迈克尔·奥夫里希特：从偶然的击剑手到哥伦比亚大学冠军教练 | 直接淘汰 第19集

这一切马上就会说到，对吧？

And this is gonna get to that all in moment, right?

是的。

Yeah.

来纽约体育俱乐部吧。

You know, come to the New York Athletic Club.

所以，我走进纽约体育俱乐部时，听到一些你们和其他人提到纽约体育俱乐部时说的话。

So, I walk into the New York Athletic Club and I hear, I think, when some of you guys and some of the other people talk about New York Athletic.

我当时进去的时候，那里有约翰·诺马尔、克里斯·奥洛克林、乔·索科洛夫、吉姆·卡彭特、迈尔斯·菲利普斯、布鲁斯·朱根，还有一些年轻小伙子，比如本·阿特金斯和丹·夏尔克，我们还可以继续列下去。

I walk in, at that time, it was John Normale, Chris O'Loughlin, this guy Joe Sokoloff, Jim Carpenter, Miles Phillips, Bruce Jugan, and then some of these young guys like Ben Atkins and this other guy, Dan Charlec, and we can keep going on.

对吧？

Right?

哇，真是令人惊叹。

It's like, wow.

你知道，我觉得自己就像置身奥运会，拥有这么棒的机会，我要好好把握，看看自己能做些什么。

You know, so I felt like that was I'm at the Olympics and I have this great opportunity and let me let me see what I can do.

所以，我从高中最后一名、未能从预赛出线，到大学一年级时在青少年奥运会上首次进入前八名。

So, went from last, well, last, but not making out of the pools, my senior high school to making my first top eight at the Junior Olympics, my freshman year in college.

在进入前八名后，我想，是的，在这样的环境中，有纽约大学、纽约体育俱乐部以及我自身渴望做到最好的动力支持着我。

So, after I made the top eight, I was like, yeah, you know, with this environment, right, and with these people that are supporting me, both NYU, New York Athletic Club and sort of my my hunger to be as good as I can get.

于是我对自己说，好吧，我一定要全力以赴。

I was like, alright, I'm really gonna try.

然后接下来那个夏天的全国锦标赛，也就是我们现在所说的20项赛事，当时被称为19岁以下全国锦标赛。

And then the next summer nationals at the time, like now we call it the 20 event.

当时，那是19岁以下全国锦标赛。

At the time, was like the under nineteen national championships.

我获得了第二名。

I finished second.

于是我想，哇，我真是状态正佳。

And so I was like, wow, you know, I'm I'm on a roll here.

接着，我首次在一级联赛中进入前24名。

And then I made my first top 24 in the division one.

我记得我在泳池赛中赢了约翰·诺迈尔，但他在我参加的跳台赛中赢了我。

And I remember because like I beat John Normaille on the pools but then he beat me in the d.

我从未在跳台赛中赢过约翰·诺迈尔。

I never beat John Normaille on the d.

对吧？

Right?

所以那是我第二个全身心投入的时刻。

And so that's like my second like all in moment.

然后我一直觉得，是啊，击剑真棒，击剑真棒，我不想再进一步了。

And then it was just always like, yeah, you know fencing is great, fencing, fencing is great and I don't want to go any further.

我想让你引导这段对话，但当我身处纽约、处在那样的环境中时，我想：让我们看看能走多远吧，因为我真的很喜欢这项运动。

I want you to guide this conversation but I feel when I was in New York with that environment I was like, yeah, let's see how far we can take it because I really like the sport.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

谢谢分享。

Thanks for sharing.

不。

No.

我觉得我也有过类似的经历，你知道的，但情况不一样。

And I feel like like I've had a similar experience, you know, it's different.

我没在纽约上大学，但就是遇到乔治·梅森的那次经历。

I didn't go to college in New York, but just that experience of meeting George Mason

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后来纽约训练，和那些资深选手一起训练，之前我在小俱乐部里只有几个人练习防守，突然间你就置身于像奥运会一样的环境。

And then coming and training in New York and having these senior guys in a practice from going from, you know, my small club where I had a couple people defense, and then all of a sudden you're with it's like the Olympics.

你知道的？

You know?

你有这么多资深选手一直在观察和研究技术，而我这次来访问后，第一次参加了雷皮亚日比赛。

You have all these senior guys who've been watching metal and then I made my first time in Repichage right after I visited here.

所以，再次说，我们每个人所经历的相似之处和旅程真的很有趣。

So again, it's funny the parallels and the journeys that we all go on.

不过，听到你实现了那个梦想，真是太好了。

But no, that's great to hear that you achieved that dream.

你达成了那个目标，并且从中学到了更多。

You met that checkpoint and you were able to harvest more fruits from that.

不仅仅是完成任务就完事了，你还要充分利用这个机会，听起来你确实做到了。

Not enough just to check it off the list, but then you have to make the most of that opportunity and it sounds like you were able to.

没错。

Right.

我知道这很有趣。

I know it was fun.

是的。

Yeah.

它似乎一直都很有趣。

It it continues to be fun, it seems.

我的意思是，自从我开始参加17岁及以下级别的击剑比赛以来，那些更正式的全国性赛事就一直在我记忆中。

I mean, I think that ever since I started fencing at the, I wanna say, 17 and under level, it's like the more serious national competitions.

我觉得你在我的击剑记忆里一直是个很显眼的人物。

I think you've been a prominent face in my memory of fencing.

所以看到你从一个充满热情的孩子，成长为一个虽然还是孩子但已是大学生的人。

So seeing that you went from an eager kid to then an eager, still a kid, but a college student.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

然后慢慢步入成年。

And slowly seasoning into, you know, adulthood.

等斯蒂芬和我开始接触击剑的时候，你大概已经三十多岁、快四十岁了。

And then by the time Stephen and I came around, you're in your I would say forties at that point, like thirties, forties, late thirties, early forties around the time that we're getting into it.

你正是在我们开始考虑上大学的时候，开始了你的NCAA教练生涯。

You're starting your NCAA coaching career right around the time that we're becoming of age to start thinking about college.

而如今，多年过去，你依然深度参与击剑运动，这项运动也持续在发展。

And then here we are years later, and you know, you're still very involved in fencing and it's continuing to evolve.

我觉得看到这项运动不仅仅是以运动员的身份，而是以运动精神引导你的人生旅程，这真的很棒。

And I think it's cool to see the sport not necessarily just as a competitor, but just the the spirit of the sport guide you along your journey.

我想问一个我们计划外的问题：你最长有多久完全离开了这项运动？如果有过的话。

I guess a question that I have outside of our planned questions is what is the longest amount of time that you spent away from the sport in its entirety, if at all?

你是说你曾经停止击剑，然后有一段很长的间隔才重新从事与击剑相关的事情，还是说这是一段无缝衔接、你一直沿着这条路走过来的过程？

You know, whether it's I stopped fencing and then there was a big break before I started doing other things really fencing related or was it a seamless transition and then you've continued along that path?

因为我知道有一段时间你担任纽约体育俱乐部的主席，但不再是哥伦比亚大学击剑队的主教练。

Because I know there was a period in time where you were a chairman of New York Athletic Club but not the Columbia fencing head coach.

据我了解，在那段时间里，你做了其他事情，对吧？

During that period of time from my understanding you were doing something else, right?

是的，那我来衔接一下。

Yeah, so here I'll bridge

它。

it.

不，这样很好。

No, is good.

好吧，大学毕业后，有些人可能知道，有些人可能不知道这一点。

Alright, so after college and some people might or might not know this about me.

我从纽约大学斯特恩商学院本科毕业，当时以为自己会进入营销行业。

So, graduated from NYU Stern School of Business undergrad and I thought I was going to go into marketing.

我的梦想是参加奥运会。

And my dream was to make the Olympics.

我的意思是，那是一个梦想，大多数竞技击剑运动员都有这样的梦想。

I mean that was a dream and most competitive fencers that is a dream.

所以我当时的目标是1996年奥运会，你知道，我没成功。

So I was shooting for the nineteen ninety six Olympics, you know, I didn't make it.

我当时是有竞争力的。

I was I was competitive.

我经常排在前15名，有时甚至进入前10名，但离前四名还差得远。

I was kinda up there in the top 15, sometimes even top 10, but it's far from the top four.

我觉得我已经尽了全力，但我一直努力追求的，是能单纯地去击剑，这就是我的愿望。

I feel I gave it my best but one of the things that I always tried like my dream was always like, wish I could just fence.

为什么我非得工作不可？

Like why do I have to work?

我一直都觉得，这简直是家常便饭。

Like I know it was always like It's daily conversation.

对啊。

Right.

我真希望就能一直练剑，就只是练剑。

Like I wish I could just fence, I could just fence.

我其实有一个绝佳的机会，是关于一家击剑公司。

I actually had this great opportunity of a fencing company.

有一家叫Blade击剑装备的公司。

There's a fencing company called Blade Fencing Equipment.

大多数人根本不知道它。

Most people don't know about it.

是的。

No.

是的

Yeah.

他们是击剑用的沙袋。

They're the fencing bags.

那可能是那个和剑道垫使用寿命更长的原因。

That's probably the thing that's that and the strips lasted longer.

好的。

Alright.

所以，Blade Fencing Equipment 在80年代甚至90年代都是最大的击剑装备供应商。

So, Blade Fencing Equipment was the largest fencing equipment supplier back in the 90s, even in the 80s.

很多不同的公司都源自 Blade。

And a lot of different companies came from that, from Blade.

Blue Gauntlet 就是从 Blade 分出来的，一位 Blade 的员工创立了 Blue Gauntlet，然后又有一位 Blue Gauntlet 的员工创立了 Absolute。

So, Blue Gauntlet came from Blade, a worker from Blade started Blue Gauntlet and then a work from Blue Gauntlet started Absolute.

所以，这一切都源自 Blade 击剑公司。

So, it all kind of came from Blade fencing.

我在练击剑的时候在那里工作了将近四年半。

I worked there for almost four and a half years while I was fencing.

所以当我参加世界杯时，我会带着击剑装备一起去卖。

So, when I was going to World Cups, I'd bring fencing equipment with me, sell it.

你是那些乌克兰人中的一个。

You were one of the Ukrainian guys.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我在卖东西。

I was selling stuff.

对吧？

Right?

但后来情况变得太疯狂了，我刚准备上场，裁判就过来跟我说：‘嘿，迈克尔，我们得谈谈我们的订单。’

But then it got so crazy where I would hook up for a match and the referee would be like, hey, Michael, we need to talk about our order.

我当时就说

And I was like

你居然说：‘你得谈谈我的得分。’

You're like, you need to talk about my touches.

好吧。

Alright.

我就说：‘行吧。’

I was like, okay.

然后我还跟运动员一起敲击护胸板。

And then I'm hitting bell guards with the fencer.

他却说：‘是啊，我们得谈谈我们学校的订单。’

And he's like, yeah, we need to talk about like our school order.

然后我就只是说

And like and I was just like

好人。

Good guys.

我是

I'm

我现在是击剑装备供应商。

the fencing equipment vendor now.

我想成为击剑手迈克尔。

Like, I'm I wanna be Michael the fencer.

对吧？

Right?

但不管怎样，说到击剑装备，因为我有那段经历，我非常了解。

So but but but anyways, so when it comes to fencing equipment, I'm very knowledgeable because of my experience there.

我走遍了全世界。

I traveled all over the world.

我最大的市场是南美洲。

My biggest territory was South America.

所以我经常在南美洲待着。

So I was down South America a lot.

那真的很有趣。

And it was a lot of fun.

但那时候，你知道，已经快到1999年、2000年了。

But then, you know, it was it was already like 1999, 2000.

我想：好吧，我进不了奥运会了。

I'm like, alright, I'm not gonna make the Olympics.

我热爱击剑。

I love fencing.

我还会继续练，但我得找一份真正的工作。

I'm gonna still do it, but I need a, you know, I need to find a real job.

尽管那也算一份工作，但我没把它当回事。

Even though that was a real job, I just didn't see it.

那时候互联网刚开始兴起，在线支付的概念也逐渐出现了。

That's when the Internet was kind of starting up and and the concept of payments online was coming around and everything.

所以，我纽约大学的一个朋友，名叫A.J. Arora，创办了一家叫eRSVP的公司，也就是在线回复确认。

So a friend of mine from NYU, his name is AJ Arora, started this company called e RSVP, online RSVP.

它有点像Evite。

It's kind of like an Evite.

所以我跟他一起工作了一年。

So, I worked with him for a year.

他教会了我所有东西。

He taught me everything.

当那家公司的资金快用完时，另一家公司出现了，这跟击剑有关——Cliff Bayer，纽约体育俱乐部的成员，第一位赢得世界杯等荣誉的男子全能击剑手。

And when the funding kind of ran out from that company, another company came along and this is like the connection through fencing, Cliff Bayer, New York Athletic Club, first men's full fencer to win, you know, World Cup and everything.

他当时为一位投资了这家新公司的律师工作。

He was working for a lawyer that invested in this other company.

他说，迈克尔，你非常适合。

That said, hey, Michael, you'd be great.

于是，我进入了科技销售领域。

So, I got into the tech sales world.

对吧？

Right?

我当时在销售大型企业数据库。

I was selling large enterprise databases.

我们的客户是非营利组织，帮助他们在线筹款。

Our clients were nonprofits, helping them raise money online.

但在我做这份工作的同时，我还在继续练击剑。

But while I was doing that, was still fencing.

所以，大家都叫我击剑高手。

So, I was known as a fencing guy.

就像在你们公司里，你可能也被叫做击剑高手。

Kind of like in your companies, you're known probably as a fencing guy.

对吧？

Right?

我用掉了所有的年假，到处旅行，做这些事。

And I was using all vacation days and everything to travel and kinda do all that.

对吧？

Right?

我当时是纽约体育俱乐部委员会的成员。

And I was on the committee for the New York Athletic Club.

当时克里斯·奥劳林是主席。

Chris O'Laughlin was the chairman at the time.

就是那时我想出了高中邀请赛这个点子，现在非常受欢迎。

That's when I came up with this idea of the high school invitational, which is very popular.

今年我们会重新举办这个赛事。

We're gonna bring it back this year.

是的。

Yes.

我们邀请顶尖的12名男女生击剑运动员参加，这个点子就是我们想出来的。

Where we invite the top 12 men and women high school fencers and we came up with that idea.

后来克里斯想做一些其他事情，而纽约体育俱乐部的职位是志愿性质的。

And then Chris wanted to do some things and the New York Athletic Club position is a volunteer position.

所以，你知道，这完全是志愿性质的，克里斯说，我觉得你非常适合这个职位。

So, you know, it's completely voluntarily and so Chris said, think you'd be great at it.

我当时说，真的吗？

I was like, really?

是的，迈克尔，你非常适合。

Yeah, Michael, you'd great.

他说，但你需要把你的运动会员资格升级为全职居民会员。

He goes, but you need to change your athletic membership to the full resident membership.

这在费用上差别很大，但我心想，这太棒了，我真的能产生影响。

That's a big difference in money but I was like, this is cool, I can really make an impact.

那是2007年，当时美国女子击剑队的实力并不强。

And so that was 2007 and that's when we really at the time, USA Woman's Epi wasn't that strong.

我早年在路易斯安那就认识特蕾西和鲍勃·赫利。

And I knew Tracy and Bob Hurley back from Louisiana.

他们来自德克萨斯。

They're from Texas.

对吧？

Right?

当时他们有两个年幼的女儿，我可能经常在她们大约12岁的时候和她们击剑较量，而那时我还在二十多岁。

And they had these two young daughters at the time that I probably was beaten up on them, you know, when they were like 12 fencing against me when I was in my twenties.

对吧？

Right?

但那时候，Hurley队表现得非常出色。

But at the time, you know, team Hurley was doing really great.

所以我们跟他们商量，说：‘要不要来纽约体育俱乐部？’

And so we spoke to them and say, hey, how about the New York Athletic Club?

然后我们联系了玛雅·劳伦斯和林赛·坎贝尔，启动了整个女子击剑项目，就像我们现在开展男子击剑项目那样。

And then we reached out to Maya Lawrence and Lindsey Campbell and we started this whole women's epi, kind of what we're doing now with the men's epi program.

你知道的，周末训练营和各种活动，当时我一边工作，一边管理纽约体育俱乐部，后来又有了哥伦比亚的机会。

You know, weekend, camps and different things and, you know, so I'm running the New York Athletic Club while I'm working and then the Columbia opportunity.

那是哪一年？

What year was that?

2011年。

2011.

好吧。

Alright.

所以，2011年。

So, 2011.

乔治·科洛姆博托维奇那时已经不在了吗？

Does George Kolumbotovich was no longer there?

乔治·科洛姆博托维奇即将退休。

George Kolumbotovich was retiring.

是的。

Yeah.

于是，这个重要的职位空缺出来了。

And so the big job came out.

我本来根本没打算申请。

I wasn't even gonna apply.

我的很多朋友都在申请。

A lot of my friends were applying.

然后，你知道的，回到我的朋友韦斯利·麦金尼那里。

And then, you know, back to my my friend, Wesley McKinney.

他说，迈克尔，如果你不申请，那对哥伦比亚大学来说是一种不公。

He said, Michael, you would be doing Columbia an injustice if you did not apply.

所以，我要感谢他，还有我在担任主席期间在纽约体育俱乐部认识的许多哥伦比亚击剑队成员，他们都说我非常适合这个职位。

So, you know, I give him credit and a lot of the Columbia fencers that were at the New York Athletic Club while I was chairman, they said you'd be perfect for this.

你应该去申请。

You should you should do it.

所以，这其实是个有趣的故事，关于我与哥伦比亚大学的面试。

So that was that's a funny story actually, my my interview with Columbia.

我有没有跟你说过这件事？

Did I ever tell you about that?

没有。

No.

你还好吗？

Are you are you okay?

当然。

Sure.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

所以，那真的非常令人兴奋。

So it's so it's so it was it was exciting.

就像，我从来没在大学当过教练，你知道的，管理纽约体育俱乐部，那里有很多精彩的故事，我觉得。

It's like, yeah, never coached college and, you know, managing the New York athletic club and and there's a lot of great stories, I'd say, from the New York Athletic Club.

我们没有足够的时间来谈这些，但我有很多精彩的故事，这些故事让我觉得在凝聚团队和各种事情上都取得了小小的突破。

We don't have enough time on this, but a lot of great stories that I felt were little breakthrough when it comes to, you know, bringing teams together and different things.

所以我来到哥伦比亚大学，这是一件大事，因为乔治在那里执教了三十二年。

But so I I came to Columbia and it was a big deal because George was coaching there for thirty two years.

所以他们一直没换过新教练。

So they haven't had a new coach.

乔治和阿达拉尔·库格勒。

George and Aladar Kugler.

所以我带着一个四年计划来到那里，目标是让哥伦比亚大学在NCAA锦标赛中具有竞争力。

So I I went there with a four year plan where Columbia can be competitive in the NCAA championships.

因为我在九十年代与哥伦比亚大学比剑时，他们曾两次赢得NCAA锦标赛冠军。

Because when I fenced against Columbia in the nineties, they won the NCAA championships twice.

另外两次，他们输给了宾夕法尼亚州立大学，获得亚军。

And the other two times, they were second to Penn State.

所以在我印象里，哥伦比亚大学一直都是赢家。

So all I knew was Columbia as being, like, winners.

在我来之前，我抬头看了看，其实我也不太清楚。

And then right before I came, I was kind of looking up and I just didn't know.

我当时就想，等等，他们的男子队过去两年都是垫底，常春藤联盟到底怎么了？

Was like, wait a minute, their men's team is last for the last two years and the Ivy's like, what's going on?

他们的女子队表现还行，但就是差那么一点。

Their women's team was doing all right, but just falling a little short.

于是，我给他们做了个十五分钟的演讲，讲我们如何在四年内变得有竞争力。

So, I gave them like this fifteen minute talk on how we can be competitive in four years.

整个房间一片寂静。

The room was really quiet.

我当时就想，天啊，他们不喜欢这个想法。

And I was like, oh man, they don't like this.

然后，一位名叫史蒂夫·巴克曼的校友，1959届的，举起了手。

And then, one of the alumni's named Steve Buckman from the class of 1959, he raises his hand.

他说，迈克尔，常春藤联盟锦标赛怎么办？

He goes, Michael, what about the Ivy League championships?

我是纽约大学的毕业生。

I'm I'm an NYU grad.

我在想，常春藤联盟锦标赛是什么？

I'm thinking like, what is the Ivy League championships?

我其实早就知道那是什么。

I already know what it is.

但我反应很快。

But my quick thinking.

对吧？

Right?

我们就用三年时间搞定。

Like, we'll do that in three.

他们说：天啊。

And they're like, oh, man.

太棒了。

That's great.

因为常春藤联盟冠军就是你现在所处的这个阶段。

Because the Ivy League champions is the now you'll be in this now.

这是我第十五个赛季了。

It's my fifteen season.

常春藤联盟冠军太棒了。

Ivy League champions is awesome.

这就像是一场很棒的锦标赛。

It's like it's a great tournament.

特别有趣。

It's so much fun.

而且这是所有常春藤盟校之间的对决。

And and it's like it's a battle between all the Ivies.

太棒了。

It's awesome.

对吧？

Right?

所以我当时这么说的。

And so I said that.

然后又过了几轮面试，他们就说：‘没错，你就是我们要的人。’

And then a couple more, interviews later and like, yep, you're you're our guy.

是的。

Yeah.

有趣的是，三年后我们赢得了常春藤联盟冠军，四年后又赢得了全国冠军。

And the cool thing was three years later, win the Ivies and four year later, win the NCAs.

他们说：‘你早就告诉我们了。’

And they're like, you told us.

我说：‘不，我只是说我们会很有竞争力。’

I'm like, no, I said we'd be competitive.

没有。

Nope.

你早就告诉我们了。

You told us.

好吧。

Like, all right.

不错。

It's good.

是的。

Yeah.

因为当我们正在考虑大学的时候，哥伦比亚大学是一支必须击败的队伍。

Because when we were figuring out, you know, colleges, Columbia was a team to beat.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这挺有意思的。

So that's that's funny.

圆满了。

Full circle.

是的。

Yeah.

一切都会循环回来。

It all comes around.

那么，回到那个计划，我记得2013年或2014年第一次和你有互动。

Well, so going back to that plan, I remember the first time I ever had any interaction with you in 2013 or 2014.

我记不清是哪一年了。

I can't remember which one.

我觉得是2013年。

I think it was '13.

你来洛杉矶参加LAIFC演讲。

You came to Los Angeles to do just speak at LAIFC.

也许你当时还有其他事情，但我记得你来了，还参加了一个关于大学击剑的小组讨论。

And maybe maybe you had other business there, but I remember you were there and you just gave a panel talking about college fencing.

我当时是高中一年级，所以我就……

And I was a freshman in high school, so I I

我根本不知道你在那儿。

I didn't even know you were there.

太酷了。

That's so cool.

他就在那里。

Like, he was there.

我根本不知道。

Didn't even know.

对吧？

Right?

你还记得那个小组讨论。

You remember the panel.

我记得那个小组讨论。

I remember the panel.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得

And I remember

你曾经说过，哥伦比亚大学将在NCAA锦标赛中进入前两名。

you said something along the lines of, you have my word that Columbia will be in the top two at NCAA championships.

我记得你说的是在未来两年内。

I believe you said within the next two years.

而且

And

我记得我曾跟我的一位俱乐部队友聊过，他去了圣约翰大学。

I remember I I spoke to one of my clubmates who is who went to St.

圣约翰大学。

John's.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我当时就说：你听到了吗？

And I went like, You hear that?

那家伙说哥伦比亚大学将在未来两年内进入前两名。

That guy said Columbia is going to be top two in the next two.

你相信吗？

Do you believe that?

他说，如果他们不是的话，我会很惊讶。

And he said, I would be shocked if they weren't.

如果他错了，我反而会更惊讶。

I'd be more surprised if he was incorrect.

果然，过了一年或两年，你们就赢了。

And then sure enough, it was either you know, one year or two years later, you guys won.

是的。

Yeah.

我记得那次对话，我当时就想，是啊，他预测对了。

And I I remember that interaction and I was like, yeah, he called it.

他在一群青少年面前的这个研讨会上准确地预测了这件事，你真的完全说中了。

Like, he really called the shot in front of a bunch of teenagers at this this panel, but you really, like, absolutely called the shot on that one.

确实如此。

It was.

有趣的是，我更倾向于少承诺、多兑现，但你能看出来。

And what's funny, I'm more of a under promise, over deliver type of person, but you can see it.

对吧？

Right?

我肯定，当你们在赢得冠军的圣母大学队时，你们也能看出来。

I'm sure when you guys were on the Notre Dame team that won the championship, like you can see it.

如果没发生，那是因为一些倒霉事或者

And if it doesn't happen, it's because some bad luck or

或者阿里和史蒂文是

Or Ari and Steven were

你们的代表。

your representatives.

我要告诉你，2019年谢谢你了。

I'm gonna tell you like You're welcome for 2019.

2019年，你知道的，我一直在等人问你最喜欢的击剑运动员是谁，对吧？

2019, like, you know, I was waiting for the question, who your favorite fencers, right?

我们可能稍后会谈到这个，但我本来想开玩笑说，2019年是R和Stephen。

And we might get to that later, but I was gonna joke and say, R and Stephen in 2019.

因为你们是我们最害怕的击剑选手，对吧？

Because you're our most feared fencers, right?

你们在2019年是我们最害怕的击剑选手。

You're our most feared fencers in 2019.

在第一天之后，我就想，上帝保佑美国。

And after that first day, I was like, you know, god bless America.

你知道，这大概是他们对我没回哥伦比亚的一种报复吧，你知道的，但说正经的。

Like, you know, this is them kind of paying me back for not coming back to Columbia, you know, or you know, but all kidding aside.

这真有趣。

Oh, that's funny.

这个笑话不错。

That was a good one.

是的。

Yeah.

真希望你没说，不过我很高兴你告诉我们了，但我觉得如果你说完就走，不补充这句话，我们会笑得更厉害。

Wish you had I'm happy you told us, but I think we would have laughed even harder if you didn't follow-up and you said that.

这些年来，我们也遇到过不少糟心事。

We've gotten our fair share of shit over the years.

那真是个很好的笑话。

That was a really good one.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得塞德里克听到这个可能会笑也可能哭。

I think Cedric might laugh or cry with that.

他不会哭的。

He doesn't cry.

他只会说，是的。

He'll just be like, yeah.

不。

No.

这说得通。

That makes sense.

你给了他。

You gave it to him.

没有。

No.

我记得一直盯着看，心里想：好吧，史蒂文。

I remember like kept looking and I was like, alright, Steven.

我心里想：天啊。

I was like, man, god.

这真是太棒了。

Like, this this is great.

继续吧。

Like, just keep going.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为问题是我们看得太久了。

I think the problem was we were looking too.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

情况变得更糟了。

It just got worse.

哇。

Wow.

那么，回到正题。

So, back to get getting back on track.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个不错的点。

That's a good one.

那太棒了。

That was great.

是什么点燃了你的热情？

What, what sparked your fire?

击剑有什么特别之处，让你觉得它与众不同？

What about fencing, you know, made it special to you?

你说你最初想练击剑是因为它能帮助你跑步，后来你发现这是一项真正的运动，但单凭这一点还不足以解释你为什么至今仍坚持在这里。

You said you wanted to do it because it was gonna help you running, and then you saw there was a real sport, but that alone isn't why you're still here.

在你心中，击剑有什么特别的地方？是什么让你如此长久地坚持下去？当然，我不会给你提示，我会让你自己说。

What about fencing is special in your mind that, you know, something that's kept you going in it for so long other than actually, no, I won't give you any I'll let you

嗯，作为运动员，我觉得主要是好胜心驱使。

Well, so I'd say as a athlete, it was just being competitive.

我在任何事情上都特别好胜。

I'm very competitive in everything.

对吧？

Right?

这是一件有趣的事。

And this was something fun.

我想看看自己能练到什么程度，就是这样。

I wanted to see how good I can get and that's that.

在教练层面，这14年来确实有了很大的变化。

At a coaching level, it's definitely evolved over the 14.

我现在正处于第十五个赛季，如果算上纽约体育俱乐部的话，时间更长。

It's my fifteenth season right now and even longer if you include the New York Athletic Club.

所以很多时候，人们会问，你知道的，击剑教练到底做些什么？

So a lot of times people they say, you know, so like what what does a fencing coach do?

然后与其一一列举各种不同的职责，比如主教练和助理教练之间的区别等等。

And then rather than kind of list all the different things and head coach positions different than assistant coaches and different things like that.

但当我审视我的工作职责时，我真正认为自己是在创造一个让人能发挥最佳水平的环境。

But like when I look at my job description, I really look at it as I'm creating an environment where people can do their best work.

对吧？

Right?

在纽约体育俱乐部和哥伦比亚大学都是如此。

Both at the New York Athletic Club and at Columbia.

当我刚加入纽约体育俱乐部时，我非常亲力亲为，想推动一些事情。

Now at the New York Athletic Club, when I first started, I was very hands on trying to get some things.

现在，我可能唯一还会更亲力亲为的，就是房间的整洁。

Now probably the one thing I'd be a little bit more hands on is the neatness of the room.

对吧？

Right?

但除此之外，对纽约体育俱乐部来说，最好的方式就是让你们自己去发挥。

But other than that, what's the best thing for the New York Athletic Club is letting you guys go with it.

对吧？

Right?

那我在哥伦比亚大学能做些什么，来创造这样一个让每个人都能发挥最佳状态的环境呢？

So what can I do at Columbia to create this great environment where people can do their best work?

但一开始，我关注的全是冠军。

And at first though, it was all about the championships.

就像是，我要让那些人看看我有多厉害。

It's like, let me prove people wrong.

我要向他们证明，作为主教练，我能组建出一支赢得冠军并完成各种目标的队伍。

Let me prove to them that, you know, I as a head coach can put together the right team to win championships and do all these different things.

我读过约翰·伍登写的一本好书。

I read a great book by John Wooden.

其实我读过很多本约翰·伍登的好书。

Well, I read many great John Wooden books.

对吧？

Right?

我读的第一本他的书，在序言里提到，约翰·伍登曾对一些最好的朋友说：‘希望他们能赢得全国冠军’，因为他自己赢了12次，我想。

And on the first book I ever read from him in the forward it says, John Wooden said this, to some of my best friends, may I wish they win a national championship because he won 12, I think.

你赢了不少呢。

You won quite a few.

没错。

Right.

很多。

A lot.

对吧？

Right?

我们之前的一集中其实用过一句约翰·伍登的名言。

We actually had a John Wooden quote in one of the earlier episodes.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以，正如你所说，愿我的好友们赢得全国冠军，而我的死敌们也赢得很多，赢得很多。

So may I have, like you said, may my best friends win the national championships and my worst enemies win many, win many.

我当时就想：什么？

And I was like, what?

这人到底在说什么？

What is this guy talking about?

我想赢得很多NCAA冠军。

I wanna win a lot of NCAA championships.

但当你赢了之后，就像你们知道的，期望值就上来了。

But when you win, even as you guys know where you then the expectations are here.

是的。

Yep.

有了期望，就会产生一种我们所谓的、我称之为头脑中人为施加的压力。

And with expectations, right, becomes this what we call, you know, I call it like this artificial pressure that you put in your head.

这样就没那么有趣了。

And it's not as fun.

所以作为教练，有些时候我记得当我们赢得常春藤联盟冠军时，我感到的是一种解脱。

And so there were even some times as a coach, I remember when we won the Ivy championships, I was like, I felt relieved.

我没有感受到喜悦。

I didn't feel the joy.

第一种是喜悦。

The first one is joy.

第二个是，哇，我们怎么做到的，对吧？

Second one like, wow, how we do this, right?

这太疯狂了。

This is crazy.

因为作为教练，我们看着、我看着，看到所有可以改进的地方。

Because also as a coach we're looking or I'm looking and I see everything that could be better.

我可能不会说出来，但我看得到，我会在计划中调整，尝试不同的方法。

I might not say it, but I see it and I'm trying to adjust it in our plans and do different things.

但当你一直赢的时候，每个人，就像我总说的，我们大学的体育主任，他期望我们每年都能赢。

But then when you're winning all the time, then everyone, like I always say, the athletic director of our university, he expects us to win every year.

圣母大学可能也是这样，其他一些学校大概也是如此。

Probably same at Notre Dame, probably same at some other schools.

对吧？

Right?

我们的校友，他们期望我们每年都能赢。

Our alumni, they expect us to win every year.

就连我们的球队，我们也期望每年都能赢。

Even our team, we expect to win every year.

而这就是我发生转变的地方：我们都清楚外界的期望，但我们的目标是什么？

And that's where I had a shift, like the goal of we all know the expectation, but what's our goal?

让我们最大限度地发挥潜力。

Let's maximize our potential.

而这时你就开始意识到，有些事情是我们能掌控的。

And that's where you kind of get into, well, now we can control this.

所以当每个人都问，你的理想日是什么样的？

And so when everyone says, you know, what's your dream day?

我觉得比莱克来自爱国者队说过，那就是拥有一场出色的训练。

And I think Billacek from the Patriots said this is like to have a great practice.

你知道吗？我希望我们成为全美训练最出色的球队，对吧？

You know, I want us to be the best practice team in America, right?

这是我们能掌控的事情。

Something we can control.

所以，你知道，为什么选择击剑？作为一名教练，我真的能帮助这些年轻的运动员，他们年龄在17到23岁之间，有时甚至到24、25岁，帮助他们实现梦想。

So, you know, the why fencing, you know, fencing as a coach is is like I really can help these young student athletes, you know, it's anywhere from 17 to 23, sometimes 24, 25, right, reached their dreams.

而随着我从事这项工作的时间越来越长，我发现这已经不仅仅是击剑了。

And then the longer I've been in this, it's more than fencing.

这关乎人生。

It's about life.

这里有一件有趣的事。

And here's something interesting.

就在去年，我当了十四年教练后才刚刚明白。

I just learned last year after fourteen years of coaching.

作为一名教练，我最大的挫败之一，我知道你们也讨论过，我非常认同你们说的——让父母放松，放手，顺其自然。

One of my biggest frustrations as a coach, and I know you guys talk about, I love what you're saying about parents relax, you know, like parents, you know, let it go, the flow.

对吧？

Right?

作为大学的主教练，我最大的挫败之一是，我们拥有那么多充满渴望、才华横溢的个体，但他们大学毕业后就不再练击剑了。

One of my biggest frustrations as a head coach, right, at a university that we have great hungry talented individuals, They stopped fencing after college.

我刚来的时候特别震惊，也很沮丧，随着时间推移，这种感觉越来越强烈。

Like I was shocked when I first got here and I was frustrated, you know, as the years were going on.

但那些坚持打完大学四年击剑的顶尖选手，不是那种只打两三年就放弃的人——现在哥伦比亚大学已经没有这种情况了——他们却一直坚持下来。

But then some of the best fencers that fence all the way through college, not the ones that would, you know, after two or three years, which doesn't happen at Columbia anymore, But that would just stop it.

他们四年全情投入，毕业后却放下了自己的花剑、重剑或佩剑。

When they go through the four years and they give a 100% and then drop their foil or their saber, their epi.

因为我已经有了十四年的校友观察经验。

Then because now I have fourteen years of alum that I've seen.

他们不是在为分数而战。

It's like, no, no, no, they're fighting for points.

对吧？

Right?

但现在他们是在为病人而战，或者是在为专利而战，因为他们成了律师，对吧？

But now they're fighting for their patient or now they're fighting for a patent because they're a lawyer, right?

或者他们在为销售业绩而战，或者为其他事情而拼搏。

Or they're fighting for a sale or they're fighting for this.

击剑确实帮助了我在商业生涯中的成长。

It's like fencing definitely helped me in my life when I was in business.

但如果我们给予他们最好的条件，并教导他们这些良好的习惯，使它们转化为持久的行为，实际上就是在为他们的一生做准备。

But we see how if you give them the best possible everything and you teach them these great habits that can turn into good behaviors, it really you're teaching them for life.

所以，这就是我坚持做这件事的原因。

And so, that's like why I do it.

而这正是我从中获得的快乐。

And that's, you know, the joy that I get out of it.

我仍然希望赢得冠军，因为像击剑这样的团队运动，赢得比赛真的很有趣。

And still want to win championships because it's fun winning as a team in a sport like fencing.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

很多事情在这里被提及了，但我非常欣赏你作为教练的职责是帮助他们做好战斗准备，成为竞争者。

A lot of things, lots unpacked there, but I really like that your job as a coach is to prepare them to fight, to be a competitor.

成为竞争者的这些原则，无论是击剑、篮球、柔道还是其他任何运动，如果你是一个优秀的竞争者，你就能在锦标赛中表现出色，追求伟大的头衔，而你甚至可能没有意识到自己正在学习或掌握的一些原则。

These principles of being a competitor, whether it's fencing or basketball or judo or whatever it is, if you're a good competitor, you can perform at a championship and pursue this great title, then you can go on and some things you might not even realize you're learning or some of these principles.

你可以把这些原则应用到，就像你所说的，当律师、做销售，或者成为任何你想成为的人。

You can apply that to, like you said, being a lawyer, being a salesman, being whatever you want to be.

所以，我认为这可以很好地重新看待大学后一些优秀击剑人才的流失——他们只是将这些才能应用到了职业生涯中，但依然在运用这些原则。

So I guess that's a good way to reframe the loss of some of this great fencing talent post college is they're just applying that talent in their professional lives, but they're still using those principles.

完全正确。

Absolutely.

所以，作为教练，你必须看到这一点，并为此感到非常欣慰，因为你能够传授这些。

So you got to look at that and be very happy as a coach that you're able to teach.

而且这其中依然蕴含着某种意义。

And there's still this into that.

那种挫败感已经不存在了。

The frustration is not there.

现在，因为你从始至终都为自身和团队全力以赴，一直到大学锦标赛的最后一刻，无论你是否继续从事这项运动，你都会从击剑中获得更多的收获。

Now, because like you give yourself and the team a 100% all the way through college like to that last NCAA championships, you'll get more from our sport after college whether you continue or not.

那些继续的人，很好。

And those that continue it, great.

是的。

Yeah.

来纽约体育俱乐部吧。

Come come to New York Athletic Club.

对吧？

Right?

去吧。

Do.

你知道，你已经对那些离开校园后仍在圈子里的前大学击剑运动员有了相当多的了解，包括你项目里的人。

You know, you already have quite a bit of experience of of people that are out in the network of of former competitive collegiate fencers that both people that were in your program.

你有像那些后来参加奥运会、现在成为奥运冠军的人。

You had people like went on to the Olympic Games, Olympic champion now.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你还有人在读医学院、当律师，你知道的，还有银行家。

You also have people that are in med school, lawyers, you know, bankers.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你在击剑圈里也有教练。

You have coaches in the fencing community.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你还有人仍在练习击剑。

You have people that are still fencing.

你知道，这个网络覆盖面非常广。

You know, the the the net is super wide.

还有人在媒体行业，有经纪人，你知道的，有娱乐产业的人，这真有意思。

There are people that are in media, that you have agents, you know, you have talent industry, and it's it's cool to see.

而且我知道你在维系校友与学生之间的联系方面做得很好，很多大学都难以建立这样的联系。

And then I know that you have done a good job fostering this alumni student connection that a lot of universities struggle to build.

你们还举办像每年一次的校友聚会这样的活动，最近刚办过，让校友们能来和击剑队员互动。

And you host events like the alumni meet that you do every year that just recently happened, where the alumni get to come and engage with the fencers.

但他们只有在乎自己在哥伦比亚大学的经历时，才会这么做，你知道的。

But they would only do that if they cared about their experience at Columbia, you know.

不是每个人即使玩得开心也会回来，我敢肯定。

Those not everyone comes back even if they had a good time, I'm sure.

但要知道，要让任何人回来，他们至少得有点在乎。

But, you know, to get anyone to come back, they have to care a little.

是的。

Yeah.

你似乎在这方面获得了相当多的支持。

And you seem to have quite a bit of buy in for that.

你能稍微详细说说吗？

Do you mind elaborating a little bit on that?

当谈到哥伦比亚击剑队以及我想要的体验时。

So when it comes to say the Columbia Fencing team and the experience that I want.

所以我想起，当我还在纽约大学时，史蒂夫·阿曼多是那里的主教练。

And so I'm like, Steve Armando was the head coach back at NYU when I was there.

而且，你知道，他送了我一份礼物。

And, you know, he gave me a gift.

就像我一直好奇，我到底是怎么进入纽约大学的，对吧？

Like, again, I always wonder how I got into NYU, right?

那是另一个故事了。

That's another story.

我在那里度过了非常美好的时光。

And I had a great experience right there.

但我总是对自己说，你可能以前听过，当你离开时，总希望留下比你来时更好的东西。

But then I always say to myself, and you might have heard this before, it's like when you kind of leave a legacy, wanted to always leave it better than when you're there.

因此，我担任哥伦比亚大学教练时的规划之一，就是如何创造比我在纽约大学经历的还要更好的学生运动员体验，毕竟我在纽约大学的经历已经很棒了。

And so, part of my planning of being a coach at Columbia is how can I make even a better student athlete experience than that I had, which was a great experience at NYU?

但我要怎样才能让它变得更好呢？

But how can I make it even better?

那我们怎么才能进行有趣的竞争呢？

And then how can we compete which is fun?

当我们和圣母大学这样的学校竞争时，对吧？

And when we're competing against schools like Notre Dame, right?

那里，你知道，金钱根本不是问题，你拥有所有这些优秀的资源，多亏了吉亚，我疫情刚结束就去那里参观过，进行了很棒的导览，看到之后我想，哇，这简直像迪士尼乐园。

That where, you know, money is no object really and you have all these great resources because thanks to Gia, I went there actually right after the pandemic and had a great tour and I see it and I was like, wow, you know, this is like Disneyland.

我记得见过你在那儿。

I remember seeing you there.

是的。

Yeah.

这真是太棒了。

Like this is this is awesome.

对吧？

Right?

所以我们得在哥伦比亚大学打造一个属于我们的迷你版圣母大学。

So we have to kind of create our our our mini Notre Dame at Columbia.

但关键是，每个人都很重要。

But then, like, with the experience that everybody matters.

这一点非常重要。

And that's something that's very important.

这尤其是一项艰巨的挑战，我知道你们是一个大团队的一部分。

It's one of the hardest challenges especially and I know you guys are part of a big team.

对吧？

Right?

哥伦比亚大学可能是整个常春藤联盟中规模最大的团队，无论是在招录的运动员还是自费加入的队员方面都是如此。

Columbia probably is one of the largest teams, definitely the largest team in the Ivy, both with our recruited athletes and with our walk ons.

今年，男女运动员加起来共有48人。

This year were 48 individuals between the women and the men.

但当你只有18人参赛——男女各9人，有时旅行队伍甚至达到15人，你知道，这非常困难。

And when you only have 18 competing, nine women, nine men and even travel teams of 15 to 15, sometimes, you know, it's it's it's very hard.

所以，我的一个理念，也是我们的理念是：每个人都会有自己的时刻，你必须时刻做好准备。

And so, you know, one of my philosophies, our philosophies is everyone would have their moment and you gotta be always prepared for that.

但你一直所做的每一件事都会帮助团队达到最佳状态，因为我们从事的是一项一对一竞争的运动。

But everything you do all the time is going to help the team be our best because we're in a sport where it's me versus you.

对吧？

Right?

这就是击剑，是一对一的较量。

That's fencing, it's me versus you.

而现在，我们必须转变为彼此协作。

And now we have to shift to me with you.

对吧？

Right?

是彼此协作。

It's me with you.

你尽全力，我也尽全力，我们会一起进步。

You give your best, I'll give my best and we're gonna rise together.

所以，我觉得在纽约体育俱乐部也是如此。

So, and I feel that it's happening at the New York Athletic Club as well.

有很多共同的想法，我们都在竞争，但也有许多不同的方面。

A lot of shared ideas and we're all competing, but a lot of different things.

所以，这种每个人都很重要的文化，对吧？

So, with this culture of everybody matters, right?

我们有一种叫做‘帮助帮助者’的文化。

We have what we call the help the helper culture.

有一本书叫《帮助帮助者》。

There's a book called Help the Helper.

这其实是一个篮球战术，叫‘帮助帮助者’。

It's actually a basketball play, Help the Helper.

我甚至都不太了解这个战术，但我们的团队从2015年就开始读这本书了。

I don't even know it but the book our team's been reading it since 2015.

每个人都读过这本书。

Everybody reads it.

每年我们都会做小组报告，它的核心就是通过非凡的付出，帮助他人成为最好的自己。

Every year we all do group reports on it, but it's like all about doing the extraordinary to help people become the best they can be.

当你在这样的环境中待上四年，你会回来。

When you're in that environment for four years, you come back.

对吧？

Right?

你会想要回来，因为一旦离开这个环境，外面的世界就不会这么互助了。

You want to be because once you leave that environment, the world isn't so help the helper.

对吧？

Right?

外面的世界不会帮你，也不会理解你生病了，你知道的。

The world isn't going to help you out or understand that you're sick and you know

我的意思是，也不会关心你是不是在练击剑。

I mean Or care that you fence.

对，没错。

Right, exactly.

所以，正因为如此，这里是个不错的地方。

You know, so with that, right, it's like it's a nice place.

我认为，我们许多学生运动员在毕业后的几年里，现在开始真正体会到这一点了。

And I think a lot of our student athletes after they graduate now for a couple years, I believe they appreciate it now.

但当他们离开几年后，你会觉得，哇，那段时光真是太棒了。

But when they leave a few years later, you're like, wow, that was that was great.

对吧？

Right?

所以每次重聚，都总是很愉快的时光。

And so to get back together, it's always a good time.

每当我们重聚，无论是校友聚会还是年度晚宴，我总是努力把它打造成一次难忘的体验。

And whenever we do get back together, what's the alumni meet or annual banquet, I always try to make it a cool experience.

我不想只是办一场普通的晚宴。

Like, don't want to just have a banquet.

我们是想办一场晚宴。

Like, we want to have a banquet.

对吧？

Right?

我们想让它变得非常精彩，有一些有趣的演讲，而且是在洛图书馆举行，感觉很棒。

We wanna make it, like, incredible and some fun speeches and, you know, it's in Low Library and it's great.

校友聚会时，我们会尽量邀请更多不同的人来，分享一些有趣的故事。

And alumni meet, you know, we're gonna try to get as many different people in and tell some fun stories.

一旦做到了，那就是一段非常美好的时光。

And once you do that, it's just a great time.

是的。

Yeah.

谢谢。

Thank you.

对。

Yeah.

嗯。

Mhmm.

是的。

Yeah.