卡梅隆·沃博伊斯 - AI原生设计团队内部

至于它未来的发展形态，说实话，我不太清楚，但我们目前正朝着三个原型方向努力。

And then I think as far as, like, the evolving shape of it, I I honestly don't know, but there's there's three archetypes which we're working towards.

我认为，在最高层面上，这是一个角色界限变得更加模糊的世界。

And I think at the highest level, it's a world where the lines between roles are a lot more fluid.

我们在Block内部通常会谈到这一点，虽然这个说法不是我提出的，但确实有一个DRI。

And we basically, talk internally at Block, and I can't take credit for this, but there's basically a DRI.

他是推动工作进展的人。

He's the person who's driving the work.

还有ICE，他们是精通技艺、有品位的执行者，负责朝着目标推进实际工作。

There's ICEs who are the craft makers, taste makers driving the actual execution towards that goal.

然后是球员兼教练，他们是组织中的领导层。

And then there's player coaches, which are, like, the leadership layer of the organization.

我可以逐一详细说明这些角色，我觉得DRI特别值得深入探讨，尤其是对于设计师来说，因为作为DRI，你的优势在于能够将企业中一个模糊的战略要点转化为具体行动。

I can, like, go into each one of those, I guess, from I think a DRI is is a really interesting thing to lean into, particularly as a designer, because your strength as a DRI is essentially is your ability to take a loose strategic nugget as a business.

对吧？

Right?

例如，目前我非常关注一个叫做‘邻里关系’的概念，它是我们连接Square和Cash App双方用户的方式。

So for example, at the moment, I'm very focused on this idea called neighborhoods, which is how we connect both sides of counter between Square and Cash App.

你想想，这真是一个值得解决的迷人问题。

And you think about that, that's, like, fascinating problem to solve.

为什么当你走进每一家Square店铺时，不能用Cash App付款呢？

Why when you walk into every single Square shop, should you not play with pay with Cash App?

这没有任何理由。

That's no reason.

对吧？

Right?

这不仅是一个技术上极具挑战性的问题，也是一个以客户为中心的体验挑战。

And it's like a very technically interesting challenge to solve, but also very customer centric experience challenge to solve.

这是一个非常重要的角色，我认为它塑造了设计的未来——这类人能够很好地定义问题，可以说是创造性地解决问题，并开始思考：这家企业面临的最大问题是什么？我如何通过构建、产品开发和设计思维，帮助人们可视化并跟随我实现这一变革？

That's like an important role, which I think shapes the future of design is like people who can take maybe a good ways to frame it is like creative problem solving and start to think about what are the biggest problems that this business faces and how can I use building and product development and design thinking to help people visualize and follow me on that change?

我认为，这种角色依然会非常重要。

Like, that's a role which I think will still be really important.

而在个人贡献者层面，目前表现突出的都是我所说的那种纯粹的建设者。

And then on the IC side, the ICs that are thriving at the moment are what I would just call, like, just builders.

他们是倾向于行动的人。

They are people who bias towards action.

他们非常注重成果和解决方案，而不是拘泥于线性流程。

They are very outcome focused and solution focused versus linear process focused.

他们就是觉得，好吧。

They're just like, okay.

不错。

Cool.

我们要通过Square和Cash App连接收银台的两端。

We're gonna connect both sides of the counter through Square and Cash App.

让我们先开始制作一些原型，把它们交到客户手中。

Let's just start building some prototypes of how we could potentially do that, get that into customers' hands.

也不怕犯错。

And not scared of being wrong.

我认为，我目前看到的最重要的特质是，那些愿意说‘我支持这个作为初步方向’的个体贡献者，实际上是一种被低估的能力。

I think that's, like, the probably the most important trait that I'm seeing is that ICs who are willing to be like, I back this as the first direction is is is is actually a undervalued skill.

我认为，这些个体贡献者目前往往表现得非常出色。

And I think those ICs tend to be, like, really, really thriving at the moment.

而在玩家兼教练的角色中，设计领域仍然迫切需要领导者。

And then in the player coach space, there's still a a deep need for leaders in design.

但在AI浪潮之前，我们就已经这样做了，我们并不认同其他大型科技公司那种意义上的专业经理人。

But we did this before the AI push, but we've we don't believe in, like, professional managers in the sense that other large tech companies might have.

在我看来，一个对团队产出不负责任的经理，简直是世界上最愚蠢的想法，完全不符合我的理念。

The idea to me that you have a manager who who is not responsible for the output of their team is just, like, one of the dumbest things in the world and just doesn't compete with me.

因此，我们的经理——我们称之为主管——都是玩家兼教练。

And so our managers are or our leads, we call them, are player coaches.

他们负责推动团队取得成果和积极的结果。

They are responsible for driving outcomes and positive outcomes in the team.

他们所推动以及团队所推动的所有细节，他们都要承担责任。

And all of the pixels which they're pushing and their team is pushing, they are responsible for.

所以我们有这三种类型。

So those are the three archetypes which we have.

我认为在这三种类型中，你几乎能看到不同的技能占据主导地位。

And I I think across those archetypes, you're almost seeing, like, different skills prevail.

我可以总结为：DRIs 是那些能够进行创造性领导的人。

And, you know, I would summarize it as, the DRIs are, like, the people who are able to kind of do, like, creative leadership essentially.

ICs 则是纯粹的建设者，他们产出高质量、高技艺的作品。

The ICs are just the builders who just produce and create amazing high craft outputs.

而玩家教练则是那些能够引导 ICs 实现卓越成果的人。

And then the player coaches are essentially the people who can kind of lead the ICs towards achieving great outcomes.

这通常就是我所看到的，但相反的情况可能是：我认为那种不实际产出成果的中层专业管理岗位将不复存在。

And that's generally what I've seen, but maybe the inverse of that would be, I don't think the kind of middle professional management layer who doesn't actually produce stuff will exist.

我认为它可能已经不像三年前那样存在了。

I I don't think it exists anymore perhaps in the way it did three years ago.

我记得曾经在一家大公司面试，他们问我：你想做 IC 还是管理者？

I remember interviewing at a big company, and they're like, do you wanna be an IC or a manager?

我当时就想，我能不能两者都做？

And I was like, could I be both?

他们说，不行。

And they're like, no.

不行。

No.

不行。

No.

有些人花了五年时间只做纯粹的管理者，现在他们就陷入困境了。

And people would have invested, like, five years of their career in just being a pure play manager, and then they're then they're kind of fucked now.

这真的很艰难。

It's tough.

这真的很艰难。

It's tough.

我真心为这些人感到难过。

I genuinely feel for those people.

是的。

And Yeah.

我非常喜欢DRI，因为我觉得它能帮助我轻松评估自己作为设计师在工程-产品三角关系中想要发展的方向。

I really like DRI a lot because I think it's been easy to evaluate where you wanna grow as a designer on kind of the, you know, engineering product triad a little bit.

比如，我是否想更多地走代码这条路？

It's like, oh, do I wanna go down the code path more?

我是否想走产品这条路？

Do I wanna go down the product path?

产品在某些方面感觉像是对设计的偏离，但很明显，这里存在着对战略层面的需求。

And product felt like a departure from design in some ways, but it's so clear that, like, there's this need on, like, this like, the strategy.

你提到了创造性解决问题。

You said creative problem solving.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

你知道的？

You know?

就像人工智能正在加速一切。

It's like AI is accelerating everything.

真是太好了。

Was like, great.

在某种程度上，瓶颈在于创意。

The bottleneck in some ways is ideas.

你知道的。

You know?

你得不断想出点子并加以引导，我完全相信设计师最有可能在这一角色中脱颖而出。

Like, gotta you gotta come up with things and direct things, and I totally believe that designers might be the best positioned person to thrive in that role.

是的。

Yeah.

我也有类似的感受。

I I feel similar.

以前当个点子王总像是个笑话。

Being the ideas guy always used to be like a joke.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

而现在，实际上，这可能很有价值。

And now, like, actually, it might be valuable.

十八个月前在推特上这还是个侮辱，现在却让人惊叹。

It was such an insult, like, eighteen months ago on Twitter, and now it's like, wow.

我们需要更多有创意的人。

We need more ideas guys.

嘿。

Hey.

我们很快就要招聘有创意的人了。

We're hiring ideas guys soon.

对。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

可能吧。

May Yeah.

也许那里的情况不同。

Maybe it's different there.

最成功的DRIs，比如我想到了Brian和Owen，他们是公司里资历很深的人。

It's like, the most successful DRIs, like, I'm thinking of Brian and Owen that they're super senior people at the company.

他们也是DRIs。

They're they're DRIs as well.

当然，Brian曾经是Cash App的前CEO。

And that obviously, Brian was, the old CEO of Cash App.

所以他完美地诠释了DRI的定义，因为他能直接推动事情落地，并具备战略思维。

So he's, like, the perfect definition of a TRI because he could just he could just make stuff happen and think strategically.

但这真的很有趣，因为你确实需要在不同层级上拥有更多这样的人，你必须培养一支能力出众的领导团队，能够带领机器人和人类共同实现这些成果。

But it's a really fascinating thing because you do need more of those people at different layers, and you have to build a bench of highly capable leaders who can essentially, you know, lead the the robots plus the humans to deliver these outcomes.

我认为这并没有人们想象的那么简单。

And I don't think it's as simple as people realize.

我确实通过朋友，甚至从个人经历中看到过类似Cash App的情况：如果你只是有一群人在不断构建和生产东西，但这些工作没有被塑造成一个连贯的方向、战略和有品位的筛选，就会感觉缺乏方向感。

And I've definitely seen even through friends or even, you know, from personal experience, a Cash App where if you have just, like, a bunch of people building stuff and making stuff, but it's not being shaped into, like, a coherent direction and strategy with taste and curation, it kind of just feels a bit rudderless.

你虽然在不断产出东西，但并没有真正产生影响力。

And you're, like, producing stuff, but it's not really driving the impact.

对我来说，这可能是整个行业普遍没有讨论到的一个关键点。

And that to me is perhaps one bit, which the industry at large is maybe not talking about.

因为你可以整天不停地制作和构建东西，但如果客户并不需要，那一切就毫无意义。

Because you can make stuff and build stuff all day, but if customers don't want it, it's kind of pointless.

对吧？

Right?

有一个问题我一直无法停止思考。

There's one question that I can't stop asking myself.

如果公司主动申请来和你交谈，而不是你主动去找他们，会怎么样？

What if companies apply to talk to you rather than the other way around?

这个问题是全新Dive人才网络的基础，而且它已经奏效了。

And that question is the foundation for the all new Dive Talent Network, and it's working.

比如现在，我正在帮助我认识的许多最令人兴奋的初创公司，招聘那些收听这个节目的设计师和开发者。

Like, right now, I'm helping many of the most exciting startups that I know to hire the designers and builders who listen to this show.

所以，如果你好奇外面有什么机会，想加入我的名单，或者你正在寻找下一个设计人才，现在就去 dive.club/talent 加入吧。

So if you're curious what might be out there and if you wanna get on my list or maybe you're even looking for your next design hire, head to dive.club/talent to join today.

好的。

Okay.

所以我们一直在讨论各种原型，以及世界上正在发生的一切变化。

So we're talking a lot about archetypes and everything that's changing in the world.

那么我的问题是，这如何影响了你对招聘的思考？

My question then is, how's this influencing the way that you're thinking about hiring?

甚至可能影响了你在评估人选时优先考虑和判断的信号，以确定谁是最适合加入团队的人？

And maybe even, like, the signals that you're prioritizing and evaluating people and trying to figure out who's the best fit to bring into the team?

我认为，始终如一、从未改变的是一个人良好的意愿。

So I think the thing that's universal and has and has never ever changed is someone a good desire.

当我大声说出来时，这听起来可能很蠢，对吧？但大多数人失败在作品集阶段或面试阶段，是因为他们缺乏我认为设计中最重要的东西之一——也就是技艺。

And that might sound stupid, right, when I say that out loud, but most people fail a portfolio phase or an interview phase because they don't have what I perceive as one of the most important things in design, which is essentially craft.

我之前说90%，但我觉得实际上可能更接近95%。

Made I that 90% up, but I actually think it will be probably closer to, like, 95%.

每一个拒信的原因中，我认为排在第一位、远超其他的是技艺。

Every single rejection reason, I think the number one up there by an exponential amount is, like, craft.

我认为围绕技艺的其他东西都更容易教授。

I think the other stuff that surrounds craft is much easier to teach.

但一个人与生俱来的审美和品味，才是我认为我一次又一次见证过的最宝贵的东西。

But someone's, like, innate eye and taste is actually the most valuable thing that I think I've time and time again had.

比如，我想到很多这样的人，你一眼就能看出他们有这种天赋，只是他们之前没有机会。

Like, there's a lot of people I'm thinking of who you could just tell they had an eye for it, and they hadn't necessarily had the opportunity.

一旦你给了他们机会，他们的审美就会脱颖而出。

And then you give them the opportunity, and then the eye prevails.

对我来说，'审美'这个词似乎只意味着视觉层面的东西，但其实并不是。

And to me, like, the eye implies that it's just this, like, visual only thing, and it's not.

当你看一个产品时，它就是感觉对了，平衡得恰到好处，一切显得无比自然，这种能力很难量化，但我认为这实际上是设计师最重要的技能。

You know, when you look at a product and it just feels right, and they've balanced it and it just feels like incredibly obvious, that's a really hard value to place on something, but I think it's actually probably the single most important skill as, a designer.

随着你能产出的内容数量增加，我们会看到大量同质化，而真正能以高度专注和意图去筛选、清楚知道什么是好设计的设计师会越来越少。

And I think as the number as, like, the amount of output you can produce comes up, we're gonna see a ton of swap, and then we will see a smaller and smaller amount of designers and people who can really just, like, select with such intention and focus that they know what good looks like.

对我来说，这种从未改变的普遍特质就是工艺、品味，不管你如何称呼它。

So to me, that's the, like, the universal trait that hasn't changed, like craft, taste, whatever you wanna call it.

人们有一个误解，认为这只关乎视觉层面。

And there's a misconception that it's just like the visual side.

它不仅仅是视觉层面。

It's not just the visual side.

它是所有元素融合在一起后那种‘感觉对了’的综合体现。

It's like it's the combo of it all when it just feeling right.

这真的、真的非常重要。

Like, that's that's really, really important.

然后我认为，在招聘方面我们看到更多变化的，是通用的AI能力之类的东西，现在这些已经成了基本要求。

And then I think the other stuff that we've seen change more on the hiring side is just general AI fluency and stuff like that is just kind of a given now.

我认为，如果你没有用AI做一些东西，也没有其他项目，是很难通过面试流程的。

I I think it's unlikely that you'd get through the interview process if you weren't building some stuff in AI and, like, had other projects.

有些人，比如在那些不太前沿的公司工作的人，他们的工艺水平却非常高。

There's some people, for example, who work at companies who aren't as AI forward but have insane craft levels.

他们通常会在周末说：‘我做了个超棒的工具。’

They tend to be being like, oh, the weekends.

你能把这两点联系起来，就会觉得：这已经足够了。

I built this amazing tool, and you can kind of connect two and two, you're like, this is enough.

我不知道这有没有回答你的问题，但我认为最重要的是：工艺总会脱颖而出。

So I don't know if that answered the question, but I think the most important thing to say there is craft always shines through.

而现在，比以往任何时候都更明显——即使你看看Twitter上那些作为个人贡献者（IC）粉丝数呈指数增长的人，靠的也是工艺。

And now more than ever, even if you look on Twitter and you see the people who are, like, growing their followings exponentially as, an IC, it's craft.

他们正在打造令人惊叹的原型。

Like, they're building amazing prototypes.

他们正在创造出色的交互体验，而我认为这种趋势短期内不会消失。

They're building amazing interactions, and I just don't think that's disappearing anytime soon.

所以这就是我一直在关注的，也是Cash App很多人的做法。

So that's what I keep looking out for, and that's what a lot of people at Cash App.

而且我认为这正是这款应用的细节和完成度如此出色的原因，因为我们有很多人非常重视这些东西。

And and I think that's why the fit and finish of the app feels quite nice because we have a lot of people who care deeply about that stuff.

我想再深入探讨一下AI熟练度这一点，并想对听到你说话的特定听众说几句。

I drill wanna into the AI fluency piece a little bit, and I wanna speak to a very specific listener who hears you.

也许他们一直回避所有AI相关的内容，觉得麻烦又没时间，而你就是要说服他们。

Maybe they've actually been kind of punting all the AI stuff because it's annoying, and they don't have time for it, and you just convince them.

你可能会说，好吧。

You're like, alright.

说吧。

Shoot.

我真的必须在这方面投入，但还不太清楚。

Like, I I actually really have to invest in this, but it's unclear.

这个门槛在哪里？

Where is the threshold?

你是想看到设计师跨越哪条线，让你能说：没错。

Like, what line are you trying to see designers get over where you can say, yep.

他们已经具备了所需的能力，或者已经进行了足够的尝试、构建了足够的东西。

They have what it takes, and they've experimented enough or they've built enough.

所以，如果你是一名个体贡献者，而且是那种喜欢动手型的人，我猜——可能我错了——如果你在问自己这个问题，那你可能根本不是那种动手型的人。

So if you're an IC and you're a builder type, I would guess, and I may be wrong, that if you're asking yourself that question, you're probably not a builder.

因为我知道的那些在这个‘以构建为先’的个体贡献者世界中 thriving 的人，都对正在发生的这场变革充满情感上的着迷，因为过去设计总是被技术专长所限制，你总得依赖别人来实现你的愿景。

Because anyone I know who is thriving in this, like, builder first IC world, they are so emotionally enthralled by this change that is happening because design was always gated behind technical expertise, and it was always like you needed someone else to realize your vision.

我认识的很多在 Cash 和 Block 以及各处面试或工作的人，都会自己业余时间开发一些有趣的小项目，只是为了实验和享受技术带来的乐趣。

The a lot of people I know who are interviewing and or work at Cash and Block and everywhere, they are, like, shipping fun things on the side just to experiment and, like, have fun with the technology.

从个体贡献者的角度来看，这绝对是典型的构建者。

And and that is by definitely from an IC perspective, like, that is a builder.

他们倾向于采取行动。

And they bias towards action.

他们热爱创造。

They love making.

如果他们有半小时空闲，就会去摆弄点什么。

If they have half an hour free, they're gonna tinker on something there.

我想这可能是挑战这个问题的一个方式。

I guess that's, like, a way to probably, like, challenge the question a little bit.

但如果你在问自己这个问题，也许更好的问题是：你能否与那些技艺精湛、品味高超、以极快速度构建并不断迭代的人竞争？

But if you're asking yourself that, I think maybe maybe the better question is, can you compete with these people who are high craft, high taste, and building at incredibly high velocity and, like, figures spread to bind?

老实说，我觉得如果你做不到，就别掺和了，因为这可能不值得。

And, honestly, I would say if you can't, like, don't get in the game because it's probably not worth it.

你找不到机会的。

You're not gonna have a gig.

说实话，这是个很好的回答。

It's a good answer, honestly.

我尊重这种反驳，因为到了现在，构建本身就是纯粹对这份事业的热爱。

I I respect the pushback because building is pure love of the game at this point.

就像你说的，作为整个行业，我们曾经几乎都有一种想法：要是能实现自己的创意就好了，然后突然间，就爆发了。

It's like like you said, like, we've as an industry, we've, like, almost, like, had this coiling of, man, it'd be nice to build my ideas, and then all of a sudden, it was like, boom.

而现在你可以了。

And now you can.

这就像是，好吧。

And it's just like, okay.

不错。

Cool.

这个。

This one.

这个。

This one.

这个。

This one.

这个。

This one.

是的。

Yeah.

这很难竞争。

That's tough to compete with.

如果这件事不是自然而然发生的，而且你对此并不兴奋，那就很难竞争。

If if it doesn't come naturally and you're not excited about it, it's tough to compete with.

那接下来怎么办？

So then then what?

还有其他事情。

There's other things.

对吧？

Right?

所以，比如，在领导角色中，以及你所关注的其他一些角色中，技能集更多是关于如何塑造一个组织，以及为这些产出相同成果的个体贡献者制定战略方向。

So, like, you know, in in a leadership role and in some of the other archetypes which you're looking at, then the skill set is more so, like, how do I shape an organization and shape strategic direction for these ICs who are producing the same amount of stuff?

这本身就是一个技能体系。

Like, that's a skill set in itself.

我认为，没有专门的课程来教这个。

There's no, like, course of that, I don't think.

如果有的话，肯定有人赚得盆满钵满。

And if there is, know, someone's probably making a lot of money.

我认为这种能力在这个世界中极其宝贵。

I think that's a skill set that's incredibly valuable in this world.

这就像创意领导力，或者我不知道该怎么准确定义它，但我觉得这可能是人们可以进入的一个领域，不过会更难。

It's like creative leadership or, you know, I don't know what the answer is in exactly how to define that, but that's maybe a space which people I think could go into if in this world, but it's gonna be harder.

这确实是实话。

Like, that's the honest truth.

我觉得设计工作曾经很多，人人都需要设计。

Design jobs, I think, were plentiful and everyone needed design.

我觉得你会看到，由于人们可以用更少的资源实现更多，可做的项目会变少。

And I think what you're gonna see is there'll be fewer gigs because people can achieve more with less.

这对我来说意味着标准提高了，人们对产出的要求也更高了。

And that to me just means the standard gets higher and what people have to produce.

所以我看到的是，人们的素质变得越来越好。

So I just see the quality of people getting better and better.

所以我认为，在这个时代，设计行业普遍犯了一个错误，过于看重简历上的logo公司名称。

So I think it's also really important to, like, caveat that in this time that I think the design industry at large got really guilty of overvaluing people's resumes on a logo.

坦白说，我对某人曾经在哪家公司工作根本不关心。

And I transparently, like, don't give a shit about where someone worked.

他听到我这么说可能会生气，但我们最优秀的设计师之一，毫无疑问，我认为他将来会成为公司里最出色的个人贡献者之一。

He'll probably kill me for saying this, but, like, one of our best designers, hands down, and I think he'll come on to be, like, one of the best ICs in the company.

他之前的工作是为Yo Sushi设计东西。

His job before was, like, work designing stuff for Yo Sushi.

我不是说Yo Sushi不好，它挺棒的，但毕竟不是Airbnb或Meta那样的大公司。

No shade at Yo Sushi is cool, but it's not like the the Airbnb or the meta of the world.

我认为归根结底，真正的天赋、技艺和技能终会显现出来。

And I think it just comes back to raw talent shines through, and raw craft and raw skill shine through.

所以对于未来的个人贡献者，我认为他们会不断涌现出来。

So for the ICs of tomorrow, I think you'll just see them bubbling up.

我们最近招了一些构建者，他们根本没有上过大学，刚毕业就加入我们了。

And we had this, like we had these builder fellows join recently who are, like, like, no college, fresh end to working with us.

他们拥有的技能简直就像万能工具刀一样全面。

And the amount of, like, the skills which they have, they're just like Swiss army nuts.

这太吓人了。

It's terrifying.

他们真的什么都能做。

They can literally do it all.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，没错，我知道这有点啰嗦，但我确实认为，作为这个新时代的设计领导者，我们不应该过分执着于简历上的公司logo以及与此相关的那些废话，而应该直接关注一个人实际的技能、建造能力，以及我这边的坦诚态度。

So, yeah, I I know that's, a bit of a long winded thing, but I do think it's important for us as, like, design leaders in this new world to not be overly attached to the resume logos and all of that kind of bullshit associated with it and just look at raw skills of someone building and transparency from my side.

我知道我代表了我们所有团队成员的观点：我们根本不关心一个人曾在哪家公司工作。

And I know I speak for all the blocks that we don't care where someone works.

我们也不关心一个人住在哪里。

We don't care where someone lives.

我们只关心：你是否有意愿投身于这种高节奏、高水准的环境？你是否有良好的品味，并且能真正把事情做成？

It's just like, do you have the appetite to work in this high velocity, you know, high craft environment, and do you have good taste and could pull it off?

所以，希望这种情况能改变。

So, hopefully, that changes.

但再说一遍，我觉得有必要强调一下这一点。

But, again, I thought that was an important PSA to say.

不。

No.

我觉得这很棒。

I think it's great.

我很高兴你说了这些，因为未来确实有很多令人畏惧的理由，但这也是值得乐观的原因。

I'm glad you said it because there's a lot of reasons to be intimidated about the future, but that is the reason to be optimistic.

这简直是让竞争环境变得真正平等了。

Like, this is the great leveling of the playing field.

就在今天，我们刚刚发布了一期节目，采访了一位通过人才网络获得了一份很棒的创始设计师职位的人，他的简历简直一塌糊涂。

Literally, just today, we released an episode with this guy who just landed a really cool founding designer role through the talent network, and his resume sucked.

好的。

Okay.

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

他会的

He would

他难道不会因为我这么说而感到不舒服吗？

wouldn't he even feel bad about me saying it.

他根本就不喜欢他之前那家公司。

Like, he he didn't like the company he was at.

那家公司水平很低，但他自己主动做了一个非常出色的作品集和一个很酷的副项目，还花了很多心思打磨作品集的细节，这已经完全足够了。

It was very low craft, and he just went out and made a baller portfolio and a really cool side project and sweat a bunch of details on his portfolio side, and it was more than enough for me.

好吧。

Like, okay.

这人真的很厉害。

This guy is really good.

什么？

What the heck?

这 guy 真是宝藏。

This guy's a gem.

他会超越那些……

And he will fly past people who Yep.

你知道吗，我敢说，也许那些人过去五年一直在 Meta 做着产品的一小部分，而他是个通才，AI 正在每个方向上加速他的成长。

You know, dare I say, maybe have spent the last five years at Meta on a tiny little slice of the product because he is like this generalist that AI is accelerating in every single direction.

这种类型的人，太让人兴奋了。

That archetype, so, so exciting.

而且可能是几年来第一次，这是他们的时刻。

And for the first time in in a few years probably, like, this is their moment.

如果你就是这种人，现在就是你的时机。

Like, if you are that person, this is your time right now.

我最近又回到了 Twitter，经常给那些我看到他们作品的人发私信。

I've recently joined Twitter again, and I, like, DM quite a lot of people where I just their work pops up.

我觉得他们的作品太棒了。

I'm like, their work is sick.

我不会去看他们的领英主页。

And I and I don't look at their LinkedIn.

我只是觉得，咱们聊聊就行。

I don't it's just like, let's chat.

很多人就因此得到了工作。

And people will get jobs off the back of that.

这并不是说你必须不停地发布所有东西，但它确实在积累，我真的说不清楚。

And it's not saying, know, you have to post all your stuff all the time, but it just builds and it and it just I don't know.

我只是觉得，现在才华正在以以前从未有过的速度脱颖而出。

I just think you just see craft cutting through a rate that it didn't before.

以前，你可能会去一家大科技公司，经历十轮面试，每个人都会问你：讲讲这个。

And previously, perhaps, you know, you would go to a large tech company and there would be, like, 10 rounds of interviews and everyone would be like, tell us about this.

讲讲这个。

Tell us about this.

以前进中情局都比进一些大科技公司的面试容易。

And it was easier to get into the CIA than some large tech company interviews.

而现在，只需要展示你做了什么。

Whereas now it's just like, show us what you built.

我绝对喜欢这种过去十年被打破的感觉——当时设计变得官僚化、过度专业化，而现在我们似乎正在回归本质。

And I I absolutely love what feels to me like the smashing down of the last ten years and where it beke design became bureaucratic, overly professionalized, and now it feels like we're getting back to basics.

这对我来说非常振奋，也许这就是我目前在工作中如此充满激情的原因。

And that to me is just so energizing, and that's probably why I'm so hyped at the moment at work.

我想回到

I wanna return back to

你之前提到的

something that you

一件事。

said earlier.

你谈到了Cash和Square之间的联系。

And you were talking about the connection between Cash and Square.

还有邻里社区。

And Neighborhoods.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，我记得几周前你发过一条推文，我特意标记了，你提到你最近一直在思考如何在Square和Cash之间建立一种共享的DNA，甚至是视觉上的DNA。

And and, like, there was a tweet that I had circled that you put out, I don't remember, a couple weeks ago where you just talked about how something you're thinking a lot about is, you know, creating a shared DNA, like visual DNA even between Square and Cache.

考虑到我们所处的规模，这并不是一个简单的小项目或倡议。

That's not a small project or initiative to lead given the scale that we're operating at.

所以你能谈谈你在这一方面具体在思考哪些问题吗？

So can you just shine a light on some of the things that you're thinking through on that front?

这不仅仅是为改变而改变设计语言。

It's not just, like, changing design language for changing changing design language and sake.

这是最好的表达方式了。

That's, like, the best way to to to phrase it.

如果你想想我之前提到的那个问题——连接柜台的两端，其中确实涉及客户体验和设计语言的部分。就像苹果设备，当你从iPhone切换到iPad再到电视时，尽管它们的操作系统和核心体验不同，但那种相似感让这些切换显得非常流畅。

If you think about that problem, which I talked about earlier of, like, connecting both sides of the counter, there is a customer experience and, like, design language part to it that what works about the Apple devices when you go from, like, an iPhone to an iPad to a TV is there's this feeling of similarity even though they're different OSs and core experiences that make these handoffs feel, like, very seamless.

以前，由于Cash App和Square在公司功能整合之前一直相对独立，因此没有动力去思考它们之间的连接。

A while ago, because Cash App and Square were pretty separate until we functionalized the company, there was no incentive to think about how that connected.

对吧？

Right?

所以，它们在很大程度上是彼此独立的。

So they were, by and large, like, separate things.

所以，如果你当时设计了一个非常流畅的过渡体验，那感觉就像是在Toast和Venmo之间切换。

So if you had have designed, like, this very smooth handoff at that time, it would have felt like you were, you know, handing off between Toast to Venmo.

对吧？

Right?

因为它们是两家不同的公司。

Because it's two separate companies.

但实际上，Square和Cash App是一家公司，我们会把它们连接起来。

So, actually, like, Square and Cash App are a single company, and we're gonna connect to them.

这将会成为有史以来最酷的事情之一。

It's gonna be one of the coolest things ever.

但我们必须从客户的角度确保体验是无缝的。

But we need to make sure from a customer standpoint that the experience feels seamless.

显而易见的答案是，哦，那就干脆让它们完全一样吧。

The obvious answer there is, oh, let's just make them both the same.

让我们让Cash App和Square使用相同的设计语言和系统。

Let's just make Cash App and Square, like, have the same design languages, have the same systems.

但如果你深入思考这一点，就会发现，等等。

But then if you really interrogate that, it's like, oh, wait.

Cash App是当今最具文化影响力的品牌之一，深受年轻一代的喜爱。

Cash App is, like, one of the most crazy culturally relevant brands that appeals to, like, a very young generation.

我们拥有美国25%的青少年用户，而Square则是面向企业的专业软件，用户每天在应用中停留长达八小时。

We've got 25% of US teens, and then Square is, a hardcore working b to b software where people are in the app for, like, eight hours a day.

所以如果我们开始到处使用夸张的插画和大量留白，可能会让用户感到厌烦。

So if we start, like, you know, dropping crazy illustrations and tons of white space everywhere, we might know, people might get annoyed.

因此，我们团队开始讨论：那么，该如何将它们连接起来呢？

So what we started talking about as a group is, like, well, how do you connect them?

我认为这归结为更深层的战略驱动因素，而劳伦参与其中并对此充满热情，因为设计的内涵远不止于此。

And I think this is where it comes down to that deeper layer of, like, strategic drivers, and this is something that Lauren was involved in and deeply passionate about is actually design runs deeper than that.

你可以开始思考我们所说的‘共享基因’，即它们是兄弟姐妹，而不是双胞胎。

And you can start to think about what we call shared DNA and this idea that it's siblings, not twins.

如果把这个作为类比，我们的意思是，存在一些共享的基础，让产品感觉像是同一个设计体系下的产物，比如字体、网格的某些基础标记方法。

And if you think about that as the analogy, what we're saying is there is shared foundations that make it feel like it's a block designed product, whether that's type, some shared, like, base tokens approach to the grid.

而在这些基础上，又叠加了各自独特的个性，让每个品牌都能脱颖而出，同时也让用户在两个产品间切换时不会觉得像是在两个不同公司之间跳转。

And then there are these unique personalities that get put on top of it that allow each of the brands to shine, but also make that handover moment not feel like you're jumping between two different companies.

所以，我想这就是它有趣的地方，因为这真正体现了设计作为一种战略资产——你用设计来解决客户问题，也解决商业问题，即如何连接柜台的两端。

So that's, I guess, why it's it's interesting because it really is, like, design as a strategic asset because you're using design to solve a customer problem and to solve a business problem, which is how do you connect both sides of the counter.

我特别喜欢最新版本中一个体现个性的细节，就是这些个性化的支付页面。

One of the personality glimpses that I really liked from the latest release was these personalized payment pages.

你能给我们讲讲这个设计背后的由来吗？

Can you just give us the backstory there?

像这样的项目是如何产生、获得批准并最终实现的？

Like, how does a project like that come up, get greenlit, be brought to life?

那要怎么做才能实现这样的项目呢？

Like, what does it take to pull something like that off?

因为这完全超出了许多设计师、尤其是从事B2B业务的设计师通常能接触到的责任范围。

Because it definitely exists so far outside of the traditional box of responsibilities that a lot of designers, especially people working on b two b, get to even sniff.

这更像是一个个人化的案例。

That's like a personal one.

我觉得我们还能走得更远。

I I still think we can take it even further.

归根结底，这又回到了创造性解决问题这一点上。

Again, it just goes back to that, like, creative problem solving again.

对吧？

Right?

大多数支付行为，本质上就是你我之间的资金转移，已经变得像商品一样普遍。

Most payments, essentially, like, moving money between you and I, it's become a commodity.

所以问题是，如何让你们之间的资金转移体验不再那么商品化？

So the prompt there is how do you start to make the experience of moving money between you and I feel less commoditized?

如果你和我被要求一起就这个问题进行头脑风暴，你可能会说，嘿，要是你能发送一条特别的消息呢？

And if if you and I were just announced to, like, ideate on that, you'd be you probably said, oh, well, what if you could, like, send a special message?

然后你会说，好吧。

And then you're like, okay.

不错。

Cool.

所以我们实际上研究了人们在付款备注中发送的消息。

So what we did is we actually looked at the messages that people were sending in their payment notes.

我们整理了一份清单并进行了汇总。

We pulled a list and aggregated it.

同样，借助人工智能，我们能够分析数以百万计的付款备注，找出人们转账的原因。

Again, like, using AI, we're able to look at, you know, millions and millions of payment notes and find out, like, why people are moving money.

你会发现其中有很多内容都是功能性的。

And you see there's a lot of things that are kind of functional.

对吧？

Right?

比如房租。

So, like, rent.

没人会为房租庆祝。

You know, no one's celebrating rent.

但你也看到，还有很多非常情感化的内容。

But you also see there was a lot of very emotional things.

比如毕业、生日、为了特殊原因的聚餐。

Like, for example, graduation, birthdays, dinners for a special reason.

对吧？

Right?

然后你顺着这条线索思考，为什么这种体验不能超越这种单调、功利的形式呢？

And then you kinda pull that thread and you're like, why shouldn't that experience be more than just this, like, sad utilitarian thing?

它确实不应该如此。

And it shouldn't.

所以我们决定设计一系列定制化素材，来呼应人们转账时所承载的这些时刻。

So we were like, let's design a bunch of custom assets that mirror all of these moments that people are sending money.

这就是我们开始尝试验证它是否有效、用户是否喜欢它的起点。

And that's where we started to, like, see if it worked and see if customers are loving it.

用户确实很喜欢它。

Customers do love it.

他们都是它的忠实支持者。

They're, like, big advocates for it.

我认为我们会继续推动这个理念：它应该是完全个性化的，转账不应该在整个余下的时间里都变成一种普通的商品。

And I think we will continue to push this idea that it's completely personalized, and moving money doesn't need to be this, like, commodity for the rest over the rest of the year.

你提到的很多关于寻找共同DNA的内容，其实人们更倾向于把它归入设计系统这个类别。

A lot of the things that you're talking about related to maybe finding the shared DNA, you know, people translate more into this, like, design systems bucket.

我知道劳伦正在负责这项工作，做得非常好。

I know Lauren is leading that, doing a great job there.

但现金相关的产品产出的很多东西，说实话，相当古怪。

And yet, much of what comes out of cash specifically is, like, frankly bizarre.

你知道的？

You know?

这真的非常非常不同。

It's just very, very different.

你能稍微谈谈这种张力吗？

Can you talk a little bit about, like, that tension?

这两者在高层面上是如何共存的？一方面需要构建可规模化执行的系统，另一方面又要让核心品牌保持深度创意和独特的表达方式？

Like, how do both of those things operate at a high level where you have this, you know, the systems required for craft at scale while also trying to be deeply creative in the core brand and what that expression looks like?

这可以说是每一个科技公司现在都应该深入思考的最根本的挑战之一。

It's like one of the most existential challenges that I think every tech company should be thinking about deeply right now.

我认为，让产品对客户来说更具表现力和独特性更好，这样他们才能对你的产品产生情感联结，而不是追求一致性和本质上被商品化的东西。

I think it's better to be on the side of expressive and unique to customers so that they have an emotional attachment to your product versus, like, you know, consistent and essentially, like, you know, commoditized.

是的。

Yeah.

氛围可编码。

Vibe codable.

氛围可编码。

Vibe codable.

是的。

Yeah.

比如，我目前设计的最喜爱的应用之一就是Bump。

Like, that's genuinely so for example, one of my favorite apps that I design at the moment that is out there is, like, Bump.

我不知道你有没有用过Bump。

I don't know if you use Bump.

它是个地图应用。

It's, like, Map app.

我见过那位设计师。

And I met the designer.

对吧？

Right?

他就像，嗯，是的。

He's like he's like, yeah.

我们就是随便搞，不管那么多了。

We just we just YOLO anything.

就像，就是说，是的。

Like, it's just like Yeah.

我们能把它搞得有多奇怪？

How weird how weird can we make it?

周五的那期嘉宾是朱利安·马丁。

Friday's episode is with Julien Martin.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, no way.

太有趣了。

That's so funny.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

非常敬佩。

Well, mad respect.

我觉得这是一个很好的例子，我觉得你必须这样做，而且我们确实在强迫自己走出舒适区。

I think that that's a good example of, like, I just think you have to, and we're definitely forcing ourselves to get out of our comfort zones.

我想这可能是描述它的正确方式，因为传统的逻辑是，一致性就是无情地坚持一个非常严格的设计系统，这才是保持一致性的唯一方式。

Guess I it's maybe the right way to describe it because the traditional logic was, oh, consistency is ruthlessly adhering to this very strict design system was the only way to adhere consistency.

对吧？

Right?

那段时间里，这就像真理一样。

That was like the truth for a while.

但我不认为这一定是真的。

And I don't think that is necessarily true.

设计系统必须能够灵活调整，允许更多的表达空间。

Like, design systems have to be able to flex and allow for more expression.

如果再加上新时代的视角，我认为在新世界中创造用户粘性的主要方式之一，就是打造完全独一无二的应用体验。

And then I think if I put the new age layer on it, I believe one of the primary ways which you will create lock in in in the new world is creating apps that feel completely one of one.

所以我经常提到Cash App，我希望在六个月内、一年内，每个人在饭桌上打开他们的Cash App时，把手机放在桌上，每个人的界面都完全不同。

So what I talk a lot about Cash App is I want in six months, a year, I want everyone who's sitting at a dinner table to open their Cash Apps and put them on the table, and every single one looks different.

这是他们个人身份的完整表达。

It's a complete expression of their personal identity.

如果你仔细想想，我们其实一直有这种传统。

And if you think about it, like, we actually have the heritage of doing that.

我们有我们的卡片。

We have our cards.

对吧？

Right?

你可能见过员工借记卡。

You've probably seen the crew debit cards.

你可以自定义它们。

You can customize them.

你可以在上面绘画。

You can draw on them.

事实上，当你思考软件开发的未来以及生成式UI的发展方向时，未来没有任何东西会阻止我们创造这些完全独一无二的体验。

And actually, when you think about the future of software development and where it's going with generative UI, there is nothing in the future that's gonna prevent us from creating these completely one of one experiences.

所以，这目前是我最关注的事情，我相信我们很快就能实现——每个Cash App都会显得独一无二，完全围绕用户个人定制。

So that's that's what, like, is top of mind for me at the moment, and I do think we will get there relatively quickly that every Cash App does feel unique and completely designed around the person.

从商业角度来看，我认为这非常有趣，因为它能建立起一种更深、更难以量化的、与产品之间的情感连接，就像你的衣橱一样。

And then from a business perspective, why I think that's super interesting is it creates this, like, deeper, harder to quantify emotional connection with a product that is the same as, like, your wardrobe.

衣服在很大程度上是个人身份的表达。

Clothes are by and large, like an expression of personal identity.

我们已经看到一种趋势，尤其是在年轻群体中，数字身份和物理身份一样有价值。

We've seen a trend, particularly in younger audiences, that digital identity is as valuable as physical identity.

你只要看看Fortnite商店的数据就能明白。

You could just need to look at the Fortnite store to see the numbers there.

所以，我认为从我的角度来看，我深信并押注于：在不远的将来，界面将是定制化的、独一无二的，至少在Cash App中，它将完全代表你的个人身份。

So, you know, I think from my side, I have a very deep belief and a bet that interfaces in the not too distant future will be bespoke, completely one of one, and at least in Cash App's instance, a complete representation of your personal identity.

我的大脑已经在想了，这在B2B领域到底有多适用呢？

I I mean, like, my brain is already running like, man, how how applicable is this to b two b?

你知道的？

You know?

我们打算在这上面走多远？

Like, how far are we gonna go into this?

这太适用了。

It's it's it's so applicable.

我觉得是的。

I think it is.

所以，我爸爸现在还在经营一家很小的古董店。

It's so so my dad, he still runs this a tiny little small business, an antique shop.

对吧？

Right?

以前他的选择是自己弄个网站，但他根本没法维护。

And his options previously were he could have his own little website, which was so difficult for him to manage.

他可不是搞技术的人。

Like, he's not a technological guy.

他可是个古董商啊。

He's an antique dealer for god's sake.

对吧？

Right?

比如，他能想象出来。

Like, he can kinda picture it.

对吧？

Right?

或者他可以把他的古董上传到某个大型 conglomerate，让它们标准化体验，而他个人的风格、店铺特色以及投入的全部努力，最终都沦为一个商品化、类似 DoorDash 的平台。

Or he could upload to his antiques to, like, some big conglomerate that standardizes the experience and his, like, personal touch and his shop and, like, all of the effort he puts into it basically just goes into, like, this commoditized, like, DoorDash esque platform.

对我来说，这根本不是 B2B 软件的未来。

Like, that to me is just, like, not the future of b to b software.

如果我爸爸能创建一个完全定制的解决方案和软件，让他服务客户，建立一个体现他风格和个性的网站，那将彻底改变他整个生意的走向。

Like, know, if if my dad was able to create a completely bespoke, you know, solution and and piece of software that allowed him to serve his customers and create a website that was a representation of his style and identity, it would have changed his entire course of his business.

但他没能做到。

But he wasn't able to do that.

你觉得未来人们能实现这一点吗？

And I can you when you think in the future that people will be able to do that?

甚至在Square，我们目前也在和大量客户交流、开发产品，可以明显看出人们希望获得高度定制化的界面，尤其是在B2B领域，因为每一家餐厅都不尽相同。

And even at Square, we're talking with lots of customers at the moment and building stuff, and you can kind of see the direction of travel that people want very bespoke interfaces as much for b to b because every restaurant is different.

我觉得这正是未来设计领域最大的机遇之一，那就是：如何打造这样的产品，又如何确保它们能以一种连贯统一的方式整合在一起？

And I just think that's, like, one of the biggest opportunities ahead for design in general, which is, like, how do how do you make this stuff, And then how do you make sure it comes together in a cohesive way?

无论哪个行业，将创造力作为竞争优势，这种趋势似乎会越来越明显，作为一名设计师，这让我感到非常兴奋。

Creativity as a competitive advantage regardless of industry does feel like it's going to become more of a thing, which that's it is exciting as a designer.

你知道吗？

You know?

因为如果你的产品没有某种独特之处，虽然确实还存在一大类由上而下的企业合同，它们始终会存在。

Because if your if your if your product doesn't have something that obviously, there's this bucket of top down enterprise contracts that are always going to exist.

但市场上选择太多了，而其中一个选择就是自己动手打造。

But there is an abundance of choice, and one of the choices is make it yourself.

所以你的产品必须足够出色。

So it's gotta be good.

就像你提到的，设计师的标准在提升，产品的标准，尤其是SaaS产品的标准，也会随之提高。

You know, the bar in the same way that you were talking about the bar is rising for designers, it also is going to rise for products specifically SaaS probably.

我希望如此。

I hope so.

也许我错了。

Maybe I'm wrong.

我真的、真的希望如此。

I really, really hope so.

我只是觉得，以前软件确实是这样。

I just I just think software was yeah.

以前你必须大规模生产软件，几乎对所有客户都采用一刀切的模式。

You had to mass produce it previously essentially, and it had to be one size fits all for almost every customer.

如果你在Workday签订了一份价值一千万的合同，可能还能获得一些定制化服务。

And if you were in Workday and signing a contract for, like, 10,000,000, you probably got some customization to it.

但总体而言，用的都是同一个产品。

But by and large, it's, the same product.

我只是觉得，软件的创建方式正在受到挑战，这让我感到无比振奋。

And I just think that whole notion of how software is created is is kind of being challenged, and that to me is just so energizing.

如果我不相信创造力在新世界中扮演着角色，我会辞职放弃。

If if I didn't believe that creativity had a role in this new world, I would quit my job and give up.

我妻子是一位出色的烘焙师。

And my wife's an amazing baker.

我会全力支持她去做烘焙。

I would just support her doing, like, bakery.

说实话。

Like, honestly.

但我真心相信，如果更多企业能以创造力为引领，并将其作为规模化实现成果的工具，世界会变得更好。

But I genuinely believe that the world would be a better place if more businesses really led with creativity and used it as a tool to drive the outcomes at scale.

这正是我个人真正热衷的事情。

And that's really what fires me up personally.

你知道吗？

It's you know?

我知道，像设计师创始人这样的刻板印象其实很少见。

There's very few I know, like, the designer founder trope.

设计师出身的创始人非常少。

There's very few designer founders.

董事会中的设计师也非常少。

There's very few designers on boards.

我认为设计常被误解为只是调整像素，但其实不是。

And I think design is often misconceived as just pixel pushing, and it's not.

它其实是创造性地解决问题。

It's, like, creative problem solving.

整个设计行业能够以非常不同的方式看待问题，并采取截然不同的方法来应对。

The design industry at large can look at problems in a very different way and come at them in a very different way.

这显然是一种技能，能让世界比今天变得更好——而现在的情况是，每个购物中心里都是庞大的企业集团，社区企业难以繁荣，软件都是千篇一律的，产品也是批量生产的复制品。

And that's, like, a skill set that transparently, think, would make the world a much better place than today where it's, like, you know, just giant conglomerates in every shopping mall and, like, not enough neighborhood businesses thriving and, you know, one size fits all software and mass produced clones.

我觉得这里有一个机会，不必太过哲学化，就是让设计去对抗过去十年那种全是大集团的趋势，回归到以创造力为核心的理念——社区企业、本地化事物，我觉得这让我非常振奋。

Like, I think there's an opportunity here generally, not to go, like, too philosophical, is to, like for design to, like, push against that tide of the last ten years that it's, you know, it's all conglomerates and go back towards more of, like, creativity at the heart of everything, neighborhood businesses, neighborhood stuff, and and I think that's very, very energizing to me.

我在推特上看到有人，我想是昨晚，把这称为利基经济，我完全采纳这个说法，因为我觉得这很好。

I saw someone on Twitter, I think actually it was last night, referred to this as the niche economy, and I'm totally adopting it because I think that's good.

这对设计师来说非常相关，因为即使我们能够准确地识别出问题——作为整体而言，我们在这方面相当擅长。

It's so relevant for designers because even if we were able to correctly identify a problem, which as a whole, like, given the population, we're pretty good at.

对吧？

Right?

这正是我们的专长。

Like, that's what we do.

但之前这并不重要，因为真正去解决问题仍需要高昂的前期成本和技能门槛，而如今，成本变成了象征性的，时间成本也大幅降低。

It didn't really matter because there was still such an upfront cost and skill gap to actually be able to go and solve the problem where all of a sudden now it's token cost, and the time cost is driven down.

我们不再依赖他人来真正解决问题。

We are not reliant on other people to actually go and solve the problem.

所以我确实希望会出现大量由设计师创立的企业，它们不一定非得是估值十亿美元的公司。

So I I do hope that there are so many design created businesses that don't necessarily have to be these billion dollar companies.

这并不重要。

It doesn't matter.

对吧？

Right?

这是利基经济。

It's the niche economy.

我认为利基经济可以由设计师推动，我对这一领域的未来非常期待。

I think the niche economy can be driven by designers, and I'm very excited about the future for that.

我喜欢这个说法。

I love that phrase.

这几乎就像我们在按下录制键之前讨论的那样，我当时在想，未来的科技公司可能会像快消品公司一样，两者其实并没有太大不同——究竟是未来五年内有一款软件能服务十亿人，像Meta那样，还是被拆分成三十个软件，各自解决更小的利基市场？

And it's almost like we were saying that is before we kind of press record, I was talking about the I think future tech companies might be like CPGs, and it's it's not it's not dissimilar to that where it's like, actually, is it one piece of software in five years' time that serves a billion people like Meta does, or is it split up into 30 pieces of software that solve much smaller niches?

所以你会去使用，比如你的健身应用就在这里。

So you go to, you know, your fitness app is booked here.

你的本地社区就是你居住的地方。

Like, your local community is just your where you live.

对我来说，这感觉是一个更具竞争力、更好的世界，我希望它能实现，但也可能被这些大型AI公司吞噬。

Like, that to me feels like a much more competitive and better world, which I hope exists, but it also could just not get eaten by these big by these big AI companies.

但是

But

我们走着瞧吧。

We'll see.

我认为，为了世界的利益，如果朝这个方向发展会非常棒。

I think for the good of the world, it would be amazing if it went this way.

老实说，我希望设计能在塑造这一未来中继续发挥作用。

And I hope design continues to have a role in shaping it, to be honest.

Canvas 一直让我感到无比振奋。

Canvas has been incredibly energizing.

感谢你今天来访，给了我很多思考的空间。

I appreciate you coming on today and giving me a lot to think about.

而且，更多地了解你们的运作方式以及正在发生的一切，都让我感到非常着迷。

And also just learning more about how you all operate and everything that's going on has been just fascinating.

所以，感谢你今天来访，揭开帷幕，与我们畅谈。

So thanks for coming on, pulling back the curtain, talking with us today.

我非常感激，也谢谢你们的聆听，希望你们觉得这次对话很愉快。

Deeply appreciate it, and thanks for listening, and I hope, it was enjoyable for you guys.

在你走之前，

Before I let you go,

我想花一分钟向你介绍一下我最喜爱的产品，因为我经常被问到我的工具栈有哪些。

I wanna take just one minute to run you through my favorite products because I'm constantly asked what's in my stack.

Framer 是我构建网站的方式。

Framer is how I build websites.

Genway 是我做研究的方式。

Genway is how I do research.

Granola 是我在评审时做笔记的方式。

Granola is how I take notes during crit.

Jitter 是我为设计添加动画的方式。

Jitter is how I animate my designs.

Lovable 是我用代码实现想法的方式。

Lovable is how I build my ideas in code.

Maven 是我寻找设计灵感的方式。

Maven is how I find design inspiration.

Paper 让我像创意人一样设计，而 Raycast 在每一步都为我提供快捷方式。

Paper is how I design like a creative, and Raycast is my shortcut every step of the way.

我现在亲自挑选了这些公司，以便能够全职制作这些节目。

Now I've hand selected these companies so that I can do these episodes full time.

因此，到目前为止，支持节目的最主要方式就是去了解它们。

So by far, the number one way to support the show is to check them out.

你可以在 dive.club/partners 找到完整列表。

You can find the full list at dive.club/partners.