第二语言中的自我（嘉宾：林安琪，RealYouMandarin）

很多人在结婚前都会和父母聊这类话题，我觉得。

So there's this, I think many people have these conversations with their parents, especially when they're pre marriage and stuff.

他们总会问：你什么时候结婚啊？

And they're like, when are you gonna get married?

你总不能一直这么拖着吧。

Like, I'm not getting any younger.

我们都已经给你生了孩子了，别忘了，孙子都快有了。

We're giving you some kids already, you know, like grandkids already.

但就在上一课里，我们也教了一些词，比如流产、试管婴儿，这些词我们平时在英语圈里早就聊得多了。

But through that last time, we also teach things like I think miscarriage is one of our vocab words and IVF and all the things like a lot of us are talking about already in English with our peers.

但如果你真想跟亚洲的亲戚聊这些，就会发现，这些词你根本不会说。

But if you wanted to talk about that with your cousins or other people back in Asia, you would realize pretty quickly like you don't know those words.

这正是我们做这门课的初衷——想让大家能直接开口，聊这些真实又复杂的话题。

That's kind of our motivation behind the course is we want to give people this like jumpstart into knowing what it would feel like to have a realistic conversation about these types of topics.

之前你还提到过政治之类的话题。

So earlier, you also mentioned like politics and stuff.

我们其实是去年开发了这个课程。

We actually made this course last year.

那时候还没到正式选举的时候。

So was before the actual election.

不过我们确实做了一课，专门讲怎么讨论选举。

But like, we did make a lesson around talking about the election.

内容都是你平时生活中早就聊过的话题。

And it's everything you already talked about in like normal life.

但你该怎么用中文来说这些呢？

But how would you do that in Mandarin?

当然，不可能面面俱到。

Obviously, can't cover everything.

对吧？

Right?

但我相信，它能让你更有底气去跟想聊的人开口谈这些事。

But I do like to think it gives you confidence into starting to have those conversations with people you want to have them with.

你可以大概猜到对方会怎么回应，因为对话设计得非常贴近真实生活。

You kinda can anticipate what someone might say in response because it is meant to be very realistic.

所以我们就是这么处理的。

So that's how we kind of approach that.

不是直接丢给你五百个单词让你背，而是让你在真实的对话场景里自然学会这些词怎么用。

Instead of like, here's just 500 vocab words for you to memorize, it's really in context of what that conversation might actually be where you use that vocab word.

我觉得这挺有帮助的，因为我们刚才提到的那些情况，确实都遇到过——比如没听清某个词，要么问对方什么意思，要么干脆就放过去了。

I think that's pretty helpful because there are definitely moments that we've all described so far where maybe you like didn't recognize a word and then you ask what did that mean or you kind of just like let it pass.

但那种时候，反应特别快。

But when that happens, it's so quick.

可能就在那一秒，你心里一亮：哦，原来这个词是这个意思。

Maybe in that one second, you're like, oh, okay.

现在我知道这个词怎么用了。

Now I know what that word means.

但过一会儿，比如第二天，你可能会突然想：哎呀，糟了。

But then later, like, probably the next day, you'll be like, oh, shoot.

怎么说

How do

呢

you say

啊？

it?

又流产了？

Miscarriage again?

是啊。

Right.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得要是有个课程能帮我们彻底掌握，应该会很有帮助。

And so I feel like having a course to like really nail it in probably helps a lot.

我也觉得

And I feel like it

倒也不是说

would not to say

我们跟父母聊天只是随便聊聊，但某种程度上，你的词汇量确实有限，我觉得这往往会成为你默认的选择。

that we're just small talking with our parents, but to a certain extent, your vocabulary is limited, I feel like that could be the default path that you go down.

把对话保持得简单轻松，只聊你觉得舒服的话题，然后就继续过自己的日子，复杂的事情留着跟朋友说。

Keep the conversation very simple and light, just talk about things that you are comfortable talking about and then just move on with your day and keep the complex stuff for your friends.

我觉得，一方面要有能力进行这样的对话，另一方面也要自己主动投入，不能光指望父母去学英语版本的表达。

So I feel like having that base to be able to have those conversations and also at the same time putting your own effort into it, And not just expecting your parents to learn the English version of it.

这真的很棒。

It's really cool.

是的。

Yeah.

不过说真的，这让我想起一件事。

Dude, this kind of reminds me though.

有个词我直到去年年初才知道，当时我特别惊讶，居然从来没问过或者学过怎么表达这个。

There was a phrase that I didn't know until probably like beginning of last year and I was so shocked that I never asked or learned how to say this.

用中文说起来挺别扭的。

It's awkward in Mandarin.

有一天我爸爸说了点什么，然后他附和了一声：‘对。’

And my dad was saying something one day and he was like, yeah.

我当时有点尴尬，因为工作中有人把我推到了一个挺尴尬的境地。

I was, like, feeling kinda awkward because, like, someone put me in a weird spot at work.

我就问：‘这个词到底啥意思？’

And I was like, what does that word mean?

他回我：‘兄弟，我也不懂。’

And he's like, dude, I don't even know.

于是我们一块儿查了词典，结果发现：‘哦，原来就是‘别扭’的意思。’

So we looked it up together, and they were like, oh, it means awkward.

但大概两周后，我彻底把这个词忘了，只好去问一个中文特别好的朋友。

But literally, like, maybe two weeks later, I completely forgot the word, so I had to ask one of my friends who is much better at Chinese.

他一听就说：‘哦，对。’

And they're like, oh, yeah.

这个词就这么说，尴尬。

This is how you say awkward.

我当时就想，好吧。

And I was like, okay.

我得把这个词记牢，因为这词特别实用。

I need to commit this to memory because this is, like, a very useful word.

奇怪的是，我虽然经常觉得尴尬，却从来没用过这个词。

For some reason, I have never used it even though I do feel awkward a lot.

我觉得这事儿还挺让人恍然大悟的，我当时就想，等等。

I think it was also eye opening because I was like, oh, wait.

我爸妈其实也会有这种感觉。

My parents can also feel this feeling.

我只是从来不知道该怎么表达它。

I just never knew the phrase for it.

他们到底经历过多少次，因为一次互动就忍不住说，哎呀，我真觉得挺尴尬的。

Like, how many times have they been like, oh, actually, I feel hella awkward from, like, this one interaction.

我就说，对啊。

And I was just like, yeah.

一脸茫然，然后

Blank stare and

微笑着。

smiling.

是的。

Uh-huh.

没错。

Yeah.

我对这事有两个想法。

I have two thoughts about that.

一个是我会继续推广我的课程，不过这也算是谈话的一部分。

One is I'm gonna keep plugging my course, but that's kind of I mean, it's part of the conversation.

对吧？

Right?

对，就是这样。

So Mhmm.

我觉得，我们课程设计对话形式的一个重要原因，是因为光看是不够的。

The dialogues, I think one of the reasons I wanted this to be like the base way that you learn through our courses is it's not just like watching it.

光盯着看，能记住的东西其实很有限。

I think there's only so much you can retain when you watch something.

关键是要亲自去练习。

It's about doing it as well.

我是在开始学日语的时候，才接触到一种叫‘影子跟读’的方法。

So I only learned this technique called shadowing when I started learning Japanese.

我们鼓励大家播放对话，也就是我和我的中文老师搭档之间的角色扮演。

But essentially, we encourage people to play the conversation, which is role playing between me and the Mandarin teacher partner that I worked with.

我们希望你跟着我们说的话一起复述。

We want people to shadow what we say.

当你播放时，就试着和我们同时开口模仿，这样不仅能练到对话里新学的词汇，还能掌握自然的语速、语调，以及表达这些内容时该有的语气和感觉。

So basically, when you play it, you're trying to mimic what we're saying at the same time that we speak, so that you are getting the practice in with your own mouth for like how to say that, not only the vocab that is new to you in the context of the conversation you want to have, but also the natural speed and like the tone, the type of expression you might have when you're saying those things.

这样你就已经体会到说那番话是什么感觉了。

So that way you've already felt what it feels like to have that conversation.

等你真去聊的时候，就会觉得熟悉多了。

It'll feel more familiar to you later on when you do try to have that conversation.

我们也会帮大家反复强化这些内容。

And also we kind of help people try to hammer it in.

我经常遇到这种情况，刚听到一个新词，过一会儿就忘了。

I have that happen all the time where I hear a new word and I just like forget it later.

我明明两天前才学过，怎么现在就想不起来了。

I'm like, I swear I learned this two days ago, but I don't remember it.

我用了好多年的工具，很多语言学习者都知道，叫Anki。

Something that I've been using for many years, I think a lot of language learners know this app as well, something called Anki.

它是个数字闪卡系统。

It's like a digital flash card system.

它是开源的，你可以自由地按自己的方式使用。

It's open source, so you can kind of just like do whatever you want with it.

但我们提前为学员准备好了这些课程核心词汇的Anki电子闪卡。

But for us, we pre built Anki digital flashcards for people of the main vocab words in these lessons.

每张卡片都包含中文、拼音、英文翻译、例句和音频发音。

And they all have the Chinese, the pinyin, the English translation, a sample sentence and the audio pronunciation.

Anki的原理是，它不像纸质闪卡那样看一遍就完事，而是会不断让你复习。

And essentially what Anki does is like, instead of just being paper flashcards, you just kind of like go through it, right?

你要是觉得记住了，它就慢慢减少出现频率；要是老记错，它就频繁出现。

And you like throw it away or forget it.

Anki是靠算法驱动的。

Anki is algorithmic.

它会根据你答对或答错的情况，动态调整每张卡片的复习频率。

So it essentially shows you different flashcards in varying frequencies based on if you keep getting it right or wrong.

如果你老是记错某个词，它就会反复出现，直到你真正掌握为止。

So if you keep getting something wrong, it'll show you more frequently until you get it right.

所以我们帮大家省去了自己制作卡片的麻烦。

And so we kind of took the legwork out of it for people.

我用Anki很多年了，最烦的就是自己做卡片。

Like for me using Anki for many years now, the biggest annoyance is making the flashcards.

我真的不想花时间去弄这个。

Like, I don't want to take the time to do it.

我们直接帮你做好了，下载就能用。

We're like, here you go, just download it.

我们就是想让大家更容易地练习——怎么用这些词开口说，同时也能通过卡片巩固词汇。

We're trying to make it as easy as possible for people to get the practice in of how would I use this vocab with my own mouth, and then also the practice of the vocab with the flashcards.

你刚才说的时候，我想起另一件事，那个游戏虽然现在还能买到，但我记得是五年前刚推出的，叫《父母也是人》卡牌游戏。

And then the other point I thought about when you were speaking was, do you guys remember that well, it's still out, but I just remember it came out like five years ago, but Parents Are Human, card game.

我一上市就买了，觉得这玩意儿太棒了。

So I bought it like right when it came out because I was like, oh, this is so cool.

要是有人不知道，这是一款卡牌游戏，里面都是些特别发人深省的问题，专门问父母的。

If people don't know what that is, it's this card game that has like very thought provoking questions for your parents.

一面是英文，另一面最初是中文，现在已支持很多种语言了。

On one side, it's English, the other side, it started with Chinese, but now it's got like many, many languages.

我们可能只了解了父母性格中很小的一部分，因为我们很少问他们更深层的问题。

And the idea being, we've probably only unlocked a small portion of our own parents' personalities because we don't ask them about deeper stuff.

这款游戏刚推出时，我就和父母一起玩了，真的觉得特别棒。

So I played that game with my parents when it first came out, and I thought it was so cool.

我从中学到了很多以前完全不知道的关于父母的事。

I learned a lot of stuff that I like never knew about my parents.

但最近我重新想到这件事时，觉得这真是个不错的起点。

But when I thought about it kind of recently, I was like, this is a good starting point.

不过有时候，当聊到这些深层话题时，我也听不太懂他们到底在说什么。

But sometimes I don't really know what they're saying back to me when it's these deeper conversations as well.

或者我不知道该怎么继续深入下去。

Or I don't know how to like push it forward more.

因为如果我用英语问，他们往往就只会说：‘我不知道。’

Because if I ask it in English, they're kind of like, Oh, I don't know.

但如果我早就掌握了一些相关词汇，也许就能聊得更深了。

Versus like, if I had some more vocabulary around those topics already, maybe I could get deeper.

是的，我也说不清楚，就是脑子里乱糟糟的，关于这些事有太多角度可以想了。

Yeah, I don't know it's just kind of swirling around in my head there's so many ways to think about all this stuff.

我觉得，代沟本来就让了解父母变得特别难。

I feel like it's already so challenging to get to know your parents when there's a generation gap.

对。

Yes.

尤其是我们这一代和父母那一代，日常生活中用的技术差异已经大得离谱了。

Especially for our generation and our parents generation because the technology difference that we're used to in our daily lifestyle is already so massive.

再加上语言障碍，想真正了解他们就更难了，所以我之前提到过，但每次看到我爸妈用韩语自在社交时，我都忍不住想：天啊，你们在韩语里简直太有魅力了。

But adding language on top of that just makes it so much harder to get to know them, which is why I mentioned this earlier but it's it's so rewarding for me to see my parents engage in their social life where I'm like, damn, you guys are rock stars when you speak Korean.

不是说他们用英语就不行，只是他们习惯了用韩语而已。

Not that they're not, you know, when they speak English but it's just, that's what they're used to.

他们在那种环境里才真正放松自在。

They're so much more comfortable in that environment.

是啊，这说明他们可能只看到我们性格的一部分，就是那些能观察到的、我们有限表达出来的部分。

Yeah, I guess it just goes to show that, you know, maybe they don't know our full personality except from what they can observe and what we communicate, limitedly communicate.

但反过来也完全成立。

But then the vice versa is also very true.

我其实也有个‘父母也是普通人’的卡片套装，有时候就会随便抽一张。

I actually also have the my parents are human' card deck, and sometimes I'll just like pull one.

我从不告诉父母我有这东西，只是抽一张，心想：这问题问得真不错。

I don't tell my parents I have it, I just pull one and I'm like, Oh, this is a pretty good question.

然后我就在吃饭时问他们。

I'll ask this at dinner.

确实如此。

It's so true.

有些问题其实特别简单，但我一看就愣了：天啊，我居然一点都不了解父母这些事。

Like, some of the questions were really basic, and I was like, oh my god, I don't know this about my parents.

比如，你上学时最喜欢哪门课？

Something like, what was your favorite class or something when you were in school?

我当时就傻了。

And I was like, what?

其实吧，这种事挺简单的，你对大多数朋友大概都心里有数。

Like, how this is such a simple thing that, like, you probably know a general idea of for most of your friends.

比如说，他们擅长什么，或者特别喜欢哪方面的玩意儿。

Like, oh, you know, they were good at this or they liked that certain area of stuff.

可我真说不上来。

And you're like, I don't know.

我爸妈喜欢什么呢？

What did my parents like?

他们是被逼着选了现在这份工作，还是自己选的？

Were they forced into their career path, or did they choose it?

诸如此类的问题。

You know, all that kind of stuff.

我觉得，随着我们长大，真正成了大人之后，才慢慢意识到，原来爸妈也跟我们一样。

So I think part of it is as we get older and become, like, fully fledged adults, sort of, we start to realize, Oh, our parents are just like us.

他们不是什么无所不知、完美无缺的神。

They're not some all knowing being that meets every single highest standard.

就是突然意识到，他们也有自己的性格，有喜欢和讨厌的东西，也有长处和短处。

It's like, Oh, they have personalities too, and they have likes and dislikes, and they have strengths and weaknesses.

然后一旦你开始意识到他们也是普通人，你就会想，哎呀，我怎么从来没跟他们好好聊过天呢？

And then once you start to realize that they're people, then you're like, oh, why haven't I ever had, like, a real conversation with them?

我觉得这跟代沟有很大关系，而且这在每对父母和孩子之间都很常见，说实话。

I think it's partially the generation thing is huge, and that's gonna be kind of every parent child relationship, honestly.

不过我觉得对我们来说，还多了一层文化差异，对吧？

But I think for us, there's that added layer of cultural gap, right?

就拿亲子关系来说吧。

Even with how the parent child relationship is.

几年前，我和父母有过一次非常深入的谈心，当时我情绪有点崩溃，我说你们从来没告诉过我你们爱我。他们就说，其实我爸妈也从来没跟我说过他们爱我。

So I had a whole heart to heart breakdown situation with my parents a few years ago, where I was like, you never told me you loved me when I was like, they're like, it's not like my parents ever told me they loved me, you know.

我觉得随着年纪增长，我们内心会有种觉醒，开始意识到自己成长过程中缺少了什么，以及在和父母的这段关系里，我们依然渴望得到什么。

I think there's this awakening within ourselves as we get older, where we're realizing all the things we needed growing up and what we still want with those relationships with our parents.

不幸的是，我觉得很多时候得靠我们自己来摸索如何建立这种关系，因为他们自己往往也不知道该怎么做，毕竟他们当年也没有和他们的父母建立起这样的关系。

And unfortunately, I think a lot of the onus is on us to how to build that path, because they don't necessarily always know how to go about that themselves, because they didn't have that relationship with their parents.

或者在他们成长的那个年代，家庭关系本来就不这么相处。

Or it wasn't like culturally how family dynamics work when they were growing up.

所以我最近也在努力改变，想着我应该多问问他们自己的事。

So it's been something I've been trying to work on, too, is I'm just like, yeah, I should ask them more questions about themselves.

他们总是特别乐意回答。

And they're always really happy to answer it.

从来不会说，‘你干嘛关心这个？’

They're never like, Oh, why do you care?

也不会说，‘谁在乎啊？’

Or like, who cares?

他们就是很自然地回应：‘是啊。’

They're just like, oh, yeah.

我就在想，我们怎么从来不像这样聊天呢？

And I'm like, why don't we ever talk like this?

对。

Yeah.

最近我突然意识到，TikTok上有个梗，就是你跟妈妈说你喜欢某样东西一次，她接下来二十年都会给你买相关周边。

I had a moment recently where I realized there's, like, a meme on TikTok where you tell your mom you like this one thing once and then she buys you merch of that thing for the next twenty years.

我发现自己也对爸妈这么干，有次跟老爸聊天，我说：‘爸，你不是超爱草莓吗？’

I realized I do that with my parents because I was like talking to my dad and I like, oh yeah dad like you love strawberries.

这明明就是你的标志喜好啊。

It's like totally your thing.

他反问我：‘有吗？’

He's like, do?

我说：‘你记不记得我十岁的时候，你说草莓和白巧克力是你最爱的两种食物？’

And I was like, when I was like 10 that you love strawberries and white chocolate.

我还以为那是你最钟爱的两样东西呢。

Thought that was really like your top two favorite foods.

他听了说

He was like

天啊

oh my god

哦，我想我是喜欢草莓的。

oh I guess I like strawberries.

我当时就想，天啊，这是怎么回事？

I was like oh no what happened?

到底发生了什么变化？

Like what changed?

你怎么突然变成一个兴趣不断变化的人了？

Why are you like a fully dynamic person with changing interests?

不过我得说，我现在结婚了，我丈夫每次来和我父母聊天时，带来的是完全不同的视角和关系，对吧？

But I will say one thing that I've been finding very rewarding is now that I'm married to my husband, when he comes over and like has conversations with my parents, he's coming with like a completely new perspective and like a different relationship, right?

他会问我爸，比如，你在韩国服兵役那段时间怎么样？

So he'll ask questions to my dad about like, oh, how's your time in military, like mandatory military service in Korea?

还有那时候的情况是怎样的？

And how was this?

或者，你平时喜欢玩什么运动？

Or like, what kind of sports do you like playing?

我当时就惊了。

I was like, woah.

我最近才知道，我爸爸喜欢打篮球。

And I learned recently that my dad likes to play basketball.

他还懂好多术语，比如三分球、上篮、后仰跳投。

And he like knows all the terms like three pointer, like layup, like fade away.

我心想，你到底是谁？

I was like, who are you?

你爸这下可真是个真男人了。

Your dad's like finally a fellow man.

我爸爸甚至提到了德鲁·亨利，就是凯里·欧文的那个教练。

My dad even mentioned the uncle Drew thing for, like, Kyrie Irving.

天哪。

Oh my god.

他都说：‘厉害了。’

He's like, damn.

我爸可懂篮球了。

My dad knows ball.

等等。

Wait.

对。

Yeah.

他其实对这些事儿特别了解，更新得可快了。

He's actually, like, extremely up to date on it.

我现在也在想我爸妈的兴趣爱好。

I'm thinking about my parents' interests now too.

我主要注意到的是，比如我们一家人吃饭时一起看东西，或者有时候同车出行，我爸妈就会放他们那个中文播客，聊些乱七八糟的。

And I guess what I mainly get, or what I mainly see, is maybe if we are watching something at the dinner table together, or maybe sometimes even if we're driving in the same car and my parents play their little Chinese podcast about whatever.

不过算了。

But okay.

我说实话吧。

I'm gonna be honest.

有时候这些播客内容实在太深了，完全超出了我的理解范围。

Sometimes these, like, podcast things are extremely just, like, out of my league.

我就是觉得，是啊。

I'm like, yeah.

我只听到中文在响，但根本没听进去他们在讲什么。

I just hear Chinese happening, but, like, I'm not really absorbing what they're saying.

所以我知道，有一阵子我父母特别迷中国脱口秀。

So I know for a bit my parents were actually into, like, stand up comedy Chinese stand up comedy.

天哪。

Woah.

我当时就想，哇。

And I was like, wow.

现在还有这种东西？

They have that now?

我觉得这应该是中国最近才兴起的趋势。

That's, like, a more recent development, I think, within China itself.

是的。

Yeah.

不然的话，日常琐事或者小时候的兴趣，我其实根本不了解。

Like, otherwise, just like random day to day or maybe even like childhood interests, I wouldn't really know.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得可能我说得有点深了。

I think there's also even I'm like, maybe this is too deep.

但当我跟他们玩‘父母也是普通人’这个游戏时，我了解到很多让人难过的往事。

But when I was playing that parents are human game with them, I learned a lot of stuff that was like kind of traumatic.

我不记得当时问的是什么问题了。

Like, I don't remember what the question was.

好像是关于兄弟姐妹之间的关系之类的。

I think it was something about sibling dynamics or something.

我才知道，我父母各自小时候都经历过兄弟姐妹去世的创伤。

And I learned that some like trauma that both my parents respectively had around siblings like passing away when they were younger.

我当时就想，我根本不知道你还有个兄弟姐妹。

And I was like, I didn't even know you had this sibling.

他们说，是啊，那有什么好提的呢？

They're like, Yeah, why would we talk about it?

我回想起文化因素，很多难以启齿的事，他们往往选择不说，就觉得这种事不该提。

I think back to the cultural aspect, So much of the harder stuff to talk about a lot of times they just don't share because they're like, we, we don't talk about that stuff.

这本来就是文化的一部分。

That's just how the culture is.

但这很重要。

But that's important.

这显然很关键，很可能影响了你对家庭关系的看法，比如该花多少时间在一起之类的。

That seems like it's pretty important and probably like shaped how you think about, you know, your relationship with your family and how much time we should be spending together and all that.

所以当我们试图把西方的那些成长疗法理念，和他们那种典型的东方观念——凡事自己扛、不外扬——连接起来时，真的很有意思。

And so it's very interesting when we try to bridge with our Western and a lot of like, I don't know, growth therapy stuff that we work on, like to their very Eastern and kind of like keep it to yourself way of thinking a lot of times.

我觉得很多时候，你不去问就永远无从知晓，而主动去问的责任，其实是在我们自己身上。

So I do think there's just so much where it's like, you never know until you ask and onus it's on us to ask, I think.

我觉得

And I think

在某种程度上，我觉得父母其实也明白这一点，能感受到这种代沟，也理解文化上的差异。

to an extent, I mean, I think fully our parents also realize this and also feel the gap and also understand the cultural divide is what I'm thinking.

我跟我妈聊过，说最近我开始做心理咨询了，真的改变人生，对我帮助特别大，等等。

I had a conversation with my mom where I was like, you know, I've been going to therapy recently, it's life changing, it's really helped me blah blah.

她一听就说：天啊，太好了，这太值得了，真为你高兴，拼命鼓励我继续做下去。

And she was like, oh my god, good for you, that sounds great, like so worth the investment, like blah blah blah, like really hyping me up to go.

然后我就说，要不你和达什也试试？真的挺有帮助的。

And then I was like, yeah, like maybe you and Dash should try sometime, like it's really cool.

她直接回我：不用了，我们挺好。

And she was like, no, we're good.

我们不想把家里的事拿出来说。

We don't wanna air out our like shit.

我只好说：哦，明白了。

And I was like, oh, okay.

你刚说这对我的帮助特别大，这挺好。

You just said it was really good for me, but that's cool.

对，你父母至少比我家的更接受西方观念。

Yeah, your parents are already at least more Western than my parents.

我妈妈听说我去见心理医生，就说：‘你干嘛要去找心理医生？’

My mom was like, Oh, why are you going to see a therapist?

你是不是脑子出问题了？

Are you crazy or something?

哦，这样啊。

Oh, cool.

明白了。

Cool.

聊得真好。

Good talk.

我觉得我以前跟妈妈解释过一两次心理治疗是怎么回事。

I think I've actually explained therapy to my mom once or twice before.

她就回了句，挺好。

And she was just like, cool.

后来我慢慢跟她说了一通，详细解释了一下。

But then I, like, kinda went into it and, like, explained.

我说，没错。

Was like, yeah.

你知道吗，如果我有什么困扰，想聊聊，或者需要人帮忙理清思路、走出情绪，甚至在朋友、父母、恋爱关系上遇到问题，这都是个挺有用的资源，等等。

You know, if I feel like there's issues that I need to, like, talk about or ask someone for help with, like, how to think about this, how to get over it, or even in, like, relationships with, like, friends, parents, romantic relationships, you know, it's a resource, blah blah blah.

我妈妈就说，嗯，有道理。

My mom was like, yeah.

我觉得听起来也不算差。

I guess it sounds not bad.

然后这场对话就差不多结束了。

And then that's like the conversation

就这么戛然而止了。

just ends there, kind of.

我心想，哦，不错啊。

I'm like, oh, cool.

至少她愿意听。

At least she listened.

我觉得我爸妈现在懂了，但我后来意识到一件事——不知道你爸妈是不是也这样，我爸妈以前老把我和我弟弟当他们的心理咨询师。

I think my parents get it now, but I do think something I realized was, I don't know if your parents do the same thing, but my parents used, like, me and my brother as their therapists.

所以我曾经试着跟他们这么说：你们俩吵架的时候，不是老把火撒在我和我弟弟身上，指望我们听你们倾诉、给建议吗？

So I think I tried to explain it to them that way once where I was like, you know how you just, like, shit on dad when you guys are fighting to like me or my brother and you like expect us to listen and like give you advice and stuff.

差不多就是那样，只不过对方是个不掺和你们家事的外人。

It's kinda like that, but with a stranger who's not invested in like the drama.

天哪。

My god.

太真实了。

Relatable.

这太搞笑了。

That's so funny.

你父母当时是说，哦，

Did your parents were they like, oh,

听起来好像挺有道理的。

you know, that sounds kinda good.

不是的。

No.

他们就说，嗯，这么说倒也说得通。

They were like they were like, oh, I mean, I guess that makes sense.

但他们还是特别传统，觉得你怎么能跟陌生人说自家的那些事呢？

But they still are so eastern in that mindset where they're like, oh, why would you air your baggage to a stranger?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

这事儿本来就该家里人自己处理。

Like, that's for your family to deal with.

我觉得这样并不健康。

I'm like, that's not healthy.

没错。

No.

他们其实是你的朋友。

They're actually your friend.

你只是给他们钱而已。

You just give them money.

他们说，但你又不用花钱。

They're like, but you're free.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

回到你之前说的，我感觉我爸妈就是想赶紧翻篇。

To tie it back to, like, what you were saying earlier, the vibe I get is, like, my parents just wanna move on.

他们不想停下来，好好分析一下刚发生的事。

They don't wanna, like, hang back and do a breakdown of what just happened.

就是觉得，唉，这确实挺糟的。

It's kind of like, okay, well, that sucks.

赶紧往前看，去处理下一件事吧。

Like, let's move on and look to the next thing.

陷在这事儿里头没什么意义。

There's no point in, like, getting stuck in this.

一方面，这其实挺有道理的。

On one hand, that makes a lot of sense.

但另一方面，我觉得回头看看，多少能学到点东西，或者获得一些领悟。

But then on the other hand, it's like, I'm sure there's some lessons you could learn or maybe, like, insight you could gain from looking back on this.

当然不是死揪着不放，但至少可以静下心来，好好理一理。

May maybe not, of course, like, getting really stuck on it, but, like, you know, just kinda breaking it down and being like, okay.

下次如果再发生这样的事，我已经做好准备了。

Next time if this were to happen again, I'm prepared.

我觉得这事儿确实有好有坏。

So I think it's like definitely pros and cons.

如果完全偏向某一种方式，其实也没多大帮助。

If you go all in on one way, it's not gonna be that helpful.

但如果完全走另一个极端，大概也不太明智。

And if you go all in on the other way, that's also probably not gonna be the most helpful either.

是的。

Yeah.

我特别期待将来有自己的孩子，不知道你们有没有关注过亚历克斯·厄尔？她是新一代的网红，在TikTok上特别火，和父母关系特别亲密。

I feel like this is why I'm so excited to have kids of my own because I don't know if either of you guys follow Alex Earle but she's like the new generations, it girl, like Tiktok famous and she is very close to her parents.

她们一起出去玩、去夜店，这种亲子关系我不一定想复制，但我想说的是，如果你们来自同样的文化背景，代沟没那么大，语言障碍也很小，甚至没有，这样的关系其实是可以实现的。

They go partying, they go like And clubbing that's not necessarily the relationship that I want with my kids, but that's something where I'm like, damn, if you're like from the same culture, age gap isn't that big, don't have a language barrier even if it's a small one, that's the kind of relationship that you can have.

我希望我和孩子之间能像她那样，孩子能和我的朋友打成一片，能轻松开玩笑，也能坦诚地和我们聊青春期、成长这些事，而不是把话憋在心里，觉得‘算了，说了他们也不懂，他们没在这儿长大’之类的。

And I want to have relationship with my kids where they're close to my friends, you know, and they can like joke around and like have really open and honest conversations with us about being a teenager or like growing up instead of a lot of it going unsaid where you're just like, I don't even wanna like bother explaining this, they won't get it, they didn't grow up here or whatever.

我觉得彼此之间有更多共同的经历，我真的很感激和父母的关系，但我也觉得，还有一种不同的相处方式，我也想试试看。

I think there's just a lot more shared experience that can happen and I am beyond grateful for the relationship that I have with my parents, but I just feel like there's a different path out there too that I also want to experience.

没错。

For sure.

我老公跟他父母可没这么亲近，不可能一起去夜店。

I don't think my husband has the same relationship where he'll go clubbing with his parents.

但我第一次看到他们吃晚饭时聊天，真的惊到了，你们关系也太好了吧。

But when I first saw them talk over dinner, I was like, wow, you guys are really close.

居然直接叫对方的名字。

Like, calls them by their first names.

我当时还觉得，这也太没大没小了吧。

I was like, like, the disrespect.

我心想，这到底是怎么回事？

I was like, what is this?

但后来想想，其实挺温馨的。

But I was very, like, endearing.

我注意到他和他弟弟总是拿妈妈开玩笑，不过都是轻松搞笑的那种。

And I noticed he and his brother always make fun of their mom, but in a, you know, lighthearted way.

我当时就觉得，这跟我和我父母之间的相处方式真的太不一样了。

And I was like, this is such a different dynamic, like my parents and us.

我觉得，很大程度上，这取决于你想在家庭里营造什么样的氛围。

So so much of it, I think, is also like the culture you want to build within your family.

就算大家说同样的语言，也不是所有白人美国家庭都关系亲密，光会说英语可不够，年龄相近也不代表什么，每个人都不一样，对吧？

Because even if you speak the same language, it's not like every, for example, like every random white American family is like tight, just because they all speak English, and they might be closer in age, we don't know, everyone's different, right?

我觉得关键还是看你想要打造什么样的关系。

I think it's what you want to build out of it.

不过我同意，如果你真的在同样的环境里长大，有过相似的童年经历，确实更容易找到共鸣。

But I do agree there's so much if you really did grow up in the same environment or had the same shared experiences as like kids, there's more that you can relate on.

但说到底，家庭文化的塑造，还是取决于你自己怎么去经营。

But it's really, I think, up to you on how you build that family culture.

说到我们和父母的关系，我觉得我正在试着慢慢改变我们家的相处模式。

And going back to us with our parents, I think I'm trying to like change our family culture a little bit.

我觉得咱们可以更亲近一点，多分享一些以前没怎么说过的话。

I'm like, let's like be a little closer and like share a little more than we used to.

是的。

Yeah.

仔细想想，确实挺多的。

I think it's a lot when you think about it.

我们不仅要弥合代际之间的差距，还有语言、文化，所有这些我们之前提到的因素。

We're not only bridging the gap between us generation wise, but there's the language and the culture, like all the things that we've mentioned.

你说得太对了，Jisoo。

And so you're so right, Jisoo.

如果我们将来有孩子，除非再搬到一个完全不同的国家、说另一种语言，不然我觉得要跨越的障碍会少很多，到时候就能专心处理那两三个我们想克服的差异，好好建立关系。

If we were to have children, unless we move to, like, a brand new country with a different language again, but I feel like there's a lot less to bridge the gap for, and then you can just focus on the one or two, like, differences that we're trying to, like, reach over to build that relationship with.

所以现在我们和家人之间的关系建设是在困难模式，但希望以后会越来越轻松。

So right now, our relationship building with family is on hard mode, and hopefully that means that in the future, it becomes easier and easier.

同意。

Agreed.

文化这一块，其实是RealYouMandarin课程里特别重要的一部分。

The culture aspect actually is a big part of the RealYouMandarin stuff.

到目前为止，我们聊了很多关于和亚洲那边的成年表亲聊天时，语言上感觉受限的情况。

So we've thus far talked a lot about where we feel a little bit restricted in our language when we try to talk to, for example, like adult cousins back in Asia and whatever.

但很多时候，人们学语言，想的都是自己和母语者之间的差距。

But I think a lot of times also with language, people think about where's the gap between me and a native speaker.

比如学中文，就会想：我和中国的人、台湾的人、韩国的人，到底差在哪？

So if it's Chinese, it'd be like, where's the gap between me and someone in China or me and someone in Taiwan and someone in Korea, right?

但我们从小成长的环境和他们差得太远了，我们的个性、经历里，有很大一部分是受西方影响的。

But we did grow up so different from those people that there's a big part of our personalities, big part of our experiences that are tied to being Western.

所以我可以说，RealYouMandarin现有课程里，有三分之一都在讲文化差异的问题。

So I'd say a third of the existing course in RealYouMandarin is based on talking about the cultural difference stuff.

有些内容不管你在哪儿长大，聊新闻、聊时事都能用上。

Some of it is kind of applicable regardless of where you grew up, if you're just talking about the news or whatever.

但就连谈恋爱，方式都不一样，对吧？

But even like dating is different, right?

西方的恋爱方式要随意得多，也更让人摸不着头脑，跟亚洲那种传统的 wholesome 恋爱风格很不一样。

West is a lot more casual and like confusing, I think, standard Asian wholesome dating styles.

还有一些事情，只有我们这种背景的人才能真正懂。

Also, things that are only things we would understand.

就连我跟我的台湾中文老师一起开发课程的时候，我也专门设了一个部分，讲少数群体在主流社会里的处境，还有媒体呈现这类话题。

So even when I was building the course with my Taiwan based Mandarin teacher partner, I have the section around like being a minority in a majority society, or like media representation.

她负责翻译这部分内容。

And she did the translation stuff.

但我一看就发现，这根本不是我想表达的意思。

And I would look at it, I'm like, that's not what I meant.

于是我问她：那你到底想表达什么？

And just like, so what did you mean?

我就跟她说，当你在班上是唯一一个长相这样的时候，你得解释这种真实经历是什么，因为他们根本没经历过这些。

I'm like, well, when you are, like, the only one in the class that looks like this or whatever, you know, I had to explain what that actual experience is because they don't have that experience.

他们根本没法理解这种感受，因为这种事只有在这儿长大的人才会懂。

It's like impossible for them to know what that experience is because that's something they'd only know if they grew up here.

所以课程的一大块内容就是，怎么把那种只有你才有的经历用语言表达出来。

So a big part of the course content is around, like, how do you give words to that experience that only you could have?

因为有时候我会挺郁闷的，那些母语者会说，哦，你想提高普通话？

Because I think I get frustrated sometimes when people that are native, like, oh, you wanna improve your Mandarin?

只要多看几部中国剧，你就能流利了。

Just like watch a bunch of Chinese shows, and you'll become fluent.

我就想，也许吧，但那样我听起来就太像老外，太像中国人了。

I'm like, I guess, but then I'm going to sound super Houni, super Chinese.

而且，这依然没法帮我找到合适的词，去描述我今天和同事吵架之类的经历，因为这些语境都跟在这里长大息息相关。

And like, that still doesn't give me the words for when I'm talking about a fight I had today with a coworker or whatever, because it's so contextual to growing up here.

还有文化上的差异，我们可能没怎么细想过，但在西方，我们其实直接得多。

And also culturally, we're much more I don't know if you think about this a lot, but we're a lot more straightforward in the West.

我们说话有时候挺直接的，不像很多亚洲语言那样委婉含蓄。

We're like, kind of blunt sometimes with how we talk, versus in a lot of Asian languages, it's a lot more buffered.

比如，你会找个更委婉的说法，或者绕着弯子来表达。

Like, you find a nicer way to say things, you're gonna, like, talk around something.

我有时候想表达点什么，结果对方一听就愣了：‘你真打算这么说吗？’

I've also found where I'm trying to say something and they're like, woah, did you mean to say it like that?

因为听起来太生硬了。

Because it sounded really harsh.

可我觉得自己说得很自然啊，毕竟在英语里这么讲根本不算重。

I'm like, oh, it didn't sound harsh in my head because in English, it wouldn't have been that way.

很多人没意识到，文化对语言表达的影响其实特别深，怎么说话完全跟背景有关。

So I think something a lot of people don't think about is like how much culture plays into language and how you would actually express something.

所以我们做RealYouMandarin，就是想解决这个问题。

So we try to tackle a big part of that with RealYouMandarin.

这说得太对了。

That makes a lot of sense.

你说到点上了，文化确实深刻影响着我们的表达方式。

And you're so right about the cultural impact of how we speak as well.

尤其是你说的，西方人说话往往更直接这一点。

Because especially when you're saying, like, how in Western culture, we're a little more blunt.

我猜很多人都是这样，学第二语言的时候，总想着把英语句子直接翻成目标语言，然后说出来，尤其是复杂的句子。

And I'm sure a lot of people are similar to this where if you have a second language, you're usually trying to translate your English sentence into that other language and then you say it out, especially more like complex sentences.

结果一说出口，听的人反而觉得，这话在他们语言里根本说不通。

And so then it maybe when you say it, the person who is listening is like, that low key makes no sense in the context of this language.

你到底想表达什么？

Like, what are you saying?

不是的，

And you're like, no.

我们英语里就是这么说的。

That's just how we say it in English.

他们可能会说，你用的这个俚语或者短语根本不存在，或者就是你把几个词硬凑在一起了。

And they're like, that's maybe this one idiom or, like, this one phrase you tried to say, it, like, doesn't exist or that that's just, like, words stitched together that you just said.

我觉得这真的太对了。

So I feel like that's so true.

不过确实也有一些表达是相似的，比如我之前跟我妈聊过，怎么表达某样东西特别火。

Well, there's definitely some that are similar because I think I was talking to my mom about how to say something's really popular.

用中文该怎么说呢？

How do you say that in Chinese?

她说，其实现在更口语的说法就是直接说某物‘火’，字面意思就是火。

And she was like, oh, well, one of the, like, more slang ways to say this is just to say something is like fire, literally.

我当时就说，天啊，我们英语里也是这么说的。

And I was like, oh my god, that's how we say it in English.

她回我说，这太奇怪了。

And she was like, that's crazy.

但也有很多表达是完全不一样的，比如我们在英语里更口语或俚语的说法是这样讲的。

But there's definitely also ones that are, like, completely different where I was like, oh, we kind of say it this way in, like, more colloquial or, like, slang way in English.

她说，这种说法在中文里根本不能这么说。

And she was like, yeah, you can't say that in Chinese.

我觉得，了解别人在文化背景和日常用语里是怎么表达的，真的很有帮助。

So I feel like that's definitely helpful to have more insight in the cultural way and like colloquial way that people say stuff.

另外突然想到一点，我发现如果我认真想想自己是怎么描述事物的，总会不自觉地用到一些在美国文化里很常见的说法。

The other thing that randomly came to mind is I find that I, if I really sit down and think about the way that I perceive or like describe something, I feel like I call upon things that are very relevant in like US culture.

有时候我会看到一些东西，觉得这有姐妹会的感觉，或者就是那种科学夏令营的氛围，都是我们再熟悉不过的东西了。

So like sometimes I'll see something be like, oh this is like sorority vibes or like, this is just like science camp or you know things that we're so used to.

有时候我注意到我爸妈也是这样，不过他们用的是他们从小在韩国的经历来打比方。

And sometimes I notice my parents do the same thing but for their Korean lived experience.

他们会说，这看着像‘寿宗花’之类的。

They'll say, this looks like a Sujon Hwae or whatever.

我记得以前跟爸妈聊的时候，坐下来努力解释什么是姐妹会。

And I just remember having these conversations with my parents where I was like sitting down trying to explain what a sorority was.

我说，有点像一个社团，只不过全是女生。

I was like, oh, it's kind of like this club, but it's all girls.

你要交钱，还要参加各种活动。

I'm like, you pay and you know, you do these things.

他们听完就一脸茫然：什么？

And they're just like what?

所以我觉得，就连这些日常生活中的小细节，虽然不是故意制造隔阂，但总会让人意识到：哦，我们成长的环境真不一样。我很想知道，如果能多一些共同的表达方式，甚至一套能描述这些差异的词汇和方法，会不会让这类对话更容易理解。

So I don't know like a lot of even these small things in our daily interactions can feel like not divisive but just like another reminder of like oh we like grew up differently so I wonder if having more of that like shared vocabulary or even like the methodology and like the words to describe these differences would aid a lot in these conversations as well.

等等，你提到兄弟会/姐妹会这事太逗了，因为我大学时也有过类似的经历，当时我正试图跟我爸妈解释。

Wait, that's so funny that you brought up the sorority thing because I had that experience in college where I was trying to explain to my parents.

对，是的。

I was like, oh, yeah.

我说我加入了个社团。

I joined this, like, club.

然后，比较巧的是，我家里有个朋友的孩子读的是兄弟会。

And then, the good thing was that one of my family friends did, like, a fraternity.

我当时就想，对。

So I was like, yeah.

就跟那个家里朋友家的一样，只不过他们家是一儿一女，而且我还有个姐姐。

It's just like what this family friend did except ours is, like, both boys and girls, and I have, like, a big.

她就说，哦，这样啊。

And she was like, oh, okay.

所以，就像有个姐姐那样的感觉。

So, like, you have, like, a big sister kind of thing.

我当时就说，对啊。

And I was like, yeah.

差不多就是那样。

Pretty much.

我们

And we

就说到这儿了。

just left it at that.

差不多就是这个意思。

That's pretty close.

我心想，太好了，总算有人帮我解释清楚了，我只需要跟着附和一下就行。

I was like, thank god someone already explained it for me and I just have to tag on to it.

这场对话真是让我受益匪浅。

Well, this has been such an insightful conversation.

我从来没意识到，自己的韩语词汇里居然有这么多空白和缺失。

I don't think I've ever realized how many gaps and like voids there are in my Korean vocabulary.

这 definitely 让我意识到得坐下来好好翻翻字典了。

So this is definitely a signal for me to sit down and read some words in the dictionary.

不过真的很感谢你，Angela，今天能来参加我们的对话。

But thank you, Angela, so much for joining us today.

我们的听众如果想了解更多关于 RealYouMandarin 或你的播客，该去哪里找你呢？

Where can our listeners find you if they wanna hear more about RealYouMandarin or your podcast?

首先，谢谢你们两位邀请我参加。

Well, first, thanks to both of you for having me on.

今天聊得特别开心，真的非常感谢。

Had a lot of fun, so thank you.

如果想了解更多关于 RealYouMandarin 的内容，可以去 realyoumandarin.com。

If you want to learn more about RealYouMandarin, you can find us at realyoumandarin.com.

我刚把网站重新做了一遍。

I actually just redid the website.

我对这个新网站特别满意。

I'm really proud of it.

去瞧一瞧吧。

Go check that out.

那里还能了解更多关于这门课程的信息。

Can find more about the course there as well.

如果你是母语为中文、想提升汉语水平的人，可以使用折扣码 eatyourcrust10（全小写），享受九折优惠。

And if you are a Mandarin speaker who wants to improve your level, you can use a discount code, eatyourcrust10, all lowercase, for 10% off.

我们也在社交媒体上，Instagram、TikTok 和 YouTube 都是 RealYouMandarin。

And you can find us on the socials as well, Instagram, Tiktok, and YouTube, all at RealYouMandarin.

不错。

Nice.

我们也会把这些信息都放在节目笔记里。

And we will include all of those details in the show notes as well.

对各位听众来说，如果你在使用第二语言与人交流的过程中有什么心得，欢迎和我们分享。

And for our listeners, if you have any thoughts on your journey of communicating with others with your second language, feel free to share with us.

我们的 Instagram 是 eatyourcrustpod，邮箱也是公开的，地址是 eatyourcrustpodgmail dot com。

We have Instagram at eatyourcrustpod, and we also have email, eatyourcrustpodgmail dot com.

如果你想收听我们的其他节目，别忘了在Spotify、Apple Podcasts或者你常用的播客平台关注我们。

And if you'd like to catch our other episodes, then don't forget to follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

我们每两周的星期三早上更新新一期节目。

We upload new episodes every other Wednesday morning.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

别忘了吃掉你的外壳。

Don't forget to eatyourcrust.