第四乐章——命运之战

大家好。

Hi, everyone.

我是亚伦·科恩。

It's Aaron Cohen.

我们终于发布了第四季。

We've finally released our fourth season.

我不知道你们是否注意到了。

I don't know if you noticed.

前三季每季之间都有一年的间隔。

There was a year between each of the first three seasons.

而这第四季花了两年半的时间。

This new fourth season took two and a half years.

为什么呢？

Why?

因为资金短缺。

Because of gaps in funding.

我们希望能以创纪录的速度推出第五季。

We'd love to get out season five in record time.

希望您能加入Patreon上的'拥抱一切'社区，支持我们探索马勒交响曲的奇妙世界。

I hope you'll join the Embrace Everything community on Patreon to support our exploration into the wonderful world of Mahler symphonies.

从5美元到5000美元，每一份礼物都意义非凡。

From $5 to $5,000, every gift counts.

请访问theworldofgustavemahler.org并点击'支持'加入我们。

Please join us at theworldofgustavemahler.org and click on support.

节目说明里也有一个链接。

There's also a link in the show notes.

谢谢大家。

And thank you.

《拥抱一切：古斯塔夫·马勒的世界》第一季得以制作完成，得益于卡普兰基金会的慷慨资助。

Season one of Embrace Everything, The World of Gustav Mahler, was made possible by a generous grant from the Kaplan Foundation.

您可以在我们的网站上找到。

You can find a complete list of pieces of performers featured in this episode on our website, theworldofgustavmahler.org.

请在X和蓝天上关注我们，账号为world of mahler，在Facebook和Instagram上关注the world of Gustav Mahler。

Please follow us on x and blue sky at world of mahler and on Facebook and Instagram at the world of Gustav Mahler.

在本期节目中，我们将探讨马勒第一交响曲的第四乐章也是最后一个乐章，这也是我们本季的最后一集。

In this episode, we'll explore the fourth and final movement of Mahler's first symphony, which is also the last episode of our season.

我是亚伦·科恩。

I'm Aaron Cohen.

希望您能喜欢。

I hope you enjoy it.

马勒在第一交响曲的第四乐章中从贝多芬那里寻找灵感。

Mahler looked to Beethoven for inspiration in the fourth and final movement of the first symphony.

我们发现我们流浪的英雄陷入了困境。

We find our wayfaring hero in trouble.

马勒这样告诉我们。

Mahler tells us this.

每当他从生活的汹涌波涛中抬起头来，就会被命运的重击再次打倒。

Every time he raises his head above the surging waves of life, he is struck down again by the blows of fate.

那么马勒所说的命运是什么意思呢？

So what does Mahler mean by fate?

贝多芬创作第五交响曲时正开始失聪，而第五交响曲的著名主题被神化为命运敲门的声音。

Beethoven was beginning to go deaf when he wrote his fifth symphony, and the famous theme of the fifth has been mythologized to represent fate knocking on his door.

洛杉矶城市学院的音乐教授克里斯汀·李·根加罗。

Music professor Christine Lee Gengaro of Los Angeles City College.

命运这个概念并非我们所计划的，也非我们准备好的，而是那种出其不意抓住我们并考验我们的事物。

This idea of fate being not what we planned, not what we were ready for, but the thing that kind of catches us unawares and the thing that tests us.

因为我们无法为所有事情做好准备。

Because we can't prepare for everything.

对吧？

Right?

正是那些我们没准备好的事情，才会真正击垮我们。

It's it's the things that we're not ready for that really, really knock us down.

所以我认为这种音乐意义上的命运，无论对贝多芬还是马勒而言，都是对那些等待着我们的未知事物的统称。

So I think fate in this musical way, both for Beethoven and for Mahler, is the sort of catch all term for these things that are waiting out there for us.

贝多芬许多最伟大的作品都是在失聪后创作的。

Many of Beethoven's greatest works were written after he lost his hearing.

马勒也不得不克服严峻的挑战。

And Mahler too had to overcome serious challenges.

他的家庭存在虐待问题。

There was abuse in his family.

早年时期，他一直在经济上挣扎求生。

And early on, he struggled to make ends meet financially.

但更重要的是，从出生那一刻起，马勒就被死亡所包围。

But even more than that, from the moment he was born, Mahler was surrounded by death.

他是14个孩子中的一个，在不到20岁时就目睹了六个兄弟相继离世。

He was one of 14 children, and he witnessed six of his brothers pass away before he was even 20.

第四乐章捕捉了马勒直面命运挑战时的愤怒。

The fourth movement captures Mahler's fury as he challenges fate head on.

一声骇人的尖叫开启了终章乐章，此刻我们看到主人公被彻底抛弃，带着世间所有苦难投身这场最可怕的战斗。

A horrifying scream opens the final movement in which we now see our hero altogether abandoned with all the sorrows of this world to the most terrible of battles.

最初，这个乐章被命名为《从地狱到天堂》。

Originally, this movement was titled From the Inferno to Paradise.

玛丽莲·麦考伊。

Marilyn McCoy.

开头听起来确实像地狱般恐怖。

It really does sound hellish at the beginning.

这是对地狱的绝妙描绘。

It's a super portrayal of hell.

他想制造这种巨大的声音漩涡，实际上这种音效会像龙卷风一样逐渐增强。

He wants to make this kind of big whirlwind of sound, and it actually kind of revs up in this kind of tornado way.

马勒将在代表地狱的f小调黑暗音色与后来代表天堂的D大调辉煌明亮音色之间来回切换。

Mahler will toggle back and forth between the dark sound of f minor representing hell and later the triumphant brighter sound of d major representing paradise.

音乐教授克里斯汀·李·根加罗。

Music professor Christine Lee Gengaro.

普通听众并不具备绝对音感，他们不会说'哦，多么有趣'这样的话。

Your average listener does not have perfect pitch, isn't going to be able to say like, oh, how interesting.

F小调。

F minor.

你知道，人们不会用这种方式来表达这一点。

You know, that's that's not gonna be something that people are gonna articulate in that way.

但这确实是个出人意料的选择，也确实描绘出了一种更阴暗的感觉。

But it is an unexpected choice, and it does depict this darker feeling to it.

所以这两个关键领域之间的斗争，是一种根本性的斗争。

So this struggle between these two key areas, this is a sort of elemental struggle.

在一幅宏大的音乐画卷上描绘的生与死的斗争。

The struggle for life and death portrayed on a grand musical canvas.

在这场斗争中，马勒特别突出了铜管乐器的地位。

Throughout this struggle, Mahler gives extra prominence to the brass section.

费城交响乐团首席圆号手詹妮弗·蒙托内。

Jennifer Montone, principal horn of the Philadelphia Orchestra.

我认为最后一个乐章是目前为止最有趣、最疯狂也最令人身心振奋的。

I think the last movement is by far the most fun and most, like, crazy and physically exhilarating.

那种感觉有点像体育竞技体验，你会感到身体精疲力尽，就是那种感觉。

The way that it sort of feels a little bit like an athletic experience, like you feel physically exhausted and, you know, it's that type of thing.

随着风暴平息，音乐转向了不同的方向。

As the storm dies down, the music goes in a different direction.

马勒的挚友兼知己娜塔莉·鲍尔-莱希纳告诉我们这件事。

Mahler's great friend and confidant, Natalie Bauer Lechner, tells us this.

这个。

This.

末乐章中小提琴那段神圣优美旋律的灵感，是马勒在施塔格曼家晚宴上菜时突然想到的。

The idea for the divinely lovely melody of the violins in the last movement came to Mahler during an evening party at the Stagermans while supper was being served.

他走进隔壁房间记下旋律，发现自己正处于灵感迸发的状态。

He went into the next room to write it down and found himself in a full flood of inspiration.

这就是晚宴上让马勒为之倾倒的旋律。

Here's the melody that overwhelmed Mahler at the dinner party.

指挥家迈克尔·蒂尔森·托马斯。

Conductor Michael Tilson Thomas.

这是马勒整体作品中相当罕见的一种感伤音乐类型。

This is a particular kind of sentimental music rather unusual in Mahler's overall output.

与之最为相似的是早期作品《Blumina》，曾一度考虑将其纳入第一交响曲中。

The piece it most closely resembles is an earlier piece still called Blumina, which at one point or another was considered to be included in this piece in the first symphony.

《Blumina》是为夏季疗养胜地创作的庆典剧幸存片段，与弦乐演奏的这个主题具有相似的动人感伤特质。

Blumina was the surviving fragment of a pageant written for a summer health spa, and it's a very evocative sentimental piece similar in quality to this theme that's played by the strings.

标题《Blumina》意为花卉小品。

The title Blumina means flower piece.

以下是它的旋律片段。

Here's what it sounds like.

这段音乐原本是第一交响曲的第二乐章。

Originally, this was the second movement of the first symphony.

经过三次演出后，马勒决定永久删除该乐章。

After three performances, Mahler decided to remove it permanently.

但正如迈克尔·蒂尔森·托马斯所指出的，第四乐章这部分仍能听到它的回声。

But as Michael Tilson Thomas pointed out, there are still echoes of it in this part of the fourth movement.

马勒插入早期作品的手法，是将青春时期的记忆与梦想融入其中。

Mahler's insertion of earlier compositions is a way of pulling in memories and dreams from his youth.

玛丽莲·麦考伊。

Marilyn McCoy.

毫无疑问这是自传性质的。

There's no question that it's autobiographical.

他一生中有许多挣扎，特别是在创作这首交响曲期间，比如那些炽热的恋情——尤其是1883至1885年间与约翰娜·里希特相关的《旅人之歌》时期。

And there are many things that were struggles for him, especially at this time during the whole life of the symphony, like love affairs, you know, really passionate love affairs, especially the ones, around the songs of the wayfarer in 1883, '84, '85, Johanna Rieschter.

到1888年马勒完成第一交响曲时，他生命中又出现了另一位挚爱。

And by 1888, when Mahler was finishing the first symphony, there was another great love in his life.

玛丽安·冯·韦伯。

Marian von Weber.

她是已婚者，年长且育有三个孩子。

She was married, an older woman with three children.

马勒对她的爱激发了创作热情，促使他最终完成了这部交响曲。

Mahler's love for her inspired the fervent burst of inspiration that helped him complete the symphony.

马勒希望玛丽昂能与他私奔，但她始终无法下定决心这么做。

Mahler wanted Marion to run away with him, but she couldn't bring herself to do it.

那些令他心碎的分手经历，发生在他年少且深陷热恋之时。

Devastating breakups with people that when he was very young and he was very deeply in love with.

马勒相信爱情最终能帮助他反抗死亡，这解释了为何命运打击中交织着爱情主题。

Mahler believed that love would ultimately help him rebel against death, which explains why there's a love theme mixed in with the blows of fate.

实际上，那个爱情主题始终没有得到解决。

That love theme reaches no resolution, actually.

马勒最初将这部交响曲命名为《泰坦》，后来在删除《布卢明娜》乐章时也去掉了这个标题。

Mallory originally called this symphony Titan, a title he removed at the same time he removed the Blumina movement.

但这个名称却沿用了下来。

But the title has stuck.

这部交响曲至今仍被称为《泰坦》。

The symphony is still known as the Titan.

马勒最喜爱的书籍之一正是德国作家让··保罗的作品《泰坦》。

One of Mallory's favorite books was called Titan, a novel by the German author Jean Paul.

但马勒的标题更多与力量强大的形象有关，比如普罗米修斯、阿特拉斯这样的角色。

But Mahler's title has more to do with figures of great strength, characters like Prometheus, Atlas.

克里斯汀·李·根加罗说马勒在寻找某种非常特定的东西。

Christine Lee Gengaro says Mahler was looking for something very specific.

一个足够强大的人，能够承受这最后乐章的打击。

Someone who was strong enough to withstand the beating of this last movement.

但有一线希望。

But there is a glimmer of hope.

仔细聆听这段乐章。

Listen closely to this passage.

马勒在此埋下了一个音乐种子。

Mahler plants a musical seed here.

稍后马勒将把它转化为自己的突破性时刻之一。

Mahler will transform this into one of his breakthrough moments a little later.

但首先，更多的戏剧性发展。

But first, more drama.

玛丽莲·麦考伊。

Marilyn McCoy.

有点像瓦格纳式的单幕歌剧之类的。

Sort of like a Wagnerian opera in one movement or something.

有种歌剧般的戏剧感正在上演。

There's this kind of like this operatic sense of drama going on.

这场泰坦尼克号般的战斗仍在继续。

The titanic battle continues.

而且，马勒再次在此处插入了他早期作品的引用。

And, again, Mahler inserts a reference to one of his earliest compositions right here.

十年前，当马勒还是维也纳音乐学院的学生时，他创作了这部作品。

A decade earlier, when Mahler was a student at the conservatory in Vienna, he wrote this piece.

第一部让我真正成为马勒风格的作品是为合唱团、独唱者和管弦乐队创作的童话故事。

The first work in which I really came into my own as Mahler was a fairy tale for choir soloists and orchestra.

哀歌。

The song of lamentation.

我将这部作品编号为第一号作品。

I number that work opus one.

马勒开始创作这部宏伟作品时还是个青少年，其中已具备他独特风格的所有特征。

Mahler was a teenager when he began this massive work, which has all the hallmarks of his unique style.

他对铜管乐器的精湛运用，让我们预见到他后期将如何运用铜管声部。

His masterful use of the brass section gives us a premonition of how he'll use the brass later on.

马勒花了两年时间才完成这部作品。

It took Mahler two years to complete.

这部作品曾参加音乐学院比赛但未能获奖。

The piece was entered in a conservatory competition but didn't win.

直到创作完成二十多年后，这部作品才迎来首演。

It wasn't premiered until more than twenty years after it was composed.

在作品接近尾声时，包含了这个段落。

Towards the end of the piece, it contains this part.

稍微加快一点速度，听起来就与第四乐章的这个段落非常相似。

Speed it up a little bit, and it sounds very similar to this part in the fourth movement.

有一段过渡部分让我非常困扰。

There is a transition that gave me a lot of trouble.

音乐一次次从短暂的光明坠入最黑暗的绝望深渊。

Again and again, the music had fallen from brief glimpses of light into the darkest depths of despair.

现在必须赢得一场持久的凯旋胜利。

Now an enduring triumphal victory had to be won.

马勒将

Mahler will

在此处呈现音乐上的突破，一个将我们从地狱带入天堂的高潮，

give us a musical breakthrough here, a climax to take us from hell to paradise,

而他将用一个辉煌的D和弦来实现。

and he'll use a spectacular d chord to do it.

但我演奏的D和弦必须听起来像是从天而降，仿佛来自另一个世界。

My d chord, however, had to sound as though it had fallen from heaven, as though it had come from another world.

这个胜利时刻并不像表面看起来那么简单。

This triumphant moment isn't quite what it seems.

费城乐团的詹妮弗·蒙特内表示，第四乐章给我们来了个措手不及。

Jennifer Montone of the Philadelphia Orchestra says the fourth movement throws us a curveball.

第四乐章有个有趣的特点，结尾会重复出现两次。

The fourth has an interesting aspect where the end comes back twice.

你知道，当你以为真的成功了、有所成就时，正感到无比自豪——然后突然间一切就崩塌瓦解了。

You know, you think you've really made it and you've accomplished something and you're very, you know, you're feeling very proud and very, you know and then all of a sudden it just, like, erodes and falls apart.

接着会出现这段柔和的旋律。

And then there's this soft thing.

胜利正悄然消逝。

Victory slowly slips away.

马勒有他的理由来呈现这场虚假的凯旋。

Mahler had his reasons for giving us a false triumph.

我的意图是展现一场斗争——当主人公以为胜利近在咫尺时，实则最为遥远。

My intention was to show a struggle in which victory is furthest from the protagonist just when he believes it closest.

这正是所有精神斗争的本质，因为成为英雄或作为英雄绝非易事。

This is the nature of every spiritual struggle, for it is by no means so simple to become or to be a hero.

我们发现自己又回到了充满自然与号角的世界。

We find ourselves back in the world of nature and fanfares.

在交响乐余下的部分中，第一乐章的音乐元素将与第四乐章素材相互交融，克里斯汀·李·根加罗。

For the rest of the symphony, musical elements from the first movement will intermingle with the fourth movement material, Christine Lee Gengaro.

这种手法以绝妙的音乐方式统一了作品结构，几乎能在每个乐章中找到其他乐章的元素。

And what that does is it really unifies the structure of the work in a beautiful musical way, almost like you can find elements of the other movements in all movements.

就像观察人类细胞时能找到整个生物体的DNA，类似这种理念。

Like, you can look at a human cell and find the DNA for the entire organism, that kind of idea.

这里的管弦乐编曲非常简洁。

The orchestral writing is sparse here.

就在几分钟前，整个乐团还在全力演奏。

Just a few minutes earlier, the whole orchestra was going full tilt.

迈克尔·蒂尔森·托马斯说马勒在乐器资源配置上非常谨慎。

Michael Tilson Thomas says Mahler was very deliberate in managing his instrumental resources.

而他的创作过程——这一过程在第一交响曲创作期间仍在持续进行

And his process, a process which was still very much continuing in the course of the writing of the first symphony, was to figure out how to eliminate all extraneous notes so that the effect of the harmonies, the plungency, the pungency of the harmonies would be there.

但通过剔除所有不必要的音符，音乐获得了更多呼吸空间，这使得某些段落呈现出一种脆弱感。

But by eliminating all unnecessary notes, there was a lot more space, and that allowed parts of the music to have a kind of vulnerability.

那些在音乐中频繁出现的宏大、响亮、高潮迭起的骑兵冲锋式段落，正因为有如此漫长的静谧段落衬托，才显得更具冲击力。

The big, loud, climactic cavalry charges, whatever, that are so much there in the music, have greater significance because there are such long stretches of quiet music.

这段音乐中有种近乎冥想的静谧感，仿佛我们已决定放下命运之战，只是以孩童般的好奇凝视这个世界。

There's a stillness about this music that's almost meditational, as if we've decided to put aside the battle of fate and simply gaze at the world with childlike wonder.

马勒是对比手法的大师。

Mahler was a master of contrast.

波士顿交响乐团的比尔·哈德金斯。

Bill Hudgens of the Boston Symphony Orchestra.

他的精湛之处在于能将如此极端不同的情感纳入交响曲中——他将情感外露于表，所有情绪都清晰可辨，并将其推向极致。

He's virtuosic in that the way that he manages to include such drastically different emotions in his symphonies that he wears the emotions on his sleeve, and they're all there and then he takes them really to the extreme.

当他表达欢欣时，有时会达到近乎癫狂的喜悦；而表现悲伤时，又常常如死亡般沉重。

When he gets exuberant, it's just crazy exuberant sometimes and then when he gets sad, it's really death like a lot of times.

以及介于两者之间的一切情感层次。

And then everything in between.

当然，我认为他是最具情感表现力的作曲家之一，或者更准确地说，他音乐中的情感在听觉上如此鲜明，你根本无法忽视。

And certainly, I think he's one of the most emotional composers that or maybe a better way is to say that the emotion is so aurally really present in his music that you can't miss it really.

他就是这么直白地展现出来。

He just goes ahead and shows it.

他显然向我们展示了他最私密的思绪。

Mean he's showing us some of his most intimate thoughts clearly.

在我看来，艺术的终极目标必须始终是从悲伤中获得彻底解脱与超越。

The aim of art, as I see it, must always be the ultimate liberation from and transcendence of sorrow.

这个目标在我的第一部作品中得以实现，但实际上，胜利只有通过我奋斗的泰坦之死才能赢得。

This aim is achieved in my first, but in fact, the victory is won only with the death of my struggling titan.

第一交响曲的终章最终会推向一个狂野的高潮。

The first symphony's final section will eventually build to a wild climax.

音乐教授玛丽莲·麦考伊。

Music professor Marilyn McCoy.

第一交响曲的结尾是如此凯旋。

The end of the first is so triumphant.

比如，我绝不会想到我们的英雄已经死去。

Like, I would never have thought that our hero has died.

那是我最不可能想到会发生的事情。

That's the last thing that I would have thought happens.

但死亡不一定意味着失败，如果你曾怀着目标生活，坚守对你最重要的价值观。

But death doesn't have to be about defeat if you've lived life with purpose, held to the values that were most important to you.

克里斯汀·李·根加罗。

Christine Lee Gengaro.

甘愿睁着眼睛走向死亡，并说这是为了某种意义，我认为这正是马勒在这部作品中想要表达的。

Going to death willingly with your eyes open and saying this is for something, I think that's something that Mahler's getting at in this.

马勒的朋友娜塔莉·鲍尔-莱希纳强调的内容，暗示了对'挣扎的泰坦之死'的第二种解读。

A second interpretation of what Mahler might mean by the death of a struggling titan is hinted at by something Mahler's friend, Natalie Bauer Lechner, had stressed.

鲍尔-莱希纳提到的一个观点是，这位英雄其实是个年轻人。

One of the things that Bauer Lechner talks about is the idea of the hero of this being a young man.

对吧？

Right?

当他开始这段旅程时，他还是个年轻人。

When he starts the journey, he is a young man.

有趣的是，特别是在这终章的挣扎中，他可能失去的、真正消亡的正是这份青春。

And what's interesting is that coming out of this struggles of this final movement, especially, perhaps what he loses and and what dies actually is this youth.

随着青春的逝去，会迎来一场蜕变。

And with the loss of youth, there is a transformation.

即便你身体完好无损地度过这一切，你也已经失去了某些东西。

Even if you come out on the other side of this unscathed in body, you have lost something.

但最终，在结尾处会有种'我终于赢了'的感觉。

But ultimately, at the end, there's this feeling of I won finally.

对吧？

Right?

我最终得出了这个结论：我战胜了自己的恐惧。

I came to this conclusion at the end where I was triumphant over my fears.

我为更崇高的理想做出了贡献。

I helped serve the greater good.

这其中蕴含着无尽的美。

There's a lot of beauty in that.

当死亡时刻临近，无论是真实的死亡还是象征性的死亡，我们最后一次凝视我们的英雄。

As the moment of death approaches, whether a real death or a symbolic one, we take one last look at our hero.

马勒通过重复第一乐章中最具戏剧性的段落，将我们带回原点，随后在终章的宏大突破中，我们的英雄获得了盛大的告别。

Bringing us full circle, Mahler repeats the most dramatic passage from the first movement before the grand breakthrough of the finale when our hero is accorded a huge farewell.

马勒这样描述

Mahler put it

道：

this way.

每当命运看似被他摆脱并掌控时，他却一次又一次遭到当头棒喝。

Again and again, he gets knocked on the head by fate whenever he appears to pull himself out of it and become its master.

唯有在死后，当他超越了自己，才赢得这场胜利——辉煌的《胜利颂歌》。

Only in death, after he has overcome himself, does he achieve the victory, magnificent Victory Chorale.

现在请听《胜利颂歌》，这最后的突破将带我们抵达天堂。

And here's the Victory Chorale, the final breakthrough, taking us to paradise.

在乐曲的尾声，马勒要求整个圆号声部站立演奏。

At the very end of the piece, Mahler asks the entire horn section to stand up while playing.

费城交响乐团的首席圆号手詹妮弗·蒙特罗内表示，他将这一要求写进了乐谱。

Jennifer Montone, principal horn of the Philadelphia Orchestra, says he writes this into the score.

这是我唯一能想到会这样做的曲子。

It's kind of the only piece I can think of that has that happen.

这么做有点疯狂。

It's sort of crazy to do that.

但这样演奏起来特别过瘾。

It's a blast to do that.

马勒的巨人凯旋般冲入天堂。

Mahler's titan triumphantly storms into heaven.

最终，马勒用死亡为我们献上了一曲炽热的生命赞歌。

And in the end, Mahler uses death to give us a blazing celebration of life.

您正在收听的是《拥抱万物：古斯塔夫·马勒的世界》。

You've been listening to Embrace Everything, the world of Gustav Mahler.

我是主持人亚伦·科恩。

I'm your host, Aaron Cohen.

本节目也由我负责撰稿和制作。

I also wrote and produced the program.

古斯塔夫·马勒的配音由詹姆斯·卢里担任，娜塔莉·鲍尔-莱希纳的配音由劳拉·格拉克斯曼担任。

James Lurie was the voice of Gustav Mahler, and Laura Grackmans was the voice of Natalie Bauer Lechner.

剪辑工作得到了杰米·卡茨、保罗·托马森、马伦·拉齐安、威尔·伯杰和约翰·谢弗的协助。

I had editing assistance from Jamie Katz, Paul Thomason, Maren Lazian, Will Berger, and John Schafer.

节目混音由里克·关负责。

The program was mixed by Rick Kwan.

参与录制的工程师包括卡内基音乐厅工作室的莱谢克·沃伊切赫和冈部法子、广播基金会的本·埃尔曼、芝加哥WBEZ电台的科林·阿什米德·博比特、圣路易斯KWMU电台的丹尼斯·本特利。

Engineers included Leszek Wojciech and Noriko Okabe at Carnegie Hall Studios, Ben Elman at the Radio Foundation, Colin Ashmid Bobbitt at WBEZ in Chicago, Dennis Bentley at KWMU in St.

以及维也纳ORF电台的安娜·昆齐奥。

Louis, and Anna Kunzio at the ORF in Vienna.

特别感谢卡普兰基金会的埃琳娜·卡普兰和玛塞拉·席尔瓦。

A very special thank you to Elena Kaplan and Marcella Silva at the Kaplan Foundation.

还要感谢丽莎·詹妮德、特伦·洛特、帕斯卡尔·维姆、米歇尔·安德烈·拉努、阿曼达·奥尔泽夫斯基和玛丽昂·范登布亨，他们都为本节目的采访组织工作提供了帮助。

Thanks also to Lisa Janed, Terren Lott, Pascal Wieme, Michelle Andre Lanou, Amanda Olzewski, and Marion van den Buchen, all of whom helped organize interviews for this program.

同样感谢哥伦比亚大学普伦蒂斯·霍尔学院的布拉德·加登、巴德学院的艾琳·泽德拉赫，特别是玛丽莲·麦科伊。

Thanks as well to Brad Garden at Prentice Hall at Columbia University, Irene Zedlacher at Bard College, and especially to Marilyn McCoy.

我得到了詹妮弗·巴尼特、杰森·斯塔尔、卢·斯莫利、拉里·约瑟夫森、凯瑟琳·德罗万、德米·威廉姆斯和克雷格·卡卢萨的大力支持。

I had terrific support from Jennifer Barnett, Jason Starr, Lou Smolly, Larry Josephson, Kathleen Drowan, Demi Williams, and Craig Calusa.

如果您喜欢我们节目中听到的音乐，完整的曲目和演奏者列表可以在我们的网站theworldofgustavmahler.org上找到。

If you've enjoyed the music you've heard in our programs, a complete list of pieces and performers can be found on our website, theworldofgustavmahler.org.

下次再见，我是亚伦·科恩。

Until next time, I'm Aaron Cohen.