Pokémon to Prodigy: How Game-Based Learning Captivated 20 Million Students with Rohan Mahimker

Tuck Advisors 由曾创办并成功出售自己公司的企业家创立。

Tuck Advisors was founded by entrepreneurs who built and sold their own companies.

由于对其他并购公司感到失望，他们创建了自己理想中却无法找到的那一家。

Frustrated by other m and a firms, they created the one they wished they could have hired but couldn't find.

一家理解创始人真正需求、以成交交易的百分比为北极星指标的公司。

One who understands what matters to founders and whose North Star KPI is the percentage of deals closed.

如果你正在考虑出售或收购一家教育科技公司，请立即联系 Tuck Advisors。

If you're thinking of selling your EdTech company or buying one, contact Tuck Advisors now.

主要使用场景类似于独立练习。

The primary use case is like independent practice.

对吧？

Right?

那么，Prodigy 如何用于独立练习呢？

So how can Prodigy be used for independent practice?

这就是我们的自适应算法发挥作用的地方，孩子们可以按照自己的节奏进步。

That's where our adaptive algorithm comes in, and kids can progress at their own pace.

另一个是为教师提供差异化支持。

And another one is differentiation for teachers.

我们通过几种不同的方式实现这一点。

We do this in a few different ways.

如果学生遇到困难，我们可以在教师仪表板上精确指出学生在哪项标准及该标准下的哪项技能上存在困难。

So if a student is struggling, we can actually tell you in your teacher dashboard exactly which standard and which skill under that standard their students might be struggling in.

可能有三到四个学生在这一特定技能上遇到困难。

There might be like three or four students that are struggling with that specific skill.

因此，作为教师，你可以选择把这四个学生单独叫出来，利用接下来的小组教学时间，帮助他们掌握这项特定技能。

So now as a teacher, you can say, hey, You might wanna pull these four kids aside and use that to use your next kind of small group instruction block to help educate them or teach them on this specific skill.

欢迎收听《教育科技内参》，本播客是覆盖教育科技行业的顶级节目。

Welcome to EdTech Insiders, the top podcast covering the education technology industry.

从融资轮次到影响力，再到从幼儿教育、K12、高等教育到职场教育的AI进展，您在这里都能找到。

From funding rounds to impact to AI developments across early childhood, k 12, higher ed, and work, you'll find it all here at EdTech Insiders.

别忘了订阅我们的播客，查阅我们的通讯，以及我们的活动日历。

Remember to subscribe to the pod, check out our newsletter, and also our event calendar.

如需深入了解，请访问 EdTechInsiders Plus，您可以获取优质内容、加入我们的 WhatsApp 频道、优先参与活动，并获得 Alex 和 Ben 的幕后洞察。

And to go deeper, check out EdTechInsiders Plus, where you can get premium content, access to our WhatsApp channel, early access access to events, and back channel insights from Alex and Ben.

希望您喜欢今天的播客。

Hope you enjoyed today's pod.

本周《EdTech Insiders》节目我们邀请到了一位非常出色的嘉宾。

We have an amazing guest for this week's episode of EdTech Insiders.

我们正在与 Rohan Mahimker 对话。

We're speaking to Rohan Mahimker.

他是 Prodigy Education 的联合创始人兼联席首席执行官，这是一家全球领先的数字游戏化学习公司。

He's the cofounder and co CEO of Prodigy Education, a global leader in digital game based learning.

Rohan 于 2011 年与他的联合创始人兼联席首席执行官 Alex Peters 一同创立了 Prodigy。

Rohan launched Prodigy alongside his fellow cofounder and co CEO, Alex Peters in 2011.

如今，Prodigy 的旗舰数学游戏已被超过两千万名八年级及以下学生使用，是美国最受欢迎的课堂辅助工具之一。

And today, Prodigy's flagship math game is used by more than 20,000,000 through eighth grade students, and it's one of the most popular supplementary classroom tools in The United States.

Rohan Mahimker，欢迎来到《EdTech Insiders》。

Rohan Mahimker, welcome, EdTech Insiders.

非常感谢你们邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

那我们先从背景故事说起吧。

So let's start with the backstory.

你们在2011年共同创立了Prodigy。

You cofounded Prodigy in 2011.

到目前为止，这已经大约是十五年前了。

That's about a decade and a half ago at this point.

这太了不起了。

That's incredible.

我肯定这对你们来说也令人惊叹。

I'm sure that's amazing to you as well.

我想当时你还是个学生。

I think you were a student at the time.

是什么激励你和你的联合创始人亚历克斯·彼得斯创办一家游戏化学习公司？

What inspired you and your cofounder, Alex Peters, to launch a game based learning company?

那时的教育科技环境非常不同。

It was a very different era of EdTech.

是的。

Yeah.

在教育科技领域，那确实是很久以前的事了。

It was certainly a long time ago in the EdTech world.

简单介绍一下背景，当我们推出Prodigy时，亚历克斯和我都是加拿大滑铁卢大学的工程专业学生。

So just for a little bit of background, when we launched Prodigy, Alex and I were engineering students at the University of Waterloo here in Canada.

我们把Prodigy作为我们大四的专题项目来启动。

And we started Prodigy as our fourth year symposium project.

于是我们回顾了自己的童年，思考自己曾经喜欢和不喜欢的学习方式。

So we looked at and reflected back on our own childhoods and what we enjoyed and what we didn't enjoy.

对我来说，父母给我报了一个课后辅导班，如果你熟悉库利律师事务所的话，那和它非常相似。

So for me, my parents had put me in an after school tutoring program, very similar to Cooley LLP, if you're familiar with that.

对我来说，学习数学的过程就是一页又一页地做练习册。

And the process of learning math for me was going through pages and pages of worksheets.

我至今还记得，每周回家时都带着一叠像那样厚的练习纸，必须一页页翻看，小时候对这个过程简直深恶痛绝。

And I'd still remember the experience of coming home with a stack of worksheets like that thick every week and having to leaf through these and just absolutely dreading that process as a kid.

但与此同时，我们小时候非常喜爱电子游戏。

At the very same time, we really enjoyed video games as kids.

所以当年在Game Boy上玩的《精灵宝可梦》游戏，我觉得我们大概是同一代人，那真的非常有趣且吸引人。

So the early Pokemon games on Game Boy, I feel like we're probably from the same generation, were really interesting and appealing.

于是我们说，嘿。

So we said, hey.

如果我们能把学习和像《精灵宝可梦》那样的电子游戏一样吸引人的东西结合起来，会怎么样？

What if we can combine learning with something that is as engaging as a Pokemon style video game and blend these two things together?

我认为，这在让学生真正投入学习过程方面，将会是真正的魔法。

I think that would be real magic when it comes to getting students actually engaged in the learning process.

这就是我们创立Prodigy的灵感来源。

So that was the inspiration behind why we started Prodigy.

我们当时是把它当作大四的项目来做的。

And we did it as a fourth year project.

我们毕业后，把一个非常粗糙的初步原型展示给一些孩子，结果他们非常认同。

We then took a very, very rough kind of alpha prototype and put it in front of some kids after we graduated and it resonated with them.

于是我们说，嘿。

And we said, hey.

我们可能真发现点什么了。

We might have something on our hands here.

所以我们决定继续推进这个项目。

So we decided to kinda go forth with it.

你能跟我们说说吗？可以从它当初的样子开始讲，或者直接描述它是如何一步步演变成现在的样子的。

And tell us about you can start with what it looked like back then or even just sort of evolve it in real time to what it's looked like now.

但请你告诉我们，当你说它引起了孩子们的共鸣时，具体是什么样的体验？

But tell us about what the experience is like when you say it resonated with the kids.

这是一个非常沉浸式的基于游戏的体验。

It's a very immersive game based experience.

有冒险，有角色扮演。

There's adventures, there's role playing.

你正在培养一个角色。

You have a character you're building up.

你拥有各种法术。

You have spells.

能给我们讲讲玩Prodigy是什么感觉吗？你是如何真正吸引孩子，让他们对数学产生兴趣，而不仅仅是做习题册上的数学？

Tell us a little bit about what it's like to play Prodigy and how you really grab kids and get them excited about math beyond worksheet style math.

当然。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

所以我先跟你们说说它现在的样子，然后再回溯一下早期是什么样子，以及我们是如何走到今天的。

So I'll tell you a little bit about what it looks like now, and then I'll rewind to what the early days look like and how we got here.

目前，我们的主打角色扮演游戏完全围绕数学展开。

So currently, our flagship RPG game, our role playing game, is all centered around math.

在这个游戏中，孩子们可以创建自己专属的巫师头像。

And in this, kids get to create their very own wizard avatar.

他们进入这个魔法世界。

They come into this magical world.

我们有一个名为傀儡大师的反派角色。

We have our antagonist who's called the puppet master.

他使用黑暗魔法，让游戏中的所有宠物或怪物都与你为敌，而你需要一路冒险，帮助解救这些宠物。

He's used dark magic to basically turn all the pets in the game or monsters in the game against you, and you are kind of going through this and helping to rescue some of these pets.

随着游戏剧情的发展，你最终会击败傀儡大师。

And you're eventually defeating the puppet master as you go through the storyline of the game.

这非常沉浸式。

So it is a very immersive.

它很像《精灵宝可梦》，你会穿越不同的区域和完成各种任务线。

It's very kind of like Pokemon esque in terms of you're going through the various zones and the various quest lines in there.

孩子们 overwhelmingly 被故事情节吸引。

And kids overwhelmingly get engaged with the storyline.

他们想自定义自己的角色。

They wanna customize their avatar.

他们想玩下去。

They wanna play through it.

他们想收集更多宠物，救出它们并加入自己的队伍。

They wanna add more pets and rescue them and add them to their team.

而要完成这些操作，要在游戏中取得任何进展，你都必须回答数学问题。

And in order to do any of this, in order to make any progress in the game at all, you have to answer math questions.

这就是学习的切入点。

And that's where the learning comes in.

而它的妙处在于，游戏能持续激发孩子的动力。

And the beauty of it is the game keeps kids motivated.

因此，我们秉持一种教育理念：先激发动力，这意味着一旦有了动力，就可以自然地融入数学内容，确保孩子们进行足够的数学练习并投入足够的时间。

So we have a philosophy of education that is motivation first, which means that once you have the motivation, you can really sprinkle in the math and make sure that kids are doing sufficient math and have sufficient time on task.

我们的信念是，从长远来看，这能最大化学习效果。

And our belief is in the long run, that maximizes learning.

因为一个今天做练习册但明天就拒绝继续的孩子，其进步远不如那些长期沉浸于我们这类产品的孩子的进步。

Because the kid who does a worksheet now but refuses to tomorrow, they're not going to make as many gains as the kid who is engaged for months and months or years and years on a product like ours.

所以这就是现在体验的样子。

So that's kinda what the experience looks like now.

回溯到我们刚开始的时候，屏幕上只有两个角色，他们在进行数学对决。

Rewinding to when we started, we kind of had just simply two characters on screen, and they were in a math battle.

他们需要回答一个问题，如果你答对了，最终就能击败对手。

So they'd have to answer a question, and if you got that question right, you'd be able to eventually defeat your opponent.

当我们把这展示给孩子们时，这个基本概念是有效的。

And when we put it in front of kids, that general concept was working.

在我们创业的第一年半里，我们处于测试阶段，并且坦率地承认：我们只是工程专业的学生。

And then what we did in the first year and a half of the business was we were in beta, and we fully acknowledged that, hey, we were engineering students.

我们对教育体系一无所知。

We knew absolutely nothing about the education system.

我们每天都努力进入课堂。

And we just tried to get into classrooms every single day.

我们坐在教室里，对孩子们说：嘿。

We sat there in classrooms with kids saying, hey.

你喜欢什么？

Like, what do you like?

你希望这个游戏里有什么？

What would you like to see in this game?

他们说，嘿。

And they said, hey.

我正在战斗的这些怪物，我想把它们当宠物抓起来。

These monsters that I'm battling, I'd like to capture them as pets.

于是我们添加了这个功能。

So we added that functionality.

我们和很多老师聊过，他们说，你们希望看到什么？

We talked to a lot of teachers who said, would you like to see?

我们最早学到的一件事，现在看来显而易见，因为很多产品都这么做了，就是他们希望报告能与实际教学标准对齐。

And one of the first things we learned, which seems so obvious now that it's it's standard in a lot of products, is they wanted reporting that was aligned to the actual standards.

他们希望有深入分析的功能。

They wanted drill down capabilities.

他们希望的是，比如今天我在课堂上教三维形状，我能不能在游戏里给孩子们出10道关于三维形状的题目？

They wanted things like, if I was working on three d shapes today in the classroom, can I give my kids 10 questions on three d shapes in the game?

因此，我们实际上在行业内率先开发了许多这些功能，因为我们认真听取了教师和学生的声音，真正将他们想要的东西融入到了产品中。

So we actually ended up pioneering a lot of those features across the industry because we were listening to our teachers and students and really building what they wanted into the product.

这是一种以用户为中心的方法。

It's a user based approach.

你们现在称之为共同设计。

You're codesigning, they call it these days.

对吧？

Right?

你直接与最终用户合作，这是开发出让人真正喜爱、依赖并关心的产品的最有效方式。

You're working directly with your end users, and that's the most powerful way to develop a product that people really grow to love and depend on and really care about.

这非常令人兴奋。

And that's incredibly exciting.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你们覆盖了一到八年级的数学。

And so you're doing first through eighth grade math.

这涉及很多不同类型的数学。

That's a lot of different kinds of math.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，到了八年级，我们谈的是代数和几何。

I mean, by eighth grade, we're talking about algebra and geometry.

到了一年级，我们谈的是基本运算。

By first grade, we're talking about basic functions.

你们是怎么思考这个数学部分的？

How do you think about the math piece of this?

你们有数学团队或学术团队吗？

Do you have a math team, an academic team?

我很想知道，你们是仅仅把科利律师事务所习题册里的数学内容搬到这个极具吸引力的环境中，还是也会对数学本身进行创新？

And I'm curious how you push it or try to push it beyond is it the same exact math as you would see in the Cooley LLP worksheets, but in this incredibly engaging environment, or do you actually play with the math as well?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们在这里也做了很多工作。

So we actually do a lot of work here as well.

我们的团队中有一群教育专家，他们帮助我们设计教育内容。

So we have a team of educators on our staff, and they essentially help us to design the education content.

他们都有完整的教师资格认证。

They're fully credentialed.

我认为他们全部或大多数人都有实际的课堂教学经验。

I think all or most of them, I think all have a background in the classroom themselves.

因此，他们从教学法的角度帮助我们设计产品。

So they help us design the product from a pedagogical perspective.

我们在那里所关注的，以及我们设计的游戏的美妙之处在于，我们实际上将数学内容与游戏内容分离了。

And what we're looking at there and the beauty of the game as we've designed it is we've actually decoupled the math content from the game content.

这是我们很早就学到的一个经验。

And this is a lesson that we learned super early on.

在我们最初的一次课堂活动中，玩家可以从五个法术中选择，其中‘闪电术’这个法术只会生成乘法题目。

In one of our first sessions in the classroom, we had you could select from five spells and lightning bolt as a spell only gave you multiplication questions.

我们发现，喜欢乘法但想避开除法的孩子们会一直点击‘闪电术’。

So we found the kids who liked multiplication but wanted to avoid division just kept clicking lightning bolt.

然后我们意识到，这真是太好了。

And then we're like, this is great.

你确实把乘法练得很熟练，但你实际上并没有学到任何新东西。

You're getting really good at multiplication, but you're not actually learning anything new.

所以我们的做法是，尽量让孩子们处于他们的最近发展区。

So our approach is we try to keep kids in their zone of proximal development.

这意味着我们会调整内容，使其具有挑战性，但又不至于难到让孩子感到沮丧而放弃。

And what that means is we try to adapt the content so that it's challenging, but not too challenging to the extent that they get frustrated and give up.

这正是我们后台的小小秘诀。

And that's a little bit of our secret sauce in the background.

无论你是领先两个年级、表现优异，还是仍有一些知识漏洞、比同龄人低一到两个年级，你都会感觉自己在玩着完全相同的游戏。

And regardless of if you're, like, working two grade levels ahead and really excelling, or if you might still have some gaps and you're, like, one or two grade levels below the rest of your classmates, you still feel like you're playing the exact same game.

我们正在帮助孩子们在学习课程的过程中逐步建立自信。

And we're helping kids to kind of build their confidence as they're progressing through the curriculum.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为将它们分开是一个非常明智的举措。

I think that separation, it's a very smart move to separate out.

虽然听起来似乎很直观，觉得游戏机制应该直接基于数学内容，

Even though it feels intuitive, I think, to say, oh, the game mechanics will be directly based on the math.

我记得很多年前尝试制作一款数学游戏时，想着比如指数就设计成一面魔法镜子，你得用同样的东西相乘。

I remember many years ago trying to create a math game and thinking, oh, like, the exponents will be like a magic mirror, and you'll multiply by the same things.

但我想你所说的这是一个来之不易的教训，许多其他基于游戏的教育项目也必须经历这一点：当数学和游戏绑定得太紧时，会创造出不同的激励机制，因为人们会只做他们喜欢的游戏部分，或者只做他们觉得最简单的数学部分，还会出现其他一些问题。

But I think what you're saying is a hard earned lesson that I think a lot of other game based education programs have had to learn as well, which is you're creating different incentives if the math and the game are too tied together because people are gonna do the parts of the game they like or do the parts of the math that they find easiest or there's also certain things that happen.

所以听到你这么说，我感到很高兴。

So I'm happy to hear you say that.

通过这种做法，也根本无法回避任何问题。

And with this approach, there's also no way to avoid questions.

对吧？

Right?

举个例子，如果老师想让学生练习二维图形，因为课堂上刚教过这个内容，他们想给学生布置10道关于二维图形的练习题作为课后评估，他们可以把它设计成一个隐蔽的作业或测验，而孩子们根本察觉不到。

So as an example, if your teacher wants to work on two d shapes because that's what they've taught in the classroom and they wanna give kids 10 questions on two d shapes as an exit ticket, they can do that as a sneaky assignment or assessment, and kids will never know.

孩子们只会看到二维图形的问题，但他们仍然可以自由选择自己想玩的游戏部分。

They just get the two d shapes questions, but they can play in the part of the game that they wanna play in.

所以这可以说是双赢的局面。

So it's kind of a win win on both sides.

是的。

Yeah.

在教育研究中，人们有时称之为隐蔽性评估，你实际上能够在孩子进行其他活动的自然情境中，评估一些有趣的学习表现，而他们完全不会感到压力。

They sometimes call that stealth assessment, right, In the literature that you actually are able to assess interesting things within the context of something that the kids might be doing otherwise, and they feel no stress about it.

这并不是高风险的评估。

There's it's not high stakes.

他们会觉得：哦，这本来就是我乐于参与的事情。

They're like, oh, this is already what I'm excited to do.

我认为这种方法有很多好处。

There's so many benefits, I think, in that approach.

你提到过这一点，但我很想听你深入讲讲。

You've mentioned this, but I'd love to hear you dive into it.

决定哪个孩子接触什么数学内容有不同的方式。

There's different ways of determining what math gets in front of what kid.

对吧？

Right?

孩子可能会超越课堂进度，提前学习更深入的内容。

Do you do the kid could might be extending and accelerating past what they're doing in class.

他们也可能正好跟上课堂的进度。

They may be staying right on what they're doing in class.

他们也可能在补足差距，或者完成老师布置的任务。

They may be behind filling gaps, and they may be doing things that the teachers are assigning them.

我很想听听你谈谈这一点。

I'd love to hear you talk about that.

数学是如何分配给每个学生的？你如何看待其中的差异化教学？

What are the different ways in which the particular math is assigned to any individual kid, and how do you think about the differentiation aspect of it?

我们马上回来。

We'll be right back.

本季《教育科技内参》由库利律师事务所赞助。

This season of EdTech Insiders is brought to you by Cooley LLP.

库利是教育和教育科技创新者的首选律师事务所，为从学龄前到老年教育的全阶段提供行业洞察的法律咨询。

Cooley is the go to law firm for education and EdTech innovators, offering industry informed counsel across the pre k to gray spectrum.

凭借多学科方法和强大的教育科技生态系统，库利正在塑造教育的未来。

With a multidisciplinary approach and a powerful EdTech ecosystem, Cooley helps shape the future of education.

本季《教育科技内参》由Starbridge赞助。

This season of EdTech Insiders is brought to you by Starbridge.

每年，K-12学区和高等教育机构的支出超过1万亿美元，但大多数销售团队都错过了这些信号。

Every year, k-twelve districts and higher ed institutions spend over half $1,000,000,000,000, but most sales teams miss the signals.

Starbridge追踪诸如董事会纪要、预算草案和战略计划等早期迹象，并帮助您快速将其转化为个性化沟通。

Starbridge tracks early signs like board minutes, budget drafts, and strategic plans, and then helps you turn them into personalized outreach fast.

在进入RFP阶段之前就赢得订单。

Win the deal before it hits the RFP stage.

这就是顶尖的教育科技团队保持领先的方式。

That's how top EdTech teams stay ahead.

是的。

Yeah.

这是个非常好的问题。

It's a really good question.

所以我们第一步是确保我们正在使用正确的课程和正确的标准。

So the first thing we do is we make sure that we are working on the right curriculum and the right set of standards.

例如，如果你在加利福尼亚，你会使用加州共同核心标准。

So for example, if you're in California, you'll get the California Common Core Standards.

在德克萨斯州，你会使用TEKS标准，也就是德克萨斯州的标准。

Texas, you'll get the TEAK Standards, which is kind of the standards in Texas.

因此，我们需要这种基础层面的对齐，这样当德克萨斯州的老师让学生使用Prodigy时，他们不会在学习密西西比州的标准。

So we want that base level alignment so that when a teacher puts their students on Prodigy in Texas, they're not working on, like, the Mississippi standards.

所以这是第一点。

So that's kinda number one.

第二点是，当孩子们在游戏中进步时，我们首先会让他们完成一次分层测试。

Number two is as kids are progressing through the game, the first thing that we do is we actually run everyone through a placement test.

这个过程会在后台自动完成。

And that happens automatically in the background.

这就像一个隐蔽的测试，因为孩子们并不知道自己正在接受测试，但我们可以找出他们的优势和潜在的知识漏洞。

Again, it's like a stealth test because kids don't know that they're going through it, but we figure out where their strengths are, where some of their gaps are potentially.

之后，当他们继续学习内容时，我们的算法会进行调整。

And then after that, as they progress through the content, our algorithm adapts.

举个例子，假设我正在学习比较分母为五的分数。

And as an example of that, let's say I'm working on comparing fractions with a denominator of five.

也许我错的原因是存在某个知识漏洞。

Maybe my gap and I'm getting that question wrong.

也许我的漏洞在于不会用五进行乘法运算。

Maybe my gap is that I don't know how to multiply it by fives.

然后系统会让我回到练习乘以五的内容。

Then it'll pull me back to multiply it by fives.

如果我仍然对此感到困难，它可能会让我回到按五的倍数数数。

If I'm still struggling with that, it might pull me back to skip counting by fives.

如果我还是有困难，就会回到按一或二的顺序数数。

And if I'm still struggling, skip counting by ones or twos.

所以你们会努力找出学生可能缺失的先决技能，然后针对这项技能进行辅导，再逐步帮助他们回到年级应有的水平。

So you really try to figure out what the prerequisite skill is that the students might be missing, and then try to address that skill with them and then kinda scaffold them back up to grade level and where they should be.

这就是我们确保孩子们学习适合他们内容的方式。

So that's kind of how we approach the ensuring that kids are working on the content that is appropriate for them.

然后，显然，如果老师想在 Prodigy 上布置作业，那就会优先于我们的课程内容。

And then, obviously, if a teacher wants to do an assignment in Prodigy, that just supersedes our curriculum.

这很有道理。

That makes a lot of sense.

我相信这些年来，你们见过很多孩子使用 Prodigy，主要是因为兴趣驱动。

Then I'm sure over the years, you've seen many, many kids who are using Prodigy to really because motivation first.

对吧？

Right?

他们对这个游戏很兴奋。

They're excited about the game.

他们对自己的学习内容很兴奋。

They're excited about what they're doing.

他们很可能深入钻研了所有这些数学主题，掌握了这些概念，甚至超越了年级水平。

They're probably going really deep into all of these math subjects and mastering all these concepts, sort of moving beyond the grade level.

我很想听听你谈谈这一点，作为创始人，这种感觉是怎样的？

I'd love to hear you talk about that and what that feels like as a founder.

是的。

Yeah.

这太棒了。

It is fantastic.

我想跟你分享一个故事，不知你是否介意。

I actually want to share a story here with you, if you don't mind.

几年前，我在德克萨斯州参加一个会议，当时有一位来自另一家教育科技公司的家长，他并不是教育工作者或老师，他跑过来对我们说：‘天啊，你们是Prodigy！’

A few years ago, was at a conference in, I believe, Texas, and there was a parent from another EdTech company, so he wasn't like an educator or teacher, and he ran up to us and he was like, oh my god, you guys are Prodigy.

让我跟你们分享一件事。

Let me tell you something.

他当时的孩子还在上幼儿园，还没开始上小学，但他一直说孩子特别喜欢你们的游戏。

His kid who was in kindergarten at the time, so he hadn't even started grade school, he was like, he loves your game so much.

他每天晚上都会玩两三个小时。

He plays this every night for, like, two or three hours.

他已经完成了我们一年级的内容、二年级、三年级，现在差不多进行到四年级的一半了。

And he had gone through our grade one content, grade two, grade three, and he's, like, halfway through grade four.

这位家长非常兴奋，他说他会陪着孩子，帮助他弥补一些学习上的薄弱环节。

And this parent was just so ecstatic, and he was like, I work with him and help address some of the gaps where he's struggling.

但数学的特点是所有内容都是累积的，对吧？

But the thing about math is it's all cumulative, right?

我相信你们在工作中也见过这种情况：如果你掌握了必要的前置技能，你就具备了学习数学课程中下一个技能的基础。

And I'm sure you've seen this in your work as well, where if you have some of the prerequisite skills, you should have the foundations to address what the next skill is in the math curriculum.

所以，如果你回到刚才的例子，比如乘以五，如果你能五个五个地数数，你就能大致理解怎么做。

So if you again, coming back to that example, to multiply by fives, if you can skip count by fives, you can kind of figure out how to do that.

因此，只要学生足够投入，他们在数学课程中能取得的进步就没有上限。

So there's really no limit if a student is sufficiently engaged and how far they can progress through the math curriculum.

你提到的这两种截然不同的世界之间的对比——你和联合创始人意识到，可以把那些缺乏吸引力的大量练习纸，与游戏那种富有激励性的叙事和沉浸式体验结合起来——这是一个巨大的飞跃。

That juxtaposition of those two different worlds that you mentioned, the realization that you and your cofounder had that you could take these stack of worksheets that is not very motivating and combine it with the motivational storytelling sort of immersive nature of gaming is a huge leap.

但你们并不是唯一想到这一点的人。

But you're not the only ones who have ever had that leap.

人们已经尝试将游戏与教育结合很久了。

People have been trying to figure out how to put gaming and education together for quite a long time.

然而，尽管你可以在App商店看到很多人在尝试，但真正取得巨大成功的案例却并不多。

And yet, I don't think there have been that many super successful attempts even though you can go to the App Store and find many people trying.

我想知道，你们认为Prodigy成功的原因是什么？

I'm curious what you attribute the success of Prodigy to.

你们已经坚持了十五年了。

You've been at it for a decade and a half.

你们已经吸引了数百万学生，我觉得你们已经证明了这一观点：确实可以将教育与游戏有效结合，两者都能从中受益。

You've grown to millions and millions of students, and I feel like you've sort of proven out this thesis that you really can put together education and gaming in a way that's effective on both sides.

但我很好奇，对于过去十年里那些尝试过但未能找到完美平衡的其他人都怎么样了？

But I'm curious what you think of sort of all the also rans, all the other people on the side of the road over the last decade who have been trying that and have not quite found that right match.

我认为，真正利用游戏化学习与教育的最大挑战在于，需要在教学法和游戏性之间取得平衡。

I think the big challenge when it comes to really leveraging game based learning and education is you need to balance the pedagogy with the gameplay.

这听起来很简单，但实际操作起来并不容易。比如，如果我是一名三年级老师，想在课堂上引入某个产品，我必须确保它能提供足够多的任务时间，因为我不希望孩子们在课堂上只玩纯粹的娱乐游戏。

And it sounds simple, but it's not quite as trivial in practice because for a teacher to use so if I'm, let's say, a third grade teacher and I wanna bring in a product using the the classroom, I need to make sure it has a certain amount of time on tasks that is acceptable to me because I don't want my kids to be doing purely entertainment games in the classroom.

他们需要真正地练习和学习一些东西。

They need to be actually practicing and learning something.

否则，这根本不是对课堂时间的有效利用。

Otherwise, it's just not an effective use of my classroom time.

同时，也有一些学生会被游戏中的娱乐元素深深吸引。

At the same time, there are students who would really engage with the entertainment value within the game.

因此，你真的需要在这两个因素之间找到平衡。

So you really need to balance kind of those two factors off.

这是其中一个关键点。

That's one big thing.

这一直是我们的秘诀，我们通过与用户的大量互动不断优化了这一点。

And that's been kind of our secret sauce, and we have refined that through a lot of interactions with our users.

第二点是，当我们刚开始时，去那些早期的测试课堂时，我们发现他们电脑上的教学软件还是像《数学马戏团》这样的东西。

The second thing is when we started, when we went to the early kind of beta classrooms that we tried to test the game with, when we looked at what was on their computer, it was still like Math Circus.

我当时就想，等等。

And I was like, wait a minute.

我小时候在课堂上玩过《数学马戏团》和《数学轰炸机》这类游戏。

I played Math Circus as a kid in the classroom and Math Blaster and stuff like that.

所以我认为，很多基于游戏的学习方案未能普及的另一个原因，是缺乏良好的商业模式。

So I think one of the other reasons why a lot of the game based learning solutions hadn't taken off is because there wasn't a good business model behind them.

而我们所做的另一项创新和开创性工作，就是这种免费增值模式——我们为教师提供了他们所需的所有价值，而且完全免费。

And that was the other thing that we had kind of innovated in and pioneered, which is this freemium model where we provided a lot of the value that teachers want, actually, all of the value that teachers want at zero cost to them.

我们找到了一种方法，通过让孩子向父母申请高级会员来实现盈利，从而让这个模式真正成为一门生意。

And we found a way to make this a real business and monetize it by getting kids to ask their parents for premium membership.

然后，其中一小部分愿意付费的家庭最终为其他所有人资助了这个模式。

And then a small percentage of those families who actually pay us end up financing the model for everyone else.

我很想进一步聊聊这个模式，如果你愿意的话，因为我确实同意。

I'd love to talk more about that model if you're open to it because I I agree.

你们率先开创了这种模式，我认为这在教育科技领域确实是革命性的。

You pioneered it, and it is something that is, I think, really revolutionary, frankly, in the EdTech space.

我们先谈谈学校这一方，因为我认为这个商业模式的独特之处在于，你需要满足多个不同的利益相关者。

Let's talk about the school side first because what's I think so unique about that business model is that you have many different stakeholders in it you have to satisfy.

对吧？

Right?

你需要让家长非常满意，因为他们孩子在家使用Prodigy并收到了报告。

You need parents to be very happy that their student is doing Prodigy at home and that they're getting reports.

你需要让老师非常满意，因为他们能免费获得所有这些价值，他们愿意使用它，并希望在课堂上推行。

You need teachers to be so happy that they're getting all of this value for free, they and wanna use it, they wanna make it happen in the classroom.

当然，你也需要让学生们有动力并且感到兴奋。

You need students, of course, to be motivated and excited.

这很难平衡，但带来的好处巨大。

It's a tricky balance, but one that has enormous upsides.

我们先从学校方面说起。

Let's start with the the school side.

我们在这个播客里经常谈到，要进入学校有多困难。

Teachers, we talk on this podcast all the time about how difficult it can be to get into schools.

老师要做的事情太多了。

Teachers have lots to do.

他们并不总是有空间容纳新的工具。

They don't always have room for new tools.

你们是如何设计Prodigy平台的，让老师能够接受并使用它，完成课后小测和作业，而不会觉得这又是需要他们学习的另一项技术工具？

How have you designed the Prodigy platform so that teachers can embrace it and use it and do those exit tickets and do those assignments, and it doesn't feel like yet another tech tool that's on their plate to have to learn?

这其实是我们在创业早期就非常关注的一点。

This is something we actually focused on super early on in the business.

如果我们有多个利益相关方，那显然包括学生、老师、家长和学校管理人员。

So if there's multiple stakeholders that we have, there's obviously students, teachers, parents, school administrators.

在学校管理者这一类中，有技术主管、课程主管以及学校的课程团队等。

Within the school administrator bucket, you have the tech directors, you have the curriculum directors and the curriculum teams at schools, etcetera.

我就不详细展开这些了。

I won't get into all of that.

但在教育层面，我们真正努力确保为课堂上的教师解决具体的应用场景。

But on an education side, we really tried to make sure that we were addressing specific use cases for teachers in the classroom.

主要的应用场景是独立练习。

So the primary use case is like independent practice.

对吧？

Right?

那么，Prodigy 如何用于独立练习呢？

So how can Prodigy be used for independent practice?

这就用到了我们的自适应算法，孩子们可以按照自己的节奏进步。

That's where our adaptive algorithm comes in, and kids can progress at their own pace.

另一个是为教师提供差异化教学支持。

And another one is differentiation for teachers.

我们通过几种不同的方式来实现这一点。

We do this in a few different ways.

因此，如果学生遇到困难，我们可以在您的教师仪表板上精确指出学生在哪个标准及该标准下的哪项技能上存在困难。

So if a student is struggling, we can actually tell you in your teacher dashboard exactly which standard and which skill under that standard their students might be struggling in.

可能有三到四个学生在这一特定技能上遇到困难。

There might be like three or four students that are struggling with that specific skill.

作为教师，您现在可以将这四个学生单独叫出来，利用下一次小组教学环节来帮助他们学习或教授这项特定技能。

So now as a teacher, you can say, hey, you might wanna pull these four kids aside and use that to use your next kind of small group instruction block to help educate them or teach them on this specific skill.

另一个使用场景是课堂小测验。

Another thing is there's the exit ticket use case.

因此，我们增加了类似作业功能的功能。

So that's where we've added functionality like our assignment feature.

还有一个形成性评估的使用场景。

There is like a formative assessment use case.

同样，您可以使用我们的作业功能。

And again, you can use our assignment feature.

我们新增了一个名为快速测验的功能，它允许教师在学生全体同时使用 Prodigy 时，快速设置一个热身练习，让学生集中训练某个特定技能。

We've added a feature called quick quiz, which essentially allows teachers to do if you wanna do a really quick warm up, your whole class is working on Prodigy at the same time and you want them to practice a specific skill, you can set that.

这种模式比普通游戏更能提高学生的专注时间，你可以以快速热身的形式快速引入这些问题。

It's much higher time on task than the regular game, and you can kind of get those questions in in a quick warm up format.

所以归根结底，我们是在深入理解教师日常教学和数学课中的实际需求，并思考如何融入这些具体场景。

So I think what it comes down to is we're really assessing what teachers need to do as part of their day to day and their math lesson and how can we fit into specific use cases there.

而第二个创新点显然是，我们把所有这些功能都免费开放了。

And then the second innovation, obviously, is we've made all of that available for free.

我们的目标是打造一个顶尖的教师平台。

So our goal is to have a best in class teacher platform.

你所能获得的所有功能和特性，都与学校或学区通常需要花费数千美元购买的产品相当，而这一切对你完全免费。

You have all of the features and functionality that you might find on products that your school or district would typically pay thousands of dollars for, and that's available to you at no cost.

因此，这对教师来说几乎是不二之选。

So it's a bit of a no brainer for teachers.

你不仅能获得一个极具吸引力的产品，还能拥有所需的所有功能。

You get the product that's really engaging, and you get all the functionality you need.

是的

Yeah.

现在让我们谈谈学生方面，因为学生在这个模式中扮演着非常独特的角色，这真的非常令人兴奋。

Now let's talk about the student side because you have the students play a very unique role in this model, which is really, I think, exciting.

他们在这种模式中拥有很大的自主权。

They play a lot of agency in this model.

他们可以在课堂上以你刚才提到的各种方式使用Prodigy，比如作为课后小测、形成性评估和独立练习。

They get to be using Prodigy in the classroom in all of the different ways that you just mentioned as exit tickets, informative assessments, and independent practice.

然后，他们还充当了回到家庭的小小大使，说：我非常喜欢玩Prodigy。

And then they serve as these mini ambassadors back to the home and say, I love playing Prodigy.

我想继续打造我的角色。

I wanna continue to build out my character.

我想继续探索这个世界的更多部分。

I wanna continue to explore more parts of this world.

妈妈，爸爸，我们可以订阅吗？

Mom, dad, can we subscribe?

你知道吗，这是你们模型中非常优雅的一部分，但我想这也可能有点棘手，因为你需要确保不会让学生觉得你在向他们做广告。

You know, it's such an elegant piece of your model, but it's also, I imagine, a little bit of a tricky one because you wanna make sure that you don't feel like you're advertising to students.

你不希望让学生觉得这太明显了，这里确实存在一种潜在的尴尬体验，而我认为你们处理得非常好。

You don't wanna feel like it feels too you know, there's a potential for a tricky experience there, which I think you've navigated very well.

你们是如何应对学生端以及从学校到家庭的过渡的呢？

How do you approach the student side and the transfer from the school to the home?

是的。

Yeah.

在深入讨论之前，我想强调一下教室里常见的免费产品所面临的一个挑战。

So before I get into that, I wanna highlight one of the challenges that comes with typical, like, free products in the classroom.

其中一个主要挑战是，如果所有东西都是免费的，那你仍然需要找到其他方式来实现盈利。

And one of the big challenges is if everything is free, then you still need to find another way to monetize the product.

这就引出了第三方广告的介入。

That's where, like, third party advertising comes in.

这就涉及到了数据挖掘之类的做法，甚至把数据转售出去。

That's where something like data mining comes in and kind of resell that data.

我们一直非常小心，绝不会做这些事。

We've been very, very careful not to do any of that.

我们找到的模式是，只有当孩子遇到需要会员权限的功能时，才会收到第一方的升级提示。

And the model that we found is it's kids only get kind of first party prompts to potentially upgrade if they run into one of the features that they need a membership for.

举个例子，作为会员，我可以在游戏中捕捉更多宠物，而非会员则不行。

And to give you an example of what some of those might be, I can, for example, capture more pets in the game as a member versus a nonmember.

作为非会员，你依然可以拥有宠物。

You still have pets as a nonmember.

你只是能拥有的数量更少。

You can just get more.

如果我是会员，我可以为我的虚拟形象获得更酷的服装和装扮。

I can get, like, cooler outfits and clothes for my avatar if I have a membership.

因此，我们借鉴了这种以虚荣型游戏功能为核心的商业模式——孩子们非常喜欢这些功能，能有效提升他们的参与度，但与此同时，我们非常谨慎地确保Prodigy中的所有数学内容，以及我们英语游戏中的所有英语内容，完全免费。

And so we've borrowed this element and business model of having these vanity game features, which kids really enjoy and can potentially increase their engagement, but at the same time, we've been very careful to keep all of the math content in Prodigy, all of the English content as well in our English game, entirely free.

无论是免费用户还是付费用户，都可以使用这些内容。

So a free user can use it, a paid user can use it.

实际上，访问权限没有任何区别。

There is actually no difference in access.

所以，我想最后说的是，我们设计这个商业模式，是因为Prodigy的使命是帮助全世界每一个学生爱上学习。

So the last thing that I'll say here is we wanted to design a business model because our mission at Prodigy is to help every student in the world to love learning.

如果使用你的产品需要付费，那是做不到这一点的。

You can't do that if there is a fee to enter your product.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们努力设计了一个对所有利益相关者都是三赢的商业模式。

So we've tried to design the business model so that it's a win win win for all stakeholders.

我们公司只有在你的学生如此投入，以至于他们在家里主动玩Prodigy，并且在游戏中做了大量活动，回家后向父母要求开通会员时，才能赚到钱。

We, a company, only make money if your student is so engaged that they're actually playing Prodigy at home and that they're actually doing so much stuff within the game that they go home and ask their parent for a membership.

而进一步说，如果他们达到了这种投入程度，他们在平台上的学习效果也会非常出色，因为在Prodigy上取得任何进展都必须做数学题。

And by extension, if they have that level of engagement, they also have really high learning on platform because in order to make any progress on Prodigy, you have to do the math.

对吧？

Right?

正如我前面所描述的，我们努力帮助孩子们逐步完成课程进度。

And we try to progress kids through the curriculum as I described earlier.

所以我认为这是一个能够服务所有利益相关者的模式，同时也能让我们作为一家企业持续运营下去。

So I do think it's a model that that serves all of our stakeholders, and and we are able to sustain ourselves as a business as well.

是的。

Yes.

另一个非常有趣的方面，我很想问问你的是家长这一端。

Well, another really interesting aspect of it, and I'd love to ask you about it, is the parent side.

因为当你提到——我认为这是一种非常崇高且完全正确的做法——作为会员，家庭订阅后解锁的是一些表面上的东西。

Because when you mention, which I think is a very noble and absolutely the right approach to say that, you know, what you're unlocking by being a member, by having a family actually subscribe is vanity things.

虽然‘虚荣’这个词听起来有点负面，但其实指的是游戏中那些可以让你角色装扮得更酷、拥有更多宠物之类的道具，也就是你提到的那些内容。

And this vanity makes it sound bad, but, you know, it's game items that make you that you can dress in really cool ways or have more pets or, you know, the things you're mentioning.

我想象，对于一位在决定是否投资教育科技工具的家长来说，他们的决策过程中涉及很多因素，但你可以讲一个故事：你的孩子在学校使用Prodigy时正在做x y z，但你希望他们能进阶到高等数学、微积分，最终进入一所顶尖大学，这才是你订阅的原因。

I imagine that for a parent who's deciding whether to invest in an EdTech tool, their decision process is there's lots of different things going on in there, but there is a story that you could tell that says, oh, your kid is doing x y z at school in Prodigy, but you want them to get it into advanced math and get into calculus and get into a great college, and that's why you subscribe.

但这完全不是你们的宣传重点。

And that is absolutely not your messaging at all.

相反，他们是因为喜欢做这件事，才会花更多时间在游戏中做数学。

Instead, it's they love doing it and get them to spend more time in the game doing math.

但我很想听听你谈谈这一点，因为我觉得，当你在Prodigy内部做这些决策时，这确实是一个微妙的平衡——你做的是对的事，但这也可能与一些家长的动机背道而驰。

But I'd love to hear you talk through because that that feels like you know, I imagine being in the room inside Prodigy making these decisions, and it it is a little bit of a a tricky bridge to you're doing the right thing, but it also may be something that flies in the face a little bit of some of the parent motivation.

我很想知道你是如何应对这个问题的。

I'm curious how you approach that.

这确实如此。

It certainly does.

家长们习惯为教育科技产品支付的，是教育内容。

So what parents are used to paying for EdTech products is education content.

我们明确表示，所有教育内容都将免费提供，因此这个模式和价值主张确实有些特别。

We've said we're gonna give all of our education content out for free, so it's a bit of a weird model and and and value proposition there.

坦白说，我们仍然有一些家长会说：嘿。

We still do have parents, to be totally honest with you, that are like, hey.

你知道，我的孩子已经能免费获得所有教育内容了。

You know, I get my kid gets all the education for free.

我不会为这个付费。

I'm not gonna pay for this.

这完全没问题。

That's totally fine.

我们内部决定的是，我们实际上是在跨越家长在教育支出和娱乐支出这两部分预算中的份额。

What we have decided internally is we're actually capturing not kind of straddling between the educational spend that parents have a share of wallet for and the entertainment spend as well.

所以我们的真正价值主张是：与其为Roblox或PlayStation游戏花钱，为什么不把这笔钱花在Prodigy上呢？

So our real value proposition is instead of paying for Roblox or a PlayStation game, why don't you spend that money on Prodigy instead?

而且你知道，你的孩子实际上是在学习东西。

And you know that your kid will actually be learning something.

顺便说一句，他们在家玩Prodigy的喜欢程度，丝毫不亚于玩其他一些视频游戏。

And by the way, they actually like playing Prodigy at home just as much as some of the other video games that they're playing.

我认为这个策略最令人兴奋的地方在于，它以一种最佳的方式迫使你与娱乐产品争夺注意力，而这一点我认为许多教育公司甚至觉得根本不可能做到。

I think that's what's so exciting about that strategy is that it forces you in in the best way to be competitive for mindshare with entertainment products, which is something that I think a lot of education companies don't feel like they even have a possibility of doing.

他们说：哦，孩子们回家后自然会去玩别的。

They say, oh, well, the kids are gonna go home.