友谊中的冲突

嗨。

Hi.

欢迎回到Eat Your Crust播客。

Welcome back to Eat Your Crustpodcast.

我是Crystal。

I'm Crystal.

我是Jisoo。

And I'm Jisoo.

我觉得我开场白搞砸了，不过没关系。

I feel like I fucked up my intro, that's okay.

今天我们来聊聊朋友间的冲突。

Today we wanted to talk about conflicts in friendships.

其实，有位听众问我们能不能聊这个话题。

Actually one of our listeners had asked us if we could talk about this topic.

我们觉得这个主意很棒，所以终于把它排进了日程。

We thought it was a great idea so we finally were able to fit it into the schedule.

我觉得朋友间的冲突是个挺特别的话题和情况，因为人们常常会自然而然地把它和恋爱中的冲突相比较。

I think conflicts and friendship is a pretty unique topic and situation because it's often and very naturally compared to romantic relationship conflicts.

而且不知怎么的，朋友间的冲突好像从来没那么严重。

And for some reason it's just never as serious I guess.

也许“严重”这个词不太准确，但有时候跳过朋友间的冲突更容易，我也不知道为什么，但就是会发生。

Maybe serious isn't the right word but it's easier sometimes to skip over friendship conflicts just because I don't even know why but it just like happens.

偶尔提醒自己，有冲突是完全正常的，而且可以谈，这挺好的。

And it's nice to remember once in a while that it's totally normal to have conflicts and it's okay to talk about.

那我们先开始吧，你觉得随着我们年龄的增长，冲突有什么变化？

So to start us off, how do you think conflicts have changed as we've aged?

我觉得这些年变化很大。

I think they've changed a lot over the years.

这让我想起我中学时和朋友吵架的事，那时候不知道为什么，每件事都感觉特别严重。

It takes me back to fights that I would have with friends in maybe middle school or high school where for some reason everything felt very high stakes back then.

而且我觉得那时候不是一直有紧张，但可能更频繁，因为大家都是压力很大的学生，整天见面，又是荷尔蒙旺盛的青少年。

And I feel like there was not constant, but maybe just more frequent tension or things that would occur because we're all stressed out students, we're like seeing each other all the time, we're hormonal teenagers.

所以那时候，引发冲突的门槛非常低。

So the threshold for like conflict was very low.

但我觉得从大学开始，到二十出头那几年，我遇到的冲突更像是考验友谊的冲突。

But I think starting from college to my early to mid twenties, I felt like the conflicts that happened were kind of friendship evaluating conflicts.

高中时候的友谊就是，我喜欢跟这个人一起玩吗？我和这个人有一起上的课吗？

In high school, friendships were kind of like, do I like hanging out with this person and do I have classes with this person?

对。

Mhmm.

然后到了大学和二十多岁的时候，我觉得更多是在想，我多久想见这个人一次，这个人在我的生活中有没有位置，我在他的生活中有没有位置，以及长期合不合适。

And then in college to twenties, I think it was kind of understanding how often I wanted to see someone and whether this person had a space in my life and whether I had a space in this person's life and long term compatibility.

从二十多岁后期到三十多岁，我觉得其实没有那么多冲突了，但如果要说有什么小摩擦的话，可能是沟通方式，或者是我们在彼此友谊中占有的空间大小。

From late twenties to thirties, I don't think I really necessarily have as many conflicts anymore, but if I had to point something out that was maybe even a small point of contention, it could be a communication style or the amount of space that we hold in each other's friendships.

所以我觉得连引发冲突的原因这些年来都变了很多。

So I think even what is causing the conflict has changed a lot over the years.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

回想高中那会儿，就是，哦，某某因为某件鸡毛蒜皮的事生某某的气了。

I'm thinking back to high school and back then it was like, oh, so and so is mad at so and so because of you know some random trivial thing.

要么把事情说开，要么就不说。

And either you talk it out or you don't.

如果好好谈谈，usually问题就能解决。

And if you talk it out usually it solves it.

以我的个人经历来看，好像没有说开了还解决不了的。

I don't know if there was ever a time where you talk it out and it doesn't.

至少我没遇到过。

In my personal experience.

要是选择不说，那矛盾就会一直憋着，最后可能就只能跟这段友情说再见了。

Or if you don't talk it out then it just festers and then maybe you're you have to like move on from that friendship.

确实。

True.

而且我觉得那时候的关键就是，事情本身都很琐碎。

And I feel like another key part about that was like the trivialness of it all.

以前很多事，现在可能都不会让我们那么生气了。

A lot of situations back then probably wouldn't upset us as much now.

对。

Right.

不过我觉得你刚才说的关于二十多岁和现在的想法，我完全同意。

But I think I can totally agree with how you kind of laid out your thoughts on 20s versus now as well.

大学和二十多岁的时候，变化真的很多。

There's a lot of change happening throughout college and our 20s.

是啊，就像是在评估这个人值不值得我花时间，毕竟我有那么多事要忙。

Yeah, it is kind of like evaluating is this person worth my time when I have so many things happening.

认识新朋友或者尝试新事物，本质上就是看我想不想把精力花在这上面。

Meeting new people or doing new things, is this where I want my energy to go essentially?

而现在我们更稳定了，所以更像是，哦，我已经选好了身边的人。

And then now we're like more settled so it's more like, oh yeah, I've already kind of chosen the people around me.

也许这也是为什么现在日常生活中冲突少了一些的原因。

Maybe that's also a reason why there's a little less conflict that happens in our regular day to day.

对。

True.

我在想，这会不会也是因为我们这些年学会了一些技能，比如怎么管理人际关系。因为回想一下年轻的时候，我特别不擅长管理期望，不管是自己的期望还是朋友的期望。

I wonder if it's also like the skills that we have learned for ourselves and like managing relationships over the years because I feel like thinking back to when I was younger, I had a really hard time managing expectations, whether it was my own expectations or a friend's.

我总觉得我一直在想着自己有没有达到朋友的期望，同时又在判断对方是不是符合我对朋友的期望，然后试图找出那些矛盾的地方。但年纪越大，就越清楚自己的期望是什么，底线在哪里。

I felt like I was always wondering if I was living up to, like, a friend's expectations while simultaneously trying to evaluate if someone was living up to my expectations of a friend and like trying to see where that clash was versus the older you get, you already know your expectations and you know your boundaries.

所以如果你和一个人相处得很开心，这些根本就不会去多想。

So if you are having a really good time with someone, this wouldn't be top of mind.

但只要发生冲突，我就有自己的底线，比如心里会想，哦，好吧。

But when a conflict occurs, I would have my own boundaries of like, oh, okay.

这个人在踩我的底线，所以我清楚接下来该怎么做。

This person is crossing my boundaries, so I know what the next steps are.

但年轻的时候，你不知道自己的底线在哪，只会觉得特别纠结、难受，仅此而已。

Versus when you're younger and you don't know what your boundaries are, it's just distressing and that's it.

而且根本不知道接下来的路该怎么走。

Like there's no like path forward from that.

哦，那倒是真的。

Oh that's true.

有些东西是你自己能控制的，你能处理好自己的情绪。

Like some of it is within your control and you're able to deal with your own feelings.

对。

Right.

我之前都没想过这点，但你说得完全对。

I didn't even think about that but you're totally right.

因为如果有人只是偶尔做了件让你不太舒服的事，那感觉就是，哦，算了，没事。

Because if someone just does something that maybe bothers you this one time, it's kind of like, oh, well, it's fine.

就这么一次嘛。

It's like just this one time.

对。

Right.

我能控制自己的情绪，如果下次再发生，我也知道是什么让我不高兴。

I can control my emotions and I know what upset me if it were to happen again.

也许我已经准备好了下一步。

Maybe I have next steps ready.

对，没错。

Yeah, exactly.

也许还在于，你能把发生的事情分类，比如某件事让你总体上不开心。

Maybe it's also that being able to categorize something that happened that, for example, made you generally unhappy.

我年轻的时候，觉得所有事情都归为一类。

When I was younger, I think all of that would go into one bucket.

但长大后，就会觉得，哦，那只是有点烦人，但无所谓。

But then when you're older, it's like, oh, that was slightly annoying, but whatever.

而这件事却是友谊中的底线问题。

Versus this is like a deal breaker in a friendship.

你知道，这就像光谱的两端，但你能把它分类。

You know, it's like very opposite sides of the spectrum, but you're able to categorize it.

而年轻的时候，感觉所有事情都一样重要，你懂吗？

Versus when you're younger, it's like everything is equally important, you know?

对。

Yeah.

等等，天哪。

Wait, oh my god.

我一定要知道。

I need to know.

你觉得你现在心里有没有特别清楚的那种，朋友之间的底线？

Do you think you have deal breakers and friendships now that are like very clear in your own mind?

对，我觉得我确实有一些友情的底线。

Yeah, I think I do have friendship deal breakers.

但我觉得大概没有恋爱关系里的那种底线那么严格。

But it's not as like, I guess strict as a relationship deal breaker.

就像那些不知怎么的，感觉更重要，更严重。

Like those feel more high stakes for some reason.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得友谊里的底线，感觉是得是个很糟糕的人才会碰到的。

I feel like friendship deal breakers are like you would have to be like a terrible person or something.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我也觉得对伴侣会有更多底线很合理，因为很可能会和他一起住，或者花很多时间在一起。

I think it makes sense as well that we would have more deal breakers for a partner just because you're most likely gonna live with them or spend a lot of time with them.

那就意味着需要妥协或忍受的事情更多了。

And that just means there's more things that you have to, like, compromise or tolerate.

对。

Yeah.

所以在触及底线之前，能做的也就真的有限了。

And so there's only so much you can do before you reach a deal breaker.

确实。

True.

这让我有点好奇。

Actually, that makes me wonder.

你觉得在友谊里，是绝交的条件多，还是交朋友的门槛高？

Do you think you have more friendship deal breakers or more friendship barriers to entry?

哦。

Oh.

哦。

Oh.

是更难被录用，还是更容易被开除？

Is it harder to get hired or easier to get fired?

天哪。

Damn.

等等，这个问题问得太好了。

Wait, that is such a good question.

让我想想。

Let me think.

好吧，这有点难，因为我觉得录用过程是个漫长的过程。

Okay, this is a little hard because I think the hiring process is a long process.

比如分好几个阶段。

Like multiple stages.

对，因为认识一个人是需要时间的。

Yeah, because like, you know, you get to know people over time.

没错。

Mhmm.

有时候刚开始的时候，感觉很简单，就是觉得跟对方合得来。

And sometimes in the beginning, it can be as simple as like, I vibe with them.

所以可能他们一开始只是兼职被录用。

So maybe they're like hired part time.

但随着你慢慢了解他们，可能会发现一些新情况，然后你会想：哎呀，虽然我和他们挺合得来的，但他们有一个核心价值观跟我完全不匹配。

But then as you get to know them more, maybe some more things come to light and you're like, oh shoot, I do vibe with them, but they have this one inherent value that just does not match mine.

对。

Right.

也许他们现在就被移出名单了。

Maybe they're off the roster now.

哦，好的。

Oh, okay.

所以我猜在招聘过程中，你已经在给他们分类或者试探他们，看他们和你合不合得来。

So I guess during the hiring process, you're already categorizing them or vibing them out to see if they're compatible with you.

是的，我想是这样。

Yeah, I think so.

对。

Yeah.

但是也许，如果他们通过了第一关，那不太难，可能我已经有点喜欢他们了，所以更难对他们失去好感。

But maybe, like, if they pass that first stage, is not too difficult, maybe I kind of already like them a bit so it's harder to fall out of favor.

那倒是，因为你的筛选流程很好。

That's true because you have a good screening process.

除非他们做了什么可怕的事。

Unless they do something terrible.

对对对。

Right, right.

我不知道，我的筛选流程好吗？

I don't know, is my screening process good?

我就觉得，嗯，你眼光不错。

I'm like, yeah, you have good fives.

但我觉得可能就是这样。

But I think maybe that's also what it is.

也许我们年纪大了以后，和朋友之间的冲突会少一些，因为我们已经把不太合得来的人筛掉了。

Maybe we have less conflicts with friends when we're older because we've already screened out people that aren't as compatible.

对。

Mhmm.

而且现在看人的眼光也准了一些。

And then the vibe checking process is a little bit better now.

我觉得还有一个原因，现在我们很容易通过朋友认识新朋友。

I think it also helps because it's very common for us nowadays to meet people through people.

成年以后，想随便认识一个人就难多了。

It's a little harder to just randomly meet someone as an adult.

我们通过别人认识的人，其实也已经经过了一层筛选。

The people that we meet through others are already screened in a

对，也是这个道理。

way as well.

确实。

That's true.

就像领英上的联系人一样。

It's like LinkedIn connections.

不过我们还是回到“分手理由”这个话题吧。

But let's go back to deal breakers.

你觉得你是有明确的“分手理由”，还是有些是慢慢积累起来的？

Do you think you have like just clear deal breakers or are some of the deal breakers kind of a build up?

哦。

Oh.

我觉得你这个问题问得很好。

I think that's a good way of phrasing it.

我的那些不能容忍的点，可能更多是累积起来的。

My deal breakers are probably more of a buildup.

对。

Mhmm.

总的来说，我觉得缺乏信任可能就是一个不能容忍的点。

And generally, I would say lack of trust is probably a deal breaker.

通往不值得信任的方式有很多种。

There's many roads to get to, like, untrustworthiness.

对吧？

Know?

确实。

True.

比如，在具体事务上不太靠谱，

It could be, like, being not dependable in terms of logistical stuff,

嗯，对。

like Mhmm.

老是爽约，很久都不回消息，那种之类的。

Flaking all the time, being super unresponsive for long stretches of time, that kind of thing.

也可能是在其他方面不可靠。

Or it could be lack of trustworthiness and other aspects.

比如说能不能保密，或者在你需要的时候能不能以朋友的身份站出来。

I don't know, being able to keep a secret or just showing up as a friend when you need them.

所以我觉得那可能就是底线了，但这种事，得花时间才能证明你不值得信任。

So I think that is probably a deal breaker, but something like that, it takes a while to even prove that you're untrustworthy.

你知道的，这不像那种一次大冲突就结束的过程。

You know, it's not like a one and done major conflict kind of a process.

所以我觉得作为朋友，其实很难被'开除'。

So I think maybe it's hard to get fired as a friend.

好的。

Okay.

关于这个我有个后续问题。

I have a follow-up for this.

嗯。

Mhmm.

那我们就拿一个底线问题来举例吧。

So, let's use one of the deal breakers as an example.

因为我完全同意你刚才说的那些。

Because I totally agree with the ones that you have shared.

我觉得这些也是我交友里划红线、不能接受的那种。

I think they're also on my red flag deal breaker friendship category as well.

比如说你有个认识很久的朋友，突然变得特别爱放鸽子。

Let's say you have this long time friend and suddenly they're being really flaky.

这时候就产生冲突了，对吧？

So now it's a conflict, right?

确实。

True.

那你会直接说出来，还是怎么处理这件事？

Do you bring it up or how do you approach this?

天哪。

Damn.

这很难。

This is hard.

我觉得要看是哪个朋友。

I think it depends on the friend.

对。

Mhmm.

因为有些人比较能接受这种对话，甚至会觉得有建设性，但我觉得对另一些朋友来说，可能会让他们觉得被攻击，然后缩回壳里，变得很防御。

Because certain people are more receptive to conversations like that and might even find it constructive, while I feel like for other friends, it might make them feel attacked and might make them crawl back into a hole and feel defensive about it.

我想我得先判断这个人希望我们之间怎么沟通这种事。

I think I would have to evaluate how this person would want to communicate about something like this in the friendship.

是的。

Yeah.

但我可能会做的那个不好的做法是，对。

But the toxic thing that I would do Yeah.

我很容易想太多，也容易钻牛角尖。

I can be like a big spiraler, and I can also be someone that kind of gets in my head about things.

所以我的坏毛病就是，遇到这种情况，我会把各种可能性都想一遍。

So my toxic trait would be that I would take this situation and run through every scenario.

我会想，好吧。

I'm like, okay.

这个人老是放鸽子，是不是因为特别讨厌我？

Is this person flaky because they fucking hate me?

还是因为他们自己遇到了什么事？

Is it because they're going through something?

还是因为我是个不够好的朋友？

Is it because I'm being a bad friend?

我会把所有可能性都过一遍，然后在脑子里把它放大成一件大事，持续好一阵子。

I would run through all the scenarios and make it a huge deal in my head for like Mhmm.

可能过了一个月，我才会想到要提这件事。

A month before I would even think to bring it up.

我明白了。

I see.

所以很明显，我确实有些东西需要好好处理一下。

So clearly, have some things I need to work through.

你知道吗，如果是恋爱关系的话，不知道为什么感觉更容易开口，比如会说，对，我当然会提出来，然后我们会好好聊一聊。但我觉得我在这一点上和你挺像的，如果是朋友之间的事，我也会自己先在心里琢磨很久，然后想，哎，这个人是不是有什么情况？

You know, if it were a romantic relationship, for some reason it feels easier to be like, yeah, of course, I would bring it up and we would But talk about I think I'm similar to you in that if it were a friendship, I would also take time to think about it in my own head and be like, oh, like, is something going on with this person?

你懂的，也许下次他们会好一些。

You know, maybe they'll be better next time.

对。

Mhmm.

我会再给一次机会。

I'll give it another chance.

你知道，大概在某个点之前都会一直这样想，直到某个临界点，你就不得不直接说出来。

You know, that kind of thought process before probably some point has to be the tipping point where you just bring it up.

比如，嘿。

Like, hey.

注意到你最近老是放鸽子。

Noticed you've been flaking a lot.

怎么了？

What's up?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得，像放鸽子这种事，对我们俩来说，第一反应可能都是担心。

I mean, I think for something like flaking for both of us, I feel like our first thought would be like concern.

你懂吧？

You know?

就是，你那边还好吗？

Like, is everything okay over there?

我觉得有时候，正因为担心，反而更难开口提这件事。

I think sometimes when you are concerned, it can make it even harder to bring it up.

如果是那种冲突，比如有人做了敌对或者故意使坏的事，那就更容易直接指出来。

If it was a conflict where someone is doing something that feels antagonistic or something, for example, or like spiteful, then it's easier to call things out like that.

但这些年我学到的是，有时候确实有很严重的事情发生，那样我反而更不敢提起。

But what I've learned over the years is like sometimes there is something very serious happening, and then that makes me even more cautious to bring it up.

我也会想，这个人是不是准备好谈这件事了？

I would also wonder, is this person ready to talk about it?

有时候也是一种技巧，就是给朋友空间，让他们自己提出来。

Or sometimes it's the skill of giving your friends space to bring it up themselves.

而且我觉得这还引出一个问题，比如，如果你自己正经历一些事情，你又表现得爱爽约，你也知道自己爱爽约，你会希望朋友直接指出吗？还是希望朋友等你主动说？

And I think that also begs the question, like, if you were going through something in your life and you were being flaky and you knew you were being flaky, would you want your friend to call you out on it, or would you want your friend to wait until you brought it up?

我觉得得看他们怎么说。

I think it depends on how they bring it up.

对。

Mhmm.

因为如果他们是从关心的角度来提的，那我觉得完全没问题。

Because if they bring it up from a place of care, then I think that's, like, totally okay.

是的。

Yeah.

我可能会说，天哪。

I'd probably be like, oh my god.

对。

Yeah.

你知道的。

Know.

抱歉。

Sorry.

最近事情有点多，你知道的，各种乱七八糟的事。

Things have just been, you know, blah blah blah is going on.

然后我们就有机会聊一聊了。

And then, like, we'll have the space to talk about it.

对。

Yeah.

但如果更像是那种‘嘿，我们得谈谈’之类的，我会想这到底怎么回事？

But if it's more just like, hey like we need to talk or some shit like that, I'd be like what the fuck is going on?

对吧？

Right?

对。

Right.

所以我觉得，如果他们能好好组织语言的话。

So yeah, I think it's like, if they're able to craft their words well.

如果他们能以恰当的方式提出来，那其实就是在为你创造一个安全的空间，让你们能讨论这个问题，也许因为你忙或者别的什么，你还没找到时间跟朋友聊这件事。

If they're able to bring it up in a good way, then they're actually bringing a safe space to you to be able to talk about this problem when maybe because you're occupied or something you haven't had the time to create that space to talk with your friend yet.

对，确实是这样。

Yeah, that's true.

而且我也觉得，当友谊里出现冲突时，能往前推进、解决掉，其实会大大加深你们的友谊。

And I also feel like being able to move forward or, like, make progress when conflicts happen in a friendship also builds your friendship up a lot, actually.

没错，它让你们之间更加信任彼此。

Like, it creates even more trust between you guys.

这几乎是为将来的冲突立了个先例，因为你们有了一套行之有效的处理流程，懂吧？

It almost like sets a precedent for future conflicts because there's like a proven process, you know?

就像，哦，我们已经从这种尴尬、敏感或沉重的事情中走出来了，而且我们的友谊还保持着。

It's like, oh, we've moved on from this when this was awkward or touchy or heavy, and then we still have maintained our friendship.

所以，是的。

So Yeah.

从大局来看，我觉得冲突不一定总是坏事。

In the grand scheme of things, feel like conflict is not necessarily always bad.

但要达到那种能和朋友委婉地谈论这些事情的技能水平，可能非常具有挑战性。

But to be able to get to that skill level of being able to, like, delicately talk about these things with your friend can be very challenging.

我觉得在我二十出头的时候，有些友谊就因为我当时还没有掌握这种技能，或者我的朋友没有，或者我们俩都不够成熟，友谊还没到那个份上而失去了。

I feel like there are friendships that I have personally lost in my early 20s because I didn't have the skill yet or maybe my friend didn't have the skill yet or we just both collectively, like our friendship wasn't there.

我们的友谊还没到那个层次，或者不够契合，无法从那样的事情中走出来。

It wasn't at that level or compatible enough to move on from things like that.

所以对我来说，这些都是很大的教训。

So for me, have been big learnings.

因为我觉得通常很多人都是出于好意，但真正难的是如何委婉地表达。

Because I think usually a lot of people come from a good place, but it really is being able to word things delicately that is so hard.

对。

Yeah.

我一直在想，在这种咱们聊过的情况下，该怎么开口提这件事。

I've been like brainstorming ways to bring it up in this situation that we've been talking about.

我觉得我在工作中用过的一个方法可能挺管用。

And I feel like like a tactic that I kind of use at work might be helpful.

因为你知道，在工作中我们有截止日期，也有各自的责任。

Because you know at work we are working with deadlines and we have responsibilities.

所以归根结底，我们很容易就默认去承担那些责任。

So ultimately it's really easy for us to default to those responsibilities,

就像，

Like,

嘿，我前两天就需要你帮忙做那件事了。

Hey, I needed this thing from you a couple days ago.

但后来有人给我提过个建议，说别忘了你还是在跟别人一起共事呢。

But then like a suggestion that I was once offered was, hey, don't forget that you're still working with people.

所以除了提出这个问题，还要带点真诚，甚至展现一下你自己的脆弱，对吧？

So just beyond bringing up the issue, also put in some realness or even your own vulnerability, right?

嘿，我知道最近真的很忙，只是想关心一下你，确认你还好。

Hey, I know it's been really busy lately, like just wanted to check-in to make sure you're okay.

这件事进展怎么样了？

How's the progress going on this?

不管是哪个项目。

Whatever project.

这和那种“我两天前就需要这个”的说法完全不一样。

And then that's like so much different than like a, I needed this two days ago.

对吧？

Right?

确实。

True.

所以我觉得和朋友相处大概也需要用类似的方式。

So I feel like that's probably a similar approach that you would wanna take with friends as well.

比如说，嘿，我注意到你最近经常放鸽子。

Like, of being like, hey, notice you've been flaking a lot recently.

你可以说，嘿，只是想关心一下。

You could be like, hey, just wanted to check-in.

你还好吗？

Is everything alright?

注意到你很多事情都没能参加。

Notice that you haven't been able to come through to a lot of things.

只是想确认一下，如果你需要聊聊，我都在。

Just wanna make sure if you need to talk, like I'm there or something like that.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得这大概也是我们朋友圈里大多数人处理事情的方式。

And I feel like that's generally how a lot of people in our friend group at least approach things as well.

对。

Mhmm.

你知道吗，你刚才说的时候我就在想，因为确实是这样。

You know, I was kind of thinking while you were saying that because it is very true.

有时候人们生活中就是有些事，让他们表现得不一样，或者从友谊中抽离，或者就是想更封闭自己。

Like, sometimes there's just something going on in people's lives and it causes them to maybe act differently or pull away from a friendship or just wanna be more reclusive.

我觉得我们都经历过一些事情，让我们自己也变成那样。

I think we've all had experiences where we've personally gone through stuff and it makes us act exactly the same way.

而且我觉得带着同理心去面对别人，是你这辈子都需要做到的，因为我妈就遇到过，她一个朋友当时个人生活里有很多事。

And I think showing up with empathy is something that is just kind of required for the rest of your life because my mom had an experience where one of her friends was going through a lot in her personal life.

特别是到了我们父母那个年纪，要面对的问题大得多，对吧？

Especially when you get to our parents' age, you're dealing with much bigger problems, right?

不管是父母去世，还是离婚，或者经济上的危机，这些都比我们在高中经历的那些，比如考试没考好或者什么乱七八糟的事，要严重得多。

Whether it's a parent passing away or you're going through a divorce or something financial, like crises that are much bigger than just things that we've gone through in high school of like failing an exam or some shit.

对。

Yeah.

我记得我妈说，哦，你知道，我朋友最近说话可能不太客气，或者情绪化，或者容易发脾气，但那是因为她个人生活里有很多事。

I remember my mom was like, Oh, you know, my friend has been maybe not as kind in her words or maybe more emotional or more volatile, but it's because she's going through a lot in her personal life.

所以我就给她三到五年的时间恢复正常。

So I'm gonna give her like the next three to five years to come back to normal.

我当时就想，天呐。

And I was like, holy shit.

三到五年？

Three to five years.

我记得她跟我说这个的时候，我大概是在高中后半段。

And I remember she was telling me this when I was in like maybe late high school or something.

我当时觉得这太离谱了，因为你知道，越年轻的时候，同情心和耐心越少。

And I just thought it was so insane because, you know, the younger that I was, I had less empathy and less patience than what I have now.

所以对我来说，哪怕是一个月时间都显得很长。

So to me, even, like, a month or something was very long at the time.

但后来我明白了，对，如果那个人是你真正在乎的人，又是你有几十年的老朋友，那么给三到五年时间其实也不是说不过去的，对吧？

But I realized, yeah, if it's someone that you really care about and someone you've had decades of friendship with, for example, it isn't actually preposterous to give someone like three to five years, you know?

当然，如果对方真的一直对你种恶劣，你完全有理由选择离开。

And granted if someone is being really fucking terrible to you, you have a good enough reason to walk away if you wanted to.

但如果是一个特别重要的朋友，觉得给他们这么长时间去调整，其实也不算过分。

But if it is a really important friend, then it's not so crazy to think that you would give them that much time.

我当时就想，好吧。

So I was like, okay.

好的友谊是那种即使我们比现在年长很多，也依然愿意给予对方的东西。

Good friendship is something that you give to someone even when you're a lot older than we currently are.

你懂的？

You know?

对。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my god.

我还在想，你在高中的时候，那个时间跨度意味着什么。

I'm just also thinking about that time frame when you're in high school.

你会觉得，这比整个高中时期还要长呢。

You're like, that's longer than high school.

确实。

True.

那可是一辈子。

That's a whole lifetime.

太对了。

So true.

不过确实，这完全说得通。

But yeah that totally makes sense.

哇，其实我现在想想，你可能之前在节目外跟我讲过这个故事，因为几年前我外公外婆去世了，我记得我当时还担心过这个。

Woah actually now that I think about it, maybe you told me this story before off the pod because a couple years ago, my mom's parents passed away, and I remember worrying about that.

我当时就想，天哪，她接下来几年会不会一直很难过？

I was like, Oh my god, will she be, you know, really emotional for the next few years?

而且我觉得我脑子里也隐约有那个想法，就是，好吧。

And I think I kind of mentally had that in my head too, like, okay.

我就想，给她几年时间，看看她怎么应对这一切。

I'll give it, like, a couple years and see how see how she reacts to everything.

所以可能我是被你的故事启发了。

So maybe I was inspired by your story.

你当时就想，哦，好吧。

You're like, oh, okay.

三到五年。

Three to five years.

但是，对，我觉得这也很难，因为有时候人们还不想分享。

But, yeah, I feel like it's hard too because sometimes people don't want to share yet.

也许这就是亲密朋友和普通朋友之间的区别。信任已经在那里了，所以也许他们一开始没提，但当你轻轻试探一下，他们就愿意分享，然后你就会恍然大悟，哦，原来是这样。

Maybe this is like what differentiates a really close friendship with a not as close friendship where the trust is already there so maybe they didn't bring it up in the first place, but when you prod them gently, they'll be willing to share with you and then you'll be like, oh, okay, so that's what's going on.

现在我明白是怎么回事了。

Now I know what's happening.

这其实已经算是解决冲突的一种方式了。

And that's already kind of like conflict resolution in a way.

确实如此。

That's true.

就是了解你朋友的生活背景，知道他们最近在经历什么。

Like getting the context and knowing what's happening in your friend's life.

因为我觉得，哪怕是一些小事让你有点烦，当你提出来并且理解朋友为什么会那样表现时，你根本气不起来。

Because I think even if it's something petty that's kind of bothering you when you bring it up and you understand why your friend might be acting that way, it's so hard to even stay mad.

就像，天哪，我很抱歉你在经历这些，之类的。

It's like, Oh my god, I'm so sorry you're going through that or whatever.

好吧，

Okay,

其实，既然我们聊到分享这件事，我在大学里还真有过一次经历，当时我没有跟一个比较亲近的朋友分享一些事情。

actually, since we're talking about sharing, I've actually had an experience in college where I didn't share something with one of my closer friends.

他们跟我说他们感到受伤了。

They shared with me that they felt hurt.

因为我没有跟他们分享那个信息。

I didn't share that information with them.

而且那个朋友其实也不算特别熟，是大学里才认识的朋友。

Were like kind of a newer friend too, like a friend that I made in college.

我发觉他们还不了解我的一些事。

I realized that some things they didn't know about me yet.

所以他们提出来真的很好。

So it was like very good that they brought that up.

因为第一，这让我反思自己的行为，我就想，是啊，我为什么没分享呢？

Because one, it made me think about my actions where I was like, yeah why didn't I share this?

我其实并不介意跟他们分享。

I have no issues sharing it with them.

但我就把自己的想法告诉了他们。

But I just shared my thoughts with them.

我就说，是啊，不好意思，我这个人比较注重隐私，我觉得我慢慢在进步，但还差一点。

Was like, yeah sorry, like I'm just kind of more of a private person so I think I was getting there but I wasn't there yet.

第二，

Two,

这很好，因为我们俩都更了解彼此了。

it was good because then we both learned something about each other.

哦，这个

Oh, This

这个人不喜欢被蒙在鼓里，尤其是那些可能影响友谊的事情。

person doesn't like to be in the dark about things going on that could affect the friendship.

而且，他们觉得和我关系够近，才会提起这件事；如果他们遇到同样的情况，他们也会分享。

And also, they feel close enough to me that they can bring this situation up also if they had been in my situation, they would have shared.

我觉得这反而让友谊更进了一步。

And I feel like that almost improves the friendship a bit.

天哪，他们竟然这么看我？

Oh my god, they feel that way about me?

我想，为什么我之前没有这种感觉呢？

I guess, like, why have I not been feeling that way?

这也让你更愿意接受这一切。

It makes you feel more receptive to it all, too.

哇。

Wow.

你朋友这么做其实挺勇敢的，因为你提到这段友谊还比较新。

That's actually really brave of your friend because you mentioned that it was a slightly newer friendship.

我觉得进入一段新友谊，然后能把这些期望或者被冷落的感觉说出来，确实挺有挑战性的。

And I feel like it can be challenging entering a new friendship and being able to communicate these expectations or feeling left out or something.

不知道为什么，在长期的友谊里说这些好像更容易，可能是因为你有那种信任，觉得，哦，好吧。

It feels easier in, like, longer term friendships for some reason, maybe because you have that trust that, oh, okay.

这段友谊已经撑过十年了。

This friendship has survived the last ten years.

就像，肯定也能撑过下一个十年。

Like, surely it'll survive the next ten.

但新友谊感觉更脆弱一些。

But newer friendships feel more delicate.

所以我觉得你那样拆解分析，会让这件事听起来没那么吓人。对。

So I think the way you break it down makes it feel less scary Mhmm.

去提这样的事。

To bring up something like that.

不过我还是觉得有点吓人。

But I still think it's a little scary.

要是能帮上忙的话，那晚我们喝得挺多的。

If it helps, we got drunk that night.

这确实有帮助。

That definitely helps.

我想我们是先喝了点酒，然后快到晚上的时候出去转了转。

I think we, like, were drinking and then we went out towards the end of the night.

所以也许她是在鼓起勇气。

So maybe she was mustering up the courage.

她大概是这么说的：顺便提一下，你这件事没亲自告诉我，而是让我从别人那儿听说的，我心里挺不是滋味的。

She was like, by the way, I, like, didn't feel great about how you didn't share this with me personally, and I heard about it through someone else.

我当时心想，天哪。

And I was like, oh god.

不行。

No.

其实我本来也会告诉你的。

Like, I would have shared it with you eventually.

我只是对这些事比较私密。

I'm just a little private about these things.

所以……

So

对。

yeah.

好。

Okay.

我有个问题想问你。

I have a question for you.

嗯。

Yeah.

你觉得在友谊中，主动提出冲突更难处理，还是被对方提出冲突更难处理？

Do you think it's harder to navigate being the person bringing up a conflict in a friendship or getting the conflict brought up to you in a friendship?