#332 人工智能能否增强民主？政府服务的未来

我认为，这是第一次，公民们感到或许有人已经被移出了决策循环和决策过程，这引发了人们对公民申诉或上诉权利的真正担忧。

I think because for the first time, citizens feel that perhaps there are humans that have been taken out of decision loops and decision cycles, and that there that creates real fear around what the citizens' right of recourse or appeal is.

欢迎收听《拥抱数字化转型》，我们将探讨人们如何应对政策，以及技术如何推动有效变革。

Welcome to Embracing Digital Transformation, where we explore how people process policy and technology drive effective change.

这是博士。

This is Doctor.

达伦，企业架构师主管、教育家、作家，最重要的是，您的主持人。

Darren, Chief Enterprise Architect, educator, author, and most importantly, your host.

在本期节目中，我能加强民主吗？

On this episode, can I strengthen democracy?

与特邀嘉宾埃森哲全球管理合伙人凯瑟琳·弗里德ay探讨政府服务的未来。

The future of government services with special guest Catherine Friday, Global Managing Partner at EY.

凯瑟琳，欢迎来到本节目。

Catherine, welcome to the show.

达伦，非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me, Darren.

能来到这里我感到非常兴奋。

It's a thrill to be here.

嘿，Catherine，每个来我节目的嘉宾都知道，每个人都是超级英雄，而每个超级英雄都有自己的背景故事。

Hey, so, Catherine, everyone that comes on my show knows that there's everyone that comes on my show is a superhero and every superhero has a background story.

所以，Catherine，你的秘密是什么？

So, Catherine, what's your secret no.

我不会问你的真实身份，但你的背景故事是什么？

I won't ask your secret identity, but what's your background story?

哇。

Wow.

Darren，非常感谢你。

Darren, thank you so much.

这是个非常好的问题，我感到非常荣幸，能成为你之前邀请过的众多杰出嘉宾中的一员。

It's it's a great question, and I feel really honored to be amongst the pantheon of of of of great speakers that you've had on before.

我当然不敢妄称自己是那些伟大的人物之一。

I certainly would be very reluctant to, you know, to to consider myself, you know, one of the greats.

但就我的背景故事以及我所从事的工作和热爱它的原因而言，能够领导全球政府与基础设施业务，是我极大的喜悦与荣幸。

But in terms of my background story and a little bit about about what I do and why I love doing it, it is my my great joy and privilege, to be leading, government and infrastructure practice globally.

我们是一个由全球约四万名员工组成的团队，每天都在为创造长期公共价值而努力，这是我们所有人深怀热忱的事业。

We're a team of around 40,000 people around the world who show up every day in the delivery of long term public value, and that is something that we are all deeply passionate about.

这与我内心的核心价值观深深契合，我非常珍惜能够借助埃森哲这一卓越平台，将人们凝聚在一起，共同创造惠及人类、社会和公众的持久遗产，这些遗产有望传承数代。

And it's something that speaks deeply to my own core values, and I love the fact that I have the opportunity to use the phenomenal platform that is EY, to bring groups of people together to create legacies in human and social and citizen interest that hopefully endure for for generations to come.

这种类型的工作，才是让我真正充满激情的，尤其是在埃森哲之外。

That's the sort of work that really lights my fire, outside of EY.

我还有幸担任墨尔本公园的董事，这个地方因作为澳大利亚公开赛的举办地而闻名，想必您的不少听众最近刚观看过这项赛事。

I also have the great good fortune to be a director of Melbourne Park, perhaps most famous as the home of the Australian Open, which a number of your listeners may recently have tuned into and and and seen.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，这又是另一种方式，让我能够将我的使命付诸实践——在这个案例中，亲身参与打造基础设施遗产，为来自不同国家、不同背景的人们提供一个相聚的场所，共同庆祝他们热爱并深信不疑的事物，无论是澳网这样的体育赛事，还是现场音乐、演出、舞蹈或戏剧等。

And so, again, that's that's another way that I have the opportunity to, I guess, bring my purpose to life a little bit to, in that instance, literally be part of creating infrastructure legacies that, you know, provide a place where so many different people from so many different walks of life in different countries can come together and celebrate things that they all love and care deeply about, whether it is sport in the Australian Open, whether it is live music, or live entertainment or dance or theater or whatever it is.

墨尔本公园是南半球最大的体育与娱乐综合区。

Melbourne Park is the largest sport and entertainment precinct in the Southern Hemisphere.

所以我们有机会主办一些非凡的体验

So we get to play host to to some phenomenal experiences

很多非常

To lots of really

酷的事情。

cool stuff.

是的。

Yeah.

社区建设。

Community building.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

说得对。

That's exactly right.

这真的非常有趣。

It's it's it's lots and lots of fun.

所以，我认为，如果我有什么超能力的话，那应该是将人们凝聚在一起，共同创造长期的公共价值。

So I guess, to the extent that I have a superpower, hopefully it's bringing people together, in the service and creation of of long term public value.

好的。

Okay.

我想就此谈谈，因为这很独特。

So I want to talk a little bit about that because it's unique.

通常当我们与其他人交谈时，他们都会谈论数字方面的东西，我们谈软件，谈……

Most of the time when we talk to people there, they all talk about digital stuff and we talk about software and we talk about.

我。

I.

T。

T.

而你真正谈论的是物理世界及其与公众、与人的互动。

And things like this, you're really talking about the physical world and its interaction with constituents, with people.

但这其中有一个数字底层架构，尤其是与A有关的部分。

But there's a digital backplane to that, and especially with A.

I。

I.

它在这个领域正逐渐显现出来。

Raising its its head in this.

这个领域正在发生很多事。

There's there's a lot going on in that space.

你觉得这个领域与传统IT领域有什么不同？

What do you see is different in this space than with, a traditional IT space?

它有什么独特之处？

What what's unique about it?

这是一个非常有趣的空间，达伦。

It's a fascinating it's a fascinating space, Darren.

你提到的这一点完全正确，数字基础设施和我们的许多物理基础设施一样，都是关键基础设施。

The the point that you make is absolutely right, that digital infrastructure, is critical infrastructure in exactly the same way that a lot of our physical infrastructure as well.

而且，越来越多的公民严重依赖这种数字基础设施——其中越来越多地包含人工智能——来获得公平、平等与正义，以及我们作为国家公民所必需的各种服务。

And increasingly, of course, citizens are critically reliant and crucially reliant upon this digital infrastructure, which increasingly includes AI, to access fairness and equity and justice and the sorts of services that all of us as citizens of our nations need.

我们通常甚至意识不到自己需要这些服务，直到真正需要的那一刻。

We often don't even notice that we need them until those moments that we do.

但当我们需要时，我们期望政府能在我们需求的时刻及时响应，并以清晰、公平、透明的方式提供服务，或许还能提供申诉或救济的途径。

But when we do, we expect our governments to meet us at our point of need, and to do so in ways that are clear and fair and transparent, and where perhaps perhaps we have, you know, course of recourse or appeal.

我认为，政府在人工智能方面面临的一个真正挑战是，技术发展得太快了，以至于政府在努力思考如何将这种关键基础设施用于服务公民的同时，还要应对如何在自身部门、官僚机构和机构内部部署人工智能的难题。

And I think one of the real challenges that governments have with AI is that it is happening so fast that governments are really challenged with both how do they deploy AI internally within their own departments and bureaucracies and agencies at the same time that they think about how they deploy this critical infrastructure in the service of citizens and constituents as well.

我认为，目前大多数政府还没有一个清晰的公共叙事来阐述这一点。

And I don't think that most governments have a really clear public narrative about that yet.

那么，这个叙事中缺失了什么？

So, I mean, what's what's missing from that narrative?

为什么这对他们来说是个如此严重的问题？

Why why why is that such an issue for them?

我的意思是，这本该是理所当然的，毕竟政府几十年、甚至在某些情况下几百年来一直在为选民提供服务。

I mean, it should be I mean, they've been serving their constituents for decades hundreds of years in some cases.

嗯嗯。

Mhmm.

为什么会有这么大的脱节？

Why is there such a disconnect?

你觉得为什么会这样？

Why do you think that is?

确实存在一种真实而合理的担忧，即关于我的生活、生计以及我和我的家人所能获得的服务的决策，都是由一些超出人类监督和控制的代理做出的。

And there is a genuine and legitimate concern that decisions about my life and my livelihood and the service access that I get, and and and my family gets are all being made by agents that are sort of beyond human, oversight and and and control.

当然，事实并非如此，但这正是政府目前面临的机遇。

And, of course, that's not true at all, but that is the opportunity that governments have right now.

不。

No.

没错。

Exactly.

正是如此。

That's exactly right.

但我认为，当政府在透明度方面不够主动时，这种恐惧和不信任就会产生，比如明确说明：我们将改变这一流程，AI将被纳入这一流程中。

But but I think this this sort of fear and distrust happens when governments aren't very much on the front foot about, you know, that level of transparency of saying, so we are going to change this process, and this is where AI is going to be included in this process.

这将意味着什么。

This is what this will mean.

你的数据将如何被使用，以及当你面临针对你的决策时，你将如何与人类互动，继续提出申诉或质疑。

This is how your data will be used, and this is how you will then be able to engage with a human and continue to appeal, or or question decisions when they are made about you.

我认为，在全球许多国家，包括我自己的祖国澳大利亚，我们曾经历过一些情况：公民成为由AI做出的决策或结果的承受者，却难以知道如何申诉这些决定，有时甚至合理地感到，这些决定对他们及其家庭造成了切实的负面影响。

And I think in in a number of countries around the world, my own home in Australia, you know, we have had our own, situations with governments where citizens have been on the receiving end of decisions or outcomes that have been made by AI and have struggled to know how to appeal those decisions and have felt, in some instances, justifiably, that the decisions that were made, had a real negative impact, on them, and and and on their families.

因此，这些早期的负面经历，再次合理地引发了关于权利的公众讨论。

And so those early negative experiences have, again, understandably created a public discourse about the Right.

AI在这些系统和决策中的滥用。

Misuse of AI in these, in in these systems and in these decisions.

当然，公民没有选择不参与

And, of course, no citizen has the option to opt out of engaging the

政府，没错。

government Exactly.

就像我们作为顾客那样。

In the way that we might as customers.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，这引出了我另一个问题。

So so this so this brings up another question I have for you.

如果政府只需要在使用AI、使用人类、使用哪些数据时更好地解释清楚，

If government just needs to explain better when AI is being used, when humans are being used, what data is being used.

那他们为什么没有这么做呢？

Why haven't they done it?

是因为他们还不清楚该如何利用AI吗？

Is it because they don't know yet exactly how to how to leverage AI?

还是因为他们担心选民会不喜欢？

Or is it they're afraid that their constituents will not like it?

他们害怕无法连任。

They're afraid of being reelected.

你知道，有这么多这么多。

You know, there's all these these.

那么，你认为这背后的关键是什么？

So what do you think is is the crux behind it?

我认为，很多原因在于我们政府在面对那些尚未完全掌握答案的问题时，风险承受能力不足。

I think a lot of it comes down to the risk appetites that a lot of our governments have to lean into conversations where they don't yet have all the answers.

但当然，在这个背景下，在我们的环境中，目前还没有人掌握所有答案。

But, of course, in this context, in our environments, no one yet has all the answers.

没错。

Exactly.

只要政府一直等到拥有一个完整、100%准确的数据集才愿意发声，那他们就得等上非常非常长的时间。

And as long as governments wait until they have a complete 100% accurate, you know, dataset to speak to, you know, that that they're gonna be waiting for a very, very long time.

而这样的数据集目前并不存在。

That that doesn't yet exist.

因此，我认为，无论是民选还是任命的官员，都倾向于在完全确信自己所说的内容之前，不愿公开表态，甚至都不愿首先承认：整个领域正在飞速发展。

And so I think a lot of both elected and unelected officials are reluctant to go on the public record, until they feel themselves 100% confident about what it is they're going to say without even leading with with that as a statement of fact, you know, in terms of saying this whole domain is evolving incredibly quickly.

但话虽如此，政府今天将采取这些措施，以促进公平、平等、速度和效率，以及通过更主动地运用人工智能为公民服务带来的一切潜在好处。

But with that said, these are the actions that this government is going to take today in the interests of improving fairness, equity equity, speed, efficiency, you know, all of the benefits that could accrue to citizen delivery as part of more proactive engagement with AI.

但正如我所说，人们普遍不愿在公共场合发声，直到他们感到100%有把握，并且认为自己已掌握所有信息——而这自然意味着技术正在超越他们。

But, yeah, as I said, I I I think there is real reluctance for people to go on the public record until they feel 100% confident and feel that they have all of the information at their fingertips, which, of course, means that the technology is is getting away from them.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

所以这是一个问题。

So this is a this is a problem.

我的意思是，我们该如何解决这个问题？

I mean, how do we solve this problem?

因为政府由于这些风险而不愿采取行动。

Because government's not willing to be because of all those risks.

对吧？

Right?

我不敢乱说，因为一旦说错，就会成为公开记录，人人都会说我是个傻子，或者说我骗了它。

I don't want to say the wrong thing, because if I do, you know, it's public record and everyone will say I'm an idiot or they'll say you lied to it.

有太多借口了，对吧？

There's so many excuses, right?

那我们该怎么办？

So what are we going to do?

你说得对，人工智能的发展不会等政府。

Because you're right, AI is is moving forward with or without government.

所以政府正越来越落后。

So they're falling further and further behind.

那我该怎么办？

So what's what do I do?

什么样的解决方案？

What kind of solution?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我认为，那些在全球范围内在这方面表现优异、且公民对政府人工智能高度参与的政府，都是从小处着手的，比如在低风险领域，但必须有明确的公共服务需求。

So I think I think governments governments that are doing really well with this around the world and where there is a high level of citizen engagement with government AI have started small, so if you like, on low risk areas, but where there is a clear public service need.

这可能仅仅涉及处理速度的提升，或者仅仅是改善公民与政府服务部门的互动。

And it might just be around speed of processing, or it might just be around improving citizen interaction with, you know, gov government, service delivery agencies.

所以他们从一个非常明确的问题入手。

So they start at the point where there is a really clear exam question to answer.

系统中已经存在明显的矛盾。

There is clear tension in the system already.

他们公开明确地说明自己正在采取什么措施来解决这一具体痛点。

They are very clear publicly about what they are doing to remedy that particular pain point.

他们从设计之初就融入了人工监督机制。

They build human oversight into it by design.

他们明确公开地表明自己正在这样做。

They are very clear about the fact that they are doing that.

他们用通俗易懂的英语明确说明，如果公民希望申诉，将如何获得救济途径。

They are very clear in plain English about explaining how citizens will have recourse to appeal if they so wish.

他们确保数据主权，即数据保留在本国境内。

They make sure that the data is sovereign, so it is, the data is kept onshore.

以此缓解人们对自身数据可能出现在世界何处的担忧。

So to help mitigate people's concerns about how and where in the world their own data might might be showing up.

当取得成功或积累经验时，他们也会明确地公开这些信息。

And then as as and when there are successes or lessons learned, they are really clear about that as well.

因此，他们会从试点项目开始。

So they will start with pilots.

然后他们会请独立专家对这些试点项目进行审计，并公开审计结果，以及基于这些结果他们将如何改进。

They will then have those pilots independently and expertly audited, and they are then really public about the, findings from those from those audits and where and where on the basis of that they are going to be doing better.

这些政府发现，公开透明地披露信息——即使早期存在挑战——比那种沉默的后台失败（最终被泄露或媒体曝光）更能有效建立公民信任。

And those governments have found that that a very public and transparent, disclosure, even where there are early challenges, are so much stronger at building citizen trust than kind of, you know, silent back of house failure that is ultimately picked up, you know, by a leak somewhere or there's something in the media.

而那种在沉默中、在封闭环境中、在黑箱里发生的失败，会迅速破坏公众信任。

And failure in, sort of in silence and be and behind closed doors and in a black box undermines public trust so fast.

所以，我理解你的意思是，与其不透明地做事，把问题掩盖起来，不如公开透明地展示错误，因为人们对于前者会更宽容一些，对吧？

So so what you're what I'm hearing you say is it's better to be transparent and show the world the mistakes, because there's a little bit more forgiveness in doing that than just trying to trying to not be transparent and do things kind of under the cover or sweep things under the rug, as as we say, right?

当人工智能出错时，或者更准确地说，这简直像是一段共同的旅程。

When AI fails or when, you know, instead, it's almost like a journey together.

让我们政府和公民一起尝试这个新事物吧。

Hey, let's try this new thing out together as a government and the citizenry.

我理解得对吗？

Is that is that am I getting that right?

是的，没错。

That's that's yep.

完全正确。

That that's exactly right.

完全正确。

That's exactly right.

当然，和所有这些事情一样，要从小规模的概念验证和小型沙盒开始，并确保始终有人工监督。

And of course, you know, as as with all of these things, to start small with small proofs of concepts, small sandboxes, and to and and to ensure that there is always human oversight involved in Oversight.

决策过程直接影响公民对政府服务的接收或体验。

Decision making where where those decisions have a direct bearing on citizens', receipt or experience of government services.

因此，首先让人工智能发挥其在系统级数据分析方面的优势，以此实现更公平、更快速的公民服务交付，同时让公民和社区有机会逐步建立自身参与政府事务的能力，而政府也能借此提升自身的治理能力、员工技能，并确保这些系统具备可审计性和高度透明的公共审计机制。

So to start with, if you like, AI playing to its strengths around, you know, system wide data analytics and use that to, you know, provide for fairer, faster citizen service delivery in the first instance and for, therefore, both citizens, communities to have their the the opportunity to build up their own understanding and muscle in engaging with governments in this way at the same time as governments have the opportunity to upskill their own muscle around, you know, governance and workforce upskilling and, you know, creating auditability, you know, and obviously highly transparent public auditability in these systems as well.

我认为，治理这一部分至关重要，达伦。

And the governance piece, I think, is hugely important, Darren.

很高兴你提到了员工和相关治理问题。

I'm glad you brought up the work the workforce, right, and and governance around all of this.

没错？

Right?

因为在我看来，这是我们尚未讨论的另一个方面——政府工作人员。

Because to me, that's the other aspect that we haven't talked about yet, which is the government workers.

他们担心自己的工作，对吧？

They're worried about their jobs, right?

我会不会变成一个AI独裁者？

Am I going be an AI overlord now?

因为我需要监督AI完成我的工作。

Because I need to oversee AI doing my job.

我的意思是，当我们把IT外包给新兴经济体时，这种说法我们以前就听过。

I mean, we've heard this before when we outsourced IT to emerging economies.

我记得九十年代的时候，人们说：‘我们要把你送到印度去培训你的接班人。’

When I remember this in the nineties, people were, oh, we're sending you to India to go train your replacements.

那真是太感谢了。

Well, thank you very much.

嗯，这也是AI采用及其相关治理的另一个方面。

Know, that's I mean, that's another aspect of this adoption and the governance around that.

这种情况下我们该怎么办？

What do we do in this case?

因为政府必须采用AI，毕竟效率确实存在。

Because government has to has to adopt AI as the efficiencies are there.

我们知道、看到了，或者至少我们认为我们看到了。

We know we see that or at least we think we see that.

是的

Yeah.

那么我该怎么处理呢？因为我在这上面有几个不同的维度，我们现在讨论的只是第二个。

So how do I because I've I've I've got two I've got several aspect dimensions on this, and this is just the second one we're talking about.

是的

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

而且你看。

And look.

劳动力这一部分确实没错，我认为我们将会看到，不仅在公共部门，私营部门的各组织中，人力资源负责人和首席人才官们实际上都会逐步接纳并承认智能代理作为团队成员，参与提供各种商品和服务，无论我们从经济的哪个领域来看都是如此。

The the work the workforce element is is absolutely right, and I think we're gonna see that the heads of HR and chief people officers across not just public, but private sector organizations as well actually sort of, you know, building in or acknowledging agents, within sort of, you know, the within the workforce and and having agents as team members, in in delivering, you know, goods and services regardless of of of where we look in the economy.

不过，大多数发达国家劳动力的一个特点是，政府和公共部门的劳动力老龄化速度比……更快。

One of the characteristics of the workforces in most in in most developed countries, though, is that the the government and public sector workforce is, if you like, aging aging out faster than Yeah.

这在更广泛的人口群体中也是如此。

Is is true of of the population more broadly.

所以，我们正接近政府和公共部门员工总数的峰值，与此同时，全球人口仍在持续增长。

So we are, you know, we we are, you know, approaching, almost, you know, peak government and public sector workforce headcount, at the same time as, you know, populations around the world are continuing to grow.

因此，政府和公共部门需要完成的工作量在增加，而这些 workforce 的人力构成却在实际缩减。

So the work that government and public sector agencies need to do is expanding at the same time as the, human composition of those, workforces is in fact contracting.

所以这里有几点需要注意。

So there are a couple of things here.

第一，政府迫切需要以更优、更快、更高效的方式向公民提供现有服务，我认为人工智能必须成为这一过程的一部分。

One, there is a genuine need, for, better, faster, more efficient ways for governments to deliver their existing services to citizens, and I think AI absolutely has to be has to be part of that.

其次，还有一个相关方面，就是提升现有员工的技能，使他们能够更好地利用人工智能为公民服务。

And then there is the related piece of also upskilling the existing workforce to be able to better deploy AI in the service of citizens as as well.

因此，关于技能提升的这部分工作必须实时进行。

And so that piece around upskilling is something that needs to happen in real time.

就像教育领域常说的‘工作整合学习’，因为我们不可能让大批员工同时离岗，花上十二个月去学习人工智能的基础知识、提升技能和接受培训，就像以前几代人那样。

So, like, in the in the language of the education sector to talk very much about work integrated learning because, of course, we can't take whole swathes of employees offline all at once to go and do, like, twelve months of, you know, AI familiarization and upskilling and learning and training and all of that in the way that we would have done in previous generations.

相反，我们需要让这批员工几乎实时地发展他们的技能。

Instead, we need this cohort of, of workers to, you know, be developing their skills pretty much in real time.

每周五，他们使用AI的技能都比周一早上更强了。

And that come every Friday, they are more skilled at using AI than they were on Monday morning.

因此，人力资源主管等人的职责之一，就是在每个工作周的框架内设计这样的机制，让员工能够轻松地培养这些技能。

And so, again, one of the jobs of of of, you know, of chief people officers and and the like is to, design for that within the construct of every workweek, and to make it easy for the workforce to develop these skills.

当然，这还涉及到AI代理本身。

And, of course, it's agents themselves.

正是AI本身将真正推动这一过程的发生。

It's the it's the AI itself that will actually help for this to happen.

因此，AI在某种程度上既是主题或内容，也是帮助人们熟悉这些内容的工具，但所有这些都必须实时进行。

So in that way, the AI is kind of both the the the topic or the subject and the the enabler of of of becoming familiar with, you know, with the content, but all of that needs to be happening in real time.

只有通过培养这支 workforce 的能力，这些公务员才能掌握必要的技能，从而制定出规范AI在整个经济领域部署的监管和政策框架。

And it's only by developing that that workforce muscle that those public servants, or civil servants themselves then have the skills that they need to be able to regulate and create the policy framework within which AI is gonna be deployed across the rest of the economy as well.

当然，这正是政府和公共部门 workforce 与商业部门 workforce 的一个重大区别。

And, of course, that's one of the real differences in government and public sector workforces compared to commercial workforces.

公共部门必须抓住这一机遇，在为全体公民服务的同时，也肩负起为AI在更广泛领域部署建立法律、监管和政策环境的责任。

The public sector boast has to grip up on this and use it in the service of all citizens at the same time as it is also responsible for creating the legislative and regulatory and policy environment in which AI is gonna be deployed more broadly.

因此，在这种情况下，它需要同时扮演两种角色，而且这两种角色都至关重要。

So it has two hats to wear, in this context, and they are two massive hats.

而且它必须同时承担这两种角色。

And it's needing to wear them both at the same time.

这真的很有趣，因为在我看来，政府工作人员将不得不掌握一些非常独特的技能，这些技能不仅涉及人工智能，还包括批判性思维——我不太喜欢用‘预测未来’这个词，但确实需要预测新技术带来的影响，这比过去要求高得多。过去我们在政府里遇到问题，只是简单地派人去解决。

So that's really interesting because it sounds to me like government workers are going to have to have some very unique skills that maybe they don't have now, not just around AI, but around critical thinking, I hate to say predicting a future, but predicting the impact of new technologies coming in and a lot more than they have in in the past, where we just threw people at problems in the past in government.

我只需要多雇一些人来帮忙处理事务就行了。

I'll just hire, you know, a bunch of people to help, you know, process things.

AI可以完成大量这类工作，因此未来的工作技能将大不相同。

AI can do a lot of that stuff so that the job skills are going to be very different in in the future moving forward.

这正是我的看法。

That's what it sounds like to me.

你觉得对吗？

Does that sound right?

我觉得你说得完全正确，达伦。

I I think that's exactly right, Darren.

批判性思维。

Critical thinking.

当然。

Absolutely.

我越来越多地看到人们在思考伦理、道德判断和哲学，或者说，人类和人性的角色与责任是什么？

And something that I am seeing more and more is thinking around ethics and moral judgment and philosophy, if you like, and what is the what are the roles and responsibilities of humans and humanity?

在公共部门的背景下，我们如何确保我们的国家或国家价值观成为设计到智能体工作中的决策框架的一部分，从而建立起一种道德、伦理或国家价值观的基础——作为公民，我期望我的政府在涉及权利、准入、公平、服务等所有这些事项时能考虑到这些因素；而大型语言模型本身并不天然具备这些。

And in the public sector context, how do we make sure that our nation or national values are part of the decision making frameworks that are being designed into the work of agents so that there is the, if you like, the the the moral or ethical or national values foundation that as a citizen, I would expect my government to be taking into account when it makes decisions about rights, access, fairness, services, all of those sorts of things, but which, of course, LLMs on their own don't innately have.

因此，我们正在看到世界各地一些主权人工智能的开发案例，比如‘海狮’。

So, you know, we we are seeing some examples, around the world of sovereign AI being developed, like Sea Lion.

我不知道你是否听说过‘海狮’。

I I don't know if you've heard of Sea Lion.

这是新加坡政府开发的大型语言模型。

That's the sort of the the Singapore government's LLM that has developed.

是的。

Yeah.

这明确地设计用于适应新加坡的法律、传统以及居住在新加坡的34个语言群体。

Which, you know, explicitly, is designed to accommodate the the LAW law, the LORE law, and the 34 language groups that live within Singapore.

我认为，公民自然期望他们的政府在公共参与中体现这样的道德准则。

And I think, you know, citizens, you know, have that expectation of of, you know, the, like, the the moral parameters, that their governments will bring, in terms of, you know, of their broader public engagement.

你是否认为，由于大型语言模型本身具有创造性，但当它们被道德准则、规则和约束所限制时——比如新加坡的做法——它们反而会更加稳定？

Do do you see because because LLMs tend to be they can be creative, but when you constrain them with, with moral guidelines and with rules and constraints like what they've done in Singapore, they tend to be more.

更能抵御我们在世界各地看到的政治压力和变动。

Resilient to political pressure and change that we see in in in countries all over the world.

没错。

Right.

这其实是一个有趣的哲学问题。

So this is an interesting philosophical question.

是的。

Yeah.

但你是否认为，大型语言模型或许能成为国家道德与价值观的守护者，而不是像我们全球所见的那样，让这些价值随政治波动而频繁更迭？

But do you see that maybe LLM's will keep the morals of a country and their and their values of a country kind of be the gatekeeper of those instead of it shifting like we've seen, like we've seen all over the world?

你知道，这个国家会来回摇摆。

You know, the that the country, you know, shifts back and forth.

它在政治党派之间，或者在不同的道德价值观之间，像钟摆一样来回摆动。

It does that swinging pendulum between, you know, the political parties or between different moral values as as it goes through.

你认为这种情况会发生吗？它会像一个减震器一样吗？

Do you think that will happen, that it will be almost like a dampener?

这是一个哲学问题。

It's a philosophical question.

你看。

It's look.

这是一个巨大的哲学问题。

It's it's a huge philosophical question.

我认为，如果它们的设计初衷如此，那么这种潜力是存在的。

I think the potential is there if that is what they are designed to do.

正如我们所知，人工智能会致力于优化它被设计去完成的事情。

And as we know, AI will seek to optimize what it has been designed to do.

如果这就是它的设计方式，如果我们明确要求它这么做，并且专门让它实现这个目标，那么我认为这确实是它能够发挥作用的一个功能。

And if that is how it is designed, if that is the ask that we have of it and we set it up specifically to do that, then I do think that is a function that it could help serve.

我认为这进而引出了关于未来如何对人工智能进行审计的有趣问题。

And I think that then raises interesting questions about how, AI is then audited in the future as well.

因此，确保审计不仅关注所使用的数据集，还要关注其他设计要素，以及这些要素相对于原始设计brief的持续真实性、正确性和完整性。

So to make sure that audit is not just on the data data sets that are being used, but on the other design elements and the ongoing veracity and correctness and completeness of those relative to the original design brief, so to speak.

是的，这确实非常有趣，因为我们都知道历史会随着时间推移而变化。

Yeah, this is really I mean, this is really interesting because we all know history shifts over time.

对。

Yes.

人们总说，胜利者书写历史，对吧？

They always say the conqueror writes history, right?

战争的赢家会书写历史。

The winner of a war writes the history.

但事物会随着时间推移而变化。

And but things shift over time.

我有两个女儿在大学主修历史，听她们的视角很有意思，因为她们比我都更了解双方的观点。

I have I have two daughters that studied history in college, and it's interesting listening to their perspective because they've studied both sides of it than I think.

所以，AI在政府中的作用将是一个有趣的话题，我们需要作为社会一起来厘清，因为目前情况还不明朗。

So this is this is going to be an interesting thing on how AI has a play in government and that we've got to figure out as a society, because right now.

目前还悬而未决。

It's kind of up in the air.

达伦，我完全同意你的看法。

I I completely agree with you, Darren.

对我来说，政府目前在公众关于AI的讨论中几乎缺席，这几乎是最大的风险。

And for me, that's almost the biggest risk of governments, if you like, almost being a bit absent right now from the public square discussions on AI.

如果政府不参与讨论，那么政府的价值观就不会影响到

If government's not in the discussion, then government values, aren't shaping

或者参与

Or be in the

其中。

as well.

是的

Yeah.

没错

That's right.

完全正确

That's that's exactly right.

正是如此

That's exactly right.

作为普通公民，我认为我们的政府有责任参与讨论，积极思考并比以往更快地采取行动，不仅关于本国AI提供商应达到的基本要求，以及对主权AI的期望，也关于政府自身机构对AI的应用。

So my view, as a private citizen is that our governments actually have a duty of care to be involved, you know, in the discussion, and to be thinking and acting perhaps a lot faster than they have both about, sort of minimum expectations of, you know, AI providers within their countries around what they need and expect of of sovereign AI, and also about their application of AI in their own, within their own agencies.

因为我认为，政府不能在旁观者的位置上制定法规或政策。

Because I think that they they they can't they can't regulate or create policy from the sidelines.

他们必须真正置身于这个环境和生态系统中，才能有效理解、支持并以符合社会价值观的方式监管AI。

They actually need to be in the environment and in the ecosystem to be able to, effectively understand, support and regulate it in a way that is consistent with society's values.

在未来五年，甚至更短的时间内，这将非常值得观察。

Now this this is going to this is going to be interesting to watch this from the over the next five years, maybe even less than that.

进展得太快了。

It's moving so quickly.

所以，凯瑟琳，如果人们想了解更多关于这个话题，比如你和你的工作，还有政府与人工智能的相关内容，他们该怎么做呢？

So, hey, Catherine, if people want to find out more about about this topic, about, you know, which how how do they find out more, about you and what you do and and, government and AI?

所以，他们只需要在谷歌上搜索我的名字，凯瑟琳·弗里德里，或者搜索‘政府’，就会立刻跳出大量信息。

So all I would need to do is to Google and and and either my name, Catherine Friday, or government, and there is a huge amount of information that will immediately spring up to them.

不过，达伦，对你听众来说可能最感兴趣的是今年六月发布的一份报告，也就是2025年6月的那份。

What might be of most interest to your listeners though, Darren, is, a report that released in June, in June 2025.

这份报告的主题是数据、分析和人工智能如何变革政府服务交付，并创造公共价值。

And it was on the topic of how, data and analytics and AI can transform government service delivery and add and and create public value.

这份报告是公开的，里面还包含了大量其他相关思考的链接，不仅来自我们自身，也来自像经合组织这样的机构。

And and and that report is is publicly available and then has links within it to all sorts of other related thinking, both from but then also from, entities like the OECD.

当然，我们特别强调了他们对政府在应对虚假和误导性信息中所扮演角色的看法，以及政府在建立数字民主公共治理方面的责任。

And, you know, we we we, you know, obviously highlight their thinking about the role of government, in combating mis and disinformation, and one of the obligations of governments around creating public governance for digital democracy.

这些正是经合组织所支持和倡导的理念，没错。

And these, you know, being the sorts of ideas that the OECD is, sponsoring and advocating for That's right.

对于这一点，我们同意并表示反对。

And with which, yeah, and with which we agree and say, no.

政府的角色，再次强调，是要积极参与生态系统，认识到在公民自身应对人工智能时，政府需要在何处提供支持。每位公民在与政府互动时，都会带着不同的信任态度，从非常信任政府、相信政府所说的话，到中间的不信任，再到极端的不信任。

The again, government's government's role, said, yeah, is to be active, we we within the ecosystem and and to recognize where it needs to show up to support citizens as they themselves grapple with AI, and each citizen will come to to to their government engagement with varying, you know, guess, postures, you know, on the trust spectrum between, you know, very happily trust my government and believe what it tells me to maybe a position of mistrust in the middle and then wild distrust at the end.

最终，政府的责任是与所有这些公民进行互动。

And, ultimately, the the responsibility of government is to engage with all of those citizens.

那你知道我们要做什么吗？

So you know what we'll do?

我们会把链接放在我的网站 bracingdigital.org 上。

We'll put on my website on bracingdigital.org.

我们会放上这些文件的链接。

We'll put links to, to those documents.

Catherine，这样可以吗？

Catherine, is that okay?

那再完美不过了。

That'd be perfect.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我会在通话后把它们发给你，你可以随意使用这些资料。

I'll I'll flick them through after the call so you can please please feel free to use them however you please.

好的。

Yeah.

完美。

Per perfect.

所以，对于我们的听众朋友，请前往embracingdigital.org。

So, to our listening guest, go go out onto embracingdigital.org.

那里会有大量关于本集的内容。

There'll be tons of content there on on this episode.

Catherine，再次感谢你参加我们的节目。

Catherine, again, thank you for coming on the show.

这真是一次美好的交流。

It's been wonderful.

哦，达伦，正如我所说，这真是一段无比愉快的时光。

Oh, Darren, it's been, as I said, an absolute joy.

非常感谢你给予我这个机会。

Thank you so much for for the for the chance.

能和你探讨这些想法，真的非常愉快。

It's been really lovely to talk about these ideas with you.

感谢您收听《拥抱数字转型》。

Thanks for listening to Embracing Digital Transformation.

如果你喜欢今天的对话，请在你最爱的平台或YouTube上给我们五星评价。

If you enjoyed today's conversation, give us five stars on your favorite app or on YouTube.

这能帮助更多人发现这个节目。

It really helps others discover the show.

如果你想深入了解，欢迎加入我们在Patreon上的专属社区：patreon.com/embracingdigital，在那里我们会分享独家内容，你也可以随时与其他像你一样的变革者建立联系。

If you wanna go deeper, join our exclusive community at patreon.com/embracingdigital, where we share bonus content and you can always connect with other change makers like yourself.

你随时可以在embracingdigital.org找到更多资源。

You can always find more resources at embracingdigital.org.

下次再见，继续拥抱数字化转型。

Until next time, keep embracing the digital transformation.