本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
从学龄前到终身学习的创新，源于杰出的人才。
Innovation in preK to gray learning is powered by exceptional people.
十五多年来，各规模和阶段的教育科技公司都信赖高等教育来发掘推动影响力的人才。
For over fifteen years, EdTech companies of all sizes and stages have trusted higher education to find the talent that drives impact.
当特定技能和经验至关重要时，高等教育是能够提供支持的合作伙伴。
When specific skills and experiences are mission critical, higher education is a partner that delivers.
高等教育提供全职、兼职和高管招聘服务，深知您所需的市场人才。
Offering permanent, fractional, and executive recruitment, higher education knows the go to market talent you need.
了解更多，请访问 hireedu.com。
Learn more at hireedu.com.
那就是 hireedu.com。
That's hireedu.com.
因此，要想象如何围绕这些挑战建立一个社区，简直令人望而生畏。
So to kind of fathom how would I build a community around these kind of challenges is kind of daunting.
所以人们通常懒得去理会我迟早会提到的那件事。
So people just kind of don't bother with the thing that I will get to at some point.
但如果你有一个工具包，能够让你以排行榜或挑战赛的方式轻松连接这些人，并通过简单的集成就能运行，那么我希望会有更多平台开始做这类事情，结果就是每个人都会更享受使用这些平台，并从中获得更多的价值。
But if you had a toolkit that just let you connect people in those ways with the leaderboards or challenges and kind of just run it with a very simple integration, then I'd hope that we'd see a lot more platforms doing those kind of things, and the outcome would be that everybody enjoys these using these platforms a lot more and gets a lot more from them.
所以这正是我们想要的
So that's kind of what we wanna
《内部人士》——覆盖教育科技行业的顶级播客。
Insiders, the top podcast covering the education technology industry.
从融资轮次到影响力，再到从幼儿教育、K12、高等教育到职场的AI发展，你在这里的《教育科技内部人士》都能找到。
From funding rounds to impact to AI developments across early childhood, k 12, higher ed, and work, you'll find it all here at EdTech Insiders.
别忘了订阅我们的播客，查看我们的通讯，以及我们的活动日历。
Remember to subscribe to the pod, check out our newsletter, and also our event calendar.
如需深入了解，请访问《教育科技内部人士 Plus》，获取优质内容、加入我们的WhatsApp频道、优先参与活动，以及获取Alex和Ben的幕后洞察。
And to go deeper, check out EdTech insiders plus, where you can get premium content, access to our WhatsApp channel, early access to events, and back channel insights from Alex and Ben.
希望你们喜欢今天的播客。
Hope you enjoy today's pod.
今天我们带来了一期非常精彩的《教育科技内部人士》节目，嘉宾在教育科技和健康科技领域正进行着一些极具创新的尝试。
We have a really exciting episode of EdTech insiders today with a guest doing something really innovative in the EdTech and health tech space.
查理·霍普金斯-布里尼科姆是Trophy.so的联合创始人。
Charlie Hopkins-Brinicombe is cofounder of Trophy.so.
这是一款游戏化基础设施平台，帮助产品团队在几周内而非几个月内构建游戏化学习体验。
It's a gamification infrastructure platform that helps product teams build gamified learning experiences in weeks, not months.
Trophy经过实战检验的工具旨在帮助教育科技平台避免常见的游戏化陷阱，大规模提供引人入胜的学习体验。
Trophy's battle tested tools are designed to help EdTech platforms avoid common gamification pitfalls and deliver engaging learning experiences at scale.
查理·霍普金斯-布里尼科姆，欢迎来到教育科技内参。
Charlie Hopkins-Brinicombe, welcome to EdTech Insiders.
谢谢，亚历克斯。
Thanks, Alex.
感谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
我们几个月前聊过，我了解到一些Trophy的业务，我觉得你们在游戏化和用户参与方面的做法非常创新。
We chatted a few months ago, and I learned a little bit about what Trophy does, and I just thought it was such an innovative approach to gamification and to engagement.
在深入讨论之前，先给我们介绍一下Trophy是什么，以及你们是如何产生‘游戏化即服务’这个想法的？
Before we get into anything else, tell us a little bit about what Trophy is and how you came up with this idea for basically gamification as a service.
是的。
Yeah.
这是一个有趣的话题。
It's an interesting one.
本质上，我手机里有一长串我觉得值得解决的想法，我已经大概做了三四年这样的清单，不断往待办列表里添加。
Essentially, I have, like, a long list in my phone of ideas of things that seem like good things to solve, And I've been maybe making that list for three or four years, just adding to the backlog, adding to the backlog.
我总有一天会去做的。
I'll get around to it at some point.
然后我才发现，原来这个想法排在最前面。
And then I actually discovered this is actually at the top.
它是我写下的第一个想法。
It was the very first one that I wrote down.
于是我心想，也许我应该试着去实现它，开始找一些人聊聊，进一步探索一下。
And so I was like, maybe I should just give this a go and started to kind of find people to speak to about it and explore a little bit more.
我越和人交流，就越意识到这其实是一个已经被解决的问题。
And the more I spoke to people, the more I kind of realized that this is really a solved problem.
排行榜、徽章系统、连续打卡或推送通知引擎这些想法，其实大家都在做类似的事情，只是方式略有不同，因此需要相当灵活。
The idea of a leaderboard or a badge system or a streak or a push notifications engine is really kind of everybody's doing the same thing, but it's maybe in a slightly different way, so it needs to be fairly flexible.
但归根结底，排行榜就是根据你设计的某种逻辑对用户进行排名。
But at the end of the day, a leaderboard is ranking people according to some kind of logic that you might design.
如果有一个系统能让你无需做这些前期工作就能实现这一点，那将大大降低使用门槛，减轻用户的负担。
If there was a system that would allow you to do that without doing any of that upfront work, then it would make it far more accessible for people and create less of that headache for them.
这就是它的起源。
So that's how it started.
目前的发展情况是，我们平台已有大约30个团队在使用，涵盖教育科技、健康与健身等领域，正如你所说。
And how it's going is we have about 30 teams that use our platform across EdTech and health and wellness, as you said.
我们上周刚参加了Web Summit，与大量不同平台探讨了如何在他们的场景中实现游戏化。
We just went to a web summit last week and spoke to loads and loads of different platforms about how to do gamification in their context.
是的，过去一年这段旅程真的非常精彩，我们正努力持续增长。
So, yeah, it's been a it's really, really cool journey for the last year, and we're just trying to keep growing.
这是一种非常创新的方法，因为正如你所说，多年来，许多不同行业的公司一直在各自为政地重复发明这一功能，甚至可能已经将近二十年了。
It's such an innovative approach because, as you say, it's something that is being reinvented in silos in many different companies across sectors for a decade or more, maybe even almost two decades at this point.
人们开始意识到，嘿。
People have been starting to figure out, hey.
我们希望用户更加活跃。
We want our users to be more engaged.
我们希望留住他们。
We wanna retain them.
我们希望让他们在我们的网站或服务中完成特定的行为。
We wanna be able to get them to do particular behaviors on our site or in our service.
而这种游戏化结构对此非常有效。
And structure, sort of gamification structure is very powerful for that.
我们看到多邻国正是基于这一点，成为教育科技领域最大的公司之一。
We've seen Duolingo become one of the biggest companies in EdTech really based on exactly that.
但让每个人都要自己摸索、拼凑组件、管理这一切，很多时候都是在重复劳动，因为这个问题其实已经解决了。
But the idea of everybody having to sort of figure this out on their own, pull the pieces together, manage it, it's wasted effort in a lot of cases when it's something solved.
你提到教育科技和健康科技是你正在涉足的两大行业。
So you'd mentioned education technology and health tech as two big industries that you're working in.
这些有什么共同点？
What do these have in common?
游戏化为您的客户解决了哪些需求？
What are the need that the gamification is solving for your customers?
当他们找到您时，他们会说他们希望通过这个游戏化平台获得什么？
And when they find you, what do they say about what they're looking to get out of this gamification platform?
是的。
Yeah.
这主要是为了强化人们想要养成的习惯，或者强化人们本身已有的内在动力。
It's really to reinforce habits that people want to create or to reinforce intrinsic motivation that's already there in people.
我认为很多时候，人们试图在根本不太适合的系统中加入游戏化元素。
I think a lot of times people try to add gamification to systems where maybe it doesn't really make much sense in the first place.
比如一个工作场所平台，人们并没有内在动力去那里，因为他们不得不去。
So think of a workplace platform, people don't really have the intrinsic motivation to be there because they have to do it.
他们是因为领工资才做这些事的。
They're being paid to do that.
所以有时候这些东西可能会显得有点奇怪。
So sometimes these things can feel kind of weird.
但在消费类平台，尤其是教育科技和健康领域，人们做这些事情是因为他们希望自己的生活能有所改变。
But in consumer platforms, especially in EdTech and Wellness, people are doing these things because they want to see some change in their life.
因此，如果你能通过给予他们一些继续前进的动力，或者只是以一种良好的方式展示他们的进展来帮助他们达成目标，那就会非常有帮助。
And so if you can help them to get there by either giving them a little bit of motivation to keep going or just giving them a nice way of seeing how they're doing, then it really helps.
许多公司已经利用这种洞察实现了规模化发展。
And a lot of companies have used this kind of insight to scale.
所以，是的，我们只是想成为以优雅方式实现这一点的工具包，我想。
So, yeah, we're trying to just kind of be the toolkit for doing that in an elegant way, I guess.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这种激励机制的对齐——我不知道你是否这么称呼——但用户确实希望保持健康。
I think that aligning of incentives, or I don't know if you'd call it that, but the idea of, like, the user wants to be in wellness.
他们希望定期与治疗师沟通。
They wanna be checking in with a therapist.
他们想吃药。
They wanna be taking medication.
他们想做冥想。
They wanna be doing a meditation.
他们想做那些健康平台希望他们做的事情。
They want to be doing the things that they're doing the wellness platform to do.
在教育领域，他们想完成一门课程。
And in education, they wanna be finishing a class.
他们想学习一门语言。
They wanna be learning a language.
但问题是，内在动机是起伏不定的。
But the issue is there's sort of the intrinsic motivation waxes and wanes.
它时有时无。
It comes and goes.
你生活中还有其他事情在发生。
You have other things going on in your life.
因此，教育的理念提供了一种极其清晰且持续的结构。
So the idea of education just provides this incredibly clear and continuous structure.
你会说，我已经连续十天了。
And you say, I'm on a streak of ten days.
我认识一些人，他们说在多邻国已经连续二百天了。
I talk to people who they're like, I've been on two hundred day streak at Duolingo.
这仅仅强化并创造了一种额外的激励，让他们去做原本就想做的事情。
It just sort of it accentuates and creates an additional incentive for them to do something that they already wanna do.
我觉得这正是游戏化所做之事中可能被低估的部分。
And I feel like that's something that's so something that may be underappreciated in what gamification does.
是的。
Yeah.
另外补充一点，现在每个人都非常忙碌，注意力非常宝贵，也许并不是有些人不想使用你的产品。
And just to add to that, the I think the idea of just everybody's so busy and attention is very expensive, and it might not be that, you know, some people don't want to use your products.
你可能会看自己的30天或70天留存率，然后认为，人们就是不想用我的产品。
You might look at your thirty day or seventy day retention and say, like, you know, people just don't want to use my product.
但事实上，可能他们确实想用，只是无法做到，因为你没有真正引导他们回来，也没有对抗他们生活中其他纷繁复杂的事物。
But really, it might just be they do, but they just can't because you're not really telling them to come back or you're not fighting against all the other things that's going on in their life.
所以，如果你能在恰当的时机给予一点推动，他们其实就希望被这样推动，这正是人们会庆祝那些连续打卡的原因。
So if you can just nudge them in the right places, then you're kind of they want to be nudged, that's why people do celebrate those streaks that you're saying.
人们之所以在领英上大声宣告自己在Duolingo上有了千日打卡记录，就是因为他们在乎这个。
That's why people shout on LinkedIn and say, I've got a thousand day streak on Duolingo because they want that.
我们可以讨论Duolingo是否走得有点过头了，但这是我从人们那里听到的普遍看法。
We can discuss whether Duolingo particularly has gone a bit too far or or not, but it's kind of the common thing that I hear from people.
不过，这 anyway 就是我想要说的。
But, yeah, that's what I would say anyway.
我对此有个人兴趣，因为我的硕士论文就是关于教育中的游戏机制。
I have a personal interest in this because my master's thesis was about game mechanics in education.
这是我长期以来一直关注的问题。
It's something I've cared about for a very long time.
这实际上发生在‘游戏化’这个词被广泛创造和流行之前。
This was actually right before the term gamification was sort of really coined and popularized.
我记得那种顿悟的时刻。
And I remember just that realization.
那是我人生中最重要的顿悟之一。
It was one of the big realizations of my life.
我当时读了詹姆斯·保罗·吉和其他人的作品，心想，人们已经发现了这些极其强大的激励工具。
I read James Paul G and other people at the time and just said, people have figured out these unbelievably powerful motivation tools.
我最近玩了一个苹果游戏，叫《Archero》，这简直就是游戏化设计的典范。
I've been playing an Apple game recently, an App Store game called Archero, and it is like this masterclass in gamification.
每一刻，他们都在为你解锁新的内容。
Every moment, they are unlocking something new.
他们让你置身于全新的情境中。
They're putting you in a new situation.
你一直在朝着某个即将实现的成就努力，它总是在不远处等着你。
You're building toward you know, it's always right around the corner from some new achievement.
这简直不可思议，我发现自己每天都沉浸其中。
It's, like, unbelievable, and I'm finding myself locking in every day.
它就是效果特别好。
It just it works so well.
我想象当你们去向一些客户或潜在客户介绍你们的游戏化基础设施平台时，他们会问：我到底能从中得到什么？
And I imagine that some of your customers or potential customers, when you come and say we do gamification infrastructure platform, they say, what am I really gonna get out of this?
这真的有效吗？
Does it work?
它能提升多日留存率和用户参与度吗？
Is it going to drive multi day retention and engagement?
我很想知道，到目前为止，你们观察到这个平台究竟为这些客户带来了哪些实际效果，因为我觉得有时候人们完全相信这类机制，但有时候又非常怀疑。
And I'm curious what you've seen so far in terms of what the platform is actually delivering for these customers because I think sometimes people are just all in on on these types of mechanisms, and sometimes they're very skeptical.
我很想知道你们看到了什么。
I'm curious what you've seen.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这其中有局限性。
I think there is a limit.
你必须始终关注你的平台真正关注的是什么。
You have to always keep in touch with what your platform's actually about.
如果你试图把你的教育科技平台设计得像一个游戏，你最终会变成像Duolingo那样，然后人们会说你更像一个游戏，而不是真正鼓励人们学习语言，这一点可以争论。
If you try and design your EdTech platform like a game, you'll end up like Duolingo, and then you'll get people saying that you're more a game, you don't really encourage people how to learn a language, which can be debated.
但我认为还是有一个限度的。
But so I think there is a limit.
但只要你保持与用户的联系，理解他们确实有学习的动力，你始终为这种动机而设计，而不是单纯追求参与度，那么你自然会获得你想要的结果。
But as long as you keep in touch with that user and understand that they do actually want to, like, their motivation is still there and you're always designing for that rather than for engagement, then you'll naturally get the outcome that you want anyway.
只要帮助他们做他们本来就想做的事，你就能达成目标，而不是强行灌输或强迫他们。
Just by helping them do the thing that they want to do anyway, you'll get to the outcome rather than trying to, like, force it and shove it down their throats.
这正是我们看待问题的方式。
And that's how we see it anyways.
我们更像是一个略微中立的工具包，但越来越多的时候，我们实际上是在引导人们如何正确使用我们所构建的东西。
We we are, like, a slightly unopinionated toolkit, but more and more of what we've been doing is actually guiding people how to use what we've built in the right way.
所以，是的，我们现在确实更多地在做这类事情。
So, yeah, we do actually do more of that now.
你们的一些客户取得了哪些成果？
And what results are you seeing for some of your customers?
我很想了解一下，你不必给出具体数字，但我很好奇人们期望通过游戏化带来多大的提升。
I'd love to just you know, you don't have to give exact numbers, but I'm so curious about the uplift people sort of expect with gamification.
有时候当他们自己尝试时，并不奏效。
Sometimes when they do it themselves, it doesn't work.
当他们使用Trophy时，情况通常如何？
How does it tend to work when they do it with Trophy?
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，有一个有趣的地方是我们的一项功能是邮件功能。
Something that's interesting actually is, like, one of our features is an emails feature.
我们会每周向用户发送进度报告，告知他们在各个平台上的表现。
So we send weekly progress reports to people saying how they've done on various platforms.
因为我们是从我们的服务端发送这些邮件，并且会收到用户的回复，这非常有趣。
Because we send those out from kind of our service, and we get the replies back, which is really interesting.
我们的客户会回复我们，告诉我们他们的感受。
Our customer get the replies back, and they tell us about them.
他们说：请别停止发送这些邮件，我真的很喜欢这些邮件。
It's like, well, please don't stop sending these because I really love these emails.
它们看起来非常精美，而且真的能激励我。
They look so nice, and they really motivate me.
他们担心最后一条是：我们即将停止发送这些提醒。
And they're worried that the last one is, well, we're going to stop sending these reminders.
但其实他们会说：哦，不，请别停止。
But it's like, oh, no, please don't stop.
我想继续做下去。
I want to do it.
我只是最近特别忙，所以你们能继续发送吗？
I've just been really, really busy, so can you please keep sending them?
这些正是我们看到的：这些东西实际上符合人们的最佳利益，并且确实在帮助他们。
These are the kind of things that we see as like, oh, this stuff actually is in people's best interests, and it is helping them.
这是我们注意到的一点。
That's one thing that we've picked up on.
是的。
Yeah.
你们会向客户提供的某些指标，说明这些新机制如何影响产品指标吗？还是说这主要由客户自己那边来处理？
And do you provide some of the metrics to your customers in terms of how it's changing the product metrics to include these new mechanisms, or is that something that tends to work on their side?
我们确实有这些工具。
We do have those tools.
我们监控留存率。
We monitor retention.
我们实际上做的一件很有意思的事是，开发了一个影响评分系统。
And one of the things we actually do, which is quite interesting, is we've developed this kind of impact score.
这些功能确实产生了效果。
The features are actually performing.
因此，我们可以监控基础留存率，告诉你第一天的留存率是多少、第七天的留存率是多少，然后叠加另一条曲线，展示当你加入连续签到、徽章功能或排行榜后，留存率是如何变化的。
So we can monitor baseline retention and say this is what your first day retention is, your seven day retention is, and then overlay another plot of this is what it looks like when you add a streak or when you add a badges feature or a leaderboard and to actually see how it changes the behavior.
我们还会在这一块做更多工作。
And we're gonna be doing lots more around that as well.
实验是所有消费类平台的重要组成部分。
Experimentation is a big part of all consumer platforms.
因此，我们将推出一套完整的实验系统，让你可以指定一组用户使用这一组功能。
So we're going to be adding a full experimentation stack where you can say, this set of users is going to get this set of features.
另一组用户则使用不同的功能组合。
This set of users is going to get a different set.
也许打卡机制会略有不同，或者排行榜的运作方式稍有差异。
Maybe the streak mechanic is slightly different or the leaderboard works in a slightly different way.
然后我们来看看会发生什么。
And then let's just see what happens.
之后你可以获取所有这些反馈，自行试验我们工具包中的各种功能，这正是所有大型平台都在做的事情。
And then you can get all that feedback and then just experiment with all the different bits of the toolkit that we've got and do that for yourself, which is what all the big platforms are doing anyway.
他们发现，在规模化时，实验是实现理想结果的关键，但实施起来却很困难。
They figured out experimentation is the key at scale to get the outcomes that you want, but it's difficult to do.
这是一门独立的学科。
It's its own discipline.
因此，如果我们能构建一个可以嵌入到游戏化系统本身的工具，因为有时你会遇到一个自制的游戏化引擎，它把数据推送到其他分析工具和另一个实验工具，这些工具必须协同工作，但长期来看，这种整合存在大量摩擦和维护成本。
And so if we can build a tool that can embed with the gamification system itself because what you sometimes get is you get a homegrown gamification engine, and then it's pushing stuff some other analytics tool and some other experimentation tool that kind of has to work together, but there's a lot of friction, and there's a lot of maintenance involved long term to do that.
所以，如果我们能把游戏化引擎、让产品经理能够管理整个机制的管理系统，以及分析和实验功能全部整合在一个平台上，那么对所有人来说都会简单得多。
So we can have everything in one platform, the gamification engine, the management system to get product managers in to actually manage the whole mechanics and then the analytics and experimentation in one place, then it makes everything simpler for everyone.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
Tuck Advisors 由曾成功创建并出售自己公司的创业者创立。
Tuck Advisors was founded by entrepreneurs who built and sold their own companies.
由于对其他并购公司感到不满，他们创建了自己希望当初能聘请却找不到的那一家。
Frustrated by other m and a firms, they created the one they wished they could have hired but couldn't find.
一家真正理解创始人需求、以成交交易的百分比为北极星指标的公司。
One who understands what matters to founders and whose North Star KPI is the percentage of deals closed.
如果你正在考虑出售或收购一家教育科技公司，请立即联系 Tuck Advisors。
If you're thinking of selling your EdTech company or buying one, contact Tuck Advisors now.
是的
Yeah.
这是一个非常强大的想法，因为快速实验以及对用户子群体进行A/B测试的能力本身就有巨大价值。
That's a very powerful idea because that rapid experimentation and that ability to do AB testing or to test with subsegments of your user base is its own value.
能够快速针对不同类型用户尝试不同方案，再将这些与核心游戏化机制结合，这非常强大。
I mean, it's incredibly useful to be able to rapidly try different things with different types of users, and then tying that into the core gamification mechanics is very powerful.
能够尝试和调整，为不同人群找到最合适的机制，这其中蕴含着巨大的潜力。
The ability to try and tweak and get the exact right type of mechanisms for the right types of people, there's a huge upside there.
我喜欢这种基线测量的方式。
And I love that baseline measuring.
这又是非常产品导向的。
That's another very product y.
你希望确保人们清楚各种功能的基线留存率或基线参与度，然后观察添加新功能后带来的变化。
You like making sure that people understand the baseline retention or the baseline engagement for various things, and then what's the delta for when you add different features.
这真的非常强大。
It's really powerful.
那我们来谈谈教育方面的内容。
So let's talk about the education side of this.
教育科技平台的形式多种多样。
EdTech platforms come in many different shapes and sizes.
有学校平台。
There's school platforms.
有面向消费者的平台。
There's consumer platforms.
我猜你的系统主要会与直接面向消费者的教育科技公司合作，但如果你错了请纠正我。
I imagine that with your system, you primarily would work with EdTech companies that are direct to consumer, but correct me if I'm wrong there.
你通常看到的是这种情况吗？
Is that what you tend to see?
我的意思是，两者都有。
I mean, it tends to be a little bit of both.
我的意思是，我们目前可能更偏向直接面向消费者，但我不认为这反映了真正想做这些事情的人的数量。
I mean, I'd say we're probably currently skewed towards direct to consumer, but I wouldn't say that that is a reflection of the number of people that want to actually do these things.
我认为这就是我们今天所处的状态。
I think that's just where we've got to today.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为有很多情况，我们最大的客户之一实际上在同时做这两者。
I think there's a lot of cases where actually, one of our biggest customers is kinda doing both.
他们是一个直接面向消费者的平台，但同时也拥有类似学校这样的B2B2C领域，在那里我们提供的功能与面向消费者的部分相似，但略有不同，因为我们将其与学生的学校和机构联系起来。
They're a direct to consumer platform, but then they also have, like, a school, almost like b to b to c area where we're doing similar features as the direct to consumer, but slightly differently because we're tying it in with people's schools and their institutions.
所以两者都有，我想这么说。
So both really, I would say.
这真的很有趣。
That's really interesting.
我的意思是，我们一直在与许多不同的教育科技公司交谈，他们正越来越多地尝试这种B2B2C模式的各种变体。
I mean, we've been talking to a number of different EdTech companies that are increasingly trying different variations of that b to b to c models.
我们刚刚发布了一篇对Prodigy Learning负责人的采访。
We just put out an interview with the head of Prodigy Learning.
这是一个巨大的教育科技成功案例，他们的模式正是如此。
That's a massive EdTech success, and their model is exactly that.
对学校免费，但由家长和家庭付费，然后他们进行整合。
It's free to schools and then paid for parents and families, but then they tie in.
你在学校里做的事情可以影响家庭中的情况，你的账户在某种程度上是统一的。
It's basically what you're doing in school can change what's happening at home, and your account is somewhat unified.
这是一种非常有趣的方式来构建业务，并且对他们来说取得了极好的效果。
And it's just a really interesting approach to sort of building a business, and it's worked incredibly well for them.
我们也看到Epic也采用了这种方式。
We've seen Epic did that as well.
所以我非常喜欢这一点，我认为在联合结构中引入游戏化和类似机制特别有力量。
So I I love that, and I think it's really interesting, the idea of gamification and that kind of mechanism in a joint structure seems particularly powerful.
是的。
Yeah.
还有很多可以做的事情。
There's lots more you can do.
直接面向消费者可能会很棘手，因为很难知道如何将人们连接起来，因为他们很可能彼此不认识。
Direct to consumers can be tricky because it's hard to know how to join people up because they probably don't know each other.
但在学校环境中，这一点就很明确了。
But in a school setting, it's obvious.
你可以设置一个排行榜，但还可以按年级、按学校或按机构来划分。
You just have a leaderboard, but then you actually have it per year group, you have it per school or per institution.
这样一来，你就有了之前没有的社区机制，这种机制在消费者端更难构建，但我们也在努力开发相关工具。
Then suddenly you've got this kind of community mechanic that you didn't really have before that is more difficult to create on the consumer side, but we're trying to build tools for that as well.
但确实，我刚才提到的最大客户刚刚推出了联赛功能，按学校进行划分，他们还希望按地理位置进一步细分。
But yeah, the biggest customer I just mentioned just released the leagues feature, which is breaking down by school, and they wanna break it down by location.
比如，伦敦的学校可以与其他伦敦的学校竞争，而香港的学校则可以与其他香港的学校竞争。
So, like, schools in London can compete with other schools in London, but then schools in Hong Kong can compete with other schools in Hong Kong.
所以，是的，在学校端还有很多可以拓展的空间。
So, yeah, there's there's tons more you can do in the school side as well.
是的。
Yeah.
提到积分榜，我想引出一个问题。
So mentioning the leagues, I think, begs a question.
当人们想到游戏化时，根据听众的背景不同，他们可能对它非常了解。
You know, when people think of gamification, they probably depending on any listener's background, they may know a lot about it.
他们可能使用过游戏化。
They may have used it.
他们可能自己开发过游戏化。
They may have built it themselves.
他们可能在过去几年里听过这个术语偶尔被提及。
They may have heard about it as a phrase passing by over the last number of years.
但当你定义游戏化时，你觉得核心机制有哪些？
But when you define gamification, what would you say are some of the core mechanisms?
我听你提到过连续签到、徽章、积分榜和积分赛。
I've heard you mention streaks, badges, leaderboards, and leagues.
还有其他的吗？
Are there others in there?
你能简单为那些对游戏化机制不太了解的人解释一下，这些机制各自是什么，以及它们如何推动用户参与吗？
Can you just break down quickly for those who may not feel like they have a total grip on how the gamified mechanics work about what each of these are and how they drive user engagement?
是的。
Yeah.
我们还没谈到的还有很多，我相信在未来十二个月里也会陆续涉及。
There's tons more that we haven't got to yet, which I'm sure we'll get to in the next twelve months as well.
但没错，比如说成就系统，它实际上是认可个人的成功。
But yeah, so I mean, you think of like an achievements feature, it's really recognizing personal success.
你会给完成特定任务的人颁发成就，可能是一次性完成，也可能是多次完成，并且这些成就应该与你认为能帮助他们获得最佳结果的行为相一致。
So you would award an achievement to somebody that completed a certain task, maybe one time or multiple times, and it should be aligned with the actions that you think will lead that person to having the best outcome.
比如在教育领域，如果是视频平台，就可以鼓励他们观看100个视频、10个视频或50个视频。
So if it's education, it might be a video platform, getting them to watch 100 videos or 10 videos, 50 videos.
你可以设置这些不同的里程碑，让人们在前进过程中逐步解锁这些成就，这自然与他们想要的结果保持一致。
You can have these different milestones, and getting people to unlock those messages as they go is naturally aligned with the outcome that they want.
因此，成就系统是一种不错的运用方式。
So that can be a nice way of using achievements.
连续打卡是一种保持一致性的机制。
Streaks are kind of like a consistency mechanic.
也就是说，重复做同一件事多次。
So it's doing the same thing multiple times.
它可以是每日、每周，有时甚至是每月的频率。
It could be on a daily cadence or a weekly cadence, sometimes a monthly cadence.
这取决于具体使用场景，但我们支持所有这些不同的选项。
It kind of depends on the use case, but we kind of support all those different options.
对于用户留存也非常有效。
Really good for retention as well.
但有时它们也可能产生负面影响。
But sometimes they can have a negative impact as well.
因此你必须平衡好，确保它真正与用户期望的结果一致，而不是因为你看到Duolingo这么做了就盲目添加额外的东西，这样说你能明白吗？
So you have to balance the, again, make sure it's, again, aligned with what the user actually wants as the outcome and not this extra thing you're just adding because you've seen Duolingo do it, if that makes sense.
排行榜显然是对用户的排名，但同样，关键在于如何实现和操作。
Leaderboards are obviously a ranking of users, but, again, it comes down to implementation and how you actually do that.
所以，如果你有一个百万用户的排行榜，实际上可能只有前100名用户会真正参与。
So if you had a leaderboard of a million people, for example, it's really only going to ever engage the top 100 maybe.
而其他人都会觉得：我根本不可能上榜，那还努力干嘛？
And the rest of them are really like, well, I'm never really make it, so what's the point of even trying?
而且还有大量用户处于底部位置。
And there's people in the bottom.
但想象一下，你登录你的复习平台，发现自己排在第3,000,004名。
But imagine you log into your revision platform and you see that you're position 3,000,004.
这很可能会让你彻底失去继续学习的动力。
This is going to probably demotivate you from even wanting to even learn again.
因此，我们实际上将排行榜限制在1000人以内。
So we actually limit our leaderboards to 1,000 people.
你无法创建超过这个人数的排行榜。
You actually can't create one more than that.
我们鼓励用户寻找用户之间的共同点，将他们划分为更小的排行榜，并建立这种小型、更紧密关联的排行榜体系。
And we encourage people to try and discover something that's common amongst users and break them down into smaller leaderboards and then have that system of running smaller, more connected leaderboards.
但，是的，这就是排行榜。
But, yeah, that's leaderboards.
这就是我们目前所达到的阶段。
That's kind of where we've got to now.
我们想做更多得多的事情，所以我们正在考虑挑战赛。
We wanna do way, way more, so we're thinking of challenges.
这些可以是个人挑战。
These can be personal challenges.
比如，每天都会有的任务。
So it could be, like, on a daily basis.
这些都是你今天应该来完成的事情。
These are things that you should come in and do today.
而社区挑战对我们来说也很有趣，即让平台上的所有人——无论是特定学校内的用户，还是面向直接消费者的全体用户——共同朝着同一个目标努力。
Or community challenges is quite interesting to us of actually having everybody on the platform, whether that's in a particular school or across the board for direct to consumer, working towards the same goal.
如果大家都达成了目标，你们就会获得奖励，或者得到一些免费的东西。
And if you all get there, you will get a prize or you will get something for free.
所以，比如这个月我们一起来读一百万字，而你可能有十万用户，每个人都可以参与。
So it could be, let's all read a million words this month, and maybe you've got, you know, a 100,000 users and everybody can take part.
试图创造一种更社交化的体验，因为如果你想想学习者，传统课堂并不一定适用，但如果你考虑学习或自主学习的过程，它可能会非常孤独。
Trying to create this more social experience, because if you think of a learner, often classrooms don't necessarily apply here, but if you think of that learn or self learn journey, it could be pretty lonely.
作为平台的实际运营者，你会从整体上看到所有人。
Like, as people that actually operate the platforms, you see everybody in aggregate.
你会想，哦，我有三十万月活跃用户。
You think, Oh, I have 300,000 monthly active users.
这太棒了。
That's amazing.
但你忘了，这三十万人实际上是三十万个家庭，每个人都在独自做这些事。
But you forget that those are actually 300,000 houses of people sitting there and doing these things on their own.
你越能创造这些社交环境、社区挑战，或者更小的、彼此认识的群体，就能真正帮助到人们。
The more you can create these social environments, community challenges, or smaller, connected leader people actually know each other, then it can really benefit people.
我认为过去在游戏化方面，这一点有点被忽略了，只是简单地认为，哦，是的，我们加个排行榜就行了。
And I think that's been slightly missed in the past of gamification, really just, oh, yeah, we'll add a leaderboard.
没问题。
That's fine.
已经完成了。
That's done.
把这件事从列表中去掉。
Take that off the list.
然后你就忘记了用户实际体验的本质，越能让它更相关，就越好。
Then you forget what the actual user is of the experience of that, and the more you can do to make it more relevant, the better.
所以我们正在努力加强这一点。
So we're trying to kind of power that more.
这很有力量。
That's powerful.
你刚才顺带提到了段位。
And then you mentioned leagues in passing.
这是另一种社交功能，对吧？人们在共同合作。
That's another sort of social feature, right, where people are working together?
是的
Yeah.
排行榜也很有意思，因为它们能自然地根据能力将人们分组，而不是基于地理位置或朋友圈，而是纯粹依据能力。
Leagues can be interesting as well because they're a natural way of kind of bucketing up people by ability, not necessarily by location or peer group, but natural on ability.
他们不一定需要互相认识。
They don't necessarily have to know each other.
你会知道，你旁边的人和你处于相似的阶段。
You kinda know that this person next to you is at a similar stage to you.
他们可能学习了相同的时间，或者和你正在学习同一个模块。
They might have been learning for the same amount of time or they're kind of on the same module as you.
所以如果你能加入一个排行榜，它可以基于其他概念，比如经验值或某种积分系统。
So if you can add a league, it could be based on some other concept like an XP or some kind of points thing.
但核心是创造一种连接感，同时让你能够随着进展上下浮动，从而持续了解自己的状态。
But really just trying to create some element of connection and then having the ability to move up and down as you go keeps you in touch with how you're doing.
当然，排名下降并不理想，但你必须在某种程度上平衡这个系统。
Now, obviously, moving down isn't amazing, but you you have to kind of balance the system in some ways, though.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，你提到的社会挑战、积分榜，以及许多消费科技和教育科技整体上可能具有高度原子化的特点，这一点很到位。
I mean, I think that point you're making about social challenges, leagues, the idea that a lot of consumer tech in general and EdTech is part of that can be very atomizing.
对吧？
Right?
它可能有点自我中心。
It can be a little solipsistic.
就像一个人和系统来回互动，而传统的游戏化有时甚至会强化这种感觉。
It's like a person and a system going back and forth, and gamification traditionally sometimes even enhances that feeling.
就像是你独自一人在系统内攀爬阶梯。
It's like it's you climbing that ladder inside a system alone.
但这些社交功能，我认为为它增添了一个非常令人兴奋的维度，因为它们表明你并不孤单。
But these social features, I think, add a really exciting dimension to it because they showcase that you're not alone.
你根本一点都不孤单。
You're not at all alone.
对吧？
Right?
你身处众多有着相似学习目标、相似能力、相似各种抱负的人之中。
You're you're there amongst many, many other people with similar learning goals, similar abilities, similar aspirations for various things.
我认为这是一个强大的功能。
And I think that's a powerful feature.
当我思考游戏化的未来时，你是否认为社交学习、社会认同和可见性将成为下一代游戏化的核心？
I'm curious when you think about that future of gamification, do you feel that social learning and social proof and visibility is really gonna be core to what the next generation of gamification might look like?
我觉得是的。
I think so.
我认为这可能是我们最终会走向的方向。
I think that's probably where we're gonna be taking it anyway.
它增添了一层我認為人們很難輕易觸及的東西。
It just adds this extra layer that I don't think people can easily tap into.
我认为他们太专注于学习体验了，这本无可厚非，但要退一步，拥有创造这种体验的工具包实际上非常复杂。
I think they are so focused on the learning experience as they should be, but it's difficult to step back and have the toolkit for creating that kind of experience is actually quite complex.
所以，要想明白如何围绕这些类型的挑战建立一个社区，简直让人望而生畏。
So to kind of fathom how would I build a community around these kind of challenges is kind of daunting.
所以人们根本就不会去理会这件事，我会在某个时候再处理。
So people just kind of don't bother with the thing I will get to at some point.
但如果你有一个工具包，能轻松地将人们通过排行榜或挑战连接起来，只需简单的集成就能运行，那么我希望看到更多平台采用这种方式，结果就是每个人都会更享受使用这些平台，并从中获得更多信息。
But if you had a toolkit that just let you connect people in those ways with the leaderboards or challenges and kind of just run it with a very simple integration, then I'd hope that we'd see a lot more platforms doing those kind of things, and the outcome would be that everybody enjoys using these platforms a lot more and gets a lot more from them.
所以，这正是我们希望看到的。
So that's kind of what we wanna see.
是的。
Yeah.
而且，正如你提到的，它与各种教育应用场景也完美契合。
And it also, as you mentioned, dovetails really nicely with different types of educational use cases.
如果面对的是个人用户，他们可以与其他用户建立联系。
If you have individual consumers, they can connect with others.
但如果你是在学校、某个城市或学区等环境中工作，那么自然就会产生这样的想法：比如，好吧。
But if you're working within a school or within a particular city or district or anything like that, then you have these natural the idea of, like, okay.
我所在的学区有一个本月阅读一百万单词的社会挑战。
My particular school district has a social challenge to read a million words this month.
每当我阅读任何内容时，我都在为这个目标贡献力量。
And every time I read anything, I'm contributing to it and adding to that.
如果我们达到了一百万，整个学区都会受益。
And if we get a million, the great thing happens to the whole district.
这真是一个令人兴奋、极具激励性，同时也非常具有社会公益性的目标。
Like, that's a really exciting, very motivating, but also very sort of pro social goal to approach.
是的。
Yeah.
而且它们也可以成为强大的增长引擎。
And they can also be great growth engines as well.
因为如果你有一个社区挑战，这将是一个巨大的营销机会。
Because if you have this community challenge, like, that is a huge marketing opportunity to know.
确实如此。
That's true.
如果你是直接面向消费者的，比如伦敦这个月正在举办一个活动，这意味着我们需要阅读一千万个单词。
If you're a direct to consumer, like, London is running an event this month, which means we can need to read 10,000,000 words.
突然间，会有大量的人涌入，他们想参与进来，还会分享给朋友，说：‘你不能当个快递员吗？’
Suddenly you get all these influx and people that want to Oh, they're sharing it with their friends and saying, I couldn't you be a dispatch.
让我们一起努力达成这个目标吧。
Let's share it when trying to get to this goal.
或者看起来我们可能会落后一点，所以我们需要拉上我的朋友们一起参与这个挑战。
Or it looks like we're going to be a bit behind, so we need to get my friends involved so that I get this challenge.
然后，你就会开始推荐别人加入。
Then suddenly you're referring people.
所以这里面有太多的角度可以切入。
So there's so many angles to it.
这真的不仅仅是一个提升参与度的事情。
It's really not just an engagement thing.
一旦你采取这种整体性的方法，它就会融入你所做的一切之中。
Once you take this kind of holistic approach, it becomes part of everything you do, really.
我完全同意。
I totally agree.
我认为你的Trophy商业模式中有一件非常有趣的事情，那就是它基于一个相当独特的洞察：多年来，教育、健康及其他领域的许多不同平台都曾以各种方式独立尝试过游戏化功能，测试不同的功能，但这些尝试始终是孤立进行的。
One thing that I think is really intriguing about your business model with Trophy is that it's sort of predicated on, I think, a really interesting insight, which is that many different types of platforms in education and wellness and others have been sort of approaching gamification features on their own for many years and on and off in different ways, at different features, testing them in product, but it's really something that's happened over and over again in isolation.
我猜想，人们在尝试过程中可能会遇到一些普遍的陷阱。
And I imagine that there's probably some relatively common pitfalls that people hit.
你提到其中一个可能是需要将游戏化平台与A/B测试或优化平台进行连接，这中间可能存在摩擦。
You mentioned maybe one of them is the measurement is having to connect a gamification platform to an AB testing or a sort of optimization platform.
这种摩擦确实存在。
There can be friction there.
但我很好奇，除了这个之外，你是否还见过其他陷阱？这些陷阱是否在你创立Trophy之前就已出现，或者在你与Trophy客户合作的过程中遇到过？
But I'm curious if there are other pitfalls that you've seen either before starting Trophy to leading you to start it or in your work with customers with Trophy.
比如，他们会不会说：‘我们试过徽章，但因为X、Y、Z的原因失败了。’
Like, do they say, oh, we tried badges, but it fell apart because of x y z.
或者：‘我们试过排行榜。’
Or we tried to do a leaderboard.
我们尝试过一些社交化游戏化功能，但无法维持下去，或者无法实现。
We tried to do some kind of social gamification, but we couldn't maintain it or we couldn't build it.
或者我只是好奇，有哪些障碍造成了这种机会，促使我们推出一个功能完备的基础设施平台。
Or I'm just curious where the hurdles have been that have created that really interesting opportunity to come in with a fully fleshed out infrastructure platform.
是的。
Yes.
连续打卡可能是一个值得提及的例子，因为这是大多数人最熟悉、也最想实现的功能。
Streaks is probably a good one to mention because it's the one that, like, a lot of people are most familiar with and one that people want to implement most.
连续打卡效果很好。
And streaks can be great.
它们可以非常激励人，但当你中断了连续记录时，也可能产生相当大的挫败感，甚至产生适得其反的效果。
They can be really motivating, but they could also be quite demotivating when you lose the streak and almost have the negative effect impact that you want.
所以很多人会想，哦，是的，我们现在已经中断了连续记录。
And so a lot of people just think, oh, yeah, we've we've had a deadly streak now.
我们来看看会发生什么。
Let's see what happens.
然后突然间，这个功能在一个星期内效果很好。
And then suddenly, like, it's great for a month.
但接着人们开始忙起来，或者忘记了，或者普遍来说太忙了，于是就中断了连续记录。
And then people, like, start to get busy or they forget or they people just are busy generally, they just lose their streaks.
然后他们突然发现这个机制开始失效，就像掉下悬崖一样。
Then suddenly they see this kind of cliff where it starts to not work.
于是他们就会想：那我们现在该怎么办？
And they're like, Well, what do we do now?
我们花了很长时间才搭建起这个系统。
We just spent ages building this thing.
它确实曾经起过作用，但只维持了一小段时间。
And that was not really It was working for some time, but not a little bit.
所以你必须不断进化这个想法。
So you have to evolve this idea.
因此，我们设计了一种功能，让用户可以开启‘冻结’或‘暂停’选项，在你设定的周期内，系统会自动为你保留一次或两次机会，让你知道：我已经有30天的连续记录了，虽然昨天差点中断，但平台给了我一点宽容。
And so we built in a way for people to kind of turn on this idea of like a freezes or a pauses kind of feature where give the user something where you can automatically save them once or twice on this particular cadence that you want just to give them a little bit more back and say, I have a thirty day streak, but I almost missed it yesterday, but the platform kind of gave me a little bit of leeway.
展开剩余字幕（还有 320 条）
然后你就把那个陡坡稍微 flattening 了一点。
And then you've kind of flattened out that cliff a little bit.
还有很多类似这样的方法可以尝试。
There's all sorts of stuff like that that you can do.
这又需要更多的开发工作。
Again, it's it's more dev work.
需要花更多时间回到产品团队，并从其他项目中抽离资源。
It's more time going back to the product team and taking results away from other stuff.
所以对我们来说，这只是一个开关。
So for us, it's just a switch.
你只需打开它，然后决定给每个人多少次机会。
You just turn it on and decide how many you want to give to people.
它开箱即用，效果很好。
It just kind of works out the box.
个人打卡记录也是如此。
And the same is true with, like, a personal streak as well.
这是我们正在考虑的一个问题，即人们会实施一个全平台的系统，规定每天都要保持打卡，所有人都要用这个功能。
It's something we're thinking about where people implement a platform wide system of this is a daily streak, this is how everybody's gonna use this feature.
但他们又忘了，真正学习的是个体，每个人的学习方式不同，使用平台的方式也不同。
But they forget, again, it's individuals that learn in different ways or they use platforms in different ways.
也许有些人喜欢在周五和周六学习，而有些人则完全不这么做。
Maybe some people like to study on a Friday and a Saturday, or some people just don't.
他们选择休息，而在周日学习。
They take that time off and they study on a Sunday.
但突然间，他们被这种非常刻板的平台使用方式所吸引。
But suddenly, they're now drawn to this common way of using the platform, which is quite rigid.
所以这是另一个陷阱，我们打算通过制定个性化的打卡计划来解决，比如我的个人打卡应该安排在工作日，而不是周末，或者我只想在周六学习。
So that's another pitfall and something that we're going to be approaching with like a streak schedule and say that my personal streak should be through the week and not on the weekend, or I just want to study on a Saturday.
然后你可以让用户坚持自己认为最有效的方式。
And then you can hold people to their idea of what works for them.
这些就是关于打卡功能的一些相关考虑。
So those are some of the things around around streaks in particular.
这很有道理。
That makes a lot of sense.
你知道吗，结合你之前提到的排行榜，当有人在排行榜上排名非常低时，这可能会让人失去动力。
You know, combining that with what you said earlier about leaderboards, how they can be demotivating when somebody shows up very low on a leaderboard.
因此，你需要进行细分，建立相对封闭的排行榜。
And so you need to subsegment and have leaderboards that are relatively contained.
我觉得，无论是刚才说的排行榜，还是你举的关于每日打卡的例子，我听到的是，人们会设计这些游戏化功能，但可能没有意识到其中某些元素实际上是双刃剑，可能会产生反效果。
I feel like, you know, what I'm hearing in in both that case and with this streak, you know, example you're giving is that people will build the gamification features, but maybe not realize that there are these elements of them that can actually be double edged swords that can be a little bit, you know, backsliding.
如果使用方式不当，它们反而会让人失去动力。
They can be demotivating if if they're used in certain ways.
于是这就变成了一种持续的优化机会：你得说，我们做了打卡功能，但现在我们还得加入暂停机制，现在又要设计个人打卡，现在又要创造各种各样的东西。
And then it becomes this almost like a continuous development opportunity where you have to say, you know, we created streaks, but now we have to create pauses, and now we have to create personal streaks, now we have to create all these things.
当你来到像Trophy这样的平台时，它集中精力专门处理这个问题，而不是像其他平台那样，既要处理打卡，又要兼顾产品其他所有部分，你就能更深入地学习、优化，并理清这些细微差别，然后把这些经验提供给所有人，而不是让每个人都各自摸索，重复同样的教训——我们做了打卡，但遇到了问题。
And, you know, when you come to a platform like Trophy that's doing this in a centralized way and focusing purely on that rather than on, oh, we have to do that, but we also have to do all the other parts of our product, You get to learn and optimize and sort of figure out all those nuances and then provide them for everybody rather than, again, atomizing, you know, everybody having to learn on their own the same lessons of we did streaks, but we came up with a problem.
每次有人中断打卡，就会崩溃，然后出现各种问题。
Every time somebody breaks a streak, they fall apart and x y z.
所以我觉得这非常有洞察力。
So I think it's really insightful.
这个想法，我不知道你是否用过这些词，但我把它理解为‘游戏化即服务’。
This idea of you know, I don't think you use these words, but I think of it as gamification as a service.
这种能够提供一套现成的参与度和留存机制，并能以各种方式定制、适应任何平台希望推动的行为、日程和节奏，是一个非常创新的想法。
This idea of, like, being able to maybe you do, but offering this suite of engagement and retention and mechanics out of the box that can be customized in all of these ways, could be tailored in all these ways to exactly the types of behaviors and schedules and cadences that that any platform is trying to drive is a really innovative idea.
我们还没谈到的一点，我认为这是游戏化的阿喀琉斯之踵。
So one thing we haven't talked about yet, and I think it's it's a little bit of the Achilles' heel of gamification.
我对那些热爱游戏化、长期从事这一领域的人会这么说。
I'll say this to somebody who who loves gamification, has been in it for a long time.
你知道，游戏化有时被批评为过于关注参与度，只在乎让人上线。
You know, gamification has been criticized at times for being really focused on engagement, on getting people to show up.
对吧？
Right?
你之前提到过多邻国。
And you mentioned Duolingo before.
人们可以在Duolingo上保持一千天的连续打卡记录。
It's like people can have a thousand day streak on Duolingo.
这是否意味着他们就能像母语者一样说意大利语或普通话呢？
Does that mean that they can actually speak Italian or speak Mandarin like that?
因为，正如你提到的，人们真正去那里是为了这个目的。
Because, you know, as you mentioned, that's what people are really there to do.
对吧？
Right?
他们去那里是为了学习一门语言。
They're there to learn a language.
他们去那里是为了拓展自己的知识。
They're there to expand their knowledge.
所以，有时游戏化因为奖励了——在很多情况下，本质上是打卡行为。
So sometimes gamification, because it rewards, you know, attendance, basically, in many cases.
有时它也会奖励其他行为，但很多时候奖励的都是与真正学习关系不大的东西。
Sometimes it rewards behavior too, but it rewards it rewards things that are sort of tangential to the actual learning in many cases.
我很想知道你是如何看待这种动机与真正掌握之间的张力的。
And I'm curious how you think about that, that tension between motivation and actual mastery.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为人们从Duolingo那里得到了这种观念。
I think people tend to get the idea from Duolingo.
作为Duolingo的用户，我同意这一点。
I do agree as a Duolingo user.
我曾在不同时间学习过意大利语，但我觉得自己并没有比刚开始时进步多少。
I've been learning Italian at various points, and I don't think I'm any further ahead than I was when I started.
你知道，有很多人会从这种体验中‘毕业’，或者有稍微好一点的进展。
You know, there's many people that kinda graduate from from that experience or something a bit more.
但我想说的是，在这种情况下，真正起作用的是他们教你学习语言的方式，而不是游戏化的元素。
But I would say it's down to, in that case, the actual way that they teach you how to learn the language rather than the the game aspects.
我认为很容易用一种笼统的眼光看待所有使用游戏化机制的平台，说它们全都不起作用，这可能有点过于极端了。
And I think it's easy to kind of paint all platforms that therefore use gamification with a broad brush and say that none of this works is maybe a little bit too far.
我认为更重要的是与真实用户保持联系，比如给他们做一些与他们使用平台根本目的无关的事情加分，这并不会给他们带来任何好处。
I would say that it's more about keeping in touch with the actual user, like giving them points for doing something that's totally unrelated to why they're even on the platform is not gonna have any benefit for for them.
这可能对你有好处，也许吧，但这么做有什么意义呢？
It might have a benefit for you, maybe, but, I mean, what's the point of of doing that?
归根结底，用户留存和参与度来自于人们真正享受使用平台，并从中获得收获，甚至在某种程度上改变他们的生活。
It's not because at the end of the day, retention engagement comes from when people actually enjoy using the platforms and actually get something from it, and it changes their life in some way.
所以要为这个结果做优化，而不是想着‘我们能不能通过发一条通知，把日活跃用户提升2%’这种事。
So optimize for that outcome, not for the kind of, oh, can we get daily active users up by 2% just by sending this notification?
如果你能向人们证明，使用这个平台确实有效，他们就会持续使用，而这些附加功能只是对你们已有的体验起到锦上添花的作用。
You know, you'll get very consistent usage if you can show people that using the platform works, and these things just kind of add to the the experience that you have already.
这大概就是我想说的。
And that's kind of what I would say.
其次，如果你想让人们学习，就必须吸引他们的注意力。
And secondly, like, you have to engage people if you want them to learn.
如果他们不参与，正如我们所说，注意力是非常宝贵的。
If if they're not going to or attend as we said, attention is very expensive.
所以你确实需要让别人感受到，这也可以是一段有趣的体验。
So you do kind of need to show people that it can be a fun experience as well.
很多时候，他们可能需要学习这些东西。
Oftentimes, know they might need to learn this thing.
也许是基本功之类的，但你也得激励他们去完成这些事。
Maybe it's footwork or something, but you have to also motivate them to do that thing.
否则，他们肯定学不会。
Otherwise, they're definitely not gonna learn.
完全正确。
Totally.
这其实有两个方面。
It kind of is there's two sides to it.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，参与本身就是从任何教育科技产品或平台中真正学习的基础。
I mean, showing up is a foundational aspect of actually learning from any EdTech product or platform.
所以它构成了基础。
So it predicates it.
这显然是其中的一部分。
It it's obviously part of it.
而且我同意你的观点。
And and I agree with you.
我觉得Duolingo，你知道的，我们并不想说Duolingo的坏话。
Think that Duolingo you know, we don't wanna I'm not trying to say terrible things about Duolingo.
我认为Duolingo有很多很棒的优势。
I don't I think Duolingo has a lot of amazing benefits.
我也写过文章，指出游戏化在很多方面已被证明是一套非常有效的机制。
And I think I've written about how it's really proven out in many ways that gamification is is a meaningful set of mechanisms in a big way.
但我确实觉得你说得对。
But I do think you're right.
它有时会成为形式大于内容的代表，人们并不总是确定学习效果是否真实存在，这在某种程度上让游戏化背上了坏名声。
It sort of sometimes becomes a little bit of a poster child for style over substance in some ways, and people are not always sure if it if the learning is really there and it sort of gives gamification a bad name in some ways.
我认为你在这方面绝对是正确的。
I think the you're you're you're definitely right about that.
我想再跟你探讨一下这个话题的另一个方面，那就是，我认为游戏化中一个非常有趣的地方是，你刚才提到，如果你奖励那些不在核心学习路径上的行为，那可能会有点奇怪。
One other aspect of this I'd love to ask you about, which is that, you know, one of the things that I think is very interesting about gamification, you just mentioned one aspect of this is that, know, if you start rewarding behaviors that are not on the core learning path, then it can be kinda strange.
对吧？
Right?
比如，你来到一个教育科技平台，如果你打开很多菜单，找到一些隐藏的星星，就能获得五星级徽章或十星级徽章，但你会想：这根本不是人们来这里的目的。
If it's it's like, oh, you're coming to a an EdTech platform, and if you, you know, if you open up lots of menus and find little hidden stars somewhere, you get the five star badge and the 10 star badge, and you're like, well, that's not why anybody's there.
人们不是为了打开菜单来的。
It's not to open menus.
人们也不是为了探索平台来的。
It's not to explore the platform.
人们是为了真正地学习，或者举个随机的例子。
It's to it's to actually learn or just as a random example.
但反过来又是什么情况呢？
But what's the flip side of that?
我想，我的问题是，有没有办法把真正的学习成果与成就、段位或连续打卡联系起来？
I think, you know, my question is, like, is there a way to actually tie the true learning outcomes to achievements or to leagues or to streaks?
比如，你在这组化学知识上有了真正有意义的进步。
Like, oh, you actually improved in a really meaningful way on this particular set of chemistry.
所以你才获得了这个成就。
That's why you get the achievement.
这种做法我们并不常看到。
That's something we don't always see that often.
我很想知道你是怎么看待这个问题的。
I'm curious how you think about it.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，在很多学习场景中，你想要的结果可能与特定的成绩挂钩，或者与一些实际的东西相关。
I mean, in a lot of learning, there are kind of you know, the outcomes you want might be tied to particular grades, or it could be tied to something actually real.
比如语言学习，就有非常明确的阶段要求，比如在这个阶段之后，下一个阶段是x。
Like, language learning, for example, has pretty clear requirements of, you know, at this stage and the next stage is is x.
没错。
Exactly.
因此，将这些成就直接与这些目标挂钩效果会很好。
So tying it directly to these things can work pretty well.
而且这种方法也适用于许多其他领域。
And that is applicable across a lot of different sectors as well.
我的意思是，不只是教育科技，医疗领域也是如此。
Mean, not just EdTech, but health as well.
通常，你是在追踪非常具体的东西。
Often, you're tracking very specific things.
可能是你希望持续达成的宏量营养素或微量营养素。
It could be macronutrients, micronutrients you actually want to hit consistently.
因此，将成就直接与人们真正了解并关心的目标挂钩，比像你所说的那样，只是在应用里某个不相关的地方寻找奖励，要合理得多。
So tying it directly to the things that people actually know about and therefore makes way more sense than just tying it to, like you said, finding something in the app somewhere that you, you know, is not really related to why you're there.
所以，是的，如果你的使用场景中确实有可以直接关联的目标，我强烈建议你这么做。
So, yeah, that is definitely a good way of if you have got something like that in your in your use case that you can directly tie to, then I would definitely encourage people to do that.
所以这可能是现实中真实存在的成就，比如你连续一周都把血压控制得很好。
So it could be something authentic in the world, like, you know, you've kept your blood pressure down for a straight week.
这是一项成就。
That's an achievement.
对吧？
Right?
这很棒。
That's great.
或者它也可以与一些本来就奖励学习的既有体系挂钩，比如语言等级、成绩或标准化考试分数。
Or it could be something tied to an existing structure that actually does reward learning, like language levels or or grades or standardized test scores.
对吧？
Right?
你可以很容易想象一个考试辅导平台，它会奖励你不断提高的模拟考试成绩。
And you can imagine easily a test prep platform where, you know, it's rewarding you for getting better and better scores on your practice test.
这直接契合了用户使用平台的目的。
Like, that's directly aligned to what somebody's there for.
这很有道理。
That makes a lot of sense.
这真的很有趣，因为我特别欣赏Trophy的一点是，你很早就提到过这一点。
And it's really interesting because I one thing I I admire about Trophy is that you are very you mentioned this early on.
在很多方面，你对人们实际设定的行为和使用方式都持中立态度。
You're very agnostic in many ways, or you can be agnostic about what people are actually setting up the behaviors and usage to be.
这是一个平台，你可以围绕任何特定类型的使用来设置连续打卡、成就、徽章、排行榜或联赛。
It's a platform that you can do streaks or achievements or badges or leaderboards or or leagues around any particular type of use.
但我想象中，你之前提到过，当人们带着这套游戏化工具包来时，他们可能并不清楚自己真正想奖励哪些行为。
But I imagine, you know, you mentioned early on, like, when people come and they have this toolkit of gamification, they may or may not realize which types of behaviors they're trying to reward.
而你所服务的中心化平台，刚刚提到就有30个不同的平台在使用Trophy。
And your centralized experiencing many different you just mentioned 30 different platforms using Trophy.
我猜想你一定积累了大量洞察，可以提供给用户。
I imagine you have a lot of insights that you can provide.
我肯定，这让你在咨询层面有了更深入的提升，非常有趣。
I'm sure that that has been really interesting sort of going up the consultative stack a little bit.
当你与新客户合作时，他们会说，好的。
And as you're working with a new customer, they say, okay.
等等。
Wait.
我们可以做所有这些事情，但我们应该如何做这些呢？
We can do all these things, but how should we do all these things?
应该鼓励哪些行为？
What should be the behaviors?
阈值应该设为多少？
What should be the thresholds?
我们的排行榜上应该有多少人？
How many people should be on our leaderboard?
你能够向他们提供越来越明确的见解。
You have more and more defined opinions that you can provide to them.
我想知道这在实际中是什么样子的。
I'm curious what that looks like in practice.
这算是客户入职流程吗？
Is that, like, a customer onboarding?
这是平台中的一个良好默认设置吗？
Is that a good default in the platform?
你如何帮助引导人们遵循游戏化最佳实践？
Like, how do you help nudge people towards the best practices of gamification?
是的。
Yeah.
这是这些因素的结合。
It's a combination of those things.
你刚才提到这是一个不错的入职流程。
You just mentioned it's a decent onboarding.
很多时候，平台会把工具藏起来，先做咨询，但我们试图反过来做：先给所有人提供工具，然后让他们自己问该怎么用。
A lot of times, platforms will kind of hide the tools away and then do the consulting part first, but we try to flip that around and say, give everybody the tools and then let them ask kind of how to use it.
因此，我们会指导人们如何做到这一点。
And so we do guide people on how to do that.
我会和人们进行通话。
I do calls with people.
他们经常注册。
Often they sign up.
他们看到后，觉得可以。
They see that, okay.
这个功能会奏效的。
This is gonna this is gonna work.
我给那些工程师展示过。
I've shown it to the indigent engineers.
他们觉得这是一个不错的平台。
They seem like it looks like a good platform to use.
然后他们会来找我说：好了，我们现在准备集成，但具体该怎么做？你们建议我们怎么设置才最好？
And then they'll come to say, okay, now we're ready to integrate, but how do we actually what would you suggest the best setup is for us?
所以我们就会和他们进行这些通话，向他们展示我们内置的各种合理默认设置，帮助他们正确地使用这些功能。
And so we'll do those calls with people and then kind of show them the various sensible defaults that we've added in to help them guide them and use those in the right way.
正如我所说，我们不允许用户创建超过1000人的排行榜，因为那样会带来糟糕的体验。
So like I said, we don't let people create leaderboards longer than 1,000 people because if you were to do that, it would be a bad experience.
所以我们尝试鼓励用户创建人群组，找到大家的共同点，然后围绕这些共同点建立排行榜。
So we try and then encourage people to create these groups of people, find something that people have in common, and then create leaderboards around that.
我们也在Slack上有一些客户，和他们保持着持续的互动。
And we have customers in Slack as well that we have, like, con continuous back and forth with.
我们会每月和其中一些客户进行电话会议，回顾数据分析等内容。
We have, like, monthly calls with some of them to review the analytics and stuff.
因此，我们在实际操作中相当主动，尽管从网站上看，平台似乎显得非常中立。
So we are quite, like, hands on as well, although the platform looks quite unopinionated from the from the website maybe.
也许我们需要做一些工作，来更好地传达我们所做的其他事情。
Maybe we need to do a bit of work to maybe try and communicate some of the other stuff that we do.
但我们确实努力兼顾这两方面，而且我认为这种做法会持续下去。
But, yeah, we try and do do both, and I think that that will stick around.
我希望随着我们的发展，这种模式也能不断扩展。
I'd like that to kind of scale with us as we go.
我认为这其中有区别。
I think there is a difference.
工具需要保持中立，因为你可以用多种方式实现各种不同的机制。
Like, the tools need to be unopinionated because you can do so many different there are so many different types of mechanics you can do in different ways.
但我们需要对什么最适合特定客户有明确的见解。
But then we need to be quite opinionated on, like, what's gonna be best for a particular customer.
所以某种程度上，我们确实采用了一种混合模式。
So we we do kind of have a hybrid model, I guess, in that way.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这很有道理。
I think it makes a lot of sense.
这是一种有趣的心理学现象。
It's one of these interesting it's psychology.
归根结底，游戏化就是以有意义的方式触动用户心理，并为他们提供可运作的结构。
I mean, at the end of the day, what gamification is is tapping into user psychology in meaningful ways and giving them structures in which to work.
心理学是那种你无法从一开始就总是预测出事物会如何影响用户心理或哪些用户的心理。
And psychology is something that is not you can't just always predict from the outset how things are gonna affect a user's psychology or which users.
我认为你举的个性化日程的例子很好，比如正常的连续打卡可能是每天一次，但这实际上可能完全不符合某些学习者的行为方式。
I I think your example of the personalized schedules, the idea of being like, well, a normal streak might be coming in every day, but that's actually maybe not at all how particular learners work.
他们可能每周才登录一次，因为他们正在为一年后的事情做准备，每周进行一次学习，而每日打卡根本行不通。
They might be coming in weekly because they're studying for something that's a year away, and they they do a weekly session, and that daily streak just doesn't work.
因此，这些关于如何匹配用户心理的真正洞察具有极其重要的影响。
So some of those realizations about how to match user psychology is is incredibly impactful.
我想象，你所提到的针对特定使用场景的咨询和配置，可能是这个平台成功的关键所在。
And I imagine that consultation, that configuration that you're sort of mentioning for particular use cases is probably a lot of the success of the platform.
另一个让我想到的是，关于任何特定的教育科技平台如何运用游戏化机制的咨询，似乎是一个非常适合人工智能的领域。
One other thing it brings to mind for me is that consultation about, you know, how any particular EdTech platform might use gamification feels like a potentially a ripe area for AI.
你可以看到人工智能能够介入并说：我运营的是这种类型的平台。
It's something you could see an AI being able to go in and say, I do this kind of platform.
我的用户是X、Y、Z。
My users are x y z.
我们有B2C和B2B2C的X Y Z场景，而AI工具可以基于Trophy语料库的数据，告诉你一些可能值得尝试的方案。
We have a b to c and a b to b to c x y z, and an AI tool saying, well, you know, from what we know from the Trophy corpus, here are some of the things you might wanna try.
对吧？
Right?
使用这种子集和这种行为模式设置一个小排行榜。
A a small leaderboard using this type of subset and this type of behavior.
我很好奇，我们是否能更广泛地讨论AI，但我也很想知道，类似AI向导这样的体验，未来是否会在Trophy中派上用场。
I'm I'm curious if that is something we could talk about AI more generally, but I'm curious if a sort of AI wizard kind of experience might be something that would be relevant for the future in Trophy.
是的。
Yeah.
这个想法我们之前也考虑过。
This is an idea we've had.
它就像一个向导，帮助你进行设置，完成一些我们可能更容易规模化配置的工作，而不是让每个有需求的人都去进行一对一的沟通。
It was like a a kind of wizard to help you set it up and do some of that more configuration that we might be able to scale a bit easier than having you know, people that want it will obviously do the the one to ones.
但对于那些根本不想和任何人交流、只想自己动手的长尾用户来说，这种功能会非常有用。
But for, like, the long tail of people that just kind of don't wanna speak to anyone and just wanna do it themselves, that would probably be quite useful.
是的。
Yeah.
所以这确实是个好主意。
So that that's actually a great idea.
我可能会把这个想法带回去落实。
I'll probably take that one away.
而且因为我们还有一个播客，会讨论这些话题，我们想到的是，可以把播客里所有的内容、所有的转录文本都
And also because we have a podcast as well where we kinda talk about these things, what we thought about is all the content that we have from that, all the transcripts about
完全对。
Totally.
不同平台上的用户使用情况，我们能否把这些数据输入模型，然后让用户与之对话？比如明天我们要和Polar Steps的产品经理交流，那是一个大型旅行应用。
The different platforms that people have is can we just feed that into a model and then let people have conversations with, you know, the PM at Polar Steps is what we're doing tomorrow, which is a big travel app.
上周我们采访了Lifetime的CEO，他们正在大规模做这些事，我们能否让使用者直接问他们：在这种情况下，你们当时是怎么做的？
The CEO of Lifetime we had on last week that are doing these things at scale, can we just kind of let them ask these people, well, what did you do when you're in this situation?
或者你们是如何提升专注力的？
Or how did you improve your attention?
然后这就是你在Trophy中设置它来实现相同或类似功能的方式。
And then this is how you would set that up in Trophy to kind of do the same thing or similar.
完全正确。
Totally.
我忘了提一下，但你也是一个播客主持人，你做的播客是关于用户参与度、激励和留存的。
I forgot to mention that, but, yeah, you are a podcaster as well, and you do a podcast about user engagement and motivation retention.
这太有趣了。
That's so interesting.
也许人们能从你的麦克风音质中听出来。
And maybe people can hear it in the quality of your mic.
音质非常好。
It's very it's very good.
这是最值得的投资。
It's worth the best investment.
我觉得当时花了大约80英镑，但这是我最近做过最值的投资。
I think it was, like, £80 or something, but it's the best investment I've I've made in a while.
没错。
Exactly.
是的。
Yeah.
但，说实话，我其实一直在思考类似的事情。
But, yeah, I mean, frankly, you know, I've been thinking about something similar.
到目前为止，我们已经制作了400多期这个播客，这构成了一个惊人的语料库。
We've done over 400 episodes of this podcast at this point, and it makes this incredible corpus.
每份文字稿大约有20页，加起来就是近8000页的第一手教育科技信息，来自这些杰出人士的见解，形成了一套极其强大的资料库。
Each transcript is, like, 20 pages long, and it's, like, 8,000 pages of information firsthand information about EdTech from all of these amazing people becomes a really powerful corpus of material.
正如你提到的，那些案例研究，比如探讨它在旅游行业是如何运作的？
And as you mentioned, the the case studies, the idea of being like, how does it work in the travel industry?
让我们采访一位旅游公司的首席执行官，他们可以具体讲述这究竟是如何运作的。
Let's talk to this CEO of a travel company, they could talk about exactly how this works.
这真的我觉得是一个非常令人兴奋的想法。
It's really I think it's a really exciting idea.
我再问一个关于AI的问题。
Let me ask one more question about AI.
我觉得现在的每一场对话最后都会变成谈AI。
I feel like every conversation devolves into AI these days.
这有点可笑。
It's kinda silly.
但我觉得AI真正令人兴奋的一点是，我们今年早些时候，甚至可能去年这个时候，就做过一个关于这个的网络研讨会。
But one thing that I think is really exciting about AI we we did a webinar about this earlier in the year, or maybe it's even last year at this point.
但你知道，我觉得游戏化和游戏机制是非常强大的手段。
But, you know, I feel like gaming and gamification are such powerful techniques.
它们能为任何类型的行为构建出一种极其出色的结构。
They create this really amazing structure on top of any different type of behavior.
而AI非常擅长组织信息。
And AI is very good at structuring information.
它非常擅长整合数据。
It's very good at taking synthesizing data.
它可能是来自用户的个人数据。
It could be personal data from a user.
它也可能来自一组用户的聚合数据。
It could be data from an aggregated set of users.
它可能是上百篇关于这个主题的研究论文，将其转化为结构化信息。
It could be, you know, a 100 research papers written about this and turning it into a structure.
我一直对将AI视为一种游戏化引擎的想法非常着迷。
And I've just been really intrigued at the idea of sort of AI as a gamification engine.
AI，即使在个人层面上，一个人可以说：我想要什么？
AI, even at a personal level, right, that a person could say, what do I want?
我想做这件事。
I want to do this thing.
我想换一份新工作，并在明年年底前掌握获得这份新工作所需的技能。
I wanna get a new job and get the skills to get this new job by the end of next year.
而AI可以说：我不但能告诉你需要哪些技能，还能为你制定一个时间表。
And an AI can say, well, I can not only tell you what the skills are, but I can create a schedule for you.
我可以为你制定一个学习路径，并设计游戏化机制，让你能够持续沿着这条路径前进，因为你在这档播客中提到的所有原因。
I can create a learning path for you, and I can create gamification structures so that you actually stay on that path for all the reasons you've been mentioning in this podcast.
你知道，要保持一致。
You know, align.
你知道自己想要这个，但该如何安排你的注意力，以免最终跑去刷Netflix呢？
You know you want this, but how do you structure your attention to not, you know, end up watching Netflix?
你该如何安排你的注意力，避免被当前的工作完全占据，以至于忘了提升自己？
How do you structure your attention to not end up getting so caught up in your current job that you forget to upscale?
这太强大了，我觉得AI真的可以在这方面带来变革，因为它能个性化定制。
Like, that is so powerful, and it's something that I feel like AI actually could really be, you know, transformational in because it can customize.
它能针对每个人的特定情况提供方案，而不是像Duolingo那样只追求打卡连胜。
It can do it in any individual circumstance rather than being a, you know, a Duolingo streak.
我想知道，你是否认为这是游戏化未来的一种可能方向——即AI根据个人的具体情境来游戏化他们的目标？
I'm curious if you see that as sort of one possible future of gamification, that idea of AI gamifying people's goals in their particular context.
我觉得是的。
I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，如果我们想想刚才提到的那种个性化打卡进度示例，是的。
I mean, if you think of the kind of personalized streak schedule example that we gave Yeah.
它们可以真正地建议你：你周末不太活跃，那我们干脆为你关闭这个功能吧？
They could really, like, suggest to you, you know, you're not really active on the weekend, so why don't we just turn this off for you?
或者，你周一非常活跃，那我们就在每个周一给你双倍积分奖励。
Or, you've been really active on Monday, so we're gonna give you a 2x points boost on every Monday.
或者下周一，你会获得这个奖励。
Or next Monday, you're gonna get this.
而且这是专门为这一个用户量身定制的。
And it's very it's for that one user.
所以有很多可以做的东西。
So there's tons of stuff.
我们正在积极思考这个问题，还有很多我们非常想加入的功能。
We are actively thinking about this, and there's tons of stuff that we really want to add.
而且在你提到的另一方面，即尝试引导用户了解什么方案适合他们的特定使用场景，并让系统不再局限于平台通用模式，而是变得更加个性化。
And also on the side that you mentioned of, like, trying to guide people of what would work in their particular use case and try and open it up to be, like, less platform wide and and way more personal.
在直接面向消费者的领域也是如此，因为这些社交体验确实能大幅提升整个游戏化体验，但在消费者端实现起来更困难。
Also in the direct to consumer side as well because it's these these social experiences can really, like, level up the whole gamification experience, but that's more difficult to do on the consumer side.
因此，要弄清楚哪些人最适合与你组成一个群体，在这方面更具挑战性。
So trying to figure out, like, who are the best people for you to be put into a cohort with is more of a challenge in that side.
所以我们本质上是一个事件系统，持续追踪用户的所有行为，比如他们翻阅的闪卡、观看的视频。
So we're essentially like an event system where we're tracking what people are doing all the time and seeing the user interactions, of the flashcards they're flipping, the videos they're watching.
不是这些内容本身，而是他们确实在进行这些行为这一事实。
So not the actual content of those, but the the fact that they're actually doing that thing.
因此，我们可以利用这些数据说：这另外十个人也和你做了类似的事情，为什么不加他们为好友，或者下周和他们竞争一下，看看你的表现如何？
And so we can kind of use that data to say, well, these other set of 10 people are also kind of doing the same thing as you, so why don't you add them as a friend, or why don't you compete against them for the next week and see how you do?
但在大规模应用时，这是一项巨大的挑战。
But at scale, that's quite a big challenge.
因此，人工智能会让这件事变得容易得多。
So AI would make that much, much easier.
是的
Yeah.
这是一个非常有洞察力的评论。
That's a really insightful comment.
我想到了一些AI学习正在大规模应用的领域，比如谷歌的引导式学习、OpenAI的学习模式或Magic School。
I think of, you know, some of the surface areas in which AI learning is happening at a huge scale, like Google guided learning or OpenAI's study mode or magic school.
你知道的？
You know?
你可以想象一下，如果在这样的世界里，这种个性化的游戏化和分组机制能够实现会怎样。
And you're like, imagine a world in which that type of personalized gamification, that type of cohorting could happen in that world.
想象一下，在Magic School里，老师走进来，说：好吧。
Imagine if you you know, in magic school, you have a teacher go in and say, okay.
到今年年底，我希望这些孩子达到这些目标，然后突然说：好的。
By the end of this year, I want this is the goals for this set of kids, and suddenly goes, okay.
太棒了。
Fantastic.
我们要把这个群体变成一个学习小组。
We're gonna make that group a cohort.
我们要让他们彼此了解。
We're gonna make them aware of each other.
他们可以参与排行榜，或者加入一个集体排行榜，一起与隔壁学校竞争。
They can they can act on a leaderboard, or they can be on a collective leaderboard that can work together to compete with the school next door.
我会跟踪进度，提供进展报告，并做所有这些事情。
And I'll track it, and I'll give progress reports, and I'll do all these things.
这是一套非常强大的结构，能将任何类型的经验转化为有条理、有意义的进步过程。
It's like, it is such a powerful set of structures that just takes any kind of experience and turns it into a structured, meaningful, you know, progression.
我认为在AI教育科技工具的背景下，无论是面向消费者还是学校，这都会非常强大。
I think it would be so powerful in the context of major, you know, AI EdTech tools, whether they're direct to consumer or in schools.
这太强大了。
It's so powerful.
你正在Trophy所做的事让我如此兴奋，原因之一是，我认为这正是许多人在游戏化巅峰时期所期待的东西。
Part of what excites me so much about what you're doing at Trophy is that, again, it's something that I think so many people, especially at the very height of gamification.
那时候，它简直在全面接管一切。
There was, like, a moment where it was just taking over.
当时非常非常火爆。
It was very, very hype.
每个人都在谈论它。
Everybody was talking about it.
我相信你记得。
I'm sure you remember.
在那个时刻，你知道的，积分、徽章，所有这些都充满了令人兴奋的气息。
And I think at that moment, you know, bunch ball and badge, there was just all of this excitement about it.
但我觉得发生的是，所有人都试图自己去实现它。
But I think what happened is all of these people tried to do it on their own.
他们遇到了你在这里提到的那些问题和陷阱。
They hit the same kind of issues that you've talked about here as pitfalls.
对吧？
Right?
奖励了错误的东西，无意中打击了积极性，创建了大规模的排行榜，没有做到足够的孤立性，所有这些问题。
Rewarding the wrong things, demotivating accidentally, creating mass leaderboards, not making very isolating, all of these things.
然后，个人各自尝试时都失败了，这个地方也就不再那么受欢迎了。
And then individually, people sort of failed at it, and it became less of a go to place.
与此同时，一些最成功的教育科技公司，比如多邻国、Kahoot，已经广泛使用了它。
At the same time, some of the most successful, especially in EdTech, companies like Duolingo, companies like Kahoot, have used it extensively.
这完全构成了它们所有工作的核心。
It's absolutely core to everything they do.
我认为我们当时有点把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉了，而现在它正以一种非常审慎的方式回归。
And I think we we say maybe threw out the baby with the bathwater a little bit back then, and now it's coming back in in a really, I think, thoughtful way.
我认为你正在引领这一潮流。
And I think you're really leading the charge with that.
是的。
Yeah.
但愿如此。
I hope so.
无论如何，这都是我们的计划。
That's our plan anyway.
当然。
Absolutely.
那我来问问你关于播客的事，我觉得这非常有趣。
So let me ask you about the podcasting because I think this is so interesting.
对吧？
Right?
你做了一个关于学习、参与感和动机的播客，不仅限于教育科技，还涉及健康、以及其他各种行业。
You do this podcast about learning and and engagement and motivation in not just in EdTech, in in EdTech, in wellness, in in various industries.
从你的访谈中，你学到的最大的收获是什么？
What has been the sort of biggest learning you've gotten from your conversations?
我觉得播客的精髓在于，你能向每个人学习。
I feel like the big trick about podcasting is that you get to learn from everybody.
这太有力量了。
It's so powerful.
在你的讨论中，有哪些你希望与我们的观众分享的收获？
What have been some of your learnings from your discussions that you'd like to share with our audience?
是的。
Yeah.
我认为，从我们许多对话中浮现出来的，是这种社交层面。
I think it's this social aspect that that has really come from a lot of the conversations we've had.
有几个人提到了这一点，他们正在以其他方式做类似的事情。
A few people have kinda brought that up, and they they're doing this in other ways.
他们正在构建社区。
They're building communities.
因此，游戏化就像一个社区，但它也为这个社区增添了一层额外的元素。
And so gamification is like a is a community, but it's like an added layer to that community as well.
所以，这些对话让我们特别意识到这一点。
So that that's really come out of those conversations that we've had.
你有什么资源想与我们的观众分享吗？
Are there any resources that you'd like to share with our audience?
我们以前在每期播客中都会问这个问题，但我现在不再像以前那样严格执行了。
This is something we used to ask in every podcast, and I don't do it, you know, religiously anymore.
但我觉得你对这个领域如此深入，我想知道是否有书籍、通讯，或者任何你觉得能帮助人们真正理解游戏化心理学，或教育科技与游戏化如何结合的资源？如果你觉得有听众想了解的话。
But I think because you are so deep in this particular area, I'm curious if there are books or, you know, newsletters or if there's any resources that you feel like are your go to for really understanding the psychology of gamification or how EdTech and gamification go together that you think you know, if anybody listening to this says, right.
我只是想更多地了解这个领域，更好地理解它。
I I just wanna learn more about this world and understand it better.
你会推荐人们去哪里学习呢？
Where would you send people?
eLearning行业里有很多相关内容。
There's lots of stuff on elearning industry.
我也开始在那里写文章。
Start to write articles on there as well.
我写过一篇关于大多数人如何错误使用排行榜的文章，以及尝试不同方法的思路。
I wrote one about how most people do leaderboards wrong on there and the kind of different ways of trying to do this.
所以我以后会在那里发布更多内容。
So I'm gonna be posting a lot more on there.
如果大家想深入了解的话，Octalysis框架是一个值得关注的工具。
The Octalysis framework is something to look out for if that's something people want to look into.
它提供了一个思考动机的框架，帮助你开始在平台上实施游戏化，以及理解背后的心理学原理。
It kind of provides a bit of a framework to thinking about motivation and how you can start to implement gamification in your platform and the psychology around it.
这个值得一看。
That's good to look out for.
另外，我们的播客也很适合想了解他人如何应用游戏化及其对平台影响的人，这个播客叫《Levels》。
And then our podcast as well, if people want to listen to how people do gamification and how it impacts their platforms, then yeah, so the Levels podcast is what it's called.
它在所有主流平台上都能收听。
It's on all the major platforms.
《Levels》播客。
The Levels podcast.
你刚才提到的那个框架叫什么名字？
What was the name of the framework you just said?
我想我没听清楚。
I think I missed it.
Octalysis框架。
Octalysis framework.
Octalysis。
Octalysis.
是的。
Yeah.
我可以发你一个链接。
I can I'll send you a link.
太棒了。
Fantastic.
而且和往常一样，我们会把所有这些资源的链接放在本集的节目说明中。
And and as always, we will put links to all of these resources in the show notes for this episode.
我以前没听说过Octalysis。
I've never heard of Octalysis.
我对它非常好奇，而且，很好的建议。
I'm very curious about it, and, yeah, good suggestions there.
非常感谢。
Thank you so much.
我是查理·霍普金斯-布里尼科姆。
This is Charlie Hopkins-Brinicombe.
他是Trophy.so的联合创始人，这是一家游戏化基础设施平台，帮助产品团队——包括许多教育科技领域的团队——在几周内而非几个月内构建高度可定制的游戏化学习体验，你可以尝试各种不同的方法，让你的平台更具粘性、更吸引人、更持久、更有激励性。
He is the cofounder of Trophy.so, which is a gamification infrastructure platform that helps product teams, including many in EdTech, build gamified learning experiences in weeks, not months, and incredibly customizable ways that can be experimented on, and you can try all sorts of different things to make your platform more sticky, engaging, retentive, and motivating.
非常感谢你来到我们的《教育科技内幕》节目。
Thank you so much for being here with us on EdTech Insiders.
谢谢，亚历克斯。
Thanks, Alex.
感谢收听本期《教育科技内幕》。
Thanks for listening to this episode of EdTech Insiders.
如果你喜欢这个播客，请记得给它打分并分享给教育科技领域的其他人。
If you like the podcast, remember to rate it and share it with others in the EdTech community.
对于想要获取更多教育科技内幕信息的人，请订阅Substack上的免费《教育科技内幕》通讯。
For those who want even more EdTech insider, subscribe to the free EdTech insiders newsletter on Substack.
本季《EdTech Insiders》由Cooley LLP赞助。
This season of EdTech insiders is brought to you by Cooley LLP.
Cooley是教育和EdTech创新者的首选律师事务所，为从学龄前到老年教育的全领域提供行业洞察的法律建议。
Cooley is the go to law firm for education and EdTech innovators, offering industry informed counsel across the preK to gray spectrum.
通过多学科方法和强大的EdTech生态系统，Cooley助力塑造教育的未来。
With a multidisciplinary approach and a powerful EdTech ecosystem, Cooley helps shape the future of education.
本季《EdTech Insiders》由Starbridge赞助。
This season of EdTech insiders is brought to you by Starbridge.
每年，K-12学区和高等教育机构的支出超过1万亿美元，但大多数销售团队都错过了这些信号。
Every year, k-twelve districts and higher ed institutions spend over half $1,000,000,000,000, but most sales teams miss the signals.
Starbridge追踪诸如董事会纪要、预算草案和战略计划等早期迹象，并帮助您快速将其转化为个性化 outreach。
Starbridge tracks early signs like board minutes, budget drafts, and strategic plans, and then helps you turn them into personalized outreach fast.
在RFP阶段之前就赢得交易。
Win the deal before it hits the RFP stage.
这就是顶尖EdTech团队保持领先的方式。
That's how top EdTech teams stay ahead.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。