Episode 48: Hit the Switch

你正在浏览在线资料，觉得终于找到了那个最适合惩罚你的严父。

You're looking through online profiles, and you think you've found the perfect daddy to give you spanking you deserve.

他眼神凌厉，目光深邃，站姿自信，光是看着就让你想臣服。

He's got the stern look, the penetrating eyes, and a confident posture that makes you wanna submit.

他的一张照片里，居然还穿着西装。

He's even wearing a suit in one of his pictures.

于是你主动联系他，说想约个时间见面聊聊。

So you reach out to him and tell him you're interested in possibly meeting up for a session.

好消息是，他也对你很感兴趣。

Good news is he's interested in you too.

他夸你长相出众、头发好看、眼睛有神、站姿自信，还特别欣赏你干脆利落的个性。

He compliments your looks, your hair, your eyes, your confident posture, and he likes your assertive attitude.

可他喜欢得有点过头了——回信说，其实他希望你把他按在腿上，狠狠打一顿。

Except he likes it so much that he actually wrote back because he wants you to put him over your knee and spank him.

那现在你打算怎么办？

So what do you do?

欢迎收听《男人们聊男人们》第48期。

Welcome to episode 48 of the dudes spake a dudes podcast.

这不是一档花十个小时深挖一起无头凶案的播客，也不是讲百慕大三角迷信传说的节目。

This is not a podcast trying to mine ten hours of content about a random unsolved murder nor is it a podcast about the superstition surrounding the Bermuda Triangle.

这是一档专门聊男人打男人、男人被男人打的播客。

This is a podcast about dudes who spank dudes and dudes who are spanked by other dudes.

本期节目由两位男士主持。

And this episode of the podcast is hosted by two dudes.

嗨，我是史蒂夫。

Hi, this is Steve.

嘿，史蒂夫，我是斯科特，人称红裤衩斯科特。

Hey Steve, and this is Scott, also known as Red Spank Scott.

欢迎回来，史蒂夫。

Welcome back to the podcast, Steve.

最近怎么样？

How are you doing?

谢谢。

Thanks.

很高兴能来。

Glad to be here.

我状态很好。

I'm doing great.

希望你也是。

Hope you are too.

是的，我们刚才还刚在Hot Seat Retreat见过面。

Yes, we actually just saw each other a little while ago about Hot Seat Retreat.

这个待会儿再聊。

We'll talk about that in just a minute.

不过在那之前，你上一次来是在第46期，聊了你正在写的那本书。

But before that, you were last on episode 46 talking about the book you were working on.

那本书现在进展怎么样？

So how is that going?

进展特别顺利，谢谢你关心这个。

That is going really well, and I appreciate you asking about that.

我和合著者都希望能在2023年10月顺利出版。

My co author and I are hoping to be able to release it this October 2023.

到目前为止，社区里的很多人给了我们特别棒的反馈，不管是填了我们发布的问卷，还是抽出时间接受我们的采访。

And so far we have gotten just amazing feedback from people in the community, whether through completing the survey that we had posted or being gracious with their time and giving us interviews.

整个过程真的非常美好，期待几个月后能和大家分享一些精彩的故事、照片和内容。

It's just been a really fantastic process and look forward to having some great stories and pictures and content to share in a few months.

太棒了，太棒了，太棒了。

Awesome, awesome, awesome.

你几个月前特地来洛杉矶做了一次采访，还办了个私密的派对，特别精彩。

And you actually came out to LA a few months ago to do an interview, and you had a private spanking party, which was awesome.

我参加了那个派对，结果后来有人感染了新冠。

And I attended it, and then it got COVID.

所以

So

是的，听到那部分我很难过，不过除此之外，那段时间真的很棒。

Yes, sorry to hear that part of it, but other than that it was a great time.

我没在派对上感染新冠，因为症状是第二天晚上才开始出现的。

So I didn't get COVID at the party because the symptoms started coming in the very next evening.

来得特别突然。

It was just kind of immediate.

真是挺巧的。

Was just weird coincidence.

幸运的是，我好像没把病毒传给派对上的其他人，那就好。之后我们在三月办了一场热椅静修营。

Fortunately it doesn't seem as though I gave COVID to anybody else there so that was And a then we had a hot seat retreat in March.

大概来了170个男生。

It had somewhere around 170 guys.

办得还算顺利。

It went fairly well.

我得提一下贾登，因为我想让参加过的人了解一下情况。

We have to talk a little bit about poor Jaden just because I want to make sure I fill people in who attended.

对于经常听节目的朋友来说，棕榈泉的Hot Seat Retreat是由我们三人组织的：我、道格拉斯，还有杰登。

Jaden, for people who listen regularly, the Hot Seat Retreat at Palm Springs is organized by three of us: myself, Douglas, and Jayden.

杰登负责所有技术活儿，包括房间登记、线上事务、通讯邮件，只要是跟电脑有关的，全是他操心。

Jayden does all the tech stuff, he does all the room registration, all the online stuff, the newsletters, anything that involves computers he is involved with.

他所有的工作都在 retreat 开始前就搞定了，之后通常就能去参加，好好放松，顺便做点他喜欢的烘焙。

All of his work is done before Hot Seat Retreat, and then normally he gets to go to Hot Seat Retreat and have a good time doing his baking fun.

我呢，负责现场统筹，确保活动顺利进行，而他就可以轻松自在地玩。

I'm the one who's doing all the work with organizing, making sure the event goes smoothly while I'm there and he gets to relax and have fun.

本来计划就是这样。

So that was the plan.

可惜的是，杰登第一天到那儿就出状况了。

Unfortunately, Jayden got there the first evening.

他开始感觉不舒服，自己做了个居家检测，结果呈阳性，感染了新冠。

He started feeling sick, and so he took a home test and tested positive for COVID.

于是他把自己关在房间里，第二天就走了。

So he shut himself up in his room and left the next day.

我们得安排人接他回去，因为他没开车来，本来租车就很难，那会儿又赶上大型网球赛，根本找不到车，幸好道格动用了人脉才搞定。

We arranged to he hadn't driven down, so we had to arrange to get him a car to get back home, which was awkward because there was a big tennis tournament and it was really it's normally hard to get car rentals these days it was super hard but Doug used his connections to make it happen.

他情况还好，症状比较轻，但为了大家的安全，我们还是让他回去了。

He was okay it was a relatively minor It played out relatively minor for him, but of course we couldn't have him around everyone else, so he went back home.

到目前为止，我只听说有一个人在活动后感染了。

So far I only heard of one person getting infected post event.

他回家后给我们发了封邮件。

He sent us an email when he got home.

还没听说其他人感染，所以大家一定要打疫苗！

I haven't heard of any others, so fortunately get vaccinated!

一定要打加强针！

Get boosters!

除此之外，我自己玩得特别开心，这次的主题是‘Switch’，我既给了别人惩罚，也收到了不少特别带感的惩罚。

So other than that, as for me, I had a lot of fun playing being a Switch, which is the theme for this episode, so I gave out some spankings, and I received some fun really fun spankings.

有两位我之前没一起玩过的主导者联手‘欺负’我，那感觉太刺激了。

I got double team bullied by a couple of tops that I hadn't played with before, and it was super hot.

其实我大部分的惩罚都是来自以前惩罚过我的人，除了有一次，那真的特别有意思。

And actually, think I got I think most of my spankings well, except for one, I got several spankings from guys I had been spanked by before, so that was that was a lot of fun.

你，史蒂夫，我们另一个朋友组织了一个叫‘校长办公室’的活动。

You, Steve, another friend of ours organized something called the Principal's Office.

那个活动特别成功。

So that was a huge success.

给我们讲讲吧，当时是怎么进行的。

Tell us about it and how it went.

是的，玩得特别开心。

Yeah, that was a lot of fun.

没想到来的人这么多，大家都玩得很尽兴。

We were really excited by the number of people who turned out and it was just a really good time.

我们办‘校长办公室’这个活动，本来就是想给想体验的人一个机会，还原那种学校里典型的用木板打屁股的场景。

What we went into the principal's office event wanting to do was to give folks who wanted the chance an opportunity to recreate an authentic school style principal's office paddling.

所以用的是木板，让人趴在桌子或椅子上，我们还准备了粉红色的违规单，让大家填上自己犯了什么错，该受什么惩罚。

So wood paddle, bent over a desk or a chair, and we even gave out pink slip forms so folks could fill out an infraction and what they were getting punished for.

其中一些创意特别棒，玩起来特别有意思。

And some of those were just incredibly creative and a lot of fun to play with.

我们统计下来，大约有50个人参与了，这占了到场人数的很大一部分。

And we had, by our count, about 50 people who came through, which is a lot of the folks who were in attendance.

特别有趣的是，我们是在一个房间里进行的，外面还围了一大群人等着轮到自己。

It was really fun because we were doing it in one of the rooms and there was a crowd of people outside watching and waiting their turn.

我觉得每个人都很享受这个过程。

And I think everyone had a great time.

对我们来说，组织这场活动也特别开心。

And it was a lot of fun for us as well to organize that.

是的。

Yeah.

我很高兴这件事最后办得这么成功。

I'm so glad that that had that turned out.

我平时最担心的就是这类事情。

It's really those things that I worry about.

我总在播客的节目中听到这个话题，说的是有一批年轻的新面孔正涌入烘焙圈。

I keep hitting this discussion on episodes of the podcast about how we have this new crop of younger guys who are coming into this baking scene.

体罚现在在学校里早就过时了，属于过去的老一套了。

Since corporal punishment, you know, is very much in schools, is very much an old fashioned kind of thing in the past.

我有点怀疑，是不是那些新来的人脑子里幻想出来的，但事实上，现场确实有各个年龄段的男性参与者。

I do kind of wonder whether or not that is a fantasy for people who are coming into this vacancy, but sure enough there are a lot of there were guys of all ages there.

我觉得特别有意思的一点是，有人回去换了衣服，打扮成学生的样子。

One of the things I thought was was really hot was that guys went back to the rooms and dressed up for it as a student.

是啊，我们看到各种各样的校园主题装扮，这让他们更投入，也让我们觉得特别有趣。

Yeah, we had a variety of different kinds of school themed outfits, which really just made it, I think, more realistic for them and made it fun for us.

大家真的都玩得很嗨。

Yeah, folks were really getting into it.

不是那种随便应付一下，停几秒钟就完事了。

It wasn't just, oh, I'll stop and do this for a few seconds.

这简直成了活动里的活动，效果特别好。

It really became an event within the event, so that was great.

是的，当时还有一个针对更小孩子的年龄扮演活动。

Yeah, and there was also were you also involved there was another an age play event for boys to be a little bit younger.

孩子们聚在一起玩，有几位‘爸爸’在旁边照看着。

Came together and played with the oversight of some of their daddies.

你当时是那位‘爸爸’之一吗？

Were you one of the daddies?

对。

Yeah.

在那个活动里，我扮演了爸爸的角色，不过我不是组织者，但主办方确实做得特别用心。

In that particular event, I played a daddy and I was not the organizer of that event, but the folks who put it together again did a really nice job.

他们安排了各种活动，还有东西吃、小点心，什么都准备好了。

They had, all kinds of activities that were set up and, things to do and snacks and treats.

所以，这又是一个活动中的小高潮。

And so, it was again, kind of an event within the event.

持续了几个小时，很多人过来参与，玩得都很开心。

And it lasted for a couple of hours and a lot of folks came by and had a good time.

我觉得这两个活动都挺好的，因为它们让人有机会去探索一些对自己很重要、或者完全没试过的东西。

So both of those events I think were great because they gave people the opportunity to explore something that perhaps explore something that's important to them as part of their headspace or explore something new.

不管哪种情况，看到现场这么多不同的活动，真的很棒。

And in either case, it was just great to see the variety of things going on.

是啊，这两个活动都办得挺成功，挺有意思的。

Yeah, that was interesting how both of those did well.

不过活动里其他一些项目就没那么顺利了，包括我组织的一个。

Some of the other stuff at the events didn't go so well, including one that I organized.

Hot Seat Retreat 那个地方平时就有 bingo 游戏，挺轻松的，我们还准备了一些小奖品。本来以为大家会感兴趣，结果反馈说大家更想要别的互动游戏。我就试着组织了一场 bingo，结果一个人都没来。

So I organized the restaurant at Hot Seat Retreat has bingo on the regular, you know, a fun bingo, and so we had some paddles to give away as prizes, so I thought people were looking for other some of the feedback we got was that people wanted some other organized games or activities or things like that, and so I tried to organize the bingo game, and nobody showed.

真不错。

Awesome.

对，还有几位参加者自己组织的游戏也没人参与。后来我回头想想，本来以为线上反响不错，活动应该没问题，但可能大家低估了那天的天气——那周末天气特别好。

Yeah, and some of the attendees also tried to organize some games that also didn't show, and I think going back and looking at it because I thought the games would do okay because there was lot of online activity, but I think people underestimate we had a really nice weather for that weekend.

幸运的是，从出发前到活动结束，一直都在下雨。

It was like stuck fortunately because it rained all the way up to the event and after the event.

南加州这个春天特别特别多雨，而且特别冷——对南加州来说算冷了，气温只有十几摄氏度，这在洛杉矶简直跟零下二十度差不多。

We've had a very, very rainy spring in Southern California and very cold for well, cold for Southern California, by which I mean 50s, which is the same as minus 20 in Los Angeles.

不过那些游戏没搞起来，但角色扮演活动却大受欢迎。

So those games though didn't work, those role playing activities did super well.

我明白了一个道理：天气好的时候，人们根本不想坐着玩桌游，他们更想出去做点别的。

The lesson that I got was like people didn't want to be necessarily want to sit around and play games when the weather is nice and they could be doing this stuff.

那之后，我注意到现场有很多男性，又是那个越来越壮大的霸凌文化圈。

So after that, I bet you said, were a lot of guys, again, this growing bully scene.

现场有不少男性对捉弄人、欺负人这一套特别感兴趣，我和其中一些人玩过，他们之间也互相玩。

There were a lot of guys who were there, were into wedgies and bullying and that sort of thing, some of whom I played with, some of whom played with each other.

那段时间发生了好多事。

There was a lot of stuff going on.

那场活动结束后，我就开始琢磨这件事。

So after that event, started thinking about that.

其实最后一天我就开始头脑风暴了，因为我一直都在想这些事——这正是我最关注的东西。

Actually, on the last day, I started brainstorming because I'm always thinking about this stuff because this is the stuff that I pay attention to.

在活动里，我的任务就是这个。

That's my job at the event.

我盯着这些活动，看哪些有效、哪些没效果，确保大家玩得开心。

I'm looking at these activities and see what's succeeding, seeing what's failing, making sure that people are having fun.

要是大家玩得不开心，我就得琢磨是哪儿出了问题。

If people aren't having fun, trying to find out why.

于是我开始琢磨，能不能搞个类似的活动，专门吸引那些喜欢‘霸凌游戏’的人——这其实挺有挑战的，因为霸凌游戏的关键，是得有那种突如其来的感觉。

So I started brainstorming and thinking about the idea of some sort of event like this that could appeal to people who are into bully play, which is kind of a little bit of a challenge because, like, if you part of bully play is that it needs to feel it has a sort of level of spontaneity to it.

比如你幻想被人欺负，结果却要提前排好时间表：‘下午一点到两点，你被欺负’，这哪还有那种感觉。

Like if have a fantasy of being bullied, setting up a schedule like between one to two you're going to be bullied.

但另一方面，我又得搭建一个框架，确保所有事都是双方同意的——虽然你希望它看起来像被迫的，但本质上必须是自愿的。

It doesn't kind of hit the headspace But on the other hand I have to kind of set up a framework for it where everything that happened is consensual even though you want it to feel non consensual, but it's going to be consensual.

我正在想一些点子，希望明年能办个这样的活动，搞点打屁股之类的，让人感觉被欺负了，但又享受其中，不会觉得是被虐待。

I'm brainstorming some ideas and hopefully we can come next year and maybe do some fun sort of bully role play event where spanking happens and people feel bullied but they also enjoy it in a way that feels enjoyable where they don't feel like they're being abused.

而那些‘施暴者’呢，也能过一把当家做主的瘾，诸如此类吧。

But the bullies get to feel like they're in charge and blah blah blah.

这事儿挺复杂的。

It's complicated.

我会想办法解决的。

I'll work it out.

我挺期待明年的活动的。

I'll look forward to that next year.

这对我来说会是全新的体验。

That'll be something new for me to try.

那你到时候是当施暴者，还是被欺负的一方，或者两个都试？

Oh, would you be there as a bully or prey or both?

我也不确定，而且说到这个

I don't know, and I mean with the

我们今晚聊的这个话题啊，说到底还是得自己做决定。

topic of what we're talking about tonight, I mean decisions, decisions,

我真说不准。

I don't know.

是的，我的计划中有一部分就是让这两种角色都可能实现。

Yeah, and part of my plan will be to make it possible to be either or.

不过，你之前提到你当过校长，那肯定没少打过人吧。

So, but yeah, you there did you so we talked about you played principal, so you obviously gave spankings.

那你自己有没有挨过打呢？

Did you take any spankings while you were there?

今年这次活动，我给的比收到的多得多。

At this particular event this year, I really gave more than I received.

确实也挨了一些，但整体上我更偏向主导的一方，每次活动情况都不一样。

I did get some, but the balance tipped a little bit more toward the Dom side, and it varies by event.

这没什么，我玩得很开心，只是今年更偏向主导一点。

And it's fine, so I had a wonderful time, but just kind of leaned Dom this year.

对，这就说到本期节目的正题了。

Yep, and that leads us to the topic of the actual topic of this episode.

我们就是想分享一些刺激的打屁股故事，因为大家都爱听。

We just wanted to share hot spanking stories because people like it.

在策划热座 Retreat 的过程中，我让 Jaded 做了一项调查，问参与者他们是主导型、顺从型，还是两者皆可。

One interesting detail that has come from Hot Seat Retreat as part of the planning process I had asked Jaded to survey attendees as to whether they're top, bottom, or switch.

大家没有义务必须选某个标签，也不影响他们在活动中的行为，但我发现绝大多数人其实都是两者皆可的。

With no commitment people could just say they didn't obligate them to identify that way at the event or keep them from doing whatever they wanted but one of the big things I discovered is the vast majority were switches.

有意思的是，翻看我们之前的播客，居然从来没有一期专门讲过这个话题。

Interestingly, looking at the podcast, we have not had an episode at all.

我们现在已经是第48期了。

We are in episode 48.

真的从来没做过一期聚焦在‘两者皆可’这个角色上的内容。

We really have not had an episode that focused on being a switch.

我们偶尔会提到‘两者皆可’。

We talk about being a switch.

我在播客里也聊过自己是两者皆可的。

You know, I talk about being a switch in the podcast.

Jayden 就是个两者皆可的人。

Jayden is a switch.

道格也是个切换者。

Doug is a switch.

所以，很多上过播客的人其实都是切换者，但我们很少深入聊过那种心态上的来回转换——比如什么时候更想主导、什么时候更想服从，还有切换者做角色扮演时的各种体验。

So, a lot of people who have been on the podcast have been switches, But we don't really talk about the headspace, shifting back and forth, like how you can feel more one way or the other way or all of these switch things role playing when you're a switch, all those things.

所以我决定，是时候做一期专门聊聊切换者经历的节目了。

So decided it's time to do an episode focusing on the experiences of Switches.

我就想到了你，因为当初我们在道格家的派对上第一次见面时，你当时完全是以主导者的身份出现，也明确说自己就是个主导者。

So I thought about you because when we first met at a party at Doug's place, you were there entirely as a top, and you identified entirely as a top at that party.

没错。

I did.

你还主动放弃了话语权。

And you gave up some spaking.

但你现在呢，跟我很像。说来有趣，我记得很清楚，那时我刚开始从主导者转向切换者，大概才一年左右，正想拓展对不同男生的体验，后来在你的‘坏蛋周末’里，我被你狠狠收拾了一顿。

But now, much like me, because it's funny, I remember that because I was about a year into my journey into going from a top to a switch, and I was looking to expand my horizons of guys, and eventually I got spanked by you Badass Weekend.

没错。

That's right.

就这样？

That's that?

非常好。

Very well.

接下来的那个Badass Weekend，我注意到你变了，虽然没看见你被揍，但我听到了一些对话，也看到有人拽着你的耳朵，把你拖回酒店房间去打你屁股。

And then, the following Badass Weekend, I noticed that you were, I didn't see you get spanked, but I saw, I heard conversations and I saw, I saw a scene where someone took you by the ear and dragged you back to a hotel room to give you a spanking.

我当时就想，哦，Steve现在也开始被打了。

I went, Oh, Steve's getting spanked now too.

既然咱们都经历过从主导者变成切换者的过程，不如聊聊这段经历吧。

So for the real dudes spanking real dudes, let's just talk about this journey that we have both kind of gone on from becoming DOMs to switches.

当然。

Absolutely.

那这事儿是怎么发生的？

So how did this happen?

哦，说来话长，对我而言，这真是一段漫长的转变。

Oh, well, it's been, I mean, me it's been a journey.

我刚接触这个圈子里的时候，其实主要是自己一个人玩，还没怎么和其他人接触。

When I first started becoming a part of the spanking community, it was actually me doing a lot of self spanking on my own before I was really meeting with a lot of folks.

那时候我两边都试了，感觉特别棒。

And when I did that, I really enjoyed both sides and it was great.

自己动手的时候，我能很清楚地想象自己是掌控的一方。

I could visualize myself when I was self spanking as the top.

同时也能代入到被惩罚的那一方，那种心理上的切换特别有意思。

I could visualize myself at the bottom and at the same time whatever kind of mind meld that was.

但后来我开始多参加活动、和别人互动，就越来越倾向于做主导的一方，也觉得特别自在。

But when I started actually getting out and playing with folks more and going to the events, I just really gravitated toward the Dom side and I felt very comfortable there.

我确实喜欢用工具，也享受偶尔来一次纯粹的打屁股，但更多时候我还是喜欢角色扮演。

And for me, a lot of what I do, of course I like playing with implements and I like just one off spankings for fun, but a lot of what I do is role play.

我能很自然地把自己代入校长、父亲这样的角色，完全进入那个权威的身份，像通常在角色扮演里那样主导整个场景。

And I really was able to envision myself as the principal or as the dad and taking on that Damn role and kind of helping to direct the scene as the Damn often does in role play scenarios.

那种感觉特别好，我也真的很享受。

And that was great and I enjoyed it.

但即使我完全认同自己是主导方，参加活动时也会戴上主导方的手环，用这种方式介绍自己，个人资料也这么设置。

But even when I completely identified as a Damn, and I would wear, again at events, would wear the Damn wristband and that's how I would introduce myself and that's how my profiles were set up.

即便如此，我觉得自己至少还是个隐藏的双向者，因为有时候只要心情到了，场景对了，我就会特别想被惩罚，有种强烈的渴望，非得满足不可。

But even with that, I feel like I was at least a closet switch because there were still times when if the mood struck me and it was the right scenario, I felt like I had to get spanked, I had a craving, and I wanted to satisfy that.

但我从不主动承认，也不会到处宣扬。

I just didn't really admit it or advertise that.

真正让我转变的，是疫情期间。我也说不清为什么，反正整整十四个多月，我一次都没玩过——当然，我不是在刻意数日子。

But for me, the point really came during COVID and I don't know why other than that I went fourteen months, not that I was counting, without any kind of play.

那十四个多月里，某种东西悄然改变了，不是开玩笑，我突然意识到：我得正视这一面的自己，得承认我确实享受两种角色，也该给自己自由，不只是承认，更要更频繁地去实践。

Something in those fourteen months just switched, no pun intended, that made me say, I need to own this part of myself and I need to really acknowledge that I do enjoy both sides and really give myself the freedom to not just admit that, but to pursue it more frequently.

所以疫情结束后的那些聚会，我干脆顺其自然：如果对方是主导方，那我就切换成服从方；

And so those events in particular and meetups that I had right after the whole fourteen month lockdown period, I really went with the flow and I was like, okay, if this is someone who is a Dom, fine, I'll switch with them.

如果对方是服从方，那我就当主导方。

If this is someone who's a Sub, fine, I'll Dom in that role.

有时候，我甚至会和同一个人中途换角色。

Or maybe I'll switch roles halfway through with somebody.

这种感觉真的让人轻松多了。

And it just became freeing.

我的确就是这种感觉。

And I mean that's really the sense that I had.

能坦然面对，打开这扇门，去探索更多可能性，真的特别自在。

It was freeing to be able to say, I'm gonna open up this door and have so many more opportunities to explore things.

这段经历真的很美好。

And it's been wonderful.

是的。

Yeah.

对我而言，这事儿还挺有意思的。

Yeah, for me it was funny.

我慢慢意识到，自己好像缺了点什么。

I just slowly started realizing that I felt like I was missing something.

后来有一天在Moonburn，我遇到了那个我最早在播客里提到的强势者。

And then at Moonburn one day, I met the bully who I talked about very early on in the podcast.

我就不重复讲所有细节了。

I'm not going to go over all of it again.

在播客的早期几期里，我提到过遇见他这件事。

Very early episodes of the podcast, I talk about meeting him.

不过从那以后我发现了一件事，这也跟我不喜欢的霸凌话题有关——只要看到有人手臂上有纹身，尤其是整条胳膊都是纹身的，我就会瞬间变被动。

One thing I've discovered, though, since then and this does play into the whole bully play stuff that I love is that I magically turn into a bottom in the presence of arm tattoos, particularly tattoo sleeves.

只要一个男人胳膊上全是纹身，我一靠近就自动变成被动的那一方。

If a guy's got their arms all tattooed, I just turn into a bottom around them.

我们每个人被触发的点还真是挺有意思的。

It's interesting the triggers that we have for that.

对我来说，是那种特别有父亲气场的人。

For me, it's someone who just brings a really strong dad vibe.

刚见面不到半秒，我就能感觉到。

In like half a second after meeting them, can feel it.

就像——

And it's like,

好吧，我确实想

Okay, yeah, I want to

特别想被你打屁股。

get spanked by you totally.

就是那种一见面瞬间就感觉到了。

And it's just that split second recognition.

对，没错，关于这个话题我们聊过，你处理切换角色的方式跟我有点不一样。

Yeah, no, so for me it's interesting because we've talked about this and the way that you approach switches is maybe a little bit different from mine.

我的经验是，我认识很多切换型的人。

And my experience, I know lots of switches.

我之前说过，Hot Seat Retreat 里大多数人都属于这一类，也有一些人，我跟他们在一起时总是固定扮演某个角色。

Like I said, the majority of people at Hot Seat Retreat were switches, and there are some guys who I'm mostly this way.

举几个例子，但大多数切换型的人，看到其他男性时，第一反应就会判断对方是主导方还是顺从方。

There are a few examples, but most guys who are switches will look at another guy on the scene and see them as a top or a bottom.

对我来说，只有少数几个人，我愿意跟他们来回切换，但对大多数人，我通常只会固定扮演一种角色。

For me, there's a small group of guys that I like going back and forth with, but most guys are usually either one or the other.

我不确定你是不是也这样？

I'm not sure if that's the case with you?

我其实一直在想这个问题，能跟我双向互动的人少之又少，一只手就能数过来，顶多再加几个手指头。

Well, I've been thinking about that and there's a very small number of people that I could probably count on one hand or maybe one hand and a couple extra fingers that I actually have played both sides with.

至于其他人，虽然我是双向的，但和他们玩的时候，要么一直当 submissive，要么一直当 dominant。

And everyone else, even though I'm a Switch, when I play with them, I'm either playing with them always as a sub or always as a dom.

能来回切换的，真的只有极少数人。

It's a very small number of people who we go back and forth.

而能在同一个场景、同一段时间里来回切换的，人数更少。

And it's an even smaller number of people who I would go back and forth with in the same setting, in the same scene, time period, I mean.

所以我也说不清这到底是怎么回事，但作为双向者，有些人会激发我的主导欲，有些人会激发我的服从欲，只有极少数人能同时激发两者。

And so I don't know how to exactly process that other than that as a switch, there's certain people who pull my Dom strings and certain people who pull my sub strings and just a very small group who pull both.

一路走来，试着弄清楚谁适合哪个角色，这个过程挺有意思的。

So it's been an interesting experience trying to navigate that and figuring out who's going to fit into what role.

并不是我不想双向玩，只是事情自然而然就变成了这样。

Not because I don't want to play both sides, it just kind of evolves that way.

所以这更多是顺其自然，而不是刻意选择的结果。

So that's more by just how it happens than by any conscious choice.

对，你提到过放手，我觉得这正是我在那种渴望中发现的一点。

Yeah, I mean you talked about letting go, and I think that's also one of the things I've discovered with that craving.

当我进入 submissive 的状态时，我之前也谈过其中的一些挑战。

When I get into bottom headspace, and I've talked about some of the challenges of doing that.

进入 submissive 状态，就是学会放手。

Bottom headspace is about letting go.

而 dominant 的状态，则是掌控一切。

Top headspace is about control.

我是个控制欲很强的人，所以要进入 submissive 的状态，真的需要花点功夫。

I am a control freak, And so being it it can take work to get into that bottom's headspace.

所以我一直在找那些让我能安心放手的人。

And so I am looking for guys that I feel comfortable letting go with.

对我而言，有趣的是，第一次给某人当 submissive 时，感觉就像在试镜一样。

And so, like, the funny thing for me is, like, the first few times I'm bottoming for guys is it's like an audition almost.

也就是说，这个人是不是我能信任的主导者？我能不能在他面前彻底放松下来？

Like, is this is this someone, you know, who I can see as a Dom, and I'm you know, and I can do that whole letting go?

其实吧，就在波托西的那次静修活动中，我跟三四个人玩得特别投入，天哪，那几次真的挺多的。

And I actually they're they're God, just for Potosi retreat, there are three, four, four, four, wow, I had a lot of play.

现在已经有四个男生，我可以开始这样看待他们了。

Four guys now who I can start looking at that way.

是的，你说得一点都没错。

Yeah, and you know, for me, it's exactly what you said.

两种心态真的完全不同。

The headspace is just wildly different.

至少对我而言，不存在一个能随时切换的心态。

There's not a switch headspace, at least for me.

我的状态要么是顺从，要么是主导，完全看当时的情境而定。

My headspace is going to be either sub or dom, depending on the scenario.

和你一样，我偶尔也会有点控制欲。

And like you, I can be a little bit of a control freak once in a while.

正因如此，我很久都不敢去探索自己的受方一面，也没能顺利过渡到更灵活的角色。

And that's what kept me for so long from exploring my sub side and transitioning into more of a switch role.

说真的，我就是害怕放弃一部分掌控感。

Because was, mean, I'll just, what I would say, I was afraid to give up some of that control.

花了不少时间，我才慢慢适应了这种放手。

And it took a while for me to get comfortable doing that.

但当我进入主导状态时，就算正在进行一场特别棒的互动，我也会在想：我的强度够不够？

But yeah, when I'm in Dom space, I mean, I can be enjoying a scene and it could be the most amazing scene ever, but I'm also thinking, okay, how is my intensity?

我的技巧怎么样？

How is my technique?

目标准不准？

How is the aim?

接下来该做什么？

What am I going to do next?

我一直在琢磨，怎么让这场互动往对双方都更好的方向发展。

And I'm really trying to think about how to evolve the scene in a direction that's good for both of us.

我真的很喜欢，但这需要付出努力。

And I love it, but that takes work.

当

When

当我处于 submissive 角色时，我依然觉得对场景有掌控感，如果事情朝着我不喜欢的方向发展，我依然可以做出调整。

I'm on the sub side, I still feel as though I'm in control of the scene in that if something was going in a direction I didn't like, I could do something about it.

但能放手让别人来主导，任由内啡肽自然流淌、享受那种兴奋感，真的特别轻松自在。

But it's just so freeing to be able to let someone else guide it along and to just let the endorphins flow and get the rush.

我在 subspace 里感受到的这种兴奋，是其他任何时刻都比不上的。

The rush that I get is unlike anything I've experienced when I'm in that subspace.

真的有种魔力。

It's magical, really.

是的。

Yeah.

这就是让我一次次回到这里的理由。

And that's what pulls me back.

这让我不断对自己说：没错，我想要更多这样的体验，而且我确实是个双面角色。

That's what keeps making me say, Yes, I want more of this, and Okay, I'm a switch.

太好了。

Great.

对，没错。

Yeah, yeah.

最让我有成就感的，就是能完成一场特别带劲的主导session。

Nothing makes me like I love when I'm able to give out a really good hard spaking session.

我真的特别喜欢这样。

I really I really do.

尤其是遇到那种能扛住我所有力度的伴侣。

Especially with the bottom who can take as much that I wanna dish out.

那种能把我累趴下的。

Like, one that tires me out.

作为主导方，这种session才是最棒的。

Those are the best sessions as a top.

对。

Mhmm.

但确实，当你明白过来，那种感觉特别释放，结束之后你会觉得，我做到了。

But, yeah, the the there is something very freeing when you know, and and liberating, and when you're done with it, you know, when it's over and you say, took that.

就像当你把对方累垮的时候，我也特别喜欢，因为那意味着，我掌控了这一切。

Like, when you're the one when you wear out your tops, you know, I love that as well because it's like, I took that.

当我进入 submissive 的状态时，其实不太适合角色扮演，这也是我当 submissive 时不太擅长角色扮演的原因；但一旦真正进入那种状态，情绪上来的时候，我会低吼。

When I'm in my bottoming headspace, it's kind of awkward for role play it is actually one of the reasons why I don't kind of role play all that well as a bottom, but when I get into my headspace as a bottom, when it gets intense, I growl.

所以每次回想起那段经历，只要想到那种时刻，我就会觉得，对，就是这样，太棒了。

And so when that happens, it is for me, when I'm going back at Tahiti about the scene, I think about if that happened, that's, like, good, good.

那就是我的空间。

That is, you know, my space.

我放开了。

I let go.

我允许自己这样。

I allow that.

这个声音是我决定硬撑下去时的一种本能反应。

That sound is this involuntary reaction to me deciding to tough it out.

所以我喜欢霸凌类的玩法。

And that's why I like bully play.

我不是喜欢当受害者，而是那种感觉让我联想到大学兄弟会的入会考验——新成员咬紧牙关，证明自己是个男人。

It's not like I like being a victim, but it's the idea it's inspired by frat hazing, really, and the idea of the pledge, you know, really gritting his teeth and proving that he's a man.

你懂的。

You know?

对吧。

Right.

那种心态就是这样的。

So that's the kind of mindset with that.

所以有时候场景会变得挺尴尬的，比如我被两个人同时围住，他们一边嘴上不饶人，

And so it just kind of creates awkward scenes where where I was being double teamed and they were verbal.

一边演得特别凶，骂我、按住我，那感觉简直太棒了。

They were being pretty verbal at me and role playing being bullies and also being very physical and holding me down, which was awesome.

但我并没有反应成‘天啊，我被欺负了’那样。

But I wasn't responding like a, Oh no, I'm being bullied!

我低吼是因为他们用了拍子，场面挺激烈的，我很享受，但也没装成受害者。

I was growling because it was they were using paddles, and it was pretty intense, and I loved it, but I also wasn't acting like a victim.

但那种感觉特别释放。

But it was very liberating.

它真的让我有了某种感受。

It did make me feel.

那之后我情绪高涨，后来又挨了一顿鞭子，完全是另一种体验。

I was on a high after that and then I got a flogging a little later which was just completely the other thing.

所以把言语互动和鞭打结合起来，身体两个地方都感受到冲击，整个周六下午直到晚餐前，我一直处于内啡肽飙升的状态。

So combining the spaking with the flogging getting all the impact play at two different places I was just kind of in an endorphin high for the entire Saturday afternoon before the dinner.

是的，我明显能感受到两种角色切换时，身体和情绪上的变化。

Yeah, me the change between the two sides is something I can feel physically and something that I feel emotionally.

我注意到，取决于我扮演哪一方，我的声音、语调，甚至说话的方式都会不一样。

I notice that my voice changes in terms of my tone and my pitch and just even how I speak, depending on which side I'm on.

身体上，当我沉入那种臣服状态时，和升入主导状态时，感觉完全不同。

Physically, I can feel very different when I'm melting into that subspace as opposed to when I'm kind of rising up into that dom space.

我都喜欢，但真的完全是两种感受。

And I love them both, but it truly is a different feeling.

我很享受角色扮演，它是我玩法中很重要的一部分。扮演不同的角色自然会带来不同的行为方式——比如当我是儿子时，我的表现肯定和当父亲时不一样，这由角色本身决定。

And I do enjoy role play as a key part of my play and having those roles is conducive to that because if I'm playing a son I'm going to conduct myself differently than if I'm playing a dad just by virtue of what those characters bring.

不过，那种内啡肽带来的感觉。

But yeah, the endorphin side.

我记得在Hot Seat和其他一些活动上，我们有一些共同的朋友，特别擅长用藤条。

I remember at Hot Seat and from other events as well, we have mutual friends who are excellent caners.

对。

Right.

虽然不算正式活动，但确实有个非正式的环节，大家排着队轮流挨打，看自己能承受多少藤条。

And there are, I wouldn't call it a formal event, but it's certainly an informal event where folks just line up and wait and take their turns with seeing how much they can take with a cane.

我总喜欢把这安排在一天的最后，因为那种内啡肽的高潮让我几乎像喝醉了一样踉跄回家，倒在床上，整个人瘫着，脑子里全是‘这世界怎么这么美好’的想法。

And I always like that to be the last thing I do on a particular day because the endorphin rush that that gives me, I just stumble home almost like I'm drunk and collapse into bed and just kind of lie there thinking about how wonderful everything in the world is after that experience.

那时候，再棒的 submissive 也别想让我分心，根本不可能让我回过神来，因为我正沉浸在那种美妙的内啡肽冲击里。

The best sub in the world couldn't distract me at that point and couldn't get me to be a Damn at that particular point in time because I'm just simmering in that subspace so beautifully with the Endorphin Rush.

这真是一种特别强烈的体验。

So it's a powerful experience.

另外，说到这个，我自己有个体会——我们刚才聊到这些差异。

And also, related to this, one thing I would observe at least for myself, we're talking about how there are these differences.

当个双面角色，反而让我在两方面都变得更出色了。

Being a switch has made me better on both sides, I think.

因为你真正接纳了两种身份，就能把它们融合起来。

Because really being able to own both sides, you can incorporate that.

当你当 dominator 的时候，能用上当 submissive 学到的东西，反过来也一样。

You can incorporate what you've learned as a sub when you're being a Dom and vice versa.

我觉得这真的让我的整个方式都变得更扎实了。

And I think that's just strengthened my whole approach to everything really.

这对我的帮助特别大。

And it's been great for that.

多做 submissive 之后，一个好处是能更敏锐地察觉对方的身体状态。比如你打下去的时候，能明显感觉到对方是不是放松了，因为你自己也经历过，知道什么时候身体真正放松下来。

Yeah, one of the good things that has come from bottoming more is being able to read your bottom's body when you're giving Like, a you can tell when they're relaxed, you know, you just have a better sense because you have that experience yourself of now relaxing when you're getting a spanky.

当强度增加时，你就能感觉到他们背部、肩膀和脖子开始紧绷。

You can feel like whenever the intensity level ramps up, can start feeling the tension in their back and shoulders and neck.

我会在心里把他们的反应和我自己的感受联系起来。

I make that mental connection that I do the same thing.

这其实是个很好的方式，能应对不同 submissive 表达方式的差异。

And so depending it's a great way to adjust to the fact that some bottoms are more verbal than others.

光听他们说不说，不一定能准确判断他们的真实状态——是不是该加码，是不是舒服，还是已经过头了。

And that's not necessarily a good sense of where their headspace is at, whether you need to ramp things up, whether they're feeling well, whether it's too intense.

我认识一些特别安静的 submissive，曾经有过场景太过了，他们当时一声不吭，事后我们才意识到。

Because I know of bottoms who are very, very quiet and have had scenes that were too intense, and they didn't say anything at the time, and we didn't find out until afterwards.

我当时就愣住了。

I'm like, Oh!

所以这一整套经验，其实就是慢慢学会通过身体反应的共鸣，去更准确地感知对方的状态。

So part of all this is kind of just learning now to I just have a better sense of the physicality of the bottom from making a mental connection between their body's reactions and my body's reactions.

没错，这真的特别重要。

Absolutely, that's so important.

反过来，当我做 submissive 的时候，我会想：我作为 submissive 时喜欢什么，而作为 Dom 又该怎么读懂我的 submissive？

On the flip side of that, when I'm subbing now, I think about, as a Damn, what are the things that I like from a sub, and how as a Dom do I read my sub?

于是我现在会试着把那些体验，回馈给任何当下主导我的人。

Well, try to now give that back to whomever is my Dom in any particular situation.

我不是故意装模作样，但这种体会确实影响了我的选择，也让我更能自然地表达自己的感受和喜好。

Not that I become artificial about anything, but it shapes some of my decisions and also allows me to be a little bit more free in communicating how things are going and what I'm liking and so forth.

所以我觉得，这确实是双向的。

So yeah, think that works both ways.

是啊。

Yeah.

说来有点不好意思，但我最近开始意识到，这感觉有点尴尬，毕竟我们俩都不是年轻人了。

I've kind of the funny thing is I've started to do it feels almost embarrassing to say this because, like, neither of us are well, we are of an age.

我们都到了当爹的年纪，这反而让角色切换特别自然。

We are of daddy age, which makes the switching great.

我最近开始做的一件事是，如果我进入那种状态，就会尽量把屁股抬起来展示出来。

One of the things I've started to do is, if I'm feeling that headspace, I do that thing I do my best to present my ass.

就是挺直背，把臀部抬高一点，让上面的人好好享受。

You know, arch my back, raise it up just really kind of let the top enjoy it.

再说一遍，重点是放松。当你放松下来，让臀部自然放松，这其实有两个特别棒的好处。

Again, the whole focus on relaxing, one of the great there are two great things that a top gets from that when you relax and just let your butt relax.

别收紧，别乱动，就让它自然地摊在那里，然后轻轻抬高。

Not squeezing it or doing anything, just letting it lay there and raising it up.

第一，对方当然能看得清清楚楚。

Number one, of course, they get a good view.

第二，对方能感觉到你很自在。

Number two, they know that you're comfortable.

所以说到反馈，你越放松，就越能鼓励那个主导的人，让他更有信心继续下去，甚至慢慢加码。

So when we talk about feedback, the more relaxed you are, it encourages the Dom, the more Dom knows that he can continue to play and even start ramping up.

他还能欣赏到你臀部轻轻晃动的样子。

And he gets to enjoy the sight of your butt bouncing.

我当上面的时候特别依赖视觉感受。

I am very visual when I'm atop.

我真的很看重视觉体验。

I'm very visual.

没有什么比看着屁股随着拍打弹跳更让我着迷了，不管是用手、拍板还是别的什么，看着它晃动的样子，我都特别享受。

I love nothing more than seeing a bouncy butt reacting to slaps, whether they're paddles or hands or whatever, seeing that butt jiggle and all that stuff.

当屁股开始发红的时候，如果对方用手打，你用力一拍然后迅速收回手，那一瞬间会留下一个白色的掌印，然后才慢慢变红。我慢慢学会了这些细节，也试着去主动做这些动作，毕竟我真的很不擅长角色扮演。

When the butt has started to turn red, if they give you a hand spanking, you hit them hard, and you pull the hand away, and there's that white handprint for a moment, you know, before the red comes So learning that, yeah, I try to turn that around and do these things, especially because, again, I'm so bad at role play.

那是下面的人该做的事。

That's the bottom.

挺有意思的是，你教即兴表演和角色扮演，而我意识到，作为下面的人，我有自己的特定心态，而且我觉得这个年纪了，大概也不会变了。

And it's funny because you teach improv and role play, and part of my realization is as a bottom I have my own particular headspace that exists on its own, and I don't think it's going to change at this age.

我作为上面的人，角色扮演的能力在进步，作为下面的人也是。

I'm getting better at roleplay as a top as a bottom.

我太享受这种感觉了，根本没法演戏，所以我才努力用身体信号来表达，比如我根本说不出‘对不起’这种话。

I love it too much to role play, so I'm trying to do those physical signals, you know, because I can't do the Oh, I'm so sorry.

哦，天哪。

Oh, no.

我最好的一次体验是手打，感觉特别棒，我觉得以后可以多试试手打。

The best I was able to do I did get a hand spaking, a really nice and working on I think I could do this more with hand spankings.

用拍板的时候，因为太刺激了，我根本控制不住，低吼就出来了。

With paddlings, because I love paddlings to get intense, I can't help but the growl takes over.

那种硬汉模式就自动开启了，像个强硬的受方。

You know, the tough guy takes over, the tough bottom takes over.

有一次我趴在膝盖上手打，就在自己房间里，试着放松下来，让屁股尽情地晃动。

But with hand spakings, what I did was I was getting over the knee hand spaking in my room, and I was able to do that sort of letting go and write some butt up.

我还试着慢慢加大力度。

I was also to kind of increase the timber.

于是我发出了一些呻吟，毕竟手打的强度还没到让我吼出来的地步，但确实又疼又爽，我很喜欢。

So I was doing these moans, you know, rather than doing the growling because they weren't intense enough to get me to that growling spot, although they did sting and hurt and I liked it.

但我把声音的音调提高了。

But what I did is I raised the pitch.