70：关于女子体育未被说出的真相（特邀职业运动员 Dakotah Popehn、Chelsea Sodero、Cécile Lejune）

我是亚历克斯·拉尔森，运动营养师，耐力运动员，在这里帮你更聪明地补充能量，不用限制自己，也不用想太多。

I'm Alex Larson, performance dietitian, endurance athlete, and here to help you fuel smarter without restriction or overthinking.

我们专注于真实对话和实用的补给策略，让你在忙碌的活跃生活中提升表现。

We're all about the real talk and realistic fueling strategies you can use to improve performance while juggling your busy active life.

这里是耐力青年播客。

This is the endurance youth podcast.

本期节目由我的一对一营养指导项目赞助。

This episode is brought to you by my one on one nutrition coaching program.

如果你训练很努力，但还在纠结营养问题，如果你总是饿，能量不足，或者想知道为什么训练没有带来你想要的结果，你并不孤单。

If you're training hard but still second guessing your nutrition, if you're hungry all the time, running low on energy, or wondering why your training isn't translating into the results you want, you're not alone.

这正是我创建一对一营养指导项目的原因。

And that's exactly why I created my one on one nutrition coaching program.

我们与那些寻求清晰指导的耐力运动员合作，他们厌倦了凭感觉或靠搜索来补给。

We work with endurance athletes who are looking for clarity, who are tired of winging it or googling their way through fueling.

你想变得更精瘦，但又不想牺牲能量或表现。

You want to get leaner without tanking your energy or performance.

你想要保持力量，训练得好，身体感觉舒服。

You want to keep your strength, train well, and feel good in your body.

通过我们的个性化营养计划和一对一的直接支持，我们帮你更聪明地饮食，控制好食欲，整天更有精力，让你的营养方案可持续。

Through our personalized nutrition plan with direct one on one support, we help you feel smarter, get that appetite under control, feel more energized throughout the day, and make your nutrition sustainable.

这不是要你节食。

This isn't about restrictive dieting.

而是建立一套适合你、符合你独特生活和目标的方案。

It's about building something that works for you and your unique life and goals.

我们服务各种水平的耐力运动员。

We work with all levels of endurance athletes.

这个计划是为有真实生活的真实运动员设计的。

This program is designed for real athletes with real lives.

去 alexlarsonnutrition.com 或查看节目说明里的链接获取更多信息。

Head to alexlarsonnutrition.com or grab the link in the show notes for more information.

欢迎回到 Nerd Seats 播客。

Welcome back to the Nerd Seats Podcast.

今天，我给大家带来一期非常特别的节目。

Today, I have a very special episode for you.

这期节目已经筹备了一年多。

One that has been in the works for over a year.

我终于把它整理好，呈现给大家，因为这个话题在我脑子里已经转了一年多了。

I'm finally actually putting this all together and delivering this episode to you because it's been in my mind for easily over a year.

我采访了三位非常了不起的女性职业耐力运动员，问了她们同样四个问题，关于今天作为女性在体育界的意义。

I have interviewed three incredible professional female endurance athletes and asked them all the same four questions about what it means to be a woman in sports today.

我觉得结果非常特别，也很有意义。

The result is something I think is incredibly special and meaningful.

让我来介绍一下你们将要听到的嘉宾。

Let me introduce you to who you're gonna hear from.

达科塔·波潘是奥运马拉松选手，也是我在跑步圈里最喜欢的人之一。

Dakota Popane is an Olympic marathoner and one of my favorite humans in the running world.

她也是明尼苏达老乡。

She's a fellow Minnesotan.

达科他在2024年巴黎奥运会上获得了第十二名，是女子马拉松中成绩最好的美国选手。

Dakota placed twelfth at the twenty twenty four Paris Olympics and was the top American finisher in the women's marathon.

她还是德卢斯这里奶奶马拉松的两届冠军，也是我遇到的最脚踏实地、最接地气的运动员之一。

She's also a two time champion at grandma's marathon right here in Duluth and one of the most grounded down to earth athletes I have come across.

你可以在第47集里听到更多关于达科他的内容。

You can hear more about Dakota in episode number 47.

切尔西·索达罗，你可能还记得之前关于耐力运动的那一集。

Chelsea Sodaro, you may remember from a previous episode on endurance each.

她是一名职业铁人三项运动员，也是2022年IRONMAN世界冠军，在生下女儿斯凯后仅18个月就赢得了科纳赛。

She is a professional triathlete and the twenty twenty two IRONMAN World Champion who won Kona just 18 after giving birth to her daughter Sky.

她也是职业体育中妈妈运动员最热情的倡导者之一。

She's also one of the most passionate advocates for mom athletes in professional sports.

你可以在第56集里听到更多切尔西的故事。

You can hear more from Chelsea in episode number 56.

还有塞西尔·勒琼，一位法国出生的职业砾石自行车手，现在定居在美国。

And Cecile Lejeune is a French born professional gravel cyclist now based in The United States.

她的经历非常了不起。

Her journey is remarkable.

她靠田径奖学金来到美国，后来出现贫血和应力性骨折，医生说她再也不能参加高水平比赛了。后来她通过一次俱乐部骑行接触了自行车运动，现在成了职业砾石赛中最受瞩目的新星之一。

She came to The US on a track and field scholarship, developed reds and stress fractures, was told she would never compete at an elite level again, found cycling through a club ride, and is now one of the most exciting names in professional gravel racing.

她在2025年Lifetime Grand Prix总成绩排名第五，现在为Trek Driftless车队效力。

She finished fifth overall in the twenty twenty five lifetime grand prix and is now racing for Trekt Driftless.

你可以在第33集听到更多关于塞西尔的故事。

You can hear more from Cecile in episode number 33.

所以我们有四个问题，三个视角，有很多话要说。

So we got four questions, three perspectives, a lot of things that need to be said.

我们开始吧。

Let's get into it.

我们花了很多时间讨论女性面临的挑战，这些都是真实存在的，也值得讨论。

We spend a lot of time talking about the challenges women face, and all of that is real and worth discussing.

但我想先表达一些感激之情，问一下：你热爱耐力运动的哪些方面？

But I want to begin with some gratitude by asking, what do you love about being a woman in endurance sports?

我想我们现在都知道了。

I think we all know that now.

这是个蓬勃发展的行业。

This is a booming business.

我觉得我有创业精神，而且现在对女运动员来说是个绝佳的时代。

I think I have an entrepreneurial spirit, and it's such an amazing time to be a female athlete.

我们拥有的机会比以往任何时候都多。

We have more opportunity than we've ever had.

有更多资源投入到我们的运动项目中，这意味着更多机会和更激烈的竞争。

There's more resources going into our sports, which means more opportunity and better competition.

我喜欢我经常能打败男生。

I love that I can often beat boys.

我觉得这是我一直喜欢的一点。

I think that's been something I love.

有些事情我永远不可能比男人做得更好，比如篮球，但在长跑中我能甩掉一些男队友，我喜欢这种炫耀。

There's like some things that I'll never be better, a better basketball player than a man could be, but I can drop some of my male teammates on long runs, I love that flex.

我喜欢这项运动的一点是，它就像一个姐妹会，你在赛场上认识的其他运动员，和她们建立的友谊真的很棒。

I love about it is that there is a sorority in the sport, and the friendships that you make from knowing the other athletes on the circuit, it's great.

这真的让你的比赛周末变得好多了。

It really makes your race weekend so much better.

我还喜欢的是，我现在到了这个水平，开始有了一些影响力，希望能对更年轻的女孩们产生一些影响。

What I also love about being at the level I am and starting to have a bit of outreach is being able to hopefully make an impact on younger girls.

我们知道，年轻女孩或者青少年，她们的退出率比男孩要高很多。

We know younger girls or teenagers, their dropout rate is a lot higher than for the men, for the boys.

部分原因是青春期。

Part of that is due to puberty.

希望有我这样的榜样，还有这项运动里其他一些伟大的运动员，女孩们能仰望她们喜欢的运动员，看到那是一种可能，也是我们可以走向的未来。

Hopefully by having figures like myself and some of the other great athletes in the sport, the girls will be able to look up to some athletes they like and be able to see that as a possibility and see that as a future that we could go towards.

我喜欢这三个回答的地方是，它们如此不同，却又同时都是对的。

What I love about these three answers together is how different they are and how right they are all at the same time.

我们先停一下，想想达科他刚才说的话，因为她谈到的，是我在社交媒体上看到过讨论的事情。

And we just sit with what Dakota said for a second because she is talking about something that I've seen discussed on social media.

这个说法叫“被女人超了”。

The term is getting chicked.

如果你没听过，这是指一个男人被女人超过或打败，而且这原本是用来羞辱那个男人的。

If you have not heard it before, it's a term for when a man is getting passed by or beaten by a woman and it's meant to be an insult to the man.

你细品一下。

Let that sink in.

觉得被女人跑赢或骑赢是件丢人的事，这本身就说明，在体育界，女性一直被视为低人一等、是安慰奖、是你理所当然应该赢过的对象。

The idea that being outrun or outbiked by a woman is something a man should be embarrassed about says everything about how women in sports have historically been positioned as the lesser standard, the consolation prize, the thing you are definitely supposed to beat.

在耐力运动中，男女之间的表现差距会随着距离的拉长而显著缩小。

Urine sport is an athletic domain where the performance gap between men and women narrows significantly over distance.

瑞秋·恩特根就是一个绝佳的例子，她在科科多纳250比赛中总成绩排名第一。

Rachel Entregan is a fantastic example at the Kokodona two fifty being the first overall finisher.

她简直太厉害了。

Absolutely crushed it.

DL，她说的正是我深信不疑的东西——这项运动中的姐妹情谊，以及当那么多年轻女孩正在退出体育运动时，作为她们的榜样所肩负的责任。

DL, she speaks about something I believe in deeply, the sorority of this sport, the sisterhood, and the responsibility that comes with being visible to younger girls at a time when so many of them are dropping out of athletics.

而且我很喜欢切尔西从女子体育商业的角度来看这件事，以及这一刻对我们所有人的意义。

And I love that Chelsea came in from the perspective of the business of women's sports and what this moment means for all of us.

2025年，女子环法自行车赛让人们注意到，女性运动员经常被问及体重和身材的问题。

In 2025, the Tour de France Femmes put a spotlight on how often women get asked about their weight and their bodies.

如果你能改写媒体向女性运动员提出的问题，你希望他们问些什么呢？

If you could rewrite the questions that the media ask women in sports, what would you want them to ask instead?

这期播客的灵感来自于看到2025年女子环法自行车赛的媒体报道。

The idea that this podcast episode came after seeing the media coverage from the twenty twenty five Tour de France Femmes race.

看到波琳的胜利被归因于她的体重，而完全没有讨论她为比赛所做的其他准备——其实她做了很多——我感到非常失望。

I was very disappointed to see Pauline's win being attributed to her weight and no discussion about anything else that she did to prepare for the race, which was a lot.

在那场比赛之前，她已经赢得了多个世界冠军，但她的体重却成了头条。

She has won multiple world championships before that race and yet her weight was the headline.

我觉得如果还是关于身体的问题，我想问的是，你最欣赏自己身体能做到什么，而不是关注你有多轻或多强壮。

I think if it's still like along the lines of a body, I'd want to ask like, what do you appreciate most about what your body can do versus focusing on how light you are or how strong you are that way?

我更愿意听到她们最欣赏自己身体的哪一点。

I would I'd rather hear what they appreciate most about their body.

体重这个问题，确实会影响表现。

The question of a weight, it does impact performance.

而且确实有健康减肥的方法。

And there is a way that you can lose weight healthily.

但也有很多不健康的减肥方式。

It's also a lot of ways that you can lose weight unhealthily.

所以这可以作为讨论的一部分，但不应该是唯一的话题。

So it's something that maybe can be part of a conversation, but it shouldn't be the only part of a conversation.

我更想听到的是关于运动员如何备战比赛的其他问题。

And what I'd like to hear more of is questions about the other ways that athletes got ready for the race.

比赛时她们脑子里在想什么？

What went through their minds during the race?

团队战术是怎样的？

What were some of the team tactics?

她们是如何针对每场比赛进行训练的。

How they approach training specifically for each event.

问题应该关注运动员作为表演者和竞争者的表现，而不仅仅是她们的身体。

Questions about the athletes as performers and as competitors more than just a body.

我希望被问到我的表现，我是如何在这么高的水平上取得成就的，我是怎么做到我所做的事情的。

I want to be asked about my performance, how I'm achieving at such a high level, how I'm able to do what I do.

我不希望被问到我的外表或我的身体。

I don't want to be asked about how I look or about my body.

我希望被问到我的身体能做什么。

I want to be asked about what my body can do.

这些职业女性运动员的回答让我印象深刻的是，她们并不是要求被保护，不受尖锐问题的困扰。

So what strikes me about the responses from these pro women is that they are not asking to be protected from hard questions.

她们是希望被看作表演者和竞争者，而不是根据她们的外表来评判。

They're asking to be seen as performers and competitors, not by how their body looks.

达科塔希望被问到，她欣赏自己身体的哪些能力，而切尔西则很直接。

Dakota wants to be asked what she appreciates about what her body can do and Chelsea she's direct.

问她关于她的表现，问她是怎么做到的，还有塞西尔，我很喜欢她说的，她并不是说体重不重要。

Ask her about her performance ask her how she does what she does and Cecile and I love this she's not saying that weight is irrelevant.

她想要的是参与一场更大的讨论，关于战术、准备和心态。我完全同意这一点。

What she wants is to be part of a much bigger conversation about tactics preparation and mindset And I completely agree with this.

在2025年女子环法自行车赛之后，我的一个客户问我，如果Pauline在比赛前三个月来找我，帮她减重以备战环法，我会不会和她合作？

After the twenty twenty five Tour de France Femmes, I was asked by a client of mine that if Pauline approached me three months before her race to help her get lighter for the tour, would I work with her?

我想先获取一些基础信息，评估她的健康状况，包括实验室检查、骨密度、身体成分、健康与体重史，以及当前的饮食。

I'd want to get some baseline info assessing her health status labs, bone density, body composition, or health and weight history, current diet.

考虑到她想要达到的体重是暂时的，我可能会同意和她合作。

Knowing that the weight she's looking to achieve would be temporary, I would probably agree to work with her.

而且在那段时间，她确实有专家在帮助她。

And she did have experts working with her during that time.

所以我不明白为什么媒体抓住这一点作为主要报道内容。

So I don't understand how this was the main storyline that the media grabbed onto.

作为一名运动营养师，我花了很多时间帮助运动员处理他们与身体的关系，以及他们从外界接收到的信息，这些都很重要。

As a sports dietitian, I spend a lot of time working with athletes on their relationship with their bodies and the messages that they're receiving from the outside world that matters.

本期节目由Carb Culture Shop赞助，这是一个舒适、以运动员为灵感的服装品牌，专为耐力运动员设计。

This episode is brought to you by the Carb Culture Shop, a cozy athlete inspired apparel line that was designed with the endurance athlete in mind.

柔软的圆领衫、帽子等等，既舒适又优质，还带着我们大家都懂的那种会心一笑的幽默感。

Soft crew necks, hats, and more that offer comfort, quality, and that subtle I get it sense of humor we all share.

不管你是给自己买，还是想给你生活中的运动员挑个礼物，Carb Culture Shop 都能满足你。

Whether you're shopping for yourself or looking for a gift for an athlete in your life, the Carb Culture Shop has you covered.

节目笔记里有链接，或者直接去 carbculture.store 看看。

Find a link in the show notes or head to carbculture.store to check it out.

在耐力运动领域，还有哪些话题是我们现在讨论得不够、但确实需要好好聊聊的？

What conversations do we still need to have in endurance sports that aren't happening enough right now?

我觉得我们需要更多地去谈运动员的职业生涯能持续多久。

I think we need to talk more about longevity in sport.

高水平运动的核心就是赢，看谁最快，谁能破纪录。

The whole point of high level sports is to win and to see who's gonna be the fastest, who's gonna break the records.

但有时候也有另一面，就是职业生涯结束后，身体可能留下伤病，或者某些健康问题会提前终结职业生涯。

But there is a flip side to that sometimes where after a career, bodies can be broken or some health aspects can end careers before they should.

所以除了身体方面，心理上的持久力也很重要。

So there's that physical side, there's also the mental longevity.

很多橄榄球运动员可能因为头部受伤而早逝或患上抑郁症。

A lot of football players maybe die early or get depression because of all the head injuries they've had.

其实在自行车运动里，我们也有很多脑震荡的问题。

I mean, we've also had, in cycling, also have a lot of concussion issues.

我们需要讨论如何在保持高水平表现的同时，也兼顾健康方面。

Having that conversation on how we can keep performing well, but incorporate the health side of it too.

这个话题应该被更多地讨论。

It should be spoken more of.

你知道吗，现在我最关心的是我们如何支持妈妈们。

You know, at this moment, I'm most passionate about how we're supporting our moms.

我认为我们需要更好的制度和基础设施，让女性能够在职业生涯的黄金时期选择成为母亲。

I think we need better systems and more infrastructure so that women can choose motherhood during the prime of their careers.

我们需要更好的产假政策和支持。

We need better maternity policies and support.

在耐力运动中，我们主要通过代言赚钱。

In endurance sports, we make most of our money through endorsements.

而且这些都有保密协议，所以公司不用负责。

And these are all under NDAs, so companies aren't accountable.

说到底，选择怀孕可能会让我们受到惩罚，我觉得我们有权利在职业生涯的每个阶段都得到支持。

Ultimately, we can be penalized for choosing pregnancy, and I think that we have the right to be supported through all the phases of our careers.

所以现在，我最热衷的就是想办法让这成为现实。

So at this point, I'm most passionate about finding ways that we can make that a reality.

我觉得我们需要多谈谈，不是所有研究都包含女性，要开始把女性纳入这些研究，这样我们才能看任何数据，了解它如何适用于我们。

I think we need to talk more about how not every study includes women, and start including women into those studies so that we can look at any data and understand how that applies to us.

我喜欢冰浴，也喜欢桑拿，我想知道这些对作为女性的我有什么影响，而不是对一般男性群体的影响。

I love to ice bath, I love to sauna, and I want to know how those affect me as a woman rather than how it affects the general male population.

完全同意Dakota的看法，我们需要更多针对女性的研究。

Completely agree with Dakota that we need more women specific research.

Abbie Smith-Ryan，她是播客第25和26集的嘉宾朋友，她在UNC Chapel Hill做了一些很棒的事情，研究女性在运动中的健康问题。

Abbie Smith-Ryan she's a friend of the podcast episode number twenty five and twenty She is doing fantastic things at UNC Chapel Hill to learn more about women's health in athletics.

她非常合我心意，她强调母职和那些迫使女性在事业和家庭之间做选择的结构性失败。

She is a woman after my own heart, highlighting motherhood and the structural failures that force women to choose between their careers and their families.

她说得太对了。

She hit it on the mark there.

代言合同大多签了保密协议，这意味着公司不用为她们如何对待怀孕运动员和新妈妈负责。

The fact that endorsement contracts are mostly under NDAs means companies are not being held accountable for how they treat pregnant athletes and new mothers.

我很喜欢塞西尔把话题拉远到长寿的问题上，无论是身体还是心理，这项运动在这方面谈得还不够。

And I love that Cecile is zooming out to the question of longevity, both physical and mental, which is something this sport doesn't talk about enough.

作为自行车手，我现在的首要目标是在提升体能、力量和耐力的同时，保持我的快乐。

My number one goal as a cyclist right now is to preserve my joy as I work on building my fitness, strength and stamina.

那些四五十岁、六十岁的女性在比赛中把我甩在后面，真的让我很受鼓舞。

I'm so inspired by women in their 40s, 50s and 60s who are crushing me in races.

这让我对自己的未来表现充满期待。

It makes me very excited for what's to come in my own performance.

你想让下一代女性运动员在表现和身体形象方面知道些什么？

What do you want the next generation of women athletes to know about performance and body image?

你问这个问题时，我想到了我女儿很多。

I think a lot about my daughter when you ask this question.

我是在90年代长大的，那时候你知道，流行低脂饮食，还有体重管理那套。

I grew up in the 90s, which was, you know, the low fat phase, the weight watchers.

那时候大家老聊这些，我希望我女儿能关注自己有多强壮、多厉害。

Conversation was prevalent, and I want my daughter to be focused on how strong and powerful she is.

她其实刚开始学泰拳。

She actually just started taking Muay Thai.

他们得学一个忍者信条，信条里说我会听父母的话，这点我们特别赞成。

They have to learn a ninja creed, and the ninja creed is I will listen to my parents, which we really like around here.

我会尽全力做好每件事，而且永不放弃。

I will do my best at everything I do, and I will never give up.

她在课堂上喊这个忍者信条的时候，我看着她就觉得她特别强壮、勇敢、有力量，完全就是那种自信满满、气场全开的样子。

And she yells the Ninja Creed when she says it in class, and I just look at how strong and brave and powerful she is and how she's just, like, owning her space.

这就是我希望未来一代能有的样子。

And this is what I want for future generations.

我希望我们能大胆展现自己，意识到自己有多强大、多有能力，而不是为了迎合某种期待去改变或塑造自己的身体。

I want us to take up space and realize how powerful and capable we are and that it's not about fitting or molding our bodies into a certain expectation.

关键是变得强壮，尽可能强大。

It's about being strong and being as powerful as possible.

我想让他们知道，阻碍他们达成目标的最大因素很可能是伤病，而预防伤病的最好方法，尤其是在跑步或耐力运动中，就是补充足够的能量。

I want them to know that the number one thing that's going to stand in their way of reaching their goals is most likely injury, and the best way to prevent injury, especially in running or endurance sports, is fueling enough.

你的身体就像一台发动机，一辆车，需要高辛烷值的燃料。

Your body is an engine, it's a car, and it needs high octane fuel.

要记住在运动和生活中的长久性。

Keeping in mind the longevity in the sport and in life.

你打算怎么训练，才能在六个月后表现好，同时也能在五年、十年后依然出色？

How are you going to train in the next six months to be good in seven months, but also to be good in five years, in ten years?

因为最优秀的运动员不是那些只表现一年就消失的人。

Because the best athletes aren't the ones who do well just for a year and disappear.

他们是那些能在十年里持续表现出色的人。

They're the ones who repeatedly perform well over a decade.

所以，教导年轻运动员培养这种长期发展的心态，希望这对我们的运动、运动员的心态、身体和表现都有好处。

And so teaching young athletes how to have that mindset of longevity in the sport, hopefully be good for our sports and for the athlete's mindset and for their body and for their performance too.

我经常被家长问到，怎么才能确保孩子从小对食物和身体有积极的态度。

I often get asked by parents how they can ensure that their kids grow up with positive relationships with food and their body.

我会温和地提醒他们，这要从家长自己先修复与自己的关系开始，这样才能给孩子做榜样。

And I kindly remind them that it starts with healing your own relationship with yourself as a parent so that you can model that to your kids.

我有很多不同年龄的运动员，男女都有，我给他们布置了一个任务，就是每天站在镜子前对自己说一些积极的肯定语。

I have a number of athletes of all ages, both men and women who I have assigned the task of saying positive affirmations about themselves when they step in front of the mirror every day.

不要和别人比较，告诉自己你自己的忍者信条：强壮、有力量、有能力，并且不放弃自己。

Not comparing yourself to others, telling yourself your own ninja creed of being strong, powerful, and capable, and not giving up on yourself.

我非常感谢Dakota、Chelsea和Cecile花时间准备他们的观点。

I am so grateful for Dakota, Chelsea, and Cecile for taking the time to prepare their perspectives.

如果今天这期节目让你有共鸣，请分享给你训练组里的女性朋友，分享给你生活中参与运动的年轻女孩，分享给任何需要提醒的人：我们的身体能做什么，远比它看起来什么样更有趣。

If today's episode resonated with you, share it with a woman in your training group, share it with a young girl in your life who is in sport, share it with anyone who needs to be reminded that what our bodies can do is a lot more interesting than what they look like.

所有关注这些优秀运动员的链接都在节目说明里。

All the links to follow these wonderful athletes are in the show notes.

如果你还没有订阅这个播客，点一下关注按钮，这样你就不会错过任何一期节目了。

If you are not already subscribed to this podcast, hit that follow button so you never miss an episode.

顺便说一句，快速给个评价也能帮更多运动员发现这个节目。

A quick review also goes a long way in helping more athletes find the show.

感谢收听，我们下期再见。

Thanks for listening, and I will see you in the next episode.