基利安·科特谈如何将失败转化为成功、培养自律并改善生活

所以那种感觉是没有的。

So it didn't have that.

显然我还有余力。

So there's obviously stuff left in the tank.

但把这两段经历拿来比较挺有意思的，毕竟其中一个刚发生不久。

But it's it's it was just interesting to compare those two experiences since one was so much more recent.

而且说实话，莫阿布的风景平均来看比科科多纳的路线美多了。

And I also just man, Moab is on average much, much prettier than the Cocodona course.

我会一直这么认为，直到我去世。

I will I will continue to believe that till I die.

我记得你和我之前聊过，爬明格斯山那段路，或者不是。

I remember you and I, we were talking about that going up that douche grade on Mingus and or no.

是在弗拉格斯塔夫那段路，你说：天啊，这路也太坑了吧。

It was douche grade on in Flagstaff when you were like, dude, so much douche grade.

真是难以置信。

It's unbelievable.

整个赛道都特别难走，简直太离谱了。

Like, the whole chorus is douche grade, which is just so, so crazy.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

是啊。

Yeah.

确实如此。

It is yeah.

莫阿布这条赛道确实很美。

Moab is definitely a pretty race.

我很好奇，我记得莫阿布赛后那场采访，那是我见过最棒的一次，你刚跑完不久就接受了采访。

Would you say I'm curious because I remember the interview after Moab where you my favorite interview of all time, like, literally freshly finished.

你说那是你这辈子经历过最累的一件事。

And you said, like, that was the hardest physical thing I've ever done.

跑完科科多纳之后，你还会这么觉得吗？

Like, do you still believe that to be true after doing Cocodona?

不。

No.

绝对不是。

Absolutely not.

当然了。

For sure.

Definitely not.

Definitely not.

根本不是这样，说实话，你做墙式训练两分钟，然后并不会变轻松，反而时不时还要加三十秒，越练越难。

Not even it's like unfortunately, it's like the thing where, you know, you're doing wall sets for two minutes and then it doesn't actually get easier cause you start adding on, you know, thirty seconds every now and then.

做这些项目的时候，情况就是这样。

Like that's what happens as you get into these things.

所以我预计下一场赛事会比Cocodona更难，因为事情总是这样发展的。

So like I expect my next race to be even harder than Cocodona because it's just the way that it seems to go.

不过，Cocodona可能不会是最难的了，因为我不会再连续跛行六十英里了。

But no, Cocodona was maybe it won't be because I won't be dealing with a I won't be limping for 60 miles.

这正是它的特殊之处。

That's what made it specific.

那情况比泥巴还糟，根本看不到任何好转的希望。

It was like worse than mud because it was just so on like, was no hope of it getting better.

是的。

Yeah.

你知道，泥巴总归能蹚过去，之后还能继续跑。

Know, like, mud eventually, you're gonna make your way out of the mud, and it's it's it's like you can actually run again.

但那种跛着走的状态，简直像猫一样，怎么都摆脱不了。

But the like, the limping and that, it's just like it's just a cat.

那种持续不断的不适感，一直维持在很高的水平。

It stayed at a very high level of constant discomfort.

对。

Yeah.

天哪。

Oh my gosh.

而且你整个过程中都在追Rachel，但Moab那次不一样，我永远忘不了那个追踪图，一堆数字挤在一起，而你早就绕完一圈跑远了，简直太搞笑了。

And also, you are, like, chasing Rachel the entire time, whereas, like, Moab I mean, you were like, dude, I'll never forget the picture of the tracker where it was, like, cluster of numbers, and then, like, you're, like, already, like, way far ahead on the loop, which is just so funny.

是的。

Yeah.

那确实挺有意思的。

That was that was fun.

我说的是Moab和三冠王赛事那几场。

I mean, that was Moab and the Triple Crown races.

总的来说，我玩得更开心。

I definitely just had more fun in general.

对。

Mhmm.

可能Tahoe没那么开心，但Cocodona确实不错，因为比赛氛围没那么激烈。

Maybe not Tahoe than I but then I did at Cocodona just because it's like, it was a little less competitive.

我至今还是觉得Big Foot是我跑得最棒的一场比赛。

I still look back at Big Foot as, like, my best ever race.

我心里一点怀疑都没有。

There's, like, no doubt in my mind.

但那次比赛也很激烈，所以差别挺大的。

But that one also was competitive, so it made a difference.

不过说真的，跑Cocodona的时候和你一起，确实有好几次我玩得很开心。

But, yeah, like, it's like, Cocodona, you know, running with you, there was times I was having fun for sure.

但那是你第一次给我配速。

But, like, it it it the first time you paced me.

之后呢，我就觉得整个过程就跟上班一样，平平淡淡。

But after that, I was like it was just like workman like the whole time.

除了在核桃峡谷和我兄弟一起跑时，赶上日出或日落的那一刻，让我重新振作了一下，那画面真的很美，但那也不代表我就该转成享受模式了。

You know, there was no other than the moment where I kinda got revived by the sunset, the or the sunrise on running with my brother in Walnut Canyon, It's like other than that moment, which was beautiful, but it's not like I should transition to having fun.

我就想着，行吧。

I was just like, okay.

这感觉还不错。

This is cool.

但那时候我真的忍不住想，天啊。

But then I was just like, god.

我疼得实在受不了了。

This is I'm in so much pain.

好吧，继续吧。

It was like, alright.

回去干活。

Back to work.

没错。

Yep.

就是这样。

Exactly.

我的天啊。

Oh my gosh.

这太搞笑了。

That's so funny.

这太搞笑了。

That is so funny.

我现在挺好奇的，想从你的角度聊聊，尤其是现在这段时间的事。

Kinda in this I'm I'm curious from your standpoint and all this stuff now, kinda more talking about the present.

你正处于一个过渡期，这点很清楚。我之所以想谈这个，是因为不管是谁，只要受伤了，或者比赛表现不好，都会经历这些。

So, you know, you've been in this transition period, obviously, with with the things of how and the reason why I want to kinda talk about this is because whether someone's injured or comes off a bad race or whatever.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得，当你追求大目标的时候，总会遇到低谷。

I think when you're chasing big goals, like, there's gonna be dark moments.

总会有一些特别艰难的时刻。

There's gonna be low moments.

说实话，你是我认识的人里心理素质最强的。

And dude, you are the most mentally tough person I personally know.

这绝对是事实。

That is a damn fact.

既然明白了这一点，再加上我自己亲身经历了这些，我觉得或许该跟大家说说，因为上次你上节目时，大家应该已经听过你的故事了，但还是想请你再讲讲你现在的情况。

And so knowing that and I guess also just going through this experience, I guess maybe tell people because I think last time you were on the podcast, I'm sure people have listened to you, they know about.

你现在到底经历着什么？

But tell us about the experience you're in.

你是怎么在这样的情况下，还能保持希望的？

How have you been navigating that in a way where, you know, you can still, you know, maintain hope?

因为这些事真的特别特别难熬。

Because I think, like, these things can be really, really hard to go through.

是的。

Yeah.

在Cocodona比赛最后那60英里，我拖着伤腿慢慢走，结果把腓骨长肌腱撕裂了，就是脚踝外侧、脚底那两条肌腱中的一条。

So, basically, that last 60 miles of limping at Cocodona resulted in me tearing my peroneus longus tendon, which is one of two tendons that wraps around the outside of your ankle under your foot.

当时确实有个瞬间，我脚踝一扭， tendon 就断了。

And I did there was almost, like, a moment that I rolled my ankle and tore it.

但其实整个60英里里，它是一点一点被撕开的。

I slowly tore it over the course of the entire 60 miles.

你可以想象一下，每走一步，都像让那根绳子又多断几根纤维，简直太糟了。

So if you just imagine, like, it's it's horrible to imagine, like, each step just, like, breaking a little fraying of the rope even further.

你懂的。

You know?

这大概就是我脑子里的画面。

That's kinda what I picture in my head.

是的。

Yeah.

你之前跟我说你的肌腱被搞得像瑞士奶酪一样，我当时就想，这听起来可不妙。

You you talked to me saying you Swiss cheesed your tendon and I was like, oh, that sounds not good.

对。

Yeah.

说肌腱被搞得像瑞士奶酪，这说法还挺贴切的。

Swiss cheesed the tendon is another good phrase.

我在6月10日做了手术修复，之后整整十二天都不能负重，虽然挺无聊的，但好在还算好应付。

But I I had surgery to repair it on June 10 and after that I had twelve days of being totally non weight bearing, which were kind of boring but easy to navigate in a sense.

手术后几天，我就开始练75硬拉了，下定决心保持锻炼，保持自律。

A few days after surgery, I did start 75 hard, so I, like, committed to staying fit and, you know, staying disciplined.

如果你不知道这是什么，咱们可以查一下，你要是正在听的话。

You can we can look that up if you don't know what it is if you're listening.

不过呢。

But yeah.

我之前没意识到，这种小手术——他们就是这么跟你说的，对吧，小手术嘛。

I I mean, what I didn't realize about a minor surgery, because that's, like, how it's described to you, like, okay.

是的。

Yeah.

胫骨长肌腱修复，确实算个小手术。

Pronus longus tendon repair, it's a minor surgery.

但再小的手术也是人生大事，你懂的，我脑子里根本没把‘小手术’和‘可能是你这辈子最难熬的事’划上等号。

But a minor surgery is still a major life event, you know, and and it didn't really compute compute my brain as, like, minor surgery equals potentially one of the hardest things you've ever done in your life.

所以一开始我挺挣扎的，试着负重时特别费劲，光是把脚上的感觉转化成脑子里的认知，就特别烧脑。

So I I I had some struggles, like, trying to be weight bearing at first, just, like, really mentally difficult to kinda translate what's happening in my foot to my head.

更别说，我之前在播客里提过，只要不能跑步，我的自我认同就全乱了。

Top all of that off, it's like anytime I can't run, I have mentioned earlier in the podcast, like, my identity is too wrapped up in running.

这事儿真的没法否认。

Like, there's just, like, no way for that not to be true.

我也不知道该怎么解决，因为我试过写作，但当我不觉得自己是自己时，写作就特别难——而让我感觉像自己的，恰恰就是跑步。

And I don't know I don't know exactly what to do about it because it's like I I try to write, but I it's hard to write when I don't feel like myself and what makes me feel like myself is running.

所以你看，连那些看似次要的事，其实也都跟跑步挂钩，我生活中太多东西都依赖着跑步了。

And so it's like even the things that are like down it's like it's it seems like there's too many activities in my life and too many like parts of my life that are downstream from running.

我得重新调整一下这些事的优先级，你懂我的意思吧。

Like, I need to like I need to like rearrange the way that that's ordered if that makes sense.

不过，确实挺难熬的。

But, yeah, it's been tough.

至少我现在已经能不靠拐杖，单穿步行靴走路了，这已经是很大的进步了。

I mean, I'm back to walking around in a walking boot with no crutches, so that's a huge win.

我觉得，有希望这件事，就像跑一场超马一样。

And and I think, like, I mean, having hope, it's like it's just like doing an ultra.

就像你要是真的处在低谷，只要撑到下一个补给站就好了。

It's like if you if you're really in a dark moment, you get to the next aid station.

越野跑教会了我很多，怎么真正面对生活里的难事。我从不让自己去想象跑步会是什么样子。

Like, ultras teach you a lot about how to actually handle hard things in your life, And I do not let myself picture what running will be like.

对。

Like Mhmm.

有时候我冥想时，会不自觉地想到，要是此刻能跑在山间的草地上，该多好啊。

Sometimes when I'm meditating, I'll find myself like drifting to a thought about like how nice it would be to be running through a meadow in the mountains at this time of day, you know.

我想去感受那种感觉。

I I wanna like picture what that feels like.

但只要一发现自己在想这个，我就立刻掐断，因为这没用。

But I cut that shit off as soon as I notice I'm doing that because it's not helpful.

从现在的我回到那个状态，感觉太遥不可及了，现在去想这些反而徒增烦恼。

It's like, it feels so insurmountable to get from a to b from like me to that again that it's unhelpful at this point to picture it.

我知道总有一天我会重新适应的，就像越野赛到了最后一个补给站，你才能开始想象终点的样子。

You know, I'm sure at some point I'll be I'll be fine with it because it's like when you get to the last aid station of a race, you can start picturing it at finish.

如果你在跑Cocodona，到了37英里就开始想终点，那根本没用。

It's just not helpful if you're doing Cocodona and you start picturing it at mile 37.

你知道的，那天肯定不好过。

You know, it's gonna be a bad day.

所以，我对做手术也是这么想的。

But and so that's kinda how I feel about the surgery too.

就是一点一点的小进步。

It's just like little wins.

比如我今天去做了物理治疗，我的活动范围已经超出了之前设定的目标。

So getting a little bit stronger, you know, I went to my PT today and I'm ahead of my range of motion targets we had set.

就是这种小事吧。

So, you know, it's things like that.

而且对我来说，我一直在坚持做相当多的有氧运动。

And then I think for me, I've been still managing to do significant amounts of cardio.

我买了台滑雪机，只要能保持生活中的某种节奏，让身体分泌点内啡肽，我就觉得挺好。

I, like, bought a skier machine and, like, any way that you can maintain some level of routine in your life and, like, chemically, want some endorphins.

所以我觉得，这样确实能帮助身体保持化学平衡。

So I think, like, that that does help just kind of regulate yourself chemically.

而且，我觉得关键在于适当用点别的事情分散注意力，但到了晚上，你还是能觉得这一天过得不错，不一定要有多骄傲，但至少心里踏实。

And, yeah, it's it's it's a matter of, I think, engaging with distractions up to a point, but then also still getting to the end of the day feeling like you can be proud of or like, not not proud of, but you can be like happy with the day that you lived, you know.

我觉得，每天都能做点有成就感的事，真的特别有帮助。

So it's like having something productive to do most of days I think is really helpful.

在继续听节目之前，我得问你个重要问题。

Before we get back in the episode, I need to ask you an important question.

你正在训练一场超马，但内心其实不太确定自己练得对不对？

Are you training for an ultramarathon, but deep down you're not fully sure if you're training the right way?

也许你已经自己琢磨过办法。

Maybe you've tried figuring it out yourself.

也许你还试过用人工智能。

Maybe you've even tried using AI.

没错，AI能给你安排训练计划，但问题在于。

And yeah, AI can give you the workouts, but here's the thing.

它没法全面地指导一个人。

It can't coach the whole human.

它看不到你是否被生活压力压得喘不过气，什么时候该退一步，什么时候该冲刺，或者什么时候你需要身边有个真正的人支持你。

It can't see when life stress is crushing you, when you need to back off, you need to push or when you need a real person in your corner.

而且它也无法为你提供一个由其他越野跑者组成的社群，在你奔跑的路上给予你支持。

And also it can't give you a community of other ultramarathoners who are supporting you along the way.

所以我们打造了 Everyday Ultra 跑者团队，把教练指导和社群功能都整合进去了。

And that's why we built the Everyday Ultra racing team with our coaching and community platform built in there.

使用 Everyday Ultra 教练服务，你得到的不只是一个训练计划。

So you don't just get a training plan with Everyday Ultra Coaching.

你还能获得个性化的指导、比赛策略、监督机制，以及加入一个由四百多名越野跑者组成的私密 Discord 社群，他们正和你一样追逐着远大的目标。

You get personalized coaching, race strategy, accountability, and access to a private community of over 400 ultra runners inside Discord who are chasing big goals right alongside you.

你会被匹配一位一对一的资深教练，全程陪伴你，提供量身定制的建议，随时通过文字回答你的问题，每个月还会和你视频通话，确保你走在正确的轨道上。

So you get paired with a one on one expert coach who is going to be there with you every step of the way, giving you personalized insights, being there on text whenever you need questions, and meeting on you with calls every single month to make sure that you're on track.

你还能和其他越野跑者建立联系，分享经历，融入这个始终在你身边为你加油的社群。

And you also get to connect with other ultrarunners to share the experience and be supportive with the community who's cheering alongside you every step of the way.

我们见过不少运动员，从最初觉得100公里根本不可能，到一年内完成了两次100公里。

We've had athletes from going to thinking that 100 k was possible to completing two 100Ks in one year.

很多完全没有跑步经验的运动员，最终都顺利完成了人生第一次100英里赛跑，全程无伤，而且充满成就感。

We've had many athletes with no prior running experience finish their first 100 miler strong, injury free and fulfilled in the process.

当你不再瞎猜，开始得到真正支持的时候，变化就会发生。

And that's what happens when you stop guessing and start being supported.

如果你厌倦了孤军奋战，总在怀疑自己训练方法对不对，想成为最强壮、最有信心的越野跑者，现在就去 everydayultracoaching.com 了解我们的个性化教练服务吧。

So if you're tired of doing this alone, tired of wondering if you're doing training the right way, you want to become the strongest, most confident ultra runner you can be, you can apply for Everyday Ultra Coaching today by going to everydayultracoaching.com and looking at our one on one coaching options.

你猜怎么着？

And guess what?

你可以免费预约一次教练咨询通话。

You can hop on a free consult call with one of our coaches.

完全没压力。

No pressure.

我们不会硬推你买任何东西。

We won't hard sell you.

我们只是想看看这个项目是不是适合你。

We just want to see if it's a good fit for you.

如果合适的话，我们非常欢迎你加入团队，和我以及我们的 Everyday Ultra 教练一起训练。

And if it is, we'd love to have you on the team to work with myself and our Everyday Ultra coaches.

去 everydayultracoaching.com，点击咨询预约链接，安排一次免费咨询，我们很想帮你实现你的超马目标。

So go to everydayultracoaching.com and use the consult call link to schedule a consult call with one our coaches, and we'd love to work with you to help you crush your ultramarathon dreams.

大家好。

Hey, everybody.

咱们说点实在的。

Let's be real.

超马里肌肉酸痛真的挺烦人的。

Sore muscles suck in an ultramarathon.

跑长距离时，肌肉酸痛在所难免，但它会拖慢你的表现，让你没法发挥出全部实力。

And when we're running long distances, we're gonna get sore muscles, but it prevents us from running as strong as we possibly can.

训练时，酸痛会让你没法及时恢复，重新投入高强度训练，最终影响你达到最佳状态。

In training, it prevents us from getting back to the workouts as strong as we can, and ultimately we don't hit our fullest potentials when our muscles are sore.

当然，越野跑里肌肉酸痛是免不了的，这本来就是这项运动的一部分，但除了科学训练，你还可以做一些事来减轻这种酸痛。

Now granted, you're going to have sore muscles in an ultra, that's the name of the game, but you want to do things that are going to help to prevent it on top of good training.

我用过一个挺管用的东西，叫 PlayOn 止痛喷雾，能帮我在酸痛前预防，也能在酸痛后缓解。

A tool that I've used that has helped me to prevent it and treat it is PlayOn Pain Relief.

这是个天然成分的外用喷雾，一喷上去，几秒钟内就能直接作用在肌肉和关节，快速消炎止痛。

It is a topical pain relief spray that you spray on automatically with all natural ingredients and it goes to work reducing inflammation in a matter of seconds directly at the source at the muscle and the joints.

跟 Icy Hot 或 Biofreeze 只是让皮肤发凉不一样，这东西是真的有效。

Unlike Icy Hot or Biofreeze that just cool the skin, this stuff actually works.

过去三年我跑每一场越野赛都用它，帮我在腿都快废了的时候还能跑出个人最好成绩，训练时也能顶着大负荷继续加量，一点没耽误进步。

I use it in all my ultras over the past three years and it has helped me to get my PR, helped me to run strong even when my legs feel beat up, and ultimately in training has allowed me to keep training and keep progressing my volume even during high workloads.

如果你想试试，去 playonrelief.com，用优惠码 EVERYDAYULTRA，下单立减 20 块。

So if you want to give Plan a try, you can use the code EVERYDAYULTRA to get 20 off your order when you go to playonrelief.com.

就是 playonrelief.com，输入 EVERYDAYULTRA 这个码，订单享 20% 折扣。

That's playonrelief.com with code EVERYDAYULTRA for 20% off your order.

不妨试试，继续跑下去。

Give it a try and play on.

另外，如果你在找舒适、耐穿、还不容易磨破的跑步服装，我推荐Janji。

Also, if you're looking for running apparel that is going to be comfortable, last you a long time, and not lead to chafing, I suggest using Janji.

过去三年里，我一直只穿Janji，它让我在每场比赛中都不磨皮、炎热天气下也凉爽，整体穿着特别舒服。

Janji has been my exclusive apparel that I've been using over the past three years, and it has helped me in every race to not chafe, to feel cool in the hot months, and ultimately be comfortable.

我最钟意的是Run All Day Tea系列，夏天穿特别凉快，质感也特别柔软；还有那款两合一多功能短裤，从没让我磨破过——磨皮真的太烦人了，一定要避开。

My favorite items are the Run All Day Tea, which keeps me nice and cool in the summer months and also just feels very, very comfortable, and the two in-one Multi Short, which has never chafed me, which chafing sucks, so you don't want that.

所以我特别喜欢它，因为内层有压缩设计，完全不会磨皮。

So that's why I love it because it has a compression liner that doesn't chafe.

如果你想买这些，还有我其他推荐的装备，可以去janji.com/everydayultra看看我的最爱，升级你的越野跑装备。

So if you want to shop those and all my other favorite options, you can go to janji.com/everydayultra to check out my favorites and get your trail running apparel upgraded.

网址是janji.com/everydayultra。

That's janji.com/everydayultra.

去挑我的推荐款，让你的越野跑装备达到新高度。

Shop my favorites and get your best trail running gear yet.

对的。

Yeah.

话说回来，你提到的那个下一阶段的代理计划，其实我早在录之前就搞定了，我就想，你什么时候能重新跑起来啊？

And, dude, you know, you mentioning about, like, the next stage agent thing I had put in together even before we hit record here, I was like, dude, like, what's the ETA for you to get back running?

你立马就说，兄弟，我根本没想过这事儿。

And you immediately were like, bro, I don't even think about that.

你是说，比如在比赛里，你根本不会去想第二十五英里的事儿？

And is that is that that meant like, you're just you like, you don't even like, it's just like in a race probably where you're not even thinking about mile two fifty.

你脑子里只想着当下该做什么，对吧？

Like, you're just thinking about, like, what you need to do in the now.

是这样吗？

Is that correct?

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Exactly.

对我而言，一个简单的方法就是从物理治疗到下一个物理治疗预约，这样来回衔接。

And and one easy thing for me is going from PT to a PT appointment to PT appointment.

你知道吗，我的理疗师已经跟我合作好几年了，我们彼此特别熟。

You know, I my my PT has been working with me for years now, so we know each other really well.

而且

And

她简直就是跑步方面的天才，每次见到她，我们都会一起看看目前的情况怎么样。

she's, I think, a running genius essentially, but we it's like I see her and then, you know, we assess how things are going.

然后过一周再见面，继续这样跟进。

And then I see her in a week and we keep doing that.

所以就像有这些简单的节点，一直保持着联系。

So it's just like there's easy touchstones like that.

有时候呢，老兄，像我这样平时情绪一直挺稳定的，如果用一到十分来衡量每天的满足感，大概能给个七分。

And then sometimes, dude, you have, like, it's it but as someone who's normally very, like, emotionally even keeled and I think, you know, rated on a one out of 10 scale of, like, contentedness day by day, probably, like, a seven.

我这个人其实挺开心的。

Like, I'm I'm I'm pretty I'm a pretty happy person.

但你要明白，人生总会有那么一段时期，你会突然每天醒来都觉得状态只有三四分。

Like, there's, you know, it's it's hard to deal with the fact that you're gonna go through a stage of life where you're gonna wake up as a three or a four for a while.

而且你知道，保持日常规律很重要。比如我早上起来，可能有点脾气不好、烦躁之类的。

And, you know, staying in routine, you know, it's like, I wake up, I might be kinda grumpy, irritated, whatever.

但我去锻炼一下，做个一小时有氧，有时候两小时，之后感觉心情就能回升到五或六分。

It's like I go work out, I get an hour of cardio and sometimes two, and then I feel like maybe I feel like a five or six.

这样就好多了。

It's like, okay.

所以情况确实有改善。

So I've improved things.

所以我觉得，即便在可以偷懒、对自己宽容一点的时候，也要试着保持一定的自律，这中间确实有个平衡点需要把握。

And so I think just like trying to hold yourself to some kind of rigorousness even when it makes sense to be lazy and kinder to yourself, it's like there's there's a balance there to be had.

我也在努力让自己达到这种状态。

And, you know, I'm trying to reach that for myself.

对。

Mhmm.

确实如此。

For sure.

最近你在Substack上发的一篇文章，标题还是叫‘导航问题’，对吧？

And even just on a recent Substack post, you you, like, titled it navigation problems.

没错。

Right?

你提到这个标题，其实挺贴切的。

Like, which Yeah.

跟我们说说这个吧。

Talk to us about that.

我觉得你那篇文章之所以特别，就在于你直接点出了这个问题——人生中，每个人迟早都会遇到导航困境，关键是怎么应对。

And the reason why I think it's that that post was like, just just even just you just going out and saying that is, I think every single person in life at some point will probably face a navigation problem, but I think it's about how you handle it.

有些人处理得并不好。

And I think some people don't handle it well.

但你处理得特别棒，真的很出色。

I think you handled it, like, excellently, right, which is awesome.

能分享一下你的经历吗？如果有人正面临这样的困境，你有什么建议能帮他们重新调整方向，找回节奏？

So can you talk through your experience there and, like, maybe if someone is hitting a navigation problem, like, what your advice would be, like, for them to kinda recalibrate and get back on track?

是的。

Yeah.

不过我要先说明一点，我甚至都不确定我给的建议对每个人都适用。

I don't this is all with a caveat that I don't I'm not even totally convinced that, like, any advice that I might have could work for everyone.

就像你说的，跑超马的时候，你心里是怎么撑过来的？

It's like, you know, it's like I just say, I feel like there is a sort of a, you know, what's your mental strategy to run an ultra?

换句话说，面对人生中那些重大的方向困境，你的心理策略是什么？

It's like, what's what's your what's your mental strategy to to get through, you know, life's big navigation problems as as the frame would have it?

这确实不容易。

It's like, it's tough.

但对我来说，关键是要愿意放下那些让情况变得更糟的东西。

But I think for me, it's like being willing to, like, eliminate something that's that's making it worse.

最近就有个运动员找我，说他陷入了Strava上的嫉妒情绪。

So, like, recently I had an athlete reach out who was, like, dealing with kinda like Strava jealousy, you know.

他看到朋友们跑得比他快，心里就特别不是滋味。

And they were like, like, see my friends and they're faster than me.

有些人确实参加比赛，但我真搞不懂。

Some of them might be in races, but I don't get it.

他们总是跑得比我快。

They're always running faster than me.

我当时就想，别看Strava就行了。

I'm like I was like, just don't look at Strava, you know.

有天他们突然说，我都没想过，其实只要少刷Strava，就能好很多。

And like, for some of the day, like, they were like, oh, I hadn't even really considered like just I could just limit my time looking at Strava.

对吧？

Right?

所以你得愿意放手那些让你更糟的东西。

So it's like, you gotta be willing to take away things that are are making it worse.

就拿我发那篇文章来说，让我觉得难受的，其实是得在公众面前做这件事。

And like for me, when I posted that particular article, it was like I'm what was making it worse was having to try to do this in public.

再说，粉丝数量多到像体育场那么大，其实大多数人只是随手刷过去，根本记不住你发过什么。

And, like like, there's something weird about having an Instagram following the size of a stadium wherein, yeah, certainly people or most people are just gonna scroll past you and not even remember what they you saw they they saw of yours that day.

对吧？

Right?

但说实话，这种从未经历过的脆弱时刻，真的很难熬。

But, like, it's it's, like, hard to be in this really vulnerable moment that's, like, you've never been through before.

在Cocodona超级耐力赛里，那确实是个脆弱的时刻，但那是我主动选择的，而且我有经验应对。

And, like, at ultra, Cocodona is a vulnerable moment, but it's a vulnerable moment that I've, like, chosen to be in and I'm ultimately, like, I've had experience navigating.

但这不一样。

Like, this isn't that.

我觉得，要在这种情况下表现得从容，真的挺难的。

And I think it's probably really difficult to do this gracefully.

所以对我来说，我干脆歇了一周，不带教练工作，也不碰Instagram。

And so I think, like, for me, I took a week off from from coaching and Instagram.

我就跟自己说，这事儿我不干了。

I was just like, I'm not doing it.

我的手机，说白了，现在就是我工作的延伸。

Like like, my phone basically, you know, represents my, like, my works to me at this point.

所以我干脆就把手机放在别处了。

And so I just, like, left my phone places.

我根本没带它出门。

I just wasn't taking it with me.

我觉得没必要马上回别人的消息。

Was like, I I don't need to be responsive to people.

我只需要把心里的事儿理清楚。

Like, I just need to get everything settled in my mind.

这就像是在Cocodona比赛时，突然决定小睡四十分钟一样。

It was just sort of it's it's the equivalent of being at Cocodona and taking that emergency forty minute nap.

你懂的吧。

You know?

这就相当于直接断电了，因为出问题了，我必须立刻采取极端措施来纠正。

It's just like, we're pulling the plug here because something's going wrong, and I have to take, like, drastic action to correct right away.

对。

Mhmm.

是的

Yeah.

我很喜欢你把这比作科科多纳的经历，毕竟现在这种说法都听腻了。

I love that you translate it to similarities at Cocodona because, I mean, we all like, it's it's cliche at this point.

生活就像超马，但真的挺像的，对吧？

Life is like ultramarathons, but it really is a similar thing because in that moment Right?

这招每次都特别管用。

It works so well all the time.

是的

Yeah.

当然了

For sure.

我的意思是，那时候，说实话，完全偏离了原计划。

I mean, because in that moment, like, dude, like, that was a huge deviation from the plan.

原计划就是打个盹儿，就这么简单。

The plan was, you know, take a dirt nap, and that's it.

连列侬也同意这一点。

And even Lennon agrees.

如果你看的是视频版，就去关注列侬，他根本没说过那种话。

Like, if you're watching the video version of this is go to Lennon, which, dude, he didn't he or no.

你是指他的纪念日吗？还是什么特别的日子？

You just got his gotcha day or what what anniversary?

是他生日吗？

Was it his birthday?

什么？

What

是的。

Yeah.

不是。

No.

我们是九年前的昨天得到他的。

It's a we we got him nine years ago yesterday.

哇，真的吗。

So Wow.

太厉害了。

That's amazing.

是啊。

Yeah.

他可是世界上最可爱的狗，听说第二可爱的也是他。

He is the first cutest dog in the world, and apparently, have the second second cutest.

第二可爱的。

Second cutest.

我看到了。

I saw that.

这真有趣。

That's funny.

不过说实话，我也不太确定。

But, man, no, I I think and, you know, I don't know.

是不是只要生活中有什么让你不满意的地方，你就得想办法改掉它？

Is there and is it really as simple as if something in your life you don't like, do you need to correct it?

我知道你的情况不一样，毕竟那不是你主动选择的。

I know in your situation, it's different because, obviously, it's, you know, something that you're not necessarily choosing.

对吧？

Right?

这更像是人生中一个你正在经历的阶段。

It kinda, you know, is just a a phase of life that you're going through.

不过听你这么说，你一般会建议别人怎么做呢？当然，每个人的情况都不一样。

But, I mean, as your maybe just listening to you, do you recommend and I know it's different for every person.

比如说，如果有人对某件事特别不开心，那就干脆别做了。

Like, if someone is, like, really unhappy with something, it's just like, don't do the thing.

换掉它。

Change it.

事情真的有那么简单吗？

Like, is it really that simple?

我觉得在很多方面确实如此。

I think in many ways it is.

当然，也有一些情况并不适用。

Obviously, there's, like, examples where it's not.

比如你有个老板特别讨厌，但你又没别的出路。

Like, if you have a job where your boss is a huge dick and and, like, you but you need like, you don't have other prospects.

你确实只能这样。

It's like you are Yeah.

你得靠这份工作养活自己。

You're making a living.

你可能每个月都靠发工资过日子，对吧？

You're living you you get like, you're living paycheck to paycheck maybe.

你明白的。

You know?

如果你连基本生存都成问题，那可能真没得选。

It's like, if if you're in a tight situation in terms of survival, like, you may not have the option to do this.

这其实就是生活的现实，你知道的。

And that's just a fact of life, you know.

但如果你有这个选择，比如你发现有什么事让你特别痛苦，就连我们刚才说的那个靠工资过日子的人也一样。

But if you do have the option to do this, like, if you identify something that's making you miserable and and even, like like we can even take that imaginary person living paycheck to paycheck.

他们可以下载Strava，开始锻炼，或者减少刷社交媒体的时间，转去做些更有意义、更让人满足的事。

They could have Strava and having been going through that problem or or they could be spending too much time on social media when they could be doing other things that were either productive and or fulfilling.

就连这样的人，也大概能删掉生活中某些东西，让每天的心情变好一点，至少让人生的方向感觉更清晰。

And even that person can probably eliminate certain things in their life to help improve the way that they feel day to day or at least the way that they like feel their life direction is heading.

对吧？

Right?

而对于那些不用为生存发愁的人，选择就更多了。

And then with anyone who's not in, like, that type of survival situation, you just have options.

就拿我来说，我完全可以请一周假。

So it's like in in the case in my in my case, I could just basically take a week off.

对吧？

Right?

这就像是，如果你有一份普通的工作，你可能会想：哎，我得去休个假了。

It's like like if if if you have a a more normal job, you might be like, hey, like, I need to go on a vacation.

有些人是有年假的，正好可以拿来用。

I mean, some people have vacation time and you can use it for this.

或者你可以意识到，家里总放着奇巧巧克力，结果就忍不住吃个不停。

Or you could just or you could identify the fact that when you keep Twinkies in your house, you end up eating those Twinkies.

再比如，如果你晚上总看电视，睡得就不会好。

Or you you know, it's like if if you watch TV at night, don't sleep as well.

这些道理其实适用于任何想要提升自己的方面。

Know, this is it's like all this applies to every possible realm of wanting to improve oneself.

不只是跑步这么简单。

You know, it's not just running.

也不只是去尝试新事物，因为我们每个人都会不自觉地回到旧习惯，哪怕那些习惯并不好。

It's not just navigating even something new because we all can manage sometimes to fall back into old habits even if they're not good ones.

关键就在于，你愿不愿意把那些没用的东西去掉。

But you just like being willing to eliminate waste.

我是说，从最广泛的意义上来讲。

And I mean that in, like, the broadest possible sense.

这其实是一项非常重要的能力。

Like, that's a really important skill.

对。

Mhmm.

还有一件事，我和你都聊过，安迪·弗塞拉也经常提到，就是‘别无选择’的心态。

And one thing that I know you and I have talked about that, you know, I know Andy Frisella talks a lot about too is, like, the no options mindset.

再回到超马运动，你能说说这个吗？

And, again, to bring it back into ultrarunning, can you talk about that?

我想，先从超马的场景说起，然后再谈谈它在现实生活中的应用，因为我觉得很多人确实会遇到这种困扰。

I guess maybe in an ultra setting and then also how that applies to real life because, again, I think a struggle that people can have.

我回想起自己刚起步的时候，根本什么都不懂，满脑子都是借口。

And I even think back to my earlier days where I just really didn't know really shit about fuck and honestly just made a lot of excuses.

很多人做事从来不是抱着‘别无选择’的态度，结果不仅在跑步上浪费了潜力，在生活里也一样。

It's like, you know, a lot of times people don't approach things with a no options mindset, and I think they leave a lot of performance on the table, not just in running but in life.

说说这种态度吧。

So talk about that approach.

说实话，我觉得我以前在播客里提过这事。

Because, dude, like and I'll tell I'll I think I've mentioned this in the podcast before.

我永远忘不了第一次去科罗拉多跟你一起训练的时候。

I'll never forget the first time I stayed with you when we were training in Colorado.

那时候你干的每件事都特别有目的性，真的。

And, like, dude, like, everything was fucking intentional, dude.

太不可思议了。

It was crazy.

你做的每一件事，都有明确的意图。

Like, everything you did was, like, intentional.

你做的每一件事，都不是随便做的，都有它的道理。

Like, there was no, like it was just like, you know, everything you did had a purpose.

你懂的。

You know?

但有时候你看到别人，甚至我自己也会做些事，然后问自己：我干嘛要这么做？

Whereas, like, sometimes you see people even for me, like, I'll do and I'm like, why did I do that?

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

我到底为什么要干这种事？

Like, why the hell did I do that?

我觉得这跟你那种别无选择的心态有关。

And I think it goes back for you living this no options mindset.

所以能不能聊聊这个？这个问题挺长的，但我就是想听听你怎么看。

So talk to us about that, I guess, land land on the plane there on a very long question.

对。

Yeah.

简单说吧，你可以把人生想象成一张菜单，就像去餐厅吃饭，如果你吃无麸质饮食，那含麸质的菜就直接划掉。

Basically, I think that if you picture your life as a menu you you picture a menu at a restaurant, it's like if you go there and you're gluten free, gluten free things are off the menu.

如果你是素食者，肉类就直接不在选项里，纯素食的话，所有动物制品都排除。

If you go there and you're a vegetarian, meat's off the menu, vegan, all those things.

对吧？

Right?

所以你看，你们俩可能盯着同一张纸，但对方的选项多得是，你的却没几个。

So it's like you can have a you can you can go and be looking at the same sheet of paper that someone with a really expansive diet, but you guys don't have the same menu.

你可以把这个比喻用在生活上，也用在超长耐力赛上。

And so you can think about the that same that analogy as it applies to life, as it applies to ultras.

每天早上醒来，你面对的是一堆都不错的选择。

And if you wake up each day with a certain menu of options that are all reasonably good.

比如，躺沙发上打四个小时游戏，这根本不在你的选项里。

Like like, not one of them isn't sit on your couch and play video games for four hours.

你不会选这个。

Like, that's not one of them.

你也不会点必胜客披萨。

One of them isn't, you know, order Little Caesar's.

必胜客的披萨太差了。

Little Caesar's terrible.

那可是最难吃的披萨了

It's the worst pizza in

全世界。

the world.

但如果你把所有这些选择都变成积极的，并且只把它们当作你的唯一选项，那你的人生自然就会朝着你想要的方向走，因为你早就提前安排好了自己的选择，列好了有限的选项清单。

But if, you know, if if you make all those options positive, then you just and you think of those as your only options, it's like that's going to lead to your life in the direction that you want it to go because you've already arranged your your choices ahead of time essentially, your and your list of limited options.

这在越野跑里也是一样，我们都聊过饮食这方面。

And this applies to ultras, and we've both talked about it with eating.

如果你决定每三十分钟就得吃一次，那就别说什么‘味觉疲劳’了。

It's like if you decide you're gonna eat every 30 minutes, you you don't get to say you have, air quotes, palate fatigue.

对吧？

Right?

你就是得吃。

You're just gonna eat.

我在莫阿布就遇到过这种情况，其实纪录片里也拍到了，当时任何东西一碰到舌头，我都想吐。

Like, I've had a situation at Moab where and you see it in the documentary actually where, like, everything that touched my tongue made me gag.

所有东西都得吃。

Everything.

但我还是每三十分钟吃一次，往嘴里塞一点能量胶，然后硬吞下去，我就这么挺过来的。

But I still ate every thirty minutes and I put a little bit of gel in and then I swallowed it and I and I like that's how I did it.

这些根本不是可以选择的选项。

And it's like these things are not options.

如果你想成功，就必须这么做。

You have to do this if you want to be successful.

这其实只是耐力跑中一个很简单的类比，但同样适用于很多其他事情。

And that's a that's a really simple ultra running version of that analogy, but it can apply to tons of other things too.

它适用于训练，也适用于比赛策略，任何你想要应用的地方都可以。

It can apply to training and, you know, it can apply to to race strategy, anything you kind of want it to.

关键是你得把选择清单安排成积极正面的样子。

It's just you have to arrange your the list in a way that's gonna be positive.

你觉得是什么让人不敢直接去做呢？

What do you think holds people back from just just doing it?

就像，或者说，我觉得我们心里都清楚该做什么，但有时候，有些人就是觉得很难去执行。

Like, or just just because I think we all fucking know what we need to do, but sometimes, like, it's just like, some people are like, it's just hard to do.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know?

就像，到底该

Like, what do

怎么想呢？

think you black?

我们其实就是些疯狂的猿猴，老兄。

We're just freaking apes, dude.

说真的，我们就是猴子。

We're like we're we're we're we're monkeys.

就是些带着硬盘、开着车、穿着塑料鞋跑来跑去的猴子。

We're monkeys with hard drives and vehicles and and and plastic and that we put on our feet and run around.

你懂的吧？

You know?

我们根本不是为这种自律而生的，因为我们的本能是看到香蕉树就一口气吃光，毕竟已经三十天没见着香蕉了。

It's like these are we're not wired for this kind of discipline because we're wired to eat all of the bananas at the banana tree since we haven't seen one for, like, thirty days.

你懂的。

You know?

所以从很多方面来看，我们的进化其实背叛了我们——无论是成瘾，还是那些负面的心理状态。

So it's it's it's just not it's it's like I think we're being betrayed by our evolution in a lot of ways with with addiction, with with many kind of negative mental pieces there.

但我们可以反抗这种本能。

But what we can do is rebel against that.

事实上，道德本身就是对进化的反抗。

And you know, morality itself is rebelling against evolution.

这可不是随口说说而已。

It's not like like Mhmm.

进化根本不会教你去关心隔壁村的人。

It's it's not like evolution is teaching you to care for the next village over.

它只教你关心身边最亲近的人，这也正是我们容易形成部落心态的原因。

It's teaching you to care for like the people closest to you which is why we're also tribal.

对吧？

Right?

但当你想成为一个更有远见、更善于思考的人，能够为长远做规划时，你就得反抗那些更原始的本能。

But it's like when you are trying to to be a, like, a more evolved person, a more thoughtful person who can plan over the long term, it's like you have to rebel against those kinda more basic instincts.

所以我觉得，自律这种行为本质上就是反进化的。

And so that's like like I mean, I literally think of sort of the practice of discipline as being like anti evolution.

如果你在开始培养自律之前就明白这一点，就会预期这事儿特别难。

And so if you already go into this challenge of being more disciplined knowing that, you're gonna expect it to be really hard.

所以我觉得，调整好这种预期很重要，因为很多人希望一开始就能立刻达到目标。

So I think like managing expectations in that way because I think people want to begin and then be there.

他们没意识到，从A到B，再到C，中间其实有一大段路要走。

There's no appreciation for there's like like the the space between a's, a b and c.

你明白我的意思吗？

Does that make sense?

是的。

Yeah.

就是得明白，这事儿会难到爆。

It's like understanding that it's gonna be hard as fuck.

你得一直跟人类最强大的力量之一对抗——生物本能、进化规律，那些深深刻在我们骨子里的原始需求，就跟我们老祖宗猴子时候一模一样。

Like, it's not gonna just be like a like, you're just gonna play this constant battle against literally one of the greatest forces of human existence, which is biology, evolution, like primal needs that are, like, hardwired in us, like, on our, like, monkey ancestors.

这么说对吧？

Is that correct?

对。

Yes.

我就是这个意思。

That is that is what I'm saying.

我这么一说，你就懂了。

When I say it like that.

我特别喜欢这一点，

I love I love that I

你这么说太到位了

said You put it so

对我来说太难了。

much for me.

这么差劲？

Suck at this?

你知道，因为我们本来就是猿类。

Know, like, because we're we're apes.

是的。

Yeah.

你的表达太到位了。

I mean, you you put that.

我花了几分钟才说清楚，你三十秒就讲得完美无缺。

I it took me, like, three minutes to say that, and you did it perfectly in, like, thirty seconds.

干得漂亮。

Well done.

别这么说，兄弟。

No, dude.

我是说，你表达得比我更清楚。

I'm just I mean, you said it more eloquently than I did.

但你知道，我觉得人们常常有种想法，觉得只要自己做了决定，结果就会立刻出现。

But, like, you know, I think I I I do think that there is this, you know, kind of perspective that people have to like, oh, like, I make a decision.

他们以为做决定本身就能带来改变，但实际上这只是一个过程。

They expect, like, just making the decision is gonna lead to the immediate result, but it's just like a process.

就像健身一样。

It's like fitness.

对吧？

Right?

确实是这样。

It's like Yeah.

如果你想变得更健康，找了个教练，虽然你确实做出了正确的决定，但光是请教练并不会让你变瘦。

If you wanna get fitter, like, and you hire a coach, yeah, you made a decision in the right direction, but just hiring the coach is not going to get you fitter.

你得日复一日地训练，才能真正达到目标，这过程会很难，你也会遇到很多新挑战。

You have to do the workouts day after day to actually get there, and it is going be hard and you're going to do new shit.

任何从A到B的过程，中间都难免要经历一些艰难的步骤，不可能立马看到成效。

You're going get the Any process of going from A to B is likely gonna involve some steps in the middle that are gonna be hard, and you're not gonna get this, like, immediate kinda turnaround.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

我们就是想要那种立竿见影的回报。

I mean, we want those instant rewards.

所以超市里最热闹的 aisle 就是麦片区。

That's why the breakfast cereal aisle is the most crowded on the grocery store.

早餐麦片到底是什么？

It's like, what is what is breakfast cereal?

它简直就是我们天生追求即时满足的具象化体现。

It's like a it's like a physical manifestation of the the metaphysical truth that we are, like, bred for instant gratification.

所以再说一遍，

So it's like, again,

老兄，别提麦片了。

Dude, fuck breakfast cereal now.

天啊，你这话说得也太狠了，我头一回听说有人这么黑麦片。

Now I'm like, that is that is like the most, like, demonized statement on breakfast cereal I've ever heard.

哎呀我的天。

Oh, man.

不过老兄，麦片真的超好吃。

It's so good, though, dude.

我好久没吃麦片了，但还记得小时候，一勺一勺往碗里堆满生命牌麦片，吃得停不下来。

I haven't had breakfast cereal for so long, but I'm like, I remember eating just heaping bowls of life cereal as a kid.

我就觉得吧，这事儿……

I'm just I it's like

偶尔一不留神，晚饭前就把一整盒都吃光了，那时候心里还美滋滋的。

so every now and then, you'd, like, accidentally eat an entire box before dinner, you'd be like, yeah.

才不是呢。

No.

我不饿。

I'm not hungry.

老兄，你想想，一口气吃掉三大碗麦片，居然还觉得没吃饱，可热量都快800大卡了。

Dude, it is crazy how, like, you can just crush three bowls of cereal, and it's, like, not even filling, but it's, like, 800 calories.

真离谱。

It's wild.

太离谱了。

It's wild.

不过确实好吃。

It's so good, though.

他们居然把麦片做得刚好契合我们大脑的弱点。

They've they've managed to make it the the perfect food for our little brains.

你懂的。

You know?

所以啊，很多事情都像这样容易被操控。

So, yeah, it's like everything's hackable like that.

我是说，为什么现在手机成瘾会成为社会上这么热门的话题呢？

I mean, why are why is like phone addiction such a, you know, talking point in our in in society right now?

确实，我们的大脑很容易被操控。

It's like, yeah, they our brains are hackable.

所以，提前认清这些道理，对自己理解世界、理解自我的能力保持谦逊，真的很重要。

And so, like, trying to to know all that upfront and and kinda being really humble in relation to, like, how much you think you understand about not only the world writ large, but, like, how you work as a person.

我觉得，提前管理好预期才是获得内心平静的关键，这样你才能坦然接受任何结果；而不是带着‘进步应该很轻松、不会经历大起大落’这种想法去面对挑战。

Like, managing expectations upfront, that's, I think, the way to to be content because then you can kind of accept anything that happens as opposed to when you, like, are going into a challenge, you're going into wanting to be a better person with the expectation that these will come easily and that there won't be, like, big ups and downs on the way.

那种想法，完全是十二岁小孩的思维方式。

Like, that's that's how a 12 year old thinks about things.

没错。

For sure.

我觉得这跟我们之前聊过的有关——你之所以能在做事上这么自律，其中一个原因，是你对痛苦有一种特别的态度。

And I think, like, it goes back to and we were kinda talking about this, like, before the podcast is, like, I think the reason one of the many reasons why you're so good at just, like, again, being so disciplined on the things that you do is because I think you have this, like, specific relationship to pain.

你懂的。

You know?

所以，你一方面谈得头头是道，但另一方面你也提到过，这种对痛苦的态度其实挺复杂的，能跟我们说说你和痛苦之间的关系吗？你是怎么把握这个平衡的？

So, like, talk well but at the same time, like, you've also talked about how that's been, like, kind of so, like, talk to us about, like, your relationship to pain and how you're kinda like, what balance you're kinda playing.

因为我觉得这特别重要，这里面其实存在一种矛盾。

Because I think it's very important because, like, there's, like, a dichotomy with it.

你懂我的意思吧？

You know what I mean?

我觉得你讲得特别到位，我们说的这种状态，一方面你好像得对痛苦保持警惕，但另一方面，这又跟我们之前聊的那些内容连在一起了。

And I think you're, like, articulating it really well, like, what we're talking about, like, where it's like, you almost wanna have this resistance to pain, but then there's also the other side of it that kinda goes back to what we were talking about before.

所以，能不能再深入聊聊你和痛苦之间的这种关系？

So I guess talk about talk about that relationship to pain.

因为我觉得，当一个人能说清楚这一点，并且慢慢学会处理它，这可能是过上真正值得过的生活最关键的一环。

Because I think when people can define that and they can get better at that, that is, I think, one of the biggest keys to unlock a life that is really worth living.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这里其实可以分出两种痛苦，一种是情绪上的，一种是身体上的。

I mean, there's two there's, like, kind of two types of pain to separate here, and there's sort of like the emotional pain and physical pain.

你懂的。

You know?

但这两者又不是完全能分开的，不过为了讨论清楚，还是有必要区分开来。

But and they're not exactly separable, but I think it's it's worth doing so just for the purpose of conversation.

我得坦白说，我脑子里有一部分觉得，能跑六十英里，慢慢把肌腱磨坏，这事儿还挺有魅力的。

And I will just say upfront that, like, I there's a piece of my little brain that finds the idea that I'm I'm I'm like tough enough to run 60 miles and slowly tear a tendon over time.

我脑子里确实有这种想法，觉得挺浪漫的。

Like, there's a piece of my brain that's like finds that a little bit romantic.

这确实是我会冒出来的念头。

Like, know, it's it's a thought that I have.

但我并不认同这种想法，我觉得这条路完全走错了。

I do not believe that and I think that that's like a totally mistaken train to go down.

这绝不是我想作为耐力运动员、教练，或者给别人做榜样的样子。

It's like not what I want to be as an endurance athlete, a coach, an example to other people.

但这个念头确实存在，它就在我心里。

But like I do have that thought so it lives there.

但我对疼痛，尤其是身体上的疼痛，一直是在慢慢调整的。我觉得自己在超马生涯中犯的最大错误，也是我一生中最大的错误，就是太贪多、太拼命、太自信了。

But like my relationship to pain, physical pain especially has been one that I've had to slowly try to attune over time because I think the biggest mistake I made in my ultramarathon career is the biggest mistake I've made throughout my entire life and it is just like taking on too much, doing too much, being too confident.

如果我要写一首关于英雄之旅的诗，这简直就是典型的傲慢自大，你知道的。

And like that's, you know, if if I was like writing a poem about a hero's journey, it's like a it's like a classic hubris, you know.

那种一点点存在主义式的傲慢，已经困扰我很久了。

You're just like like a little bit of existential arrogance has been something that has plagued me for a really long time.

我觉得这在某种程度上，和我对疼痛的体验是有关联的。

And I think that in a way relates to my my experience with pain.

所以作为跑者，我的职业生涯一直在慢慢降低自己能接受的疼痛程度。

So it's been a slow process as a as a runner in my career kind of dialing down the amount of pain I should be willing to tolerate.

一般来说，理疗师会说，跑步时疼痛控制在一到三分（十分制）是可以接受的，只要24小时内能恢复到正常水平。

So for most like soft tissue advice, PTs will tell you it's like a one to three out of 10 on the pain scale on given run is okay as long as it goes down to the baseline level in twenty four hours.

对吧？

Right?

而我已经把自己调整到了一到二分的水平。

And so I had already adjusted myself to a one to two.

我觉得我连三都受不了。

I'm like, I can't can't do the three.

我从前伤愈复出时，对那些小毛病太能忍了，承受了太多疼痛。

So I mean, I was like coming back from previous injuries and like little minor things, I was accepting too much pain.

所以慢慢地，我把忍耐阈值降到了一到二。

So, you know, over time, adjusting down to a one to a two.

就在参加科科多纳比赛前一个月，我跟你说过这事，是在科科多纳训练营之后。

I had going into Cocodona like a month prior to that, and I mentioned it to you when after the Cocodona training camp.

但就在那之前一个月，我臀部和腿后侧有点小问题。

But a month prior to that, I had like a little glute ham y thing kinda going on.

从那以后，每次跑步时，疼痛基本都在零点五到一之间，持续整整一小时，直到赛前减量训练到一半时都是这样。

And and like literally it would be a point five, maybe a one out of 10 for an hour of every single run I went on until about halfway through taper going into Cocodona.

我当时根本没太当回事。

And I didn't really think that much of it.

零点五到一的疼痛，几乎就只是稍微有点感觉，算个微小信号，但还不值得我特别留意。

You know, like a point five to a one is like almost it's just like noticeable enough to to be a blip but like not something I'm paying attention to.

但我觉得在Cocodona比赛中，我其实有个很轻微的潜在问题，可能是臀部或者腘绳肌之类的，身体在强行补偿，结果这问题一直撑了200英里。

But I think what happened at Cocodona is I had this like really minor underlying problem in my glute or hamstring or whatever and something was compensating and I mean it lasted 200 miles.

所以我说，我那时候的判断也没完全错，只是这问题撑不到250英里。

So it's not as if I was like way way off base, but it didn't last 250 miles.

所以现在对我来说，未来如果哪怕只是疼痛等级一到二，但每天都持续出现，持续一周以上，我就得停下来好好调整了。

So I think for me now in the future, like I'm I'm going to even if it's a point five or a one out of 10, if I feel it every day for a week, like, I need to take a step back.

我慢慢在调整自己的方法，更认真地对待身体发出的疼痛信号，因为总的来说，我的疼痛耐受度实在太高了。

So it's I'm like slowly over time, I've been adopting new and improved protocols for myself as it relates to how I feel pain because overall, I think my my tolerance is is much too high.

我的意志力可能是我最大的优势，但我也明白，每个人最大的优势往往也是他最大的弱点——我过去太依赖这个优势当借口了。

Like, you know, my mental toughness could be might be my greatest asset, but I think everyone's greatest asset is their greatest weakness because clearly I've leaned into that as a crutch for for too long here.

我得学会更聪明地回应身体的信号，就像我之前说的，把长期坚持作为真正的目标。

And I think I just need to start making smarter decisions in relation to, like, what the physical sensations are telling me in order to, like I said earlier, make longevity the focus.

老兄，你提到这点太重要了，因为咱们在超马圈里，确实容易把忍痛硬撑当成一种浪漫的品质。

Dude, it's it's super important to bring that up because, right, like, we we I think, like you said, romanticize in ultrarunning, like, being able to push through the pain.

但就像你说的，这种坚韧，有时候恰恰会变成致命的弱点。

But sometimes, like you said, the greatest strength of that can be a weakness.

关键是能平衡好这种矛盾，既保护长期健康，又能达成自己的目标。

And being able to manage that dichotomy of that protects longevity while also getting the goals that you want.

老兄，你这么讲，我真的特别欣赏。

And so, dude, I love the way that you explain it, man.

就像我说的，你是我认识的最有毅力的人之一。

And like I said, you're one of the most mentally tough dudes I know.

甚至听到你说，嘿，

And even to hear you saying, hey.

在某些方面，我确实得稍微收敛一点。

At some areas, I do need to curb this a little bit.

老兄，这对很多人来说都是一个特别有力量的教训。

Like, dude, that's that that's a really powerful lesson for a lot of people too.

我们快结束前，我还有一个最后的问题。

Last question I have on here too as we wrap up.

我觉得回到这部纪录片，它叫《锻造与失败》。

And, you know, I think to bring it back to the documentary, it's called Forge and Failure.

老兄，你简直就是‘失败不代表你’的最佳代表。

And dude, you become my poster child for failure does not define you.

这可能正是整个故事的核心，我记得你以前的运动员钱德勒在塞多纳峡谷时，我曾经带过他。

That might be the underlying message on this because I remember even you know, your athlete Chandler was at Sedona Canyons, and I used to coach him in the past.

现在他跟着你一起带队员了。

Now he coaches with you.

他有一阵子特别挣扎。

And he was struggling at a point.

他说：‘我上一段表现得不太好。’

He was like, oh, I didn't do well in that last section.

我就给他讲了你的故事——不只是在Cocodona那次大逆转，还有你怎么拿下三冠王，重新成为今天的自己。

And I told him the story about you know, how not only at Cocodona, like, you had that big reset and made the comeback, but how you earned the Triple Crown and came back as who you are today.

这部电影简直就是‘失败让人更强’的完美写照。

Like, movie is the epitome of, like, failure makes you stronger.

它不一定会让你变弱。

It doesn't necessarily make you weaker.

除了失败塑造人这个主题之外，你还希望观众看完这部纪录片后，能带走什么其他的感悟吗？

Is there any message also beyond just like the kind of motif of, you know, failure is the thing that forges you that you want people to get away from this documentary when they when they watch it for the first time?

对。

Yeah.

我想稍微细化一下“失败让人更强”这句话，因为我觉得并不是所有的失败都能让人变强。

And I and I think I would try to nuance, like, the failure makes you stronger phrase just a a little bit because I think it's like, frailer failure can make you stronger.

它并不是一个自动发生的过程。

Like, it's like, it's not it doesn't it's not an automatic process.

你懂的？

You know?

就像，把话题引回我自己身上，这肯定会扯到一起的，我保证。

Like like, when to to bring it to my this is this will connect, I promise.

不过先说回我的手术，每次要做的时候，大家总说长远来看肯定没问题的。

But to bring it to my surgery for a second, it's like when I'm going into it, everyone's always saying it's like in the long run it's gonna be fine.

我自己也这么安慰自己。

And I was telling myself that too.

这很可能确实是事实。

And that's probably almost certainly true.

成功率很高，诸如此类的话。

It's a high success rate blah blah.

‘长远来看会好起来’这句话掩盖了我为此必须付出的巨大努力。

And what in the long run it's gonna be fine obscures was the massive amount of work that it's going to take from me in order to make it be fine.

‘失败让你更强’这句话也掩盖了真正需要付出的巨大努力——去直面失败、从失败中学习，才能真正变得更强。

And what failure makes you stronger obscures is like the massive amount of work it takes to allow failure and to learn from failure so that it can make you stronger.

对。

Mhmm.

我觉得这跟我们之前聊过的开放心态其实是有联系的。

And I and I think this kinda connects to sort of what what we talked about, like being open to new ideas.

如果我在2024年之后还继续做以前那些事，再加上之前三年连续退赛，那简直就是疯狂——总做同样的事，却指望得到不同的结果。

And if I had just continued doing what I was doing after 2024 and then having the DNFs in the three years prior, like, you know, that's the definition of insanity is is continuing to do what you've always done and expecting different results.

我觉得你真的得愿意去理解这样的过程。

And I think we you you just have to be to be willing to learn about the process like that.