#127 询问Evoke：2025年10月运动员提交的问题

但我觉得很多时间紧张的运动员，通常会选一天做最大强度训练，第二天再跑个长距离但强度很低的轻松跑，两天就能完成不少训练量。

But I think a lot of athletes that are time constrained and we do like an ME session on one of the days and then do a longer but really intensity backed off easy session the second day and you can get a lot done in two days.

然后，对于这些运动员，我几乎总是安排周一作为恢复日。

And then, typically, I do with those athletes, I do almost always have Monday be a recovery day.

是的。

Yeah.

这够狠啊，马克。

That's hardcore, Mark.

你先让他们练肌肉耐力，第二天又逼他们跑长距离。

You're doing muscular endurance and then making them do a long day the next day.

哦，马克一直

Oh, Mark has been

跟这位运动员这么练。

with this athlete.

但不是对所有运动员都这样，得说清楚。

Not with every athlete to be clear.

我通常会给他们安排一天恢复，就是这样。

I usually give them a recovery day so there you go.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得对于高水平运动员来说，我之所以这么安排，其实最初是听了斯科特的建议，特别是针对一些高水平登山者——因为大山攀登中最累的往往不是登顶那天，而是背着所有装备搬到高海拔营地的那天，第二天还得继续爬。

I think for a higher level athlete and I got to this place Scott's suggestion originally actually with some of my higher level mountaineers because sometimes the hardest day on a big climb is the move to the high camp with all your stuff and then you have to be ready to climb the next day.

如果状态没调整好，那我真的帮不上忙。

And if you're not, then, you know, I can't help you.

所以这种状态没法在训练里模拟出来。

So, you can't do it in training.

这事儿可能你

It's probably You

做不到。

can't do it.

对。

Yeah.

把它们紧挨着放在路面上。

Put those back to back on the pavement.

没错。

So, yeah.

好的。

Okay.

下一个问题是来自芬恩的。

Next question is from Finn.

我想知道，你在平地上做乳酸阈值训练和在上坡路上做，这两者之间有什么区别？

I was wondering if you could share your thoughts on the differences between doing threshold workouts on flat terrain versus uphill.

特别是，我想了解，发展平地速度的好处，是否能超过上坡间歇训练在增强肌肉耐力和降低受伤风险方面的优势，尤其是在提升爬坡能力上。

In particular, I'm curious whether the benefits of developing flat speed might outweigh the muscular endurance and lower injury risk advantages of uphill tempo when it comes to improving climbing performance.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

这个问题问得很具体，非常好，我们可以深入聊聊。不过我想先听听马克的看法——平地快速跑真的能胜过肌肉耐力训练吗？

Well, think this is a really specific question, which is great because we can dive into it, but I'm curious to hear what Mark's initial thoughts are if flat fast running outweigh muscular endurance.

这得看你具体的目标是什么。

Depends a little bit on your goals.

这完全取决于目标，也跟运动员个人情况有关。如果你有跑步目标，而且目标路线不是特别多陡坡，那这里头还是有讲究的——顶尖选手和普通选手在训练投入产出比上，选择肯定不一样，对吧？

Extremely goal dependent and it's little bit it's goal dependent and it's a little bit athlete dependent in that assuming you have running goals, assuming those goals aren't ridiculously hilly, I still think there's a nuance here between like a higher performing kind of front of the pack athlete versus kind of a middle of the pack athlete as to what's gonna be the most bang for their buck training wise, right?

完全正确。

Completely.

对职业选手来说，速度训练很重要。

I mean, for a competitive athlete, speed work is important.

归根结底，你得有冲刺的能力。但对我们大多数人来说，这可能没那么关键。

Ultimately, you have to have that gear to jump For what I'll label as a lot of the rest of us, it's maybe not quite as important.

不过话说回来，我注意到，一般来说，包含上坡元素的训练对关节的冲击更小。

But with those caveats, I do find that in general the workouts that involve a hill component tend to be lower impact on the up.

是的。

Yeah.

如果受伤风险是你特别在意的问题——这需要你对运动员的训练背景有足够了解——我觉得上坡节奏跑特别适合，因为好处很多

So if injury risk is a big issue and this is kind of a you need a training history with your athlete, I I really think uphill tempo workouts are are great for that because there are a lot of

我也这么觉得。

I think so too.

看起来这个运动员在上坡时容易受伤，但我也同意，从防伤角度来说，上坡通常比平地快速跑步安全得多。

It seems like this athlete maybe gets injured uphill the way they wrote it, but I agree, like, uphill usually is, like, much safer than flat fast running from injury perspective.

对。

Yeah.

在跑步训练圈里有个说法，说上坡训练其实就是 disguised 的速度训练，虽然不完全准确，但确实有一定道理。

And there is this sort of saying in the sort of running training world that you know that hill work is speed work in disguise which is not totally true but it is to some extent.

你做上坡训练时，也能获得一些速度训练想要的那种刺激效果。

You know, you get some of that stimuli that you need when you're doing speed work.

当然，如果一个运动员需要同时练这两项，完全可以在一周或十天的周期里把两者都安排进去；如果安排不下，也可以轮流来，隔周换着练。

Of course, with any athlete that needs both of these, there's no reason you can't incorporate both of these into a weekly or ten day cycle and if you can't, you can alternate weeks.

但我个人的最终建议是，尽量两者都做，而且可以分阶段：比如在训练周期前期，先做上坡节奏跑——如果那算是比较不那么专项的，然后临近比赛时再增加平地速度训练，从专项性角度逐步过渡。不过说到底，保持健康永远是第一位的。

But I think my ultimate answer to this is I would probably try and do both and I would phase it where you know the training block before, I would do uphill tempo, let's say if that's the less specific and then I would do more flat speed work you know as you lead in from kind of specificity standpoint but as always, staying healthy is job one.

永远是第一位的。

Always job one.

不，我还想补充一点，我曾经带过一些顶尖的超马跑者，研究过他们的训练计划，我们会为这种情况做非常针对性的阶段安排。

No, and I would add, having worked with some of these really elite ultra runners and looked at their training and coached them, we do really specific phases for this.

如果他们要参加的是平坦快速型的超马，那他们就会做大量的田径场训练。

So if they have a flatter, faster ultra, they're doing way more track work.

他们依然会进行力量训练。

They're still strength training.

可能会有一点爬坡训练，但重点还是放在平坦和快速跑上。

They might be doing a little hill work, but the emphasis is more flat and fast.

而像UTMB这种比赛，他们几乎完全不练平坦快速跑。

Where then, you know, training first thing like UTMB, they're not doing much flat, fast work at all.

他们早就练过这些速度训练了。

They already have that speed work.

我们年初就已经做过了。

We did that earlier in the year.

现在我们主要集中在肌肉耐力和爬坡节奏跑上，两者都兼顾。

We're really working on a lot of muscular endurance and uphill running tempo, kind of both.

这些通常是分开训练的。

Those are usually separate sessions.

我们会做负重上坡跑，侧重肌肉耐力，然后也会做无负重的节奏跑。

We have uphill running work with weight, more of a muscular endurance, and then also tempo work without weight.

所以根据目标不同，这两种训练都很关键。

So specific to the goals, both are really important.

但如果你容易受伤，我再强调一遍，上坡训练通常更安全，因为冲击力更小。

But if you are injury prone, I would emphasize again, uphill work is usually safer because there's less impact.

是的。

Yeah.

我觉得甚至在运动员之间，根据各自的目标不同，有些人天生就比别人更擅长快速蹬地。

I think there's also a little, you know, even within athletes, within their goals, etc, some athletes just have a lot more natural leg speed than others, you know?

没错。

Absolutely.

我有个观点，如果你在高中时练过田径或越野跑，而且很早就打下了基础，那这种速度优势会伴随你一生。

I have a theory that if you did track or cross country in high school and you develop it really early, you're just faster for the rest of your life.

是的

Yeah.

我们有一些现在练交替跑的运动员，以前是短跑选手出身的。

And we have athletes that run alters now that came out of were short distance runners.

是的

Yeah.

他们以前练五公里或者一英里的，这类运动员天生脚程就快。

They were five ks runners or even milers and those athletes tend to have a lot of natural foot speed.

也许他们根本不需要特别多训练，因为速度本来就在线，稍微保持一下就能维持住。

Maybe that's something they just don't need it as much because it's just it's just there, you know, or it takes it takes very little stimuli to kinda keep it right at

没错。

Exactly.

他们的速度本来就稳。

Their Yeah.

不过我们确实也会让很多超马运动员练快速跑道训练。

But we do do fast track work for a lot of our ultra runners.

当然。

Absolutely.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

如果你打算跑步的话。

If you want to run.

对。

Yeah.

我的意思是，越野跑领先者的成绩要求你必须具备出色的跑步能力。

Mean, the the times for front runners and ultra running are such that you have you have to be able to run.

你得能跑得特别特别快。

You have be able to run really, really fast.

我根本没法以这些人越野赛的速度跑完一英里。

I can't even do one mile at some of these people's ultra ultra race pace.

好了，来问个投票相关的问题。

Alright, question for the vote cast.

我是个越野跑者，附近有座山，山顶有个消防瞭望塔，我经常去那里跑步。

I'm a trail runner and I have a local mountain with a fire tower that I often run on.

是啊，我也会做一点类似的。

Oh yeah, I do a little bit of that as well.

我通常会爬到塔顶，因为跑步记录要求必须上去，然后在上面停几分钟，好好欣赏一下风景，再往下走。

I usually climb the fire tower at the top, which you have to for the run account, and will pause for a few minutes to appreciate the view before heading back down.

但每当我开始从塔里的楼梯往下跑，大腿前侧立刻就会变得特别紧绷、酸痛。

However, when I start going down the stairs of the tower, my quads immediately start getting extremely tight and sore.

这种情况只在从消防塔往下跑时才会出现，而且不是抽筋的感觉。

This only happens in this specific situation of going down the fire tower and does not feel like cramping.

感觉更像是延迟性肌肉酸痛，但又不太一样。

It feels like DOMS which it would be like the opposite.

那种感觉是立刻就来的，像是急性肌肉酸痛。

That's like the immediate on be the I OMS.

我稍微活动一下缓解紧绷感，一切就恢复正常了。

When I alleviate the tightness with some movement, everything seems fine.

这到底是怎么回事啊？约翰，你怎么看？

What is going on here, Ask John?

玛雅，你有什么想法吗？

Any ideas there, Maya?

我不清楚。

I don't know.

这问题挺特别的，说不上多重要，但还挺有意思。

This is kind of a Briefly interesting specific question.

对。

Yep.

你在火塔顶上吃东西吗？

Do you eat at the top of the fire tower?

也许你只是需要补充点能量，帮身体恢复。

Maybe you're just like you need some calories to help with your body.

我不清楚。

I don't know.

热量赤字。

Caloric deficit.

我的意思是，听起来你就是站在那儿太久，身体僵住了。

I mean it kind of just sounds like you're just getting stiff from standing there.

你刚爬完上去，乳酸还没排掉，一往下走，全身就越来越紧。

You're just like move like the lactate hasn't flushed out from going up so you kind of go down and everything is tightening.

好在没抽筋。

Glad it's not cramping.

我觉得吧，除非你专门训练过，否则没必要太担心。

I would say I don't know, unless you're specifically training for something, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.

下次可以试试吃点东西，再根据你那个瞭望塔的情况，往下之前绕着小圈走几圈，看看会不会好点。

Maybe try eating something next time and depending on your fire tower, walk around in a tiny little circle a couple of times before going down to see if that doesn't help.

我的意思是，我们谁不是跑完猛冲后一停下，或者练完直接上车回家，一进门就感觉浑身僵硬，动都动不了呢？

I mean, I think we all get stiff if you run hard and then stop or you do a workout and you get in your car and you get home and you're like, Oh my gosh, I can barely move.

我觉得这并不奇怪。

I don't think that's unusual.

有意思，感觉像是离子反应，延迟性肌肉酸痛那种感觉。

Interesting that it feels like ions, DOMS ions.

对，就是那种感觉。

Yeah, like that.

这其实有点像一个人在参加耐力赛时没做好下坡准备，上坡时把大腿前侧的肌肉彻底用光了。

Yeah, this is I mean, in some ways this like a little microcosm of somebody who is doing an alter and isn't prepared for the down, you know, and then they kind of smoke their quad all the up.

但这种情况发生在极短的时间内。

But this is happening in a super tall, super small timeframe.

我们爬坡时确实大量使用股四头肌，肌肉疲劳后，一遇到陡峭下坡，就得让它们承受全新的离心负荷，它们可受不了，这也就是为什么在大型赛事中，下坡前的充分准备特别关键。

You know, we do use our quads a ton on climbs and they get fatigued and then when you go down something really steep, you're now asking something new with them with the eccentric loading and they don't like that and that's kind of in a nutshell why we need to be really prepared for downhilling in these big races.

我觉得上坡时稍微控制一下节奏，可能会缓解一点这种情况。

You know, I think that some careful pacing on the up might alleviate the situation a little bit.

这个人其实很适合做一些针对性的力量训练。

This person could be a candidate for some really specific strength work too.

当然了。

Oh, for sure.

对。

Yeah.

医生。

Doctor.

我不确定。

I don't know.

不过，没错，这其实又回到了我们之前提到的一个观点。

But, yeah, it's that's and this is kind of gets back to one of our earlier point.

这就是为什么楼梯对很多山地运动员来说是很好的训练方式，因为它特别苛刻。

This is why stairs are actually a good training tool for a lot of especially mountain athletes because they're ruthless.

明白吗？

Know?

医生。

Doctor.

确实特别狠。

Totally ruthless.

如果你能晃开那种感觉，等你下山后继续跑步，那大概说明你没伤到哪儿。

And if you can shake it out, you know, by the time you get down and then continue on with your run, it's probably a pretty good sign that you're not like hurting something.

对。

Yeah.

医生。

Doctor.

是的。

Yeah.

准备好了吗？下一个问题。

Are you ready for the next question?

另一个问题，不确定是不是同一个叫Finn的人，他说：感谢你们在Evoke耐力社群里所做的一切。

Another question from I don't know if it's the same Finn, but Finn asks, Thank you for everything you've done in the Evoke Endurance community.

哦，在耐力社群里。

Oh, in the Endurance community.

这是给斯科特的，我们会转告斯科特，你向他致谢。

This is to Scott, so we'll tell Scott you say thank you.

据我了解，按照传统的训练方式，最大摄氧量能力是通过高强度间歇训练来提升的。

From my understanding and a more traditional training approaches, ME is developed through high intensity intervals.

因为你的ME训练方法整体负担较低，我能不能用一次阈值或次阈值训练来替代每周的四区训练？

Because your ME training methods have a lower global cost, can I replace my zone four workout with an additional threshold sub threshold workout during my week?

每周做两次阈值训练。

Two thresholds workouts per week.

在完成ME训练阶段后转为负重上坡跑，这应该替代一次训练课，还是只替代健身房训练？

Also in transitioning to uphill weighted running post ME block, should this replace a workout and a gym work or just the gym work?

再次感谢。

Thanks again.

这个问题有点复杂，可以从几个角度来理解，不过我觉得其中有些概念我们可以理清楚，对你会有帮助。

This little is bit of a complicated one and there's a couple of ways of interpreting the question but I think there's some concepts here that we can tease out that are going be helpful.

首先，我对‘ME训练方法整体负担更低’这个说法有点不同意见。

Firstly, would take a little bit of issue that ME training methods have a lower global cost.

我很多运动员的训练，虽然从强度上看并不是最高的，但可能在恢复方面要求最高

With a lot of my athletes, yeah, they're not the highest intensity if we want to look at it that way, but they do probably have the highest

恢复，而且

recovery And

正因为如此，我在安排训练结构时，对这些训练的放置比其他任何训练都更谨慎

take the most care probably of where I put them in the architecture of training than any other workout because of that.

所以我觉得这一点很重要，确实如此

So I think that's an important Yeah.

除了像那种接近最大无氧阈值的间歇训练之外

I mean other than maybe like really max anaerobic threshold intervals.

对

Yeah.

没错

Yeah.

那些训练的总体负荷可能是最高的，我觉得运动员说的正是这个意思

Those probably have the highest global I would argue the highest, like, global cost, which I think is what this athlete's saying.

他这是在做四区间的训练。

It's like he's doing zone four intervals.

对。

Yeah.

从整体疲劳程度来看，这种训练比肌耐力训练的影响更大。

That's gonna probably have more fatigue effect than muscular endurance just globally.

但从肌肉层面来说，我觉得肌耐力训练会让身体酸痛得更久。

But muscularly, I would argue that the ME is going to leave you sore for longer.

是的。

Yeah.

我相信你也有同感，玛雅，不同人对肌耐力训练的生理反应差异挺大的。

And I'm sure you see it too, Maya, but there's a fairly broad range of people's physiological response to ME work.

当然了。

Oh, for sure.

没错。

Yeah.

很多时候我会把这归因于人是快肌纤维还是慢肌纤维占主导。

You know there's a lot of times I kind of blame it on people being fast twitch versus slow twitch.

训练历史因素也很复杂，但你想想，两个运动员，我给他们安排了一套我觉得挺有挑战性的膝盖训练，结果有些人第二天还能轻松再来一次，完全没当回事。

Training history there's a lot going on there but you know you can have two athletes and honestly I've had athletes you give them what I think is a fairly rigorous in knee workout and they could do it the next day if they needed to again without it being that big a deal.

可另一些人呢，连下楼去厨房都得屁股蹭着地慢慢挪，根本动不了。

Other athletes like they're sliding on their butt to get downstairs to go to the kitchen because they can't.

这种差异确实很大，所以如果我侧重肌肉耐力训练，我就会把它算进去——其他负重训练也一样。

There's a big variance there, but I tend to, if I'm leaning into muscular endurance work, I tend to count that, and this also goes for other associated weighted work.

我会把它看作对力量的很大消耗。

I tend to count that as having a big strength drain.

既然要讲究对等替换，如果他们的力量训练安排已经很满，我就会从力量训练里删掉一项，换成肌肉耐力训练。

It has a big strength component and so I tend to if we're talking about replacing apples with apples, I tend to pull something out of the strength realm if they've had a fairly robust strength schedule and replace it with ME.

一周就七天，你要加新内容，总得减点别的。

There's only seven days in a week something has to give if you're going introduce something.

我觉得对高水平运动员来说，尤其是我带的不少运动员，只要恢复得不错，完全可以在训练里加入肌肉耐力训练，再搭配一套高强度的无负重间歇训练，因为这两者针对的是不同的目标。

I do think for higher level athletes and I do this with quite a few of my athletes, if they're recovering well, there is room for an ME intervention and a higher intensity unladen interval structure for athletes because they kind of get at different things.

很多时候，我会减少运动员做的这类间歇训练量，特别是当训练强度处于三区上限或四区下限时。但在七天的训练周期里，如果已经删掉了一次力量训练，同时安排这两种训练还是有空间的。

A lot of times I'll scale back this kind of volume of intervals that an athlete might be doing especially if it's like upper zone three or lower zone four work but I think in a seven day schedule and especially if you're taking out a strength workout, there's room for both of those in the same training block.

是的。

Yeah.

我不太会这么做。我觉得他想问的是：既然我替换了肌肉耐力训练，那接下来呢？

What I wouldn't do is I think what he's asking is, Okay, I'm taking I'm replacing muscular endurance.

肌肉耐力训练的负荷其实没那么大。

Muscular endurance is less of a load.

我是这么理解的，所以我会再加一次乳酸阈值训练，但其实我觉得肌肉耐力训练的负担并不小。

It's kind of how I'm reading it so then I'm going to add another threshold workout where I would say, know that muscular endurance is quite a lot of load.

保留它。

Keep that.

你完全可以再安排一次别的。

And you could do one other.

不过我不会把它直接叫做乳酸阈值训练。

I wouldn't necessarily call it a threshold workout though.

你也是这么理解的吗？

Is that how you're reading it as well?

对。

Yeah.

我觉得“阈值”这个词不太准确，因为有好几种不同的阈值，对吧？

And I think threshold is an unfortunate term because there's a couple of different thresholds, right?

没错，这是个术语定义的问题。

That's Yeah, a semantics issue.

不过我会说，能同时做耐力训练和两次阈值训练的，都是极少数的顶级运动员。

But I would say it is a rare and extremely high performing athlete that's doing Emmy and two threshold workouts in

在一周里完成这些训练。

the Workouts same a week.

那样很容易让自己过度训练。

That's a really easy way to overwork yourself.

另外，关于最后一个细节，在耐力训练阶段结束后过渡到负重上坡跑时，这应该替换掉一次训练课、一次健身房训练，还是仅仅替换健身房部分？我会把负重上坡跑视为耐力训练。

And also, the last little bit, when transitioning to uphill weighted running post Emmy block, should this replace a workout, a gym workout, or just the gym work, I would consider weighted uphill running to be ME.

所以我不觉得这算一个新的训练阶段。

So I wouldn't classify that as like a new block.

它可能是从负重转向肌耐力的调整，但我依然把它归为肌耐力训练。

It might be a new weighted to muscular endurance, but I would still consider it muscular endurance.

同样的道理，如果你之前每周去一次健身房，现在改做上坡跑，那就直接替代了它。

So same goes, like, I would if you've been doing gym once a week and now you're doing uphill running, that's replacing it.

我不建议再额外增加其他内容。

I wouldn't try to add in anything else.

你或许可以增加一次健身房训练，用来维持力量、提升最大力量，或者做上坡循环训练，但得小心把握。

And you might wanna add a second gym day for maintenance strength or max strength or uphill circuit but I would be careful with that.

训练量大并不一定更好。

More isn't always better.

恢复同样重要。

Recovery is necessary.

对，确实如此。

Yeah, yeah for sure.

对，我也觉得肌肉耐力更像是一个连续的过程，而不是某个具体的点。

Yeah and I also like to think of and talk about ME as a little bit of a continuum as opposed to a specific point on the line.

只要你做的训练带有负重或者类似的效果，就要在训练计划里留出空间，确保有足够的恢复时间。

Know anytime you're doing something that's probably weighted or has kind of that effect, you want to be creating room in the training architecture to make sure you have recovery for it around it, you know.

这些思路挺不错的。

Some good ways to think about it.

有时候，少就是多，关键是要把训练做到位，同时保证充分恢复。

Sometimes less is more with these and just hitting these workouts really hard and making sure you recover from them.

下一个问题稍微复杂一点。

Next question is little bit multifaceted.

我们

We

要不直接跳到第11个吧，或者我也不确定。

could skip to 11 or I don't know.

我们要跳吗？

Do we want to?

我觉得我们可以从中梳理出几点。

I think we can tease out a couple of things here.

好的。

Okay.

这位运动员有九个月的备战期，最终目标是完成垂直跳跃。

Specifically, this athlete has a nine month run up and their ultimate goal is a vertical K.

所以他们在问，二区训练应该占多大比重。

So, they're asking how much of a priority zone two is.

即使对于时间较短的项目，比如垂直跳跃，虽然可能只持续一分钟，但二区训练依然重要。

It's certainly even for shorter or depending on how quick you are, not so short vertical case because it can go on for a minute.

显然，二区训练是你整个训练体系的基础。

Obviously zone two is super important as your kind of underlying bread and butter here.

他们主要提出了两个问题。

And then they basically have two questions.

考虑到短时间高强度训练中心率通常很高，你会选择哪种阈值训练，以及什么时候安排？

Threshold work given the high heart rates and typical duration involved for the shorter work, what type of threshold work would you apply and when would you implement them?

那么，Emmy，针对这种比赛对力量需求的比例，是该采用健身房训练和标准爬坡的肌肉耐力方式，还是应该安排更多、更长的训练组数更合适？

And then, Emmy, would the gym based and standard hill climb muscular endurance approach apply or would multiple and longer iterations given the proportion of strength requirements this type of race be more appropriate?

他们还描述了这个人的具体情况。

And they describe their situation.

这个人体重一百八十五磅，从一般标准来看，他并不算瘦小——毕竟大多数垂直登顶顶尖选手通常身材比较轻盈，但他本人体型偏大，所以他想知道，考虑到他只是想

This person weighs one hundred and eighty five pounds so depending on your frame of reference, they're not tiny at all compared to most kind of VK front runners tend to be kind of more slightly built, probably aren't that big but he's wondering if muscular endurance might be a really important component given, yeah, the fact he's just trying to

往上爬。

go uphill.

是的，他体重一百八十五磅。

Yeah, and he weighs one hundred and eighty five pounds.

我觉得这里面有几个关键点我们可以梳理出来。

So, I think there's a couple of things we could tease out

从这些信息里确实能提炼出不少有价值的内容。

of this some great things out of that for sure.

我觉得肌肉耐力训练是可以考虑的。

I would say you could do your muscular endurance could be kind of considered.

我觉得用爬楼机练肌肉耐力会很有帮助。

I think you could get a lot out of like a stair climber muscular endurance.

如果你用爬楼机，可能会进入比较高的心率区间，但不一定非得背50磅的背包，30磅可能就够了——这样既能制造肌肉疲劳，又能练到乳酸阈值。另一种思路是做高强度间歇训练，但我还是更推荐像你说的那样，多做二区的上坡训练，毕竟你得积累大量的上坡时间，背着包在爬楼机上练，我觉得是最推荐的方式，因为到时候你确实会处在三区、四区，拼得挺狠的。

You're gonna probably get into some of that higher zone if you like you might not want a 50 pound pack you maybe want a 30 pound pack so you're getting some of that muscular fatigue standpoint but you're also getting some of that threshold work that's the one way to look at it you could do some higher intensity intervals going into it but I would prioritize like yeah like you said zone two work uphill you just need a lot of uphill time and muscular endurance with a pack on a StairMaster that would probably be like my top recommendation because you're gonna be, yeah, like you said, zone three, zone four, pushing pretty hard.

然后我建议做三组八分钟，或者稍微长一点，尽量往上跑，能跑多远就跑多远，一直坚持下去。

And then I would probably do, like, three times eight minutes or maybe a little bit longer just running uphill, see as far as you can get and keep going with that.

如果时间允许，可以在开始耐力训练前加几组上坡冲刺，给腿部增加一些爆发力。

If you have more time, you could do a hill sprint as well before you kind of start that ME block to get some power in your legs.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这位运动员很适合在训练的某些阶段，把耐力、间歇和阈值训练结合起来，比如五组五分钟、三组八分钟，总时长控制在半小时以内，持续施加负荷。理想情况下，最好能在户外、坡度很陡的地形上背着包训练，如果比赛要用登山杖，也一定要带上。但如果没有这样的地形条件，那爬楼机确实是非常适合这位运动员的选择，毫无疑问。

I think this athlete probably be a good candidate for in some of those phases simultaneous duration interval threshold work kind of like you're talking about where it's five by five minutes, three by eight minutes, under half an hour total time under tension where they're really just going to But the then also ideally outdoor weighted ME in a really steep environment and of course with poles if that's going to be included in the goal race and making that super But barring having terrain like that then StairMaster Emmy for sure I think is going to be really applicable for this athlete given their situation for sure.

对。

Yeah.

太好了。

Awesome.

好的。

Okay.

下一个问题，我已经按照这个肌肉耐力计划练了八周，还是有延迟性肌肉酸痛。

This next question is, I'm eight weeks into the sample muscular endurance plan and I'm still experiencing DOMS.

不过还好，能扛得住。

It's very manageable.

拉伸完之后，跑步完全没问题。

I can still run comfortably once I get stretched out.

就是想确认一下，这正常吗？

But I'm just wondering if that's normal.

另外，如果因为时间不够，把训练拆成两段做，效果会打多少折？

Also, how much effectiveness of the workout do I lose if I have to split it up into two sessions for time constraints?

比如早上做分腿跳和跳跃深蹲，晚上再做箱步、登阶和弓步，没法一次练完。

For example, if I have to do the split leg jump squats and jump squats in the morning and then do box steps, step ups and lunges in the evening so I don't have enough time to do it in one session.

谢谢，杰克。

Thanks, Jake.

我觉得你没问题。

I think you got this.

对。

Yeah.

前半部分其实很好回答。

Well, the first half is the easy answer.

做肌肉耐力训练后有点酸痛，这正常吗？

Is it normal that people are a little sore after they do ME?

正常。

Yes.

我们一直都在说这个。

We keep talking about

对。

that.

这其实

It was

就像今天这个ME Ask Evoke特别节目一样。

like the ME Ask Evoke special podcast today.

完全没错。

Totally.

有些人会有点酸痛。

Some people are a little bit sore.

有些人则疼得厉害。

Some people are wildly sore.

通常做两到三次之后就会好很多，但在八到十周的疗程中，感到轻微酸痛是很常见的。

It generally gets better after two to three sessions but it's not uncommon that people experience some soreness throughout an eight or ten week cycle.

所以，是的，这完全正常。

So yeah, that's totally normal.

我的标准是，跟运动员聊的时候，我会说，有点酸痛没关系。

My yardstick there, what I like to talk about with athletes is it's okay to be a little sore.

但在我看来，要是疼到影响行动，那就不太正常了。

In my mind, it's not okay to be what I think of as kind of boarding on incapacitated.

就像下楼梯时得滑着下去

Like the sliding down the stairs to get

去睡觉。

to bed.

对，就得这样持续个三天。

Yeah, like three days.

没错。

Exactly.

是啊，确实如此。

Yeah, yeah.

这背后有几个原因。

For a couple of reasons.

首先，我觉得这样反而得不偿失，因为身体恢复、重新跟上训练的周期太长了，你错过了大量本可以完成的训练机会。与其只做这一项然后瘸着走一整周，不如干脆把那一整段训练都完成，效果会更好。

One, I think it's just not helpful like the compensation cycle to come back and be better is so long that missed a lot of training opportunities that if you take in totality would have been better off doing that chunk of work than just doing this one thing and then hobbling around for a week.

而且这本身也完全没必要，还特别难受。

And it's also just wholesaling unnecessary and really unpleasant.

有点酸痛，是的。

A little soreness, yeah.

完全不会瘫痪。

Incapacitated, absolutely not.

所以，关键在于合理调整强度和负荷。

So, that's just scaling and loading to get that right.

第二点稍微复杂一点，但凡是涉及耐力、或者耐力是目标一部分的训练，对吧？

The second one is a little more nuanced but anything that has an endurance component or endurance is part of the goal, right?

如果拆成两段，每段需要承受的负担就少了，这很可能就错过了训练的真正价值。

If you split it up, there's less to endure and that's probably a miss.

我经常遇到运动员问这个问题，比如要完成四小时或六小时的训练，他们会问：能不能分成两次做？

I get this question more from athletes like with a long session where we want to do four hours of work or six hours of work and they're like, Can we split it into two?

我的回答总是差不多的。

And my answer is kind of always the same.

如果非得拆成两次才能完成，那当然可以分。

It's like if that's the only way we can get that work done then yes, split it into two.

但这样一来，我们其实是浪费了一部分潜力。

But it is we're leaving something on the table there.

这样做效果不够好。

It's suboptimal.

一般来说，对于ME训练，我认为你应该能在一个 session 里完成，因为如果你效率高，大多数ME训练其实一小时就能搞定，大多数人一周里都能挤出一整段空闲时间来完成。

And in general with ME, I think that you should be able to get it done in one session because if you're efficient, should be able to get this done in an hour with most of these ME workouts and most folks can find an hour somewhere in their week to get it done in one contiguous session.

所以我更希望运动员能稍微降低一点强度，把训练安排在一个 session 里完成，这才是你应该追求的目标，而不是拆成两次。

So I would rather see the athlete maybe scale it back just a little bit and fit it into one session is their kind of primary goal than to split it in two.

不过，我们生活的世界本来就不完美。

But again, the world we live in is not perfect.

如果你实在没别的选择，那就拆成两次，先把训练做完再说。

If that's your only choice, split it in two and get the work done.

但还是尽量争取

But try and do

一次完成。

it in one.

没错。

Definitely.

我完全同意这些观点。

I agree with all of that.

确实如此。

Definitely.

你有点没抓住重点，就像你刚才说的，如果把训练时间缩短了。

You're kind of missing the point, like you were saying, if you make the workout shorter.

如果真得缩短，那就别做八组，做六组就行，或者做四组，同时缩短休息时间。

If you do need to make it shorter, though, make like, do six sets instead of eight or do four sets and make the recovery shorter.

或者干脆，要是没法完成全部六个动作，或者四个，那就挑三个认真做完，把每组每 reps 都做到位，然后收工。

Or even, like, drop one like if you can't get through all six exercises or four, whatever you listed, like do three of them really well and do all of the sets and all the reps and then be done.

我觉得你开始第二段训练时，身体已经有点累了，但又没达到完整训练后该有的疲劳程度。

I think you're kind of you go into that second session already fatigued, but then not as fatigued as you probably should have been from the full session.

所以从某种角度说，两段训练你哪一段都没练透，这是我看法。

So in some ways, you're kind of not getting as much out of either is my take.

但你得动手去做，别光说不练。

But yeah, you can't do it, get it done.

好的。

Okay.

咱们看看下一个问题是啥？

Let's see what's our next question?

我刚才看岔了咱们的表格。

I got lost on our sheet.

我们现在是第12个。

We're number 12.

对，就是这个。

Which is Yeah.

这是比尔提的。

This is from Bill.

比尔读过我们关于最佳狙击手比赛的那篇文章，真不错。

Bill had read our article about the Best Ranger competition which is awesome.

谢谢你们的播客和这么棒的资源。

Thanks for the podcast and great resources.

我这儿有几个问题，都不算长，我觉得可以简单聊聊。

Got a few questions here which none of which are too lengthy I think we can touch on.

他想问问有没有推荐的书，范围比较广，不管是励志的、技术性的，还是其他类型的都行。

He was hoping for book recommendations and this is kind of wide ranging whether they're inspiring, technical, or otherwise.

力量训练的时候，整体应该保持在什么强度区间？这重要吗？

For strength training workouts what zone should they be in overall or does it matter?

这个问题才是关键。

That's the meat of this question.

然后他还问了关于拉伸训练的建议。

And then, they're asking about recommended stretching regimes.

是的。

Yeah.

明白了。

Okay.

嗯，我打算

Well, I'm gonna

你先挑一个来聊聊吧？

just You want to tackle dive any of those?

好啊。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我先说第二个问题。

I'm gonna dive in with number two.

力量训练的时候，不用管心率在哪个区间。

For strength training, does not matter what heart rate zone you are in.

心率只是强度的一个参考指标。

Heart rate is a proxy for intensity.

我们用它就是这个目的。

That's what we use it for.

它并不总是最精确的，但用来衡量有氧运动效果还挺不错的。

It's not the most accurate all the time, but it's pretty great for aerobic work.

用来判断肌肉疲劳就不怎么靠谱了。

It's not great for muscular fatigue.

所以去健身房，好好练力量训练吧。

So get in the gym, do your strength training.

我们通常都会大概估一下力量训练的强度，因为心率监测器根本测不出肌肉的疲劳程度。

We usually fudge like the intensity for strength training because our heart rate monitors don't pick up muscle fatigue.

力量训练时，你甚至都不用戴胸带式心率监测器。

You could not even wear your chest strap for strength training.

我根本不太在意这个，因为训练的目标是让肌肉疲劳，而不是让心肺系统或无氧系统疲劳。

I don't worry about it much at all because the purpose of the workout is muscular fatigue, not cardiovascular aerobic fatigue, anaerobic fatigue.

第三项，拉伸。

For number three, stretching.

找一种适合自己的方式就行。

Find something that works.

找一个你能坚持做的。

Find something you'll do.

我有个专门针对髋部的小动作组合，经常让我的运动员做。

I have a little hip routine I make a lot of my athletes do.

我一般建议把拉伸和活动度训练放在训练的最后。

I think even like usually I recommend stretching and mobility work towards the end of a workout.

热身时可以做一些动态活动，但静态拉伸最好留到结束时做。

Could use some mobility to warm up, but, like, static stretching, do at the end.

对的。

Yeah.

哪怕你找到五个喜欢的动作，每个保持三十秒到一分钟，也比什么都不做强。

I would say just even if you find five exercises you like and hold them for thirty seconds to a minute, you're gonna be better off than not.

去YouTube上找找看。

Find something on YouTube.

我没有特别固定的推荐。

I don't have, like, a go to.

我通常就随便做点猫牛式、婴儿式、鸽子式这些动作，让身体放松开一点。

I usually just program out little, you know, do some cat cow, do a child's pose, do some pigeon stretch, just to open things up.

我觉得这样特别好。

I think it's great.

是的。

Yeah.

至于励志书籍，我还是让马克来推荐吧。

For inspirational books, I'm gonna leave that to Mark.

他比我读得多。

He's more well read than me.

他有更多时间看书，所以肯定更懂行。

He's had more time to read, so he's gonna have better.

我倒是能读，虽然这一点

I can read, although that

我感觉自己有几本书读不下去，或者我阅读能力不够。

I've got I feel like couple I can't read in reading these responses or I'm these a literate.

是的。

Yeah.

阅读确实是一门技能，尤其是在被录音的情况下。

Reading is a skill for sure, especially when you're being recorded.

我有几本书推荐，可能比技术类的更励志一些，这正好是她问到的一个方面。

I've got a couple of book recommendations that are maybe a little more inspirational than the technical one but that's one thing she's asking about.

我最近读了三本，想跟大家分享一下。

So, I have three that I've read fairly recently.

我最近读的是吉姆·多尼尼的传记，如果听众不太熟悉的话，吉姆·多尼尼是一位美国登山者，横跨了好几代登山者，全球范围内都是顶尖的攀岩和高山探险家。

The one I read the most recently was the Jim Donini biography which for our listeners that might not be familiar, Jim Donini is an American climber who's spanned several generations of climbing really and a very accomplished rock and alpine climber all over the world.

这本书叫《生存并非必然》，写得非常好，故事也很吸引人，我强烈推荐。

So, biography is called Survival is Not Assured and I thought it was quite well written and a really compelling story so I would highly recommend that one.

还有巴里·布兰查德的《召唤》，一位加拿大高山登山家，一生中完成过许多了不起的壮举。

The Barry Blanchard book, The Calling, Canadian alpinist and climber who's really done some impressive sense over his life.

这本书带点自传性质，我觉得特别有启发性。

Was also kind of autobiographical I thought was pretty inspiring.

最后一本是我大约一年前读的，作者是亚历克斯·麦金太尔，他也是一位非常出色的高山登山者。

And then the last one which is an older book I read about a year ago, Alex McIntyre who's also a really accomplished alpinist.

《一天如虎》这本书我觉得非常值得一读。

One Day as a Tiger was a I thought was a totally worthwhile read.

所以，关于登山和高山攀岩类的书，这就是我快速推荐的几本。

So those would be my quick recommendations on the kind of climbing alpinism genre.

是的，玛雅说得对，我在力量训练时根本不会关注心率。

Yeah, I think that Maya was right on with I don't really pay attention to heart rate for strength training.

有些太深入的话题，我们这儿其实没必要展开。

There's a couple of deep rabbit holes we don't really need to go down here.

我偶尔留意一下心率，主要是怕它太高——那通常说明人太急躁，没把力量训练的质量做好。

What little I pay attention to it is almost more to make sure that it's not too high because that's kind of a sign that someone is like rushing around and maybe not getting the quality of strength work they should.

你在健身房里得讲究效率，但这跟慌里慌张地赶工是两回事，后者反而得不到我们想要的那种有效刺激。

You know you need to be efficient in the gym but that's different than rushing and then maybe not getting that kind of quality stimuli that we're looking for.

但我觉得最重要的一点是，我们千万别把这变成有氧运动。

But the biggest point here I think that I like to make is we don't want to turn this into an aerobic workout.

训练的目标是什么，我们就该朝那个方向去。这其实是个深水区，但很多人有个根本性的误解：觉得你要是做高强度的力量训练，跑来跑去把心率拉到130、140，就和在爬楼机上走路一样，生理反应完全相同，所以也有同样的效果。

Want it to be for what the goal is for and I think there's, this is the deep rabbit hole but there's kind of a patent misunderstanding that when if you do some very vigorous strength workout and you are sort of rushing around in the gym, you know, and you can get your heart rate fairly high, you know, your heart rate can be in the 130s or 140s, etc, that that is the same physiologically as walking on the StairMaster, that the same thing is happening physiologically and therefore it is useful.

我觉得问题就出在这儿，我们之所以要衡量强度，本质上是为了了解身体的代谢状态，对吧？

I think that's where people go wrong because one of the big reasons we're trying to measure intensity is we're trying to measure what's going on metabolically, right?

你是主要在燃脂，还是主要在耗糖，或者处于这两者之间的哪个位置——但你的心率相同，做的运动却可能完全不一样。

And whether you're primarily fat burning or primarily carb burning or where you are in that continuum and you can have the same heart rate doing

两种完全不同的情况。

two and different

代谢上根本是两码事，对吧？

be doing something completely different metabolically, right?

开车时要是有人突然急转弯，你心率也会飙升，但那根本算不上有氧运动。

Well, I mean you can have a high heart rate in the car if someone swerving Exactly.

那根本不是有氧效果。

You're not having an aerobic effect.

没错。

It's just Yes.

是的。

Yeah.

情况也是一样。

And that's the same.

而且如果真像你说的那样，我经常半开玩笑地回应：要是真这样，我们干脆在家看恐怖片好了，何必大汗淋漓地训练呢？那样也能变瘦。

Know and if that was the case and my semi smart ass answer to this discussion all the time is you know if that was the case we would just watch scary movies you know on Netflix and we wouldn't bother with all the sweating of training and we would be very fit.

我倒是没听过这种说法。

I haven't heard that one.

对。

Yeah.

我觉得这个说法其实特别容易让人理解：如果你整天只看恐怖片，肯定没法为攀岩、跑步这些活动做好准备。

Well, I think that's a very easy way for someone to understand the concept and that like I think it's easy to understand that if you just watch scary movies all the time, you're not gonna be ready to climb or run or do the things you want to do.

从代谢角度来说，两者完全不一样。

Metabolically, there's something completely different going on.

所以，我想强调的是：别试图把这种训练当成有氧运动，哪怕心率看起来像，它也不是。

So, that's my take home for this question is like don't try and turn this into an aerobic workout because even if the heart rate would indicate that it is, it's not.

这也不是目标。

It's not the goal either.

力量训练的目标不是这个。

Not the It's not the that's the goal of strength training.

至于力量训练或拉伸，我的看法是，如果运动员在健身房里能根据动作需求，完整地控制重量完成全幅度运动，我就觉得没问题。

And then the strength or the stretching regime, one of my sort of takes on this is I think athletes that can in the gym functionally move weights through a full range of motion when the activity calls for that, know, when the specific movement calls for a full range of motion, I'm happy with that.

只要没有特别的问题，比如受伤、恢复障碍或活动受限，其实没必要额外做太多拉伸。

I don't feel like there's a big need for a lot of stretching on top of that as long as you don't have some very specific issues where you're getting injured or you're trying to overcome something or you're limited.

攀岩这种运动确实有特殊需求，灵活性很重要，但我主要训练登山者和超长跑选手，说实话，他们越不灵活，反而表现越好，受伤也越少。

There's very specific niches with rock climbing where flexibility is a premium, things like that but I mostly train mountaineers and ultra runners and almost sometimes the less flexible they are, the more effective and less injury prone they are, I swear.

不过我觉得，活动度和柔韧性是两回事，如果活动度不够，那拉伸就很有必要。

Well, no, and I think there's something to be said for like mobility versus flexibility and if you don't have good mobility, that's where stretching is important.

过度柔韧反而有风险。

Flexibility can be dangerous.

我本人特别柔韧。

I'm super flexible.

效果并不好。

It's not great.

容易受伤。

Have a lot of injuries.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我觉得拉伸或者做活动度训练还是有帮助的。

So, yeah, the stretching or doing mobility, I think, is beneficial.

我发现它对恢复也有帮助。

It can help with recovery too, I found.

对。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

确实如此。

Yeah.

但如果我仔细想想的话。

But if I think yeah.

在健身房里做全幅度的力量训练，我觉得非常有益，是应对这个问题的好方法。

Full full range of motion strength work in the gym, I think is is a huge, benefit and a good way to to kind of tackle that.

明白了。

Okay.

接下来这个问题来自佩德罗，他来自葡萄牙。

So our next question is from Pedro, and he's from Portugal.

我非常喜欢你们的工作、播客，还有你们展现出的同理心。

I love your work, podcast, and empathy you all bring.

我逐渐爱上了超长跑，而你们一直是我这段旅程中的关键，尤其是通过你们的那本书。

I've developed a passion for ultra running, and you've been central to that journey, especially through your book.

我有很多问题想问，以后我一定会在咨询或指导时提出来，但这次我先聚焦一个问题，尽量把它说清楚。

I have many questions I would love to ask, and certainly in the future, I will ask in a consultation or coaching, but for now I'll focus on one and try to solve all.

对于运动员或者有志于成为教练的人，最好的学习方式是什么？

For either an athlete or an aspiring coach, what's the best way to learn about the sport?

对你来说，哪些工具、学校认证或资源是必不可少的？

Which tools, school certifications or resources are essential for you?

应该从哪里开始，又该怎么逐步提升？

Where should one start and progress?

明白了。

Okay.

我会在这部分简单回答一下这个问题。

Well I will answer that in a little just like part of this.

斯科特整理了一份他称之为术语表的资料，放在我们网站上，我知道我们可以在节目笔记里附上链接。

Scott did compile what he I think it's called the glossary on our website and I know we can link to it in the show notes.

那其实是他一生中读过的、对他成长影响最大的那些训练手册的汇总。

That kind of is his training manuals that he's read over his lifetime that have been really influential to his development.

我觉得听这些播客、上Reddit、逛论坛，都是不错的入门途径。

I think listening to these podcasts, getting on Reddit, and going to a forum, all are wonderful places to start.

我们所有的教练，主要都是由斯科特亲自培训的。

All of our coaches have been trained primarily just by Scott.

我们并没有特定的认证。

We don't have a specific certification.

我们的一些教练有。

Some of our coaches do.

他们中有些人也上过学。

Some of them have gone to school as well.

但大多数Evoke教练都是在Scott的指导下接受培训的，要么受他指导，要么曾经直接由他担任教练。

But for the most part, our Evoke coaches have been trained under Scott and, you know, mentored by him or have worked with him as their coach even.

我就是其中之一。

I'm one of those cases.

我们还有一些运动员，或者教练，都曾接受过他的指导。

We have some other athletes who've been coached by him or coaches who've been coached by him.

所以我建议，保持好奇心，尽可能多读书。

So I would say the best advice is stay curious, try to read as much as you can.

听起来你已经读过那些书了，这很好。

It sounds like you've read the books, which is great.

是的，我觉得在咨询时和教练聊聊也很有帮助，但 definitely 要先看看术语表。

Yeah, I think talking to a coach is a good idea as well in a consultation, but check out the glossary for sure.

如果你还没看过，那是很好的起点。

It's a great place to start if you haven't already.

马克，你是怎么学会当教练的？

Mark, how did you learn to be a coach?

对。

Yeah.

关于这个话题，术语表里已经涵盖了我的所有想法。

I don't don't have anything to add to that conversation that's not included in that glossary.

当然。

Would Yeah.

没错。

For sure.

其实我还没把那些资料里的每个细节都仔细看过。

And I actually haven't combed through every detail of all those resources in there.

你还没啊？

You haven't?

没有。

No.

真的吗？

Really?

我也没。

I've not.

但我觉得这确实是个很好的起点。

But I think that's a really good place to start for sure.

好的。

Alright.

我们再讲两个。

Let's do two more.

第14期，感谢这个播客。

14, appreciate the podcast.

有些教练在参考资料里会提到以最大摄氧量为核心的训练方式。

The question is some coaches in reference material point towards or reference material point towards VO2 max style.

比如上坡间歇，每次一到三分钟，做六组，每组三分钟。

One to three minute uphill intervals, six by three minutes for instance.

你们很少提到这种训练，偶尔会做三十秒快慢交替，但更强调十秒的短坡冲刺。

You all don't mention much like this, maybe thirty-30s at times, but have emphasized ten second hill sprints.

这两种方式各自有什么优势和好处？

What are the pros and benefits?

短间歇和长间歇的优缺点分别是什么？临近比赛时，为山地超马训练该优先选哪种？

Pros, benefits and cons of short intervals versus long ones and what's best to prioritize for mountain ultras as you get close to race day?

你是想先说，还是我来开个头？

Do you want to wait in this first or do you want me to?

好啊。

Sure.

我来谈谈吧。

I can talk about it.

是的。

Yeah.

你来说吧。

Go for it.

我们确实会用传统的VO2最大值间歇训练。

We do use traditional VO2 max dial intervals for sure.

这种训练方式也有它的适用场景。

And there's a time and place for that.

我们之前的很多讨论和训练方法都集中在有氧基础建设上，因为这个概念在过去被严重误解了。现在，肌肉耐力和抗疲劳能力也同样重要，各有其位置。

I think a lot of our just conversation and methodology has been focused around aerobic base building because that was so misunderstood in this world, and now muscular endurance and fatigue resistance, they all have a place.

我觉得短间歇训练的一个问题是，有时候只是变得特别累，却缺乏明确的训练目标。

I would say the downside to those shorter intervals is sometimes they just become really hard work without a lot of specific purpose.

它们往往会造成全身性的极大疲劳。

They have a really high global fatigue effect a lot of the time.

就像斯科特说的，这种训练只是教你如何咬牙坚持、拼命发力，但未必能让你跑得更快。

And it's just, as Scott says, it's teaching you how to be tough and work hard, but it's not necessarily making you fast.

所以除非有特别明确的目的，否则我一般不会在训练前期就加入这些内容。

So unless it's really specific, I usually don't introduce them until late into a training build.

我比较喜欢用在一些登山者身上，我知道他们要去高海拔地区，呼吸会非常吃力。

I like using them for some of my mountaineers who I know are going to high altitude and they're going to be breathing really hard.

我想让他们提前做好准备。

I want them to be prepared for that.

对于我的跑步者，我可能会在爬坡或者平地冲刺时穿插一些这类训练。

For my runners, maybe I'll work some of that in on hill work or flat fast running.

但我很少会毫无目的地安排这种间歇训练，因为我觉得，通过更科学地安排有氧基础训练和短距离速度训练，不仅能获得更好的效果，还能降低受伤和过度疲劳的风险，比如做肌肉耐力训练或者30秒/30秒的间歇，这种其实更接近乳酸阈值训练，而不是像4x4或3x4那种纯粹拼极限的高强度训练。

But very rarely do I just like mindlessly program, you know, that type of interval without there being a pretty specific purpose because I think you can get more out of training even your aerobic base and doing speed work, shorter speed work with less risk of injury and fatigue or doing something like muscular endurance or doing thirty-30s, which I would argue is can be that kind of it's more of like that threshold work than that really hard max effort of those like 4x4, 3x4.

所以并不是我们完全不用。

So it's not that we don't do it.

这类训练在训练文献里被强调得太多了。

Those have been emphasized a lot in training literature.

我觉得Scott是个很有创意的思考者，所以他并没有花太多精力去向别人推广这种训练方式。

I think Scott's an out of the box thinker, so it's not something he's put a ton of time and energy into educating people on.

我不太确定，马克，你觉得怎么样？

I don't know, Mark, what do you think about that?

我确实会安排很多间歇训练，总时长大约在十五到三十分钟之间，比如

Yeah I program a lot of interval work with let's say the total accumulated time being between fifteen and thirty minutes you know so

四乘四分钟

four by four

短的就这样，长的可能是三乘十分钟，或者类似的安排。

at the short end and you know three by ten minutes at the long end or something like that.

我特别喜欢用三乘十分钟的间歇训练。

I love a three by ten minute interval for something.

没错。

Yeah.

非常好。

Great.

无论是跑步者还是登山者，我都会用这种方式。

And that's both with my runners and my mountaineers.

我觉得你刚才提到的这一点，对登山者来说特别关键，尤其是在高海拔环境下，呼吸需求远远超过在二区训练时的水平。

I do think what you mentioned there briefly is a huge point with mountaineers with altitude related goals is there's a really big respiratory demand at altitude that greatly outstrips what you see in training in zone two work.

所以，你得为这种情况做好准备，原因有很多。

So, you need to be ready for that for a variety of reasons.

因此，我觉得让这些人进行一些高强度的呼吸训练非常有用，尤其是空负重的4分钟×4组、5分钟×5组，对登山者特别有帮助，虽然从某种角度看，这并不完全贴合他们的专项需求。

And so, just some good old fashioned really hard breathing I think is really useful for those folks and yeah mostly unladen yeah 4x4 minute, 5x5 minute I think is really useful for those mountaineers even though in some ways it's not the most sport specific.

但从这个角度来说，确实如此。

It is in that way.

我觉得关键是

Think that's

但确实如此。

But it is.

我跟我的登山者说，我们主要是在锻炼你的肺功能。

I mean, I tell my mountaineers, I'm like, We're just training your lungs more than anything.

我们已经通过耐力训练让你的腿部足够强壮了。

Like we've done muscular endurance to make your legs strong.

我们还做了有氧训练，就是为了打牢基础，让你能一天接一天地恢复。

We've done aerobic training to just make sure you have a base and you can recover day after day.

这样你才能在不跑快的情况下，依然能大口喘气。

This is so you can breathe hard because you're not moving fast.

对。

Yeah.

而且我觉得这背后还有心理层面的因素——如果一个人从来没练过这些，一上山，心率才130左右，但已经喘得不行了，他很容易陷入恐慌，因为他完全不适应这种状态。

And I also think there's a mental component to that too like if somebody hasn't done any of that work and they get on the mountain and their heart rate is still only whatever 130 and they're breathing out of their line, they can get into a headspace that's really not helpful because they're not used to that.

所以你得习惯这种大口喘气的感觉。

So, you want to be used to breathing hard.

我觉得这一点特别关键。

I think that's a super important point.

至于他们问的爬坡冲刺和三个十分钟间歇的利弊，我觉得这两者本质上是完全不同的训练，不只是时长长短的区别。

And kind of to their question a little bit, the pros and cons of let's say like hill sprints versus three by ten minutes or something like that, I functionally think of those as completely different things not just ones long and one short.

对跑者来说，我觉得爬坡冲刺其实挺有用的，尤其是针对那种恢复需求比较小的情况。

For runners, I actually think that hill sprints are quite useful for what little, for the relatively small recovery demand.

非常棒的力量训练。

Fantastic power work.

这是引入力量训练最安全的方式之一。

One of safest ways to introduce power work.

对。

Yeah.

当这对跑者来说是重点时，我会几乎一直把这当作背景训练，不管当周其他间歇训练怎么安排。

So, you know, when that's a priority for runners, I'll kinda have that running in the background all the time almost independent of what an interval structure might be alongside that in a weekly session.

我觉得这两种方式完全可以并存。

Think there's plenty of room for both those.

如果你这样处理的话，但我有时会把爬坡冲刺当作一周中的一次力量训练日。

If you treat it this way, but I sometimes treat hill sprints as one of the strength days in a week.

对。

Yeah.

然后我会在同一天做核心和上肢训练。

And then I'll do like core and upper body on the same day with that.

这样就很清楚了，这一天就是力量与爆发力训练日。

And that's a good way to be like, okay, this is a strength power day.

间歇训练则安排在另外一天。

Intervals are a separate day.

对。

Yep.

好，我们再聊一个，这个可就完全是玛雅的专长了，跟我关系不大。

Alright, let's do one more and this is gonna be firmly in Maya's wheelhouse and not mine.

我有个问题想问问这个播客的听众。

I have a question for the podcast.

在越野滑雪中，上半身有哪些适合提升肌肉耐力的训练动作？

What would be some good muscular endurance exercises for the upper body in cross country skiing?

在健身房里，高位下拉适合用来练最大力量，但用Concept2划船机即使把阻力调到最大，感觉还是太偏向有氧了。

In the gym, cable pull downs seem most suitable as max strength while Concept two ERG feels too aerobic even with full resistance set for the fan.

户外的话，或许可以试试双杖推拉，或者单杖支撑在坡道上用轮滑 Ski 做几分钟的练习。

Outside, perhaps double pulling or single sticking on roller skis for a few minutes at a time uphill.

这是来自斯科特的提问。

This is from Scott.

问得好，斯科特。

Great question, Scott.

让我想想。

Let's see.

没错，这些建议都很好。

Yeah, these are all great.

你提了很多不错的点子，我们可以把这些全都用上，设计一套肌肉耐力训练。

You have a lot of good ideas here, and we can use all of these to do a muscular endurance workout.

我滑雪的时候，会站着用拉力器做下拉动作。

When I skied, I would use the cable pull down machine standing.

有时候我们甚至穿着攀岩安全带，身体前倾，做类似我们网站上推荐的那种训练——比如六组，每组十次，组间休息很短，然后再配一个下肢训练。

At times, even we did it with a climbing harness on so I could lean forward and we would do something similar to the muscular endurance you'd find on our website, like six by 10 reps with pretty short rest to kind of and then do maybe a lower body exercise.

你一定要站着做这个动作。

You should definitely do this standing.

非常适合提升最大力量，但你也可以用它来做肌耐力训练。

Great for max strength, but you can definitely do this with muscular endurance.

滑雪本身也可以有氧。

The ski also, it can be aerobic.

我通常会做三十秒双杖、三十秒单杖这样的组合，时间可以再拉长一点。

I usually would do this like thirty, thirty is a good example or thirty seconds double pull, thirty seconds single stick, make it longer.

但说到上半身的肌耐力训练，我有个建议，我知道你说的是谁，所以直接告诉你。

But the biggest thing I would do for muscular endurance upper body is if you go, and I know who this person is, so I'll give you the tip.

去那个吊桥附近的坡道，我们会在那儿戴负重背心做双杖冲刺，还有单杖攀爬的重复训练。

Go to near the suspension bridge on that dip, and we would do weight vest double pole repeats on there and single sticking repeats up that hill.

具体时间我记不太清了，大概四十五秒到一分钟，然后休息，再重复。

And I don't remember exactly how long, I think it was forty five seconds to a minute, and then rest and repeat.

我们也会不拿杖做，专门练下半身的肌耐力。

We would also do that without poles for lower body muscular endurance.

你也可以在雪地里做，比如找一条很长的坡，做蹬踏动作，一直穿着负重背心，这种训练能很好地提升耐力。

You could do this in the snow too, like go up a really long hill, do spur, something like that, and you just keep that weight vest on and you can get a lot of endurance from that workout.