel so much more real than the than the positivity comments.
是的。
Yeah.
当你在培养自我觉察的时候，其实也在培养正念。
And you have again, like, when you're cultivating self awareness, you're also cultivating mindfulness.
你是在锻炼一种觉察的能力。
Like, you're developing a skill of noticing.
当你能做到这一点，就能训练自己的大脑更快地恢复过来，保持韧性——比如，有人说了很难听的话，我也能挺过去。
And when you are able to do that, you're able to train your mind to come back quicker and have that resiliency of, okay, this person I mean, I get I can get really terrible things.
我也不太清楚。
I don't even know.
我真说不准。
Like, I don't even know.
有些评论根本谈不上政治正确，连我在这档播客里都不敢说这种话。
There's some of them that are so not even politically correct or even, like, close to what I could say on this podcast.
但其实，不会的。
But, like, no.
可能就是说你像头鲸鱼这类的话。
Just maybe something like you're a whale.
根本不会有男人爱你。
Like, no man will ever love you.
你在这儿干嘛呢？
What are you doing on here?
你不知道自己快死了吗？
Don't you know that you're gonna die soon?
你还是去检查一下吧，看你这状态，好像生病了。
Go check-in with your doctor because it looks like you have an illness.
记得继续吃你那花生酱啊。
Make sure that you keep eating all of that peanut butter.
我的意思是，真的有太多东西了，太多了。
Like, there's, like, so much there's there's yeah.
对。
Yeah.
这些想法其实很多人都有过。
Like, those are things that people have thought.
我以前也真的这样想过自己。
And I have literally thought all of those things before about myself.
没人会说出我从来没对自己说过的话，也没人会像我那样讨厌自己。
Like, no one is going to say something that I haven't said about myself before, and no one is going to hate me the way that I have hated myself.
在这方面，我最在行。
I'm the champion at that.
我就是这方面的专家。
I'm the expert in that.
我清楚自己所有的所谓缺点。
I know all of my, quote, unquote, flaws.
我清楚自己的所有缺点和软肋。
I know all of my weaknesses and my weak points.
所以如果那个人觉得他能拿这个说事，我就回一句：行吧。
And so if that person thinks that they have anything on that, I'm like, k.
在这事儿上，我肯定比你更在行。
I'm gonna I'm gonna I'll outwin you on this.
至于那些负面评论，帮我挺过来的是——不是每个人都能做到，但我真的得去跟这些人聊聊。
And what has helped me in terms of the negative comments is and not that everybody would have capacity to do this, but I actually have to go and talk to these people.
不总是这样，但我得试着去理解他们。
Not always, but I have to try to humanize them.
我得努力让他们在我眼里变得可以理解，不然我就恨他们。
I have to try to make them understandable to me or else I hate them.
我没法活在一个充满仇恨的世界里。
And I can't live in a world where I hate more shit.
我真的做不到。
I just can't.
这种事到处都是。
There's just so much of that to go around.
所以当我跟他们说话，打招呼说：嘿。
So when I talk to them and I say, hey.
你最近怎么样？
How are you?
话题一下子就缓和了。
It diffuses the conversation pretty quickly.
十次里有九次，他们都会向我道歉。
And nine times out of 10, I get an apology.
真没想到。
Wow.
但不是每个人都会遇到这种情况，毕竟你可能会遇到一些人，比如有听众或者朋友说：我今天要去海边，结果一个陌生人跑来骂他胖，或者家人、伴侣直接问：你怎么穿比基尼？
And that's not gonna be like that for everybody because you might have someone of course, like, we will have a listener or a friend who's like, I'm gonna go to the beach today, and then some stranger calls them fat or their parent calls them fat or their partner is just like, why are you wearing a two piece?
或者：你怎么穿成这样？怎么胖了这么多？
Or how come you're wearing something or you've gained so much weight?
你哪来的自信穿成这样？
Why do you have confidence to wear that?
所以我想说的是，每个人的情况真的天差地别。
And so I want to honor that this is, of course, so vastly different for everybody.
想想看，那个人的世界得多狭隘啊，明明看到的是一个如此光彩照人、敢于尝试、享受生活的人，他却偏偏只盯着你的身材——你正在感受沙滩、阳光、微风，或者吃着冰淇淋，这些多美好的瞬间，他却只看到你的体型。
And, wow, imagine how small that person's world is to say that, that instead of seeing someone who is just so beautiful in their glory, who's taking a chance, who's enjoying themselves, who's living in this incredible universe on this planet at this time that's enjoying the sand or the sun or the wind or like an ice cream or whatever it is that they narrow their focus down to your size.
你想想，他脑子里到底在想些什么？
Like, imagine the headspace that they're living in.
我真替他感到难过。
I feel sorry for them.
他活在一个没有深度、没有广度的世界里。
They don't live with the depth or the scope that we do.
我真希望能让那个人也看到这样的世界。
And wow, I would love to bring them into that.
我真想让他明白，我不仅仅是一个体型。
I would love to let them know that, like, I'm not just my size.
这样挺好。
Like, that's fine.
你怎么想都行。
You can think of whatever you want.
你怎么看待这件事、怎么看我的身体，都随你。
You're free to think about this and my body however you want.
但我自己不是这么看自己的。
But I don't think of me that way.
我跟那不一样。
I'm different.
我不会用你的眼光来定义自己。
I'm not gonna think about me the way that you think about me.
能保持真实的自我，同时也能依靠姐妹情谊或者社群的支持。
And being able to remain close to yourself and also that tool of sisterhood or community.
对。
Yes.
我们要确保有这种支持，毕竟人不是孤立存在的。
Making sure that we have that support because we don't live in isolation.
我们本来就是社会性动物。
We are a social species.
要主动去联系身边的人。
Making sure that we reach out to people.
嘿。
Hey.
我爸妈说过一句话。
Like, my parent said something.
我伴侣也说过一些话。
My partner said something.
有个陌生人对我评头论足。
A stranger said something about me.
有人提醒你那些你其实知道、但又特别需要听进去的话，因为我们每个人都需要这样的肯定。
And having people reaffirm to you what you know but what you need to hear because we all need to hear those things.
不是每个人都有二十万、三十万粉丝天天给你点赞支持。
Not everybody has 200,000, 300,000 people following them that are just like, yes.
对。
Yes.
加油，女王！
Go queen.
加油，女王！
Go queen.
不是人人都有这种阵仗，但我们确实需要从身边的人那里听到类似的肯定。
Like, not everybody has that, but we actually do need to hear the echoes of that in our life from our community.
所以，去找那样的支持吧。
So find that support.
去找那样的群体。
Find that community.
记得把这些人当成助力，同时也要成为他们的助力。
Make sure that you use those people as tools to help you and help be a tool to them as well.
是的。
Yeah.
而且要帮助自己建立自信，让自己更有力量。
And to help, like, forge that self confidence and help yourself to be empowered.
但我真的替那些只根据体型评判他人、给别人的身材贴上健康标签，或者忍不住发恶意评论的人感到难过。
But I just I feel really bad for people who only look at humans for the size of their body or who put a health status on someone's body or for people who feel the need to write mean comments.
你想想，你要是真对别人说出这种话，心里得有多难受。
Like, imagine actually what it would take for you to say that to someone and imagine how upset you would feel afterwards.
想象一下，邦妮，如果你现在坐在这儿，心里想：天哪，你怎么能发这种东西。
Imagine if, Bonnie, if you sat here right now and you were like, ugh, I cannot believe you post that stuff.
这真的让我觉得恶心。
That's really disgusting to me.
说完这种话，我们自己都会感到强烈的反感。
Like, we would feel such a revulsion after saying that.
其实别人也有这种感觉，只是他们没意识到罢了。
And other people do too, but they're not in touch with it.
他们就是根本感受不到这一点。
Like, they're they're just not in touch with it.
我得说，我真的为他们感到难过。
And I have to say, like, I feel bad for them.
我是真心这么觉得。
Like, I really do.
所以，再说一遍，虽然啰嗦了点，但我们要增强社区的凝聚力，把他们当人看，让他们明白自己活在一个极其狭隘的世界里。
So, again, long winded, but community empowerment, rehumanizing them, making sure that we're recognizing that they're living in a very narrow minded limited scope of the world.
是的。
Yeah.
是啰嗦了点，但对很多人来说，这话非听不可。
Long winded, but very much needed to hear for so many people.
要退一步，把别人当人看，再对他们心生怜悯，这确实不容易。
It can be hard to take that step back and humanize people, and then have compassion for them, and be like, you know what?
如果我一辈子都那样活着，那真的太可悲了。
It would actually be really sad to live my life that way.
你说了很多特别棒的话，但我最想强调的是，我们确实可以勇敢地展现自己，哪怕会引来不想要的评论和别人的评判。
And you said so many amazing things, but the one thing that I really pulled from what you said is that the reality is we can put ourselves out there, and we can, you know, risk getting unwanted comments, getting judgments from other people.
归根结底，把自己展露出来，依然是我们能为自己做的最好的事之一。
And at the end of the day, we can still find that putting ourselves out there is one of the best things that we could do for ourselves.
我希望听众能好好想想这一点，因为当我们面对体重增加时，最自然的反应往往是把自己藏起来。
And I hope that the listener can let that sink in because, again, when we deal with weight gain, like, the natural thing to do is try and ourselves.
但现实是，想要过上充实的生活，关键就在于勇敢地走出去。
But the reality is to live a fulfilling life, it's putting yourself out there.
比如晒太阳、去海边、吃冰淇淋，做所有真正让你开心的事。
Like, it's being outside in the sun, going to the beach, eating the ice cream, doing all of the things that are really enjoyable to you.
对。
Yes.
你可能会面临别人的评判，这并不意味着这件事总是容易的，那些评论本就不该存在。
You risk maybe potential judgments from other people, and it doesn't mean that it's always easy, and those comments should never ever exist.
可惜的是，它们确实存在。
They do, unfortunately.
你依然可以过上非常精彩的生活，从勇敢做自己中找到价值。
And you can still live a really great life and find value from putting yourself out there.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
说得太好了。
So well said.
我很感谢你，邦妮，你坦诚面对现实，不会跟我们讲一些虚构的美好故事。
I really appreciate the fact that, Bonnie, you honor the reality that you're like, we're not just gonna tell you that we're living in some made up world.
我们说的是，你确实可以走出去做这些事，一切都会很顺利，但事实是，生活并不总是这样。
We're like, yeah, you can go out do this, everything's gonna be totally fine because the fact of the matter is that we're not.
你会遇到阻力，但这种阻力，就跟我们在内心、在心理、在疗愈过程中遇到的一模一样——我们心里也有那个批评者。
We're gonna bump up against that resistance, but it's the exact same way that we bump up against that resistance inside of our own minds and inside of our own psyche and inside of our own healing journeys where it's like we also have those inner critics.
我们心里也住着那些评判者、批评者，一直在说那些伤人的话。
We also have those those those judges or critics that live inside of us that are saying those mean things.
这些东西确实存在于外部世界。
That stuff exists on the outside world.
你越是学会面对自己的内心，处理那些内在的批评者和审判者，你就越能用同样的方式应对外面的人。
And the more that you decide to navigate your internal world and the ways that you decide to deal with those those internal critics or those internal judges is the same way that you're gonna deal with the people on the outside.
说得太对了。
So true.
对吧？
Right?
你会用同情的眼光看待他们。
Like, you're gonna see them with compassion.
你会主动靠近他们，然后说：我很欣赏你这么脚踏实地，没有一味地告诉你一切都会好起来，因为现实就是这么艰难，也并不总是顺心如意。
You're gonna turn toward them, and you're gonna say, like so I really appreciate the fact that you're pretty rooted in reality with that and that you're not just trying to offer up some, like, fluffy this everything will be totally fine because it's it's hard, and and it's not always totally fine.
是的。
Yeah.
我知道有些人会说，没人会评判你。
I know some people will say, well, no one's gonna judge you.
没人会说这些话，相信这一点，感觉上确实挺舒服的。
No one's gonna say these things, and it can feel good, I think, to to believe that.
但现实是，这种情况并不总是会发生。
But the reality is that's that that doesn't always happen.
要是真能这样，那当然再好不过了。
I mean, it'd be great if it did.
没错。
So Yeah.
肯齐，你刚才说的每一句话都特别有帮助。
Everything you have said, Kenzie, has been really, really helpful.
我知道现在的听众们真的从中受益匪浅。
I know that the listener right now is truly benefiting from it.
在结束之前，我还想问你最后一个问题：如果要你选一句话，让听众记住，你会说什么？
I have one more question that I'd like to ask you as we close, and that is if there's one thing that you want the listener to remember.
关于建立积极的身材观，你最想让他们记住的是什么？
When it comes to having a positive body image, what would that be?
你不可能总是对自己身体感到积极。
That you're not always gonna have a positive body image.
我喜欢这一点。
I love that.
这可能是第一个冒出来的想法，也是最简单的一点。
That's probably the first thing that comes up and that it's the simplest thing.
对。
Yeah.
生活更像一个螺旋，不是单纯地上升或下降，而是一条曲折的线。
Like, life is more like a spiral than it is a spiral that's going up or going down than it is a linear straight line up.
积极的身体感受会起伏，有时下降，有时上升，有时倒退，然后你又突然往前冲，完全不是直线进展。
And the positive body image is gonna go, and then it's gonna go down, and then it's gonna go up, and it's gonna go back, and then you're gonna, like, catapult yourself forward, and it's extremely nonlinear.
拥有积极的身体形象，意味着你也要接受自己有时会感到消极。
And that to have positive body image is to accept the fact that you're also gonna have negative body image days as well.
我觉得这是个很好的收尾，也提醒我们重新思考什么是真正的积极身体形象。
I think that's such a great note to end on and a great reminder to change our expectation of what positive body image is.
关键不在于你永远不会遇到难熬的日子、困境或者别人那些让人不舒服的评价，而是学会如何应对这些情况，顺应生活中必然会出现的起伏，毕竟我们都要在这世上生活，都要有身体。
It's not the lack of you not experiencing hard days, hardships, unwanted comments from other people, but it's learning how to manage them, and go with the ebbs and flows that inevitably come with living on this world and a body.
对。
Yeah.
说得太好了。
So well said.
非常感谢你，肯齐。
Well, thank you so much again, Kenzie.
今天和你聊天真的特别愉快。
This was really, really wonderful talking to you today.
是的。
Yeah.
和你聊天也很开心。
Lovely talking to you too.
非常感谢你邀请我。
Thank you so much for having me.
好了，Rebel。
Alright, Rebel.
我可以告诉你，再次听Kenzie的分享，正是我此刻最需要的，也希望你听完后能收获一些真正有意义的感悟。
I can tell you that listening to Kenzie again was exactly what I needed, and I hope that you are walking away with a few meaningful takeaways too.
她讲的每一点我都特别喜欢，但最让我印象深刻的是，她说自己已经走了五年，可依然远没达到五年、十年，甚至二十年后该有的样子。
I loved everything she shared, but one thing that really stood out to me was when she said that she is five years into this journey, yet she is still nowhere where she'll be in another five, ten, or twenty years.
她还提到，虽然偶尔还是会有对身体不满意的日子，但已经远不如从前那么糟糕了，我觉得这种视角特别有力量。
She also shared that while body image days still happen, they are nowhere near as low as they used to be, and I think that perspective is so powerful.
因为改善身体形象没有终点，你和自己的身体之间的关系，是你一生中最长久的关系。
Because improving your body image does not have a final destination or endpoint, your relationship with your body is the longest relationship you'll ever have.
正因如此，接受起伏波动是常态，显得尤为重要。
And because of that, I think it's so important to embrace the reality that ups and downs are normal.
困难的日子难免会出现，但这并不意味着情况没有好转。
Hard days will happen, but that doesn't mean things are not getting better.
身体形象的疗愈，可能就是那些低落的日子越来越少。
Body image healing can look like having fewer low body image days.
它可能表现为那些艰难的日子没那么强烈了，没那么让人耗尽精力了，持续的时间也没以前那么长了。
It can look like those hard days feeling less intense, less consuming, and not lasting as long as they once did.
对我来说，这种看待身体形象成长的方式既真实又充满希望——而不是盲目追求那种不切实际的幻想，以为某天你会突然无时无刻不爱自己的身体，从此再也不会有半点负面想法。
To me, that is such a realistic and hopeful way to view body image work instead of chasing the false expectation that one day you'll magically love your body twenty four seven and never have another negative thought about it.
可惜的是，对大多数人来说，那种想法根本不现实。
That simply, unfortunately, is not realistic for most people.
所以如果你今天感觉很吃力，别忘了肯齐说过的话，记住这个真相。
So if things feel hard today, remember what Kenzie said and hold on to this truth.
随着时间推移，情况真的会变好，尤其是当你持续吸收那些支持疗愈、成长和信任身体的信息时，就像你今天通过收听这期节目所做的那样。
Things can get better over time, especially when you continue taking in messages that support healing, growth, and body trust just like you did today by listening to this episode.
如果这期节目对你有帮助，欢迎给节目打五星评分并留下评论。
If this episode helped you, support the show by leaving a five star rating and review.
谁知道呢？
Who knows?
现在可能正有个人被这个世界上无处不在的‘瘦才是美’的观念压得喘不过气，觉得自己身体有问题，而他/她其实特别需要听到这段话。
There could be someone out there right now feeling weighed down by the thin is in messaging that is so prevalent in our world, feeling like their body is the problem who actually really needs to hear this message.
你的支持能帮助更多人了解到这个播客，最终找到一种更温和、更友善的方式来对待饮食和自己的身体。
Your support makes it more likely that they can learn about this podcast and ultimately discover a different kinder way to approach eating in their body.
你可以在苹果播客上留下五星评分和评论，或者在 Spotify 上给个五星评分，并留言告诉我今天听完后哪些地方最打动你。
You can leave a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or a five star rating on Spotify with a comment letting me know what stood out to you after you listened today.
和往常一样，我为你能在这里、为自己争取一段更健康的食物与身体关系感到骄傲。
As always, I'm proud of you for being here and for giving yourself the gift of a better relationship with food and your body.
我真的很期待下一次再和你聊天。
I can't wait to chat with you again next time.
在那之前，我是你的主持人，也是你的同伴，Bon。
Until then, I'm your host and fellow rebel, Bon.
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