帕亚尔·卡达基亚（ClassPass创始人）- 全身心投入创业 [ETL回顾]

你是谁决定了你如何构建。这是由斯坦福大学eCorner为您带来的创业思想领袖系列讲座。

Who you are defines how you build. This is the Entrepreneurial Thought Leader series, brought to you by Stanford eCorner.

我是拉维·巴拉尼，斯坦福大学管理科学与工程系讲师，同时担任企业初创公司加速器Alchemist的主任。今天，我很荣幸代表STVP（斯坦福科技创业项目，即斯坦福工程学院内的创业中心）和BASIS（斯坦福创业学生商业协会）欢迎您参加创业思想领袖系列讲座。今天，我们非常高兴邀请到派尔·卡达基亚来到ETL。派尔是第一代印度裔美国人，在新泽西长大，随后从新泽西前往麻省理工学院获得管理科学学士学位。

I am Ravi Balani, a lecturer in the management science and engineering department at Stanford University, and the director of Alchemist and accelerator for enterprise startups. And I'd like to welcome you today to the entrepreneurial thought leader series presented by STVP, the Stanford Technology Ventures Program, which is the Entrepreneurship Center in the School of Engineering at Stanford and BASIS, the Business Association of Stanford entrepreneurial students. Today, I am delighted to welcome Pyle Kadakia to ETL. Pyle is a first generation Indian American growing up in New Jersey. She went on from New Jersey to go get a bachelor's degree in management science from MIT.

别因此对她有偏见。之后她成为贝恩咨询公司的顾问，在华纳集团从事战略工作，并在联合创立ClassPass担任CEO及董事长之前，创办了自己的舞蹈公司SADA。ClassPass是全球最大的健身俱乐部聚合平台，也是涵盖健身、健康与美容服务的领先应用。它是本世纪首批达到独角兽地位（估值十亿美元）的初创企业之一，并于今年十月被收购。派尔还即将在下周推出新书《突破极限，释放潜能》。

Don't hold that against her. And then she went on to be a consultant at Bain, worked in strategy at Warner, and also was the founder of her own dance company, the SADA dance company, prior to co founding ClassPass as its CEO and then chairman. ClassPass is the world's largest healthcare club aggregator and the leading app for all things fitness, wellness and beauty. ClassPass was one of the first startups to hit unicorn status, a billion dollar valuation in this decade, and then was acquired in October. Pyle is also the author of a new book launching, I believe next week, called Drop Your Limits, Rise to Your Potential.

这本书实则是张名片——无意双关——它是对你使命的召唤。现在，请和我一起以虚拟方式欢迎派尔·科达基亚。欢迎你，派尔。

And really, this book is a calling card, no pun intended. It's an invitation to your calling. So with that, please join me in giving a virtual welcome to Pyle Kodakia. Welcome, Pyle.

大家好，你们怎么样？感谢邀请。

Hi, how are you? How's everyone doing? Thank you for having me.

非常高兴你能来。派尔，我深信你的故事将深深触动在场斯坦福社群乃至更广泛的创业群体。首先我想指出，你简历中那些熠熠生辉的品牌标签——麻省理工、贝恩、ClassPass、独角兽企业ClassPass——这些可能是外界识别你的标志。但在你内心深处，这是你认同的自我定义吗？

It is great to have you. And so Pyle, I really think that your story is gonna resonate deeply with certainly a lot of the Stanford community that's here in attendance, but also just the broader entrepreneurial community. And I wanna start out just by acknowledging that there are a lot of bejeweled brands in your bio that I just read with a lot of cache. You've got MIT, Bain, ClassPass, Unicorn ClassPass that others are gonna likely instantly identify you with. But in your heart, is that how you identify yourself?

如果不是，你如何看待真实的自己？

And if not, how do you truly see you?

这是个深刻的问题——关于真实的自我。显然，我对自己人生中取得的成就感到无比荣幸。最初那份成就清单，坦白说，是源于想向父母证明他们从印度移民美国的牺牲是值得的。我渴望让他们骄傲，渴望做正确的事。

That's a deep question, how I truly see myself. But, you know, I am obviously very honored for, you know, the things I've been able to accomplish in my life. And, you know, that first list of checkmarks, I guess, for me was really driven by a want and a need to prove to my parents that their sacrifice of coming from India to America was worth it. You know, I really think that I wanted to make them proud. I wanted to do the right thing.

但在某个阶段，我必须真正活出自己的光芒，建立对自己生活和事业的期望，并相信他们已为我奠定足够基础去飞跃。这正是我创办舞蹈公司及后来ClassPass的契机。不过我的本质——那些在ClassPass之前就认识我的人，尤其是挚友们都清楚——多数人视我为舞者，因为那才是我的热情所在。在麻省理工时，大家都知道我是那个总在跳舞的女孩；甚至在贝恩工作时，我也是那个邀请全办公室来看我舞蹈表演的人。

But at some point in my journey, I had to really step into my own light and step into, you know, a way of really building my own expectations for my own life and career, and trusting that they had given me enough of a foundation to take that leap. And that's, you know, when I started building my own dance company and obviously starting ClassPass. But, you know, the core of who I am, and I think the people who knew me before I started Classplus, my closest friends all know this about me, most people see me as a dancer, because that's really what was my passion. Everyone at MIT knew me as the girl who was always dancing. And even at Bain, I was the girl who invited the entire office to my dance shows.

那就是真实的我。我竭力守护这份热爱，而它最终成为我创立ClassPass的基石。

And that was who I was. And I fought to really keep that in my life. And it really became the cornerstone of why I started ClassPass.

确实很想深入探讨这个话题，因为我们关注的重点之一就是创业旅程中那些关键节点。比如进入时刻——我称之为‘红色药丸时刻’，即你真正跃入创业领域的那个瞬间。但我想聚焦于你书中所描述的那个阶段：你人生的前二十五年简直可以命名为《勇敢跨越双重身份》。你在书中提到，学生时代既要通过啦啦队身份取悦白人同学，放学后又要立刻为印度社区表演舞蹈；进入MIT后一边求学一边组建印度舞团；毕业后进入贝恩公司工作，夜晚却与纽约艺术家们共舞。

Well, really want to dive into this because one of the things that we like to focus on are these salient moments in the entrepreneurial journey. And one is the moment of entry. I call it the red pill moment of when you actually take that leap and go into entrepreneurship. But I want to talk about that moment because in your book, it almost feels like the first twenty five years of your life could almost be titled straddling valiantly like you were straddling dual identities valiantly in school, you talked about, you know, appeasing the white kids as a cheerleader in school, but then at the same time dancing for the Indian community immediately after. And then going to Bay or going to MIT and being at MIT, but also creating an Indian troop on the side and then going on to Bayne and then also dancing with the artists in New York at night.

这种双重状态一直持续到你经历所谓的‘红色药丸时刻’。能谈谈那个转折点吗？我认为这个议题对许多斯坦福学子尤为相关——毕业后该如何选择？像你那样获得贝恩公司的职位固然是许多人梦寐以求的，但这也正是许多斯坦福学生正在纠结的问题。

And so you were straddling up until you sort of had what I would call your red pill moment. Can you talk about that? And I think this issue, especially for a lot of Stanford kids about what do they do next after college is I think a classic one. And getting that elusive job at Bain, which is what you had and what you got to pursue is sort of, I think, what's also on the minds of many of the Stanford kids.

是的。大学时期其实是开始思考‘我是谁’的绝佳阶段——剥离他人定义后的真实自我。我从小就背负着多重社会身份，过去只能将它们割裂对待：美国朋友圈、印度朋友群、艺术圈伙伴、贝恩同事圈...

Yeah. And I think, you know, being in college is an awesome time to really start thinking about who you are, right, and who you are without the definition of everyone else around you. And yes, I lived with many identities that were almost put on top of me since I was very young. And I separated a lot of them because that was the only thing I knew how. So I had my American friends, I had my Indian friends, I had my creative friends, I had my Bain friends.

直到后来我才明白，当所有身份终于融合，我能完整做自己的时候，才真正绽放光芒——那是我最成功也最快乐的阶段。毕业后当然需要积累现实经验，说实话我离开MIT到纽约时本想直接创立舞团，那才是我内心真正向往的。但我不后悔选择贝恩的经历，

And it took me a little bit to start seeing that when everyone was coming together and I was able to really be my full self, was when I really shined the most, and when I was the most successful and felt the happiest, you know? And I think when we're, you know, going into jobs after college, I think it is important to obviously get real world experience. To be honest, I wanted to start a dance company right when I left MIT and moved to New York. That was probably my, what I really thought I would end up doing. But, you know, I don't regret at all working at Bain.

也不后悔在纽约期间加入其他舞团，因为这些让我理解了现实世界的运行法则，这些经历构成了重要的人生基础。不过真正开始规划自己道路时，我做了些更符合本心的选择：比如拒绝商学院——当时几乎所有贝恩同事都去了，

I don't regret at all, you know, dancing with another dance troupe even in the middle of New York City because I had to learn how the real world worked. And I think that was a very important part of the foundation to what I did learn. That being said, I think by the time, you know, I really started charting my own journey and getting to this moment you're talking about, you know, I took a series of steps that were more aligned with my identity. So one was not going to business school. So most of my friends after Bain were going off to business school.

但我心底清楚舞蹈才是挚爱。我不知道舞蹈生涯能持续多久，所以决定立即行动。于是选择了企业工作——对在座各位而言，这种朝九晚五的生活显然更可持续：六点下班后能赶上舞蹈课，八点参加排练，从不错过演出...

And I just, in my heart, knew that I wanted to dance, and I wanted more time for this aspect of my life that I love so much. And I didn't know how old I'd be when I'd have to stop dancing. So I just was like, I need to do it now. So I decided to get a job in corporate America, which I guess to me and most of the people here, I I guess you would know that it was just a more sustainable lifestyle. I could go to the office at nine, get out at five, get to the dance class at six, get to dance rehearsal at eight, not miss a performance.

这些当时对我至关重要。这个职业选择在旁人看来或许是退步——我没有跟随主流轨迹，而是在捍卫自己的热爱与人生使命。正是这个决定让我得以创建舞团SAW，这段经历带给我的创业教育远超以往：它教会我领导力，如何让团队认同我的艺术愿景，

All that stuff was really important to me at the time. So that was sort of the first decision I took in my career that, to some people, I think felt like I was taking a step back, right? Because I wasn't following the lineage that everyone else was, but I was fighting for my own passion and my own, you know, right to fulfill my purpose. So once I took that decision, I started building a dance company, which honestly, for me, building SAW taught me more about entrepreneurship than I think any experience that I had had previously, because it taught me how to lead. It taught me how to get people to go in line with the vision I had, even though it was a dance production.

在纽约运作舞团需要雇佣舞台经理、灯光设计师，学习票务营销——这些现实世界的技能都是边做边学的。每次成功都增强了我创业的信心：从小型演出到更大制作，最终让我萌生创办科技公司的念头。正是这一步步积累，

I was in the middle of New York City. I had to hire stage managers, lighting designers, learn how to sell and sell out a show and market it. I didn't know how to do any of that in the real world. And I learned to do it. And all those things taught me so many great things about entrepreneurship and being able to put something out there and feel the confidence of succeeding.

才让我最终说出‘我要创业’这句话。

And it was a small show that led me to do a bigger show, a bigger show that led me to say, maybe I could start a tech company. And it was really steps along the journey that really got me there, That got me to that moment where I finally said, I'm going to start a company.

所以这就像是...虽然不想用‘小写e的创业’这种说法，但确实是舞蹈公司的创业经历培养了你后续进军硅谷式创业的能力。我无意暗示某种创业形式更优越——这种阶级观念确实存在，但绝非我的本意。不过这段经历确实让你学会对既定人生轨迹说不，这种能力积累最终引向了创业时刻对吗？

Okay, so it was almost as though it was the entrepreneur. I don't want to say the small e entrepreneurship, but it was the dance company entrepreneurship, which was which cultivated and start building the muscles towards getting sort of towards the classic Silicon Valley style entrepreneurship. And I don't like you know if there is this notion of a classism that one type of entrepreneurship is better, and I know that sort of what feels like it's implied. That isn't the intention, but I want to make sure that I'm capturing the takeaway correctly. But on that journey, then when you had that moment when you'd built up the muscles to say no to it sounds like the linear path or the predetermined path.

没错。

Right.

然后服下红色药丸。我称之为红色药丸时刻。感觉就像你可以追求真正热爱的事物，而不必为此牺牲既定道路。是这样吗？

And take the red pill. I call that that red pill moment. It felt like you could pursue the thing that you actually loved and not have to sacrifice that for the predetermined path. Is that right?

是的，我认为许多因素共同促成了那个时刻。首先我有了个想法，让我们回到那个灵光乍现的瞬间。当时我去旧金山拜访一位贝恩咨询和MIT的校友，那其实是我第一次真正置身于创业者群体中。大约十年前，创业还不是人们热议的话题。

Yeah, I think a lot of things led me to that moment. Well, first I had an idea, So let's kind of go to the moment that I had. I actually went to go visit a fellow, you know, Bain and MIT alum out in San Francisco. And this was actually the first time I was actually around entrepreneurs. At this time, this was about a decade ago, entrepreneurship was not what people were buzzing about.

我的朋友们都没走这条路。所以和一群创业者共处一室对我而言是个全新体验，这激发我去思考：哇，如果我能想出个点子，或许就能踏上这条职业道路。那时我对现有工作不太满意，感觉自己再次过着双重生活，急需找到解决方案。当时我在心理上本就处于职业转型期，于是决定给自己两周时间构思创业点子。

It's not what my friends were doing. And so to be in a room with a bunch of entrepreneurs was actually a very different setting for me, which inspired me to say, Woah, what if I could think of an idea, maybe I could do this and pursue this career path. I was sort of unhappy in my current job at the moment and felt like I was once again living two lives and needed to come up with a fix. So I was in that career shift mode anyway, mentally. And I decided to give myself two weeks to think of an idea.

结果36小时后在寻找芭蕾课程时，我突然顿悟到一个亟待解决的技术难题。那个瞬间我开始认真思考：能否构建解决方案？市场是否存在？但真正辞职创业还是花了五六个月时间。毕竟创意虽好，前期还需要些准备步骤。那段时期我做了几件重要的事：首先利用在贝恩积累的技能，进行了定性和定量调研。

And I ended up looking for a ballet class thirty six hours later that ended up being this epiphany of a tech problem that I knew I needed to solve. And that was sort of that moment for me that I really started putting my mind on strategizing if I could build this problem, and if there was a market and all of that. But it still took me five, six months before I quit my job and really took the leap, right? So obviously, ideas are great, but I needed to do a few steps before there. And I think a few things that I did during that time, which I thought was really important was, one, I did, you know, the qualitative and quantitative research I could do just from the skills I had, obviously, from Bain and my friends.

我做了问卷调查，向所有认识的人讲述这个创意。有趣的是，当时很多朋友主动提出要投资——要知道那还不是初创企业融资盛行的年代。我当时的反应是：等等，我还没辞职呢，怎么能收你们的支票？更有朋友表示想辞职来帮忙。这些积极反馈让我备受鼓舞。其次就是大量的市场调研，验证创意可行性，分析行业动态，这些严谨分析最终给了我纵身一跃的勇气。

I did surveys, I talked about the idea to everyone I knew. And what was interesting is so many of my friends at that time said, Hey, can I give you money to do this? Right? And this was once again, like not the time when people were investing in startups or any of that. And so I was like, Wait a second, I still have a job.

第三点或许最为关键，也涉及我们常谈的经济问题：我需要获得父母支持。虽然听起来理所当然，但二十出头的我很看重他们的祝福。工作六年后，我庆幸已有足够积蓄。和父亲详谈时，我们制定了预算，确认这笔钱能支撑三年生活——要知道过去六年我在纽约过着极简生活，就是为这样的飞跃时刻做准备。

I'm not ready to take your money. What do you mean you want to give me a check? And I had another friend saying, Hey, can I quit my job and come and help you with it? So I kind of started putting it out there, which I really, really liked and really liked the feedback I was getting. And then the second thing that I really started doing was a ton of, you know, like I said, market research, vetting the idea, seeing what was going on in the space, which I thought was a really helpful, once again, analysis for me to take the leap.

经济准备就绪后，我郑重和父母谈了追求理想的决心。由于我此前人生每个阶段都符合他们的期待，包括业余经营的舞蹈公司也运营良好，他们最终发自内心地说：'我们相信你，你一直做得很好，不如辞职去追梦吧。'这句话真正给了我展翅高飞的力量。就这样，2011年1月，我正式全心投入了创业征程。

And then the third thing, which was honestly one of the most important, and it's combined with, I think, the money conversation we all kind of have is, I needed to get my parents on board, right? I know that's something that you just think you're going to do, but I was still in my early 20s and my parents' blessing was important to me. And so after six years of working, I thankfully had enough in savings, and this is a conversation I had with my dad, where we put together a budget and I made sure I could live off of it, and we kind of predicted I had three years of runway, really, for me to live off of my salary. And by the way, I lived very frugally for those six years in the middle of New York City, because I knew that at some point in my life, I would want to take a leap. And here I was at that moment.

我在经济上做好了准备，同时也与父母进行了严肃对话，表达追求所爱的决心。由于我此前人生每个阶段都完成了他们对我的期待——包括业余经营的舞蹈公司也取得成功——他们终于能发自内心地说：'我们相信你，你做得很好，不如辞职去做这件事吧。'这真正给了我放手一搏的勇气。

So I prepared myself financially. And I also then had a really serious conversation with my parents about wanting to pursue something I loved. And I think because I had checked every box for them along the way, they, in their hearts, you know, were able to say, I believe in you. You've done everything we've asked you to do. You've done things well.

就这样，时间来到2011年1月，我正式决定全身心投入创办公司。

Even the things on the side you're doing, like my dance company, was succeeding. And they really needed to like set me free. And they finally, you know, were like, Hey, why don't you quit your job and do this? And that really gave me that time to really go and fly. And so that takes me basically to January 2011, when I really decided to go all in on starting the company.

我很喜欢这一点。意思是，这堂课教会我们如何判断一个想法是否值得你投入宝贵的一生去实现。那些牺牲的信号——比如获得父母同意、在毫无成果时就让人们投资或付出时间——其实都是这个想法可能壮大的关键指标。我想特别澄清一点，因为我知道斯坦福的学生们一定会思考这个问题（无论他们是否表达出来），那就是现在。

Well, love that. Mean, love just this lesson on knowing when an idea is good enough for you to actually put your one precious life against it. And there are all these signals of sacrifice of, you know, getting your parents consent, getting even people to give money before you've built anything people to give you time. And all those are actually key indicators that it is actually something that could become big. Having so one thing that I just want to get very clear because I know the Stanford kids are going to be thinking about this, whether they articulate this or not, right is now.

你在贝恩的经历让你意识到可以做真正热爱的事，而贝恩并非你余生所求——尽管你曾是明星员工。以你现在的认知，对于同时手握贝恩offer和创业想法的斯坦福或MIT毕业生，你会建议他们直接创业吗？还是推荐先去贝恩这类'精修学校'积累经验？

You went through this experience at Bain and you realized you could do what you actually loved and that Bain was not what you actually wanted to do with for the rest of your life, even though you were a star performer. Knowing what you know now is the takeaway for a Stanford or MIT student who's graduating with an offer to Bain and also has an idea as a startup. Would you say that you can start a company straight out of college? Do you have an opinion on that? Or would you recommend that people go get a finishing school experience like at Bain first before or something else before they start a company?

好问题。我的建议取决于你的创业构想成熟度。如果目前毫无头绪却想创业，我100%推荐选择贝恩。这段经历对我的创业帮助巨大——从人脉网络到商业思维构建、战略制定，再到融资所需的信誉背书，这些能力都至关重要。

Yeah, it's a great question. And I would, depending on where you are with your idea, right? So if you're like, I don't have an idea right now, but I kind of want to start a company, I don't know what to do, I recommend obviously going the Bain route. 100%, has Bain helped me through so many aspects of being an entrepreneur? Yes, from network to obviously my ability to think and build, you know, business ideas and strategize, give me the credibility I needed to raise capital, all those things tremendously helped.

正如我所说，有些职场经验无法通过理论学习获得。当Costco开始扩张时，我曾与高管们共事——类似贝恩时期的场景——这种环境让我游刃有余。但注意：如果你已有明确创业想法，就该放手一搏。我的核心建议是：若暂时没有更好选择，可以加入贝恩，但千万别陷入'先当经理再升合伙人'的惯性轨道——要懂得适时下车。

And like I said, there is something about real world experience that you just cannot understand. And I think, you know, once especially Costco started growing, and I was in rooms with, like other executives again that, you know, I remember being in when I was at Bain, it really felt more comfortable in a way to be in those settings for me. But look, I'm not saying to anyone, you know, if you have an idea, you should go for it. I think my, if someone's at a place where they're like, I have an offer from Bain and I really don't have a great alternative, I would say do the Bain thing. Now, my biggest advice though, is don't get stuck on the train of staying there for years, right?

这类工作容易让人陷入职业路径依赖：'先当经理，再升合伙人，走完既定晋升路线'。如果你追求这个，那很好。但关键是要保持清醒，倾听内心真正准备好的时机。

Like it becomes one of those things where you're at these jobs, you're like, yeah, I'm going to become a manager, then I'm going to become a partner, and then, you know, I'm going to do the whole track. And I think if that's what you want, that's great, but know when to get off the train and listen to yourself about when you are really prepared for it.

这正是我想提炼的关键点（抱歉现场光线问题）。可能有人会说'你现在成功了当然可以高谈追随热情'。所有像你这样取得成就的人，包括斯坦福学子们，都像经典的棉花糖实验——能为了更多奖励而忍耐不吃糖的孩子往往预示成功。不知道你是否见过这个著名心理学测试？

So this, I think, is the key point for me, and I apologize for this lighting. This is the key point for me that I want to really distill because I think some people will say, Pyle, it's easy for you to say follow your passion or your calling because you've now succeeded. And I think for everybody who's gotten to the point where you are at in life, who is overachieving and I think the Stanford kids are also sort of in this bucket where. It is sort of like the marshmallow test when you're a kid The kids that are predictive of succeeding are the ones that will forego a marshmallow when they're told to and not eat it. I don't know if you've seen that famous psychological test.

没看过实验，但我理解这个原理。

I haven't, but I understand it. Yeah.

基本实验是这样：让幼儿忍住不吃眼前的棉花糖，承诺等待后能得到双倍奖励。能忍耐的孩子被认为更可能成功。这隐喻了斯坦福/MIT学生们擅长的能力——为长期利益牺牲短期欲望。但你在书中提到的另一种牺牲，是可能危及灵魂或天职的过度牺牲。如何区分良性牺牲与恶性牺牲？

There's a basic YouTube video on if you can put a marshmallow in front of a toddler and tell them not to eat it. It's the hardest thing for a toddler to resist is to eat a marshmallow. But if they can, there it's indicative signs that they can resist short term temptation for a longer term satisfaction. So if they forgo eating one marshmallow, they'll get two marshmallows, but they have to wait for this duration of time. The ones that can wait, it's supposed to be predictive of success.

我认为这就像进入斯坦福/MIT的学生们普遍具备的特质：我们擅长自我牺牲。有些牺牲是美德（为长远放弃眼前），但你在书中描述的那种牺牲，可能已经危及灵魂或天职。如何辨别这两种牺牲？

And I would argue that that's a metaphor for all the students who end up getting into the Stanfords and the MITs of the world is that they're very good at, or we're all very good at self sacrifice. And there's a certain type of sacrifice that's deemed to be a virtue of sacrificing your short term wants for long term gains. And then there's a different sacrifice, which I think is what you're talking about in your book, where you're sacrificing to the point of your soul, really, or your calling being compromised. So how do you know when you're sacrificing as a virtue or sacrificing as a vice?

很棒的问题。关于'成功'的定义因人而异——进入贝恩是成功？创建十亿美元公司是成功？但最充实的其实是奋斗过程。我想鼓励所有人（特别是观看这个节目的观众）明白这点。说实话，过去人们总教导我'继续攀登下一级阶梯'，却没人告诉我这个真理。

Great question. And I also just wanna say, you know, we say the word success, and we really have to each define that on our own, because it's easy to say getting into bane is success, or building a billion dollar company is success. But honestly, the most fulfilling part of any of it is the journey of doing it. And I think that's really what I encourage people to do, especially everyone, you know, tuning into this. I don't think I was ever told that, you know, to be honest, I think I was told to keep going for the next step in the rung of the ladder.

而没有人告诉过我，如何才能过上充实的人生？这正是我写这本书的部分原因，回顾自己的历程时，我明白那些在旁人看来古怪的决定，其实都是在追寻内心的满足。诚然，这些选择最终让我获得了世俗意义上的成功。但说实话，真正让我感到充实的是这段旅程本身，因为我在做自己热爱的事。我从未后悔选择舞蹈。

And I wasn't told, how do you go for a fulfilled life? And that's part of why I wrote this book, because I look back at my own journey and I know I made decisions that seemed really odd to people, but I was chasing fulfillment. And look, it did lead me to success in what the world thinks. But honestly, I was fulfilled through the journey because I was doing something I loved. And I truly, I never regretted dancing.

我从未后悔带学生上课，对吧？也从未后悔为这个使命做出的牺牲。我认为关键在于——你为何而做？书中我谈到，当你审视人生抉择时，要明白核心动机是什么？是为金钱吗？

I never regretted getting somebody to class, right? And the sacrifice I had to make for that mission. And I think that's really what it comes down to is why are you doing it? You know, and I talk about in my book is when you look at decisions in your life you're making, what's the core reason you're doing it? Are you doing it for money?

是为权力？是为名声？你或许能每天这样自问所做的每个决定。抑或是为了热爱、激情与使命？当你开始以追寻热爱、激情与使命为人生准则时，所有的选择都会让你更充实。

Are you doing it for power? Are you doing it for fame? You could probably tell yourself that, right, on a daily basis, which decision you're doing. Or are you doing it for love, passion, and purpose? And I think if you start living your life, knowing that you are chasing love, passion, and purpose, all the decisions in your life will start to make, be more fulfilling for you, right?

所谓成功——要知道很多人在财富或名声上登峰造极，内心却并不快乐。因为他们忽略了热爱、激情与使命。这正是我希望人们关注的，因为我的故事本质上是关于追逐所爱、为所爱而战的故事。只不过我面临的挣扎与常人无异。

And success is, you know, and there's a lot of people who've had great money success in their life or reached fame, but they are unhappy in their life, right? Because they did not focus on love, passion and purpose. And so that is something that I really want people to focus on because in my story is really a story of someone chasing something she loved, fighting for something she loved in her life. It just happened to me the same fight everyone else was having.

说得太好了。你在书中分享了一些喜欢的名言，现在可能也会成为我的座右铭。你还对毕加索（或莎士比亚）的语录进行了延伸——生命的意义在于发现天赋，人生的目标在于将其奉献。

That's great. You share some of your favorite quotes in the book, which I think now might become my favorite quotes. And also then you add to them. You talk about in the book this quote from Picasso or Shakespeare, which is that the meaning of life is to find your gift. The purpose is to give it away.

这句话太棒了。接着你补充道（这是派尔·卡达基亚说的）：天职是既利己又利人的激情。要实现这个天职，你必须先发现它，然后将其置于优先地位。能详细阐述吗？

That is great. Then you add to that saying that pot, this is Pyle Kadakia. Your calling is a passion that exists both for yourself and for the benefit of others. In order for this calling to exist, you must first discover it and then prioritize it. Can you expound upon that?

对于那些不知道自己热爱什么、或不确定是否有天职的人——每个人都拥有天职吗？如果有，该如何发现？又该如何优先对待它？

For those that don't know what they love or they don't know if they have a calling, does everybody have a calling? And if so, how do they discover it? Then how do they prioritize it?

我们都被赋予了独特的天赋，这显然是为了服务他人。每个人都有使命，关键在于倾听并找到它。有些人很早就发现，有些人则大器晚成。

We all were put on earth with a unique gift. And obviously, it's in service of other people, right? All of us have a purpose and it's on us to really listen for that and find that, right? And some of us, look, we find it when we're really young. Some people find it when you're older.

追寻使命永远不嫌晚。但社会的期待和外界噪音常常迷惑我们，让内心蒙尘——其实使命早已存在于我们心中。最难的反而是倾听它，这正是我曾挣扎的。在华纳工作时，我就不断收到征兆——我书中提到的'共时性'可能听起来像巫术，但当我舞蹈公司登上《纽约时报》艺术版头条时，我扔掉了GMAT备考书。

You are never too old to find that in your life, right? And I think a lot of times, society's expectations, the noises around us actually end up confusing us and add a lot of clutter to us, but that purpose is actually already inside of us. And sometimes the hardest thing to do is listen to it. I know that's what I struggled with, right? Through my journey, I felt like even when I was working at Warner, I was getting all these signs, you know, I talk about synchronicities and I know that sometimes sounds like voodoo like, but I'm serious when I, you know, when I talk about the fact that, you know, when my dance company ended up on the cover of the art section of the New York Times, I threw away my GMAT books.

这些征兆在指引我去追求真正在乎的事物，那些让我更充实的东西。人们需要思考的是：当你走向天职时开启的机遇之门，对比因恐惧逃避时关闭的无数可能。

I felt like these were signs that, of telling me to go and pursue something that I truly cared about, and that I was more in line with the things that, you know, were more fulfilling for me. And I think that's really what people need to think about is the doors that can open when you go towards your calling versus all the doors you feel like you're shutting when you run away from it out of fear.

这太棒了。我喜欢书中这种并行的感觉，关于你谈到的成功定义——既有人们喜欢收集的那些象征成功的虚假装饰，也有你所说的围绕爱去明确意图的真正成功实质。这让我联想到打造伟大公司时也存在类似分野：究竟是在开发产品还是解决问题。你提到ClassPass早期就像在切割珠宝，但这些表面功夫并未带来实质改变。

That's great. I love there's also this parallel I felt between in the book between, you know, this this this idea of what you talked about about what success is, how there's the artifice of success, these, you know, jewels that people like to collect. And then there's the real substance of success, which is what you were talking about identifying what your intention is around love. And there was something I think that parallel that when it came with actually building a great company, which is whether or not you're trying to build a product or solve a problem. You talk about that how in the early days of class pass you're cutting these jewels, but they weren't moving the needle.

那么真正的实质是什么？对创业者们有什么启示？

And then what was the real substance? And what's the takeaway for founders?

作为创业者，我学到最重要的一课就是要痴迷于使命而非产品。我们总说'这是我想改变世界的方式，这是解决方案'，却过于执着自认为的解决方案，忘了它必须真正适用于现实世界。说实话，我是通过犯错明白这点的——最初推出类似OpenTable的课程预约模式时，

So, you know, as an entrepreneur, I have learned one of my biggest lessons, which is to be mission obsessed and not product obsessed, because we all tend to say, okay, here's something I want to fix in the world, and here's the solution, right? And we get very tied to the solution we think of, but we forget that it has to work, right, for everyone else in the world. And, you know, I did this by making a mistake, to be honest. I launched our first product. I thought an OpenTable like model was going to work in the class space.

所有人都认为这能成功。我融到大量资金，却最终发现根本没人来上课。书中详细写了这些虚假成功信号：巨额融资、媒体追捧、粉丝和邮箱列表，

Everyone else thought so too. I raised a lot of capital. I had a ton of funding. And ultimately, what ended up happening is no one went to class. And I, you know, I had all these false signals of success, which I talk a lot about in the book, which are things like great fundraising, great press, you know, I had followers and email addresses.

但真相是我既没有商业模式，也没改变任何人生活——因为根本没人上课。这是公司最艰难时期，却让我学到让ClassPass蜕变为韧性企业的关键：在失败中爬起，反复爬起，为使命持续奋战。我们多次调整产品，

But when it really came down to it, I had no business model and I had clearly no impact on anyone's life because no one was going to class. And this was one of the hardest times, I think, for our company, but it taught me one of the biggest lessons that I think truly made ClassPass the resilient company it was because I failed. And I learned to get back up. And then many times over, I had to learn to keep getting back up and keep fighting for the mission that was at hand. We changed our product many times.

多次改变定价策略。做这些决定总是艰难的，但我们始终以真北指标为指引。在这个全民创业时代，这种真北意识正在消失。前几天有人引用乔布斯的话很对——如果我对使命少1%的执着，早就在某个障碍前放弃了。

We changed our pricing many times. And I know, you know, it's always hard to make those decisions, but we were always doing them with a true north in mind. And I think in this day and age, when entrepreneurship is something that so many people are doing, I do think that is getting lost, the sense of having a true north. And the biggest thing, and I think someone even posted a Steve Jobs quote about this the other day, or he was talking about this, and it's so true. If I cared 1% less about my mission, I would have given up at one of the roadblocks that came about.

相信我，挑战接踵而至。创业是全天候的牺牲，你投入所有却屡屡碰壁。但真北会让你说：就算要绕树三匝，我也要抵达彼岸，因为这是我笃信的事业。

And believe me, a lot of challenges came up, right? It is a massive sacrifice to start a company. It is a 20 fourseven job, and you put everything you can into it, And it's hard and things don't work. You get a lot of no's, you hit a lot of roadblocks along the way. But what keeps you going is that true north and saying, you know what, I'm going to find a way around the tree to get to the other side, because I believe so wholeheartedly that I'm going to do this.

所以我坚信：如果创业者不明确'为什么'，很难持久。就像我三岁接触舞蹈时就注定要创建ClassPass。创业是马拉松，你需要找到值得终生奋斗的事业。

So I really believe that people out there and entrepreneurs out there, when you start an idea, if you really don't care about the why, and I honestly, I feel like I was destined to create Classplus since I was three years old and found dance. I really believe if you want something that'll last, right, and realizing that entrepreneurship is a marathon, not a sprint, it's going to take time. You have to have something that you're willing to work on till you die.

那个'为什么'，是大众所理解的ClassPass存在意义吗？

And for that why, is the why what people think it is for ClassPass?

不。这问题很好——就像西蒙·斯涅克说的'做什么、怎么做、为什么'。对多数人来说，ClassPass是课程会员制，这是表象认知。

No. So that's a great question, right? And I'm sure you guys have heard the Simon Sinek conversation on like the what, the how, and the why. And so obviously to the what for most people, it's a membership for classes, right? And a lot of people see it that way.

然后这个‘如何’没问题，对，很棒。我们无缝对接的预订系统让你能搜索和预约课程，很好。接着是‘为什么’，这是我们的愿景宣言——‘让每种生活都充分绽放’，明白吗？‘为什么’归根结底在于我们改善了人们多少小时的生活，现在谁会从外部看出来呢？这部分才是真正的北极星。但对我而言，真正在意的是在创建公司过程中，我们实际影响了人们多少生命时光。

And then the how is okay, yeah, great. We like seamlessly book we allow you to search and reserve classes, great. And then the why though, and this is our vision statement, it's every life fully lived, okay? The why comes down to hours of people's lives that we've been able to improve, right now, who would ever see that from the outside, right, and thinking that part of it being the true north. But to me, what really I cared about was how many hours of people's lives we really affected as we were building this company.

我花了些时间才意识到这就是整个平台的魔力。因为想想看，如果有预约，就意味着有业务流向我们的工作室，对吧？我们拥有积极参与且不会离开平台的用户，这意味着业务更健康。所以这些始终都与预约量息息相关——它既是业务的心跳，也是使命的脉搏。但外界没人会意识到这点，对吧？

And it took me a little bit to realize that that was the magic of the whole platform. Because guess what, if we had reservations, that means we had business that was going to our studios, right? We had people who are engaged and who aren't going to turn off of our platform, which meant we had a better business. So all those things always were impacted by the reservation number, which was the heartbeat of the business and heartbeat of the mission. But I think on the outside, no one would ever know that, right?

人们总在谈论估值和创业历程中的其他事，却很少提及‘为什么’。有人说通常只有极少数人——比如创始人和几个核心成员——才能真正理解这个‘为什么’。但我觉得当公司迷失这一点时，往往就会丧失创新力和存在意义。

Everyone always obviously talks about valuation and talks about other things in the journey, but they don't always talk about the why. And they say this, only a few people usually, usually, you know, the founder and a handful of other people can ever truly understand the why. But I think when that gets lost in a company, the company usually loses its innovation and its sense of why it exists.

但这也是个关键洞见——我特别欣赏的是你最初并未将‘为什么’与‘做什么’或衡量标准挂钩。直到发现预约量这个指标，它连接着你创业的终极精神：帮助人们实现生活满足，活出精彩人生。通过预约量这个北极星指标，度量标准终于与使命紧密相连。

But it's also, I think a key insight, which I also deeply appreciate is that you also didn't connect the why to the what or to the measurement initially. Then once you actually realized it was reservations, which was connected to the ultimate spirit of why you're doing it which was to save to for people's fulfillment for their lives to live their best lives. And that happens through the reservations that that became your North Star metric so the metric was tied

正是如此。我认为创业者该问的好问题是：你在解决世界的什么问题？以及如何判断问题已解决？那个能证明你在践行使命的关键指标是什么？

to the Exactly. And I think a really good question to ask for entrepreneurs is what problem in the world are you solving? And how do you know when you've solved it? Right? So what is that metric that really shows you that you're making progress towards that mission?

当然这必须与业务契合。真希望我早点自问这个问题——当我发现预约量就是答案时，它立刻成为公司的北极星。庆幸的是我们早期就找到了它。说实话，若非最初遭遇失败，我可能永远体会不到这点。如果一切顺遂，我们只会觉得‘不错，人们来上课了，我们做对了’。但正因跌倒过，我才更奋力捍卫这个理念。

And of course, this should be in line with your business. And I wish I asked myself that question earlier on, you know, and I, once I discovered it, it was, it just became the true north of the company. And I'm glad I almost found it early on. And in all honesty, if we hadn't failed in the beginning, I probably wouldn't have felt it, right? Because it would have just been easy to write off of, okay, great people are going to class and we did it right and blah, blah, But I'm almost glad we fell off because it made me fight for it and care about it so much more.

首笔预约成功时我欣喜若狂——我们花了三年才让产品真正运转起来。直到今天，每当有人对我说‘我用ClassPass去上课了’，这种喜悦永不褪色。这种反馈永远不嫌多，正是它推动你持续前行。

The amount of joy I had when that first reservation came through, I mean, I jumped for such joy. It took us like three years really to make like the actual product work and to get that reservation. And I remember always feeling that, like when someone comes up to me today and says like, I used ClassPass and I went to class, I'm never bored of that. Will never ever feel like someone's told me that too many times, you know? And I think that's truly means that you can, you know, you want to keep going.

这与估值无关，与达成指标无关。真正重要的是每个用户通过产品开启的人生旅程。

It's not about evaluation. It is not about hitting a metric. It is truly about every customer who joins in their life journey on the product.

为了让学员们深刻领悟这课，我想追问：当你明知前路未卜却仍决心投身这个想法时，那些征兆是什么？而真正意识到产品可行、公司运转起来的转折点是？

And so was there, just so I just want the students to really get this lesson. We talked about the moment when you knew the idea was worth committing your life to, even though you didn't know how you're gonna do it or if you're gonna succeed. And there were these signs that you had. When was the moment when you actually knew that the product was working, that the company was

远程运作时？有几个关键节点。我们迭代推出三款产品后，最终在2013年6月以会员制推出ClassPass。三个月后，我们迎来了每位创业者梦寐以求的指数级增长。

working remotely? Few things happened. Well, we had now had three products in the market because we kept iterating and we were trying to figure out which one would work. But we launched Class Class as a membership in June 2013. And three months later, we basically started having that hockey stick growth that every entrepreneur is looking for.

显然数据表现非常出色。我最欣赏的一点是，当时我并没有成千上万的客户，实际上只有大约200名客户，明白吗？人数并不多，但从增长率就能看出趋势——从50到200再到500。

And so obviously the data was really great. And I think one of the things I loved about it was I wasn't at like thousands of customers. I literally had like 200 customers, okay? It was not that many people, but I could tell in the growth rate, right? It was 50 to 200 to 500.

这个数字呈指数级增长，自然给了我极大信心。但真正打动我的是客户发来的邮件。虽然只有寥寥几封，但我至今记得那些产品评价邮件，客户告诉我们这个产品改变了他们的人生。说实话，当他们描述时，我感觉自己就像把舞蹈带给我的生命意义传递给了他们——那是个永生难忘的瞬间。

It was going up exponentially, which gave me obviously a ton of confidence. But the beauty was actually in the emails I received from the customers. It was just a few, a handful of emails I remember reading from customers reviewing the product and telling us that this product changed their life. And really honestly, when they talked about it, I felt like I had given them dance, what dance was to me in my life. And that was just a moment I will never forget.

那时我知道我们创造了奇迹。我们做出了世界上从未存在过的东西。虽然不知道它能发展到多大，但我很快意识到这是许多人生命中都在追寻的行为方式。

And I knew we had created magic. We had created something that didn't exist in the world. And I knew, you know, I didn't know how big it was going to get, but I very quickly saw that this was a behavior that many people were searching for in their life.

这是创业者故事里常见的主题——当收入没有非线性增长时，真正验证产品市场匹配度的时刻，就是用户自发传播的时候。对了，我特别喜欢你在电梯里的那个故事，就是那个...

And this is a common thread that we hear across entrepreneurial stories is this idea of in the absence of like nonlinear revenue growth, knowing you have true product market fit when people tell other people about it. Yes, right. And I love the story about you in the elevator. There was like a moment when you were, yeah.

是的，你提到的其实是病毒系数。我们做过调研，平均每个用户会向五个人推荐产品，这个病毒系数太惊人了。我们甚至跟不上需求增长速度，不得不紧急扩招销售团队来确保库存，因为业务扩张太快了。而另一个决定性时刻发生在电梯里——大概是产品上线六个月后的秋天，我在公寓电梯听到两个女孩讨论某个应用，她们正在看ClassPass，当时我简直震惊极了。

Yeah, so I think you're also talking about the viral coefficient, which, you know, we did some research and basically every person was telling five people about the product. So what a great viral coefficient. We couldn't even keep up with the volume. We had to go and hire so many more salespeople to make sure we had enough inventory on our product because we were scaling so fast. But that was my other, the other moment was I was in the elevator, this is probably in the fall, so basically like six months after we had launched the product, and I was in the elevator of my building and two girls were talking about an app and they were looking at ClassPass and I was in shock.

我忘了下电梯，简直难以置信。他们正狂热地夸赞一款产品。那感觉就像第一次在电台听到自己的单曲，我想音乐人大概就是这种感受吧。

I forgot to get off the elevator and I just couldn't believe it. They were just raving about a product. And it like hearing your single, I guess, on the radio for the first time. I'm sure that's how musicians feel.

是啊，太棒了。我们五分钟后会转向学生提问环节。同学们可以开始提交问题了，但如果不问你这个话题我会过意不去——关于艺术与商业的世界。因为我觉得你故事里贯穿的一个主题就是勇敢地跨越双重身份：印度裔与美籍、商人与舞者。

Yeah. Awesome. Well, we're gonna turn to student questions in about five minutes. So students, you can start posting your questions, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask you about these, so the worlds of art and business. And because I think one of the narratives in your stories is that you're straddling valiantly these dual identities across different things, Indianness and Americanness, business and dance.

你提到身高问题，大家都说四英尺十一英寸（约1.5米），你也坦然承认了。我甚至喜欢娇小却强壮有力的感觉。这些元素似乎总被看作对立面。但书中还有这样一个顿悟时刻——等我找到那段话...啊，这里：'接纳自我与在他人面前坦然做自己是两回事，两者都可能成为终生的课题'（引自派尔）。

You talk about your height, everybody piles four foot eleven and she's openly admitted about that. I even like being short and strong and powerful. And there's this element of these having to be dualities. And then there's also this moment and I'll just, if I find the quote, I'll read it. But there's also this moment when you come to when you realize that it doesn't have to be a duality, say, and this is in the book from Pyle, becoming comfortable with ourselves and becoming comfortable with ourselves in front of others are two different things, and both can be lifelong challenges.

如果某些人不相信我，我知道总能找到其他认可我的人。在长期分裂自我认同后，我再也不愿被定义框限。我是舞者也是商人，身材娇小却充满力量，既是印度人也是美国人。

If people didn't believe in me, I knew I would find someone else who would after splitting my identity for so long. I never wanted to be boxed in again. I'm a dancer and I'm a business person. I'm short and I'm powerful. I'm Indian and I'm American.

一个人能同时成为艺术家和商人吗？或者说，将艺术商业化是否可行？比如你身兼艺术总监和商业运营者的双重角色。让我们暂停一下，听听你对艺术与商业共存的看法——商业体系是否系统性低估艺术家价值，创造了对艺术家有害的环境？还是说两者存在共生机遇？

Can you be an artist and a business person simultaneously? Or is the combination, creating a business out of art, which is the side where you're you're I don't know if you're a business person and the you're the artistic director and the business person inside dance. Let me just pause there and actually get your reactions on this with art and business. Does business systematically undervalue the artist where it's a toxic environment for artists to be in, or is there an opportunity for the two to coincide?

因此我认为魔力在于两者结合时——当我们同时运用大脑的两个半球，展现完整的自我时。这种潜能人人都有，关键在于我们更倾向发展哪一面。我很幸运，生命中始终兼具强大的分析能力与创造力，并刻意培养这两方面的‘肌肉’。

So I think the magic is when both come together and, you know, we use a bit of our each of our brains and each of the sides of who we are, and all of us have it in us. We just really, honestly, it's which one we tend to gravitate towards. And I think I got lucky through my life. I had a very big analytical side to me, and I always had a very big creative side to me. And I allowed myself to really cultivate both sides of those muscles.

创办ClassPass时，我特别要归功于自己的创造力。虽然我拥有贝恩咨询和MIT的优秀背景，但真正让我串联线索、发现市场空白的，是那份创造力。我多次见证，过于偏重分析思维的人往往难以理解创造性思维。而现实中，企业常让分析型人才凌驾于创意型人才之上——这种现象屡见不鲜。

And so by the time I was building ClassPass, and I really give my creative side the credit on ClassPass. I, of course, knew I had great background and, you know, from Bain and MIT and all of that, but it was really the creative, I think, in me that was able to connect these dots and see something in the world that wasn't there before. And I do think, and I've learned this many times over, for people in the world who tend to really be the more analytical side and sort of not put their, you know, put their muscle into the creative side, it's harder for them to understand the creativity. And we tend to in organizations put more of the analytical people on top of the creative people, right? I've seen this obviously happen many times.

我们必须意识到创造力如何在世界中蓬勃生长。这不仅是品牌问题——人们常把创意人才局限在营销部门，这种思维定式同样有害。就像你刚才提问的框架‘你是创意型还是商业型’？我们本就不该如此割裂。应当允许完整的自我在职场中全然展现。

And I think it's really, you know, important that we are aware of how creativity thrives in the world. I mean, it's not just brand, you know, I think I feel like a lot of times people are like, Oh, yeah, like put the creative person in marketing and, you know, they kind of get boxed in too. And I think even just the way you were thinking about the question, it's like, are you creative or business? Like, let's not even define them in that way. Let us allow ourselves to just be our authentic selves and bring all parts of us to the table.

世界上不会再有第二个人能创立ClassPass——因为我曾羞于承认舞者身份，但正是舞蹈热爱者与贝恩-MIT背景的双重特质，使我成为打造这个企业的绝佳人选。所有人生面向共同造就了这个契机。

I don't know what other person in the world could have created ClassPass in the sense of, you know, and I was not proud of all these things before. Right? I was scared of, I was shy about being a dancer and in the business world before. And I learned that when, you know, it was both aspects of me being someone who loved dance, who loved going to class on top of having this Bain MIT background made me the perfect person to build this company. So it was all aspects of who I was.

这正是我们要倡导的：让人们完整地释放自我，运用全部技能——不仅是商学院的训练。在贝恩时，同事们背景多元，但我们总把焦点放在分析框架上。其实人生经历与其他技能同样塑造思维，必须融入职业发展，否则我们永远活在分裂中。

And that's really what I think we need to allow people to do is really be all of who they are and take all their skills, right? Not just their business school skills, you know, it's what else do you do outside of business school, you know? And I think at Bain, I remember everyone always had different backgrounds, but we tended to really make it always about the analytical stuff, right, and the strategy stuff that we would know, but it was so many, so much of the other experiences we go through in our lives and the other skills that actually shape our thinking, and we need to add them into our careers, because if not, we're always going be living two lives.

那么您的建议是：作为创始人，你既享有塑造理想世界的特权，也必须承担构建可持续商业模式的代价。这是否意味着对学生而言，创业才是完整表达自我的最佳路径？或者这本身也是个伪命题？

And so is your guidance then, if you're a founder, you have this virtue of creating the world that you want to live in, you have to pay the price of creating a sustainable and viable business model that you know where you can continue to have the company be alive, but you get the reward of creating your own environment. Is the takeaway then to the students to start your own thing, so that you're Is that the best path for your full self to be expressed? Or is that also a false choice yet?

不。每个人都需要找到自己的成长方式。我年轻时就知道自己具备领导力和创造力，但并非人人如此。尤其在创业生态中——

No. I mean, I think everyone needs to find how they thrive. I realized at a young age that I was a leader, and I liked creating things. I don't think everyone's in that place. Like, I think there are other people who truly, especially in the startup ecosystem, right?

有人擅长作为创始团队成员实现愿景，我有幸遇到过这样的杰出伙伴；有人天生是优秀的投资者，这是创业版图中的另一种才能；还有人更适合担任顾问或导师。

There's people who can be amazing teammates to a founder and make a vision come to life. I mean, I have been blessed with incredible people like that. There are great people who are investors, right? And that's also a different skill in the entrepreneurship landscape. And then there's other people who make great advisors and mentors.

关键要认清自己的定位——这些角色需要不同的技能组合与特质（如我们最初讨论的），必须通过实践验证。并非所有人都适合通过创业来创造理想环境，更重要的是找到让你自在的生态位，这未必非要是自己打造的。每种文化都不同，需要不断尝试并保持清醒的自我觉察。

And I think you have to know which one you are, and they are a different set of skills and they are a different set of, you know, virtues, like we were talking about from the beginning, and you really need to test that. I don't think for everyone it's, you know, create an environment you want, which means startup environment. It's find the environment that you feel the most comfortable in, but it doesn't have to be your own. Everyone can really, and every culture is very different. It's really about experimenting it and honestly being very self aware about how you feel in those environments.

舞蹈是否帮助您培养了更好的身体感知力？我好奇作为舞者的特质——比如对身体状态的敏锐觉察，是否也成为您作为商业人士的竞争优势？

Did dance help you cultivate a better body sense, like a physical sense of how you were feeling? I'm wondering if there was a connection or there's a competitive advantage even of being a dancer by the very virtue of dancing as a business person?

我认为舞蹈，尤其是与情感表达紧密相连的印度舞，让我深刻感知自己的情绪，从而培养了我的共情能力。它教会我如何自然地感受和表达情感，也赋予我梦想的勇气。这些我在年幼时就已学会，以至于长大后我不再逃避这些感受，而是尝试将它们融入所有事务中——无论是面对投资人还是激励团队，我都带着情感前行。

Well, I think it gave me a way to have empathy in a way because I was just so in touch with my emotions through dance, especially Indian dance, which is so connected to expression. I think it just taught me how to feel and how to express my feelings in a way that felt natural to me and a way to dream. And I think I just learned that at such a young age that by the time I was older, I didn't want to run away from those feelings. I tried to incorporate those feelings in everything I did from, you know, meeting investors to, you know, motivating my team. I like brought my emotion with me.

我不愿机械地说'好吧各位，这是计划'。我坚持展现完整的自我，包括所有情感。我们不该掩饰情绪，尤其在创建品牌和消费生活方式公司时——没有情感内核的企业怎能成立？

I wasn't going to be like, okay, guys. Like, here's the here's the plan. I really wanted to show up with all of who I was, which was all my emotions too. I don't think we should hide our emotions. I think especially when you're building brands and consumer lifestyle companies, how can we build companies that are void of emotion?

那样行不通，只会让一切变得僵化。这正是我们开始看到新型领导力兴起的原因——真正具备共情力，能理解团队成员也需要带着情感投入工作。

You can't do that. Will make everything stale. And I think, you know, that's why we, you know, and we're starting to see it like a new type of leadership, right? That actually does have that empathy can understand the fact that even your team needs to show up with emotion.

精彩。现在进入学生提问环节。第一个问题是：在创业过程中，是否曾有过令你想放弃的时刻？当时发生了什么，又是如何转变想法的？

Terrific. Well, we're going turn over to the student questions. So this first question is, was there any situation that makes you want that made you want to give up the business before? Was there, I guess there was a situation that made you want to give up the business before? And how did you change your mind?

能否详细描述那个关键瞬间？

So can you walk us through that moment?

这是个好问题。说实话我从未想过会失败，虽然听起来很疯狂，但我从不容许'这事成不了'的念头存在。我全身心投入创业，但在Classics时期确实遭遇低谷——记得在Techstars期间，我遭遇了防狼喷雾袭击和抢劫。

Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I never really thought that I was going to fail. And I know that's pretty crazy to say, but I just never in my mind allowed myself to have the thought that this wasn't going to work. I was very committed to building it. There was a time in the period of classics, I remember I was in Techstars and I actually got maced and mugged.

我在书里提过这段经历。当时我错误地强装无事，在未治愈创伤的情况下继续领导公司，这成了我和公司最艰难的时期。现在我总告诫创业者：必须照顾好自己。如果生活各方面失衡，你在公司就无法发挥最佳状态——初创企业需要身心健康的掌舵人，这是铁律。

I talk about this in my book. And it was a really hard time for me because I decided to act like nothing was wrong and sort of put myself back into leading my company without understanding that I needed to heal myself. And that was probably the hardest time, I think, me in the company, because I wasn't in a great place, which is why I have, I tell every entrepreneur this, you need to take care of yourself. Because if you're not in a good place, in all aspects of your life, you cannot be your best self in your company. And a startup requires having a very healthy parent, you know, it just does.

这段经历让我吸取教训，但那只是挣扎期而非放弃期。创业路上难免坎坷，但我始终坚信自己能挺过去，一直坚持战斗。

And so I think I learned a lesson from that experience, but it was a hard time. I wasn't really in a give up mode. I was just in a struggling time. And I think that happens throughout the journey, but I really never felt like I was not going to be able to do this. I just kept fighting.

这就是韧性的本质——永不言弃。

And that's what resilience is, is you just cannot give up. There a

毅力与韧性有区别吗？有人认为毅力是绝不放弃，而韧性则是审时度势的弹性。

difference between grit and resilience? So some people would say grit is just you never give up, and resilience is deciding what's appropriate for that time.

这是个好问题。我不认为这只是反复蛮干直到成功，对吧？不是这样的。我觉得关键在于能够感受它、接纳它。带着韧性去思考，我不知道，在我看来这更像是有些许回旋余地，我感受到了，比如，哦，那很痛，你懂吗？

That's a good question. I don't think this is about just banging it over and over again until it works, right? That's not it. I think it's about being able to feel it, take it in. Think with resilience, I don't know, I see it as there's like a bit more give, I felt it, like, Oh, that hurt, you know?

然后能够重新站起来。我觉得奇怪的是，这其中需要更多灵活性。毅力只是埋头苦干直到完成。而我认为重点不在于我硬撑到完成，而是承认，该死，这行不通。

And then being able to get back up. Like, I think in a weird way, has a bit more flexibility in it. Grit is just about like going through and like pounding it until it goes done. And I don't think it was about me pounding it until it gets done. It was about being like, darn, that did not work.

好吧。行。让我感受它。需要的话就哭出来。打电话给能帮我解决问题的人，然后决定制定计划，再次尝试，跌倒，再爬起来。

Okay. All right. Like, let me feel that. Let me cry if I have to. Call up the people I needed to figure out what I'm gonna do, and then decide I'm gonna create a plan and go again and try it again, and fall off, fall again and get back up.

这对我来说才是真正的韧性。

That to me is really what resilience is.

好的，下一个问题。你在事业中做过最自豪的决定是什么？哪个决定你希望当初能采取不同的方式？

Okay, next question. What is the one decision you've made in your business that you are most proud of? What is the one decision you wish you had approached differently?

哦，这很难回答。我最自豪的是什么？说实话，我最自豪的事情之一是在早期，我冒险给了几位女性机会，她们当时很年轻，职业生涯刚起步，加入公司时从事客服和一些营销工作，后来她们为ClassPass开拓了大洲市场，甚至进入了高管团队。看到这些让我非常开心。显然，我现在就可以告诉你，最让我自豪的是我们对人们生活产生的影响。

Oh, that's that's a hard one. What am I most proud of? Honestly, one of the things I am most proud of is early on, there were a few, honestly, women I took a chance on, you know, and they were really young, and they were like early in their careers, and they joined the company in like customer service and some marketing roles, and they have gone on to literally launch continents for ClassPass and be a part of the executive team. And it makes me so happy to see that. I think that was, obviously I can tell you right now, obviously one of the things I'm most proud of is the impact we've had on people's lives.

从我们的谈话中也能明显看出这点。但我从未意识到会如此有影响力的是见证这段旅程，看到别人的生活变化。记得其中一位来自贝恩咨询，后来留下来成为了公司不可或缺的人——三个月内她就成了公司支柱。我当时想，哇，我从未有过这种机会。这些女孩的人生因此改变了。

And I think that's obvious based on the conversation we had. But one thing I just never realized was going to be so impactful is watching that journey and to see, you know, someone else's life and knowing that, you know, even one of them I remember came from Bain and then she ended up staying and she was that person I could not take out of the organization or my whole company would crumble. And it happened within like three months she was there. And I just remember thinking like, wow, I never had that opportunity. And I'm like, I just remember thinking like, wow, this these girls' lives are changed because of it.

我个人为此感到骄傲。至于希望改变的决定？坦白说，现在回想起来确实很难，这与我处境有关。还是回到女性话题——我融资很多，但在A轮B轮时，那个阶段几乎没有女性投资人能进入董事会。

And I'm I'm proud of that personally. And then what's the decision what was the decision that I wish I made differently? You know, in all honesty, and now I like reflect on this and it's just hard. It's just the situation I'm in. It kind of goes back to the woman thing, but, you know, I raised a lot of money and as I got, and I would say even when I was raising my series A and B, there wasn't enough women giving capital at those stages to put on my board.

等到BCD轮时，我几乎没接触过女性投资人。我希望能有更多女性董事成员。这将成为我今后始终关注的问题，如何在能力范围内确保这点。当然融资时选择权不总在你手上，但我会持续关注并帮助其他女性。

And by the time I was raising my BCDE, I mean, was rarely a woman I ever talked to. And, you know, I just, I wish I was able to have just more women on my board. You know, it's something that I will always think about now going forward of how I make sure of that in every way I can. Obviously, it's not always your choice, right, when you're raising capital, but it is something that I keep my eye on and help other.

对于女性创业者，你有什么独特的建议想传达吗？作为经历过创业旅程的女性，你觉得哪些经验特别值得分享？

And is there any advice for female entrepreneurs that you think is, that you want to relay that you might, that might be unique as a female going through the entrepreneurial journey?

说实话，找到你真正热爱的事情。你证明得越多，事情就会变得越容易。我认为当我没有数据支撑时会更困难。当人们无法忽视我时，事情就变得简单多了，因为我的数据太有说服力了。我希望有更多女性在投资方那边分配资金，这样可能会让人们更快地迈出那一步。

Honestly, find obviously something that you love to do. And the more you can prove it out, the easier it's going to be. I think it was harder for me when I didn't have the data. It became a lot easier when people just couldn't ignore me, you know, because my data was just so strong. I wish there was more women on the other side handing out capital, because it would make people probably take the leap quicker.

但没人能否认优秀的作品和成功的产品。

But no one can deny good work and a product that's working.

下一个问题。鉴于你在学术、企业界和健身舞蹈领域都有丰富经历，你是否曾希望优先发展生活的某一方面？你是如何在不同身份之间找到平衡的？

Next question. Given that you've had so many experiences in academics, the corporate world and fitness dancing, do you ever wish that you prioritized one aspect of your life over the others? Or how did you find balance between all of your identities?

这是个好问题。回望人生时，我有时会想：我是不是应该多跳跳舞？现在39岁了，我才终于重拾舞蹈这些热爱的事物。当我刚开始创业时，还想过要不要写百老汇剧本之类的。你看，人生会带你走上不同的旅程。

You know, this is a good question. I mean, I look back at my life and sometimes I'm like, woah, like, should I have been dancing more? You know, and I'm 39 now and I am, you know, finally getting back into dance and the things I love. And I don't know, you know, I feel like when I started the journey of even entrepreneurship, I was like, Oh, maybe I'll write a Broadway play and do that. And look, life takes you on a journey.

我信任这段旅程和自己的人生选择，但确实做出过牺牲。比如我结婚较晚，生孩子也晚，但从不后悔。我认为这些事都发生在适合我的时间线上。其实我更反感社会总强调这些，这在我的书里也提到过。重要的是不要强迫别人按不适合的时间表生活，因为我一直是在追随激情而活。

I'm trusting the journey and the decisions I've made in my life, but I know that I've made sacrifices. I think personally, like, look, got married later in my life, I had a baby later in my life, but I don't regret any of those things. I think I did those things when the timeline was right for me. If anything, I really didn't love that society kept bringing those things up, something I do also talk about in my book. And I think it's important that we don't pressure people to do things on a timeline that doesn't work for them because I was living my life with my passion.

对我来说最难的可能是舞蹈事业和创建ClassPass之间的平衡。

I think the hardest thing for me was always probably dance in my career and building ClazVass.

接下来的问题是：对于那些在职业早期尚未稳定时就追随内心召唤的人（比如刚起步的艺术家面临的困境），你认为该如何应对？很多人虽然追随梦想，但经济压力可能令人难以承受。

This next question is, what do you think one can do about the dilemma that might exist when one follows their calling before they are settled earlier in their career, ie the starting artist dilemma. So there are many people who, you know, follow their callings, but then the the economics of it can be unbearable.

这确实很难，我在指导艺术家时经常看到这种情况。归根结底，你必须确保能养活自己并承担责任。没有这些基础，你根本无法按自己想要的方式创作。我看到很多艺术家最终开始憎恨自己的艺术，因为它变成了谋生工具。

You know, this is a hard one and I feel like I I see this all the time with artists that I want to, you know, mentor and coach. Look, at the end of the day, you need to make sure you can live and be responsible. I think without those things, you don't, you just don't have the luxury to create in the way you want to. And you end up, especially I think, and I'm gonna talk about artistry, I think I see a lot of artists then start hating their art because it becomes a job to them. Right?

所以必须谨慎思考如何将这些热爱转化为生活方式。毕竟我们都有账单要付。你需要找到负责任的方式。记得我初创ClassPass时，也做过各种兼职。教育背景非常重要，它让我能在创业无收入时通过其他方式赚钱。

And so you have to sort of be careful on how do you translate those things into a way of life, right? Because at the end of the day, we still all have bills to pay and all of that. And so you need to find a way to be responsible. And I remember, you know, for me, even when I was starting ClassPass, I mean, I took some like random jobs on the side. Like, think having education is so important and it allowed me to sometimes even make money on the side while I had no income building the company.

我确保自己不会陷入因经济压力做出错误决定的境地。关键是要想清楚你到底需要多少钱——人们常忽略这点：不要和别人比较。在纽约的前六年，我几乎没旅行过。

And I made sure that I could always feel like I wasn't in a place where I was, you know, making bad decisions for my future economically. And I think that's just an important conversation to have of how much money do you really need, right? I think that's the other thing that a lot of people don't always talk about is don't compare your life to other people. I spent my first six years in New York. I barely traveled.

我并没有购买任何衣服、包包之类的东西。我有朋友会那么做，但我根本不在意这些。当然，他们在乎这些并且应该把钱花在那上面。我认为关键在于弄清楚你自己真正在意什么。

I didn't buy any like clothes or bags or any of that. Like I had friends who were doing that. I just didn't care about that. And by way, they did care about it and they should spend money on that. I think it's really about figuring out what you cared about.

于是我直接为每场丹秀开出了3万美元的支票，因为这就是我在乎的事。所以我觉得关键在于明确金钱在你生命中的意义，制定可行的预算方案，然后找到方法让它不至于占据你的全部生活，同时建立计划以便在时机成熟时能够迈出那一步。

And I went ahead and put down a check for $30,000 per Dan show because that's what I cared about. And so I think it's a matter of figuring out in your life what money means to you, coming up with a budget that's going to work, and then finding a way to make that, you know, not take up your life and building a plan so you can take that leap when you're ready for it.

能否谈谈那些贯穿你人生的超越性价值观？我注意到其中一个重要价值似乎是社群——你提到的所有舞蹈中，最爱的加巴舞（garba）就是集体舞蹈。你无法独自跳加巴舞。

Can you talk about these transcendent values that have shaped you throughout your life? One of the things that I keyed in on was it feels like there's a huge value in community that is a source for you. You're of all the dances that you talk about. One of your favorite dances I think is garba garba is gang is a communal dance. You cannot do garba.

或许技术上可以，但实质上你无法独自或仅两人跳加巴舞。这需要整个社群参与。你一生都在创建社群，当理想中的社群不存在时就去创造它。社群的特质就在于你无法控制它——你必须置身于塑造你的环境中，并主动创造这种需要你全然投入的环境。

Maybe you can, but you really can't do garba on your own or even one on one. You need to have a whole community and you throughout your life create communities. You create these communities that you want to exist when they don't exist, and it feels like there's something about a community where the virtue of it is that you can't. You can't you can't control your own community. You have to be in an environment that shapes you and you have to create that environment to surrender to.

不知我是否过度解读，但能否谈谈社群是否是你行动的重要动力？对你而言，社群与艺术、社群与创业之间有着怎样的关系？

And I don't know if I'm reading too much into this, but can you talk about is community a significant factor in what moves you and how is the relationship between community and art and community and entrepreneurship for you?

对我来说，始终是关于行动和感知他人感受。我在书中提到过，就像年少时跳舞教会我如何触动他人。我热爱分享，而社群本质就是分享——无论是通过对话、产品创造还是舞蹈艺术来服务他人。我总在寻找志同道合的共创者，无论是舞蹈社群还是ClassPass团队，那些真正想改变世界的人总能点燃我的热情。

For me, it's always been about doing things and like seeing how other people feel. Like, I think I talk about that in the book as my calling about even when I danced when I was younger, it taught me in my life how I can make someone feel something. And I've always just loved sharing, you know, and I think community is sharing, you know, and it gives you a way to be in service of other people, whether it's through conversation, through creating products, through dancing and art. And I've always loved finding people who want to, you know, create with me in the same way, whether it's my dance community, obviously my team at ClassPass. I love people who truly want to impact the world and that fires me up, you know?

我们都需要被这样的人包围，因为这会让我们敢于梦想更宏大。就像埃莉诺·罗斯福说的'要与思考理念的人为伍'，这是人生最好的选择之一。我特别鼓励年轻朋友们这样做——记得大学毕业后几年，我和斯坦福毕业的Melanie Kanoka（她后来去了麦肯锡却想当演员，而我在贝恩却想跳舞）成为室友，周五周六我们总是留在家。

And I think we all need to be surrounded by people like that because it makes us even dream bigger, right? What is that Eleanor Roosevelt quote about like, surrounding yourself with people who think about ideas, right? It's really one of the best things you can do. And I encourage people, especially at, you know, these, the young age, you know, that you guys are at, like, I think I made a decision. I remember this in, it was probably a few years after college, me and one of my friends, she was actually, she went to Stanford.

当所有朋友都外出时，我们留在家里：她准备试镜，我给她看我的舞蹈编排。拥有彼此对我们那个阶段享受生活至关重要，让我们不会因选择不同道路而自我怀疑。当你生活中越多这样的人，你就会越自在——因为社会总在推着你走常规道路，但若发现与他人心灵相通的火花，就去建立联结吧。

Her name is Melanie Kanoka. Don't know if anyone here knows her, but Melanie who want, she went to McKinsey, but wanted to be an actress, and I was at Bain and wanted to dance. And we luckily became really good friends, and we became roommates, and we would spend our Friday and Saturday nights staying home. We didn't go out, all of our friends would go out. We would stay home and she would work on her auditions and I would show her my dances and choreography.

人们常忘记我们需要不同类型的人来真正释放自我。找到能支持你独特梦想的朋友关系，这种联结能让你在逆流中保持坚定。

And I think having each other was critical to our ability to enjoy our lives at that age and not feel bad and sort of like have a friend that was going to support our dreams that we really had because it felt, both of us felt like we were doing something that was different. And I think the more you have people like that in your life and surround yourself with those people, you're gonna feel better, right? Because there's always gonna be that momentum of that gush of people who are telling you to go on the same exact road society is pushing you into. But if you start having, you know, if you see that glimmer in someone else and you see that some, you know, something's connecting to you, go and talk to them and figure out, you know, what kind of friendship and what kind of, you know, relationship you can have because, you know, I think people forget that we all need to be around different types of people that to really unleash ourselves.

Pilate，工程学院近年来的核心主题是'原则驱动的创业'——在利益冲突的艰难时刻，依据价值观框架做出决策，特别是当资本主义答案与价值观答案相悖时，选择后者。这是否与你创业历程中的某些挣扎产生共鸣？能否分享某个你不得不坚守原则或凭借价值观度过难关的关键时刻？

Pilate, one of the core themes for the School of Engineering for certainly for the last few years and this year is principle driven entrepreneurship. The idea of in difficult times when you have conflicting interests, having a principle driven framework of some values that you appeal to to make a decision, especially when times are tough. And especially maybe when times when the capitalist answer may be orthogonal to the values driven answer and choosing a values driven answer or deciding how you're going to navigate difficult situations with values or principles. If that does resonate or map with situations that you wrestled with on the journey, is there a moment or a story that you can share in your journey when you had to be principle driven or when there was a value that you appealed to navigate through a difficult time?

是的，我认为最艰难的决定之一就是不得不终止我们的无限次产品，那曾是我的心血。我深爱ClassPass的无限次产品模式，但它让公司持续亏损。这个决定既是出于原则，也是为了真正修复问题以实现使命。我记得有次在办公室，团队有人为社交媒体采访我时问：‘你每周锻炼几次？’我回答‘我每天都锻炼’，她立刻阻止我说‘别这么讲’——

Yeah, I think one of the hardest was when we had to sunset our unlimited product, which was my heart and soul. Like, I loved our unlimited ClassPass product model, but it was bleeding our business. And it was obviously out of principle and, you know, at the same time it came out of a need to really fix it for the mission because I remember showing up to the office and I think I'm not one of someone on my team was interviewing me for social and asked me this question of, you know, how many times do you work out? And I'm like, I work out every day, you know? And she's like, wait, don't say that.

我们本意不是鼓励人们每天锻炼。那一刻我意识到：我们创造了什么？这完全背离了创立公司的初衷。那时我明白必须取消这个产品，因为它既违背使命无法正确引导团队，也明显与当时商业利益相冲突。

We don't want people to work out every day. And I was like, what have we created here? You know, like, the antithesis of everything we started this company for. And that's when I knew we had to get rid of it, you know, because it wasn't aligned with the mission, pushing the team in the right way. And it wasn't aligned, obviously, with our business at that point.

这对我来说是个极其痛苦的决定，可能是ClassPass发展历程中最艰难的抉择之一。

So that was a really hard, hard, hard decision for me to make. It was probably one of the toughest in the ClassPass journey.

Pyle，你在著作最后部分提出了‘人生通行证’方法论，用于帮助人们确立个人使命、目标和优先级。能否用最后的时间简要阐述这个方法的核心？人们该如何培养个人使命感和目标感？

And, Pyle, you dedicate the final part of your book towards the life pass method, which is a way to identify your own personal mission set goals and priorities. Do you want to distill as for final as with final thoughts on what the life pass method is and how people can cultivate their own sense of a personal mission and purpose?

确实。我们从小到大几乎没人教过如何设定目标并建立自我预期。大约七年前ClassPass即将起飞时，虽然事业 checklist 都达标了，但我发现个人生活一团糟——停止了跳舞、健康状况差、单身、

Yeah. You know, once again, I don't think anyone's ever told us in our lives how to set goals and really build expectations for ourselves. And I realized is about seven years ago, Class House was about to take off. So once again, I had just like checked all the boxes and here I had a startup that I knew was going to work, but I looked at my personal life and I just felt like things were not going well. I stopped dancing, my health wasn't good, I was single.

与朋友关系也不理想。那时我意识到需要建立一套像职业管理体系那样完善的个人生活系统。在场多数A型人格的朋友可能都经历过类似困境。这个系统要从意图和情绪出发，帮助聚焦真正想设定目标的生活领域，然后制定优质目标——我对自己执行力有信心，

I felt like my relationships weren't great with my friends. And I realized I needed a system that was, you know, as good as the one I usually did for my professional life and my personal life. And I'm sure, you know, most of the people here are pretty type A, so they'd probably get themselves in similar situations. And so I needed a system that I felt like started with my intentions and my thoughts and emotions that would help me focus in on the areas of my life I really wanted to set goals in and then set really good goals. And that was something I trusted myself with.

只要设定就必定完成，因为我已训练自己做到这点。但当时我不懂如何在个人生活设定目标。实践这个方法后，我一个月后就遇到了现在的丈夫，人生也随之改变。这个方法让我在整个创业旅程中保持平衡与充实。

I knew if I set a goal, I was going to do it because that's how I had trained myself up until that point, but I didn't know how to set goals in my personal life. And so I finally did. And I mean, I met my husband actually a month after I started doing that. And then obviously a lot of other things happen in my life too. But I really credit that to keeping me balanced and fulfilled through this, you know, through this journey.

常有人问我如何兼顾事业决策、生育家庭、坚持跳舞等众多事项。我的秘诀是季度性规划——每季度专注做好优先事项，

I think people always ask me, I've made, I've made a lot of career decisions. I've made, you know, I've had, I had a baby, a family, all that stuff, and danced a ton through this journey too. And everyone's like, how do you do it all? And what I just do is, it's a quarterly process. I just prioritize what I want to do in that quarter.

完美执行后再转向新目标。这样我仿佛活了几次人生。其实每个人都该如此，像迭代公司那样持续迭代自我。

And I do it really well. And then I move on and I go and do something else. So I get to live like multiple lives. And I think we all should. We should be iterating on ourselves the same way we iterate on our companies.

《创业思想领袖系列》是斯坦福eCorner原创节目。我们分享的故事与经验旨在助您获得洞察机遇的勇气与智慧。本节目由斯坦福科技创业计划与管理科学与工程系联合呈现，更多内容请访问ecorner.stanford.edu。

The entrepreneurial thought leader series is a Stanford eCorner original production. The stories and lessons on Stanford eCorner are designed to help you find the courage and clarity to see and seize opportunities. Stanford eCorner is led by the Stanford Technology Ventures Program and Stanford's Department of Management Science and Engineering. To learn more, please visit us at ecorner.stanford.edu.