蒂姆·库克：执掌全球最大企业苹果的秘诀

是谁干的？

Who done it?

犯罪谜题。

Crime conundrums.

血腥暴乱。

Murderous mayhem.

你为什么用那种腔调说话？

Why are doing that voice?

我只是在进入

I'm just getting in

状态

the mood for

我们的新播客。

our new podcast.

他们写的谋杀案。

Murder they wrote.

嘿。

Hey.

我是劳拉·威克莫尔。

I'm Laura Wickmore.

我是伊恩·斯特林。

And I'm Ian Sterling.

认识我们的人都知道，我们对真实犯罪案件非常着迷。

Now anyone who knows us knows we are obsessed with true crime.

我们将通过新播客探索历史上最凶残罪犯的邪恶行径。

We're here with a new podcast exploring the dastardly deeds of history's most atrocious criminals.

节目中将充满谜团、疯狂和令人惊呼的时刻。

There'll be mystery, madness, and moments of oh my god.

《谋杀他们写的》由劳拉·惠特莫尔和伊恩·斯特林主持。

Murder they wrote with Laura Whitmore and Ian Sterling.

请在BBC Sounds上收听。

Listen on BBC Sounds.

BBC之声，音乐、广播、播客应有尽有。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

嘿，大家好。

Hey, guys.

惊喜来了。

Surprise.

我是杜阿。

It's Dua here.

我们回来为大家带来一期特别的《杜阿·利帕为您服务》节目。

We're back for one more special episode of Dua Lipa at your service.

这一期节目我简直不敢相信我们真的在做。

This is an episode that I can't even believe we're doing.

对此我们感到非常非常兴奋。

We're very, very excited about this.

我现在

I'm currently

在

in

伦敦。

London.

我正坐在沙发上，刚收到一条五分钟前的短信，发信人是即将来与我进行访谈的嘉宾——不是别人，正是苹果公司CEO蒂姆·库克。

I'm on my sofa, and I just got the five minute text from the man who's coming to join me to do an interview who is none other than CEO of Apple, Tim Cook.

这太超现实了。

This is surreal.

我非常兴奋。

I'm very excited.

我有点紧张。

I'm a little bit nervous.

不知道会发生什么，但我觉得这会是一场非常有趣的对话。

I don't know what to expect, but I think it's gonna be a really fun conversation.

希望大家喜欢这期《Dua Lipa为您服务》的特别节目，与我非常非常非常非常特别的嘉宾蒂姆·库克共度的时光。

And I hope you guys enjoy this very special episode of Dua Lipa At Your Service with my very, very, very, very, very special guest, Tim Cook.

蒂姆？

Tim?

是的。

Yes.

谢谢，这太

Thank you It's so

高兴能来到这里。

so great to be here.

说实话，能让你来到我家坐在沙发上真是太不可思议了。

Honestly, it's so amazing to have you here at home on my sofa.

我很喜欢这里。

And I love it.

这里很美。

It's beautiful.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我得说在这次采访之前，我上网查了苹果公司的市值。

I I have to say like before this interview, I went on the Internet to see what Apple is worth.

结果令人震惊。

And it's astonishing.

它是全球市值最高的公司，估值约3万亿美元。

It's the biggest company in the world with a valuation of around $3,000,000,000,000.

单是这个数字本身就令人难以置信。

It's an incredible figure just in itself.

我想这比某些国家的总量还要大，这么说可能更直观些。

And I guess it's more than entire countries to to kind of put it into perspective.

大约相当于英国或法国的GDP。

It's it's about the same as the GDP of The UK or France.

我知道你在英国期间只接受这一次采访，能邀请到你真是让我欣喜万分。

And I understand that you're only doing one interview while you're here in The UK, and I'm just so delighted to have you here.

非常感谢你愿意抽时间陪我。

I'm so glad you would spend time with me.

什么？

What?

我是认真的。

I'm serious.

当然。

Of course.

我是认真的。

I'm serious.

不。

No.

这真的非常令人兴奋，因为我真的很期待深入探讨你现在和未来关注的一些问题，以及你在苹果25年中学到的关于技术、生活和领导力的经验。

This is this is really exciting because I'm really looking forward to just digging into, like, some of the issues that you're looking into now and in the future, and as well as, like, what you've learned about tech and life and leadership in your twenty five years at Apple.

这简直不可思议。

Like, it's it's incredible.

我们开始吧？

Should we just get started?

当然。

Absolutely.

是吗？

Yeah?

绝对。

Absolutely.

我迫不及待要开始了。

I'm raring to jump in.

可不是每天都能让世界最大公司的CEO坐在我家客厅。

So it's not every day that I have, like, the CEO of the world's biggest company in my living room.

所以我得好好把握这个机会，请教些关于平衡工作生活的建议。

So I should probably take a little bit of advantage of that and get some tips to help with my own work life balance.

我想知道，像苹果这样的公司日常运营是怎样的？

And I was wondering, what is the day to day running of a company like Apple?

能带我了解你的一天吗？从你醒来到入睡，蒂姆·库克的生活是怎样的？

And take me a little bit through your day, like the day in the life of Tim Cook from the moment you wake up to the very end of the day?

我起得非常早。

I get up really early.

我是个早起的人。

How I'm an early bird.

大概四五点左右。

Like it for four to five.

哇。

Wow.

我用第一个小时处理邮件。

And I spend my first hour doing email.

我对这件事非常坚持。

And I'm pretty religious about doing this.

我会阅读大量客户和员工的邮件，客户会告诉我他们喜欢我们的地方或希望我们改进的地方。

I read emails from a lot of customers and employees, and the customers are telling me things that they love about us or things that they want changed about us.

员工们会给我提建议，这是了解社区感受的好方法，我非常喜欢。

Employees are giving me ideas, but it's a way to stay grounded in terms of what the community is feeling, and I love it.

然后之后，你处理完邮件就去办公室，基本上就是更多类似

And then after, so you do emails, and then you go into the office, and it's just more kind of

嗯，在去办公室之前，我会先去锻炼。

Well, before I go into the office, I go work out.

好的，所以是处理邮件，然后锻炼？

Okay, so emails, working out?

锻炼。

Working out.

我通常会在健身房花一小时做力量训练，还专门请了人督促我做那些我不太想做的项目

I spend an hour in the gym, usually doing strength training, and I've got somebody to really push me to do things I don't wanna

然后

do, and

在那段时间里我完全不工作。

I do no work during that period of time at all.

我从不查看手机。

I never check my phone.

好的。

Okay.

我完全专注于锻炼。

I'm just totally focused on working out.

然后

And

完成这些后，洗完澡等等，我就去办公室，开始和我喜欢的人一起工作。

after doing that, after showering, etcetera, I go into the office, and I start working with people I love.

与能激发你最好一面的人共事是一种难以置信的感觉，而且我们都坚信一加一等于三。

And it's an incredible feeling to work with people that bring out the best in you, and that fundamentally we all believe that one plus one equals three.

你知道，你的想法加上我的想法比各自单独的想法更好。

You know, that your idea plus my idea is better than the individual ideas of their own.

我喜欢这样。

I love that.

类似这样的互动整天都在进行，我会把一天的时间分配给产品团队、营销团队或高管团队，要么处理当天的问题，要么希望我们更多地把精力放在未来的事务上。嗯。

And so things like that go on all day long, and I'll divide the day in terms of spending time with product teams or spending time with marketing teams or spending time with the executive team, and we're either handling issues of the day or hopefully our balance is more on working on future stuff Mhmm.

并且思考接下来要做什么。

And thinking about what's next.

我想稍微回溯一下，因为你是在一个蓝领家庭长大的

I wanna go back to the start a little bit because you grew up in a blue collar family

是的。

I did.

在阿拉巴马州的小镇，而现在你领导着世界上最有价值的公司。

In small town Alabama, and now you're heading world's most valuable company.

我是说，你走过的这段旅程相当不可思议。

I mean, it's it's a pretty incredible journey that you've been on.

你能跟我讲讲你的成长经历吗？比如它是如何为你铺就这条道路的？

Can you tell me a little bit about your upbringing and, like, how it set you up on this road?

那确实是一段曲折的旅程。

It was really a jagged journey.

我的童年，我来自一个非常普通的家庭背景。

My childhood, I come from a very modest background.

我母亲在药房当店员，父亲在造船厂工作，我们家是典型的蓝领家庭，充满爱但经济拮据，这就是我的童年。

My mother worked in a pharmacy as a clerk, and my father worked in a shipyard, and very blue collar family, lots of love, little money, was sort of the childhood.

他们真正教会了我努力工作的价值，在我很小的时候就灌输给我：工作能带来重大意义，成为你生命中的重要部分。

And they really taught me the value of hard work, and instilled in me at an extremely young age that working could bring you great purpose and be a key part of your life.

实际上我13岁就开始送报纸，半夜起床挨家挨户投递，这样人们早晨起床时就能看到报纸。

And I started actually with a paper route when I was 13, throwing, tossing papers, and I would get up in the middle of the night to throw everybody's paper so that they could, when they got up in the morning, would have their newspaper.

之后我做过各种工作，无论是在当地的Tasty Freeze翻汉堡，还是其他

And I then took various jobs from there, whether it was flipping hamburgers at the local Tasty Freeze and doing

真酷。

That's cool.

只要能赚钱的活我都干，因为我真的很想上大学。

Anything I could to make some amount of money because I really wanted to go to college.

而且，

And,

你知道，我父亲从事的造船业经常面临裁员，这个行业周期性很强。

you know, my father being in the shipbuilding business was subject to layoffs, and that business was a very cyclical kind of business.

没错。

Right.

所以在裁员期间我们会经历更艰难的时期，而我总是渴望为自己争取更好的生活，想要一份稳定的工作，能依靠稳定的收入来源。

And so we would go through tougher times during the layoff periods, and I always wanted something better for myself, more of a job that was regular and that you could depend on an income stream with.

因此我想上大学提升自己，最终去了阿拉巴马州的公立大学奥本大学，我非常喜欢那里。

And so I wanted to go to college and better myself, and I wound up at Auburn, which is a public university in Alabama, and I loved it.

是的。

Yeah.

我太喜欢了。

I loved it.

大学生活是

The uni experience was

大学经历简直不可思议。

The university experience was unbelievable.

我有点放飞自我了。

I I went a little wild.

是吗？

Yeah?

当然。

Of course.

你必须这么做。

You have to.

你必须这么做。

You have to.

你无法预知。

You can't know.

必须的，世界就此为我敞开。

Have to, and the world just opened for me.

我一直充满好奇，但大学让你更加好奇，因为你可以选修各种课程，以不同的智力方式挑战自己，这感觉棒极了。

I was always curious, but you get even more curious college because you can take so many different courses and challenge yourself in intellectual different ways, and it was wonderful.

之后，我开始了职业生涯，先是在IBM工作，接着去杜克大学读研究生，最终来到了苹果公司。

And then after that, I started my career first at IBM, then went to graduate school at Duke, and then eventually made my way to Apple.

这真是一段不可思议的旅程。

It's an incredible journey.

听你讲述时，我也想起自己很小的时候，似乎一直渴望拥有一份工作。

It's hearing you speak, like, I remember also when I was really young, I think I always wanted to have a job.

大概13岁在学校时，我在附近药店找到第一份工作——有位女士在卖类似瑞典版雅芳的产品，我就拿着产品目录在学校女生间推销。

It was again, like when I was 13, I was in school and I think my first job, I had gone to a pharmacy nearby and a woman was selling like, I guess it was like the Swedish equivalent to like Avon or something at the time and I was like, let me take this catalog and like sell products with the girls at my school.

那算是我的第一份工作吧。

So that was kind of like my first job.

后来事业逐步发展，但很早我就怀揣音乐梦想，渴望登上舞台表演。

And then it progressed from there, but very early on I had like a dream that I always wanted to do music and that I wanted to be on stage and I wanted to perform.

大概十岁时我就认定这是心之所向，但从未想过真能实现。

And I think I was probably like 10 where I was like, I really wanna do this, but I never really knew that it was even possible.

你曾经的梦想是什么？

What was your dream?

比如成为苹果CEO这种职位，是你曾经预想过的发展方向吗？

Like was was being the the head of Apple like something that you would have ever envisioned

老实说，这并非我为自己设想的道路。

It's not something I envisioned for myself, to be totally honest with you.

高中时，我曾想成为一名音乐家。

I was in high school, I wanted to be a musician.

我

I

学过或者说勉强学会了吹长号。

learned how or kind of learned how to play the trombone.

但一直吹得不好。

Was never any good at it.

真的吗？

Really?

我曾想加入爵士乐队，也参加过一段时间军乐队，后来意识到自己永远无法精通这门技艺，这不是我的天职。但我热爱数学和科学，于是决定大学攻读工程学，我的职业生涯就是从工程开始的，最初专注于机器人技术和生产线，学习产品制造。

But I wanted to be in a jazz band, and I was in a marching band for a while, and it kind of hit me that I was never gonna be great at it, that this was just not my calling, but I loved math and sciences, and so I decided to study engineering in college, and that's where I got my start was engineering, and I was first focused on robotics and in the manufacturing lines and learning how to manufacture products.

这对我来说非常酷，因为我热爱创造事物。

And this was really cool to me because I love creating things.

这太酷了。

That's so cool.

能多了解你一点真是太好了，因为我觉得可以这么说，我们对你的了解比其他大型科技公司那些更外向的领导者要少一些。

It's so nice to just get to know you a bit more because I think it's fair to say that, you know, we know less about you than the more, let's say, extroverted leaders of other big tech companies.

你试图成为什么样的领导者？

What kind of leader do you try to be?

嗯，我努力成为一个非常优秀的领导者。

Well, I try to be a really good one.

我努力成为一个真正深信合作的人，因为我坚信我们的想法通过相互碰撞，能产生比任何一个人单独思考更大的创意。当你能与更多人（不需要太多，几个人就行）这样合作时，这些想法的规模和影响力会呈指数级增长，你们共同创造的东西——无论是产品、营销还是其他任何工作——都会令人难以置信。

I try to be one that really deeply believes in collaboration because I do deeply believe that our ideas, bouncing ideas off of one another, that this creates a bigger idea than either one of us could generate on our own, and that when you can do this with larger groups of people, not totally large, but, you know, several people, that these ideas can be exponential in size and magnitude, and that it's unbelievable what you can create with them, whether it's creating products or creating marketing or whatever whatever you're working on together.

我对此深信不疑。

I really deeply believe this.

所以我尝试的领导风格就是让每个人都以这种方式协作。

And so I tried my leadership style is to try to get everyone to work together in that kind of way.

是啊。

Yeah.

我认为协作的艺术非常特别，当不同的思想汇聚并创造出真正独特的东西时。

The art of collaboration I think is is pretty is special, like when minds come together and create something really unique.

关于你的前任兼苹果创始人史蒂夫·乔布斯有一种神话色彩，他是一位伟大的远见型领袖。

There's a mythology around your predecessor and the founder of Apple, Steve Jobs is a great visionary leader.

是的。

Yes.

我几年前看过那部叫《乔布斯》的电影，他是个引人入胜的人物。

And I watched the film called Jobs like a few years ago now and he is a fascinating subject.

但与此同时，当你1998年加入苹果时，公司几乎濒临破产。

But at the same time when you joined Apple in 1998, the company was almost bankrupt.

没错。

That's right.

而今天，正如我之前所说，苹果市值约3万亿美元，其中约90%是在你任期内实现的。

And today, as I said earlier, it's worth about $3,000,000,000,000 and around like 90% of that came under your tenure.

你是否曾觉得自己没有得到足够的认可？

Do you ever think that you don't get enough credit?

不。

No.

老实说，我完全不这么看。

I I don't look at it like that at all, to be honest.

史蒂夫是独一无二的。

Steve was an original.

我认为只有史蒂夫才能创立苹果公司，我们对他心怀感激，我毫不怀疑如果他今天还活着，公司会表现卓越，他仍会是CEO。

I think only Steve could have created Apple, and we owe him a debt of gratitude, and there's no doubt in my mind that if he were still alive today, the company would be doing outstanding, and he would still be CEO.

所以我不认为这是关于功劳的事，而且，我能与我热爱且能力非凡的同事共事，我们共享公司的荣誉。

And so I don't think of it as a credit deal, and plus, I get to work with people that I love and that are unbelievable at doing what they do, and so we share the credit from the company.

我很欣赏这一点。

I love that.

我认为你是一位了不起的领导者，而且在很多方面都是如此。

I think I think you're an incredible leader, and I think in more ways than one.

2014年你公开出柜时，你是财富500强中唯一公开同性恋身份的CEO。

When you publicly came out in 2014, you were the only openly gay CEO in the Fortune 500.

而今天，近十年后，这个数字已增至四位。

And today, nearly ten years later, that number has increased to four.

没错。

Right.

也就是说，500家公司中仅有四位公开出柜的CEO。

So that's only four openly gay CEOs across 500 companies.

首先，这算怎么回事？

First of all, what the hell?

我感觉我们本应比这进步得多。

Like I feel like we've moved moved on further than this.

你认为为什么在商业高层仍看不到平等的代表权？

Like why do you think we're still not seeing equal representation at like the top levels of business?

我认为仍存在一道玻璃天花板，

I think there's still a glass ceiling,

而且

and

并非每家公司都如此。

not in every company.

我们已经打破了玻璃天花板。

We've killed the glass ceiling.

我们在苹果公司粉碎了它，我站在前辈的肩膀上，将这一事业不断推进。

We've shattered it in Apple, and people that came before me, I stood on their shoulders, and we took it further and further.

但我认为在大多数公司里，玻璃天花板依然存在。

But I think in a large number of companies, there's still a glass ceiling.

这种情况很荒谬。

It's bizarre that it's like that.

我深信每个人都应受到尊严与尊重，从这个角度出发，许多问题就会自然消解甚至不会产生。

My own deep belief is that everybody should be treated with dignity and respect, and if you start from that angle, a lot of other problems kind of go away and never create themselves.

但我认为不仅LGBTQ群体面临天花板，女性、有色人种同样如此，我们还有更多工作要做。

But I do think there's still a ceiling for not only LGBTQ, but for women, for people of color, and we have more work to do.

全球许多国家的社会显然还有很长的路要走。

Society definitely has more work to do in in many countries in the world.

是啊。

Yeah.

我对商业中的种族多样性问题也相当感兴趣。

I am I am quite interested in, like, the racial diversity in business as well.

我之前查过，目前财富500强企业中只有八位黑人CEO。

I checked earlier and it's also it's, like, currently eight black CEOs in the Fortune five hundred.

我想这对你来说一定很重要，因为你在美国民权运动时期的南方长大。

And I I imagine that it must be quite important to you because you grew up during the civil rights era in The US That's right.

在南方腹地。

In the Deep South.

你对那个时期还有什么记忆至今仍在影响你对待平等的态度吗？

Like, do you have any recollections from that time that continue to influence your approach to equality today?

哦，当然。

Oh, yes.

记得当时博士。

Remember when Doctor.

金博士遇刺时，

King was assassinated,

而且

and

那是个极其悲伤的时期。

this was an extremely sad time.

他就像一座丰碑，让你觉得他正引领世界走向应许之地，而当时并不清楚谁能继承他的衣钵。

He was such a statue that you felt like he was taking the world in the direction it should go, and it wasn't so clear who else would follow him.

就在他遇刺的同一年，鲍比·肯尼迪也遭刺杀，那是1968年，当时我八岁，这两起刺杀事件的叠加给年幼的我带来沉重压力——我深知这两人正将人类推向应有的方向。

The same year that he was assassinated, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated, and this was in '68, and I was eight years old at the time, and this was just the combination of these two assassinations were really weighed heavily on me as a very, very young person, knowing that these two were pushing the human race where it needed to go.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那确实是个非常非常悲伤的时期。

And it was a very, very sad time.

我想我们讨论苹果公司就绕不开iPhone的话题。

I guess we can't really talk about Apple without talking about the iPhone.

我的第一部iPhone，我想是从我父亲那里传下来的二手货。

And my first iPhone, I think was like a hand me down from my dad.

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

是的。

Yeah.

然后我就签了合约，拿到了第一部真正属于自己的iPhone。

And then and then I got my first one like, on contract.

我记得大概是iPhone 6之类的型号。

I think it was like the iPhone six or something that I I got.

当时拿到它时我特别兴奋。

And I was so excited when I got it.

现在它简直像是我身体的延伸。

And today it's like, it's a it's an extension of my body.

你知道吗，我手指上甚至因为频繁使用磨出了一个小凹痕。

You know, I even have like the little dip in my finger from how much I use it.

但我相当注意使用手机的方式，你知道的。

But I'm quite mindful, you know, when I use my phone.

比如，我确实经常用手机工作，但我尽量保持自觉，会选择拿起一本书而不是玩手机，特别是在旅行或乘飞机的时候。

Like, I I use my phone because I work on it all the time, but I try and be mindful and pick up a book rather than use my phone, especially like when I'm traveling or flying or whatever.

尽管如此，我还是经常使用手机。

But regardless of that, I'm on my phone a lot.

没错。

Right.

我想听听你真实的看法，你觉得年轻人是否存在过度使用手机的现象？

I I guess I just kind of want your honest take on like, do you think there's an excessive phone usage, especially in young people?

如果存在的话，有什么办法可以解决这个问题？

And if so, like, what can be done about it?

我认为智能手机包括iPhone确实存在过度使用的情况。

I think there is an excessive use of the smartphone and including the iPhone.

这也是我们推出‘屏幕使用时间’功能的原因，老实说，我们觉得我们能做的最重要的事情之一就是让你了解自己花费的时间，类似于我们在手表上做的促进多运动的功能。嗯。

And that's the reason we came out with Screen Time, honestly, was we wanted, we felt like one of the most important things we could do was surface the amount that you're spending, sort of similar to what we do on the watch, which promotes your ability to move more Mhmm.

燃烧更多卡路里，多站立。

Burn more calories, stand more.

但在手机上，我们从相反的角度来看待这个问题，并问道：你真的想每天花五个小时在手机上吗，无论具体数字是多少，

But on the on the phone, we're looking at that from the opposite point of view and saying, do you really wanna spend five hours a day on your phone or whatever the number might be,

而且

and

还会告诉你你在手机上做什么，时间都花在哪里。

also telling you what you're doing on it, where you're spending your time.

我们还做了诸如展示你收到多少通知这样的事情。

We also did things like surfacing how many notifications you get.

因为有时候问题不在于时间长短，而在于频繁的干扰。

Because sometimes it's not the amount of time, but it's the interruptions.

对。

Right.

你是说全天候的提醒吗？

The What you mean like throughout the day?

你整天都在不停地查看它。

That you Throughout keep kinda checking it.

这就像一种

It's like a

没错。

That's right.

是啊。

Yeah.

我记得在使用这个工具之前，让我震惊的是我一天要接收多少通知。

And I noticed when I remember when I started using the tool before it was released, the moment for me was how many notifications I was getting in a day.

我对这个数字感到难为情，于是立刻去查看是谁发送了这么多通知，并开始屏蔽那些我觉得可以留到一天结束时再处理的群组通知。

I was embarrassed by the number I was getting in a day, and I quickly went and looked to see who's sending me all of these, and I started cutting out different notifications from different groups that I felt like, you know, I could catch up on this at the end of the day.

正是如此。

Exactly.

我不需要实时了解每件事的动态。

I don't need to know at the moment when something is happening.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为屏幕使用时间很重要，当然对于孩子来说，如果你是家长，那么设定一些关于他们在哪里花费时间、使用哪些应用程序的参数，所有这些都变得非常重要。

And so I think screen time is important, and of course for kids, if you're a parent, then setting some parameters around where they're spending time, what apps they're using, all of this becomes really important.

没错。

Yeah.

我们为所有这些需求开发工具。

And we make tools for all of these things.

我认为这确实非常重要。

I think that's really important for sure.

今年，我感觉比以往任何时候都更...不知道该怎么形容，每次打开新闻，总能看到又一场气候灾难。

This year, I feel like more than ever we've I don't know, every time we turn on the news, there's kind of another like climate disaster.

确实如此。

Yes.

我认为我们各行各业都在集体担忧气候危机，每个人都在努力思考应该采取什么正确行动，以及如何应对正在发生的一切。

And I think we're all collectively really worried about the climate crisis in our respective industries, and I think everyone's trying to figure out what the right thing to do is and how we can combat everything that's happening.

我在想，苹果公司的气候战略是什么？你认为最难解决的问题有哪些？

And I was just wondering, like, what is Apple's climate strategy, and what do you think are the hardest problems to solve?

这是个很好的问题。

It's a great question.

几年前我们开始让公司完全使用可再生能源运营，但我们意识到这还不够，必须重点关注供应链问题——这部分主要在公司外部，以及客户家庭和办公室为产品充电所需的能源。

We started running the company on 100% renewable energy several years ago, but we realized this is not sufficient, that we had to go focus on our supply chain, which is largely outside of our company, and the energy that it takes to recharge our products at the customers' homes and offices.

因此我们设定了一个目标：到2030年实现整个产品生命周期的碳中和，让我们所有产品都达到碳中和标准。

And so we set an objective to take all of that cycle, the whole product cycle, to carbon neutral by 2030, where all of our products are carbon neutral.

这比《巴黎协定》设定的目标提前了二十年。

This is twenty years before the Paris Accord.

抱歉，碳中和有点像抵消的概念。

And, sorry, carbon neutral is kind of like offsetting.

对吧？

Right?

这

The

碳中和是彻底消除碳排放与通过种植吸收二氧化碳的森林或草地来抵消剩余碳足迹的结合。

carbon or is is a combination of driving the carbon away totally, and then whatever the residual amount is left to offset that by planting forest or grasslands that pulls carbon from the atmosphere.

好的。

Okay.

比如我们一周前刚发布的某些型号的Apple Watch，它们现在已实现碳中和，这比我们最初预计的时间提前了七年。

So if you look at the Apple Watch, certain models of the Apple Watch that we just shipped a week ago, they're carbon neutral now, and this happened seven years earlier than we had initially thought we could do it.

好的。

Okay.

我们实现这一目标的方式是采用了高比例的可回收材料，从而减少了对地球资源的开采，这原本会产生大量碳排放。

And the way that we got there was it has a high degree of recycled material in it, and so we were in a position where we could stop pulling certain products from the earth, which creates carbon emissions.

我们建设了大量太阳能和风能发电场，在运输方面大幅缩小包装体积以提高运输效率，并将空运改为海运，后者碳排放量要低得多

We have numerous solar farms and wind farms on the renewable side, and then on the transportation, we shrunk our packaging significantly so that we could ship more products, and we took them out of the air and put them on the sea, which is a much lower carbon emission

对。

Right.

运输方式确实如此。

Way of transport, yeah.

通过这些措施组合，我们成功将碳足迹减少了近80%，剩余的20%则通过种植森林等高质抵消项目来中和。

This got us to reduce the carbon footprint by almost 80%, these combination of tasks, and then the last 20% we offset with high quality offsets like planting forests and And,

你知道的，有时候所有这些术语确实会让人有点困惑。

you know, sometimes all the terminology can be a little bit confusing.

是的，确实如此。

Yes, it can

确实。

be.

对我来说要完全理解有点困难，不过好吧，所以我们有碳中和与净零排放，这两者基本类似。

For me to try and like understand, but okay, so we have carbon neutral and net zero and that's kind of like carbon neutral.

没错。

That's right.

但它还包括温室气体之类的排放。

But it includes also like greenhouse gases.

我这样理解对吗？

Am I right in thinking that?

大多数说碳中和的人指的是碳排放已降至当前最低水平，剩余部分通过碳抵消来平衡。

Most people that say carbon neutral mean that the carbon has been driven to the lowest amount currently possible, and then the balance has been offset.

好的。

Okay.

有些人用不同的术语来表达，这就是我们的用法。

Some people use it in a different terminology, that's how we use it.

好的。

Okay.

这与完全零排放不同吗？

And that's different to zero emissions entirely?

比如，

Like,

零排放是我们努力要达到的目标吗？

is like is zero emissions where we're trying to get to?

是的。

Yes.

比如，我猜这就是地球的目标吧。

Like, is that I presume that's the the goal for the planet.

那么，我们该如何实现这个目标呢？

Like, how do we how do we do that?

当我想到零排放时，我指的是完全不使用碳抵消。

When I think of zero emissions, I think of no offsets.

好的。

Okay.

当我想到净零排放时，我指的是包含碳抵消的情况。

When I think of net zero, I think of offsets included.

但是否有办法实现真正的零排放呢？

But is there a way to get to zero emissions?

我认为

I think

从长远来看，是可以实现的。

over the long arc of time, yes.

我认为我们必须相信这是可能的。

I think we have to believe that that's possible.

我认为短期内，需要一定程度的碳补偿才能实现碳中和。

I think in the short term, you need some level of offsets to get to carbon neutral.

我还想谈谈，因为你刚才提到了可回收产品。

I also wanna talk about, because you were just mentioning the recyclable product.

没错。

That's right.

在我为这次采访做研究时，坦白说，我看到了几篇令人痛心的文章，关于刚果民主共和国的儿童开采钴矿的情况。

As I was researching for this interview, I came across several, quite frankly, distressing articles about young kids in the Democratic Republic Of Congo mining for cobalt.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而钴是用于电池的材料，手机、笔记本电脑和电动汽车都会用到。

And cobalt is something which is used in batteries, are used in phones, laptops, and electric cars.

我知道这对整个科技行业来说是个复杂的问题，但你能百分百保证我的新iPhone 15中的钴没有使用刚果民主共和国的童工开采吗？

And I know that this is a complicated issue for the whole of the tech industry, but can you give me a 100% guarantee that the cobalt in my new iPhone 15 has not been mined using child labor in the DRC?

是的，我们可以保证，因为我们采取了两项措施。

Yes, we can, because we do two things.

首先，需要说明的是，我们的长期目标是从地球零开采来制造产品。

Well, first of all, should back up and say our objective over time is to take nothing from the earth to make our products.

这是一个宏大的构想——无需开采任何新资源，全部使用回收材料。

This is a big idea of not having to mine anything is to use all recycled material.

目前我们在手表产品中使用了100%回收钴，以及100%回收的金、锡、钨和其他稀土材料。

And today, we're using a 100% recycled cobalt in the watch, and a 100% recycled gold, tin, tungsten, and other rare earth materials in the watch.

我们对此深感自豪。

So we're really proud of this.

是的。

Yeah.

对于那些仍需开采部分原料的其他产品，我们在供应链中实施了严格的溯源机制，可追踪至矿场和冶炼厂，确保不使用童工。

But for those products that we still do mine for some of our other products, we have an intense level of tracing in our supply chain all the way back to the mine and the smelter to make sure that the labor used is not child labor.

好的。

Okay.

我认为我们在这方面做得非常好。

And I think we do a really good job of that.

好的，太棒了。

Okay, amazing.

这很好。

So this is good.

这就像是在展望未来，所有新产品都很棒。

This is like looking forward into the future with all the new products, which is great.

当我将旧手机数据转移到新手机时，系统还提示我有一项回收旧手机的服务。

While I was transferring my old phone into my new phone, it also said that there's a service for me to be able to recycle my old

没错。

That's right.

是的。

Yeah.

这一点很重要，因为我们知道人们想要升级换新手机，所以如果你有一部还能用的手机，我们会清理干净后转售给其他想买二手手机的人。

This is a great point to make because we know people want to upgrade and get new phones, and so if you have a phone that's working, we'll clean it up and resell that to someone else who wants to buy a used phone.

好的。

Okay.

如果手机已无法使用，我们会通过机器人将其拆解并回收材料，这些材料将成为新手机回收成分的一部分。

If you have a phone that's not working, we will disassemble that product robotically and recycle the materials, and it will become part of the recycled content of the new phone.

好的。

Okay.

因此我们建立了一个闭环流程，并投入大量工作确保所有旧手机都能被重新利用。

And so there's a closed loop process that we've worked on significantly to make sure that we're reusing all of the old phones.

好的，这是不是意味着我可以去苹果商店，比如说，提交我的...

Okay, and this is like a service that I can go to the Apple Store, let's say, And to send in my can I

而且我们还会为此付钱给你？

And we'll give you money for it too?

好的，所以我可以用它来获得折扣...

Okay, so I could get a discount on

你可以获得折扣

my You can get a discount

用于我下一部手机。

on my my next phone.

好的，这相当于一种补贴。

Okay, It acts as a kind of subsidy.

太好了。

Great.

嗯，这确实有帮助。

Well, it helps.

我觉得每个人都想尽自己的一份力。家里堆满各种数据线和旧手机之类的，能有这样的回收计划确实很棒。

Like I think everybody wants to do their part in how we And can make a I think having all these, you know, cables and old phones and whatever at home, it's good to have the initiative for sure.

我们稍后回来。

We'll be right back.

我是摩根·弗里曼，这里是《与杰米·斯宾塞的六度空间》。

I'm Morgan Freeman, and this is six degrees from Jamie at Spencer.

你知道吗，斯宾塞？

You know what, Spence?

什么？

What?

我最近为我们的播客请来了一些大牌人物。

I have pulled out some big names for our podcast recently.

你到底在说什么？

What on earth are you talking about?

詹妮弗·洛佩兹、摩根·弗里曼、塞缪尔·杰克逊，还需要我多说吗？

J Lo, Morgan Freeman, Samuel Jackson, dare I say more.

他们来是因为，据说啊，

They came on because apparently, rumor has it.

他们喜欢我。

They love me.

你要知道他们跟你说话只是为了

You know that they're only talking to you to

接近我。

get to me.