与蕾切尔·韦恩兹深入交流

我觉得这非常有趣。

I think it's it's so interesting.

比如，我觉得身份和身份政治。

Like, I feel like identity and identity politics.

它已经变成了社会中一个巨大的话题。

And it's been this it's become this huge thing in society.

根据我在历史课上学到的内容，过去如果你是男性和男性发生性关系，那只是一种你做过的事情。

And I feel like in the past, from what I've learned in my classes in history, like having sex, if you're a man and you have sex with a man, that's just something that you did.

那时那并不构成你的身份。

Like, that's not like your identity then.

或者像其他行为一样，后来发生了一种转变，你的整个人被等同于你的行为，而不再仅仅是一种让你感到愉悦的行为，这样说你能明白吗？

Or like if you did something else like it, it there was like this shift where it was then your person was your actions were instead of just like an action that felt good, if that makes sense.

不。

No.

是的，完全正确。

Yeah, absolutely.

自古以来，人们就一直在做各种奇怪的性事。

People have been doing weird sex shit since the beginning of time.

我觉得我不确定是从什么时候开始，我们对这些事的管控变得像现在这么严格。

And I feel like I don't know when we started policing it so like so as much as we currently do.

但我知道，这他妈的太蠢了。

But I do know that, like, it's fucking stupid.

每个人只是想获得高潮。

Like, everyone's just trying to get an orgasm.

每个人只是想爽一下。

Everyone's just trying to get off.

只要你不伤害任何人，和谁做有什么关系？

Who cares who you're doing it with as long as you're not hurting anyone?

只要双方自愿，就应该没问题。

As long as it's consensual, like, it should be fine.

是的。

Yeah.

麦肯娜和我，麦肯娜，你看完《道德冲突》这本书了吗？

McKenna and I have McKenna, did you finish Moral Combat yet?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所以我们俩都读了这本书，叫《道德冲突》，它主要从天主教，以及多个宗教团体如何影响社会议题的角度进行分析。

So we both read this book called Moral Combat, which basically looks at social issues from how especially Catholicism, but, like, multiple religious groups have impacted them.

我经常从性的角度来思考这些问题。

And I think a lot about that in the in the frame of sexuality.

我们在第一个播客里谈过关于贞洁和纯洁的概念，以及这些观念如何影响我们早期对自我的认知。

We talked in our first podcast about like the concept of virginity and like purity and how all of that can impact how we view ourselves early on.

我的意思是，这甚至会影响你的一生，但有时确实会发生一种重新认知的过程。

And I mean, honestly throughout your life, but sometimes there is unlearning that happens.

但这本书对我而言非常有启发性，即使像我这样强烈支持堕胎权的人，也会意识到我们用来描述某些事物的框架，其实往往源自教会所使用的术语，而我们甚至没意识到这一点。

But that book was really eye opening for me and even like as someone who is really passionate about abortion access, like the frame that we put honestly, the religious frames that we put on things that we don't even realize are coming from the terminology that the church would use to describe something.

这极大地改变了我的许多观点，甚至包括对避孕的看法。

That's really shifted a lot of my views or like even on birth control.

我们有一整集讨论了避孕以及人们使用避孕措施的经历，但人们之所以不敢说出这些经历，是因为社会给它们附加了太多层压力。

And we had a whole episode talking about birth control and people's experiences with birth control, but how much fear there was around voicing that because of all these layers that society adds onto them.

是的。

Yeah.

我成长过程中感受到的许多性羞耻感，都与宗教密切相关。

A lot of my a lot of the sexual shame that I felt growing up was very much tied into religious or or to religion.

抱歉。

Sorry.

我从小在天主教环境中长大，我认为自己不再认同为天主教徒或任何宗教信徒的主要原因，就是教会——尤其是天主教会——会让人因为简单地表达自我而感到极度压抑和羞耻。

I was raised very Catholic and I think a lot of the reason why I no longer identify as a person who's Catholic or religious at all is because of how restrictive and how shameful I think the church, the Catholic church specifically can make people feel for simply expressing who they are.

这些说法我一直觉得不对劲。

I never really sat right with me.

所以，是的。

So yeah.

我不，嗯。

I don't yeah.

而且就这一点上。

And that on that.

而且就是这一点上。

And that's that on that.

我只是想提一下，我知道，现在性已成为你工作的一部分，你也非常公开地谈论心理健康和你自己的心理健康。

I just was gonna touch on I know, obviously, now that sexuality has been part is part of your job is your job, you also are super vocal about mental health and your own mental health.

这两者之间的交集是怎样的？我的意思是，很多人可能会觉得，哦，这是完全不同的两件事，但其实不是，因为它们都是你的一部分。

And how is that intersection kind of I mean, I think a lots of people would be like, oh, they're totally different things, but they're not because they're both you.

那么，这两者在你的生活中是如何相互影响的呢？

And so how does that kind of interact in your life?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我确切地知道，你的心理健康绝对会影响你体验性的方式，比如，我的室友兼联合主持人阿里尔，她的心理健康就会影响她与他人发生性关系时达到高潮的能力。

So I mean, mean, I know for a fact, like your mental health absolutely can affect the way that you are experiencing sex, whether like, you know, my roommate and co host Ariel, for example, her mental health gets in the way of her ability to orgasm with other people.

这是她性高潮的一部分。

It's part of her an orgasm.

对我来说，提高对心理健康的认知并公开谈论我自己的心理体验，主要是为了像对待性一样使其正常化。

For me, I think mental health awareness and being vocal about my own experience with mental health is mostly a way to normalize it similarly to sex.

我认为有很多人因为抑郁、焦虑或其他问题而感到羞耻。

I think that there are so many people who are made to feel ashamed for, you know, being depressed or anxious or whatever.

但这是我和世界互动的核心部分。

But it's a core part of how I interact with the world.

它决定了我与人的互动方式。

It's it dictates my interaction with people.

它影响着我的决策。

It influences my decision making.

我觉得我之所以在社交媒体上如此积极地谈论这一点，部分原因是因为社交媒体太虚假了。

And I feel like part of the reason I work so hard to be so vocal about it on social media is because social media is so fake.

你怎么这么说？

How you say so?

我只是想确保没有人觉得看一眼Instagram页面就能轻易断定某个人生活美满，事实上，我们很少能一直完美无缺，或时刻经历美好的事情。

I like to just like make sure that no one like it's so easy to look at an Instagram page and be like oh this person is thriving and the fact of the matter is just like we're not like so very so very rarely is everyone perfect all of the time or experiencing amazing things all of the time.

所以，如果我能说，嘿，你知道，我有身体畸形恐惧症，我有严重的焦虑和抑郁，有时候连起床都特别困难。

And so if I can if I can like be like, hey, you know, like I struggle with body dysmorphia or I struggle with mad anxiety and mad depression and like sometimes it's fucking hard for me to get out of bed.

然后有人看到后会想，哦，但她依然在成功地做事，她也经历这些，也许这能让他们在经历类似心理困扰时感觉好受一点。

And then someone also looks and is like, oh, but she's still doing things successfully and she experiences this and it maybe it'll make them feel less shitty if they're going through those same mental health struggles.

我觉得自己挺幸运的，因为目前我的心理健康状况和我体验、享受性生活的能力并没有紧密交织在一起。

I feel pretty lucky in the sense that like, my mental health and my ability to experience and enjoy sex right now are not so conflated.

我想这是因为我和伴侣在一起很久了，我对这段关系感到非常安心，他对我来说就像一块坚实的基石。

I think because I've been in a relationship for so long and I feel very like secure in that relationship and he is very much like a rock for me.

我觉得和他在一起，是我一生中为数不多能真正把自己从世界中抽离出来的时刻。

I feel like with him is one of the very few times in my life experience that I'm able to kind of separate myself from the world.

和他在一起时，我会彻底断开所有联系，这很罕见，也很美好，他让我仿佛超脱了自我，虽然这么说有点恶心。

Like I totally log off when I'm with him, which is rare and beautiful and like he makes me just kind of like transcend, which is I'm so disgusting.

你知道，我深爱着他，但你继续说吧。

You know, I'm so in love, but keep going.

但说实话，我和他在性方面非常合拍，和他在一起时，我的心理健康不会受到影响。

But like I genuinely like he he and I sexually speaking like we are so compatible that like I don't I don't like it doesn't get in the way of my mental health when I'm with him.

这并不是说我不有时候像个疯子。

That's not to say I'm not like a fucking psycho sometimes.

而且我们确实会吵架，诸如此类的事情。

And like, we definitely fight and all that shit.

但这些并不会影响我的性生活或心理健康。

But like, it doesn't impact my my sex, my mental health.

谢天谢地。

Thank God.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

是的。

I yeah.

不，我觉得亨特很棒。

No, I think Hunter's great.

我去年夏天和他一起工作，感觉我们总是值同样的夜班。

I worked with him my last summer, and I feel like we were always on the same night duties duties.

这基本上就是夜班。

It's basically a night duty.

就像在夏令营一样，你白天工作，然后他们还让你继续干。

It's like at camp where you work all day and then they get you to work more.

这真的很狡猾。

It's really sneaky.

这真的很棒。

That's really cool.

我觉得我喜欢和他聊天，因为有时候和别人聊天，你知道他们心里想着别的事。

And I think I, like, liked talking to him because it was sometimes, like, when you talk to people, you know that they're thinking about other things.

但和他聊天时，完全不是这样，他真的在认真思考我刚说的话。

But with him, it was like, no, he's just thinking very intensely about what I just said.

是的。

Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

他非常感激这一点。

He is Great appreciation for it.

这真的太搞笑了。

It's it's so funny.

因为我自己特别在线，感觉就像个Instagram女友，而他是离线男友。

He because I'm I'm extremely online and I feel very much like Instagram girlfriend girlfriend and off the grid boyfriend.

比如，他根本不上社交媒体。

Like when I he's like he's very much not on social media.

我想他有一个账号，因为他也做播客，还搞艺术，想开始推广一下。

I think he has one because he does a podcast as well and he like does art and he wants to start like promoting that.

但他是我认识的为数不多的、能在今天这个世界上完全不看手机看完一部电影的人之一。

But he is one of the only people in like today's world that I know who is, like, fully able to, like, watch a whole movie without looking at his phone.

对我来说，这简直是一种超能力。

To me, that is, like, a superpower.

他让我感到无比踏实和专注。

And he just makes me feel so grounded and so present.

他真的是最好的。

He's really the best.

所以

So

我想简单提一下。

I wanted to touch on just really quick.

我觉得这是一个重要的观点，我经常提到，可能大家都听腻了。

I think it's an important point to make, and I make this point all the time that everyone's probably tired of me saying it.

但当我们像你这样去探讨一些议题，比如心理健康、性取向，或者所有这些话题，甚至宗教，我在灵性领域也经常谈到这个，因为我觉得自己并不属于灵性圈，而且我从小也没有接受宗教教育。

But when we kind of tackle issues like you're tackling, even just approaching the topic of mental health or sexuality or all these things or even religion, I talk about this a lot in the spirituality space because I don't feel like I fit into the spirituality space and I was not raised religious.

所以我对很多方面都有意见。

So I have a lot of issues with a lot of them.

而这些话题通常不被认为是值得谈论的‘性感’话题。

And those kind of things are not seen as sexy to talk about.

人们不会被他们吸引，因为这些人说的不是他们想听的——他们所处的体系正在崩溃。

They're not people don't gravitate towards them because they're not what they want to hear that the systems that they are part of are crumbling.

我认为这真的很重要。

And it's just really important, I think.

我真的很想指出，当你拥有一个平台，既能做这种有趣的事情，又能融入这些重要的议题时。

And I really want to just recognize that when you have a platform where you're able to do kind of this fun stuff here and you're also integrating the important things to talk about.

这意义重大。

That's huge.

我认为并不是每个人都在这样做。

And I don't think everyone is doing that.

我认为人们有责任去做这件事。

And I think people have the responsibility to do that.

但我并没有经常看到这种情况发生。

I just don't see it all all the time happening.

所以我只是觉得这真的很重要。

So I just think that is really important.

我很高兴你在做这件事。

I'm really glad you're doing it.

谢谢。

Thank you.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，想想这样的事情。

I mean, think stuff like that.

就像我们谈到我们的朋友阿里尔是犹太人时。

It's like when we talk about our so Ariel's Jewish.

我从小是天主教徒，我们在播客里经常谈论宗教，因为宗教和性取向并不是好朋友，但彼此非常了解。

I was raised Catholic and we talk about religion on the podcast a lot because religion and sexuality are not best friends, but they know each other very well.

而且它们很难分开。

And they're very hard to separate.

而且我们当然开很多玩笑。

And we obviously make a lot of jokes.

她和我，我觉得我们都有一种相当自由且黑色的幽默感，这种幽默感实际上可能源于一些并不完全符合政治正确标准的东西。

She and I both, I would say, have like a pretty liberal and dark sense of humor that stems from honestly, maybe even something that is not quite as PC as what it should be.

我们开过几个关于血祭诽谤的玩笑。

We made a couple like blood libel jokes.

我们开玩笑说，觉得每个人都应该不停地做流产，或者类似的东西。

We joke that we think everyone should be getting abortions all the time or, you know, just like whatever.

当然，我们大多数时候都是在夸张，因为这样才好笑。

Obviously exaggerating most of the time because that's funny to do.

结果有几个人真的生气了。

And we had a couple of people like just be upset.

他们说，你们真的不该拿杀害基督教婴儿这种事来开玩笑。

They were like, you know, you really shouldn't be like joking about sacrificing Christian babies.

我们回应说，我们根本不是真的要去杀婴儿。

And we were like, we're not actually to kill the babies.

我的意思是

Like it's

好的，对吧？

fine, right?

是的，我当时觉得这个播客是我的全职工作，然后我们晚上还会开一些会议。

Yeah, I was like this is my the podcast is my day job and then we have like these meetings at night.

就是说

Just like

对，而且这。

right and it's.

而且就是，你知道的，总会有人感到被冒犯。

And it's just like, you know, people are always gonna be offended.

像我这样的人其实也很纠结，因为我喜欢让每个人都开心，不想冒犯任何人。

People like this is something that's hard for me too because I like making everybody happy and I don't want to offend anyone.

但与此同时，我有很多观点，喜欢拿一些禁忌话题开玩笑，比如宗教、性之类的东西。

But at the same time, I have so many opinions and I like to make jokes about things that are, you know, taboo topics like religion or sex or whatever.

刚开始发生这件事的时候，我们的制片人米歇尔说，我们给她发了消息。

And it's I think when it first happened, our producer Michelle was like, we we like messaged her.

我们当时想，天啊，人们对我们很不满。

We were like, my god, people are upset with us.

她却说，谁在乎啊？

And she was like, who the fuck cares?

她说，你肯定会惹怒一些人。

She was like, you're gonna make people angry.

你触及的人越多，就越会有人感到不满。

Like, more people you reach, the more people are gonna be upset.

即使话题是禁忌或敏感的，这其实也是一种风险评估：与其什么都不说，不如让别人能自在地做自己，哪怕收到一些恶评。

And like, even if the topics are taboo or difficult, like again, it's just like a risk analysis of like better to make people feel comfortable in their own skin and like receive a little hate mail than like not say anything at all.

而且这其实也是一个机会，最近我就遇到过几次，有人直接来批评我的作品，说我错了、我邪恶之类的，但一年前，我肯定会哭出来。

And also it's an opportunity like I think this has happened to me a little bit recently of people just coming at my work and being like you're wrong or you're evil or like these things and and like a year ago, I would have been bawling.

我通常会请假休息一整天，然后向他们道歉。

I usually like take the rest of the day off Like I would apologize to them.

但现在我发现，更有力的做法是说：你做你的。

And now I've just found it so much more powerful to be like, you do you.

我真的完全不在乎你怎么想，因为我找到了内心那份平静与认知。

Like I actually really do not care at all what you think because I found like that own sense of peace and knowledge within myself.

所以我认为，当你在从事一些正在改变文化的事情时，从这个角度出发非常有力量。

So I think that's a really powerful place to move from and especially when you're doing something that is like shifting culture.

我经常和马尔和拉拉聊这个话题。

I talked to Mal and Lara about this all the time.

当你改变文化时，人们肯定会生气，但说实话，有时候这反而是个好迹象。

Like when you shift culture, people are gonna be pissed and like honestly, sometimes that's a good sign.

是的。

Yeah.

等等。

Wait.

好的。

Okay.

那你具体是怎么对待你的精神信仰的？

So what do you do specifically with your spirituality?

所以，说我是个通灵者可能是最贴切的描述了。

So I'm like a psychic medium would be the best kind of descriptive.

好的。

Okay.

不错。

Cool.

是的。

Yeah.

人们会因为你给了他们不好的消息而生气。

People get like upset with you because you give them like bad.

不。

No.

不。

No.

不。

No.

就像互联网上的陌生人会说，

Like strangers on the Internet being like,

哦，好吧。

oh, okay.

我们认为你是错的。

We think you're wrong.

我的通灵师从古至今一直存在。

That It's like, Well, which is in my psychic mediums have been around since the beginning of time.

所以我觉得你是错的。

So I think you're wrong.

好吧。

Alright.

或者，你完全可以保持自己的意见，不发表评论。

Or also, it's just like, it's free to keep your opinion to yourself.

你坐在这里，看完了我的整个视频，然后才选择评论，就这样，好了，再见。

Like, you sat here, you watched my whole video and then you chose to comment something and just like, okay, bye.

没错。

That's right.

就是这样。

That's

我本来想说，这种二元对立太有趣了，因为麦肯娜制作了那些精美的多部分TikTok视频，谈论她的一些精彩想法。

I was just gonna say, I think the dichotomy is so funny because McKenna makes these beautiful TikToks like multiple part, like talking about some amazing thought that she's had.

然后评论区就会有人说：不对。

And then a comment will be like, no.

就像，好吧。

Like, okay.

或者，你错了。

Or like, you're wrong.

真是让人惊叹，有创意。

It's like, wow, creative.

干得漂亮。

Good job.

走吧，别在这儿了。

Like, move along.

大家总是热衷于拥有不同的观点，直到这些观点与自己的立场相悖。

Everyone's always so into having different opinions until they're like in opposition to their own.

然后就变成：对你来说是这样，但对我就不是。

And then it's like, so for you then, for you but not for me.

我明白了。

I see how it is.

你们真是太好了。

That's super nice of you guys.

我一直在想，今天我们的读书会读了《超越性别二元论》，这本书讲的是性别不止有两种选择。

I was thinking, so today we had our book club and we read Beyond the Gender Binary for it, which is about how there's more than two options for gender.

自从那以后，我一直在反思，性取向中的许多概念其实限制了我们。

And I just have been really reflecting on it since that so many of the concepts inside of sexuality, like, limit us.

它们让我们觉得，只有一种方式才是对的。

Like, they make us feel like there's only one way to be.

这不仅适用于你的性别认同，也适用于你的性取向。

And and that can be in your gender identity, but also just in your sexual orientation.

比如，这些不同的领域，如果我们能拓展它们，允许自己以任何感觉合适的方式表达自己。

Like, all of these different areas, like, the more that we expand them and allow our allow ourselves to be expressed in whatever way feels right.

这才是最终目标。

Like, that's the end goal.

我知道这会挑战很多社会规范，有时甚至包括资本主义和各种层面。

Like, it doesn't and I get it like that challenges a lot of societal norms and capitalism sometimes and different layers.

但我一直在反思，我们是不是因为试图迎合社会里这些线性的框架而束缚了自己？

But I've just been reflecting on, like, are we just holding ourselves back by trying to fit into these, like, linear boxes in society?

有没有更好的方式？

Like, is there a better way?

一定有更好的方式。

Like, there has to be a better way.

对吧？

Right?

不。

No.

当然。

Absolutely.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，换个角度想想。

I mean, think about it this way.

想象一下，如果你上大学时，有人跟你说：好吧，你只有两个选择。

Think of, like, if you went to college and someone was like, okay, you have two options.

你要么当医生，要么当会计。

You're to be a doctor or you're to be an accountant.

我想我们都会觉得非常不满足。

I think we'd all feel pretty unfucking fulfilled.

简直没人想当会计，而且

It's like fucking no one wants to be an accountant and

像是哦，除非是

like Oh, unless it's

像是那种会计，你懂的

like the accountant, like wink wink type of

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

那个会计。

The accountant.

什么？

What?

但没错。

But yeah.

不。

No.

抱歉。

Sorry.

这就像一种流行文化现象。

This is like a pop culture

你不上TikTok吗？

Are you not on TikTok?

我在流行文化方面远远落后于劳拉和麦肯娜。

I'm I'm like so far behind Laura and McKenna on the pop culture things.

我要花三个月才能跟上她们的进度，所以我一直落在后面。

It takes me like three months to catch up on where they are at, so I'm just perpetually behind.

那么这个‘ wink wink ’会计师是怎么回事？

So what is this wink wink accountant thing?

这其实是一种有趣的方式：如果你有OnlyFans或者做任何类型的私密服务，你就会说‘哦，我是个会计师’，因为没人会追问，毕竟没人想知道会计师到底做什么。

It's just like a funny way that for if you're like if you have an OnlyVans or if you do any sort of sessions, you're like, oh, I'm an accountant and no one asks questions because no one wants to know what accountants do.

反正你也不真的关心。

Like, you don't really care.

嗯，这真的很有趣又聪明。

That's See, that's really funny and clever.

我喜欢这个。

I love that.

是的。

Yeah.

我会去了解一下。

I'll look into that.

我同意。

I agree.

这就像关于性、性取向、性别这些事情。

It's like things about sex, sexuality, gender, the whole thing.

你做的每一个决定现在都像是在表明某种政治或道德立场，而这可能并不是你的本意。

Any decision that you make is now like it's like emblematic of like a political or moral stance that you're taking, which isn't maybe what you're trying to do.

通过深入了解你的Instagram，我真的很欣赏，你真的很擅长写作。

Upon, you know, a deep stock of your Instagram, which I really enjoyed, you are really good at writing.

我觉得，写书一直是你生活中非常重要的一部分，还有我们喜欢的那种古老的语言。

Like, I feel like it's always been a huge part of your life writing books, the old language that we like.

那你认为呢？

So what do think?

劳拉，你是不是中风了？

Laura, are you Are you having a stroke?

我有点紧张。

I'm nervous.

我也有点。

I am a little bit.

我没事。

I'm fine.

但我只是想问问，你有没有在写那本书？

But I wanted to know, you know, are you writing the book?

我们什么时候能读到你的书？

When can we read your book?

是的。

Yeah.

所以，我谢谢你。

So I I am thank you.

首先，

First of

你真是太贴心了。

all, it's very sweet of you.

所以我已经是个长期读者了。

So I've I've been a long time reader.

如果你看过我的Instagram账号，很可能注意到它曾长期是一个图书分享账号。

If you saw my Instagram account, you likely noticed that it was a bookstagram for a very long time.

嗯。

Mhmm.

当我硕士毕业后搬到纽约时，我曾在出版业短暂工作过，但后来意识到我不想去从事与书籍相关的工作。

And when I moved to New York after my master's program, I worked in publishing for a small bit of time before I realized that I didn't want to work with books.

我想写书，但那样做却拿这么低的薪水，还被如此轻视，实在不值得。

I wanted to write them, and it like wasn't really worth it to be so grossly underpaid and undervalued.

出版业这个行当太糟糕了，改天我可以单独聊聊这个话题。

Publishing as an industry is terrible, and I can go on a separate rant about that a different time.

但是的，我正在写一本书。

But yeah, I'm I'm working on a book.

我要说，过去两三个月我忙得不可开交，因为我很幸运地接到了很多额外的自由职业工作，这很好，因为现在我的收入比以往任何时候都高。

I will say, like, I've been mad busy the last two, three months because I've been fortunate to find a lot of extra freelancing work, which is nice because I have more money right now than I've ever had.

但同时，我也觉得我目前正在牺牲自己的创造力。

But also, like, I do feel like I'm currently compromising my creative side.

所以这周我即将搬家，搬进一个新公寓，挺让人开心的。

So I'm actually moving this week and into a new apartment, which is fun.

等我安顿下来后，我的目标就是重新开始写书，希望今年夏天能完成，这样我就可以把它推荐给两家出版社了。

And then once I'm done with that, like my goal is to start working on my book again, which my hopefully, I will have finished by this summer so that I can start shopping it around two different agents.

所以为我祈祷吧。

So fingers crossed for me.

我觉得，你知道的，美好的祝愿都是很珍贵的。

I think, you know, well wishes are appreciated.

但谢谢你。

But thank you.

你们真是太贴心了。

You guys are so sweet.

这太令人兴奋了。

That is so exciting.

是的。

Yeah.

那就像我从小的梦想——成为一名作家。

That's like that's like my child dream is to be an author.

那是一本什么样的书？

What kind of book is it?

真正让我着迷的是魔幻现实主义类的小说。

So the kind of books that really tickle my pickle are magical realism books.

所以就是文学小说中带点魔法元素，为世界增添一些趣味。

So like literary fiction with bits of magic to just kind of spice up the world.

一个非常好的例子是作家海伦·奥耶米，她写了大量这类文学童话故事。

So a really fantastic example of this is the author Helen Oeyemi, who writes all of these literary fairy tales.

她真的非常有才华。

And she's just so talented.

她太酷了，太酷了，太酷了。

She's so so so cool.

她还这么年轻。

She's so young.

我真嫉妒她。

I hate her.

那种根植于现实世界的、充满魔力的叙事风格，非常对我的胃口。

And like that sort of narrative tell storytelling that is just like magic rooted in the real world is like very much my my vibe.

我太喜欢了。

So I love that.

希望这件事能发生。

Hopefully that will happen.

这可能是我在这个星球上问你的最糟糕的问题。

This may be like the worst question to ask you on the whole planet.

但你有特别喜欢的书吗？

But do you have like a favorite book?

你最喜欢的颜色是什么？

What's your favorite color?

我没有。

I don't

我会给出一个答案，因为我觉得这比说‘我没有最喜欢的一本书’要容易些。

I'll give an answer just because I think it's easier than being like, I don't have a favorite book.

这正是我预料到的，因为我觉得你是个爱读书的人。

And that's what I was expecting because I was like, you're a book person.

我觉得。

I feel like.

但不，我很喜欢你想到这个。

But no, I love that you have come up with something.

不。

No.

所以这本书

So the book

我推荐给每个人的书叫《永生者》，作者是乔莉·本杰明。

that I recommend to everyone is called The Immortalists and it's by Chloe Benjamin.

她真的太有才华了。

And she is so fucking talented.

她确实如此。

She does.

她写的是文学性的科幻作品。

She writes like literary science fiction.

她有两本书，《梦境解剖》非常非常棒，但稍微更抽象一些。

And so she has two books, The Anatomy of Dreams, which is really, really cool, but a bit more heady.

然后她写了《不朽者》，讲述四个孩子——一个家庭的四个成员——在书的开头几章中，每个人都被告知了自己将会死去的那一天。

And then she has The Immortalists, which follows four kids, four members of a family who in the first, like, chapters are each told the day that they're going to die.

接着，你会看到他们的故事如何展开，随着他们逐渐接近各自的死亡之日。

And then you see their, like, stories play out as they approach their death days.

这非常有趣，而更深层的讨论是关于：我们究竟是否有自由意志，还是所有事情都是注定的？

And it's super interesting and the the larger conversation is about, you know, do we have free will or is everything predetermined?

这是一部对这一理念极其美妙的探索。

And it's just like a really beautiful exploration of that idea.

她太有才华了。

She's so talented.

所以我也不是，是的。

So I am not yeah.

我太兴奋了。

I'm so excited.

永远在谈论自由意志。

Forever talking about free will.

不。

No.

这是一本非常棒的书。

It's it's it's a fantastic book.

我强烈推荐。

I highly recommend it.

它叫《不朽者》。

It's called The Immortalist.

去看看吧。

So check it out.

那你以前是和阿莉尔住在一起，还是现在不住了？

So you did live with Ariel or you aren't going to anymore?

她现在在这里。

So she's here currently.

我们现在住在一起。

We currently live together.

在我身后，你可以看到我的箱子。

And then behind me you can see my boxes.

我开始打包了，因为我要在周二搬家。

I started to pack because I move on Tuesday.

但她

But she

过去两年半时间里，她们一直被关在监狱里。

had been inmates for the last two and a half years.

我想说

I want to say

我只是，我只是觉得我想

I just I I think I want

想知道更多关于作为室友和商业伙伴在一起是什么感觉，尤其是在一个

to know more about like what it's like to be roommates and business partners in a pretty

只是室友，最好的朋友。

only roommates like best friends.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

而且还是最好的朋友。

And best friends.

就是上面说的全部。

Like, all all of the above.

我认为我们三个人，拉拉、肯、马尔，都不得不学会彼此坦诚地分享我们的感受和不安全感，因为我们现在不仅仅是最好的朋友，还要一起经营这份事业，这有时会带来压力，或者我们会因为某个想法产生分歧，或者出现一些冲突。

I think that all all three of us, Lara, Ken, Mal, we are really we've had to learn how to be very open about, like, our feelings and insecurities with each other because of the fact that now we're, like, not just best friends, but we're also trying to, like, do this business together, which sometimes, like, things will get stressful or we'll have disagreements about a certain idea or, you know, something will come up where there's conflict.

就我个人而言，我一直在挣扎于这样一种想法。

And for me personally, it's like I struggle with sort of this idea.

就像是一种‘冒名顶替综合症’，关于自己是否值得被喜欢，这样说你能理解吗？

Like, it's like an impostor syndrome for, like, being a likable person, if that makes sense.

我觉得自己像个冒牌的最好的朋友。

Like, I feel like I'm an impostor best friend.

我只是想知道，如果我越界了，你是否不想再和我聊天了，因为我总是带着一种恐惧，担心自己是不是又做过了头。

Like, I just need to know if you like, I've gone over the line and you would like to no longer talk to me anymore because it's like, I am always operating from, like, that fear of, like, oh my god, I just overstepped it.

他们会因为我和他们在这个问题上意见不同而讨厌我，但其实根本不会这样。

Like, they're gonna hate me now because I disagreed with them about this thing, which is not ever the case.

但因为我们对这些感受都很坦诚，所以我知道自己需要在这里得到肯定，或者在那里给予肯定。

But because we're open about those sorts of feelings, it's like, I know that I need to get reassurance here or I need to reassure there.

你和Ariel之间的这种沟通方式是怎样的？

Like, what is that sort of communication been like with Ariel?

我觉得她和我之间非常坦诚。

It's been like, I will say that she and I are very open.

就像你说的，当你既是最好的朋友、生意伙伴，又是室友时，你必须做到这一点。

Just as you said, you absolutely have to be when you are best friends and business partners and roommates.

她和我总是开玩笑说，我们就像一枚硬币的两面，我们的核心本质非常相似。

She and I always joke that we are like two sides of the same coin and that we are very, very similar and like our core beings.

我们都太焦虑了。

We're both so fucking anxious.

我们太敏感了。

We're so sensitive.

我们有着互补的童年创伤，我们就这样称呼它，因为她父母离异。

We have like complimentary childhood traumas we like to call it because she's like a child of divorce.

而我则是那种总是违背父母期望的人。

But like I'm someone who's like I was you know constantly going against the grain of what my parents wanted.

我以一种不同的方式让他们失望，我们的核心特质中有太多相似之处，也有太多完全不同的地方。我认为，尤其是在疫情期间开始这段关系，让一切变得更加困难，我们经历了太多的过度暴露，不得不进行一些坦诚到令人不舒服的对话——这些对话我们俩都不太喜欢，但每次谈完后，我们都会感觉彼此的友谊更加牢固、更好。

It's like I was a disappointment in a different way and there are so many things about our core beings that are so similar and there are so many things about our core beings that are entirely different And I think especially starting this during a pandemic made it way more difficult and there was a lot of overexposure and she and I had to be had to have like some frankly uncomfortable conversations that I don't think either of us particularly enjoyed, but we always come away from them feeling stronger and better as a friend like as friends.

我觉得我懂你。

And I think that like I feel you.

我总是从‘他们其实讨厌我，根本不想和我做朋友’的角度来评估友谊，只是我待得太久，他们只是因为方便才留下来。

I'm I'm constantly evaluating friendships from the point of like they secretly hate me and they don't actually want to be friends with me, but I've like stuck around for too long and so they're like going to stay because it's more convenient.

她和我最大的共识就是始终保持开放的沟通。

And she and I like our big thing is like we always keep an open line of communication.

即使我们的工作方式不同——我不算特别有条理，但肯定比她更有条理。

And even if we have separate work styles like I'm not I'm not like so organized, but I'm definitely more organized than she is.

我是个对美学极度执着的人，而她显然更随性，但她总是有着非凡的创意直觉。

And I am a slave to like aesthetics and she's definitely more chaotic, but she's also like got this great creative instinct all the time.

所以我特别喜欢在创意想法上听从她的建议。

So like I love deferring to her for like those creative ideas.

她对如何做事有着极好的直觉，而我在细节上可能更注重严谨。

She has such a good gut instinct for how to do things, whereas I may be a little bit more meticulous when it comes to details.

对我们来说，这不仅是发现彼此的优势如何互补，更是发现彼此的不足如何被对方弥补。

And it's, you know, for us, I think it's been finding how our not just how our strengths complement each other, but how our weaknesses can be strengthened by the other person.

这完全是一个成长的过程。

And that's fully just a growing experience.

我觉得我们一直在不断探索，让这段关系变得更好。

And I feel like we are constantly trying to figure out new ways for it to be as best as it can be.

这真的很困难，因为你不想给自己施加不必要的压力，要求自己时刻完美。

And like it's so hard because you don't want to put this undue pressure on yourself to be perfect all the time.

但当然，每个人都希望一切尽善尽美。

But of course, do because everyone wants everything to be perfect.

但这太不切实际了。

But it's just unreasonable.

我觉得在疫情期间我们学到了一课，尤其是那时候我们整天都腻在一起，完全就是她和我24小时待一块儿——因为有一阵子我们的第三个室友搬走了，我们不得不坐下来好好谈一谈，说：我们需要空间。

And I think that was a that was like a learning lesson during COVID, especially because we were like on each other's assholes all day long, just like fully she and I 20 together because there was a point when our third roommate left and we had to like sit down and talk about it be like, need to get we need to get space.

这也是我们决定搬去各自住处的原因之一，因为这种状态并不健康。

It's part of why we're moving into our own places where like this is not a healthy thing to maintain.

我们不可能时时刻刻满足对方的一切需求，所以我们打算搬出去。

We cannot be everything for each other all the time, so we'll be like moving out.

但我认为这是最好的选择，而且随着我们渐渐长大，独自生活也让我感到兴奋。

But it's I think it's for the best and also just like we're getting a little older and it feels like exciting to be living on my own.

是的，这回答了你全部的问题吗？

And yeah, does that answer the full question?

我真是个啰里啰唆的人。

I'm such a fucking rambler.

哦，这话说得不错。

Oh, that was good.

我感觉被理解了，因为我的大脑每天都在说服我，我所爱的人都讨厌我。

I feel so seen because my brain convinces me every single day that everyone I love hates me.

这真是太有趣了。

It's so fun.

为什么？

Why?

我们为什么会这样？

Why do we do that?

我不知道。

I don't know.

这太糟糕了。

It's the worst.

我

I

上个周末我和朋友们喝醉了，但没有失去意识。

got drunk with my friends the other weekend and I didn't black out.

你知道吗，喝醉后第二天早上醒来，你记得一切，但又不确定到底发生了什么，结果你给所有朋友发了消息，说‘嘿，只是关心一下，我们还是朋友吗？’他们回你：‘是的，老兄。’

You know when you get drunk and you like wake up the next morning and you're like I remember everything but like what happened and I like texted all my friends and I was like hey just checking in like are we still friends And they're like, yeah, bitch.

你就是让我们看了些简单计划乐队那些老掉牙的YouTube视频。

Like all you did was like make us watch old YouTube videos from like simple plan videos.

所以没关系。

So it's fine.

对。

Yeah.

我想稍微转回谈点关于性的话题。

I'd love to gear or like switch back to sex stuff for a moment.

我觉得关于色情内容，可能不是每个人，尤其是我们的听众，因为咱们不常聊性话题，都了解色情产业究竟是怎么运作的。

I think regarding porn, I'm not sure if everyone and especially kind of our listeners since we don't always talk about sexuality are aware of kind of how the porn industry works.

我特别希望你能简单讲讲，为什么伦理色情很重要，以及为什么你选择与Valesa合作，他们的理念和宗旨为何与你一致。

And I would love if you could just touch on why ethical porn is important and why that's kind of why you chose to partner with Valesa and why their messaging and purpose is aligned with yours.

对。

Yeah.

很高兴你问了这个问题。

So I'm glad you asked.

我喜欢有机会推广Valesa。

I love when I can plug Valesa.

Valesa是一家伦理色情公司，我不知道你们有没有关注或了解过关于Pornhub发生的事情。

Valesa is an ethical porn company and I think I don't know how much you guys have followed up on or read up on like what was happening with Pornhub.

他们的网站上删除了数百万段视频，总计大约一千万条，原因各不相同。

They had a bunch of videos like millions and millions, I think 10,000,000 in total were deleted from their site for one reason or another.

当我们讨论色情内容时，情况会变得非常复杂，因为有许多宗教团体试图贬低色情，让它显得邪恶、可怕，甚至各种负面形象。

And I think that when we discuss porn, it gets really tricky because there's a bunch of religious groups who are trying to decredit porn and make it seem like it's bad and terrible and like all these different things.

尽管如此，如果你打算消费色情内容，还是有更合适、更符合伦理的渠道。

And while it is not, there are better places to be getting your porn if you want to be consuming it ethically.

所以像Valesa这样的平台之所以优秀，就在于他们做了其他公司没有做的事，以确保性工作者的安全与满意度。

So for places like Blesa, why it's so great to, you know, invest in your porn and to invest in ethical porn is because they are doing things that other companies aren't to ensure the safety and the satisfaction of their sex workers.

Valesa就像是色情界的Netflix。

So Bless is kind of like the Netflix of porn.

你可以随意支付你想要的费用来获得月度订阅，而当你观看Blesa时，你所看到的视频都是他们协助制作的。

You can pay what you want to get, you know, your monthly subscription and what you know you're getting or you what you know you're watching when you're watching Bless is porn is, you know, videos that they are helping to create.

因此，他们可以拥有一份自己想合作的人员名单。

So they get to have like a list of people that they want to work with.

他们还有一份不想合作的黑名单。

They have their no list people they don't wanna work with.

他们得到了公平的报酬。

They're getting paid fairly.

当你为色情内容付费时，这就像不购买快时尚产品一样——我知道我支付的劳动成本没有剥削儿童。

When you're paying for your porn, it's kinda like the same thing as like, you know, make it's the same thing as like not buying fast fashion where it's like, I know that I'm paying for labor that's not exploiting children.

我认为用这种方式来思考色情内容也非常恰当。

I think that's a really great way to think about it for porn, too.

这意味着你付费是为了确保人们能获得应得的份额，并且在对他们有利的条件下工作。

It's like you're paying to make sure that you know that people are getting their fair cut and they're doing it in conditions that are good for them.

对我来说，最重要的是，我承认自己有时还是会去Pornhub，因为那里太方便了，但最好还是支持那些真正善待员工的平台，确保你享受的内容也尊重其从业人员。

I think that's like the big thing for me is like I'm definitely guilty still of like going to Pornhub sometimes because it's just easy, but it is better to just invest in it and make sure that the thing that you are enjoying is also treating its employee like its employees well.

这说得通吗？

Does that make sense?

还是我？

Or do I?

但是啊，我的意思是，我超级喜欢色情内容，有时候说出来还觉得愧疚，因为即使现在，做性话题播客时，我还是觉得人们不想知道我看了什么，但其实我们每晚都看那么多色情内容，大家就该坦率地谈论它、喜欢它、享受它。

But yeah, I mean, I fucking love porn and I feel bad sometimes saying it because like I still think there's like a stigma even now, even doing a sex podcast where it's like, don't want people to know what I'm watching, but like how much porn fucking every night and we should all just be talking about it and like loving it and doing it.

如果你不喜欢，那也没关系。

And if you don't like it, that's also fine.

但总之，去看色情内容吧，享受它，并且知道你观看的那些人也在享受其中。

But yeah, like watch porn, enjoy it, and know that the people who you're watching are enjoying it too.

我对色情内容有很多感受，但大多数都是中立的。

I have a lot of feelings about porn and most of them are neutral.

但不。

But no.

我只是经常想到色情内容，尤其是在回忆我早期的性经历时，是的。

I just I think about porn a lot in the sense of my early sex experiences and yeah.

哈哈。

LOL.

但我的所有早期伴侣，我从未看过色情片。

But how all of my early partners I hadn't ever watched porn.

我的意思是，我甚至不知道自慰这回事。

I mean, let alone I didn't know masturbating was a thing.

所以，你知道，当我进入这些性关系时，和我发生关系的伴侣们主要通过看色情片来了解他们认为性体验应该是什么样子的。

So, you know, I went into these sexual encounters and the partners that I was sleeping with had only really watched porn to get the information on, like, what they thought the experience should be like.

你知道，如果你看看 Pornhub，它显然并不以女性和女性的愉悦为中心。

You know, if you look around Pornhub, like, it definitely is not centering women and women's pleasure generally.

这就是为什么，你知道，我们最终会看女同性恋色情片。

And and that's why, you know, we end up watching lesbian porn.

但我经常思考，我认为色情片本身并没有什么错，但我确实好奇，我们该如何更好地教育人们关于它，以及一些偏见如何导致人们无法表达自己的需求，因为他们误以为色情片就是现实。

But I think a lot about how like, I don't think that there is anything inherently wrong with porn, but I do wonder, like, how we can educate more on it and, like, how some of, like, the biases can end up leading people to not communicate their needs because they assume that porn is reality.

甚至我跟我的伴侣聊过这个，拿自己和实际的性生活与看的色情片做比较，然后觉得自己不够好。

Even just like I've talked to my partner about this, comparing yourself and the sex you're having to the porn you're watching and just feeling like you're not enough.

我只是觉得，关于这一点，还有很多教育工作需要去做。

I just feel like there's so much education around it that needs to happen too.

我同意。

I agree.

我觉得你提到的很多内容都非常有道理，很多人都有这种感受，比如我知道很多人，他们的第一次性经历完全是基于他们在色情片里看到的内容。

I think a lot of what you're touching on is so valid and I think a lot of people feel this way where it's like, I know a ton of people, for example, who based their, like, first sexual experiences off of what they had seen in porn.

毫不意外，他们的性体验非常糟糕，因为色情片并不等于好的性爱。

And no shocking surprise, they had terrible sex because porn isn't necessarily good sex.

它只是某种高度性化、过度刺激的极端例子。

It's just kind of like the hyper sexualized, overstimulated, whatever example of it.

我认为，当我们谈论色情片和性教育时，关键在于，如果我们在学校里接受了正确的性教育，就不必去色情片里寻找这些知识。

And I think the important thing when we're talking about porn and when we're talking about the sex education is that if we were just taught sex education in school properly, we wouldn't have to go to places like porn to get it.

而且，我甚至不确定。

And like, I'm not even sure.

我认为色情片并不应该承担教育人们的责任。

I don't think I I don't believe that it's porn's responsibility to be educating people.

就像我不会去看一部漫威电影，然后回家就说我是超级英雄，因为这根本不是我们消费媒体的方式。

Same way like I'm not gonna go watch like a Marvel movie and then go home and be like, I'm a superhero because that's just not how like we consume media.

但我们对待色情内容的方式就是这样。

But that is how we're treating porn.

我们看了之后就会想，我应该这么做。

We're watching and then we're like, I should do that.

这才是应该做的正确方式。

That's how you're supposed to do it.

但如果我们真正了解性是什么样子，一个很好的例子是，我最近为了播客读了几项研究，发现我们关于性所做的研究和性教育所关注的，大约有90%都是负面效果。

But if we all actually knew what sex look like or a good example of this is I recently for the podcast was reading a couple of studies and I found that something like 90% of the research that we do on sex and that we focus our sex education on is on the negative effects of it.

无论是性传播感染还是怀孕，这几乎占了我们教育内容的90%。

So whether it's STIs or pregnancy, that is like 90% of our education.

我们从不谈论愉悦，甚至不解释生殖器是什么、有什么功能、长什么样、应该如何正常运作。

And we don't talk about pleasure or even just general explanation of what genitals are and what they do and what they look like and how they're supposed to be like behaving.

如果我们能改变学校里谈论性的方式，不仅讲负面，也讲正面的内容，我们就不会需要依赖色情内容来学习了。

And if we were to just change the way that we're talking about sex in schools to include the good stuff, not just the bad stuff, we wouldn't need to look to porn to teach us.

这难道不会好得多吗？

And wouldn't that just be so much fucking better?

因为，我不需要莱莉·里德来教我怎么，你知道的，口交。

Because, like, I don't need Riley Reid to teach me how to, like, you know, give a blowjob.

明白吗？

Okay?

但我的老师本该教我的。

But my teachers should have.

是的。

Yeah.

我想，性教育的根本问题就在于，我在公立学校接受的性教育太差了，结果只能靠朋友或互联网来了解这些。

I I guess I feel like that's at the root of sex education is that because I had such bad sex education in my public school, I was left then to learn about it from my friends or from the Internet.

所以是在让盲人去引导盲人。

So blinding the blind out there.

没错。

Exactly.

我完全同意色情内容不应该承担教育我们的责任，但问题是，我们需要想办法建立一些系统，来教授我们这些不同的知识，因为现在根本没人做这件事。

I totally agree that porn should not be should not have the responsibility of educating us, but it's almost like, okay, well then we need to figure out systems in which that will educate us about all of these different topics because that's not happening.

想象一下，如果我们公立学校开始以中立甚至正面的角度教授关于色情的内容，人们会有多震惊。

Imagine how much people would freak out if our public school system started, you know, teaching about porn in school, like, a neutral or even positive perspective.

所有人都会炸毛的。

Like, everyone will lose their shit.

这就是我一直在想的问题：我们到底该怎么办？

And that's kind of where I'm just like, what do we do?

我的意思是

Well, I mean

暗示一下嘛。

Just hint hint.

那样的话，女性就会拥有太多权力，而我们害怕这种局面。

Like, that would give women too much power and we're scared of that.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，我看到过一些内容，基本上是说，为了给学生提供有效的性教育，我们应该从幼儿园就开始，只是先教一些基础的东西，比如这个身体部位叫什么。

I mean, I saw I saw something that was basically like, in order to have like effective sex ed for students, we should start as early as kindergarten and just and just start with the basic things like this is what that body part is.

这是什么时候感觉不对，这是当某些事情发生时是不合适的。

This is what a good this is like this is when it's like not Okay to be experiencing something.

而这是什么时候是合适的。

And this is when it is Okay.

好的接触，坏的接触。

Good touch, bad touch.

没错。

Exactly.

这种教育方式有助于减少儿童遭受性侵和虐待的情况。

And that kind of teaching could help decrease the amount of like, you know, molestations, abuses that are happening to kids.

同时也能增强我们对LGBTQ学生的包容感。

And it will help increase, you know, our sense of welcoming to LGBTQ students.

就是这种类似的事情。

And it's just like that kind of shit.

这种事应该更早就开始，因为我觉得我开始了解这些的时候已经太晚了。

That kind of shit should be way earlier because, like, I don't I think I started learning about it.

我记得四年级时上过一节计划生育课，内容是说，当你准备好要孩子时才可以发生性行为。

I think I had like a family planning class in the fourth grade that was like, when you're ready to have a baby, you have sex.

在此之前，你不可以有性行为。

And until then, you don't have sex.

如果你有性行为，你就会死。

And if you do have sex, you'll die.

当时就是这种氛围。

And like, that was the vibe.

我曾在荷兰留学，那里的性教育是世界顶尖的。

I studied abroad in The Netherlands and their their sex education is like the top rank in the world.

所以我在那里上了一门性教育课，专门研究他们是怎么做的。

And so I took a sex ed class there that kind of looked at how they do it.

我记得最有趣的一点是，荷兰根本不存在性高潮差距。

I remember the most interesting fact is they don't really have an orgasm gap in The Netherlands.

这真的不是什么？

It's really not a What?

是的。

Yeah.

我确信这其中仍然存在一些不平等。

I'm sure that there's still some inequities in that.

但只要我们改变性教育的教授方式，像双方都能达到高潮这样简单的事情，

But just the fact that if we change the way that we teach sex education, something as simple as both partners orgasm orgasming.

几乎就会消失。

Like, literally almost disappear.

这对我来说太不可思议了。

That was so wild to me.

因为当我们教人们性行为只是为了创造新生命时——这正是我们教学生的方式——我们实际上是在教他们，性行为以男性射精为终点。

Because when we're teaching people that sex is all about the creation of another human life, which is how we are teaching our, like, students, then we're teaching them that sex ends with ejaculation for the man only.

所以，这就算完成了整个过程。

So, like, that's the completion of a cycle.

然后我就想，那我算什么？

And then it's like, well, where do I fit in?

我什么时候才能高潮？

When do I get to orgasm?

你不会。

You don't.

根据我的教育体系，不会。

According to my education system, don't.

这太无礼了。

And that's so rude.

你真好。

Good you.

你有高潮，你有高潮，然后你也有高潮。

An orgasm for you and orgasm for you and then for you.

但接着，Coco，抱歉。

But then Coco, sorry.

我想我们也在读书会里讨论过这一点。

I think even we just talked about this too in Book Club.

即使只是从一个中立的角度来看，这些事本来就是我一直在做的，而且我一个人住。

Like even just approaching it from a neutral standpoint of these things just are one of the things I've been doing and I live by myself.

所以当你一个人住的时候，或许可以试试我三月份一直在做的事：每天赤裸一小时，就像在家里做平常做的事一样，这真的很难，因为我没有以应有的方式与自己的身体建立联系。

So maybe you should try it when you move by yourself is I've been doing these during the month of March and I'm gonna keep doing them as forever is spending an hour naked a day just like in my house doing things that I would normally do and it's been so difficult because I don't I'm not in contact with my body in the way that I should be.

我觉得部分原因是我小时候就不是这样的。

And I think part of that is because as a kid, I wasn't.

而我

And I

这种观念从很早就开始了，比如，这些事本来就是这样，随着我们长大，我们可以去爱和欣赏它们。

think that starts so early of like, okay, these things just are and then as we grow up, like, we can love and appreciate them.

但总会有那么一些日子，我们不会这样。

But on days that like there's going to be days that we don't.

我们能不能对它保持一种中立的态度？

Can we just find neutrality with it?

哦，我喜欢这个。

Oh, I love that.

我应该也开始这么做。

I should start doing that.

我很多时候还是对自己的身体感到非常不自在，大概是因为我的身体畸形障碍。

I still feel very uncomfortable in my own body a lot of the time, probably because of my body dysmorphia.

但我知道我的室友阿里埃尔，她赤身裸体时感觉完全自在。

But like, I know Arielle, my roommate will like feels like totally comfortable naked.

我觉得对有些人来说，他们的妈妈、姐妹或其他家人可能会在浴室里赤身裸体，或者类似的情况。

And I think for some people like they had, you know, their moms or sisters or whoever would like go to like bathrooms naked or like whatever.

但对我来说，我这辈子从未赤身裸体走过任何地方。

But it was like for me, I was never, ever someone who walked around naked ever in my entire life.

我只是知道有些人天生就对这件事更自在。

And I just know people who are at baseline way more comfortable with that.

我总是想，你怎么能这么随意地赤身露体，暴露在环境中呢？这看起来很危险，也很不舒服，但我确实应该试试。

I'm always like, but how you're just like out and like free and and like exposed to the elements like that seems dangerous and it seems very unenjoyable, but I I should try.

那么，你平时做些什么活动呢？

Well, like what kind of activities do you do?

你喜欢瑜伽或者做饭吗？

Do you like yoga or like cooking?

做饭好像挺危险的。

Cooking seems unsafe.

我有时候也会做饭。

Sometimes I cook.

通常来说

Normally like

如果我能在一天中抽出时间，通常我会先做晨练，然后接着做。

if it's just like if whenever I fit in my day, like normally I do like my morning workout and I'll do it after that.

我当时就想，我真的希望你别在锻炼。

I was like, I I really hope you're not working out.

那样活动量太大了。

It'd be too much movement.

太痛苦了。

It's so painful.

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

我完全同意。

I totally agree.

而且说实话，这帮助很大。

And honestly, it's helped a lot.

像身体畸形障碍真是个该死的难题，压力太大了。

Like body dysmorphia is a fucking bitch and it's so heavy.

我经常跟马拉马说。

I would tell like Malamar all the time.

我就说，我不知道我的身体长什么样。

Was like, I do not know what my body looks like.

就是，我不知道。

Like, I don't know.

我不知道自己会穿多大码的裤子。

I could I don't know what size pants I'm gonna fit into.

我没法准确判断，有时候挑的衣服大了两个码。

I can't look at something and sometimes I pick something and it's like two sizes too big.

有时候挑的衣服又小了两个码。

And sometimes I pick something and it's two sizes too small.

我真的完全没概念。

I'm like, I literally have no fucking clue.

我觉得这在一定程度上带来了些冲击感。

And I think that this is helping like the shock value a little bit.

比如我照镜子的时候，会说天啊。

Like where I look in the mirror and I'm like, oh god.

我只能忍受看自己十秒钟左右。

Like I can only tolerate looking at myself for like ten seconds.