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如果你想学习戴夫·拉姆齐建立成功企业的系统，那你一定要来参加EntreLeadership大师系列课程。
If you wanna learn Dave Ramsey's system for building a successful business, you need to be at EntreLeadership Master Series.
在五天的时间里，我们会带你走一遍我们用来把公司从戴夫客厅里的一张牌桌发展到年收入三亿美元的那套方法。
Over five days, we'll walk you through the playbook we've used to grow our company from a card table in Dave's living room to a $300,000,000 a year company.
这是一年中我最喜欢的几周之一。
It's one of my favorite weeks of the year.
房间里的那种能量，你和其他企业主建立的联系，真的是无与伦比。
The energy in the room, the connections you make with other business owners, there's nothing like it.
点击描述里的链接就能买票了。
Get your tickets by clicking the link in the description.
嘿，各位。
Hey, folks.
我是戴夫·拉姆齐。
Dave Ramsey here.
今天在EntreLeadership播客上，我们要做点不一样的事情。
And today on the EntreLeadership Podcast, we're doing something a little bit different.
我做过很多采访，但这次很特别。
I do a lot of interviews, but this one was special.
最近我参加了朋友肯·科尔曼的节目《前排座位》。
I recently joined my friend Ken Coleman's Show, Front Row Seat.
如果你是领导者，这一期你绝对不能错过。
And if you're a leader, this is one you don't wanna miss.
这是我第一次和肯，以及领导力领域两位顶尖人物约翰·麦克斯韦尔和帕特里克·兰西奥尼坐下来聊天，这场对话你在别处听不到。
For the very first time, I sat down with Ken and two of the best minds in leadership, John Maxwell and Patrick Lencioni, for a conversation you will not hear anywhere else.
我们深入探讨了每个领导者都需要掌握的原则：如何建立信任、清晰领导，以及扩大你的影响力。
We dug into the principles that every leader needs to know, how to build trust, lead with clarity, and multiply your impact.
约翰分享了关于影响力的深刻见解，帕特剖析了组织健康的重要性，而我也谈到了几十年来领导拉姆齐解决方案公司所学到的经验。
John shared incredible wisdom on influence, Pat unpacked the importance of organizational health, and I got to talk about the lessons I've learned leading Ramsey Solutions for decades.
这里面充满了你今天就 能开始应用的洞见。
It's packed with insights that you can start applying today.
所以，如果你一直想坐在前排，聆听最值得信赖的声音讲授领导力大师课，这就是你的机会。
So if you've ever wanted a front row seat to a master class on leadership from the most trusted voices out there, this is it.
请享用。
Enjoy.
追随者会问领导者的三个问题。
Three questions that followers ask of their leaders.
第一个问题是，你喜欢我吗？
First question is, do you like me?
第二个是，你能帮我吗？
Number two, can you help me?
最后一个问题，是领导力中最深层的。
And the last one is the deepest of all leadership.
不要肯定别人做对他们不利的事情。
Don't affirm somebody in something that's not good for them.
要预判别人的反对意见，但你必须去问。
Anticipate people's objections, but you have to ask.
你不能说，我知道你在想什么，但你可以说，嘿。
You can't say, I know what you're thinking, but you can go, hey.
如果我是你，我可能会担心这个或者那个。
If I were you, I might be worried about this or this or this.
还有没有其他我遗漏的地方？
Is there anything else I'm missing?
这是一个
That's a
让人脆弱的事情。
vulnerable thing.
这太宝贵了。
That's gold.
有些人受过伤，不管发生什么，他们都不会信任别人。
There are folks that are wounded, and they're not gonna trust no matter what happens.
所以在这种情况下，最好的办法就是不要有这样的人。
So the best thing you can do there is don't have them.
戴夫·拉姆齐、约翰·麦克斯韦、帕特里克·兰西奥尼。
Dave Ramsey, John Maxwell, Patrick Lencioni.
这是第一次，三位在领导力领域最受信任的声音聚在一起，进行一场你在别处听不到的对话。
For the first time, three of the most trusted voices in leadership meet for a conversation you won't hear anywhere else.
这是一堂大师课，教你如何建立信任、清晰领导，并放大你的影响力。
It's a master class on building trust, leading with clarity, and multiplying your impact.
我从来没有听人说过，人生中最重要的教训里没有失败。
I've never had a person tell me the most important lesson I ever learned in life that didn't have failure in it.
你可以从失败走向成功，但你不能从借口走向成功。
You can go from failure to success, but you can't go from excuses to success.
你不能
You can't do
做到。
it.
一家公司的CEO在音乐会上被拍到和一个不是他妻子的女人在一起。
The CEO of a company got caught on camera at a concert with a woman that wasn't his wife.
大家都觉得这有点好笑，因为他们评论了这件事，而且这件事在网上传得沸沸扬扬。
And everybody thinks it's kinda funny because they commented on it, and it's it's all over the Internet.
我真为那个人感到难过
I feel so bad for that man
因为
because
我们最近在Ramsey Solutions做了最大规模的一项研究，关于净资产百万富翁的，超过一万人参与。
We recently did, the largest study at Ramsey Solutions of net worth millionaires, over 10,000.
其中有一个非常有趣的数据点很突出：那些自称热爱自己工作的百万富翁，他们真心喜欢自己所做的工作，报告的净资产比那些不热爱工作的人高出58%。
And one of the really interesting pieces of data that jumped out, millionaires who identified as loving their work, they genuinely love the work they did, report a 58% higher net worth than those that didn't.
我想请你们大家对此发表看法，为什么你们认为数据会呈现这样的结果。
I wanted you all to comment on that why you think that data bears out that way.
很难擅长某件事
It's hard to be good at something
如果你讨厌它的话。
that you hate.
你说得对，Dave。
You're right, Dave.
没有人会放弃自己擅长的事情。
No one ever quit doing something they're good at.
你放弃的是你不擅长的事情。
You quit what you're bad at.
就是说，那
Mean, that's
就是激情所在，
where The the passion passion is
在于热爱你的工作。
in loving your work.
而激情让工作变得出色。
And the passion is what makes the work great.
一个冷漠的人，在改变他人生活或其他方面，做不了太多事。
An indifferent person doesn't do much as far as changing people's lives or anything else.
必须是一个真正在乎的人。
It's got to be somebody that really cares.
有趣的是，我们在高中和大学里并没有专门教这个。
And what's interesting, we don't teach that specifically in high schools and colleges.
只是让你拿个学位，这样就能找到好工作。
It's just go get a degree so you can get a good job.
很多人不明白为什么自己无法突破，变得富有。
And many people wonder why they can't break through and become wealthy.
嗯，有一部分
Well, there's a part
是教出来的。
of it that's taught.
我的意思是，激情会提升你的创造力。
I mean, what happens is passion increases your creativity.
因为你投入其中，不断练习、工作，磨练你的技艺。
Because you lean in, you're practicing, you're working, you hone your craft.
就像我们所有人都在舞台上工作一样
It's like all of us do work on stage
几十年了。
for decades.
谢天谢地，我们现在比刚开始的时候好多了。
And thank God we're much better now than when we started.
这些年我们一直在打磨。
We've honed it over the years.
不可能更差了。
Couldn't be worse.
所以，是的。
And so, yeah.
所以有些早期的东西确实很糟糕。
So there's some some of it in the old days sucked bad.
但确实。
But yeah.
但是……
But the...
但我们一直在改进这一点，因为我们三个人都很享受和现场观众的互动。
But we've worked on that because we all three enjoy the interaction with the live audience.
对。
Correct.
所以那……
And so that...
热情越高，创造力就越强。
The creativity increases with the passion.
但最近几代人被灌输的理念是追随你的热情。
But what is taught loosely in the last couple of generations is follow your passion.
我们的朋友迈克·罗对此非常恼火，因为那不包括磨出老茧。
And our friend Mike Row just really gets ticked off about that because it doesn't it doesn't include calluses.
嗯，当你做你……的时候，老茧没什么大不了的。
Well, and calluses are fine when you're doing what you...
你知道，每个人都会磨出老茧。
You know, everybody gets calluses.
做自己喜欢的事，长茧子也心甘情愿。
You want to get calluses doing the thing that you like.
那感觉不像是在受罚。
It doesn't feel like a punishment.
反而像是一种勋章。
It feels like a a trophy.
你懂吧？
You know?
当然。
Sure.
你知道吗，我……
You know, I...
我小时候，我……
When I was a kid, I...
很幸运，我很小的时候就找到了一本书，叫《做你所爱，钱会跟着来》。
Really early in my life, thank God for this, I remember I found a book called Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow.
但我不是那样被养大的。
Now I wasn't raised that way.
我爸妈都没上过大学，所以他们的观念就是，你要有福利，要赚够钱买房子。
My mom and dad didn't go to college, and so it was just all about you get benefits and you make enough money to buy a house.
但我记得当我出去创办自己的公司时，我爸爸，愿他安息，说，但是，帕特，你是个高管，你有福利，别这么做。
But I remember when I went out and started my own company, my dad, God rest his soul, said, but, Pat, you're you're an executive, and you you have benefits, and don't do this.
我说，爸，我得做我爱做的事。
I was like, dad, I gotta do what I love.
后来，他说，对。
Later on, he was like, yeah.
那是正确的选择。
That was the right thing.
但我们必须教……
But we have to teach...
前几天有个大一新生来找我，说，我毕业后想全职做牧师。
I had a a kid come to me the other day who's a freshman in college, and goes, I wanna go into full time ministry when I get out of school.
但我想拿一个能帮到我的大学学位，万一我需要工作的话，因为圣保罗也得靠做帐篷来维持生计。
But I wanna get a college degree in something that'll help me in that, and maybe that if I need to work, because Saint Paul had to make tents in order to do that.
然后他……
And he...
我就问他，你在学什么？
And I said, what are you studying?
他说，金融。
He said, finance.
我看了他的迈尔斯-布里格斯性格测试和职业天赋测试之类的。
And I looked at his Myers Briggs and his working genius and everything else.
我就说，你会讨厌这个的。
I was like, you're gonna hate that.
他说，是啊，我对这个不感兴趣。
And he goes, yeah, I'm not interested in it.
我说，别这么做。
I said, don't do that.
他换了专业。
He changed his major.
不过，换个角度看，约翰刚才在谈天赋。
Well, flip side of this is John was talking about talent.
你提到天赋，就是做你擅长的事情。
You were talking about talent, doing things that you're good at.
当人们听到“追随你的热情”这句话时，很多人会误解，他们会去追求自己喜欢但完全没有天赋的事情。
When you hear that phrase, follow your passion, a lot of people miss that and they'll go for something that they love, but they have no talent in it at all.
完全正确。
100%.
让我唱个反调，因为我们都听过“做你喜欢的事，一切都会很美好”这种说法。
Let me be contrarian here because I think because we've all heard, do what you love and everything's gonna be wonderful.
我觉得这不是真的。
I don't think that's true.
我觉得这有点被高估了。
I think it's a little overrated really.
我的意思是，说到热爱，我对高尔夫很有热情，但我有个问题。
I mean, love, I'm passionate about golf, but I have a problem.
其实，这个问题前几天就暴露了，当时有个人看着我说，你的高尔夫球技只有一个问题。
In fact, the problem showed up the other day when a guy looked at me and said, you only have one problem with your golf game.
我还有点小激动。
I kinda got excited.
我想，一个嘛，谁都能搞定一个。
I thought, one, anybody can handle one.
我就说，那是什么问题？
I said, well, what is it?
他说，就是你打完球后，离球太近了。
And he said, well, you're too close to your ball after you hit it.
哎呀，我去，这对我可没什么帮助。
Well, crap, I'm not going to...
这根本帮不了我。
That's not gonna help me.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I'm saying?
你离球太近了。
You're too close.
但是，我热爱它吗？
Well, but am I passionate about it?
我爱它吗？
Do I love it?
我当然爱它。
Of course I love it.
但我就是打不好。
But I'm not any good at it.
我跟别人说，如果你热爱某件事但又不擅长，别把它当职业。
And I tell people, if you love something you're not good at, don't make it a career.
把它当爱好就好。
Make it a hobby.
事实上，如果你试图把爱好变成职业，反而可能会毁掉对它的热爱。当然。
In fact, you can destroy the love of a hobby by trying to make it a Of course.
当然。
Of course.
我不...
I don't...
当人们说做你热爱的事时，我觉得这归结为一些微小的细节。
When when people say do what you love, I think it comes down to micro thing.
比如，你当下喜欢什么样的工作？你喜欢和人交谈吗？
Like, what kind of work in the moment do you enjoy talking to people?
有一种...
There's a...
你可以把它应用到很多方面...
You could apply that in a whole...
它...
It...
这不是关于……
It's not about...
因为我跟年轻人聊过……
Because I talked to young...
跟很小的孩子聊，我问他们，你想做什么？
Really young kids, and I said, what do wanna do?
他们就说，我想做电子游戏。
And they're like, I wanna make video games.
我就说，不对。
I was like, no.
你是想玩电子游戏，然后还能赚钱。
You wanna play video games and get paid for it.
所以我完全同意。
So I totally agree.
问题不在于你喜欢什么爱好。
It's not what hobby do you love.
就是说，你喜欢做什么样的事情？
It's like, what kind of stuff do you like to do?
你的朋友威尔·古达拉喜欢做饭。
Will Gudara, your friend, loves cooking.
他确实把做饭变成了职业，但并不是每个人都适合这样。
Well, he made a career out of it, but that's not for everybody.
好，我们聊聊领导力吧。因为在职场，尤其是在美国，很自然的晋升路径是：你被提升两三次，然后他们就把你放到某个管理或领导岗位上，但你其实并不想要这个职位。
Well, let's talk about leadership for a second because the natural progression, certainly in the American workplace is you get promoted two, maybe three times, and then what happens is they promote you into some type of a management leadership role, and you don't really want it.
你并不真心想带领别人。
You're not committed to leading people.
你也不享受这个过程，但你却感到有压力，不得不接受这次晋升。
You don't enjoy it, yet you've got this pressure to say yes to the promotion.
我们来聊聊那些能对自己诚实、承认自己不喜欢当领导的人吧。
Let's talk to leaders who could be honest with themselves and go, I don't enjoy this.
你会对他们说什么？
What do you say to them?
我给你的诚实打个A。
I give an A for honesty.
我也是。
Me too.
这就像把店里最厉害的销售员提拔成销售经理。
It's like taking the best salesman on the lot and making him a manager of sales.
结果你突然发现他根本管不好人，他只会卖东西。
And all of a sudden you find out that he doesn't manage well, he just sells.
然后你还失去了最棒的销售员。
And you lost your best salesperson.
你失去了最棒的销售员，而且你还得付给他们比原来多得多的工资，就为了这个流程。
You lost your best salesperson and you're paying them a lot more than you need to be paying them for that whole process.
我一直说，让你所处领域的成长来决定你的收益和福气。
I've always said, let the growth of what you're in determine what your benefits are going to be and your blessings are going to be.
而且有时候，如果升职让你离开了自己的天赋领域，那它根本算不上真正的升职，确实如此。
And sometimes promotion's really not a promotion at all if it takes you out of your gift zone, for sure.
我们在商业上犯的错误是，我们混淆了他们在销售方面很擅长这个事实。
Well, the mistake we make in business is that we confuse the fact that they're good at sales.
对。
Yes.
然后我们以为那也意味着他们擅长领导。
And we thought that makes them good at leading.
这是两种不同的技能。
It's two different skill sets.
两种不同的。
Two different.
完全不同的
Completely different
技能。
skill sets.
所以如果你要调动那个人，他们必须有学习如何成为领导者的意愿，因为现在他们得重新装上辅助轮。
And so if you're gonna move that person, they have to have a desire to learn how to become a leader, because now they gotta put the training wheels back on.
他们根本不知道自己在干什么。
They don't know what to flip they're doing.
而且你知道，这跟我们搞混的情况一样，比如因为某个人演过电影，我们就以为……
And you know, it's the same thing we get confused like because someone is in a movie, we think that we're...
他们以为我们应该在乎他们对生活的看法。
They think we're supposed to care what they think about life.
对。
Yes.
对。
Yes.
是的。
Yes.
而且这……
And it...
你知道，这其实是一回事。
You know, it's the same thing.
这是错误的技能组合。
It's wrong skill set.
你在电影里，意味着你学会了表演。
You're in a movie, which means you learn to play
你演的是谁？
You someone act what?
你甚至不是在演自己。
You don't even play yourself.
你演的是别人。
You play someone else.
现在我却要关心你对政治的看法。
And now I'm supposed to care what you think about politics.
我无法……
I couldn't...
我们怎么知道你是为自己说话还是在为别人说话？
And how do we know whether you're speaking for you or for someone else?
所以……
So...
我觉得……
I think...
你知道的。
You know.
对，我们队里的技术人员也遇到过这种情况。
So yeah, we've done this with tech guys on our team.
技术人员想带队，因为他们写代码很厉害。
Tech guys, they wanna lead a squad because they're great at writing code.
但那是完全不同的技能。
Well, that's a whole different skill set.
所以你得去……
So you gotta go...
如果你想当领导，就得去学习新的技能。
You gotta lean into the new skill set if you're gonna do that to be a leader.
所以你可以选择，但领导力……
So you can choose, but leadership...
我是说，我们三个人都教领导力。
I mean, we all three teach leadership.
所以它是一项技能。
So it's it's a skill.
而且我听你说过这个，我很久以前就从你那里偷来了这个观点，那就是没有天生的领导者。
And and I've heard you say this, and I've stolen it from you a long time ago, that there are no born leaders.
你去医院，他们说是个小男孩或小女孩。
You go to the hospital, they say it's little boy, little girl.
他们从不说是个领导者。
They never say it's a leader.
对。
Yep.
没错。
That's right.
没有天生的领导者。
No born leaders.
从策略上讲，我觉得不让你们三位参与进来简直是疯了。
Tactically, I think it's crazy not to have the three of you weigh in.
组织和团队的领导者们都在看着、听着。
Leaders of organizations and teams are watching and listening.
他们感到压力，要提拔表现出色的员工。
And they feel that pressure to promote a high performer.
他们觉得，嘿，我以前也这么做过。
And they feel like, hey, I've done that before.
从策略上说，你们三位都教授和写过关于领导力培训的内容。
Tactically speaking, you guys have taught and written about leadership training.
在当下，他们如何实际评估这位表现出色的员工是否具备领导所需的素质，无论是从性格特质还是可培训性上？
What do they do in the moment to practically assess whether or not this high performer does have what it takes, just from a chemistry makeup and then be trained to lead?
他们怎么知道这个人有领导潜力？
How do they know that this person's got it?
嗯，我不确定你总能知道。
Well, I'm not sure you always know.
我遇到过很多次，一开始我以为自己知道，但当我把他们放到我认为合适的位置后，我才意识到我不该这么做。
I've had a lot of once I knew, and when I put them where I thought they should be, I knew that I shouldn't have done it.
所以我不确定你总能知道。
So I'm not sure you always know.
我觉得有些人天生就适合，但我会告诉你我所知道的。
I think somebody just has it pat, but I'll tell you what I do know.
在提拔人方面，我做了很多年，我从来没有提拔过一个人，除非他们已经培养好了接替他们的人。
I know in promoting people, and I've done this for many, many years, I've never promoted a person until they had trained their replacement.
因为我学到的一件事是，不要提拔一个人然后留下一个空缺，还得再去找人填补。
Because one of the things I learned to do is don't promote somebody and get a vacancy that you have to go find somebody.
所以当你提拔一个已经培养出接班人的时候，你确实知道他们有能力培养别人。
And so what happens is when you promote a person that has reproduced themselves, what you do know is that they have the ability to develop somebody.
你不知道他们是否有能力培养很多人，但我一直以来的理念就是让自己变得多余。
You don't know if they have the ability to develop a lot of people, but my whole thing has always been work yourself out of a job.
如果你能把自己从岗位上解脱出来，我会给你另一个岗位。
If you work yourself out of a job, I'll give you another one.
但如果你连现在的岗位都搞不定，那我基本上会把它从你手里拿走。
But if you can't work yourself out of the job you have, pretty much I'm gonna take it away from you.
因为培养领导者的方式，就是培养你手下的人。
Because the way to reproduce leaders is to reproduce people that are under you.
所以这就是你发现人才的方式，如果连一个都培养不出来，那我不会让他们去培养更多的人。
And that's how you kind of find, if they can't reproduce one, I wouldn't put them in position to reproduce some more.
我的意思是，先试试看，从培养一个开始，看看效果怎么样。
I mean, let's just find out, start with one and see if it's any good or not.
我坐在这儿想，天哪，我居然不知道这个问题的答案。
I'm kind of sitting here thinking, gosh, I should know the answer to this question.
不过，我首先要做的，就是去弄清楚他们想成为领导者的动机是什么。
The first thing I would do though about, I would go find out what their motive for one to be that leader is.
我是想扩大自己的影响力，还是想掌权？
Am I wanting to be enlarged and in charge?
还是我想去服务？
Or am I wanting to serve?
对。
That's right.
这就是你的新书《动机》。
And that's your latest book, Motive.
还有《为什么》。
And The why.
所以……
So...
但通常这需要……
But usually that's got to...
对我来说，那通常是一个情感上不成熟的人。
For me, that's been someone that's emotionally immature.
他们可能年轻，也可能年长，但至少情感上不成熟，因为他们想要领导职位是出于自私的原因，因为不以服务为基础的领导力，约翰·麦克斯韦尔告诉我们所有人，不是真正的领导力。
They might be young or they might be old, but they're at least emotionally immature because they're wanting it for selfish reasons because leadership that isn't service based, John Maxwell told you us all know, is not real leadership.
不过有意思的是，有时候组织会创造一种文化，实际上是在庆祝他们的领导者，这其实是颠倒的。
You know what's interesting though, sometimes an organization creates a culture where they actually celebrate their leaders, which is upside down.
就好像，那就是成功的样子。
Like, that's what success looks like.
但实际上，你应该庆祝那些贡献最大的人。
And it's like, no, you should celebrate the people that are contributing the most.
而不是……
Not...
而领导者的工作就是去做这件事。
And the leader's job is to do that.
所以，如果你创造了一种文化，认为成为领导者就是成功、更重要，那你实际上会吸引那些情感不成熟的人。
So if you've created a culture where becoming a leader is seen as successful and more important, then you're actually gonna attract those emotionally immature people.
所以我会先说，这个人会不会觉得，如果我提拔他们，我就会认为他们更重要？
So I would say first, like, does this person think I'm gonna think they're more important if I promote them?
其次，他们真的想做管理的工作吗？
Secondly, do they really wanna do the job of managing?
你愿意坐下来听别人倾诉问题吗？
Do you want to sit and listen to people's issues?
你愿意帮他们解决吗？
Do you wanna work them out?
你愿意指导别人吗？
Do you wanna coach people?
如果他们只对头衔感兴趣，而不是实际工作，那就别
And if they're interested in the title, not the actual work, do not
那样做。
do that.
我同意。
I agree.
好吧，这又回到了我们最初的话题。
Well, that's back to where we started.
哦，他们会很刻薄的。
Oh, they're gonna be mean.
真的。
Really.
跟我第一个雇的人正好相反，我觉得大家……
The opposite of that was the very first guy I ever hired, and I think all...
我想这行里每个人都认识他，他叫Russ Carroll。
I think everybody knows him in this row, was a guy named Russ Carroll.
Russ以前从事过事工，早些年还参与过《耶稣传》电影项目。
And Russ had been in ministry, he'd been on the Jesus Film Project back in the day.
我的天。
My.
《耶稣传》那部电影，他大概三十多年前就来给我干活了。
The Jesus Film And so he came to work for me probably thirty plus years ago.
他在我们这儿干了十三年左右，然后就退休了。
And he worked for us for about thirteen years and retired.
然后……
And...
但Russ刚来的时候，他的第一份工作，也是我雇的第一个人，做的就是一对一的财务辅导和咨询。
But Russ came in, his first job, very first guy I ever hired was doing financial coaching, counseling, one on one.
随着我们发展，他一直跟着我，他是第一个员工。
And so as we grew, he'd been with me, he was the first guy.
我就想，我得奖励这个人。
I'm like, I wanna reward the guy.
我想给你这个机会。
I wanna give you the opportunity.
然后我们那时候已经有其他顾问加入了。
And and so we had like other counselors now on board.
我们需要有人来领导这些顾问，而且我们成立了一个咨询部门，有独立的盈亏报表。
We had to have somebody lead the counselors, and we had a counseling department that developed with a p and l.
我跟Russ说，你应该当咨询部门的负责人。
And I said, Russ, you need to be like head of the counseling department.
他问，你的意思是我得管这些人，还得管盈亏，还得做预算？
And he goes, you mean that I have to take care of all these people and I have to do the p and l and I have to do a budget?
我说，对，就是这样，而且你会赚更多的钱，还会升职。
And I said, yeah, that's what it would be, and you'd make a lot more money and you'd be promoted.
他说，哦，那对我的精神来说就像白血病一样。
And he goes, oh, that would be leukemia to my spirit.
说得好。
That's good.
白血病。
Leukemia.
那种诚实，那种爱和谦逊。
That honesty, that love humility.
就是那样。
That.
你知道吗？
You know what?
他最后是以顾问的身份从我们这里退休的。
He retired from us as a counselor.
他从来没动过，真是太棒了。
Never moved, and it was fabulous.
但他就是不愿意，不想那样，也不想做那个。
But he's like, nope, don't want that, don't wanna do that.
我觉得太多人把升职看作是去某个地方，而不是在某个地方成长。
I think too many people look at promotions as going somewhere instead of growing somewhere.
我向你保证，如果你在某个环境中成长起来，你就能应对下一个环境。
And I promise you, if you grow into a situation, you can handle the next situation.
但如果你只是走进去，你就应付不了。
But if you go into it, you can't handle it.
谁
Who
说呢，我是说，总得有个办法证明你能胜任下一个级别。
says, I mean, there has to be a way of showing that you can take the next level.
我经常告诉别人，你能胜任下一个级别的方式，就是你在那个级别上成长起来。
I tell people all time, the way you can show, do the next level is that you grow into that.
所以我觉得很多时候我们在讨论，他们能不能跟我一起走？
And so I think too many times we talk about, can they go with me?
我经常问的一个问题是，他们能不能跟我一起成长？
A question I always have is can they grow with me?
因为很多时候我们也知道，雇一个人，然后我们成长得比他们快，超过了他们。
Because so many times we know what it's like to hire somebody also and we outgrow them.
总有一天，我是说，人们在某个层面上能帮你，但当你到了另一个层面，说实话，再好的人也帮不了你了。
And there comes a day where, I mean, people can help you at a certain level, but you get to another level, honestly, really good people can no longer help you.
不是因为他们不想帮你，而是因为他们没有那个能力。
Not because they don't desire to help you, it's because they just don't have capacity.
我突然想到
Something just occurred
根据你说的，就是我不该指手画脚，我老婆这么说，但我总是忍不住。
to me and based on what you said and you said, and that is that I'm not supposed to point, my wife says, but I always do.
请便。
Please do.
我们会知道你是谁。
We'll know who you're
她不在。
She's not here.
我们不会说的。
We won't tell.
对。
That's right.
但问题是，我们就是喜欢领导。
But the thing about it is, it's like we like leading.
我真的很喜欢领导。
I really do like leading.
我……
I...
那个那个那个……
The the the...
随着年龄增长，我意识到，这听起来有点傻，但并不是每个人都像我一样。
As as I'm getting older, I'm realizing, this sounds silly, but not everybody is like me.
所以有时候，比如，当你想到那个……
So sometimes, like, when you thought to that...
对他，你说，什么……
To him, you said, what...
你现在应该接管这个部门了。
You should now take over this department.
我有时会雇一个人，然后按照我希望被管理的方式来管理他们，但他们却说，我不想要那样。
And I sometimes will hire somebody and manage them the way that I would like to be managed, and they're like, I don't want that.
不。
No.
我就说，你想要多少自由就有多少自由。
I'm like, you have all the freedom you want.
你自己想个职位头衔，自己搞定一切。
You come up with your own job title, you figure it all out.
然后他们说，我不喜欢那样。
And they're like, I don't like that.
我说，你什么意思？
I'm like, what do mean?
那会是我最喜欢的工作。
That would be my favorite job.
然后他们说，我跟你不一样。
And they're like, I'm not like you.
所以你需要根据员工的特点来管理和提拔他们，而不是按照如果自己处在他们的位置上会怎么做来管理。
And so you need to manage people, promote people based on who they are, not who we would be if we were in their situation.
非常对。
Very true.
非常对。
Very true.
嘿，我想跟你介绍一下我的新赞助商，Delete Me。
Hey, I want to tell you about my new sponsor, Delete Me.
告诉你一个事实，挺吓人的。
Here's a fact for you, and it's scary.
你的个人信息在网上到处都是。
Your personal data is everywhere on the Internet.
我说的不只是你的名字。
And I don't just mean your name.
我说的是那些你不想公开的东西，比如你的家庭住址、电话号码、孩子的名字，还有更多。
I'm talking about things you don't want out there, like your home address, phone number, names of your kids, and so much more.
这都得感谢那些数据经纪网站。
And we can thank the data broker sites for that.
他们出售我们的数据，然后这些数据就落到了网络小偷手里，他们用这些数据搞诈骗和钓鱼攻击。
They sell our data, and then it ends up in the hands of online thieves who use it in scams and phishing attacks.
最糟糕的是，即使你以为自己已经清理了数字足迹，你的个人信息还是可能毫无预警地再次出现。
And the worst part about this is even if you think you've cleaned up your digital footprint, your personal info can pop back up without warning.
所以，我真的很自豪能推荐DeleteMe。
And that's why I'm really proud to recommend DeleteMe.
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他们是行业领先者，能把你的信息从数百个数据经纪网站上清除，而且不是一次性的，而是持续不断地清除。
They're the industry leader at scrubbing your info from hundreds of data broker sites, and not just one time, but continuously.
然后他们会给你发送详细报告，告诉你他们删除了哪些信息，从哪里删除的。
And then they send you detailed reports showing what they've removed and from where.
如果你有特殊情况，他们有专家随时准备帮助你。
Now, if you have a unique situation, they've got specialists ready to help.
这不是关于多疑。
This isn't about paranoia.
这是关于做好准备。
It's about being prepared.
所以不要等到钓鱼诈骗让你措手不及。
So don't wait for a phishing scam to catch you off guard.
今天就去 joindeleteme.com/frontrowseat，使用促销代码 frontrowseat 可以享受年度套餐八折优惠。
Go to joindeleteme.com/frontrowseat today, and then you can use the promo code frontrowseat for 20% off an annual plan.
算下来每月只需9美元。
That comes out to just $9 a month.
网址是joindeleteme.com/frontrowseat。
That's joindeleteme.com/frontrowseat.
我想在这个动机问题上再简单说两句。
I want to stay real quick on this motive.
我希望你们每个人都能分享一下，你们认为什么样的动机是必不可少的？
I'd love for each of you to share, what do you think is a mandatory motive?
我们这里说的是领导他人的热情。
We're talking about passion here for leading people.
那么，哪一个动机是必须具备的？
So what is one that's just mandatory?
如果你真的热爱领导，你就必须拥有它。
You've got to have it if you're going to truly love leading.
我有两点，不是一点。
Two things, not one.
请讲。
Go for it.
因为我们教的是，一切因领导力而起，也因领导力而落。
Because what we teach is everything rises on leadership, also falls on leadership.
换句话说，领导力要么是一群人遇到的最好的事情，要么是最糟糕的事情。
In other words, leadership is either the nicest thing that ever happens to a group of people or it's the worst thing that ever happens to a group of people.
但我觉得只有两件事。
But I think there are only two things.
一个是领导技能。
One is leadership skills.
你必须具备领导技能。
You have to have leadership skills.
你必须接受培训才能领导。
You have to be trained to lead.
但我觉得还有好的价值观。
But I think also good values.
我以前只注重领导技能。
And I used to just do leadership skills.
有一天我意识到，比如2000年安然事件发生的时候，墙上挂的和实际做的完全不是一回事。
And one day I realized, well, when Enron happened in 2000, when all of a sudden what you put on the wall and what you walk isn't the same thing.
我突然明白，这其实也是价值观的问题。
And all of a sudden I realized, no, it's a values issue too.
为什么说是价值观的问题呢？因为领导者唯一的共同点就是，他们比别人看得更远，也比别人看得更早。
And the reason it's a values issue is the only thing that leaders have in common is that they see more than others see than they see before.
他们能看到更大的图景，领导者总是这样，而且他们看得更快。
They see a bigger picture, leaders always do, but they also see it quicker.
我刚开始的时候，天哪，那是五十多年前了，那时候你不需要看得更早。
And when I started off, man, fifty plus years ago now, you didn't have to see before.
你只需要看得更多。
You just had to see more.
但今天，“更早”开始取代“更多”了。
But today before is starting to replace more.
相信我，未来十年，“更早”会比“更多”更重要。
Trust me, in the next ten years, before will be prominent over more.
因为社交媒体和现在所有那些人工智能之类的东西，我的意思是，现在这个时代，跑得最快的人不一定能赢。
Because of social media and all the things now that are AI and all, I mean, this is a day now, the fastest person doesn't win the race.
赢的是那个先起步的人。
It's the person who started first.
这一点会非常关键，因为接下来会发生这样的事。
And this is gonna be very key because here's what happens.
如果我看得比你多，而且比你先看到，这就是我所说的领导力优势。
If I see more than you and I see before you, it's what I call the leadership advantage.
我就会赢。
I'm going to win.
我不是说这话不客气。
I don't mean this unkindly.
我就是会赢。
I'm going to win.
我看得更多，也看得更早。
I saw more, saw before.
我们坐下来谈，但我还是会赢。
We come to the table, but I'm going to win.
现在问题回到你那本关于动机的书上，帕特里克，那本书写得真好。
Now the question goes back to your motive book that was so good, Patrick.
很棒的书。
Great book.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我的意思是，为什么你想领导？戴夫几个月前看到了这一点。
I mean the why, why do you want to lead Dave saw a couple of months ago.
现在看这个。
Now watch this.
如果我看得比你多，而且比你先看到，我就能赢。
If I see more than you and I see before you, I can win.
现在的问题是，当我知道我能赢的时候，我会怎么利用这一点？
Now the question is when I know I can win, what am I going to do with that?
我是决定为了你而赢，还是为了自己而赢？
Am I gonna make a decision to win for you or am I gonna make a decision to win for me?
这就是为什么动机在领导力中至关重要。
And that's why motives are essential in leadership.
因为如果我激励你——这是领导者应该做的——我们就能一起前进，实现互利共赢。
Because if I motivate you, which leaders should do, I move us together for mutual advantage.
但如果我操纵你，那就是为了我自己的利益而推动你。
But if I manipulate you, I move you for my advantage.
讽刺的是，你最好的赢法其实是让他们赢。
And the irony is that the best way for you to win is to cause them to win.
完全正确，戴夫。
Absolutely, Dave.
这就是讽刺之处。
That's the irony.
确实如此。
Totally.
而且如果你永远得不到功劳，
And if you never get the credit for
这就是倒金字塔。
it That's the inverted pyramid.
嗯，我是说，戴夫，
Well, I mean, Dave,
如果我们坐下来谈，你比我更先看到……
if we come to the table and you see more before I...
所以我来谈判，你赢了，我走了，然后你回来说，来吧，我们再谈点别的。
So I come to the table and you win and I go away and you come back and say, come on, let's do it, there's something else.
所以我再回来，你又赢了，我又输了。
So I come back to the table and you win and I lose.
大概第三次的时候，
About the third
我说，来吧，我们回去
time, said, come on, let's go back
回到谈判桌上。
to the table.
我说，我不想跟你上谈判桌。
I said, don't wanna go to the table with you.
你总是赢。
You win all the time.
就像跟你打高尔夫球一样？
And Like playing golf with you?
不不不，别这么说。
Well, no, no, Don't do that.
那个那个……
The the
你们应该多跟我打高尔夫球。
You guys should play golf
跟我一起多打几次。
with me more.
你觉得呢？
You feel like
我刚才说的是我的球技。
I just talked about my game.
我没说你的球技。
I didn't talk about your game.
我那么客气，那么大方，结果你现在倒来打击我了。
I was so kind and so charitable, and now you now you are beating me.
现在是你先提起来的。
Now you brought it up.
哦，不过既然你提起来了……
Oh, but since you brought it up...
别。
No.
我是说，我开玩笑的……
I mean, I kid...
不。
No.
我们有过很多美好的时光，我跟你说。
We've had some great times, I'll tell you.
你知道吗，我渐渐明白了一个词，这全都是关于仆人式领导，而仆人式领导源自耶稣。
You know, there's a word that I've come to realize, and and this is all about servant leadership, and servant leadership comes from Jesus.
那就是，我想说，如果你不愿意承受更多的痛苦……
And that is, I would say if you're not willing to suffer more in...
为了那些其他人的利益……
For the benefit of those other people...
我喜欢用“痛苦”这个词，因为每个领导者都会有很多时刻，你会觉得，这太糟糕了，但这是为了他们。
And I like to say suffer because there are moments in every leader, lots of them, where you're like, this stinks, but it's for them.
领导力的个人代价是很高的。
The the personal economics of leadership are bad.
如果你做这件事是因为你觉得，我会得到更多，那你真的得明白，我接受这份工作，是知道我为了保护他们会承受更多痛苦，而且我会把自己放在最后。
If you're doing it because you're like, I'm gonna get more, it's like you literally have to go, I'm gonna take this job knowing that I will hurt more in order to protect them, and that I will then take care of myself last.
我二十多岁时有个导师，他给了我一条很好的建议。
I had a mentor when I was in my twenties that gave me great advice.
他说，领导者的生活中，没有连续两天是顺心的。
He said, there are no two good consecutive days in a leader's life.
这话挺有道理的。
That's pretty good.
是不是很好？
Isn't that good?
就是，这话听起来没那么鼓舞人心。
It just, it wasn't So inspiring.
我是说，听起来挺愤世嫉俗的，但我就是很欣赏这句话。
I mean, it sounds so cynical and so, but I just, I've appreciated it.
这么说吧，五十年后，我还记得这句话。
Let's put it this way, fifty years later, I'm still remembering it.
为什么？
Why?
因为太难了。
Because it's difficult.
真的不容易。
It is not easy.
有个记者采访我，问的都是些蠢问题。
I was being interviewed by a reporter asking stupid reporter questions.
她问我，你有没有想过拉姆齐这事儿能搞这么大？
And she said, did you ever imagine that this Ramsey thing would get to be this size?
我说，当然想过啊。
I'm like, of course I did.
你想啊，一个小市场里有多少人欠债？
I mean, how many people are in debt across a small market?
我当然知道
Of course I knew
会变成这样。
it was gonna be.
我不知道的是，我得铲多少粪。
What I didn't know is how much manure I was gonna have to shovel.
我不知道的是，我得学会怎么领导，而不是光当个老板，才能走到那一步。
What I didn't know was I was gonna have to learn how to lead instead of being a boss to get there.
我不知道的是，
What I
要达到那个目标，中间会有很多痛苦和磨难。
didn't know was that there's gonna be a lot of pain and suffering in order to get the other.
所以这个故事的重点不只是我得接受那些痛苦和磨难。
So the end of that story is not just I have to embrace the suffering and the pain.
故事里好的一面是，这一切都值得，因为它能带你去你想去的地方。
The part of the story that's good is that it's worth it because it takes you where you wanna go.
那当然。
Of course.
但如果你随便挑一天或一周来看，你会觉得，哎呀，就像我妻子会告诉你的，这代价挺大的。
But if you analyze it on any given day or week, you're gonna look at it and go, oh, And like my wife will tell you, this is a lot of, this is coming at cost.
当然。
Of course.
但这是值得付出的代价。
But it's a cost worth
你总是要超越眼前。
You always have to go beyond the immediate.
如果你只活在当下，那你永远，说实话，你根本算不上领导者。
If you live for the immediate, you're never, well, you're not a leader anyway, to be honest with you.
但你得始终明白，事业必须比你个人更宏大、更重要。
But you have to always understand that the cause has to be bigger than you and more important than you.
而且必须着眼于长远。
And it has to be in the long haul.
长远来看，领导力是场持久战。
The long haul, leadership is long haul.
没有那种，我觉得这就是我们在很多领导领域，比如政府中，遇到问题的部分原因——动荡，我的意思是，你在那里只是短暂地进进出出。
There's no such thing as, and I think that's part of the problem we have in so many areas of leadership such as government where turmoil, I mean, where you're in there for just brief periods of time in and out.
你不能靠碰运气式的领导来快速解决人们的生活问题。
You can't quick fix lives by just doing hit and miss leadership.
我们从未见过美国人民对政府官员如此不信任，而且我们在今年早些时候发布的盖洛普职场状况报告中也看到了这一点，普通员工和团队成员所期望的，与领导者所说的我们正在提供的之间存在脱节。
Never before have we seen such distrust in the American people to government officials, but also we're seeing it in the Gallup State of the Workplace report that came out earlier this year, a disconnect between what the rank and file employee team member is expecting versus what leaders are saying we're delivering.
所以，信任缺失了。
And so there's a lack of trust.
那么，我想问你们三位：在这样一个充满不信任的环境中，领导者如何与团队建立信任？
So the question to you three is how does a leader establish trust with their team in such an environment of distrust?
嗯，我觉得这又回到了
Well, think it gets back to
我们一直在说的，那就是他们需要知道，我们最关心的是他们的利益。
what we've been saying, and that is they need to know that most interested in their benefit.
而且，盖洛普也说了这些，因为我们看到了这一切，但看看那些优秀的组织，它们并不完美。
And and and, Gallup says all these since we've seen all this, but go to good organizations, and they're not perfect.
最好的组织也是混乱的。
The best organizations are messy.
但如果你去拉姆齐公司，那里的员工是信任领导的。
But if you go to Ramsey, people trust leadership there.
而且，是的，可能只有15%的公司能做到这样，但正是这15%让它们脱颖而出。
And and, yeah, maybe this is only 15% of companies, but that's what makes the top 15% great.
没错。
That's right.
那里的人……
People there...
而且我很久很久以前就认识你们公司了。
And I I knew your company years and years ago.
人们信任你。
People trusted you.
所以尽管大环境显示人们不信任，但看看那些最优秀的公司，人们会说，是的，我们信任领导。
So even though the macro says people don't trust, go to the very best companies, and people go, yeah.
我们信任领导。
We trust the leaders.
去最好的教堂，去最好的学校，这就是竞争优势。
Go to the best churches, go to the best schools, and it is the competitive advantage.
但他们需要知道，你愿意为他们承担困难的事情。
But they need to know that you're willing to take on hard things for them.
嗯，事实胜于雄辩。
Well, proof has to be in the pudding.
意思是，你做决定时，会把他们的利益放在心上，不管他们当时是否理解。
Meaning That's that you're gonna put their best interest at heart when you're making a decision, whether or not they understand it at the moment.
比如，我跟我孩子说，去刷牙，这样以后牙齿还好。
I mean, my kids, go brush your teeth so you have some later.
你懂吧？
You know?
他们不去刷。
And they don't go brush your teeth.
你就得回去再让他们刷一遍。
You go back and do it again.
你的牙刷都没湿。
Your toothbrush isn't wet.
看我不收拾你。
I'm a whoop you.
赶紧上去刷牙去。
Get up there and brush your teeth.
他们当时不一定觉得我是在为他们好。
They're not real sure I'm serving them right then.
但其实我真的是为他们好，因为这事对我没什么影响，除非我得闻他们的口气。
But I am actually doing it for their best interest because it's not gonna affect me unless I had to smell their breath.
我是说，真的……
I mean, it really...
这事对我真没什么影响。
It's not gonna it's not gonna affect me.
去学习，把成绩搞上去，养成严谨治学的习惯，把这些事做好，因为这样你以后就不用住我地下室了。
Go go do your studies, get your grades so you learn the discipline of academic rigor, and do the stuff, because that's gonna carry you out to where you don't have to live in my basement later.
所以我是在教你如何过好你的人生。
So I'm trying to teach you how to live your life.
我在管教那些孩子的时候，是真心为他们的利益着想。
I'm your best interest at heart when I'm parenting those kids.
确实。
True.
对团队成员也是一样的道理。
And the same thing's true of the team member.
看着他们，我会说，如果你继续这样下去，我不能把你调到这里，或者我不能继续留你在这里，因为我是为你好。
Look at them and go, I can't move you into this, or I can't continue to keep you here if you continue in this behavior because I've got your best interest at heart.
你会被起诉，我也会跟着你一起被起诉。
You're gonna get sued and me sued with you.
你现在就得停下来。
You're stopping this now.
而且，你知道，这确实是个问题。
And, you know, and that's a problem.
你……
You...
但你必须真心为他们好，而不是只想着保护自己。
But you gotta do it with their best interest in heart, not just I'm gonna protect myself against you.
不是的。
No.
你得学会怎么处理这件事，兄弟。
You gotta learn how to do this thing, man.
而且我不会一直让你满意。
And I'm not gonna please you all the time.
没错。
Exactly.
所以我刚才跟肯说……
So I I was just telling Ken before
在我们来之前，并不总是那么顺利……
we came doesn't always feel like sweet...
你知道，这可不是什么童话世界，宝贝。
You know, it's not unicorns and Skittles, baby.
我是说，服务别人确实是真的。
Mean, serving True.
有时候是有点带刺的。
Sometimes is got a little edge to it.
这个周末我们教堂来了个新牧师，他站起来讲话。
We got a new priest, a new pastor at my church this weekend, and he stood up.
我特别喜欢。
I loved it.
其他人也都喜欢，但他自己更享受。
Everybody else did too, but he loved it.
他……
He...
我是说，他站起来就说，嘿，各位。
I mean, he stood up and he goes, hey, you guys.
我只想让你知道一件事。
I just want you to know something.
我不是来跟你称兄道弟的。
I'm not here to be your buddy.
我是来帮你上天堂的。
I'm here for you to go to heaven.
这就是我在这里的原因。
And that's why I'm here.
然后我们……
And it we...
当时感觉就是，对。
It was like, yes.
因为你知道有些人会说，我来这里是为了……
Because you know how somebody is like, well, I'm here to do...
为了让你做你想做的所有事。
To give you everything you wanna do.
他说，我们要在这里做出改变，让你上天堂。
Goes, we're gonna make changes around here to get you to heaven.
你一开始可能不喜欢他，但那是我的工作。
You might not like him at first, but that's my job.
我可能不是每个人都喜欢，但我会爱每一个人。
And I might not like everybody, I'm gonna love everybody.
但我的工作是让……
But my job is to get...
我当时就想，
And I was just like,
对。
yes.
但他是以他人为中心，不是以自我为中心。
But he's other centered, not self centered.
完全正确。
Totally.
就是那种所谓的严厉的爱。
In that in that quote tough love.
他愿意为我而死，让我能上天堂，但他不会为了让我好受就说我爱听的话。
He would die so that I could go to heaven, but he's not gonna tell me something I wanna hear just to make me feel better.
这就是……
That's...
我愿意跟随这样的人。
I'll follow that guy.
信任需要时间。
Trust takes time.
对。
Yes.
我的意思是，当有人说“相信我”时，这话听着不错，但要用行动证明。
I mean, when the person says trust me, that's a nice phrase, but prove it.
这需要时间。
It takes time.
我觉得这就是功能失调的文化中最大的缺失。
And I think this is the big miss in a dysfunctional culture.
那就是
That
一切都只为了当下。
everything is for the moment.
而信任必须，你必须去赢得那份信任。
And trust has to, you have to earn that trust.
而且我觉得，当我回顾这件事时，我记得大约十二三年前，我在联合国开幕式上发言，他们让我对所有大使讲话。
And I think that as I look at it, I mean, I remember about twelve or thirteen years ago, I spoke for the opening session at the United Nations and they asked me to speak to all the ambassadors.
哦，我也做过。
Oh, I did that too.
没有，我只是开玩笑。
No, I'm just teasing.
在开幕式上发言，那很棒。
Spoke to the opening That great.
联合国。
Nations.
那太棒了。
That's great.
为什么昨天那样？
Why did that yesterday?
你知道，
You know,
你那时候做不到，因为你在火星上。
you couldn't do that because you were on Mars at that time.
记得吗？
Remember?
你当时在火星上。
You you were on Mars.
你不可能，你不可能在。
You couldn't you couldn't be.
对。
That's right.
所以当你问自己，你怎么能跟各国的大使交谈，200个国家的大使，他们来自完全不同的领导文化？
So while you're asking yourself, how could you talk to ambassadors ambassadors of countries, 200 countries, where they come from total different leadership cultures?
他们想让我讲两个小时的领导力。
And they want me to do two hours on leadership.
所以我花了一段时间。
And so it took me a while.
我是说，我得好好准备，但我最终想出了三个问题，无论文化背景如何，下属都会问他们的领导者。
I mean, I had to work on this, but I came up with three questions that followers ask of their leaders regardless of culture.
第一个问题是，你喜欢我吗？
First question is, do you like me?
他们就是想知道你是否喜欢他们。
They just really want to know if you like them.
你难道不想跟随一个喜欢你的人，而不是一个让你问“你喜欢我吗”的人吗？
Don't you want to follow somebody that likes you versus do you like me?
是的。
Yes.
第二，你能帮我吗？
Number two, can you help me?
情况会不会变得更好？
Is it gonna get any better?
我的意思是，如果领导帮不了你，你为什么要跟随他呢？
I mean, why would you follow a leader if they can't help you?
第三，我能信任你吗？
And thirdly, can I trust you?
而最后这个问题是最后才问的。
And the last one comes last.
但它是所有领导力中最深层的。
But it's the deepest of all leadership.
而一旦这种领导力真正值得信任。
And once that leadership can truly be trusted.
而且信任是需要经过考验的。
And it has to be tested to be trusted.
但前两个，如果没有那些的话。
But the first two, without those.
哦，对，那些……
Oh yeah, I Those
是我们能控制的因素。
are variables we can control.
我再告诉你一个我吃过亏才学到的因素：有些人经历过创伤，心里有伤，不管发生什么他们都不会信任别人。
I'll tell you another variable that I learned the hard way is there are folks that are, have been through stuff that are wounded, and they're not gonna trust no matter what happens.
所以最好的办法就是别招他们。
So the best thing you can do there is don't hire them.
对，这真的很对。
Yeah, that's very true.
而且鼓励……
And encourage
它们就像我们以前从收容所领养的那只狗一样。
them It's to go get like we had a dog one time that we got from the pound.
现在他们管它们叫救助犬。
They call them rescue dogs now.
那只狗，我从来没打过它，但你一走近它，它就会缩起来。
And that dog, I never raised a hand of that dog, but you walk up to it and flex.
因为它在我之前经历过那些事。
Because of what had happened to it before me.
完全没错。
Totally.
我做什么都没法让它恢复。
There wasn't anything I could ever do to get that healed.
所以那只可怜的狗一直很忧郁。
And so the poor dog is sad.
而人的心灵有时候也是这样，他们带着创伤来到你面前，他们总是，你知道，他们永远在寻找有什么不对劲的地方。
And people's spirits sometimes, they come to you damaged, and they just, you know, they're never, they're always looking for what's wrong.
而且这也不会发生。
And it's not gonna happen.
最好
Better
别让那种东西进
off just not have that in
大楼里。
the building.
就像，你说得对，戴夫。
It's like, you're right, Dave.
就像人们问，那你如何领导所有人？
It's like people say, well, how do you lead everyone?
我说，哦，我从来没领导过所有人。
I said, oh, I've never let everyone.
不是所有人都跟随。
Everyone doesn't follow.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I'm saying?
所以领导力有它的局限性，无论你做什么都是这样。
So leadership has a, there's a limitation to anything that you do.
你说得对，不管是信任还是领导力的其他方面，总有一些人你已经得出结论，你无法领导他们。
And you're right, whether it's trust or whatever part of leadership there is, there's just some people that you've come to a conclusion that you can't lead
他们。
them.
对，他们本来就不该在我们的团队里。
Yeah, they're not supposed to be on our team.
也许他们该在别人的团队里，而不是我的团队。
Maybe somebody else's team, supposed to be on my team.
这真的很难，因为领导者会想，如果有人拒绝我而离开，或者我不得不让他们面向市场，就像我一个朋友说的。
This is so hard because people that are leaders think, well, if somebody rejects me and leaves, or I have to make them available to the market, as a friend of mine said.
我们的人力资源总监说，我们得帮助他们顺应不可避免的事情。
Our HR director says we had to help them participate with inevitable.
不可避免。
With inevitable.
那个人是
That's a guy
叫鲍比·埃雷拉。
named Bobby Herrera.
这本书真不错。
What a great book.
但重点是，我们不应该……
But but the point is we're we're not supposed to be...
不是每个人都适合待在我们的组织里。
Not everybody's meant to be in our organization.
完全正确。
Absolutely.
不是每个人都应该跟随我们。
Not everyone's supposed to follow us.
当然。
Of course.
当我们觉得自己失败了，我想说，如果从来没有人离开，那才是真正的失败。
And when we feel like we've failed, I would say this, you're failing if nobody ever leaves.
如果我需要别人，我就无法领导别人。
If I need people, I can't lead people.
因为如果我真的很需要你，戴夫，那我就没法领导你，因为我会想尽一切办法讨好你。
Because if I really need you, Dave, then I can't lead you because I'm gonna do everything I can to please you.
如果我要想尽一切办法讨好你，说实话，我从来没见过哪种领导方式能让所有人都一直开心。
If I'm gonna do everything I can to please you, I mean, I've never known leadership that made people happy all the time.
而且也不可能。
And it doesn't.
但如果我需要你，我真的没法领导，因为那样我就会对你产生依赖。
But if I need you, I really can't lead because now I'm gonna become codependent on you.
现在又回到哥们儿关系了。
Now we're going back to the buddies.
嘿，就像你的牧师朋友那样。
Hey, it's like your priest guy.
我喜欢你那样，我不是来当你哥们的。
I like how you, I didn't come to be your buddy.
我是来带你去天堂的。
I came to take you to heaven.
作为领导者，我们的责任不是成为最好的朋友，而是成为我们能做到的最好的领导者。
Well, as a leader, our responsibility isn't to be the best friend, it is to be the best leader we can for.
这有区别。
There's a difference.
我经常跟你说，要确保你把最好的状态带到工作中，但如果你因为前一晚没睡好而整天拖着疲惫的身体，就很难做到最好。
I talk to you a lot about making sure that you're bringing your best to work, but it's hard to bring your best when you're dragging through the day because you didn't sleep well the night before.
对很多人来说，问题不只是床垫本身，而是床垫里面的东西。
And for a lot of people, it's not just because of the mattress, it's what's in the mattress.
大多数床垫里塞满了垃圾，比如聚氨酯泡沫、合成纤维、化学阻燃剂，这些东西可能帮你省点钱，但它们也会锁住热量，然后释放毒素到你家空气中。
Most beds are full of junk like polyurethane foam, synthetic fibers, chemical flame retardants, and that stuff might save you a few bucks, but it's also trapping heat, and then it releases toxins into the air in your home.
这可不好，所以我特别喜欢我的牛油果绿色床垫。
That's not good, and that's why I love my Avocado Green mattress.
这款床垫用的是经过认证的有机材料。
These are made with certified organic materials.
没有化学垃圾，没有石油基泡沫，只有天然乳胶、羊毛和棉花，能让你睡得更凉爽、更深沉、更健康。
No chemical junk, no petroleum based foam, just natural latex, wool, cotton that help you sleep cooler, deeper, and healthier.
而且你
And you're
也不用牺牲舒适度，因为牛油果床垫既支撑又舒适。
not sacrificing comfort either because Avocado's mattresses are supportive and comfortable.
你甚至可以在他们网站上做个快速测试，找到适合你睡眠风格的床垫：硬、中、软。
You can even take a quick quiz on their site to find the right fit for your sleep style: firm, medium, or plush.
所以别将就。
So don't settle.
升级你的睡眠和健康吧。
Upgrade your sleep and your health.
今天就去 avocatogreenmattress.com/ken，使用优惠码 KEN50 立减 50 美元。
Head to avocatogreenmattress.com/ken today and get $50 off with the code KEN50.
网址是 avocatogreenmattress.com/ken，记得用优惠码 KEN50。
That's avocatogreenmattress.com/ken, and use the code KEN50.
Avocado。
Avocado.
梦想更美好。
Dream of better.
顺便说一句，约翰，我很喜欢那三个问题。
And by the way, I love those three questions, John.
太棒了。
That's fantastic.
我觉得没有前两个问题，你根本答不上第三个。
I don't think you can get the third one without the first two.
这么说对吧？
Is that fair?
我在学习。
I'm learning
没有。
with no.
如果他们了解你，第三点最后才会出现。
If they know you like The them third comes last.
信任是领导者与下属之间最宝贵的关系，但也是最难建立的关系。
Trust is the greatest relationship that a leader can have with his people, but it's the last relationship you get.
它不是最先建立的。
It's not the first.
所以关于信任，其实，让我再说一点。
So the trust, in fact, let me just say one more
这确实需要时间。
thing It does take time.
你说过这一点。
You said that.
完全正确。
That's exactly right.
所以，当我是一个新领导的时候，我说的话分量很重，因为大家还不了解我。
So what happens is when I'm a new leader, the words I say carry a lot of weight because you don't know me.
我一来就说，我们要往这个方向走。
So I'm coming in and saying, here's where we're going.
天哪，我们要去这里。
Oh my gosh, this is where we're going.
好的。
Okay.
大约六个月后，如果我的行动跟不上我说的话，我的话就失去可信度了。
About six months later, my words lose credibility if my actions don't back them up.
所以，话只能管用六个月。
So what happens is words work for six months.
所以当领导说，我说过这个，我说过那个。
So when the leader said, well, I said this, I said this.
我问，你跟他们在一起多久了？
I said, how long have you been with them?
嗯，两个月了。
Well, for two months.
那还行。
Well, that works.
你继续说。
You keep talking.
但大约六个月后，就不管用了。
But after about six months, it doesn't work.
现在，你说的每句话都会用你的行动来衡量，因为人们不会按听到的去做，而是按看到的去做。
Now, everything that you say is gauged by what you do because people don't do what they hear, people do what they see.
所以如果他们按看到的去做，那如果你用行动来支持你的话，戴夫，你知道的，那你的话就更有分量了。
So if they do what they see, now what happens if you back it up with your actions, Dave, you know this, then your words have even more weight.
现在我一说话，就有分量了。
Now when I talk, they have gravitas.
但如果我没有用行动来兑现，那我的话就一点分量都没有。
But if I don't back it up with my actions, they don't even carry a grain of salt.
对，我们教区新来的那个神父。
Yeah, this priest that's taken over our parish.
六个月的时候，我们就……
Six months is when we...
就是说，他讲得挺好的。
Mean, like he's saying good stuff.
哦，他讲得确实很好。
Oh, he's saying real good.
我们可要看着呢。
We're gonna be watching.
没错。
That's right.
大概六个月后，要么他说的话会很有影响力，因为你会觉得，对，他言行一致；要么你就会觉得，他只是在说教。
In about six months, he's either what he says is gonna have great impact because you say, yeah, he backs that up, or else what he says you're gonna say, he's preaching.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I'm saying?
这种事经常发生。
It happens all the time.
大家就会说，哦，他们只是在说教。
Click up say, oh, they're preaching.
你懂我的意思吧？
You know what I'm saying?
不会发生的。
Ain't gonna happen.
就听个三十分钟，然后去吃午饭。
Just good for thirty minutes, listen to it, and go have lunch.
你明白我的意思吗？
You know what I'm saying?
我希望你们能给我一些沟通上的建议，什么该做，什么不该做。
I'd love to get from you guys communication, a do and a don't.
你们观察到的、讲过的、领导过的那些事情。
Something that you guys have observed, you've spoken, you've led.
领导者沟通中该做的和不该做的。
A communication do for leaders and a communication don't.
你想到什么？
What comes to mind?
我不会去传达那些我觉得别人做不到的事情。
I don't communicate things that I feel people are incapable of achieving.
我很小心，举个例子吧。
I'm very careful on What's an example of I'll give you an example.
你几乎没听我提过“天赋”这个词。
You hardly ever hear me talk about talent.
我的意思是，如果需要一个七英尺高的跳高运动员，找七个只能跳一英尺的人也没用。
I mean, it's like if I need a seven foot high jumper, it isn't gonna do me any good to get seven people who can jump one foot.
我得找一个七英尺高的跳高运动员。
I gotta get a seven foot high jumper.
如果人们做不到跳高，我就不会教跳高。
I'm not gonna teach high jumping if people can't do high jumping.
很久以前，我很喜欢挑战人们，但在他们的天赋范围内挑战他们，让他们成长并继续前进，这是有区别的。
And a long time ago, I love stretching people, but there's a difference between stretching people in their giftedness so that they can grow into it and go with...
所以，我非常小心。
And so therefore, I'm very careful.
只有几件事我很少教。
There are just a few things I seldom teach.
我很想教。
I would like to.
现在正在写一本叫《1%因素》的书，因为我知道一个事实，你成长的前90%给你带来……
Right now working on a book called The 1% Factor because I know this for a fact that the first 90% of your growth gives you...
如果你处于前10%，你在生活中会得到高回报。
If you're in the top 10%, you get a high return in life.
但人们完全不知道。
But people have no clue.
如果你能从90%提升到99%，再多提升9%，他们根本不知道。
If you can go from the 90% up to the 99, if you can go 9% more, they have no clue.
最后9%的复利效应。
The compounding effect of the last 9%.
实际上，最后9%的回报是前90%的8到10倍。
In fact, eight to 10 times more return on the last 9% than on the first 90%.
现在我的困扰是，因为我正在写这本书，我对此有一个烦恼。
Now my frustration in, because I'm working on the book right now and I have one frustration about it.
我必须对读者坦诚。
I've just gotta be honest with the reader.
如果你没有天赋，你进不了那1%。
You can't get in that 1% if you're not talented.
你就是到不了那里。
You just can't get there.
我的意思是，我为什么要写一个要么你有、要么你没有的东西呢？
Mean, and why would I write about something that you either have it or you don't?
为什么要让人沮丧呢？
Why frustrate people?
为什么要谈跳高呢？嘿，我为什么不教像我这样的人跳芭蕾呢？
Why talk about high jumping to, hey, why don't I teach people that look like me to ballet dance?
因为我们跳不了芭蕾。
Because we can't ballet.
我是说，我不会鼓励自己去唱歌，我唱不了。
I mean, I'm not gonna encourage me to sing, I can't sing.
我是说，有些事情你就是做不到……
I mean, are certain things that you just don't...
领导者明白的一件事就是，他们了解自己的极限和别人的极限，知道什么能处理，什么不能处理。
One of the things leaders understand is they understand their limits and the people's limits and what they can handle and what they can't handle.
我还记得我有一个非常出色的团队成员，一个很棒的团队伙伴，他表现超好，他想当总裁。
I still remember I had a really terrific team player, a great team player who did super and he wanted to be the president.
我已经坐下来谈过好几次了。
And I'd sat down a half a dozen times.
我跟他说，说实话，这个我帮不了你。
I said, honestly, I can't do that for you.
但是你知道吗，他哭了。
But I mean, he cried.
他说，我真的很爱你，也爱这个组织。
I I love you and I love this organization.
我想当总裁。
I wanna be president.
然后我说，问题是，如果我让你当总裁，我就得开除你。
And I said, the problem is if I make you president, I'm gonna have to fire you.
而我不想开除你。
And I don't wanna fire you.
但我确实会开除你，只是我不想这么做。
But I will fire you, but I don't wanna fire you.
别逼我开除你。
Don't don't make me fire you.
我刚才说到哪儿了？
And what was I talking about?
他没有那个能力。
He doesn't have that kind of capacity.
而且我觉得……
And I think that...
所以在沟通的时候，问题是你不会沟通什么？
So when communicating, the question is, what don't you communicate?
对于那些我觉得别人做不到的事情，我没什么兴趣去沟通。
I have very little desire to communicate things that I think people have no capacity to do.
尤其是在天赋、呼召、才能这些方面。
And especially goes in the area of giftedness, calling, talents.
这些方面我很少碰，因为我觉得基本上要么你有，要么你没有。
Those things, I don't touch them very much because I think pretty much you either got it or you don't got it.
如果你有，你就会明白。
And if you got it, you get it.
如果你没有那个能力，你就不会明白。
If you don't got it, you won't get it.
所以如果你没有那个能力，我为什么要费劲让你明白，结果只会让你沮丧，也让我沮丧呢？
So if you don't got it, why should I try to get you to get it and just frustrate you and frustrate me?
在别人不适合的事情上肯定他们。
Affirm somebody in something that's not good for them.
当然。
Sure.
这样做太有诱惑力了。
And it's so tempting to do that.
我的一个朋友说过……
A friend of mine said...
他谈到爱就是真理和恩典。
Talked about how love is truth and grace.
你……
You...
如果你不给他们真相和恩典，你就不是真的爱他们，而真相就是你为那个人所做的。
You're not loving somebody if you don't give them truth and grace, and the truth is what you did for that person.
没错。
That's right.
如果你去掉其中任何一个，那都是残忍的。
It's cruel if you take out either one.
而且作为管理者，很多时候……
And so often as managers...
因为如果你想要短期的好处，你会告诉别人他们想听的话，只是为了应付会议，让他们感觉好一点。
Because if you want that short term benefit, you'll tell somebody something they wanna hear just to get through the meeting and to make them feel good.
当然。
Sure.
那其实是残忍的。
And it's cruelty.
而一个优秀的领导者会说，你刚才做的那个，太棒了。
And a great leader is gonna be like, what you did there, that was amazing.
那确实让人不舒服。
That was uncomfortable.
那个家伙哭了，你告诉他你也要哭了。
That guy cried, and you told him you were I gonna cried.
他是个好朋友。
He's a good friend.
他非常
He's a very
好的朋友。
good friend.
所以不要一味地肯定。
So don't affirm.
在那种时刻，很容易想告诉别人他们想听的话，然后他们离开时会想，好吧，这让我应付过了那次会议，但现在这个人要受苦了。
It's so tempting in that moment to tell somebody something they wanna hear, and then they'll walk away and go, well, that got me through that meeting, but now this person's gonna suffer.
我跟你说，如果你想当专家，就告诉他们想听的话，因为你可以坐上飞机离开。
I tell you, if you wanna be an expert, tell them what they want to hear because you can get on a plane and you leave.
没错。
Exactly.
如果你想当领导，就说
If you wanna be a leader, tell
真话。
them truth.
大多数领导，奇怪的是，并不缺真话。
Most leaders, oddly enough, don't suffer from too much truth.
不是。
No.
大多数领导的问题是，我面对一个人，我在乎这个人，如果我要在两端选一边，我会选宽容那一边。
Most of them suffer from, I'm in front of someone, I care about the person, and if I'm gonna go on one side of that spectrum or the other, you go to the grace side.
而你
And you
会选……
go to the...
没有真相的宽容就是纵容。
Grace without truth is enabling.
所以你在忍受一些事情。
And so you're putting up with stuff.
刚开始的时候，我听那些约翰·麦克斯韦尔的磁带。
And when I first started, I'm listening to those John Maxwell cassette tapes.
我在里面，努力表现得友善。
And I'm in there, and I'm trying be nice.
我来自南方，所以你必须友善。
And I'm from the South, and so you have to be nice.
所以，愿上帝保佑你。
So bless your heart.
这可以意味着我要割断你的喉咙，但愿你上帝保佑你。
Which can mean I'm gonna slit your throat, but bless your heart.
愿上帝保佑你。
Bless your heart.
祝福你的心。
Bless your heart.
甜甜的茶，甜茶。
Sweet, sweet tea, sweet tea.
在这个文化里，被动攻击是一门科学。
Passive aggressive is a science in this culture.
所以我一直在试着表现得友善。
And so I'm trying to be nice.
我一直在试着表现得友善。
I'm trying to be nice.
最后我意识到，我对他们表现不佳、缺乏才能、不合适或者不管什么问题感到非常沮丧，而我不说出真相，其实并不是在善待他们。
And I finally figured out I was so frustrated with their lack of performance or lack of talent, the lack of fit, whatever was going on, that I was not being kind by not telling the truth.
说得很好。
That's very good.
所以，为了我自己，我们想出了一句话，这句话我们在拉姆齐公司一直用到现在：不把话说清楚，就是不友善。
And so we, for my sake, we developed a saying that we still use at Ramsey, to be unclear is to be unkind.
说得真好。
That's very good.
所以我必须把话说清楚。
So I've gotta be clear
非常好。
Very good.
在
In the
善意的这个层面上。
context of being kind.
这样我才能做到真正的善意。
So that I can be kind.
因为那种甜茶式的客气、那种拐弯抹角的攻击，并不是真正的善意。
Because this sweet tea kindness, this passive aggression, that's not real kindness.
对，那样根本帮不了他们。
No, you're not helping them.
那只是……
That's just...
那是懦弱。
That's cowardice.
所以我必须站出来，对自己说，好吧，我得有足够的勇气看着对方，把真实情况说出来。
And so I had to stand up and go, okay, I gotta be strong enough to look at the person and say, here's what's really going on.
我们要进行一次艰难的对话。
We're gonna have a difficult conversation.
接下来的三十五秒会非常不愉快。
It's gonna be very unpleasant for the next thirty five seconds.
做好准备。
Get ready.
开始了。
Here we go.
打起精神，伙计。
Saddle up, baby.
准备好了，亲爱的。
Buckle up, buttercup.
我们开始吧。
Here we go.
然后把那件事搞定。
And and get that done.
所以我的，我的问题是……
So mine mine is the thing...
这是我学到的一个，而且是个人的体会。
The the one I've had learned, and it's personal.
可能对其他人不适用。
It may not apply to everybody else.
但不要在我情绪激动的时候沟通。
But the don't communicate is when I'm emotional.
当我感到沮丧的时候，等等。
When I'm frustrated Wait.
或者害怕，或者措手不及。对。
Or scared or caught off guard Yeah.
被吓到了，不管是什么情绪……
Spooked, whatever whatever emotion...
当我能感觉到我的那股土劲儿要上来的时候，你知道的，不管什么原因，我必须停下来，然后说，砰。
When when I can feel my my hillbilly coming up, you know, for whatever reason, I gotta stop and go, boom.
我要花二十四小时。
I'm gonna take twenty four hours.
你就坐在这儿。
You sit right there.
我一个小时后回来。
I'll be back in an hour.
我一天后回来。
I'll be back in a day.
而且，很多年前我们刚开始的时候，我给自己许下了一个承诺。
And I I made myself a promise when we started all these years ago.
我们现在大约有2000人，以前在Ramsey工作过。
We've got about 2,000 people now that used to work at Ramsey.
现在那里大约有1100人。
There's about 1,100 there now.
其中，有一部分人，我们帮他们找到了新的热情所在，还有一部分人辞职是因为不想为我们工作。
And of those, a certain number we helped, discover their new passion A somewhere certain number quit because they didn't wanna work for us.
或者有些人结婚搬去俄克拉荷马了，什么的。
Or a certain number got married and moved to Oklahoma, whatever.
但在这2000人里，100%的人从来没有被Ramsey内部的任何领导，包括我，在生气的时候解雇过。
But of those 2,000, 100% of them were never fired by any leader inside of Ramsey, including me, while the leader was angry.
不在生气时解雇任何人。
Not firing anybody in anger.
甚至不在生气时处分任何人。
Not even gonna discipline someone in anger.
那很好。
That's good.
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