成功面试的3个步骤——与Ken Coleman的对谈

这可是个大...

That's a big...

要做出这个决定，跨度挺大的。

It's a big jump to get to that decision.

嗯，我特别喜欢这个问题。

Well, so here's what I love about that question.

它能让我们回到准备阶段。

It allows us to go back to the preparation.

如果我提前准备问题，我需要知道什么，我真的需要有个了结。

So if I'm preparing the questions ahead of time, what I need to know, I really need closure.

我需要在这些方面得到一些答案。

I need some answers on these things.

我想大概了解一下他们。

I'd like to kinda get a feel for them.

我想知道他们是谁，他们是做什么的，他们来自哪里。

I wanna know, you know, who they are, what they're about, where they're from.

这才是关键。

That's the one to know.

提前把这些问题准备好，我也在思考我想听到什么样的答案。

By getting those questions in ahead of time, I'm also looking at what are the answers that I wanna hear.

所以在面试过程中，如果他们回答问题，我会回顾这些。

And so while I'm in the interview, if they're answering questions, and I'm gonna review this.

我会坐下来……

I'm gonna sit...

顺便说一句，我觉得领导者不要急着赶下一件事，这一点非常重要。

I think it's really important, by the way, that leaders don't just run to the next thing.

你知道，我觉得这可能是个好主意，我以前从来没推荐过这个。

You know, I think it's probably a good idea, And I've never recommended this before.

这不是必须的，但我认为让其他几位领导者一起复盘面试过程是个好主意。

It's not mandatory, but I think it's a good idea to have a couple other leaders and debrief those who've been in the interview process.

不一定非得面试结束后马上进行，但你至少应该花五分钟，至少，当场记一些笔记。

Doesn't have to be right after the interview, but you should take at least five minutes, at least, and take some notes right in the moment.

他们走出去。

They walk out.

你的助理把他们送到大厅或者别的地方。

Your assistant takes them to the lobby or whatever.

我觉得你需要花大概五分钟，在脑子里过一遍面试过程。

And I think you need to spend about five minutes just kinda going through, rerun the interview in your head.

你看了那些问题。

You looked at the questions.

他们的回答符合你的期望吗？

Did the answers match up to what you desired?

这就是关键所在。

That's what this is about.

给他们打分。

Grade them.

我的意思是，用A、B、C、D或者任何你想用的方式。

I mean, if it's an a, b, c, d, whatever you wanna do.

如果你想用一到十的评分标准。

If you wanna do a scale of one to 10.

我觉得在那个时刻做这件事非常重要，然后在二十四小时内，趁记忆还新鲜，和其他面试过这个候选人的领导一起复盘。

I think it's really important in that moment to do that, and then debrief within twenty four hours, while it's fresh with the other leaders who have interviewed this candidate.

我觉得这很重要，因为你到了那里，你会想，好吧。

I think that's important because you get there and you go, okay.

我对这个人的感觉如何？

What do I feel about this?

我觉得这个人合适吗？

Do I feel like this is a good fit?

如果你觉得需要再回去，我会让他们回来。

And if you feel like you gotta go back, I'd get them back.

你知道吗？

You know?

我不知道我们为什么不这样做。

I don't know why we don't do this.

对我来说，这就像选择伴侣一样严肃，我是认真的。

Like, this to me is the same seriousness by which you choose a mate, and I really mean that.

现在我们并不指望员工永远留在我们身边。

Now we we don't expect employees to stay with us forever.

我觉得那是不切实际的。

I think that's delusional.

但我确实认为你应该带着那种认真劲儿去问自己，这感觉对吗？

But I do think you put that kind of intentionality on it to go, does this feel right?

你明白吗？

You know?

我觉得我们在这方面做得不够，因为我们总是很匆忙，然后就想，嗯，我感觉挺好的。

And I and I think we just don't do that enough because I think we get in a hurry, and I think we just kinda go, well, I feel pretty good about it.

如果不行，到时候再说吧。

If it doesn't work out, we'll just deal with it.

看看这样做的结果吧。

Well, look where that's getting you.

浪费了多少时间和金钱。

The amount of time and money lost.

去做研究吧。

Go do the research.

蒂姆，制作人是个天才。

Tim, the producer is a genius.

他能弄到一些这样的东西，但是……

He could pull some of this stuff, but it's...

在美国企业界和小企业界，每年因为错误招聘而损失的钱财，真是多得惊人。

It is extraordinary how much money is lost in corporate America, small business America every year due to bad hires.

这确实是个难题，因为有些人在面试时表现很好，通过了面试，你觉得他们很合适，等他们加入团队后，你才发现，天哪，这真是个错误。

And that's a tough thing because some people are a great interview and they get through it and you go, like, they're a great fit and they get on the team and you go, oh my gosh, this was a mistake.

他们去演《我们的日子》也会很出色。

They'd also be great on days of our lives.

太好了。

Great.

因为他们直接就把这当成一份工作。

Because they just straight up to them, it was a job.

你懂吧？

You know?

顺便说一句，这也不是什么万无一失的完美流程，但我告诉你，如果你在面试环节上多下功夫……

And by the way, this isn't like a fail safe perfect process, but I'm telling if you lean in on the interview process...

而且，这不只是针对你，领导。

And by the way, this isn't just for you, leader.

我们做的这个《有意图的面试》节目。

This Intentional Interview Talk that we've done.

去听听。

Get it.

把笔记拿过来。

Get the notes on it.

深入研究一下。

Dive in.

把这件事制度化。

Institutionalize this.

每次面试都要这样做。

This needs to be through every interview.

不管是谁负责面试，在见到你之前，他们就得先走这套流程。

Whoever's doing interviews, before they even get to you, they need to be doing this process.

这对你有好处。

It's going to help you.

那如果是一家很小的公司，团队也很小，领导自己，比如CEO或者老板，亲自来面试呢？

Now let's say it's a real small business, small team, and the leader themselves, maybe the CEO, the owner is doing this interview.

他们负责整个流程。

They're in charge of the process.

在见到那个领导之前，还有三层领导要过。

There's three leaders to get through before you get to that leader.

对于这么小的公司，流程是什么样的？

What does the process look like for a business that small?

嗯，我的意思是，我还是会找别人参与进来。

Well, I mean, I still would get somebody else in there.

如果公司很小，而且你是唯一的领导，那我们就找配偶来帮忙。

If it's so small and you're the only leader per se, that's why we do a spousal.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

所以如果你真的很信任你妻子的直觉，或者你丈夫的直觉，如果你是经营公司的女性，你知道，我当然会把这个考虑进去。

So if you really trust your wife's gut or your husband's gut, if you're a lady running the business, you know, I certainly would bring that into it.

但即使你是唯一的领导，我仍然……

But even if you're the only leader, I still...

如果必须的话，而且如果我是少数几个领导之一，我会找一些将来要跟这个人一起工作的人。

If I had to, and if it was just me as kind of the one of the few leaders, I'd get some of the people that are gonna work day to day with the person.

所以就是……

So just...

我会很快快进一下，然后说，好吧。

I'd quickly fast forward and go, alright.

如果我们雇了他们，他们大部分时间都会和这边的拉里一起工作。

If we hire them, they're gonna be working most of the day with Larry over here.

所以我会给拉里一些面试问题，然后让拉里去面试这个人。

So I'm gonna give some interview questions to Larry, and I'm a have Larry interview this person.

然后拉里会说，我不想做这个。

And Larry's like, I don't wanna do it.

我就会说，拉里，你就照这些问题问，而且我希望你深入追问一下。

Like, Larry, just literally ask these questions, and I want you to poke.

然后告诉我，你对这个人有没有好的直觉，觉得他不仅能胜任这个职位，还能和你一起好好工作。

And I want you to tell me if you have a good gut about this person being somebody who would work well, not just in the position, but alongside of you.

我会让团队参与进来。

I would empower the team.

这个提法很好，因为很多时候，这个人可能很适合公司本身，但和你共事的人性格完全不同，那些可能会……

That's a great callout because a lot of times, it could be a good fit for the company itself, but you're working with a real different personality and those can...

可能就没有那种默契。

There may not be chemistry there.

可能会有摩擦，尤其是新人来了，跟一个干了十年的老员工一起工作。

There may be frustrations, especially new guy coming on with a guy who's been there for ten years.

所以面试过程中可能会有些尴尬的紧张气氛，但可以通过面试来化解或搞清楚。

So there can be some awkward tension there that can be diffused or figured out in that interview process.

你知道，别忘了这一点。

You know, let's not forget this.

人其实很有意思。

People are really interesting.

你可能会问所有正确的问题，你问一个可能在这个层面上的问题，他们回答得很好。

And you may ask all the right questions, and you ask a question that may be at this level, and they give a really good answer.

对吧？

Okay?

你觉得，好吧。

And you feel like, okay.

然后你让Larry去面试他们，他们就会稍微放下伪装。

And then you have Larry interview them, and they drop their act a little bit.

因为那是拉里。

Because it's Larry.

我也不知道为什么老拿可怜的拉里说事。

I don't know why we're picking up poor Larry.

我觉得拉里特别有价值。

I think Larry's super valuable.

但拉里坐在那儿，他们知道不是在跟老板谈。

But Larry's sitting there, and they know they're not with the boss.

他们会不会稍微放下那副架子？

Do they drop that act a little bit?

再加上拉里可能会……

And the combination of that plus Larry probably going...

你问的是这个层面的问题，拉里可能会问得更深，对方回答了，拉里就说，这不行。

You asked it at this level, and Larry might ask it at this level, and the guy gives an answer, and Larry goes, that ain't gonna work.

拉里帮你省了一大堆时间和钱。

Larry just saved you a ton of time and money.

所以我觉得那会是……

So I think that would be...

你知道，还是同样的流程。

You know, again, it's the same process.

如果你没有很多领导，就让你的员工参与进来。

If you just don't have a bunch of leaders, get your workers involved.

如果他们觉得，我不想做这个面试，那……

And if they're like, I don't wanna do the interview, that's...

对我来说，关键就是拉里听起来怎么样。

To me, it's how Larry sounds.

就说，拉里，你看。

Say, Larry, look.

这是我为你写的。

I wrote it for you.

你只需要问这些问题，然后深挖下去，兄弟。

All I need you do is just ask these questions and dig, man.

跟我说说你的直觉感受。

Give me your gut feel.

好吧，拉里可能不喜欢做这件事，但拉里可以说，行，我给你我的直觉感受。

Well, Larry may not like doing it, but Larry can go, well, I'll I'll give you gut feel.

我就是喜欢拉里说话的方式，

I just love how Larry talks, by

拉里。

Larry.

蒂姆，给我那个引用，

Tim, give me that quote,

那个数据。

that stat.

人力资源管理协会说，六到九个月。哦，你看那个。

The Society for Human Resource Management says six to nine months Oh, look at that.

他真去做了。

He went and did it.

员工工资的六到九个月。

Of an employee salary.

员工工资的六到九个月。

Six to nine months of an employee salary.

这就是那个数据。

That's the stat.

所以当你招错人，他们离开你的时候，替换成本等等，就是六到九个月的工资。

So when you make a bad hire and they leave you, the cost of replacement and all that, six to nine months.

太不可思议了，Tim。

That's incredible, Tim.

找得好。

Great pull.

现在让我告诉你一些事情。

Now let me just tell you something.

如果你们以为这只是我和George在聊一个有趣的话题，朋友们，我们讨论这个是因为我们认为这有点价值，你们就自己算算这笔账吧。

If you just thought this was you and I having a cute conversation, folks, like George and I just talking about this because we think this is somewhat valuable, just run those numbers.

你算算这些数字。

Run those numbers.

对吧？

Okay?

这肯定会引起你的注意。

That'll get your attention.

有钱能使鬼推磨。

Money talks.

嗯，我是说，你看，老兄。

Well, I mean, look, man.

我是说，小企业主们已经在苦苦挣扎了。

I mean, small business owners are already scrapping.

而且你没有时间和金钱去折腾这些。

And you don't have time or money to mess with this.

那你怎样才能有信心地招聘呢？

So how do you then hire with confidence?

你知道，不是说，好吧，我们有80%的把握。

There's not a, you know, okay, we have an 80% confidence score.

我们就打算去录用他们。

We're gonna go and hire them.

到什么程度你才会说，行，我们就给这个人一个机会？

At what point do you just go, all right, we're gonna give this guy a shot?

我是说，人生没有百分百的保证，但我们觉得这是正确的选择。

I mean, there's no guarantees in life, but we feel like this is the right move.

确实没有百分百的保证，但现实是，如果你在面试上做足功课，并且流程中有多个步骤，让你觉得，好吧，从才能的角度看，他们确实有才能。

Well, are no guarantees, but the reality is, is if you do your homework on the interviews and you've got multiple steps in the process to where you go, Okay, we feel like from a talent standpoint, they've got the talent.

对吧？

Okay?

我们有技能，或者我们可以培训他们掌握技能。

We've the skill sets, or we can train them on the skill sets.

他们有可塑的才能，我们可以培训。

They've got the rough talent we can train.

我们很有信心他们喜欢这类工作，天生就适合干这个。

We feel pretty good that they love this kind of work, that they're wired to do this kind of work.

而且我们觉得他们……

And we feel like they're...

你知道，他们很在乎这里的成果。

You know, that they care about the results of this place.

我们觉得他们很契合我们的文化。

We feel like they're a good culture fit.

一切看起来都挺靠谱的，都查过了。

Everything looks, you know, and checks out.

就是说，给他们以前的老板打个电话问问，你懂吧？

I mean, call the people they used to work for, You know?

做好功课。

Do your homework.

如果你做了功课，感觉也合适，那你能做的就是问自己：我有没有从理性和感性两方面全面考虑过这个候选人？

If you do your homework and it feels right, then all you can do is is say, did I logically and emotionally walk through all sides of this candidate?

如果你感觉不错，那就果断做决定。

And if you feel good, then you pull the trigger.

不能想太多。

You can't overthink it.

不然你会卡住，动弹不得。

You'll get stuck and and paralyzed.

那我们来聊聊“急需”这个话题，因为我觉得这里挺有意思的。

So let's talk about desperation for a second because I think this is an interesting piece here.

有些老板，他们真的急需人手。

Some business owners, they just really need the help.

他们需要有人来干活。

They need a warm body doing the work.

可能不是那种完美契合的拼图。

And it may not be this perfect fit puzzle piece situation.

什么时候你会觉得，好吧，他们可能不是长期的最佳人选，但能填补我们现在需要的这个空缺？

At what point do you go, alright, they may not be the best long term fit, but it's gonna fit, you know, this gap that we need right now?

你知道，这是个很难回答的问题，因为我觉得如果你真的非常急需，而且我们说的是如果不赶紧找个人来干活，生意就会受影响，那我倒是可以接受临时这么干。

You know, that's a tough question because I think if you're truly desperate, and we're talking about it hurting the business if you just don't put a warm body in there to do the job, I would be okay with that in a temporary setting.

我不喜欢的是，作为领导这么说，然后把人安排进去，接着就去处理下一个紧急问题了。

What I don't like is as a leader to say that, and then they put the person in there, and then they move on to the next fire.

如果这只是个权宜之计，那我们就把它当权宜之计来对待。

If this is a Band Aid, let's treat it like it's a Band Aid.

所以，用创可贴来打比方，最好的说法是，如果我手指割得很深，我会先清洗伤口，然后贴个创可贴止血，对吧？

And so the best way to lay that out with the Band Aid metaphor is, if I cut my finger pretty bad, then I'm gonna go clean it off, and I'm gonna put a band aid on it to try to stop the bleeding, right?

如果当时没有消炎药，或者需要缝几针什么的，我那时候能做的只是先止血。

And if I'm in a situation where I don't have the Neosporin, or I've gotta get a couple stitches or whatever, all I'm doing right then and there is we're stopping the bleeding.

但我之后肯定得回来处理，让伤口好好愈合。

But I better come back to that and get that wound healthy.

所以你得想个后续计划。

So you better come up with a plan.

好的。

Okay.

我会先找个人顶上，确保一切照常运转。

I'm gonna get a person in, and we're gonna keep everything running.

这只是个临时措施，但之后我会想办法找到合适的人选。

It's a stopgap measure, but then I'm gonna figure out a way to bring in the right person.

所以我会非常紧急地处理这件事。

So I treat it with extreme urgency.

只有在万不得已的情况下，我才会说，该做什么就做什么。

And that'd be the only way I would say in a desperation, you do what you have to do.

这不是最理想的候选人。

It's not the greatest candidate.

他们的态度也不是很好。

They don't have the greatest attitude.

也许他们对工作没有热情，也不认同使命，如果你按照我教的方法来看的话。

Maybe they're not passionate about the work and they're not on mission, okay, if you're looking at the methodology that I teach.

当一个人运用自己的天赋，做自己热爱的工作，并产生对使命至关重要的结果时，他就是在践行使命。

A person is on purpose when they're using their talent, what they do best, to do work they love, passion, to produce results that matter deeply to their mission.

如果只是有才能，那也行，但这不是长久之计。

If they are a talent only, that's okay, but that's not a long term fix.

所以这可能是临时或合同职位，这样你就不用永远绑住他们，也不用非得开除他们。

So this might be a temp or a contract position to where you're not locked in forever and you gotta fire them.

这就是我在给客户做咨询时会说的话。

This was what I would say in a consulting with one of our clients.

我会说，好，先让这个人进来，因为他们有才能。

I'd say, okay, get the person in because they've got the talent.

对吧？

Alright?

让他们进来，我们保持一切运转。

Get them in and we keep everything running.

但是，我们马上就会开始找人来替换他们，是的。

But, I mean, we are immediately looking to replace them Yeah.

找一个真正想待在那里，并且长期来看非常合适的人。

With somebody who really wants to be there and is a great fit long term.

那我们回顾一下这些步骤，让听众们更清楚。

So let's recap the steps here to make it real clear for the listeners.

我们得为面试做好准备。

We've gotta prepare for the interview.

对。

Yep.

我们得进行面试。

We've gotta conduct the interview.

要专注。

Be present.

别分心。

Don't be distracted.

然后我们还得做个复盘，是的。

And then we've got to also kinda do this debrief Yeah.

看看面试进行得怎么样。

Of how did that go?

我们接下来的步骤是什么？

What are our next steps?

先自己复盘一下。

Debrief with yourself.

和团队一起复盘，看看证据。

Debrief with your team, and look at the evidence.

证据对得上吗？

Does the evidence line up?

而且应该是压倒性的。

And it should be overwhelming.

证据应该是压倒性的。

The evidence should be overwhelming.

你之前问过我这个问题。

I mean, you asked me that earlier.

我觉得如果证据是压倒性的，而且大家都说证据很好，那就去做吧。

I think if the evidence is overwhelming and everybody's going, the evidence is good here, then let's go.

他们不会陪你一辈子。

They're not gonna be with you for the rest of your life.

所以你得接受这一点。

So get over that.

但如果他们会跟你待一阵子，那他们会表现得非常好。

But if they're gonna be with you for a while, then they're gonna do really, really well.

而且关键在于，

And here's the thing.

乔治，当你做对了，招到了好人，然后最终他们离开你的时候，你猜怎么着？

When you do this right, George, and you get a good hire and and then eventually they do leave you, guess what?

你就不那么焦虑了。

You're not as stressed out.

你会想，我以前做过，而且成功了。

You go, I've done this before, and it worked.

他们在这里待了五年，干得非常出色。

They were here for five years and they crushed it.

他们把我们带到了一个新的高度。

They took us to the next level.

他们的梦想不在这里，你懂的。

They had a dream that wasn't, you know, wasn't here.

所以，虽然他们走了我有点难过，但我知道我还能再找到这样的人。

So, you know, I'm sad that they left, but I know that I can go find another one of those.

而且看起来你随着时间会越来越擅长这件事。

And it seems like you get better at it with time.

毫无疑问，你会越来越擅长。

There's no question you get better.

你的

Your

第二十次招聘会比第一次、第二次或第三次更容易、更好。

twentieth hire is gonna be easier and better than your first or second or third.

毫无疑问。

There's no question.

毫无疑问。

No question about it.

那在我们结束之前，你想对那些可能不太期待面试流程，但又急需帮手、想把事情做对的小企业主说些什么鼓励的话呢？

So as we wrap here, what encouragement would you give the small business owner who may not be looking forward to this interview process, but they desperately need the help and they wanna do it right?

嗯，我理解。

Well, you know, I get it.

我明白，这件事可能让你宁愿去接受根管治疗。

I get it that this is something that, you know, you'd rather have a root canal.

但现实是，数据显示没有比这更重要的了。

But the reality is the data shows there's nothing more important.

没有比这更重要的了。

There's nothing more important.

我的意思是，如果你一直招错人，你就是在毁掉自己的生意。

I mean, if you just keep making bad hires, you're gonna sabotage your business.

没有什么比你拥有的优秀人才更重要了。

And there's just nothing more important than the talent you have.

没有别的了。

Nothing.

你想成为一家冠军企业吗？

You wanna be a championship company?

不管你是只有15人还是30人的水管公司。

I don't care if it's a plumbing company of 15, 30 people.

你想成为冠军。

You wanna be a champion.

你想变得出色。

You wanna be great.

你有一家很棒的公司。

You have a great company.

那你最好把真正优秀的人才招进来。

You better get really good talent in the door.

就这么简单。

It's that simple.

所以你自己选吧。

So you choose.

你想把职业生涯的大部分时间都花在当领导时撞墙上吗？

You wanna spend the majority of your working life as a leader banging your head against the wall?

哦，人。

Oh, people.

人。

People.

而且，我们跟那些人聊过，我理解。

And, again, we talk to those folks, and I get it.

顺便说一句，你这么说也没错，这确实很让人沮丧。

By the way, when you say that, you're not wrong, and it's really frustrating.

但这得怪你自己。

But that's on you.

要么你没招对人，要么你招了能从菜鸟变成冠军的人，但你没好好培养他们。

You didn't hire the right people, or you hired somebody who could go from mouth breather to champion, but you haven't trained them.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what I'm saying?

所以，你自己选吧。

So you you choose.

你是想蓬勃发展，还是只想一直挣扎求生？

You wanna thrive, or do you just wanna always be trying to survive?

这真是

That's a

一个很好的提醒，肯。

great reminder there, Ken.

嗯，我觉得你这次面试表现得很棒。

Well, I think you nailed this interview.

你被录用了。

You've got the job.

谢谢你，乔。

Thank you, Joe.

这真是太令人兴奋了。

This is very exciting.

这真是太令人兴奋了。

This is very exciting.

有点紧张。

Nervous about it.

太吓人了。

Terrifying.

你做得很好。

You did great.

我期待接下来的步骤。

I'm looking forward to the next steps.

我们会联系你的。

We'll be in touch.

太好了，乔治。

That's great, George.

你看，我现在非常兴奋。

See, now I'm very excited.

我要去给我老婆打电话，告诉她，嘿，乔治说我干得特别棒，而且接下来三到五天我就能知道结果了。

I go call my wife and say, hey, George said I did a really great job, and I'm gonna know something within the next three to five days.

我还以为你今天需要我的鼓励呢。

I thought you needed my encouragement today.

确实需要。

I did.

确实需要。

I did.

谢谢你。

Thank you.

嗯，能邀请你来上播客总是很愉快。

Well, it's always a pleasure having you on the podcast.

你做得很好。

You're doing great.

顺便说一下，乔治。

By the way, George.

我很感激。

I appreciate that.

谢谢，肯。

Thanks, Ken.

和我的朋友肯·科尔曼聊天总是很愉快。

Always a great conversation with my friend, Ken Coleman.

如果你想看看他的新书《从薪水到使命》，点击节目说明里的链接就行。

If you wanna check out his new book, From Paycheck to Purpose, just click the link in the show notes.

肯刚才为一场优秀的候选人面试搭建了一个框架。

Now Ken laid out a framework for a great candidate interview.

但这种情况在视频面试中，或者当你急需招人时，会怎么体现呢？

But how does that play out on a Zoom interview or when you're desperate to hire someone?

肯接下来会回答企业主们的这些问题。

Ken is gonna answer those questions from business owners right after this.

就像我说的，肯接了一个电话，回答了两位听众的问题。

Like I mentioned, Ken took a call and answered a question from a couple listeners.

来听听看。

Check it out.

好的。

All right.

我们连线特拉维斯，他正在内布拉斯加州的黑斯廷斯。

Let's go to Travis, who's joining us on the line in Hastings, Nebraska.

特拉维斯，你现在收听的是《EntreLeadership》播客。

Travis, you're on the EntreLeadership Podcast.

最近怎么样？

What's going on?

嘿，肯。

Hey, Ken.

你好吗？

How's it going?

很高兴来到这里。

Good to be here.

我过得挺滋润的。

I'm living the dream.

今天有什么可以帮你的？

What can I help you with today?

我的问题是，在做Zoom面试或者远程面试的时候，你怎么判断一个人是否适合你们公司的文化？

So my question was when doing like a Zoom interview or or remote interview with somebody, how do you gauge whether a person is gonna be a culture fit for your business?

当然。

Sure.

嗯，首先我想说，这其实跟Zoom没什么关系。

Well, let me start by saying it's really not Zoom related.

我觉得，面对面交流并不比通过Zoom、电话或者其他方式更能判断一个人是否适合公司文化。

I don't think that you can determine if someone is a good culture fit in person any better than you can if you're talking to them via Zoom, telephone, or any other format.

好的。

Okay.

这其实取决于你问什么样的问题。

This is really about the type of questions that you ask.

这其实取决于你想听到什么样的回答。

This is really about the answers that you're looking to hear.

所以不管对方是在Zoom上还是当面，你需要带着这个去面试，就像我在《有意图的面试》里教的那样，你得进去就问自己：我想从对方那里听到什么答案？

So whether they're on Zoom or they're in person, you need to go into this, as I teach in the Intentional Interview, You need to go in and go, what are the answers I wanna hear from somebody?

所以，在问关于你们文化的问题时，你清楚自己的文化是什么，也知道你想怎么保护它。

So as it relates to asking questions about your culture, you know what your culture is, and you know how you wanna protect it.

那我们现在就来实际演练一下，因为这会非常非常有意思。

So let's actually walk through this right now because this will be really, really fun.

我们会帮你确定要问的问题，以及你想听到的答案。

So so we're gonna help you determine the questions you would ask and then the answers that you want to hear.

所以当你面试一个人，想了解他们本人、他们的行为，并判断这是否符合你们的文化——顺便说一句，文化就是共同的行为——

So when you are interviewing somebody and you wanna ask them about themselves, their behaviors, and determine whether or not that fits into your culture, which, by the way, shared behaviors.

那你最担心的是什么？

So what are you wary of?

你想了解一个人有什么或者没有什么？

What do you wanna find out if somebody has got or somebody doesn't have?

就是看他们是不是那种愿意跳出最初岗位职责的团队型人才，愿意去接触自己不熟悉的领域，但核心还是围绕团队合作。

Kind of if if they're gonna be that team player that's willing to kinda step outside what they're initially hired to do, you know, work in areas they're not very experienced in, but around that team player focus.

好的。

Okay.

很好。

Great.

那我们现在确定了，要判断他们是否适合公司文化，至少有一点很重要，就是他们天生是不是团队型的人。

So now we've determined that what's really important, at least one thing that's important to figure out their culture fit is, are they naturally a team player?

他们怎么看待自己在团队中的角色？

How do they view themselves in the context of a team?

所以我们知道要考察的就是这个，那接下来就要想，什么样的回答才是对的？

So we know that that's what we're looking to determine, and so now we go, what's the right answer?

对你来说，对的回答就是你想听到对方说他们很喜欢成为团队的一员，对吧？

And and the right answer for you is you wanna hear somebody say that they love being a part of a team, right?

你希望听到对方说，他们总是主动去帮助别人。

You wanna hear somebody say that they find themselves always looking to help others.

那么，我们需要问哪一两个问题，才能知道他们确实会这么做呢？

So then what's the question or two that we've gotta ask that will let us know if that is in fact something that they'll do?

而且提问的方式不能太直白，不能让他们轻易猜到答案。

And you've gotta ask it in a way that it's not an easy setup.

所以，下面这些做法是不可取的。

So here's what you don't do.

对吧？

Alright?

比如，我们假设那个人叫鲍勃，因为我觉得鲍勃这个名字用来练习挺有趣的，可以吗？

So you don't say, let's just say the guy's Bob because I think Bob's a funny name for us to practice with, shall we?

比如说，嘿，鲍勃。

So say, hey, Bob.

你是个有团队精神的人吗？

Are you a team player?

你觉得鲍勃会怎么说，特拉维斯？

What do you think Bob's gonna say, Travis?

他会说愿意。

He's gonna say yes.

不。

No.

但我们怎么知道鲍勃是不是一个团队合作的人呢？

But how do we know if Bob's a team player?

我们不知道。

We don't.

我们知道的是，鲍勃是个很会演戏的人。

What we know is Bob's a really good actor.

所以我们要做的，是问一个能触及到那些我们知道会转化为团队合作的行为和价值观的问题。

So what we've gotta do is we've gotta ask a question that gets to the behavior and the values that you know will turn into teamwork.

这样讲明白吗？

Does that make sense?

当然。

For sure.

那会

That would

很好。

be good.

所以我可以帮你做这件事，但咱们一起努力吧。

So I I can do this for you, but let's work on this together.

那问题是什么？

So what's question?

那你打算怎么去判断他的行为或价值观，让你相信他会是个团队合作者？

So how would you get about trying to figure out if his behaviors or if his values lead you to believe that he's gonna be a team player?

你能问一个间接但能达到这个效果的问题吗？

What would be a question that you could ask that's indirect but would yield that result?

也许可以反过来问他，如果他自己需要别人帮忙，他会怎么做。

Maybe kind of flipping it around on him and asking him if, you know, if he was needing to have somebody else help him with something, how would he go about that?

是的。

Yes.

很好。

Great.

特拉维斯，我来告诉你为什么这很好。

Let me tell you why that's great, Travis.

现在你是在看他是否愿意合作，因为你刚才那个问题把焦点放在了他身上。

Now you're seeing if he is a person who's willing to collaborate because what you did in that question is you made it about him.

他需要帮助。

He needs help.

他会怎么去寻求或请求帮助呢？

How would he go about seeking or asking for help?

明白吗？

Okay?

这样你很快就能看出他对和别人一起工作的态度。

And so you're gonna see pretty quickly how he feels about working with others.

他是不是很要强？

Is there a lot of pride there?

因为他可能会说，嗯，一般来说，我很少遇到这种情况……

Because he could say something like, well, generally, I don't really ever have that to...

我特别自豪自己是个能独立解决问题的人。

I really pride myself in a guy who figures it out on his own.

你明白我的意思吗？

You know what mean?

那这能说明什么呢？

So what's that gonna say to you?

他……

He's...

喜欢自己一个人干活。

Likes to work by himself.

这并不代表他不是一个好的团队成员，但现在我们有了一些证据，说明可能这里有点问题。

Now does not mean that he's not a good team player, but now we've got some evidence that, okay, we might have an issue here.

那还有什么别的方式？

What would be another way?

那咱们继续往下推演。

So now let's keep playing this out.

这个问题问得好。

So that's a good question.

还有什么别的问题能帮你判断他是不是喜欢融入团队？

What would be another question that would allow you to determine whether or not he enjoys being a part of the team?

也许可以问问他的过往经历，比如在其他工作或者甚至体育方面的经历。

Maybe asking about some of his past experiences, like in other jobs or in maybe even, like, sports

他做过的事情。

Things he's done.

对。

Yes.

好。

Good.

我给你一个建议。

Here's one that I would give you.

问他，你和队友互动时最喜欢哪一点？

Ask him, what's your favorite part about interacting with your fellow teammates?

你看，这个问题有点引导性，鲍勃还是可能稍微糊弄我们一下，但我们也让他当场回想，他要么是个好演员，随便编一通，要么就会开始透露他最喜欢和别人合作的地方。

Now see, that is a little bit of a leading question, and Bob can still fake us out a little bit there, but we're also putting him on the spot where he's gotta think back, and he's either gonna be a really good actor and just BS his way through it, or he's gonna start to reveal what he enjoys most about working with others.

他可能会说，嗯，我从来没有真正处在一个我喜欢和别人一起工作的环境里。

And he might say, well, I've never really been in an environment where I've, you know, really enjoyed working with people.

我有点喜欢……

I kinda do...

这样我们就开始了解鲍勃参与团队的经历，以及他对队友和团队合作的感受。

And now we're starting to get a a biographical sketch of what Bob's involvement with a team looks like, and as a result, what Bob's emotions are around teammates and teamwork.

另一个问题是，我会问，你会怎么描述一个健康的团队文化？

Another question is is is I would ask the question, how would you describe a healthy culture?

好的。

Okay.

哦，这个可有趣了。

Oh, now this is the fun one.

特拉维斯，这个问题我一直留着呢。

I've been holding this one, Travis.

但这个问题是开放式的。

But this question is open ended.

所以就算是鲍勃那种会演戏的，他也不知道答案。

So even Bob, the actor, he doesn't know the answer.

你让他描述他认为的健康、有活力的文化是什么样的。

You're asking him to describe what he thinks a healthy, vibrant culture is.

叮叮叮。

Ding, ding, ding.

这个问题最能暴露他的真实想法。

That's gonna be the question that reveals the most.

明白吗？

Make sense?

好的。

Okay.

那个……

That...

那太好了。

That's great.

所以这些就是……

So those are...

我们刚才做的就是角色扮演，然后一起梳理了你需要具备的思维方式。

What we did there is we kinda role played and we walked through the thinking you need to have.

我希望你和所有收听这个节目的人，也要好好思考这个问题，并且说，有一件事我们不会做。

I want you and everybody else that's listening to this program, you gotta think through that as well and say, one thing we're not gonna do.

我们绝不会问是或不是的问题。

We're never gonna ask yes or no questions.

那什么都问不出来。

It doesn't reveal anything.

你是个好人吗？

Are you a great person?

是的。

Yes.

说不定他是个杀人狂呢。

He could be an axe murderer for all we know.

他不会说不是的。

He's not gonna say, no.

我是杀人狂。

I'm an axe murderer.

所以我们要问开放式的问题，看看他们会怎么回答。

So we've gotta ask questions that are that are open ended and and see where they go.

明白吗？

Alright?

这真的非常重要。

And so that's really, really important.

然后你得想想各种不同的场景，用这些场景去测试他们。

And then you gotta think all the different scenarios by which you can test them.

所以我觉得这真的能帮到你，帮你形成自己的问题。

So I think that will really help you and formulate your own questions.

好的。

Okay.

不错。

Cool.

这非常有帮助。

That's very helpful.

好的。

All right.

特拉维斯，我真的很感激你，兄弟。

Travis, I appreciate you, man.

谢谢你打来电话。

Thank you for the call.

是的。

Yes.

谢谢你，Ken。

Thanks, Ken.

好的。

Okay.

我们来看看EntreLeadership Facebook页面上的一个问题。

Let's go to a question from our EntreLeadership Facebook page.

Christine写道：我们是一家幼儿园，每个教室有一定数量的老师。

Christine writes in, We are a preschool, so we have a certain number of teachers in each classroom.

现在申请者太少了，我们根本没有挑人的余地。

And we have so few applicants right now that we don't have the luxury of being choosy.

对更高薪资的要求，导致我们不得不以越来越高的薪水雇佣不合格的人。

The demand for higher pay is causing us to hire unqualified people at higher and higher rates.

我干了十四年，从来没见过这种情况。

In my fourteen years, I've never seen anything like this.

当你真的非常急需招人来维持生意，避免关门时，你怎么避免招错人呢？

When you're truly desperate to hire people to simply keep from having to close your business, how do you avoid hiring the wrong people?

这期节目讲的是有目的的面试，而你的目的现在因为你的处境而改变了。

Well, this episode obviously is about the intentional interview, and your intention now changes because of your situation.

你没有挑三拣四的余地，因为候选人少，而且要求更高的工资。

You don't have the luxury of being choosy because of a smaller candidate pool and the demand for higher pay.

这导致你的候选人池子小得多，而且听起来他们甚至都不合格。

That's causing you to have a much, much smaller pool of candidates, and it doesn't sound like they're actually even qualified.

你说你被迫雇了不合格的人。

You said you're caused to hire unqualified people.

我对幼儿园行业不太了解，但你显然已经决定雇一些不符合要求的人。

So I don't know the preschool business very well, but you've clearly made some decisions to hire some people that don't have the desired qualification.

但他们是人，会呼吸，希望他们能好好对待孩子。

But they're a human being, they're breathing, and hopefully, gonna treat the kids nicely.

在我看来，这就是你的底线。

Sounds to me like that's your low barrier.

所以你现在要做的，就是在有目的的面试中，仍然要从这个小池子里挑出最好的人选。

So what you've gotta do here is with the intentional interview, you still have to hire the best of the small pool.

那我们该怎么办呢？

So what do we do?

嗯，虽然不理想，但我希望你去问那些能帮你判断这个人是否看重这份工作的问题。

Well, it's not ideal, but I want you to ask the questions that will allow you to determine if the person values the work.

他们重视这份工作吗？

Do they value the job?

他们可能不够格，可能不是最佳人选，但我想知道，他们是否重视这份工作，并且期待这个机会？

They may not be qualified, may not be the best candidate, but I wanna know, do they value the job and they're looking forward to this opportunity?

他们喜欢孩子吗？

Do they like children?

天哪，我们还是从一些基本的问题开始吧。

My goodness, let's go for some basics here.

他们是否希望有一段愉快的工作经历？

Do they want to have a pleasant job experience?

你得问一些非常基本的问题，而真正要弄清楚的是，如果候选人的水平不高，你要找的可能是那种未经雕琢的璞玉，找一个你能塑造的人。

You wanna ask some really fundamental questions here, and what you're really trying to determine here, if it's a not very qualified pool, what you wanna find is maybe that diamond in the rough, and you wanna find somebody that you can mold.

至少他们关心孩子，喜欢和孩子待在一起。

Somebody that at least they care for children and like being around children.

至少他们对有机会工作、拿到薪水感到兴奋。

At least they are excited about an opportunity to have a job and earn a paycheck.

如果我们就停在这里，而且他们是个不错的人，价值观和你挺匹配，你和他们聊下来，会不会觉得这是个你愿意一起吃午饭的人？

If we just stop there and they're a decent person that has pretty nice value matchup as you have a conversation with them, is this somebody that maybe you would enjoy having lunch with?

我们只是降低门槛，但还是要用有目的的面试，因为你还是得从可能不太好的候选人里挑出最好的。

We're just gonna lower the barrier, but we're still gonna apply the intentional interview because you still gotta pick the best of maybe a not so very good bunch.

所以我很抱歉你处于这种境地。

And so I'm sorry that you're in that position.

我想鼓励你的一件事是，你需要参与EntreLeadership，我们的辅导项目。

One of the things I wanna encourage you to do is you need to get engaged with EntreLeadership, our coaching.

你需要融入这个社区，弄清楚，在解决这个紧急问题之后，我该怎么前进，吸引更好的候选人，并留住那些人？

You need to get involved with the community and figure out how do I, going forward, after I fix this desperate situation, how do I move forward and attract better candidates and retain those people?

我强烈建议你去看我在EntreLeadership峰会上的演讲，我们谈到了如何吸引、招聘和留住合适的人才。

I would highly recommend you watch my talk from EntreLeadership Summit, where we talk about attracting, acquiring, and retaining the right talent.

你能做到的。

You can do this.

这不是不可能，但现在你仍然需要有意识地面试，这样才能找到最好的人选。我保证，如果你带领他们，投入精力培养他们，你就能把他们变成真正优秀的团队成员。

It is not impossible, but right now, you still gotta apply the intentional interview so that you get the best of the bunch, and I promise, if you lead them, if you pour into them, you can turn them into a really good team member.

谢谢你的提问。

Thank you for the question.

正如Ken在今天的节目中所说，你需要花时间准备面试。

As Ken talked about in today's episode, you need to put in the time to prepare for an interview.

所以我们准备了一份免费下载的资料，叫做《有意识面试清单》。

So we've put together a free download called the Intentional Interview Checklist.

这份清单将帮助你在正确进行面试的道路上起步。

This checklist will help you get started on the path to conducting interviews the right way.

要获取这份免费清单，只需点击节目说明中的链接。

To get this free checklist, just click the link in the show notes.

希望你喜欢今天的节目。

Hope you enjoyed today's episode of the show.

如果喜欢的话，给我们留个评论并订阅，这样就不会错过下一期了。

If you did, leave us a review and subscribe so you don't miss the next one.

如果你是小企业主，团队规模在2到200人之间，我们想听听你对节目的看法，喜欢什么，不喜欢什么，以及我们能改进的地方。

And if you're a small business owner with two to 200 team members, we wanna hear what you think of the show, what you like, what you don't like, and what we could do better.

点击节目中的链接，预约和我们的制作人Tim通话，给我们反馈吧。

Give us your feedback by clicking the link in the show to schedule a call with Tim, our producer.

如果你想在社交媒体上关注我们，可以在EntreLeadership上找到我们。

If you wanna keep up with us on social media, you can follow us at EntreLeadership.

本期节目由Tim Hull制作，Jacob Harrison和Bob Borquez编辑，Will Rutter混音和母带处理。

This episode was produced by Tim Hull, edited by Jacob Harrison and Bob Borquez, and mixed and mastered by Will Rutter.

我是主持人George Campbell。

I'm your host, George Campbell.

代表整个EntreLeadership团队，感谢你的收听。

And on behalf of the entire EntreLeadership team, thanks for listening.

下次再见，继续学习，继续领导。

Until next time, keep learning and keep leading.

如果你喜欢这个播客，你应该去看看Ramsey Network的其他精彩播客，比如Ramsey Call of the Day。

If you enjoy this podcast, you should check out other great podcasts from the Ramsey Network like Ramsey Call of the Day.

来看看我们新的Ramsey Call of the Day播客吧。

Check out our new Ramsey Call of the Day podcast.

它会在十分钟内给你带来关于生活和金钱的快速建议。

It'll give you a quick hit of advice about life and money in under ten minutes.

无论你在哪里听播客，都可以收听Ramsey Call of the Day。

Listen to the Ramsey Call of the Day wherever you listen to podcasts.