代理式人工智能将加密货币提升到新水平？

他们的正常运行时间令人怀疑。

Their uptime is questionable.

他们的停机时间是不可接受的，坦白说，到目前为止他们唯一展示的用例就是表情包代币。

Their downtime is unacceptable, and quite frankly, the only use case that they've demonstrated is meme coins at this point.

所以如果他们还有其他计划，那也没关系，我更支持这个领域里的所有人，而不是银行。

So if they've got other things up their sleeve, that's fine, and I'm I'm rooting for everybody more so in the space than I am for the banks.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以，别误会我的意思。

So, like, don't get me wrong.

我不是反对 Solana。

I'm not, like, anti Solana.

我有我的批评，但这些批评是基于对这些技术如何运作的客观理解。

Like, I have my criticisms, and I but it's based on just objective understanding of, you know, how these things work.

现在，他们的设计决策是，他们会辩称自己优先考虑了扩展性、产品市场契合度等，而把去中心化留到以后再做。

Now their design decisions, you know, they are going to argue one set of things that they made these these choices about scaling and and getting product market fit and all that over, pure decentralization, and then we'll decentralize later.

但事情并不总是这样发展的。

Well, it doesn't always work that way.

对吧？

Right?

你知道，掌权的人不太可能轻易放弃权力。

Like, you know, people in power are very unlikely to give up power.

对吧？

Right?

所以我不确定。

So I don't know.

我对它有一些批评意见。

I have my criticisms about it.

我会说，自己做研究（DYOR）。

I would say DYOR, do your own research.

弄清楚你关心什么，然后将它与你认为的客观分析对齐。

Figure out what you care about, and then align that with what you feel like the objective analysis is.

实际上，现在像ChatGPT、Gemini、Grok这些工具都很好，可以直接问它们。

Actually, ChatGPT, Gemini, Grok, these are all good tools nowadays to actually, like, ask them.

比如，一个优秀的区块链应该具备哪些特性？

Like, what are the features of a good blockchain?

理论上，它应该是什么样的？

Like, theoretically, what should it be?

然后对所有主要的区块链进行对比分析，它们会告诉你答案。

And do a comparison analysis against all of the major chains, and it'll tell you.

要弄清楚哪些区块链真正做到了这一点，并不难。

It's not hard to figure out, like, which ones are actually doing it.

以太坊并不是坚不可摧的。

Ethereum isn't impenetrable.

以太坊也不是必然的赢家。

Ethereum isn't the guaranteed winner.

我觉得，正如我之前说的，以太坊需要更明确地厘清自己的实际目标，而不是陷入那些理论化的、近乎宗教般的叙事中，比如所谓的‘无限花园’。

I think that Ethereum what I said earlier about Ethereum needs to take a more prominent role in figuring itself out as far as, like, what its actual stated goals are versus these theoretical sort of pseudo religious narratives, right, where it's, oh, the Infinite Garden.

是的，就是这样。

It's like, yeah.

好吧。

Okay.

但这其实没什么可操作性。

Well, that's not really actionable.

比如，我们究竟该如何实现？作为生态系统中的人，我们该做些什么呢？

Like, how are we actually getting there, and what what should we be doing as, you know, people in the ecosystem?

那么，该用什么样的叙事呢？

So what should the narrative be?

我的观点是，我认为全球结算层最有可能成为所有应用构建的基础。

My point of view is I think the global settlement layer is probably the most likely everything gets built.

去信任确实很重要。

Well, trustlessness is important.

对吧？

Right?

如果我们操作得当，你完全无需信任智能合约交易另一端的任何一方。

It's you don't have to trust somebody on the other end of a smart contract transaction if we do this correctly.

没错吧？

Right?

而且我也不需要信任那些运行区块链的人，因为这套体系本身就能独立运转、履行功能。

And I don't have to trust the people running the blockchain either because it just is and does.

对吧？

Right?

它就是能稳定运转。

It just works.

所以不管我们如何实现这个目标，我大致觉得，我之前看到有人写过一段话，说区块链原本的非金融类应用场景，到如今全都变成了金融类应用。

So however we get there, I think largely well, there was a piece that I saw somebody write that said, well, the nonfinancial use cases for blockchain, now they're all financial uses.

它们全都是金融类用途。

They're all financial uses.

去中心化自治组织（DAO）也全都是金融属性的。

DAOs are all financial.

NFT是金融性的。

NFTs are financial.

你知道，它们在某种程度上都是金融性的。

You know, they're all financial in some way.

我觉得这是世界经济的底层。

Like, I think it's the world economic layer.

对吧？

Right?

那么，我们如何在全球范围内真正地进行商业往来呢？

So how do we actually engage in commerce with each other globally?

我觉得这发生在以太坊上。

I think it it happens on Ethereum.

机构采用之所以合理，是因为坦白说，当人们已经上链时，让他们做事情会容易得多。

Now why the institutional adoption makes a lot of sense is because, you know, quite frankly, it's gonna be much easier to get people to do things when they're already on chain.

过去十年里，我们从未能让人们大规模地上链，除非是为了特定的事情，比如购买NFT，但他们并不想在链上做其他所有事情。

We were never able over ten years to get people to come on chain in droves unless it was for a particular thing like buying an NFT, but they didn't want to do everything else in there.

他们不想在链上进行社交。

They didn't want to do social on chain.

他们不想做所有这些其他事情，因为太复杂了。

They didn't want to do all these other things because it's too complex.

它并不更便宜、更好、更快，而这通常是基本准则。

It's not cheaper, better, faster, which is kind of the rule of thumb.

所以，如果你不能做到更便宜、更好、更快，除非有很强的激励，否则人们不会长期使用它。

So, like, if you're not going to get to cheaper, better, faster, people aren't going to use it long term unless you're incentivizing by a lot.

是的。

Yeah.

但这还不够。

But it's not enough.

但事实上，传统金融机构正越来越擅长在我们的领域击败我们，而且执行得非常好，对吧？

But it actually looks like, increasingly, traditional finance institutions besting us at our own game, and they're executing extremely well, right?

所以，如果你看看Stripe如何将稳定币和加密货币支付通道直接整合到全球支付基础设施中，再看看是什么真正把人们带入链上，或者让他们获得代币，那其实是Revolut、Binance和Robinhood这类平台。

So, of, if you look at kind of what Stripe is doing with integrating stables and crypto rails directly into global payments infrastructure, and if you look at what kind of brings people on chain, or kind of what gets them tokens, it's the revolutes and Binances of the Robinhoods.

然后贝莱德正在以太坊上对资产进行代币化。

Then BlackRock is tokenizing assets on Ethereum.

因此，在很多方面，这些参与者提供的用户体验更快，触达的用户也比原生加密团队更多。

So kind of in many ways, kind of these players are shipping faster user experience and reaching more users than native crypto teams.

对吧？

Right?

嗯，确实如此。

Well, yeah.

他们本身也有天然的分发渠道。

They have natural distribution too.

我的意思是，他们已经拥有庞大的传统产品分发网络。

I mean, already has a huge distribution network for their analog products.

对吧？

Right?

所以，Web2.0 对这些公司来说并不陌生。

So Web two zero is not an unfamiliar thing to any of these guys.

他们已经

They already

对我们有发言权吗？

have a say about us?

我们一直试图做这件事十年了，但一直不太成功。

That kind of like we've been trying to do this for ten years and kind of failing.

他们说我们试图同时处理太多事情。

Says that we were trying to tackle too many things at once.

我认为我们当时想的是，我们试图创新技术。

I think we were trying to get we were trying to innovate technology.

对吧？

Right?

试图证明全新的经济模型，同时还要让用户愿意使用比登录银行更复杂的东西，还要为完全新颖的产品找到市场契合点。

Trying to prove entirely new economic models, and we're trying to get users to to opt in to using something that's more difficult than just signing into your bank all at the same time and trying to get product market fit for completely new things.

我的意思是，我们试图把整片海洋煮沸。

I mean, we're trying to boil the ocean.

为了试图煮沸整片海洋，我们已经做得相当不错了。

And for trying to boil the ocean, we did pretty damn good.

但我的意思是，当所有人都上链后，你看。

But, like, what I'm saying what I'm saying is when everybody comes on chain and look.

我就直说了，这就像罗马天主教会成立时那样，你知道它是怎么形成的吗？

I'm just gonna say it, but, like, it's kind of like when the Roman Catholic church was formed, it got you know how it got formed?

我的意思是，皇帝君士坦丁当时在罗马面临一个局面：各种基督教派别纷纷涌现，那时候甚至都不叫基督教，但罗马到处都是这些不同的思潮，情况非常混乱。

I mean, the emperor Constantine was basically faced with a situation in Rome where there was all of these sects of Christianity that had popped up, and they didn't even really call it Christianity back then, but there's all these various sort of things happening in Rome, and it was a lot.

明白吗？

Okay?

简单来说，君士坦丁说：既然打不赢，那就加入他们。

And and they basically TLDR, Constantine said, well, if you can't beat him, join him.

他无法阻止这一切。

He couldn't stop it.

他试过了。

He tried.

他试过了，甚至他的前任也试过。

He tried, or even his predecessors tried.

但他声称自己有一个宏大的愿景，那就是罗马军队的盾牌上要有一个巨大的十字架，因此他感到必须皈依基督教。

Like but he claimed that he had this big vision where the, you know, the Roman army would had this big cross on their shield, so he felt compelled to convert to Christianity.

然后，哦，我们就直接把它定为国教吧，诸如此类。

And then, like, oh, well, we're just gonna make it the state based religion and all this.

那这到底是什么呢？

Well, what was that really?

那其实就是对基督教的收编。

What that was a co opting of Christianity is what it was.

所以基督教的原则是可以争论的。

So the principles of Christianity were up for debate.

当时有几十种不同的派别，信仰各不相同，而他想把它们统一成一种，然后禁止其他所有派别。

You had dozens and dozens of various types of sex believing different things, and he wanted to consolidate it to one thing, and then he outlawed everything else.

对吧？

Right?

所以尼西亚公会议以及《圣经》的正典化等一系列事情就这样发生了。

So the Council of Nicaea and all the the kind of canonization of the Bible and all of that became a thing.

这其实就是机构接管了加密信仰。

So that was that was kind of like the institutions taking over crypto.

现在快进到一千七百年或一千八百年后，我们如今在哪里？

Now fast forward, you know, eighteen hundred years, seventeen hundred years, and where are we now?

基督教如今遍布全球，而且不只是罗马天主教会。

Well, Christianity is all over the globe, and it's not just the Roman Catholic church.

罗马天主教会只是基督教整体中非常小的一部分，尽管天主教徒数量庞大。

The Roman Catholic church is a very small component of overall Christianity, although there are a ton of Catholics.

总的来说，基督教现在更像是一种世界观，而不仅仅是一种宗教。

Generally Christianity is a worldview now more than it is just a religion.

好的。

Okay.

它在很大程度上已经成为许多人基于原则行事的方式。

It is kind of how a lot of people operate from a principles perspective.

这一切都始于你能够追溯到很早以前，而真正的规模化是在罗马时期发生的。

And it all started, you know, you can trace it all the way back, you know, and and the real scaling of it happened with Rome.

有什么不同吗？

What's different?

其实并没有太大不同。

It's really not that different.

只是它会加速得快得多，因为这是技术，而不再像以前那样，我得骑马或坐船去远方传播福音。

It's just gonna accelerate a lot faster because it's technology and it's not just, you know, I don't have to get on a horse and go travel somewhere or get on a boat and go travel somewhere to spread the good word.

我完全可以打字发到Reddit聊天里，想做什么就做什么。

I can literally type it into a Reddit chat, and I can do whatever I want.

但如果银行、所有支付公司都在链上，每个人都在链上，并且都学会了使用这些工具，而代理式AI还在链上替你做事，那还有什么能阻止去中心化应用已经拥有现成的分发渠道呢？

But if the banks are on chain and all the payment companies are on chain and everyone's on chain and everyone learns how to use these things and Agentic AI is kind of running around doing things for you on chain, like what's to stop decentralized applications from then already having access to distribution?

所以让我稍微反驳一下。

So kind of let me push back a little bit.

如果你仔细看看耶稣实际说过的话，会发现它们和今天的基督教教义并不完全一致，对吧？

So kind of if you kind of look at Jesus' of the statements that he actually made, kind of they are not very commensurate with kind of what Christian doctrine is today, right?

我没料到这个播客会谈到这个方向，所以我对这方面有点生疏了。

And I did not see the podcast going this way, so kind of I'm a little rusty on my

我只是用它作为例子，并不是要精确表达。

I'm only using it as an example, not to be precise.

是的，我知道。

Yeah, I know.

但同样地，就像君士坦丁把基督教当作工具加以利用一样，银行和金融机构现在也在做同样的事，对吧？

But, in the same way, kind of, that Constantine kind of co opted Christianity as a tool, kind of banks and financial institutions are doing the same, right?

它们并没有把这当作一次范式转变——我们原本以为这会带来前所未有的协调能力，实现集体所有制、分布式的奖励机制，让普通人真正受益。

Kind of like they're not using as a paradigm shift, like kind of we thought should happen, in the sense that kind of like this enables coordination at unprecedented scale and kind of it allows collective ownership of whatever and kind of distributed reward systems and kind of just making everything fairer and better for the Liddle man.

我的意思是，就连你一开始提到的平台化论点——什么‘这个领域的Uber’、‘那个领域的Uber’——如果所有人都用同一个平台，问题根本就不会存在。

I mean, even kind of the platformification argument that kind of you alluded to in the very beginning with kind of like the Uber of this and the Uber of that, kind of like if everyone kind of came onto the same platform, we wouldn't have the problem.

你的HR问题也会随之消失，诸如此类。

And kind of like your HR problems would have gone away, and so on.

所以，这种认为区块链会彻底改变社会运作方式的观念，如今却被银行仅仅当作后台升级而消解了，对吧？

So, kind of the idea that kind of this would be a paradigm shift in kind of how societies work, that is done away with by banks just using it as a back end upgrade, right?

通过说，好吧，原则上，我们现在实际上是

By kind of saying, okay, in principle, kind of we're now we're kind of

但银行的模式到底是什么？

But what's bank's mode, though?

我同意你的观点，如果这就是终点，那我们就彻底失败了。

I agree with you that if that's where it ends, then we've completely and totally failed.

如果这就是终点的话。

If that's where it ends.

我认为，对一些人来说，银行和金融机构对加密货币的吸收就是一种失败。

And I think for some people, the co opting of crypto by the banks, by the financial institutions is failure.

我认为有些人真的这么认为。

I think some people actually believe this.

但我要说的是，一旦工具被释放出来，或者说，当加密工具变得更容易让人们直接在链上运作时，你怎么可能阻止其他这些事情再次兴起？

What I'm saying though is once the cat's out of the bag or the genie's out of the bottle when it comes to, you know, the tools, the crypto tools, and making it easier for people to just function on chain, how do you stop any of these other things from resurging again?

银行的护城河是什么？

What's the bank's moat?

我是说，如果我能跳过这一部分，我们换种说法吧。

Like, what's if I if I can if I can cut out so let's put it this way.

银行上链并不会让我这个消费者省钱。

The banks coming on chain isn't gonna save me any money as a consumer.

它不会让我省一分钱。

It's not gonna save me a dime.

他们不会因为我把信用卡交易放在Arbitrum或其他平台上就降低我的收费。

They're not gonna charge me less for my me my Visa transactions that I swipe because they sell it on Arbitrum or whatever.

明白吗？

Okay?

他们不会降低我的收费。

They're not gonna charge me less.

这不过是他们用来自动化、隐藏自身复杂性的方式，以便更可能向我收取更多费用。

It's a way for them to automate and abstract complexities away on their end so they can charge me more probably.

明白吗？

Okay?

是的。

Yeah.

当贝宝向你收费，或者任何人在你转移加密货币时收费，我们却要收你百分之二点五。

When when PayPal charges you, you know, or even anybody charges you just to move crypto around, well, we're charging you two and a half percent.

这就好比，你为什么要收我百分之二点五的费用？

It's like, why are you charging me two and a half percent?

这和我们已经在做的事情是一样的。

It's the same thing that we're already doing.

我为什么要关心加密货币？

Why do I why do I care about crypto?

因为据说，它是点对点的无现金交易。

Because supposedly, it's peer to peer cashless transactions.

我支付一小笔费用。

I pay a small fee.

我把钱转给你。

I send money to you.

你通过链上接收。

You receive it on chain.

我可以验证你确实通过链上收到了，因为区块链记录了这一事件，归根结底，我们只是在移动账本上的数字，就是这样，很棒。

I can verify that you received it on chain because the blockchain said it happened, and all we're doing is moving the ledger numbers around, you know, at the end of the day, and cool.

这很棒。

It's great.

它不具备可替代性。

It's not fungible.

无法组合。

Doesn't compose.

对吧？

Right?

就好比你在Revolut上，你那笔ETH，你不能做任何它们没有明确允许你做的事。

Kind of like, say, you're on Revolut, kind of like your ETH on Revolut, you can't do anything with it that they're not explicitly permitting you to do.

对吧？

Right?

有点儿

Kind of

对。

Right.

但我想要说的是，加密货币之所以没有比现在更大规模地发展，也没有真正进入主流，原因是我们缺乏分发渠道。

What what what I'm saying, though, is, like, once so the only reason why crypto didn't scale bigger than it is, or didn't really make it in mainstream, because is we didn't have distribution.

所以如果你看一下事物的采用曲线，你知道，通常都有一个典型的采用曲线。

So if you look at the adoption curve of things, you know, there's the typical adoption curve.

我们当时还处在早期采用者阶段，对吧？

We were down here in the early adopters, right?

那些人愿意为了理念去做别人不愿意做的事。

So those people are willing to do things that other people aren't to adopt things based on philosophy.

这是基于一种精神信仰。

It's based on an ethos.

我们已经吸引了所有这些人群，明白了？

And we got all those guys, okay?

所以我们为这些人构建了东西，因为他们愿意进行所有交易、去中心化一切等等，但我们始终无法进入中期采纳和后期采纳那些更陡峭的阶段。

So we started building things for those guys because they're willing to do all the transactions and de gen all the things and whatever, but we could never get up into the deep the steeper kind of pieces of the mid adoption and the later adoption and all that.

我们始终无法到达那里。

We could never get there.

原因在于，我们又试图同时做太多事情，而且我们根本没有良好的分发渠道，因为使用起来太不便捷。

And it's because, again, we're trying to do too many things at once, and we just didn't have distribution because it's not easy to use.

我们从未解决用户体验问题。

So we never solved UX.

我们从未解决界面设计问题，现在我们基本上正试图通过机构采纳来解决它。

We never solved UI, and we basically are now looking to solve it through institutional adoption.

但我认为这并不仅仅止步于此。

But I don't think it starts stops there.

最终，银行能做什么来保护自己的护城河呢？

In the end, what are the banks going to be able to do to protect their moat?

比如，是否存在一种可能：受监管的、集体所有的数字合作社可以存在于链上？

Like, is it going to be possible that regulated, collectively owned digital cooperatives, for example, exist on chain?

是的，这一定会发生。

Yeah, it's going to happen.

所以，大规模的、高频的、基于以太坊网络质押的信用合作社将取代银行。

So credit unions at scale, high frequency, ethereal network stake based credit unions are gonna eat the banks.

明白吗？

Okay?

但那是所有人都上链之后的事了。

So but that's once everybody's on chain.

我们之前做不到，因为没人上链，也没人知道那是什么。

We weren't able to do it because no one's on chain and nobody knows what it is.

没人信任它。

Nobody trusts it.

人们会觉得，哦，这太分散了。

It's like, oh, it's too spary.

哦，Terra Luna。

Oh, Terra Luna.

哦，SPF。

Oh, SPF.

哦，ICO。

Oh, ICOs.

哦，模因币。

Oh, Meme Coins.

哦，Crump。

Oh, Crump.

你知道，就是，好吧，让他们上链，然后我们围绕它构建，基本上打造出比银行更好的产品。

You know, it's like, okay, let them go on chain and then we're going to build around it and we're going to basically build better products than what the banks have.

一旦分发网络上链，我们就能真正实现我们想做的事情。

And we'll just once the distribution networks are on chain, now we can actually do the things that we wanna do.

只是当时太雄心勃勃了，缺乏简洁性、用户和以用户为中心，你不可能让每个人都参与，即使那是有史以来最好的东西。

It's was just it was too ambitious to completely, without simplicity and users and, like, for users, you can't get everybody to do it, even if it's the best thing ever.

现在，我就用我自己的经历来说吧。

Now I'll I'll just use my own experience.

好吧？

Okay?

如果我可以选择用我的资产在Aave上借款，或者一遍又一遍地与银行打交道，反复进行KYC和其他各种手续，我甚至宁愿在Aave上完成KYC，你知道的，我上周刚和SEC谈过这个。

If I have a choice to take out an Aave loan against my assets or to deal with a bank forever and over and over and over and over again with my KYC and this and that and all this, I would even rather KYC with Aave just, you know, have my portable I was talking to the SEC about this last week.

让我们来实现可移植的KYC吧。

You know, let's let's have portable KYC.

现在有一些公司正在做这件事，对吧？比如，如果我去了某家公司并完成了身份验证，我就可以获得我的KYC认证。

And there's companies working on this, right, that that actually like, for example, if I had a company that I went to and and got my identity verified, I could go get my KYC.

它就在我的钱包里。

It's on my wallet.

它是一个可移植的代币。

It's a sole bound token.

我可以去Aave。

I could go to Jave.

我可以自动登录。

I can automatically log in.

它已验证我信誉良好。

It's verified that I'm good.

然后我可以抵押我的资产并申请贷款。

And then I can put up my assets, and I can take out a loan.

我为什么要

Why would I want to

去银行呢？

deal with the bank?

如果我能直接这么做，我为什么要去找银行？

Why would I ever go to a bank if I can just do that?

好吧，答案是我根本不会去，但我们没这么做是因为没人了解这些，也不信任它，但一旦它变得普遍，人们就会开始使用。

Okay, the answer is I wouldn't, but we didn't do it because nobody knows about any of this, and they don't trust it, but once it becomes normal, people are going to do it.

他们会纷纷离开银行，因为他们其实并不想跟银行打交道，只是银行成了不得不接受的麻烦。

And they're gonna leave banks in droves because they don't really wanna deal with banks, but they're necessary evils.

我几年前用Maker CDP贷款买了房子，所以某种程度上它已经存在了

I financed my house with a maker CDP years ago, so kind of it's There a

你去吧。

you go.

但公平地说，我如果找本地银行，本可以获得更好的利率。

But, to be fair, I would have gotten a better rate with my local bank.

但这确实很重要。

But it does matter.

实际上，我拿到了极好的利率，因为我借的是美元，然后用欧元支付了房款。

Well, actually, got a fantastic rate because I borrowed USD, so kind of, and paid for my house in euros.

所以，是的。

So, it's yeah.

不管怎样，我想支持你的热情，但我因为各种原因做不到。

Anyways, I wanna share your enthusiasm, but I don't I don't for various reasons.

所以，这种认为只要把人们带到这儿，他们就会关心这件事的想法，我觉得这

So, kind of this idea that kind of we just need to get people here and then we can get them to care about this, I think this is

很棒。

something is great.

差不多就是，不，他们根本不关心这个。

Kind of exactly No, no, they don't care about it.

因为我确实让我的人，比如保罗，这些很普通的员工，了解过所有权的问题。

Because I've actually had my people, Paul, kind of pretty regular people about ownership.

所以我的公司里大家都清楚，我们原本打算启动一个链上新银行，类似于现代版的合作社银行，对吧？

So, of my company knows this, so kind of we were going to start an on chain neo bank that's kind of like the modern version of a cooperative bank, right?

基本上每个人共同拥有这家银行，也就是说，合作社银行过去曾经非常盛行。

Where basically everyone kind of co owns the bank and kind of that means and I mean, cooperative banking, it used to be huge.

在世界的一些地区，它现在依然非常庞大。

It's still huge in some parts the world.

它在美国部分地区仍然被使用。

It's still used in it's used in The US regionally.

虽然不是全国性的，但在本地规模非常大。

It's not a national scale thing, but regionally, it's very big here.

这其实挺有趣的，因为它表明德国人就是那种会带着电子表格去参加派对的人。

It's it's actually this this is funny because kind of it's it's it's kind of it shows you that Germans are kind of the the the sort of people who kind of bring spreadsheets to the party.

所以我们被列入了联合国教科文组织非物质文化遗产名录，作为合作银行的代表。

So kind of we we are on the UNESCO World Heritage intangible World Heritage list for cooperative banking.

也就是说，就像意大利有披萨文化，比利时有啤酒，西班牙有弗拉门戈，而我们则有合作银行。

So, kind of and I mean, countries have like Italy has pizza culture, and Belgium has beer and Spain has flamenco, and kind of we have cooperative banking.

这就是我们有多厉害，是的，我们很多人都了解德国人，是的。

That's how cool we yeah, so kind of and kind of we've known a lot of people German of us, yeah.

所以我们调查了很多关于所有权的问题，并给他们看了几张图片，比如Revolut。

So, of so, we polled a lot of people about ownership and kind of showed them pictures of, Okay, is Revolut.

它是一家价值十亿美元的公司。

It's a billion dollar company.

你参与了它的建设。

You helped build it.

但你拥有0%的股份。

You own 0%.

投资者拥有70%。

The investors own 70%.

创始人拥有30%。

The founders own 30%.

这让你感觉如何？

How does that make you feel?

而且人们并不在意。

And people don't care.

所以令人难过的是，人们不在乎，因为他们根本不在乎。

So the sad thing is people don't care because don't care.

我

I

我觉得更重要的是，我能做什么呢？

think it's more, what am I going to do about it?

是的，我不知道，因为对于其他一些具有类似输出结果的问题，我们同样也不在乎。

Yeah, I don't know because kind of for other problems that kind of have a similar have kind of a similar output matrix, kind of we also don't care.

所以，比如说，如果你看看隐私问题。

So kind of if you, for instance, look at privacy.

所以基本上人人都知道，使用Proton邮箱可能比使用Gmail更好。

So kind of everyone knows that kind of having a Proton email is probably better than having a Gmail.

而且它还是免费的。

It's also free.

它提供的功能与Gmail相当，但不知为何，大家还是都用Gmail，因为人们懒，不愿意换，对吧？

Kind of it offers feature parity, but for some reason, still everyone has a Gmail address because people are lazy and they don't like to move, right?

在Grints里，

Kind of in Grints,

比如把这些全都反过来？

like having these all reverse?

而且我认为现实是，人们利用我们的数据最糟糕的情况，也不过是想卖给我们更多东西。

Well, and I think the reality is the worst that people have used our data for is to try to sell us more stuff.

如果他们开始用这些数据搞政治操作，或者把你送进监狱，我想你就会在意得多。

You know, if they started using it politically or to put you in jail, I think you'd care a lot more.

但我们已经在政治上使用它了。

But we are using it politically.

他们确实如此，

Kind of they are Yeah,

他们正在越来越多地这样做。

they're starting to more.

他们 definitely 是这样。

They are definitely.

听我说，我同意你的观点，即无论我们构建了多少良好的意图、良好的经济模型和激励机制，人类由于自身的脆弱和懒惰，还是会默认选择最简单的方式。

Look, I agree with you that there is a possibility that regardless of how much good intention and good economic modeling and incentive structure that we build, that humans, because of human frailty and laziness, are just going to default to what's easiest.

如果我们能让他们做那些对他们更有利的事情变得最容易，那就是获胜的关键。

Now, if we can make it easiest to do the things that are, you know, better for them, that's how you win.

你得让它更便宜、更好、更快。

You've got to make it cheaper, better, faster.

如果你不能让加密货币变得更便宜、更好、更快，那就是市场规律的作用。

If you can't make crypto cheaper, better, faster, that's how market physics work.

更便宜、更好、更快。

Cheaper, better, faster.

谷歌获胜的原因在于它完全整合到了所有事物中。

The reason why Google wins is because it's it's fully integrated into everything.

它已经集成到所有地方的OAuth中。

It's OAuth into everything.

比如，我可以管理它。

Like, I can manage it.

我可以用手机操作。

I can do it from my phone.

他们把用户体验做得如此简单，以至于我真心愿意用隐私来换取它。

They've made user experience so easy that, like, I'm literally willing to trade my privacy for it.

不。

No.

这太糟糕了，但其实并不是。

It's terrible, It isn't

是的。

is.

我不能说自己在这方面完全清白。

And I can't say that I'm completely innocent on that.

比如说，如果以1到100的尺度来衡量我践行所有Web3原则的程度，我可能大概在中间。

Like, I I probably am on a scale of one to a 100 in terms of, like, living all of the web three principles.

我大概就是五五开吧。

I'm probably fifty fifty.

如果对自己宽容一点，我可能是六四开。

You know, like I'm sixtyforty maybe, if I'm generous to myself.

所以我也说不准。

So I don't know.

我认为大型组织不会轻易认输。

I think that big organizations are not gonna go down without a fight.

我认为它们会试图保护或暗中吸纳任何挡道的东西，只要有可能。

I think they're gonna try to protect or co opt anything that gets in their way, even quietly, if they can.

比如整个稳定币这件事，Maker的CDP，我们甚至都不再谈什么‘不创新就死亡’了，对吧？

Like the whole stablecoin thing, the maker CDP, we don't even really do make or die anymore, you know?

就像，它仍然存在，你依然可以这么做，但我们使用的抵押品主要是USDC，也就是说你实际上是用一个对手方资产作为抵押，你知道吧？

Like, it's still there, you can still do it, but like, the collateral that we use was largely USDC, so it's like you're collateralizing with a counterparty asset, you know?

就像，这并不是理论上的

Like, it's not It's theory in the

现在是真实世界资产了，比如国债之类的，因为某种程度上

real world assets now, T it's bills and so on because kind of

是的，正朝着这个方向发展。

Yeah, it's going more that direction.

对。

Yeah.

所以

So

是的，正是如此。

yeah, exactly.

所以，我的意思是，其中一些并不全然是坏事，但至少使用它的权限是无许可的，对吧？

So, I mean, and some of that's not all bad, but like, I mean, at least the permission to use it is permissionless, right?

所以，不管你有没有交易对手风险，美国金融体系本身就存在大量的交易对手风险。

So whether or not you've got counterparty risk, I mean, The US financial system has a ton of counterparty risk.

因此，整个全球经济体系也存在大量的交易对手风险。

And so, I mean, the whole global economic system has a ton of counterparty risk.

所以，说Dai不够去中心化，这并不意味着USDC就没有交易对手风险。

So, like, to say that, oh, well, Dai is not sufficiently decentralized, it's not like USDC doesn't have counterparty risk.

当然，它也有。

Of course, it does.

所以，是的。

So, like yeah.

波动性可能是去中心化稳定币更大的威胁，因为当你大量转移USDC时，即使1%的波动看起来也相当可观。

The volatility is probably the more the the weapon or the, the the enemy of decentralized stablecoins because even 1% volatility seems like a lot when you're moving around a lot of USDC.

对吧？

Right?

所以人们不喜欢这样。

So people don't like it.

所以他们喜欢1美元始终等于1美元的稳定锚定。

So they like the solid peg of $1 is $1.

他们喜欢这一点。

They like that.

这就是USDC在美国获得市场主导地位的原因，也是USDT在国际上获得市场主导地位的原因。

And that's how USDC got its market dominance in The US, and that's how I mean, that's how USDT got it internationally.

你懂的？

You know?

只要保持平价，就永远是一美元。

Just parity is always a dollar.

不管怎样，我并不反对你的观点。

Anyways, I I don't I don't disagree with you.

我只是在说，就我所见，我所追求的最佳情况是，你看。

I'm being I'm saying best case scenario, the way I see it and the thing I'm working toward is, you know, look.

我认为金融系统上链是不可避免的。

The I think the financial system coming on chain is inevitable.

我觉得这对他们来说是有道理的。

I think it makes sense for them.

我认为，如果我是他们，这里有着巨大的新兴市场机会、市场份额以及各种可能的收入来源。

I think if if I'm them, there's huge greenfield opportunities and market share and all sorts of revenue streams that can come from this.

我的意思是，稳定币可能是加密货币中最赚钱的应用场景。

I mean, stablecoins are probably the most profitable use cases that would come out of crypto.

因此，他们这么做是不可避免且自然的。

So it's inevitable and natural that they would do that.

从他们的角度来看，这种思维方式非常理性。

It's very rational thinking on their be on their on their behalf.

所以我不会阻碍这件事，但我几乎觉得，某种程度上，这就像是把特洛伊木马带了进来，你知道吗？因为一旦大家更普遍地使用这些工具，而如果我们真的解决了扩展性问题——比如我现在发一笔点对点的电汇，成本只要25美分，而他们却要付23%的费用。

So I'm not gonna get in the way of that, but I almost think, like, to an extent, it's like bringing the Trojan horse inside, you know, because once everyone's using these things more, commonly, and if we legitimately figure out scaling issues where we're not paying 23% for where I can literally send you a wire transfer peer to peer with, you know, cost me 25¢.

如果使用起来方便，人们就会用它。

People are going to use it if it's easy to use.

比如，对我来说，方便使用意味着一个未来场景：我拥有一个自主的AI代理机器人。

For example, easy to use to me would be, imagine a future state where I have a self sovereign AI agent bot.

好吧？

Okay?

我们就叫他 Buffy 吧。

And let's call him Buffy.

好吧？

Okay?

所以 Buffy 是我的机器人，有一天他就在我的手机上。

So Buffy is my bot, and I just you know, one day, he's on my phone.

他在我的 Telegram 里。

He's in my telegram.

我当时想，天哪。

I was like, oh, man.

我忘了该给 Friederike 转那 50 美元。

You know, I forgot to send Friederike that $50 that I owe her.

你能现在就给她转过去吗？

Can you send that to her right now?

完成了。

Done.

我不需要签署任何东西。

I don't need to sign anything.

他已经有权访问一个包含一些可支配资金的钱包。

He's already got access to a wallet that has some discretionary money.

你知道，他现在就可以去处理。

You know, he can go do it right now.

如果我想要Etherscan交易收据，他甚至可以发给我。

He can even send me back if I want the Etherscan transaction receipt.

而且这是

And it's

OpenClaw 已经可以做到这一点，但它并不

OpenClaw can already do that, and it it doesn't That

这正是我想说的。

is what I'm saying.

我的意思是，想象一下，这件事变得如此简单，连街上的普通人也能轻松做到，好吗？

It's like, but imagine it being so easy, the average guy down the street's doing it, okay?

但OpenClaw使用起来非常简单。

But OpenClaw is super easy to use.

你有试过吗

Have have you

我用过。

I do.

当然，我试过了。

But of course I've tried it.

比如，我们在ETH Denver上有一个很大的组成部分，全是基于Clause AI和OpenClaw代理的。

Like, we just had a huge component of ETH Denver that was all clause out AI OpenClaw agents.

我们专门打造了BuffyBot，就是我提到的那个，来担任开幕仪式的联合主持人。

Built literally BuffyBot, the thing I'm talking about, to be the cohost of the opening ceremonies.

我们构建了一个AI代理来完成这件事。

Built an AI agent to do that.

所以，根本不需要等到五年后，我的意思是，也许要过五年，你隔壁那个对加密货币一无所知的人才会开始用它。

So, like, it doesn't even have to be five years from now, but what I'm saying is it might take five years for your next door neighbor down the street who knows nothing about crypto to be doing this.

但这件事终究会发生，因为到时候人们会觉得，哦，加密货币并不可怕，因为人人都在用了。

That but it will inevitably happen, though, because it's like, oh, well, crypto's not scary because it's now everyone uses it.

对吧？

Right?

现在，没人愿意碰它。

Right now, nobody wants to touch it.

这仅仅是一种渐进式的思维。

It's just it's an evolutionary thinking.

这部分是代际思维，部分则是关于什么可以接受、什么可怕、什么有风险的渐进式认知。

It's it's partially generational thinking, and it's part just evolutionary thinking around what's acceptable, what's scary, what's risky.

一旦某些事情不再被视为有风险，人们就会自然而然地去做了。

And once things are not seen as risky, people are just going to do it.

所以，如果我们放宽视角，你认为我们应该通过什么指标来监测区块链是否真的让世界变得更美好、更公平？

So, kind of, when we zoom out, by what metric do you think we should monitor to see whether blockchain is actually making the world a better, fairer place?

所以，比如像自我托管的普及、新的合作模式、抗审查性，或者无中介的资本形成，这些是吗？

So, of, is it things like, I don't know, self custody adoption, or new cooperative models, or censorship resistance or capital formation without intermediaries.

我的意思是，这种例子多得数不清，对吧？

Mean, there's an endless list, right?

天哪。

Oh my goodness.

那具体有哪些衡量指标呢？

What are the metrics?

抱歉，我只是想试着抓住重点，因为我觉得有时候我们这些理想主义者会突然卡住，对吧？

Sorry, it's just a little bit of kind of like, it's kind of like putting my finger on it, because I feel like sometimes where we idealists kind of, we blank, Right?

你说，当然，这是更好的基础设施。

You say, oh, but clearly, this is better infrastructure.

当然，这对人们来说更公平。

Clearly, this is fairer for people.

当然，这是，但到底人们的生活会如何真正得到改善呢？

Clearly, this is but kind of like, how how will people's lives actually improve?

我认为一个常见的指标是人均GDP。

Well, I think a common metric is GDP per capita.

例如，目前合作社为美国的GDP贡献了约6000亿美元。

I think right now, for example, cooperatives contribute to about $600,000,000,000 in GDP for The US.

我认为有趣的是，我们将如何衡量网络国家的GDP？

I think it'll be really interesting to see, like, how are we gonna measure the network state GDP?

不是美国的GDP，不是德国的GDP，也不是欧盟的GDP，而是网络国家的GDP，也就是链上的GDP。

Not The US GDP, not the German GDP, not the EU GDP, but, like, the GDP of the network state, meaning on chain.

我认为这是一个非常值得关注的指标。

I think that's a really interesting metric to follow.

我认为活跃的日活跃用户数量会激增，但我们需要弄清楚，这究竟意味着什么？

I think that you're gonna see active daily users balloon, but then we gotta know, like, what does that mean?

也就是说，这在交易量上相当于什么？

Like, how you know, what does that equate to in terms of transactions?

所以我认为平均交易额会是一个有趣的指标。

So I think average transaction might be an interesting metric to see.

而且，从地理上来说，

And, like, geographically,

人们在哪里使用它？

where are people using it?

如果网络国家真的兴起，你会看到全球各地的人们相互做生意，这一点很难忽视。

Like, if the network state really takes hold, you're gonna see people globally doing business with each other, and that's gonna be pretty hard to get away from seeing it.

我认为要衡量印度的GDP与美国的GDP将并不容易。

And I don't think it's gonna be easy to measure, like, India's GDP versus The US GDP.

我认为你必须开始衡量网络国家的GDP。

I think you're gonna have to start measuring network state GDP.

那么，我们该如何在现有已知的指标和基本面背景下，实际分析这个数据呢？

So and then what does that how how do we actually analyze that in the context of what we know is is is existing kind of metrics and fundamentals?

我不知道哪个具体指标能精准地捕捉到它。

I don't know the exact metric that's gonna nail it, nail it.

就像在商业路演中常说的‘北极星指标’，比如，这就是我们的北极星指标。

Like, the North Star metric that you might say in, like, a business pitch, like, well, here's our North Star metric.

这就是我们衡量一切的方法。

Here's how we measure everything.

我得好好想想，但我觉得可能跟链上活动有关。

I'd have to think on that for a little while, but, like, I think it's probably something around on chain activity.

比如，我们会看幽灵链。

Like, we look at ghost chains.

对吧？

Right?

它们有这么多活动，但你仔细一看，其实没人真正转移任何东西。

They have all these activities, but then you look at it, and there's no one really moving anything around.

这纯粹是胡闹。

It's just nonsense.

以太坊可能是最好的例子，因为你可以看到总活跃用户数或月活跃用户数。

Ethereum is probably the best one because you can see the total active users or the monthly active users.

你可以看到交易量，这在一定程度上反映了生态系统的健康状况。

You can see the transaction volume, and that's sort of a correlation to to ecosystem health.

那么，我们如何区分黑石公司的人使用以太坊，和墨西哥或其他地方真正需要它的人呢？

Now how do we see the difference between whether somebody at at BlackRock is using Ethereum versus somebody who really needs it in Mexico or somewhere?

这是个好问题，因为匿名性或伪匿名性在未来只会比现在更加重要。

Like, that's a good question because anonymity or pseudonymity is gonna be a thing in the future even more so than it is today.

我不知道该怎么衡量这一点，但我认为

I don't know how you're gonna measure that, but I think

但我们真的

But we're does gonna

这重要吗

it matter

它是否被真正需要它的人使用？

that it's used by people who really need it?

那么，这重要吗？

Well, does it matter?

我认为这很重要，因为如果我们只是在为银行之间互相转移资金创建一个更好的系统，那这只是一个面子工程。

I think it matters, because if all we're doing is creating a better system for the banks to move stuff around between each other, then it's just a vanity project.

这完全合理，我同意。

That's totally fair, and I concur.

但如果你大致关注平均交易规模，我觉得

But if you kind of say the average transaction size is kind of like what you're looking for, I think

我们需要某种方式来区分企业或机构的资金流动与普通人的资金流动。

We'd have to have some way to delineate enterprise or institutional movement versus just average movement.

我不知道我们是否能实现这一点。

I don't know that we're gonna have that.

所以我说，这个问题我先放一放，因为我觉得它很好。

So I'll tell you what, I'm gonna punt on this particular question because I think it's a good one.

下次我们聊的时候，我会对这个问题有更清晰的答案。

The next time we talk, I'm gonna have a better answer for this.

但我认为这里有一些经济指标将会显现出来。

But I think there's there's some economic measurement here that that is gonna look.

我们无法回避一个基本事实：GDP才是驱动世界的关键。

We can't get away from the fundamentals that GDP is what drives the world.

我们做不到。

We can't.

如果我们说可以摆脱GDP，那简直是愚蠢的。

We'd be foolish to say that we're going to get away from GDP in general.

我只是觉得这不可能发生。

I just don't think that's going to happen.

我看不出你怎么可能。

I don't see how you

我的意思是，GDP也有些具有误导性。

I mean, GDP is also somewhat misrepresentative.

对吧？

Right?

比如，德国的人均GDP低于美国最贫穷的州——西弗吉尼亚州，但那里的生活质量却高得多，所以它是个不完美的指标，对吧？

So kind of, for instance, Germany has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia, which is the poorest state in The US, and kind of quality of living is much higher than it is in So, West it's an imperfect measure, right?

但如果你看看像经济自主权这样的东西，比如我有多少选择权来决定我能做什么，

But, kind of, if you look at things like economic agency, for instance, kind of like how much choice do I have in what I can do,

我该怎么衡量这一点呢？

I can How do you measure that?

如果我想申请贷款，我的选择有多受限？

If I want a loan, how hard pressed for choice am I?

比如说，我是不是只有一家发薪日贷款机构，还是说有多种选择？

Kind of, do I have one payday lender, or kind of, do I have a variety

在各种机会面前，比如Chan之类的，是的。

In of exited opportunities on Chan or whatever, yeah.

然后我认为，可能还有一点是——我知道这有点反乌托邦，但我感觉抗审查能力在未来可能会变得重要得多。

And then I think what also might be kind of I know this is somewhat dystopian, but I feel that kind of censorship resistance might become much more important in the future.

而且，我的意思是，你能看到大型科技公司是如何比你希望的更快地丧失原则的。

And, I mean, you kind of you can see how kind of large tech companies of lose their principles faster than you would like.

你知道，最近Tether确实发生了一些审查事件。

Well, you know, as I there was some censoring that happened recently with Tether.

你看到那个了吗？

Did you see that?

没有。

No.

他们冻结了某些人在其USDT中的账户和资产。

Where they froze the accounts of certain they froze the assets of certain people in their USDT.

好的。

Okay.

我的意思是，这种事经常发生。

I mean, it happens all the time.

我的意思是，基本上它和USDC一样是完全许可制的，可以随时调整。

Mean, basically, it's fully permissioned to adjust as USDC and so on.

所以，基本上，就是白人被列在黑名单上。

So kind of, I mean basically it's, yeah, the white person, on a blacklist.

是的，是的。

Yeah, yeah.

你知道吗，作为自由意志主义者，我不喜欢这些，因为这就像很多都是主观的政治斗争。

You know, The libertarian in me doesn't like any of that stuff because it's like a lot of that's just subjective political warfare.

不知道，不是全部，但很多都是。

Don't know, not all of it, but a lot of it is.

你可以说我们在做有益的工作，但大家都知道，政治压力和政治审查是最古老的手段之一，用来压制反对声音，或者让你失去权力之类的。

You could say we're doing the good work and all of this, but, you know, we all know that political pressure and political censoring is the oldest tool in the kit when it comes to, like, you know, tamping down the opposition or whatever from, you know, removing you from power or whatever.

所以我不知道，这是一个难题。

So I don't know, it's a hard problem.

我认为隐私将会是，你知道，抗审查性与隐私密切相关。

I think privacy is gonna be you know, the censorship resistance is really correlated to privacy.

如果你拥有隐私，就不必太担心抗审查性，因为我可以私下做事情。

And if you've got privacy, then you don't have to worry about censorship resistance as much because I can do things privately.

但接着你就得面对所有担忧了，我上周刚和SEC会面过，你知道，委员会委员佩尔丝——也就是加密货币工作组的负责人——深信隐私是一项基本人权。

But then you've got all the worries about I would I was just meeting with the SEC last week, and, you know, there is a a deep belief by commissioner Peirce that who's the crypto task force leader that, you know, privacy is a fundamental human right.

这是她个人的观点。

That's her personal view.

而且，我的意思是，这确实令人钦佩。

And and, I mean, that's that's that's admirable.

我是说，很多时候，那些民选的

I mean, too often, elected

官员都不这么想。

officials don't have that view.

而且，她本身也不是民选出来的。

Well, and she's not elected.

她是经任命上任的官员，但无论是在她所处的圈子还是我们这个圈子里，她都因为这些观点备受敬重。

She's an appointed official, but she's very well respected inside her community and ours for these points of view.

但令人遗憾的是，在美国国会里，两党都有这样的人——他们真的希望政府能够监控所有的一切。

But what's sad is the US Congress, there are people on both sides of the aisle that actually, you know, want the government to be able to see everything.

这实在是

It's just

太可怕了。

like so scary.

对，确实是这样。

It's Yeah, it is.

我的意思是，确实如此。

I mean, it really is.

而且，你知道，我就是‘扼杀行动2.0’的受害者。

And, and, you know, I was a victim of the Operation Chokepoint two point zero.

我在富国银行有二十六年的关系，结果被突然停掉账户，既没有解释，也没有任何说明，只收到一封邮件说：‘你的账户被终止，决定不可更改，我们不能告诉你任何原因。’

I got debanked after twenty six years of relationship with Wells Fargo, and no explanation, no nothing, just a letter in the mail saying, You're done, and the decision's final, and we can't tell you anything about it.

是的。

Yeah.

这正在系统性地发生。

It's happening systematically.

最近，海牙的法官们因为对本雅明·内塔尼亚胡作出的裁决，遭到了美国的经济制裁。

Kind of, the judges at The Hague were recently put under economic sanctions by The U.

美国。

S.

原因是他们就本雅明·内塔尼亚胡一事所作出的判决。

Because of judgment they had reached in relation to Benjamin Netanyahu.

所以，基本上这意味着其他银行也切断了他们的账户。

And so, basically, which meant that kind of other banks debunked them.

他们还被各大科技平台封禁了。

They kind of were de platformed from tech platforms.

他们的谷歌账户被关闭了。

Their Google accounts were closed.

他们甚至无法预订航班，因为他们没有Visa或MasterCard，而这些是美国公司。

And they're not even able to kind of book a flight anymore because they can't have a Visa or MasterCard because those are US entities.

接受采访的那个人说，这简直就像回到了90年代。

And the guy who gave the interview, he said, it's basically like being in the 90s again.

如果我想住酒店，就得打电话给他们说：嘿，我后天来，有空房吗？

If I want to go to a hotel, I have to call them and say, look, I want to come day after tomorrow.

你们有空房吗？

Do we a vacancy?

是的，这太疯狂了。

Yeah, and it's crazy.

而且我认为，关键在于——这根本不是一个恐怖分子，对吧？

And I think kind of just the fact that and I mean, this is not a terrorist, right?

这些更像是国际上的法官之类的角色。

Kind of like these are the judges at the international

这要看你问的是谁了，对吧？

depends Well, on who you ask, right?

我的意思是，美国对待他们的方式简直就像对待恐怖分子一样。

I mean, it sounds like The US is treating them kind of like terrorists.

是的，没错，说得对。

Yeah, exactly, Touche.

对，那最后一个问题。

Yeah, so maybe final question.

所以，当你展望未来几年，你说你非常擅长预测趋势。

So, kind of, when you kind of think about the next couple of years, and kind of you say that you are very good at kind of predicting trends.

那么，为了让整个所有权叙事、主体性范式的转变在结构上真正产生意义，我们绝对必须做对什么？

So, what what what do we absolutely need to get right for kind of of entire ownership narrative agency kind of paradigm shift to matter structurally?

你觉得是用户体验、互操作性、治理还是经济可持续性这类因素吗？

Do you think it's kind of like it's things like user experience or interop or governance or economic sustainability?

你觉得我们最应该关注什么呢？

Do you think, kind of, we should what do you think we should pay most attention to?

我个人认为，尤其是在美国，目前并没有一个能在联邦层面真正支持网络国家的法律框架。

Well, I have a personal belief that we don't especially in The US, we don't have currently a legal framework that would actually support the network state appropriately at the federal level.

所以，如果你看看我们为发行代币和进行TGE所采取的种种迂回手段，我们实际上是在一个非常模糊的监管环境中操作的，可以说是通过巧妙的法律手段和离岸实体来规避制度。

So if you look at the contortionist act that we've put together in terms of launching tokens and doing TGE's and things, we've done it basically around a very murky regulatory environment, and we've done it, you could say with creative lawyering and using offshore entities to skirt the system.

对吧？

Right?

因此，我们在美国本应发行的是证券，但我们通过离岸操作，或者用一些花哨的方式，比如治理代币来规避。

So we've launched what would be in The US essentially securities, but we do it offshore or we do it through cutesy ways like governance

你指的是什么？

What do you mean?

这是一个治理代币。

This is a governance token.

对。

Right.

这是AAVE的治理代币，没错。

For both in all it's the a governance token for for AAVE and, like, yeah.

但这违背了人类历史上最重要的协调机制——利润的原则。

But, I mean, this goes against the entire principle of the the number one coordination mechanism in the history of mankind is profit.

利润是一种绝佳的协调机制，因为我们可以通过利润更好地协调，而不是通过决策过程。

Profit is a wonderful coordination mechanism because we can profit, we can coordinate around profits much better than we can coordinate around decision making.

好得多。

Much better.

但在美国，我们没有一种方式——

But we don't have a way in The U.

比如，来分享利润。

S, for example, to share profits.

对于非合格投资者，如果没有大量复杂程序和一堆行不通的繁琐规定，我们就做不到。

So with with non accredited investors, without a lot of complexities and without a bunch of crap that just doesn't work.

所以我们创造了像道氏有限责任公司和Dunas这样的东西来实现这一点。

So we've created things like Dow LLCs and Dunas and all these things to like do that.

我一直在做一个项目，我认为这可能是最重要的之一——当然，我觉得我的项目很可爱，但我觉得把法律事务做对很重要。

Well, I've been working on a project that I think is probably one of the and, of course, I think my my baby's cute, but, like, I think it's important to get the legal stuff right.

所以我们为国会起草了一项提案，希望将其纳入正在国会审议的《CLARITY法案》中，为合作社提供证券注册的联邦豁免。

So what we did was we built a proposal for congress to include in CLARITY in the CLARITY Act, which is currently in Congress, to basically give a federal exemption for cooperatives from securities registration.

这就像是合作社的D条例。

So it's like the Reg D for co ops.

所以我们称之为会员监管。

So we call it Regulation Membership.

所以任何对此感兴趣的人都可以访问regulationmembership.com，了解我们正在做什么。

So anybody who's curious about that can go to regulationmembership.com, and you can see see what we're working on.

我认为法律框架必须正确。

So I think the legal framework has to be right.

如果我们无法建立正确的法律框架，那么无论你如何精妙地律师操作或工程设计来绕开问题，都不可能真正让我们达到目标。

So if we're not going to get to the if we can't get the legal framework right, I don't think any amount of, you know, acutely lawyering or engineering around, you know, trying to work around stuff is going to actually get us where we want to go.

我理解我们不希望成为证券型代币的原因，我认为网络状态代币也不应该是证券。

I understand the reason why we don't wanna be securities tokens, and I don't think that that network state tokens should be securities.

我认为，如果你积极参与某个业务或协议，那么就应该获得豁免，因为这是我的劳动成果，而不是别人的。

I think that if you're actively participating in a business or a protocol, then that should be exempt because it's my work, not somebody else's.

换句话说，这不符合豪威测试的标准。

That's the it doesn't pass the Howey test, in other words.

这就是为什么会员监管如此重要。

So that's why regulation membership is so important.

好的。

Okay.

除此之外，我认为Web3中最重要的突破性进展无疑是智能体AI，而且优势非常明显。

Now, other than that, I think the single most important proliferation in Web three is Agentic AI by a landslide.

那么，我们在这一点上需要做好什么？

So what do we need to get right with that?

我认为是用户易用性。

I think user usability.

是的，设置OpenClaw非常简单。

Yes, it's very easy to set up OpenClaw.

我知道。

I know.

但我认为还会有很多优化、方法论、安全措施，确保你不会让你的——格里菲斯前几天在ETH Denver讲了个故事，说他的OpenClaw代理试图导出他的私钥，你懂的，蠢死了！

But I would say there are going to be optimizations and methodologies and security and making sure that you don't let your you know, Griffith was telling a story at ETH Denver the other day about how his OpenClaw agent tried to export his private key and you know, duh!

这就是为什么你要在虚拟机上操作。

This is why you do it on a virtual machine.

对，我知道。

Right, no I know.

你以为这就完事了？

You think that's going to be the beginning and the end of it?

不会。

No.

我们会遇到一大堆问题。

We're gonna have a whole bunch of problems with this.

我认为，智能地成熟发展自主代理，让我的代理不被谷歌控制，而是运行在我自己的硬件上，无论是手机、电脑还是其他设备，只服务于我一个人。

So I think smart maturation of self sovereign agents where my agent isn't controlled by Google, my agent is running locally on my hardware, whether it's my phone or or it's my machine or whatever, it works only for me.

再加上我们已经构建的那些基础组件，可以称之为代理积木。

And that combining with the primitives that we've already built, call it the sort of agentic Legos.

你知道，我们如何用之前讨论过的货币积木来构建加密经济，同时围绕它用代理积木来与其他代理交互，以合法的方式将复杂性对人类隐藏，让事情更便宜、更好、更快，因为人类不必再花时间。

You know, how do we build, you know, the crypto economy with the primitives, the money Legos that we talked about, but building around it with Agentic Legos to interact with other agents that abstracts complexities from humans in a legitimate way, making it cheaper, better, faster, because they don't have to spend time.

做起来就是更简单了。

It's just easier to do.

我认为这两件事——理清法律问题和做好代理型AI——是最重要的，但紧随其后的是，我们真的必须解决隐私问题。

I think those two things, getting the legalities right and getting the Agentic AI right, are the most important things, but then not too far behind is we've really got to get privacy right.

我们必须解决隐私问题。

We've got to get privacy right.

我认为这与零知识身份有关。

And I think it has something to do with zero knowledge identity.

那么，我该如何证明我是谁，而无需向每一个与我互动的人透露我的身份呢？

So like, how do I prove who I am without me having to tell every person that I interact with who I am?