如何茁壮成长（与丹尼尔·科伊尔）

谈谈时间旅行者之家和唤醒提示这个概念，我觉得这非常有趣。

Talk about the time traveler house and the idea of awakening cues, which I think is really interesting.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这是哈佛大学教授艾伦·兰格的故事，就像某些教授才会做的那样，她在七十年代进行了一项大胆的实验。

It's a story of Ellen Langer is a professor at Harvard, and she went as as as certain professors can only do, did this kind of wild experiment in the in the seventies.

她将一座旧修道院改造得内部所有物品都来自1959年。

And she took an old monastery and retrofitted it so that everything in it was from 1959.

就像你知道的，迪恩·马丁的唱片、《波特诺伊的怨诉》的副本，所有家具，甚至电视都被换成了黑白的，然后她邀请了七旬老人来那里住上一周。

As if, you know, the Dean Martin records and a copy of Portnoy's complaint and all the furnishings and the the TV was swapped out for a black and white, And she invited people in their seventies to come and live there for a week.

人们真的来了。

And the people showed up.

当时，其中一位老人还拄着拐杖。

And at the time, you know, one of them had a cane.

他们慢悠悠地走进去，住了下来。

They were kind of shuffling in there, and they spent.

她根本没有给他们任何限制。

And she didn't give them any sort of constraints at all.

只是让他们过来住在这里，看看会发生什么。

It was just come live here and see what happens.

她还设置了另一组，要求他们假装自己生活在1959年。

And she did another group where they she she asked them, pretend like you're living in 1959.

这是他们唯一的指示。

That's your only instruction.

假装。

Pretend.

一周后，她测量了他们来之前和离开时的身体和心理状态。

And and after a week, and they measured all of their physical characteristics coming and going, their psychological characteristics coming and going.

当他们离开时，人们展现出惊人的活力、能量、可能性、幽默感和亲密情谊。

And what they saw as they left was this extraordinary bloom of vigor, energy, possibility, humor, camaraderie.

在最后，这个小组中的一两名成员，其中一位是研究生

At the very end, one a couple members of the group, one of the grad students

我们说的是那个拥有1959年家具的小组。

This is the group that had the nineteen fifty nine furnishings we're talking about.

没错。

That's right.

不是另一个小组。

Not the other group.

那个算是对照组。

That was sort of the control group.

是的。

Yeah.

没错。

That's right.

有一个对照组住在那儿但没有任何指示，而另一个小组则被要求：想象你们就生活在那里。

There was a control group that lived there without instructions, but the group that said, look, pretend like you're living there.

他们就是那些展现出活力、能量、联结与幽默感的人。

They those are the ones who had this bloom of vitality, energy, connection, humor.

在活动快结束时，有一位研究生带来了一个橄榄球供大家抛玩，几位年长者也加入了游戏。

And there was a a one of the graduate students brought a football to throw around at the end, and a couple of the of the older people joined in the game.

正如兰格教授所说，没人会把这场游戏误认为是NFL比赛。

And as professor Langer said, nobody would mistake it for the NFL.

但在研究开始时，这种情况是被认为不可能发生的。

But at the start of the study, this would not be considered possible.

这个故事真正揭示的是，意义和联结的能量并不在于信息的增加。

And what that story really kind of captures is the fact that meaning and connective energy are not about they're not an increase of information.

而在于一种接收的体验。

They're an experience of reception.

这是一种静止的体验，在这种状态下，你激活了你的关系性注意力。

They're an experience of stillness where you're activating your relational attention.

在我为这本书走访的所有地方，我都看到了所谓的‘觉醒提示’。

And the term awakening cues is what I saw in all of the places that I visited for the book.

我在那些有意创造这些空间的地方看到了，人们可以放下防备，激发疑问，点燃神秘感，并一起深入探索。

I what I saw in places where they are intentionally creating these spaces, where people can let drop their armor, where they spark a question, where they spark a mystery, and where people lean into it together.

就像那个时间旅行者的房子里一样。

Much like in that in that time traveler house.

我们在这里做什么？

What are we doing here?

所有这些东西都在这里。

All this stuff is here.

让我们放下那些旧习惯吧。

Let's let's let go of our our old habits.

让我们试试这个。

Let's let's try this.

那可能是一扇巨大的黄色门，你可能会这么说。

And it's a giant yellow door, you might say.

当他们跨过这扇门时，一切都改变了。

And when they step through it, it changes them.

因此，我认为这种‘唤醒提示’的概念首先触及了注意力健康的问题。

And so I I think this concept of awakening cue speaks to I think it speaks to attentional health, first of all.

如果你一生都像机器一样，不断专注、专注、生产、生产，却从未在身边拥有这些提示和空间，天啊，生活会过得既快速又肤浅。

This idea that if you go through life like a machine, focus, focus, focus, produce, produce, and never have these sort of cues and spaces around you, man, life goes by pretty quickly and pretty thinly.

但当你愿意停下来片刻，激活那种关系性的注意力，真正去观察正在发生的一切，并融入其中时，生活才会真正发生转变。

But when you take the time to stop for a second and and and fire up that that relational attention and really look at what's going on you and live your way into it, that's when life gets transformed.

所以，我对这个房子的故事有些困惑，这确实是一个美丽的故事。

So I'm I'm somewhat puzzled by that, the house story, and I it's a beautiful story.

它甚至可能是真实的。

It might even be true.

但我很好奇，她认为那里究竟发生了什么。

But I'm I'm curious what she thought happened there.

为什么那些装饰品和小摆设，都是来自这些人年轻时的物品？

Why why did the decor and the knickknacks that were laying around that were youth from these people's youth.

是的。

Yeah.

我明白这一点。

So I get that.

但我对为什么这会激发这种活力感到怀疑。

But but I'm I'm skeptical as to why that would trigger this vitality.

她的理论是什么？

What was what was her theory?

你是怎么理解的？

How do you understand it?

是的。

Yeah.

我理解的是，这些东西充满了回忆。

The way I understand it is that these things are kind of redolent with memory.

有两点。

Well, two things.

它们脱离了旧有的习惯。

They're out of their old old habits.

对吧？

Right?

他们正在搬出公寓。

They're leaving their apartment.

他们正在搬出那个一切都有固定模式的房子。

They're leaving their house where everything's in a groove.

他们所有的习惯都已根深蒂固。

All their raves are in a groove.

他们被抛入一个新环境，需要自我组织，需要自己摸索出来。

They're thrown into this new place where they need to self organize, where they need to figure it out.

所以这是一种不同的、全新的自主性。

So that's a different sort of that's a fresh kind of autonomy.

自主性带来活力。

Autonomy gives energy.

但另一点是，这些东西把他们带回了过去，重新唤醒了那些早已存在、等待被再次触及的记忆。

But the other thing was that these these things brought them back and sort of resurrected these memories that were there ready to be encountered again.

就像我回忆起那次骑自行车的经历，我之前根本没想过这件事，但它在某种程度上给了我能量。

Like my memory of making that bike ride, which I hadn't thought about, and that energized me in some way.

而且这个想法，我认为你知道，我不确定她后来深入研究了很多健康影响。

And that idea, I think where you know, I don't she she went on to study a lot of the health impacts.

她非常关注身体和健康，并在这方面积累了大量研究成果。

She really focused on the body and health and has a quite a body of work on that kind of stuff.

就这个联系而言，我认为它让我意识到，往往意义伴随着关系性的关注，正等待着我们去发现。

For for the purposes of this connection, I think it it made me see how that often meaning with relational attention, meaning is waiting for us.

在那些人的生活中，情况也是如此。

It's it's the same way in those people's lives.

那些记忆一直都在那里，等待着被重新唤醒。

Those memories were there waiting to be sort of resurrected.

所需要的就是那个有意为之的黄色门阶，来创造一个空间，让这些记忆得以被唤醒。

What it took was that intentional yellow doorstep to get create a space where they could be awakened.

是的。

Yeah.

我再次表示，只是有一点怀疑。

I'm, again, just just a little skepticism.

在我的人生中，有很多年份都充斥着一些不愉快的回忆，我有点像迪恩·马丁，但没那么喜欢。

I there are many probably decades of my life where there were some unpleasant memories, And I have I kinda like Dean Martin, but not so much.

如果是弗兰克·辛纳屈的唱片，我会更喜欢。

If it was Frank Sinatra Records, I'd like it more.

我不确定迪恩·马丁会不会唤起什么美好的回忆。

And I'm not sure that the Dean Martin would spark, you know, good memories.

但抛开时间旅行者的部分，创造这种所谓的‘旧时代环境’或‘穿越时空的环境’，这个想法本身非常有力。

But the idea of forgetting the time traveler part of it, the idea of creating this, quote, older environment or time traveled environment, you know, the idea of doing something different is very powerful.

当我五年前搬到以色列时，这并不是一个容易的决定，有人告诉我，这会像一针肾上腺素注入心脏。

And when I moved to Israel, which was wasn't an easy decision, which I did five years ago, somebody told me it would be like a shot of epinephrine into my heart.

离开你成长的国家，前往一个很多人不说你母语的外国，那里的习惯和规范都不同，这种剧变会彻底唤醒你。

It would the radicalness of leaving the country you grew up in, going to a foreign country where many people don't speak your language, where the habits and norms are different, it would just vitalize me.

可能确实如此，我不确定。

It probably has, I don't know.

我并没有研究过这个。

I didn't I haven't studied it.

但这确实是一种改变。

But it is a change.

别管它是旧的还是新的。

Forget whether it's old or new.

改变似乎并不是最糟糕的事。

Change would seem to be not the worst thing.

而且我认为这让我们进入了第二部分——群体流动。

Well, and I think it gets us into that second piece, the group flow.

当你需要自我组织并在某些限制下朝着某个目标前进时，你会激发出大量的活力，而这听起来又有点玄乎。

Like, when you have to self organize and navigate towards something with some constraints, you unlock a lot of vitality, which, again, sounds kind of woo woo.

我们竟然缺乏清晰的科学语言来谈论这些事情，这真有意思。

It's it's interesting how we lack clear scientific language to talk about some of this stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

这感觉就像给心脏注射了一针肾上腺素。

A shot of epinephrine to the heart is what it does feel like.

但当我跟人们谈论他们的蓬勃体验时，他们脑海中经常浮现的模式——虽然这些模式并不真实存在，但他们所描述的底层结构正是你所说的：我和一些人去了某个地方，我们一起摸索出了办法。

But when when I do talk to people about their flourishing experiences, a lot of time, the model that comes up in their head, and it might it doesn't exist concretely as these things, but the underlying structure of what they describe is what you describe, which is I went to this place with with other people, and we kind of figured it out together.

我们不知道接下来会发生什么。

And we didn't know what was gonna happen.

存在很高的不确定性。

There's a high degree of uncertainty.

当时有极大的挑战和困难，但几乎就像一群鸟飞过森林一样。

There was a high degree of challenge and difficulty, but almost like, I don't know, like a flock of birds going through a forest.

就像我们自己组织了起来。

Like, we self organized.

我们找到了解决办法，并因此成长了。

We figured it out, and we grew as a result of that.

这就是他们讲述的故事。

That's the story they tell.

是的

Yeah.

在某些方面，这个故事我认为与我们祖先数万年乃至数百万年来在小群体中成长、应对艰难挑战、共同成长和解决问题的方式有着强烈的共鸣。

And in some ways, that story, I think, has some powerful echoes with the way our, you know, our our ancestors grew up from hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years in small groups, navigating tough stuff, growing and figuring it out together.

但在某些方面，它也呼应了复杂科学中的这个理念。

But in in some ways, it speaks to this idea from complexity science, really.

你知道的？

You know?

我们自启蒙时代以来，一直试图将世界想象成一台机器。

We've we've gone through the last, I don't know, since the enlightenment, basically, trying to imagine the world as a machine.

但这一波复杂动力系统理论正清楚地向我们展示，为什么这些体验——你的体验、那些茁壮成长之人的体验——与约束、梯度以及这些并不太准确的术语密切相关。

But this this new wave of complex dynamical systems theory is showing us, I think, kinda clearly why these experiences, your experience, flourishing people's experience, and it has to do with with constraints, with gradients, with all this language that's not that great.

但总的来说，如果我笨拙地总结一下，它是在论证……

But, basically, it's making the argument in if I can sum it up really clumsily.

生命和我们的体验并不是机器。

It's life and our experiences are not machines.

它们是河流。

They're rivers.

它们是河流。

They're rivers.

要让一条河流从水洼或湖泊变成真正的河流，需要发生几件事。

And for a river to go from being a a puddle or a lake to being a river, a couple things have to happen.

你需要一个坡度。

You need a gradient.

也就是说，你需要朝着某个目标前进。

Like, you need to be moving towards some horizon.

这很好。

That's good.

你需要一个坡度。

You need a gradient.

然后你需要河岸。

And now you need riverbanks.

对吧？

Right?

你需要某种东西来指引：往这儿流，但别往那儿流。

You need something to say, go here, but not here.

比如，你不能随便乱流。

Like, don't don't you can't go anywhere.

这就是坡度。

This is the gradient.

这是河岸。

Here's the riverbank.

第三点你需要的是自由。

And the third thing you need is freedom.

比如，河流不能结冰。

Like, the river can't be frozen.

所有的分子都必须能够自由移动，去它们想去的地方。

All the molecules have to be able to move around and go where they wanna go.

因此，我反复访问的这些地方，我们正在重现这三个要素。

And so these places that I visited over and over again, you know, we're recreating those three elements.

我们希望人们拥有自主权。

Like, we want people to have autonomy.

你可以选择自己想做的事。

You choose what you wanna do.

当你到达耶路撒冷时，没人会告诉你：周一你得去这儿。

When you got to Jerusalem, nobody was saying, here's how it's where you do Monday.

周二你得去那儿。

This is gonna do Tuesday.

这是你吃早餐的地方。

Here's where your breakfast is.

你身在其中，自由地自主探索，这才是活力的来源。

You, like, being there and be self navigating with freedom is what created that vitality.

这里存在一些限制。

There's a constraint.

你不会每周都去一个不同的城市。

You're not going to a different city every every week.

你就待在这个地方。

Like, you're staying here in this place.

那里有一种隐约的边界，一种你逐渐趋向的渐变。

And there's kind of a kind of a horizon, kind of a gradient you're flowing toward.

我一次又一次地看到这种情况。

And I see this over and over again.

对我来说，最生动的例子之一就是一位名叫彼得·斯基尔曼的人做的一个疯狂实验。

Like, one of the most vivid examples for me is this crazy experiment that this guy named Peter Skillman did.

我不知道你们节目之前有没有人提过，就是意大利面塔实验。

I don't know if somebody's talked about it on your show before, but the spaghetti tower experiment.

所以彼得·斯基尔曼，他组织了若干四人小组。

So Peter Skillman, he got groups of four.

问题是，谁能用以下材料搭建出最高的塔？

The question was who can build the tallest tower with the following materials?

比如，20根意大利面、一码透明胶带，和一个标准大小的棉花糖。

Like, 20 pieces of spaghetti, a yard of Scotch tape, and a single standard sized marshmallow.

这个意大利面是煮过的还是生的？

Is this is the spaghetti cooked or uncooked?

生的。

Uncooked.

很好。

Good.

问得好。

Excellent question.

是的。

Yeah.

煮过的根本不行。

The cooked one never works.

完全是不同的游戏。

Different different game.

不同的挑战。

Different challenge.

极其困难。

Extremely difficult.

没错。

That's right.

所以是20根石头还是意大利面。

So so 20 a rock or a spaghetti.

谁能搭出最高的塔？

And, who can build a tallest tower?

开始。

Go.

单个标准大小的棉花糖必须放在顶部。

Single standard sized marshmallow has to go on the top.

这就是规则。

That's the rule.

不能放在底部。

Can't go on the bottom.

必须放在顶部。

Has to go on the top.

所以这是由四人组成的团队，成员包括CEO、律师、MBA学生和幼儿园孩子。

So it is four person teams of CEOs, of lawyers, of MBA students, and of kindergartners.

如果你要打赌谁会赢，我们大多数人可能会押注于某个成人团队。

If you had to bet who's gonna win, most of us would probably bet on one of the adult teams.

事实上，幼儿园孩子们赢了，而且赢得很明显。

In fact, the kindergarteners win, like and it's not close.

问题是，为什么？

Like and the question is why?

这是因为所有成人团队都会做一件事：他们试图组织自己。

Well, because all the adult teams do this thing where they try to organize themselves.

他们试图规划，分配角色，讨论，并做所有这些事情来跟进流程。

They try to plan, and they have roles, and they talk, and they do all this stuff to follow-up the the flow.

幼儿园孩子们会把所有棉花糖都吃掉，然后留下一个，接着就开始以一种完全混乱的方式把东西胡乱拼在一起。

The kindergartners, they eat all the marshmallows, and then they save one, and then they start just jamming stuff together in a completely in a in a chaotic way.

看起来非常杂乱。

It looks extremely messy.

但还有什么更好的办法来解决呢？

But what better way to solve?

这其实是个看似简单却非常棘手的问题，因为棉花糖相对而言很重，而意大利面在横向上完全没有稳定性。

And it's actually a deceptively tricky problem because relatively, the marshmallow is really sort of heavy, and the spaghetti has no stability sideways.

所以这真的挺难的。

So it's really sort of tricky.

但要解决一个复杂棘手的问题，还有什么比直接尝试、然后它往这边歪了就加点东西、往那边歪了再调整更好的办法呢？

But what better way to solve a tricky complex problem than to, like, try stuff and then it tilts this way, put something in there, tilts this way.

他们不可能手拉手地传递。

You can't they're arm over arm.

他们是一个完美的流动型群体，边出现边解决问题。

They're a perfect inflow group brain solving problems as they emerge.

团队流动就像一种共同的行动力在运转。

Like, group flow is like shared agency in motion.

优秀团队就是这样做的，我们在自然界中看到鱼群和鸟群时也是如此。

And and that's what great teams do, and that's what we see in the natural world with schools of fish and flocks of birds.

当我们身处优秀的团队中时，我们自己也能感受到这种状态。

And that's what we feel in our own lives when we're on great teams.

它就像打街头篮球一样。

It feels like pickup basketball.

我不会去问老板我该不该修塔的这一部分。

It feels like, well, I'm not gonna ask my boss if I should fix this piece of the tower.

我看到了问题。

I see the problem.

我会去修它，然后你去修那个，你去修那个。

I'm gonna fix it, and then you fix that and you fix that.

谁提出了这个好主意？

And who had the great idea?

好的团队总是会给出同样的答案：当你问他们伟大的想法或重大突破是从哪里来的时。

Well, great teams, you always get that same answer where it's like, you ask them where the great idea came from or where the great breakthrough.

他们会说，我们其实也不知道。

They're like, we don't really know.

它就是自然而然地从我们正在做的事情中涌现出来的。

It just kind of bubbled up bubbled up from what we were doing.

我一次又一次在这些群体中看到这种状态，无论是科学家还是商人。

And and that is that's the state that I saw over and over in these groups, whether it was scientists or business people.

他们很擅长进入心流状态。

Like, they were good at getting in the flow.

所以我认为这些线索，意味着我们有多种方式可以活得更生动、更充实。

So I think of these kind of cues I mean, there's different kind of ways that we can live more vividly and more and flourish.

但当我读你的书时，我更关注如何触及更深层的注意力形式，那些更具关系性的类型。

But for me, when I read your book, I was more focused on this question of tapping into the deeper forms of attention, the more relational kinds.

比如冥想、祈祷、诗歌和心理治疗。

And, you know, there's meditation, there's prayer, there's poetry, there's psychotherapy.

我认为这些是我所知道的方式。

These are ways I think that the ones that these are the ways I know of.

我可能会把小说加入到诗歌这一类中。

I would add fiction maybe to the poetry part.

是的。

Yeah.

也许还有其他一些方式。

And maybe there's some others.

但这些是我们尝试停下来、暂停一下、深呼吸、静下心来，去接触那些我们平时无法自然触及的东西——那种与外界相连的联结感。

But these are the ways we try to stop, take a pause, take a breath, be still, and access something that we don't naturally access, this outside ourselves connectedness thing.

我想用你书中举的一个例子来说明。

And I want to use an example that you give in the book.

你们中有些人可能听过这个例子，我会稍作修改。

And some of you may have heard this, and I'm going to change it a little bit.

中间会有一个十秒的片段。

There's going to be a ten second thing in the middle.

我将使用原始版本，但我会把它延长到二十秒，这可是很长一段时间。

I'm I'm going to the original version, but I'm going to make it 20, which is an eternity.

你会知道的，我们会弄清楚的。

You'll you'll we'll find out.

但接下来是这个练习。

But here's the exercise.

所以，如果你在家听着并且没有开车的话，我希望你闭上眼睛，思考以下内容，试着和我一起参与。

So I want you if you're listening at home and you're not driving, I want you to close your eyes and consider the following, see if you can join me.

有太多人帮助我们成为了今天的自己。

So many people have helped us become who we are.

他们中有些近在身边，有些远在天涯，甚至有些已经去了天堂。

Some of them are near, some are far away, some are even in heaven.

我们每个人都有特别的人，他们用爱塑造了我们。

All of us have special ones who have loved us into being.

你能否和我一起花二十秒，想想那些帮助你成为今天这样的人，那些关心你、希望你人生最好的人？

Would you just take along with me twenty seconds to think of the people who have helped you become who you are, those who have cared about you and wanted what was best for you in life?

所以让我们一起花二十秒，共同进行这个练习，想想那些爱我们、帮助我们成为今天自己的人。

So let's all take twenty seconds and do this exercise together of thinking about people who have loved us into being and helped us become who we are.

开始吧。

Go.

好的。

Okay.

这大约已经二十秒了。

So that's about twenty seconds.

无论你想到的是谁，他们一定非常欣慰，知道你此刻想起了他们，并意识到他们对你生命所产生的影响。

And whoever you've been thinking about how pleased they must be to know that you thought of them right now and to know the difference you feel they've made.

这个练习到此结束。

And that's the end of the exercise.

当我参加静修冥想时，我记得有一次有六十分钟或九十分钟的感恩练习，和这个很相似。

When I was on silent meditation retreat, we had a I remember there's sixty minutes or ninety minutes of it's called a gratitude practice similar to this.

指导语是：想想那些爱过你、对你友善、善待你的人。

The instruction was think about people who have loved you and who've been kind to you and good to you.

我记得第一次做这个练习时心想：天啊，我怎么可能持续九十分钟？

And I remember thinking at first time I did this, well, I can't do this for ninety minutes.

这太荒谬了。

This is ridiculous.

两分钟、五分钟我就做完了，然后我就无事可做，只能干坐着玩手指。

In in two minutes, five minutes, I'll be done, and I'll have no one else I'll I'll just have to sit around twiddle my thumbs.

但事实并非如此，我鼓励在家收听的每个人，试着把这个练习延长一段时间。

That was not the case, and I encourage anyone at home listening to do this exercise over a longer period.

你知道吗，我想起了那些自从我童年时期以来就再没想过的人。

It's you know, I thought of people I hadn't thought about since they had been in my life when I was a child.

我以极大的深度回忆了我的父母，远超我原本以为自己能想起来的程度。

I thought about my parents in great depth, much greater depth than I thought I could conjure up.

我想到了我的兄弟姐妹、朋友、亲人、妻子和老师们。

I thought of my siblings, my friends, my loved ones, my wife, my teachers.

但这不仅仅是说：哦，这是我的朋友，那是我的妻子，还有我的老师们。

But it's not just, oh, there's my friends, and there's my wife, there's my teachers.

取每一个人，从最早、你童年最年幼的时候开始回溯，想想谁曾对你温柔以待，谁曾用爱和善意对待你。

Take each one and go back, start as early as you can, when you're as young as you can in your childhood, and think about who was kind to you and who treated you with love and kindness.

这是一次令人震撼的体验。

And it's an overwhelming experience.

我发现这特别感人，过程中很大一部分时间我都像婴儿一样哭了。

I I found it extraordinary and probably cried like a baby during a good chunk of it.

当我从那次静修回来后，我给多年未联系的人打了电话，只是对他们说声谢谢，他们都哭了。

And when I came back from that retreat, I called people who I had not talked to for years and just told them thank you, and they cried.

所以我推荐这种练习。

So I recommend this practice.

但我刚才做的这个，是来自你的书，源自《罗杰斯先生的邻居》的弗雷德·罗杰斯。

But the one I just did, which I took from your book, it's from Fred Rogers of Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.

你提供了链接，指向他1997年艾美奖颁奖典礼上在台上做的这段话。

And you linked to a you gave the link to his 1997 Emmy Award where he did this on stage.

这是一个非常动人的时刻。

And it's a great moment.

这是他的一份台词。

And it's it's a script for him.

他显然已经熟记于心。

He's obviously knows it by heart.

他并没有在读它。

He's not reading it.

他在节目中已经表演过很多次了。

He's done it so many times on the show.

这内容确实陈词滥调、矫情、幼稚又感伤，但对我来说却非常重要

And it's really trite and corny and silly and sentimental, and it's really important in my

的看法。

view.

是的。

Yeah.

我完全同意。

I couldn't agree more.

而且它真的，你知道的，突显了很多事情。

And it really, you know, spotlights a bunch of things.

但其中之一是，我认为现代世界让我们离那些时刻越来越远。

But one of them is that I think the modern world pulls us further from those kind of moments.

比如，我认为世界上大多数群体在历史上都会花大量时间思考他们的祖先，思考那些经常发生在他们身上的时刻。

Like, I think most most groups of people throughout the history of the world will spend a lot of time thinking about their ancestors and thinking about having moments like that where they're routinely in there.

毛利人有一个很美的说法，他们想象自己与每一位祖先手牵着手，从父辈母辈一直追溯到远古。

There's a a beautiful one that the Maori use where they kind of picture themselves holding hands with every ancestor, the chain of their fathers and mothers all the way back.

而此刻在阳光下的是他们。

And they're the ones who are in the sunshine right now.

但其他祖先在阴影中，你们依然手牵着手。

But they're the others are in the shadow, but you're still holding hands.

这只需要五秒钟就能描述清楚。

And it's just like this it takes five seconds to describe.

每个人都懂。

Everybody gets it.

这是一件极其有力的事情。

It's this incredibly powerful thing.

你知道，我们会把这些称为仪式。

And, know, you we would call these things rituals.

对吧？

Right?

我们会把你刚才做的称为仪式。

We would call what you just did.

我们会把弗雷德做的称为仪式。

We call what Fred did a ritual.

过去，我们有时把仪式归为迷信和魔法思维的范畴。

And I think we sometimes have consigned ritual to the realms of superstition in the past and its magical thinking.

但当你从关系性关注的视角来看，从繁盛与活力的视角来看，它完全不是那样。

When you look at it through this lens of relational attention, when you look at through this lens of flourishing and vitality, it's it's anything but.

它赋予了我们生命力。

Like, it animates us.

这些时刻，你真的停下来，放下所谓的实用性。

These these moments of where you actually stop and you give up can you give up, you know, the usefulness.

这并不是一个有用的练习。

This is not a useful exercise.

我们得不到任何可衡量的结果。

We get nothing measurable.

它不会产生任何成果。

No result comes from it.

它是不可预测的。

It's not predictable.

所以你是在这种关系空间中运作。

So you're operating in this relational space.

而这正是它有效的原因。

And that's why it's effective.

我认为，即使扩展到其他文化，比如当你去欧洲时，你有没有注意到这一点？比如在西班牙午休时间，或者早上五点，突然间，街上到处都是人。

And I think even when you extend that to other cultures, like, you know, when you see these when you go to Europe, I don't know if you're struck by this at all, but, like, if you're in if you're in Spain during siesta or it's 05:00, all of a sudden, everybody on is on the street.

每个人都有这样的仪式。

Everybody's got this ritual.

这说不通。

It doesn't make sense.

他们关掉了店铺。

They've closed their shops.

他们本可以赚更多的钱。

They could make way more money.

但他们全都走出去，大家在同一片公共空间里做着同样的事。

But they they they all go out, and everybody does the same thing together in this common space.

这是一种美好的人际交流。

And it's wonderful fellowship.

我认为许多到访这些地方的美国人，都会深深感受到这种活动多么充满活力，以及我们在这方面多么欠缺。

And I think a lot of Americans that visit these kind of places are really struck by how how vitalizing it is and how bad we are at it.

这并不意味着我们非得做得不好。

It doesn't mean we have to be bad.

这并不意味着我们注定就要一直这样下去。

It doesn't mean that, you know, we're we're locked into being this way.

但这些微小的改变——无论是通过像弗雷德那样的仪式，还是通过为人们创造真正的聚集空间——都能产生同样的振奋效果。

But these small changes in in creating these spaces, whether it's through the rituals like Fred uses or whether it's it's like literal spaces for people to gather, has that same vitalizing effect.

我想顺便说一下弗雷德·罗杰斯，因为你的书让我重新思考了他，自从看了汤姆·汉克斯的电影后，我再也没想过他。

So I just wanna say something about Fred Rogers for a second just because your book really prompted me to think about him, and I have not thought about him at all since I saw the Tom Hanks movie.

于是我回去看了你推荐的那场艾美奖演讲。

So I go back and I look at the Emmy speech that you that you suggested.

其中有一些地方很特别。

And what's there's a couple of things that are strange about it.

一个是我觉得是蒂姆·罗宾斯——那个颁给他奖项的演员。

One is I think it's Tim Robbins who gives him the the actor who gives him the award.

蒂姆·罗宾斯在颁奖时提到的唯一一件事，就是弗雷德·罗杰斯给了孩子们一种强烈的自我认同感，让他们觉得自己很特别。

And the only thing Tim Robbins talks about in giving the award is is that Fred Rogers gave kids a strong sense of self confidence that they were special.

我想，是的，这确实是节目的一部分。

And I thought, yeah, that was part of the show.

但我们刚才做的这个练习，实际上远不止如此。

But this exercise we just did is actually it's much more than that.

它不是以自我为中心的。

It's about it's not self centered.

它也不是关于自尊的。

It's not about self esteem.

它是关于认识到你依赖着许多许多人，而他们曾对你友善。

It's about recognizing you depend on many, many other people and that they've been kind to you.

感恩也是这个节目非常重要的部分。

And gratitude was another huge part of that show.

我知道《罗杰斯先生的邻居》这个节目，因为我比我的弟弟大十岁。

And I know Fred Rogers' show, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, because I'm ten years older than my little brother.

他现在已经不是那么小了。

Not so little anymore.

但当他还是个小男孩时，他会看《芝麻街》和罗杰斯先生的节目。

But when he was a little boy, he would watch Sesame Street and Mr.

罗杰斯。

Rogers.

我有时会和他一起看，还挺喜欢《芝麻街》的。

And I kind of and I'd watch it with him sometimes, and I kind of enjoy Sesame Street.

但我讨厌罗杰斯先生，

And I hate Mr.

因为罗杰斯先生

Rogers because Mr.

罗杰斯很无聊，而我是个青少年。

Rogers was boring, and he's I was a teenager.

你知道，我弟弟大概四岁，而我十四岁，或者他五岁，我十五岁。

I was you know, my brother was, say, four, and I'm 14 or five, and I'm 15.

我看着就觉得，这太无聊了。

And I'm watching, and it's like, this is boring.

他太老土了，太不时髦了。

He's so square, so unhip.

现在我再看他，看到他当着三千人的面做那个特别尴尬的练习的片段。

And I look at him now, and I watch that clip of him doing this really embarrassing exercise in front of 3,000 people.

你可以看到有些人因为做这个而流泪。

And you can see some of them are crying from doing it.

我意识到我以前真的没有充分理解他。

And I realized I I really didn't appreciate him enough.

现在我想到的形容词不是感伤。

He he the the the adjective that comes to mind now is not sentimental.

也不是陈词滥调。

It's not trite.

也不是古板。

It's not square.

也不是无聊。

It's not boring.

而是正派。

It's decent.

他身上散发着正直的气质，而正直在现代文化中已如此过时，因为我们沉迷于感伤、刻板和虚伪。

He he exuded decency, And decency is so out of fashion in modern culture as our sentimentality and squareness, unhypness.

在这个世界上，充斥着讽刺、机智和轻蔑。

It's all in our world, irony and wit and disdain.

当你看到一个男人，他身上丝毫没有轻蔑之意，只是一个正直的人，鼓励着普通人也成为正直的人，他意识到，这真是一种遗憾。

And when you see a man who has it doesn't appear to have an ounce of disdain in his body, and he's just a decent human being encouraging little people to become decent human beings, and he realized, that's a shame.

这种品质的消失，真是一种遗憾。

It's a shame that's gone.

我不知道它是否还在某个地方被重播或回放。

I don't know if it's still on rewind, replay somewhere.

但我想向弗雷德

But want to give Fred

致以应得的敬意。

his due.

他配得上这一切。

He earned it.

阿门。

Amen.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

难以置信。

Incredible.

当他说到正直时，我想说的是，天啊，保持正直需要多大的勇气。

And he's his the I I would say decency when you're saying that, I was gonna say, god, the courage it takes to be decent.

你知道吗？

You know?

我认为他体现的两种品质之一就是对他人的好奇心。

That's I I think these two qualities that he embodies was this this curiosity about other people.

他在肯尼迪遇刺后就加入了。

And he would he brought in after Kennedy was assassinated.

他们在节目中谈到了这件事。

He they talked about it on the show.

他很早就开始帮助人们对抗种族主义。

He was really early on helping people work against racism.

他非常好奇且善于联结，总是与人们这一张网络紧密相连。

He was so curious and connective and always connecting to this fabric of people.

每当发生灾难时，他都会说：去找那些帮助者。

Whenever there was a disaster, he would say, look for the helpers.

那种好奇心与勇气的结合，一直让我印象深刻。

Always that sense of curiosity combined with the courage.

我就喜欢这种组合。

And I just like that as a combination.

好奇心似乎能打开一片空间，让你注意到那扇门，但你得有勇气才能跨过去。

It feels like curiosity kind of opens up that space and lets you notice the door, but you have to be gutsy to step through it.

你不能只是停留在‘我非常感激并好奇他人’这种状态。

You cannot just remain, oh, I'm so appreciative and curious about other people.

他们是不是很棒？

Aren't they great?

你确实得去做那些让人害怕的事，就像你主动联系朋友那样。

You actually have to do the scary thing, which you did reaching calling your friend.

你不仅仅是想想他们而已。

You didn't just think of them.

你给他们打了电话。

You called them.

我认为，这正是那种行动步骤，它体现了群体流动的那种感觉。

And and that is, I think, that action step that that speaks to kind of what that group flow piece feels like.

你知道吗？

You know?

不仅仅是你散发着意义感并且感觉很棒。

It's not just that you're radiating with meaning and it feels good.

为了真正蓬勃发展，你必须踏入不确定性，看看会发生什么，并去应对。

In order to flourish, you actually have to step into the uncertainty, see what happens, navigate.

也许你和朋友的对话一开始并不顺利，你得重新调整一下。

Maybe the conversation with your friend doesn't go great at first, and you've gotta kinda refigure that out.

或者也许对话非常顺利，现在你有了探索其他可能性的机会。

Or maybe it goes great, and now you got an opportunity to explore something else.

所以这是一种很棒的组合，我认为他将好奇心与非凡的勇气完美地结合在了一起。

So it's it's a great combo that I think he embodies that curiosity with, like, incredible courage.

我讨厌他每次都穿那件毛衣、做同样的事情，而我并没有意识到孩子喜欢规律。

And I hated that he put on that sweater and and did all these things the same way every time, and I didn't realize that children love routine.

这对他们来说是一种仪式。

That's a ritual for them.

这就是为什么他们想一遍又一遍地听同一个故事。

That's why they wanna hear the same story over and over again.

他们从来不会觉得厌烦。

Does they never get tired of it.

不会。

No.

我们换个话题。

Let's shift gears.

我们来谈谈朱莉·卡梅隆和晨间随笔，我以前从来没听说过。

Let's talk about Julie Cameron and Morning Pages, which I had never heard of.

这是一个非常有趣的练习。

Such an interesting exercise.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，这属于一类问题：我们如何开启我们的关系性注意力？

You know, it's kind of in this in this category of how do we turn on our relational attention?

我们如何放下控制？

How do we let go of control?

朱莉·卡梅隆是个有趣的人。

And Julie Cameron was an interesting person.

她曾是《滚石》杂志的记者、编剧，早年酗酒，过着摇滚明星式的生活，写过《滚石》的封面报道。

She was a journalist for Rolling Stone, screenwriter, got suffered from alcoholism early in her life and had a kind of had the rock and roll lifestyle, you know, writing Rolling Stone cover stories.

她的生活渐渐偏离了轨道。

Things kinda went sideways for her.

她在三十岁出头时，带着一个婴儿女儿，离婚了，住在新墨西哥州，努力戒酒。

She ended up kind of in her early thirties, kinda washed up in New Mexico with an infant daughter divorced and and trying to get sober.

她的一个朋友看到她正试图写作。

And a friend of hers, she was trying to write.

她一直在写，拼命想写，却毫无进展。

She's trying to write, trying to write, having no luck.

她的一位朋友给了她一些建议，就是别再试图写得好。

And a friend of hers gave her some advice, which was just like, stop trying to be good.

别再想着写出好东西了。

Like, stop trying to write good stuff.

你该关心的是数量。

You should just worry about the quantity.

于是她在书桌上方贴了一张便利贴，上面写着：好吧，上帝。

And so she put a post it note above her desk that said, okay, god.

你负责质量。

You handle the quality.

我负责数量。

I'll handle the quantity.

我每天写三页。

I'll do three pages every day.

她真的这么做了。

And she did it.

她甚至没有多想。

She didn't even think.

她只是走到书桌前，开始随意写下脑海中浮现的任何东西。

She just walked to her walked to her and started scribbling whatever was on her mind.

哦，我头疼，或者蟑螂正从门廊上爬过，之类的。

Oh, I have a headache, and the the cockroach is crawling across the the porch or whatever.

她发现，这种每天写三页、不管写什么、随心所欲的表达方式，对她作为一个人和一位艺术家来说，都变得异常充满活力且令人解放。

And what she found was that this process, three pages a day, no matter what, whatever whatever you express, ended up being extraordinarily vitalizing and liberating for her both as a person and as an artist.

她开始开设一些课程。

She started to teach some classes.

突然间，人们像传阅圣典一样传阅她的讲义。

All of a sudden, people are passing around her handouts like they're the sacred writ.

她一时兴起，出版了一本书。

She, on a whim, publishes a book.

这本书已经售出了数百万册。

It's now sold millions and millions and millions of copies.

它叫做《艺术家的方式》。

It's called the artist's way.

它是一系列练习，基于放下控制，以及在创作层面上建立有意义的联结。

And it's a series of exercise built on letting go of control and built on creating meaningful connection in a in a creative sense.

但受益于这本书的并不仅仅是艺术家。

But it's not just artists who have benefited from this book.

当你观察那些坚持晨间书写的人时，会发现各行各业的能人志士都将此纳入了日常习惯。

When you look at the people who regularly do morning pages, it is a a dazzling variety of skilled people who make this part of their routine.

为什么它有效？

Why does it work?

因为没有任务。

Well, there's no task.

也没有控制。

There's no control.

你只是顺其自然，让任何浮现出来的东西自由流淌，这真的非常强大。

You're simply surrendering to whatever comes out, and it it's really powerful.

你做吗？

Do you do it?

我我

I I

这就是我的问题。

I this is my problem.

我很难做到，因为我习惯于带着目标写作，所以很难放下这种心态，停止控制。

I I I struggle with like, I'm used to writing with a goal, and so it's very hard for me to let go of that and stop.

我发现自己正在努力给那句话加上某种倾向。

I catch myself, oh, I'm really trying to put the spin on that phrase.

这真是个很好的说法。

That's a really nice one.

我开始评判了。

I start judging.

但当我这么做的时候，它确实非常有力量。

But when I do, it really is powerful.

我大概只做了一半的时间，但我需要每天都做。

It's a I I do it maybe half the time, but I need to make it every day.

我猜这对作家来说比对其他类型的艺术家更难。

My guess is it's harder for writers than it is for other types of artists.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

我们该做点别的。

We should do something else.

晨间陶艺、晨间舞蹈，或者某种我们不擅长的其他形式。

Morning pottery or morning dance or something some other form that we're not good at.

对。

Yeah.

这可能是真的。

It's probably true.

我从未做过。

I I have never done it.

我喜欢这个想法，我觉得它很有趣。

I love the idea, but I think it's fascinating.

关于控制，我想谈的最后一件事是约翰·戈特曼和朱莉娅·施瓦茨对婚姻的见解。

The the the the last thing I wanna talk about with respect to control is John Gottman and Julia Schwartz's insights into marriage.

嗯。

And Mhmm.

给我们简单介绍一下这个。

Give us a little bit of an introduction to that.

我想再回到他们提到的某一件具体的事情。

I wanna come back to one very specific thing they say.

但他们对于婚姻和如何建立良好关系的整体策略是什么？

But what's their general strategy for thinking about marriage and how to have a good relationship?

这是一个很好的故事。

This is a good story.

我的意思是，多年来，关系领域有很多不同的改善关系的项目。

I mean, for many years, the relationship business, like, there have been a lot of different programs to improve relationships.

早在三十年代，我记得他们有一个评分表，根据伴侣的行为扣分或加分。

Back in the back in the thirties, I think they had a scorecard where, know, if you deduct or add points depending on how your partner behaved.

许多这样的体系都建立在这样一个观念上：婚姻是一台需要被修复的机器。

And a lot of these systems were built on this idea that a relationship is a machine that needs to be fixed.

当你修理机器时，你会找到坏掉的零件并把它换掉。

And when you fix machines, you find the broken part and you replace it.

所以，这就是过去很多婚姻治疗所依据的模式。

So that's where a lot of that that's the model around which a lot of therapy relationship therapy used to be.

戈特曼和施瓦茨是一对独特的夫妇。

And Gottman and Schwartz were kind of a unique couple.

他是一位科学家。

He was a scientist.

他在华盛顿大学设立了一个名为‘爱情实验室’的地方，通过摄像机和录音设备实时追踪数据。

He had something called a love lab in in University of Washington where he would track in real time with video cameras and recorders.

他让夫妻们进来交谈，然后观察他们的行为模式。

He had couples come in and talk, and then he would see what their patterns of behavior are.

施瓦茨则是一位顶尖的临床专家。

And Schwartz was a top clinician.

他们结合在一起，得出的洞察是：如果亲密关系不是机器呢？

And they came together, and their insight was, well, what if relationships aren't machines?

比如，如果它们不是机器呢？

Like, what if they're not machines?

如果它们像这些活生生的系统呢？

What if they're like these living systems?

整个理念是让人们以一种不同的方式关注彼此，停止控制对方，转而开始在关系中做出回应。

And the whole thing is to get people to pay attention to each other in a different way, to stop controlling each other and start, like, responding in the relationship.

回应。

Responding.

于是他们开发了一系列所谓的‘动作’。

And so they developed a series of sort of moves.

这些动作有点像瑜伽课。

They're kinda like yoga class.

其中一个动作是‘转向对方’，也就是当你的伴侣向你寻求关注时，比如他们清了清嗓子，或者走进房间时脸上带着某种表情，你会转向他们吗？

Like, one of them is, like, turn toward, which is whenever your partner makes a bid for your attention, maybe they clear their throat, maybe they walk in the room and kinda have a look on their face, do you turn toward them?

当他们分享困难的事情时，你会转向他们吗？

When they share something difficult, do you turn toward them?

你是保持中立，还是选择转身离开？

Are you neutral, or do you turn away?

戈特曼的研究表明，转向对方是关系健康的重要指标。

And Gottman's research will show that turning toward is an incredible indicator of a healthy relationship.

转身离开或保持中立则是关系不佳的标志。

Turning away or being neutral is an indicator of a bad relationship.

他们还讨论了很多这类事情，比如去了解你伴侣内心的世界，观察你们彼此的关注点。

And so there's a whole bunch of these different things they talk about, you know, kind of figuring out the the love maps of your people are scanning.

我最喜欢的是关注欣赏的方面。

My favorite one is scanning for appreciation.

我们的注意力总喜欢寻找问题。

Like, our task attention loves to scan for problems.

瞧，又来了。

Like, oh, there it is again.

又来了。

There it is again.

就是这种模式。

There's that pattern.

我们真的很擅长发现模式。

We're really good pattern finders.

对吧？

Right?

模式。

Pattern.

模式。

Pattern.

模式。

Pattern.

这可能会毁掉一段关系。

And that could be death to a relationship.

但关注欣赏能用好奇心取代这种模式。

But scanning for appreciation replaces that with curiosity.

它会轻微地触动你的关系注意力。

It clicks on your relational attention a little bit.

于是，灯笼亮了起来。

So the lantern goes on.

突然间，你开始环顾四周，心想：哦，那真的很好。

All of a sudden, you're looking around and go, oh, that was really nice.

比如，那真的很有心。

Like, that was really thoughtful.

哦，谢谢你。

Oh, thank you.

对吧？

Right?

所以，所有这些行为都可以通过这些注意力系统的视角来理解——你不是试图聚焦并控制对方，而是与对方共同舞动，回应他们的行为，而他们也在回应你的行为。

And so it's these it's all of their stuff can be viewed through the lens of these attentional systems where instead of focusing and trying to control the other person, you're actually in kind of a dance with them responding to what they do, and they're responding to what you do.

而且，说实话，实践证明这是有效的，不像那些旨在修复和取代的其他系统。

And, I mean, the track record shows that it it actually works unlike some of those other systems which are designed to fix and replace.

我觉得有趣的是，我见过这种情形持续一段时间：当你处于争论、某种分歧或其他互动中时，其中一人必须限制自己的语言回应。

The thing I found interesting, and I I've seen this at durations of this, is where you're in a an argument or some kind of disagreement or some kind of other interaction, and one person has to limit their verbal responses.

他们可以提问，但不能发表评论。

They can ask a question, but they can't comment, say.

是的。

Yep.

或者他们可以评论，但不能为自己辩解。

Or they can comment, but they can't defend.

你在书中举了一些对话的例子，比如一个是模拟对话，另一个是真实视频，其中一方或双方轮流扮演倾听者的角色。

They can and you give some a couple examples in the book of dialogue where, you know, one is a a mock dialogue and one is an actual video where, you know, if he one of the partners or they take turns playing this role as listener.

当然，我对这一点的观察是，这种模式、模式、模式的现象。

And, of course, my observation on this is that pattern, pattern, pattern thing.

一段长久关系（无论是友谊还是婚姻）最大的挑战，就是陷入惯性、陷入固定脚本。

The biggest challenge of a long standing relationship, whether it's a friendship or a marriage, is the rut, the script.

一个人说了什么，另一个人就用过去20次面对同样提示时的相同方式回应，然后我们都清楚对方接下来会怎么回话，于是就被困在这种不健康的来回循环中。

One person says something, the other person responds the way they've responded the last 20 times with that cue, and then we all know what the person is going to respond back, and you're locked in this unhealthy ritual of back and forth.

我认为，打破这种模式的一种方法是改变游戏规则，稍微调整河岸的位置，迫使你进入不同的渠道，这真的很有趣。

And the idea that one way to break that is to change the rules of the game, put the riverbank up a little differently, and force you into a different channel, I think is really interesting.

真的很有趣。

Really interesting.

对。

Right.

在这种惯性中，意味着我们可以从很多不同的角度来探讨这个问题。

And that in that rut, mean, there's a bunch of different ways we could take this.

这就是一个复杂的动态系统。

That's the complexity dynamic system.

让我们来构建一些应对惯性的方法。

Like, let's put it let's let's build these are how we respond to ruts.

对吗？

Right?

让我们设立一个新的河岸。

Let's put up a new riverbank.

让我们设定一个新的约束条件。

Let's have a new constraint.

让我们设定一个新的视野，也许这也是另一种方式。

Let's let's have a new horizon maybe is another one.

从有意的角度来看，我认为还有一种其他的转变。

And and from an intentional point of view, there's this other sort of shift, I think.

当我们狭隘地看待我们的伴侣时，我们确实会看到那些模式。

When we look narrowly at our partners, we do see those patterns.

但当我们去寻找欣赏之处并真正去观察他们时，有人曾说过这样的话。

But when we scan for appreciation and really look at them, there was something somebody said.

我会把这句话说糟了，因为我不记得是谁说的，但大意是：现在，我对妻子的爱，就在于她越被我了解就越显得神秘。

I I I'm gonna butcher it because I don't know who said it, but it was something along the lines of, like, my wife now, my love for her is all about her becoming more mysterious as I get to know her.

核心意思是，我如此爱她，以至于几乎不了解她。

Like, the more I'm so in love with her that I barely know her was kind of the takeaway.

她对我来说依然是个谜。

Like, she's such a mystery to me.

我没有意识到她竟然是如此神秘的人。

I didn't appreciate what a mystery that she really is.

正如你之前提到的，我们每个人都是无数微小互动和与我们相遇的人的产物，了解一个人真是件极其神秘的事。

And to your point earlier about how we're all the product of these million, this ocean of little interactions and people that we've had, that's a really mysterious thing to know a person.

真正了解一个人，就是要拥抱这份神秘。

To really know a person is to lean into that mystery.

因此，几乎要扭转这种惯性，说好吧。

And so to almost kind of flip that rut and say, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

通过这种视角来看，它可能感觉像是一种困境。

It can feel like a rut through this lens.

但当我改变视角时，天哪。

But when I change when I change the lens, like, holy cow.

我还有这么多不了解的地方。

There's so much here I don't know.

这确实让人感到振奋，我觉得。

And that's kind of that that that's energizing, I think.

当然，这对我们也适用。

And, of course, it's true for ourselves.

对吧？

Right?

我们以为自己了解自己。

We think we know ourselves.

我们以为自己知道为什么要做这件事或那件事。

We think we know why we do this or that.

我们没有意识到，小时候发生的一些事让我们觉得这些事令人愉悦或痛苦。

We don't realize that something happened to us when we were younger that made this rewarding for us or painful for us.

因此，我们会倾向于某些类型的活动或互动，或者逃避它们。

So we gravitate toward or run away from certain types of activities or interactions.

如果你能设法将好奇心保持在自己身上，它就会非常强大。

And curiosity is very powerful if you can manage to keep it about yourself.