当生活支离破碎时如何应对：重塑信念，平静心灵，停止反复思虑，自信前行：玛雅·尚卡尔博士 #635

我从医学院毕业后搬回了英格兰西北部，帮助妈妈和弟弟照顾爸爸。

I I moved back to the Northwest Of England after medical school to help my mom and my brother look after my dad.

他当时患有严重的狼疮，并且出现了肾衰竭。

He was super unwell with lupus, he had kidney failure.

因此，在十五年里，我们的整个生活都围绕着爸爸和他的护理展开。

And so for fifteen years, our whole lives were around dad and his care.

我想我过去也深受控制幻觉偏见的影响。

And I think that I also used to suffer from the illusion of control bias.

也许现在我仍然在某种程度上有这种倾向，但当时如果爸爸生病了，我一定会想尽一切办法解决问题。

So maybe I do a little bit to a degree now, but I think in a big way, if dad was ever sick during that time, I would by hook or by crook sort the situation out.

我会直接进到他的病房里。

I'd get in his hospital.

如果他没有得到应有的治疗，我就会联系主治医生。

If he wasn't getting the right care, I'd get ahold of the consultant.

我想我当时坚信，只要我足够想要，就一定能解决一切。

I guess I had that belief that if I want it enough, I can sort it.

是的。

Yes.

而当然，他突然去世了，我这才被迫面对这样一个想法：哦，你其实并不能掌控一切，对吧？

Whereas of course, he died, suddenly I'm confronted with this idea that, oh, you kind of can't control everything, right?

所以我认为，当我父亲去世时，我对这种幻觉的信念彻底破灭了。

So I think my belief in that illusion was shattered when my dad died.

一旦这种信念破灭，我认为我就更容易以一种稍微不同的方式看待变化了。

And once it's shattered, I think it then gets easier to start to look at change in a slightly different way.

那么，为什么我要对你说，我父亲的离世在我看来是一种礼物呢？

And, you know, why do I say to you that my dad's death, I see it as a gift?

因为我从中学到的关于自己的事情、我成为的这个人、我如今的职业，我认为如果我父亲还活着，这些都不会发生。

It's because the things I've learnt about myself, the person who I've become, the career I have today, I don't think any of those things would have happened if my dad was still alive.

这并不意味着我不爱我的父亲，也不意味着我不希望他还在人世。

It doesn't mean I don't love my dad, it doesn't mean I don't wish my dad was still here.

是的。

Yes.

我确实这么认为。

I do.

同时，我选择相信，这就是信念的特别之处。

And at the same time, I have chosen to believe, and that's the thing about beliefs.

我并不要求别人也这么相信，是我自己选择了相信，你知道吗？

I'm not asking anyone else to believe that, I have chosen to believe that actually, you know what?

在很多方面，这是我父亲给予我的一份礼物，它帮助我继续前行，应对这种变化。

That's in many ways a gift that my father gave to me, and that helps me move on with my life and navigate that change.

所以，玛雅，我刚才说了不少，嗯，我只是想，某种程度上听听你的看法。

So I said quite a few things there, Maya, and yeah, I was just trying to, I guess, in some ways get your take on that

因为，是的，完全同意。

because Yeah, absolutely.

这就是变化。

That is change.

我认为这确实呼应了书中的一些观点，即变化——你还记得开头怎么说的吗？

And I think that really does speak to some of these ideas in the book that that change, you know, what did you say right at the start?

你说过，当突如其来的变化发生在我们身上时，它能激发我们内心持久的改变。

You said, you know, when an unexpected change happens to us, it can inspire lasting change within us.

这正是我父亲去世后发生在我身上的事。

Well, that's what's happened through my dad's death.

是的。

Yeah.

非常感谢你分享这些。

Thank you so much for sharing that.

这是一段非常美好的反思。

It's a deeply beautiful reflection.

我认为这体现了《变化的另一面》的核心论点，即我们与生活中事件的关系是一个持续的对话。

And I think it speaks to the overarching thesis of the other side of change, which is that our relationship to the events in our lives is an ongoing dialogue.

这是一个持续的交流。

It's an ongoing discussion.

它并非一成不变。

It is not fixed in stone.

我认为自从你父亲去世后，你已经看到了这种变化在你自己身上发生。

And I think you have seen that progression happen within yourself since your dad's death.

对吧？

Right?

它所代表的象征意义、它赋予的含义，以及你对这段经历的情感认知，都已经发生了巨大的转变。

The symbolism, the meaning it's taken on, the way that you think about the experience emotionally has shifted dramatically.

我认为我写这本书的目标，就是展示这种微小的视角转变所蕴含的力量。

And I think my goal when writing this book was to show the power of even these small shifts in perspective.

让我稍微回溯一下。

So let me rewind a little bit.

我提到过，多年来我一直为无法组建家庭而挣扎。

I mentioned that I struggled for years and years with the challenge of not starting a family.

在我感到绝望和沮丧的时刻，脑海中总会反复回响一句话，这句话我从别人那里听到，也在社交媒体上看到，我知道它根植于古老的智慧。

And in my moments of despair frustration, there was this mantra that would kind of play in my head that I would hear from people and I would see on social media and that I knew was rooted in ancient wisdom.

但对我来说，这句话却显得空洞无力。

But for me, it rung hollow.

这个观点是，虽然我们无法改变发生在我们身上的事，但我们可以改变自己对这些事的反应。

It's the idea that while we can't change what happens to us, we can change how we respond to what happens.

它的本意是给人力量。

It is meant to be empowering.

但在我当时的状态下，在我心理脆弱的时候，我完全不知道该如何真正实践这种智慧和指引。

But in my state, in my compromised mental state, I had no idea how to actually execute on this wisdom, on this guidance.

我的大脑里并没有一个开关，只要一翻就能立刻让我感到更平静、更充满希望、更开悟，或对未来的可能性充满期待。

It's not like there's a switch in my brain that I could just flip on that would suddenly make me feel more peaceful or more hopeful or more enlightened or more filled with a sense of possibility about what the future might hold.

因此，我迫切希望有一本指南，一张路线图，一些具体的策略，能帮助我真正改变对生活中这些变化的看法和感受。

And so I desperately wanted to have a manual of sorts, a road map, some concrete strategies that I could use to actually feel and think differently about the changes that had happened in my life.

这就是我真正写下这本书的原因。

And so that is why I actually wrote this book.

这本书源于我内心深处的需求——我想以不同的方式思考和感受生命中的重大变化，却不知道该怎么做。

It came from a deeply personal need to want to think and feel differently about the big changes in my life, but to not know how.

因此，我写下这本书，是为那些此刻正深陷变化之中的人们。

And so I have written this book for people who are not just in the throes of change right now.

但对于像你这样的拉甘，或许正试图改变与过去事件的关系，以不同的视角看待它。

But for people like you Rangan, who are maybe looking to change their relationship with a past event to see it differently.

同时也对未来的改变感到焦虑，正努力重新建立与改变的关系，以便从中发掘可能蕴含的意义或可能性。

And also who are anxious about a future change, are trying to renew their relationship with change altogether so that they can try and extract whatever meaning or possibility might lie within it.

于是我踏上了一段旅程，寻找全球范围内最非凡的改变故事，但更重要的是，寻找那些蕴含普适教训的故事。

And so I went on this journey to find the most exceptional stories of change that I could worldwide, but importantly, to find stories that had a universal lesson that lay within them.

因此，我想谈谈你之前在对话中提到的一点，我深有共鸣——尽管这本书涵盖的主题如此广泛，你依然在其中找到了个人的共鸣。

So one of the things I love that you shared earlier on in this conversation that I wanted to comment on is that you found resonance in the you found personal resonance in the stories in this book, despite the fact that they cover so much terrain, so much ground.

这些故事的多样性非常丰富。

There's such a diverse set of stories.

我猜想，我的那些主人公所经历的许多具体情境，你可能并未亲身经历过。

And I imagine that many of the actual experiences that my subjects went through are not experiences that you have gone through.

这正是我想在这本书中传达的另一个重要启示：我们常常被他人和社会教导，在压力时刻，要去寻找那些经历与自己相似的人。

And that was another really important lesson I wanted to capture in this book, which is that we are often instructed by others and by society to look for people in moments of stress, who have gone through experiences that look like our own.

比如，有人告诉你：‘你正在经历离婚。’

So for example, oh, you're going through a divorce.

哦，我有个朋友经历过离婚，你应该去和他们聊聊。

Oh, I have a friend who went through a divorce, you should talk to them.

哦，你正在经历失去？

Oh, you're navigating a loss?

哦，去书店的哀悼类书籍专区看看吧。

Oh, go to the bereaved section of the bookstore.

哦，你正在应对疾病？

Oh, you're you're navigating an illness.

哦，这里有其他正在经历疾病的人组成的互助小组。

Oh, here's a support group of other people who are going through illness.

确实，你可以从那些经历与你相似的人身上获得洞见。

It is absolutely true that you can extract insight from those whose stories look like yours.

但作为一名认知科学家，我的观点是我们拥有共同的心理机制。

But my argument as a cognitive scientist is that we all have a shared psychology.

变化的本质实际上非常相似，无论我们正在应对的具体情况是什么。

The stuff of change actually looks quite similar, irrespective of the specifics of what we're navigating.

我们常常对世界的不公感到愤愤不平。

We often are bristling at the unfairness of the world.

我们正在为再也无法回到的过去而哀悼。

We're grieving a past that is no longer available to us.

我们对自己的身份以及在这个新世界中能成为怎样的人感到焦虑。

We're anxious about our self identities and who we can be in this new world.

也许我们心怀怨恨。

Maybe we're resentful.

也许我们难以原谅某人。

Maybe we're struggling to forgive someone.

既然改变的核心内容是相似的，那么你可以想象，解决方法也应该是相似的。

And so if the stuff of change is similar, then you can imagine that the solution set is going to be similar too.

对吧？

Right?

问题陈述，解决方案。

Problem statement, solution set.

所以我记得，当我采访一位癌症患者时，第一次有了这个领悟。这位女士发现她已故的丈夫长达数十年一直有外遇，她这才意识到，天啊，他们俩都在经历着深深的背叛感。

And so I remember having this insight first when I was interviewing a cancer patient and a woman who found out that her late husband had had a decades long affair and was realizing, Oh my gosh, they're both navigating this deep feeling of betrayal.

因此，他们的故事之间有着比人们想象中更多的共同点。

And so there was so much more that connected their stories than people might have thought.

这深深触动了我。

And so it touches me deeply.

作为一位作者，我想说，当你告诉我，你在每一个故事中都找到了共鸣，对吧？

I just wanted to say as an author, when you tell me that you found resonance in each of the stories, right?

尽管一位女性患有闭锁综合征，另一个人患有失忆症，还有一个人遭遇了可怕的事故，这些经历未必让你联想到自己的生活，但其中的心理教训却是普世的，每个人的故事都值得我们学习。

Even though one woman's locked has locked in syndrome and another person has amnesia and another person, you know, has this terrible accident, those are not necessarily things that remind you of your own life, but the psychological lessons are universal, and there's something to learn from everyone's story.

我非常喜欢这个观点，因为在当今全球深度分裂与疏离的时期，记住我们之间共同点远多于分歧，是拉近我们与他人距离的一种方式。

And I love this message because during a time of deep division and disconnection worldwide, it is a way of feeling closer to our fellow humans to remember that there is so much more that unifies us than may separate us in this particular domain.

其中有一个故事最能引起我的共鸣，它恰恰体现了这个理念。

One of the stories that resonated with me the most really speaks to that idea.

杜安，他一直被关在监狱里。

Duane, who has been in prison.

对吧？

Right?

我从未进过监狱。

I've not been in prison.

但他所经历的挣扎，以及他如何重新构想一个未来的自己，与他过去所设想的自我形成对比，这非常动人，尤其是当你引入道德升华这个概念时。

Yet his struggle and the way he had to reimagine a future self for him compared to the self that he had previously imagined was so beautiful, particularly when you bring in that concept of moral elevation.

所以，是的，能不能跟我聊聊杜安，告诉我们能从杜安的故事中学到什么？

So, yeah, maybe talk to me about Duane a little bit and and tell us what we can learn from Duane's story.

心理学家有一个‘可能自我’的概念，它分为三种形式。

Psychologists have this notion of possible selves, and they come in three forms.

有一种是希望的自我，反映我们的梦想和抱负。

There are hoped for selves which reflect our dreams and aspirations.

还有一种是恐惧的自我，反映我们的担忧和焦虑。

There are feared selves which reflect our worries and anxieties.

还有一种是预期的自我，反映我们对可能发生的好事或坏事的预期。

And then there are our expected selves which reflect our expectations of what is likely to happen, good or bad.

所以，是的，也许我有一天想成为泰勒·斯威夫特，但更有可能的是，鲁甘，十年后我会成为一名认知科学家。

So yes, maybe I want to be Taylor Swift one day, but more likely than not, Rungan, I'm going be a cognitive scientist in ten years.

好吧，我认为我们很多人都能体会到突如其来的变化降临，曾经敞开的大门纷纷关闭的经历。

Okay, so I think so many of us can relate to the experience of an unexpected change coming our way and many doors closing that were once open to us.

这正是杜安·贝茨所经历的事情。

This is exactly what happened to Duane Betts.

当杜安16岁时，他因一起汽车劫持案被判处九年监禁。

So when Duane was 16, he was sentenced to nine years in adult prison for a carjacking that he committed.

他原本拥有如此光明的未来。

He had had such a promising future.

他曾被选为班级财务委员。

He was voted class treasurer.

他被认定为才华出众、智力超群。

He was identified as talented and gifted.

他原本希望在佐治亚理工学院学习工程学。

He was hoping to study engineering at Georgia Tech.

他是个非常孝顺、充满爱意的儿子。

He was such a devoted and loving son to his mother.

然而，有一天晚上，他急于向 neighborhood 的男孩们证明自己的力量和男子气概，于是犯下了这桩可怕的罪行。

And yet, one evening, he was so eager to prove his strength and machismo to the boys in his neighborhood, and so he committed this horrible crime.

正如你所能想象的，杜安在那一刻感到自己的世界骤然缩小。

As you can imagine, Duane experienced his world shrink in that moment.

对吧？

Right?

他曾经设想过的所有未来都不再可能实现。

So all of these futures that he had once imagined for himself were no longer accessible.

杜安提到，他不仅在哀悼那些失去的未来自我。

And Duane describes the fact that he wasn't just mourning the loss of those future selves.

他还非常害怕自己在监狱高墙内会变成什么样的人。

He was also so fearful of who he might become within the walls of prison.

他第一次担心：我会不会染上赌博成瘾？

He worried for the first time, am I going to develop a gambling addiction?

我会变成一个瘾君子吗？

Am I going to become an addict?

我会变得暴力吗？

Am I going to become violent?

我能保护自己免受暴力侵害吗？

Am I going to be able to protect myself from violence?

所有这些想法都在他脑海中盘旋。

All of these thoughts were swirling around his mind.

拉甘，研究显示，即使在我们新受限的环境中，我们也会无端地限制自己对未来的想象。

And what research shows, Rangan, is that we can actually needlessly constrain ourselves when it comes to imagining what the future can hold for us even in our newly constrained environments.

这是因为我们有着各种偏见。

And that's because we have all sorts of prejudices.

我们对这个世界中的某些角色或标签都附着了各种刻板印象。

We have all sorts of stereotypes that we attach to certain roles or labels in this world.

因此，我们可能对高中生辍学者、青少年母亲、照顾者、慢性病患者，或者像杜安这样被监禁的人所能拥有的未来类型，有着非常有限的理解。

So we might have limited we might have a very limited understanding of the kinds of futures that are available to a high school dropout or a teen mom or a caregiver or someone with a chronic illness or, in Duane's case, someone who is incarcerated.

我们可以通过道德升华这一概念，来突破对自己在新环境中能力的想象。

And one of the ways that we can actually crack open our imagination of what we are capable of in our new environment is this concept of moral elevation.

道德升华是一种当我们目睹他人非凡行为或举动时，内心产生的温暖、愉悦的感觉。

Moral elevation is the warm, fuzzy feeling we get in our chests when we witness someone else's extraordinary behaviors or actions.

这可能是他们的勇气、善良、自我牺牲、智慧、坚韧、韧性，或是原谅他人的能力。

So that might be their courage or kindness or self sacrifice or wisdom or fortitude or resilience or ability to forgive others.

无论是什么突出的品格特质，这些都能在我们内心唤起这种温暖的感觉。

Whatever outstanding character trait it is, this can inspire this warm feeling within ourselves.

但至关重要的是，道德升华不仅仅让我们对人性感到欣慰。

But really critically, moral elevation doesn't just make us feel good about humanity.

它实际上会重塑我们的大脑。

It actually rewires our brains.

这是因为，当我们看到他人以最积极的方式打破我们对人类能力的预期时，它会打开我们对自己潜能的想象。

And that's because in witnessing other people violate our expectations, our understanding of what humans are capable of in the best way possible, it actually cracks open our own imagination about what we are capable of.

因此，回到杜安的故事，正是道德升华的体验彻底改变了杜安的人生轨迹。

And so going back to Duane's story, it was actually an experience of moral elevation that completely changed the trajectory of Duane's life.

杜安在入狱一年左右时，遇到了一名叫比拉尔的狱友。

Duane encountered a fellow prisoner named Bilal about a year or so into his time in prison.

在杜安看来，比拉尔的行为颠覆了他对囚犯身份以及如何在监狱中生存的理解。

And Bilal, in Duane's mind, defied his understanding of what it meant to be a prisoner and how you had to be in order to survive prison.

杜安原本认为，你必须极度自私，必须谨言慎行，必须以某种特定方式行事。

Duane had believed that you needed to be ruthlessly self interested, you had to keep all your cards close to the chest, that you had to be a certain way.

但比拉尔的行为却与此截然相反。

But Bilal acted in ways that defied this.

他主动保护年轻的囚犯。

He went out of his way to protect the younger prisoners.

他教他们 boxing，以应对监狱中可能遭遇的暴力威胁。

He taught them how to box, to protect themselves from the threat of violence in prison.

他主动承担起对年轻男孩们的导师角色。

He actively played a mentorship role for the younger boys.

他每天在点名前一两个小时就起床，在牢房里做250个俯卧撑，甚至在狱警到来之前就已完成。

He woke up an hour or two before count time and did 250 push ups in his prison cell even before the guards came by.

他每天早上都会熨烫他的囚服。

He would iron his prison uniform every single morning.

他确保自己每天都刮得干干净净。

He made sure that he was clean shaven each and every day.

杜安说，比拉尔举止得体，就像穿着制服的人一样，他向杜安展示了什么是美好。

Duane says that Bilal carried himself like a man in uniform, that he showed Duane what it meant to be lovely.

顺便说一句，当我听到这些话时，依然会感到一阵颤栗。

And by the way, those words still give me tingles when I hear them.

对杜安来说，比拉尔让他意识到，也许身为囚犯并不意味着就必须得是某种样子。

To Duane, Bilal showed him that maybe he didn't have to be a certain way just because he was a prisoner.

也许他还有其他的人生可能。

Maybe there were other futures available to him.

是的。

Yeah.

于是，带着这种觉醒的心态，几周后，当杜安在囚室里偶然发现一本诗集，并读到一首特别描绘了有色人种少年在监狱系统中经历的诗时，他第一次意识到：等等，也许我也可以成为一名诗人。

And so it was with this empowered mindset that when Duane encountered a book of poetry in his prison cell a couple weeks later and read one poem in particular that spoke to the experience of young boys of color in the prison system, Duane, for the first time, realized, hey, wait, maybe I could be a poet.

我做不到像比拉尔那样为监狱里的年轻男孩们做那些事。

I can't do what Bilal does for the younger boys in prison.

我不够坚强。

I'm I'm not strong.

我不知道怎么打拳。

I don't know how to box.

我无法以那种方式保护他们。

I can't protect them in that way.

但我可以通过写作来赋予他们的经历尊严，而这是他知道自身拥有的天赋。

But I can dignify their experiences through writing, which was a gift that he knew he had.

时间快进几十年。

Fast forward a few decades.

如今，杜安是耶鲁法学院的毕业生。

Today, Duane is a graduate of Yale Law School.

他是麦克阿瑟天才奖得主，写出了我读过最优美、最动人的诗篇，赋予了监狱系统中年轻有色人种男性经历以尊严。

He's a MacArthur Genius Prize winner, and he writes some of the most beautiful stirring poetry that I've ever read that dignifies the experiences of young men of color in the prison system.

他将这一整个转变归功于在监狱高墙内经历的那次道德升华。

And he credits this entire transformation to that one experience of moral elevation that he had within the walls of prison.

我觉得这是一个如此美丽而动人的故事，因为道德升华其实是我们每个人都能够获得的。

And I just find that to be such a beautiful, moving story because moral elevation is something that is available to all of us.

只要我们有意识、善于观察、放下手机，静静见证周围的世界，这种升华就时刻环绕在我们身边。

It is actually all around us all the time if we are just intentional, and we are observant, and we put our phones down, and we just witness the world around us.

这是一个多么美丽的故事。

It's such a beautiful story.

我喜欢这个故事，因为它让我想到，除了帮助像杜安这样的人，或帮助我们应对变化，我们也可以反过来思考，玛雅——想想我们自己的行为有多么重要，因为你永远不知道，什么时候会有人目睹你行善、践行价值观、在容易做错或不诚实的事情时选择了正确的事。

I love it because it made me think that as well as helping someone like Duane or helping us navigate change, I think we can also flip it, Maya, and think about ourselves and go, well, the way we conduct ourselves is really, really important because you never know when someone's going to witness you doing an act of kindness, acting in alignment with your values, doing the right thing when it would be easy to do the wrong thing or the dishonest thing.

这真的非常鼓舞人心。

Like, it's very, very inspiring.

听到这样的故事，我会想成为更好的人。

It makes me want to be a better person when I hear stories like that.

我也是。

Me too.

我想分享的是，我最喜欢道德升华的一个方面是，它能够超越环境和你试图改善的具体事物。你可能会目睹他人非凡的宽恕行为，而你本人或许并不打算原谅生活中的任何人，但这种行为可能激励你拓展对他人的同理心。

And I wanna share that one of my favorite aspects of moral elevation is that it does transcend circumstances and the specific thing you're trying to improve within So you might witness an extraordinary act of forgiveness in someone else, and you might not be looking to forgive someone in your life, but maybe inspires you to expand your sense of empathy for others.

它可能让你变得更善良。

Maybe it leads you to be a kinder person.

它可能激励你成为一个更有韧性的人都。

Maybe it inspires you to be a more resilient person.

因此，就你整个人生而言，这种影响可以是广泛而深远的。

And so the impact as far as it the impact is can be widespread when it comes to you and your life overall.

我特别喜欢这一点，因为我可能只是走在街上，或在咖啡店，目睹一位服务员对明显心情不佳的顾客展现出的善意。

And I love that because I might just be walking down the street or I might be at the coffee shop and I witness a barista's kindness to one of the patrons who's obviously having a bad day.

然后，也许我再去上班。

And then maybe I go to work.

而这种道德升华的体验所激发的，未必一定是善意，也可能是其他某种品格特质。

And again, it's not necessarily kindness that this experience of moral elevation leads me to tap into, but it's some other character trait that it leads me to tap into.

因此，这种影响是深远的。

And so the effect is profound.

我确实一直努力让道德升华成为我每天生活的一部分。

And I have really made it a point to try and welcome moral elevation into my life each and every day.

是的。

Yeah.

因为我发现它无处不在。

Because I have found it to be omnipresent.

它是我们打开新闻、阅读报纸时所经历的种种负面信息的绝佳对抗力量，对吧？

And it is a wonderful counterforce to all the negativity that we experience when we turn on the news, when we read the newspaper, right?

当我们参与这些活动时，有时会不断被人类最糟糕的一面所淹没。

We just get bombarded by the worst of humanity sometimes when we engage in those experiences.

而知道我们能从这些日常时刻、从他人生活中看似微小却对受助者和旁观者产生深远影响的瞬间中，重新找回对人类未来的乐观、希望与喜悦，这真是太棒了。

And to know that we can reclaim some of our optimism and our hope and our joy about the future of humanity from these everyday moments, from these seemingly small moments in the life of someone else that has a profound outsized impact on the recipient, on the observer of that action.

这真是深刻。

It it it is profound.

这很美好。

It it's beautiful.

我想杜安或杜安注意到比拉尔的一点是，尽管我身陷监狱，周围有很多人充满攻击性、不友善，为了在这种环境中生存而变得适应，但我并不一定要变成那样。

I guess what Duane or one of the things Duane saw in Bilal was even though I'm in prison and even there's many people around me who are being aggressive and are not being nice and, you know, are adapting to try and survive in this situation, I don't have to end up like that.

我知道这一点的原因是，比拉尔并没有变成那样。

And the reason I know that is because Bilal hasn't ended up like that.

说得完全正确。

That's exactly right.

杜安曾提到，比拉尔说过：这就是我的身份。

Duane says at one point, Bilal was saying, this is my identity.

我喜欢这句话，因为它提醒我们，每个人在新的环境中都拥有自主权。

And what I love about that quote is it reminds us we actually each have agency in our new environments.

我们可以选择自己想成为什么样的人。

We can choose who we want to be.

我们可以拒绝刻板印象、社会对我们的文化期待，拒绝接受社会认为我们注定要成为的样子，我们可以走出自己的路，说：不，我拒绝外界存在的任何规范或期待，我现在就决定我是谁。

We can reject the stereotypes, the cultural expectations of us, what society thinks we are destined to become, and we can carve our own path and say, no, I'm resisting whatever norms might exist out there, whatever expectations might exist, and I'm deciding this is who I'm going to be right now.

我非常欣赏这种力量感，因为虽然我很想说，我写了这本书，但另一方面，我在想，我不再需要掌控生活中的每一件事了。

And I love that sense of empowerment so much because while I would love to say that I wrote this book and on the other side, I'm thinking I don't need control anymore in my life.

我很好。

I'm good.

我达到了一种类似佛教的境界。

I have achieved a Buddhist like state.

当然，我仍然希望感受到掌控感。

Of course, I still want to feel control.

至少，我希望变化的另一面能让人重新获得在新环境中仍拥有的自主权。

And at a minimum, what I'm hoping the other side of change does is it allows people to reclaim the agency they still have in their new their new circumstances.

所以，是的，他们无法改变癌症的诊断结果。

So yes, they can't change the cancer diagnosis.

他们无法改变失去亲人的事实。

They can't change the loss of someone.

他们无法改变失去工作的现实。

They can't change the loss of a job.

他们无法改变这一点。

They can't change that.

也许朋友背叛了你。

Maybe there is a betrayal by a friend.

但我所要论证的是，他们可以通过这些有科学依据的策略、重新框架、视角转换或思想实验来改变内心的状态。

But what I'm arguing is that they can change what's up in here through these science backed strategies or reframes or perspective shifts or thought experiments.

你在那一章中分享了自己经历道德升华的时刻，我想那是在纳丁·科尔勒的母亲遇害事件时。

You shared in that chapter your own experience of moral elevation when I think it was the shooting of Nadine Collier's mom.

而且

And

没错。

Correct.

你看到她在电视上对凶手说，我想是这样：你从我这里夺走了一些珍贵的东西，但我原谅你。

You saw her, I think on television say, I think to the killer, you took something precious from me, but I forgive you.

这又是那种让你停下阅读、惊叹不已的时刻。

It was again, it was one of those where you you stop reading and go, wow.

它向你展示了人们所能达到的境界，令人深受鼓舞。

It it shows you it inspires you to know what people are capable of.

她的母亲被杀害了，但就在那之后不久，她依然能够原谅凶手，尽管对方犯下了如此罪行。

Her mother has been murdered, and yet still very soon after, she's able to forgive the killer despite what has been done.

对吧？

Right?

所以这非常、非常鼓舞人心。

So it's very, very inspiring.

你认为目睹这一道德升华的行为对你产生了什么影响？

What do you think witnessing that act of moral elevation did for you?

今天的节目由The Way赞助。

Today's episode is sponsored by The Way.

多年来我试过很多冥想应用，但从未遇到过像The Way这样出色或有效的。

I have tried so many meditation apps over the years, but I've never come across one as good or as effective as The Way.

我已经连续几个月每天早上都在使用它，我非常喜欢。

I've been using it most mornings for many months now, and I absolutely love it.

我觉得这是开启每一天的绝佳方式，它真的帮助我感到更平静、放松，也更专注。

I find it a fantastic way to start off each day, and it has really helped me feel calmer, relaxed, and more present.

事实上，我非常喜欢这个应用，以至于我最近决定投资这家公司，并加入他们让更多人开始冥想的使命。

In fact, I love this app so much that I recently decided to invest in the company and join them in their mission to get more people meditating.

我相信，更多人冥想将有助于创造一个更具同情心的世界。

I believe that more people meditating will help create a more compassionate world.

正如达赖喇嘛本人所说，如果世界上每个八岁的孩子都接受冥想训练，我们将在一代人之内消除世界上的暴力。

And as the Dalai Lama himself said, if every eight year old in the world is taught meditation, we will eliminate violence from the world within one generation.

冥想已被证明具有各种益处，能减轻压力、增加平静感、提升专注力，长期来看，甚至已被证实能对大脑中与记忆、专注和情绪调节相关的区域产生积极的结构性变化。

Meditation has been shown to have all kinds of benefits, reducing stress, increasing calm, improving focus, and over time has even been shown to result in positive structural changes in the brain in areas linked to memory, focus, and emotional regulation.

但当然，只有你真正去实践，才能获得这些益处。

But, of course, you only get those benefits if you actually do it.

而这正是我如此喜爱The Way的主要原因之一。

And that's one of the main reasons I love The Way so much.

它让建立一种持久的冥想习惯变得非常容易。

It makes it really easy to establish a meditation practice that sticks.

如果你不相信我，我鼓励你亲自试一试，亲自去体验一下。

If you don't believe me, I would encourage you to give it a try and find out for yourself.

事实上，为了帮助你做到这一点，The Way 正在为我的播客听众提供30节免费冥想课程，助你开启冥想之旅。

In fact, to help you do that, The Way are offering my podcast listeners an incredible 30 free meditation sessions to get you started with your practice.

所以你可以免费试用，看看是否喜欢。

So you can try it out and see if you like it completely free of charge.

要获取这个福利，你只需访问 thewayapp.com/live-more 即可开始，踏上通往平和、宁静与人生目标的旅程。

To take advantage, all you have to do is go to thewayapp.com forward slash live more to get started and begin your journey towards peace, calm, and purpose.

是的。

Yes.

这是对南卡罗来纳州母亲伊曼纽尔教堂惨烈枪击事件的回应。

This was in response to the horrific shooting at Mother Emanuel Church in South Carolina.

正如你提到的，一名遇难者的女儿在法庭上向种族主义凶手表达了宽恕。

And as you mentioned, the daughter of one of the victims extended forgiveness to the racist killer in the courtroom.

纳丁的宽恕能力让我深受触动。

And I was so moved by Nadine's capacity for forgiveness.

我的意思是，这让我感到无比震撼。

I mean, it was stunning to me.

直到今天，回想起那段经历，我仍会感到脊背发凉，大脑几乎难以消化这些信息。

Mean, to this day, reflecting on that experience, I get chills through my spine and my brain almost struggles to assimilate that information.

事实上，这正是道德升华所起的作用。

I feel like I have to, in fact, is what moral elevation does.

它迫使你更新对人类能力的认知模型。

Forces you to update your mental models of what humans are capable of.

我想说，纳丁通过她的榜样为我带来的影响，是让我意识到自己能为人类和他人付出的远比我现在所给予的要多得多。

And I would say that what Nadine did for me through her example is inspired me to think I am capable of so much more than I've currently given to humanity and to others.

无论我认为自己在同理心、善良、同情或宽恕方面有什么局限，

That whatever I believe my limits are when it comes to empathy or kindness or compassion or or forgiveness.

都要显著提高标准，玛雅，因为纳丁向你展示了什么是可能的。

Raise the bar significantly, Maya, because that is what Nadine has shown you is possible.

所以你要带着这份感悟继续前行。

And so you carry that with you.

而道德升华的奇妙之处在于，你永远不知道它会在何时发生。

And the thing about moral elevation is you don't know when it will play out.

你不知道这种影响会在什么时候显现出来。

You don't know when that influence will will reveal itself.

但当你生活下去时，你会意识到：哦，在这一刻，我被要求展现出比自己舒适区更多的同情心。

But then as you live your life, you realize, Oh, in this moment, I'm being asked to show more compassion than I might be comfortable with.

但此刻，纳丁的形象在我脑海中提醒我，我实际上能付出更多的同情。

But I have Nadine now in the back of my head reminding me that I actually am capable of more compassion.

是的，对吧？

Yeah, right?

或者，我需要展现出比自己认为能做的更多的耐心。

Or maybe I need to show more patience than I'm I feel I'm capable of showing.

我是个相当没有耐心的人，我心想：不，不行，不行。

I'm a fairly impatient person and I think no, no, no.

但你实际上能拥有更多的耐心。

You actually are capable of more patience.

对。

Yeah.

我非常喜欢这一点。

I love that.

在我上一首诗中，我试图探讨英雄对我们而言究竟意味着什么。

In in my last poem, I sort of tried to examine what a hero really is to us.

我得出的一个结论是，当我们看到某个人被视为英雄，或真正激励我们的人时，往往是因为他们映照出我们内心本就拥有的某种品质。

And one of the things I concluded is that when we see someone who we regard as a hero or someone who really, really inspires us, often it's because they reflect back to us something that we know we have within us.

因此，我们不是崇拜那个人的全部，而是去思考：这个人映照出的什么特质，是我如果加以培养，也能在自己身上激发出来的？

So instead of worshiping the totality of who that person is, it's trying to go, what what is it this person is reflecting back to me that I know if I can cultivate it, can bring out of me as well.

这让我稍微想起了那件事。

And it it kind of reminds me a little a little bit about that.

你觉得，玛雅，我们社会如此喜爱电影的原因之一是什么？

Do do you think, Maya, one of the reasons we like films so much as a society.

对吧？

Right?

当然，电影也有不同类型。

And of course, there's different types of films.

但在电影中，通常有一种鼓舞人心的元素。

But often in films, there is an uplifting component.

你知道，英雄做了一些真正了不起的事情。

You know, the hero does something truly wonderful.

对吧？

Right?

他们选择做正确的事，而不是容易的事。

They they do the right thing, not the easy thing.

这是否就是道德升华的例子，也解释了我们为何会被这些令人愉悦的电影吸引？

Is that an example of moral elevation and why perhaps we're drawn to these feel good films?

是的。

Yeah.

你提到这一点真有意思，因为我为这本书所做的某些研究探讨了小说在拓宽我们对自身可能性的想象中所起的作用。

It's so interesting you mentioned that because some of the research that I did for this book explores the role that fiction broadly plays in cracking open our imagination about what is possible for us.

所以，在你最需要道德升华的时候，有时很难主动去接纳它，对吧？

So it is sometimes hard to invite moral elevation into your life at exactly the moment you need it, right?

因此，我建议人们回顾过去，因为你可能已经经历过一些道德升华的时刻，这些经历或许能帮助你当下。

And so I do advise people reflect on the past because you might actually have moments of moral elevation you've already experienced that could be helpful to you in this moment.

但你无法确切地制造出这种时刻。

But you can't exactly manufacture.

你无法人为地安排此刻你需要的灵感时刻。

You can't engineer that the moment of inspiration that you need right now.

因此，你实际上可以阅读小说，或者我认为同样的洞见也适用于看电影。

And So what you can do actually is read fiction, or I think the same insight would apply to watching movies.

研究人员称小说为身份实验室。

Researchers call fiction an identity laboratory.

这是因为当我们阅读他人，或像你提到的，观看电影中的他人时，我们会不费力地将自己的身份与所阅读或观看的角色融合在一起。

And that's because when we read about other people, or in your case with the film, we watch other people, we effortlessly blend our self identities with the character that we're reading about.

这使我们能够培养一个心理上安全的空间，在其中我们可以践行新的个性特质。

And what this allows us to do is cultivate a psychologically safe space in which we can embody new personality traits.

我们可以做出比日常生活中更冒险的决定。

We can make maybe more risky decisions than we would otherwise feel comfortable making in our everyday life.

我们可以尝试不同的生活方式和处世方式，通过这个角色或我们自己的想象力去感受它们带来的体验。

We can try on for size different ways of being and moving about in this world and see what it feels like via this character or via our own imagination.

所以我认为你说得非常对。

And so I think you're you're exactly you're spot on.

当我们目睹他人做出这些美好的行为，或者只是看到他们做出与我们不同的决定时，这些行为会在我们的思维中打开一个小缺口。

When we witness these beautiful acts in other people or when we just witness them making decisions that might not look like our own, it just pokes a little hole in our minds.

心想：等等。

Thinks, Oh, wait a second.

我一直以来都以为，在Y情况下，我必须做X。

I kind of always thought that I would need to do X in circumstance Y.

但也许情况并非如此。

But maybe that's not the case.

也许我可以承担更多风险。

Maybe I could take a few more risks.

也许我可以做出一些不同于以往的决定，而这些决定实际上会带来丰厚的回报。

Maybe I could make different decisions that I'm used to making and actually it would lead to great returns.

因此，我鼓励人们在关键时刻拿起一本小说。

And so I encourage people to, in moments of inflection, actually just pick up a fiction book.

是的。

Yeah.

我希望带来一种愉悦感，因为很多人喜欢阅读小说。

I want a delight because a lot of people love reading fiction.

事实证明，这样做在认知科学方面有巨大的益处。

It turns out that there's huge cognitive science benefits to doing that.

因为再次强调，我们可以探索自己新的侧面，而无需承担日常生活中可能遭遇的风险。

Because again, we get to explore new sides of ourselves without the risk that we might endure in everyday life.

对。

Yeah.

这让我想到，道德升华或见证这些勇气和纯粹的道德行为，会以几种不同的方式影响我们。

It makes me think that moral elevation or witnessing these acts of courage and just frankly exquisite moral BC can impact us in a in a a couple of different ways.

你在书中提到，这是一种帮助我们应对变化的方式。

You you write about it in the book as a way of helping us deal with change.

所以杜安正挣扎于他入狱后的新生活，而目睹这些行为帮助他更好地应对这一转变。

So Duane is struggling with his new scenario in life that he's in prison, and witnessing this helps him navigate his change better.

但你刚才说的时候，我想，但反过来也成立，不是吗？

But as you were just talking then, I thought, yeah, but it works the other way as well, doesn't it?

我们可能并不在寻找改变。

We may not be looking for change.

我们可能只是过着日常的生活，而目睹道德升华实际上能激励我们做出改变。

We may just be going about our day to day life and existing and witnessing moral elevation can actually inspire us to change.

因此，它不仅能帮助我们应对不想要的改变，也能激励我们选择一条不同的改变之路。

So it can help us deal with unwanted change, but it can also inspire us to, I guess, choose a different path of change for us.

所以，探索它如何在多个层面上影响我们，真是很有趣，对吧？

So it's it's quite interesting to explore, isn't it, how how it affects us on multiple different levels?

是的。

Yes.

这种双向的影响。

The bidirectional impact.

我很喜欢你刚才说的这些，兰甘，因为这本书的一个隐秘期望就是，它确实能帮助那些正在应对意外变化的人。

I I love that you've just said this, Rangan, because one of my secret hopes for this book was that, yes, it would help people who are navigating unexpected change.

但我真的希望它也能帮助那些抗拒变化、或者只是

But I really wanted it to help people who are resistant to change or maybe just a little

有点

too

安于现状、并不寻求重大转变的人。

comfortable with the status quo, aren't looking for any big shifts.

我现在的人生阶段就是这样。

I'm I'm in that current phase in my life.

我只想：拜托，什么都别发生。

I'm like please nothing.

我只希望一切照常进行。

I would just like to maintain business as usual.

非常感谢，宇宙。

Thank you very much universe.

然而，我们实际上会从激发自身生活中的改变中获益，只是我们需要一点推动力才能实现它。

And yet we would actually benefit from inspiring a change in our own life, and we just need a little bit of that kick in the butt in order to make it happen.

事实上，听到读者说他们原本并不打算寻求改变，但读了杜安的故事、塔拉的故事或英格丽德的故事后，却因此激发了自己生活中的新变化，这让我感到非常欣慰。

And it's been a joy actually to hear from readers of the book who said, I wasn't looking to inspire any change, but then I read Duane's story or I read Tara's story or I read Ingrid's story, and they actually inspired me to initiate a new change in my life.

也许这种改变是换工作、改变现有关系，或是重新审视那些他们从未想过要回顾、却一直觉得拖累自己的过去。

Maybe that was changing a job or changing the relationship they're in or revisiting parts of their past that they never thought to revisit that they felt were holding them back.

我最近真的收到一封读者来信，天哪，昨晚我才刚读到这篇文字。

I actually heard from oh my god, I just got this this essay from a reader last night.

他是在十八个月前意外失去妻子的，而阅读这本书促使他写下自己在经历变革之后变成了怎样的人。

He had unexpectedly lost his wife just eighteen months ago, and reading the book led him to write who reflect on who he's become on the other side of change.

他所写的这篇文字最动人之处在于，他并不仅仅说：‘这是我如何重新思考与哀伤或这段经历的关系’。

And what was so beautiful about the essay that he wrote was that he didn't simply say, this is how I'm rethinking my relationship with my grief or this experience.

他还明确列出了自己未来想成为怎样的人的一系列目标。

But he had all of these goals for who he wanted to become moving forward.

其中一个目标是关于职业转变，以及这段经历如何影响他未来的商业计划和与孩子们的关系。

One of them was about like career shifts and how this might inform his next business ventures and his relationships with his kids.

我再次觉得这真是一个非常美好的表达，也是我对这本书的一个隐秘期望。

I just found that so such a beautiful expression again and one of my secret hopes to the book.

我本希望达到这样的效果，但当然，我也非常谦逊。

And I was hoping to achieve that, but I was, you know, obviously very humble about it.

我不确定它是否会产生这样的影响。

I didn't know whether it would have that effect.

所以，是的，我真的很欣赏你的观察。

So yeah, just I just love your observation.

听到这本书已经对人们产生了如此大的影响，真是太好了。

That's that's wonderful to hear that it's already having such an impact on people.

我稍后想谈谈反刍思维，因为我认为这是人们在应对意外变化时常常陷入的难题。

I wanna talk about rumination in just a moment because I think that's something that people really, really struggle with and often go to when dealing with an unexpected change.

但在那之前，我想再 briefly 回顾一下死亡这个话题，因为在我作为家庭医生的职业生涯早期，我就深刻体会到我们的信念如何极大地影响我们应对变化的方式。

But before we go there though, I just wanna revisit the topic of death for a moment because this idea that our beliefs have a huge impact on how we deal with change was really brought home to me early on in my career as a family practice doctor, so as a GP.

我清楚地记得，有一天早上，一对年轻夫妇来就诊，他们的男婴在周末去世了。

I remember so well, one morning, this young couple came in for their appointment and their baby boy had died over the weekends.

天啊。

Oh my god.

你知道，我觉得那时候孩子大概两三个月大。

You know, I think it was two or three months old.

我现在记不清具体的细节了。

I can't remember the exact details now.

但我记得那次咨询中，他们有着非常严格的宗教信仰。

But the thing I remember from that consultation is that they had very strict religious beliefs.

他们告诉我，他们显然很难过，泪流满面，但他们对我说，这是上帝的旨意。

And they said to me they were clearly upset, they were tearful, but they said to me, this was God's will.

当时听到这些，对我来说确实挺震撼的，我想。

Now to me at the time, was quite confronting to hear that, I guess.

自从那以后，我反复思考过这件事，梅耶，我在读你的书时又想起了它，我想，他们的信仰——对超越自身存在之物的坚定信念——或许帮助他们度过了 arguably 最痛苦的人类经历之一。

You know, I I I've reflected on it a lot since then, Meyer, and I I thought about it again whilst reading your book because I thought, I think their belief, their strong belief in something greater than their existence helped them navigate arguably one of the most harrowing human experiences.

因为我在接下来的几个月甚至几年里，又见过他们几次。

Because I I saw them a few times over the the next few months and years.

我想问你的问题是，你认为相信某种超越自我的力量——无论是宗教、灵性，还是其他东西——在我们应对变化时扮演着怎样的角色？

And and and I I guess the question I have for you is, what role do you think having a belief in something greater, whether that's religion or spirituality or, you know, something else, what role do you think that plays in our ability to navigate change?

我认为，无论我们是否信仰宗教或灵性，我们天生就是讲故事的人。

I think irrespective of whether we are religious or not or spiritual or not, we are natural born storytellers.

我们渴望从经历中构建叙事，因为直面宇宙对无辜者如此随意而冷酷的残酷现实，心理上可能令人彻底崩溃。

We want to create narratives out of our experiences because it can just be mentally devastating to really confront the idea that the universe can be so indiscriminately cruel and callous towards people who simply don't deserve it.

你知道，心理学中有一个概念叫‘公正世界信念’。

You know, there's a psychological concept called belief in a just world.

我认为我们所有人都倾向于这种信念，或者至少大多数人如此，因为想到宇宙对我们是好人还是坏人漠不关心，实在太令人不安了。

And I think we all gravitate towards that belief, or most of us do, because it is so uncomfortable to think that the universe is kind of indifferent towards whether we're good people or bad people.

对吧？

Right?

想到好事会降临在好人身上，坏事会发生在坏人身上，或者相信存在一个更大的计划，这种想法令人无比安慰。

It's so comforting to think that good things will happen to good people and bad things will happen to bad people or that there is a larger plan.

总有一种方式可以解释不公的存在。

There is some way of explaining away injustice.

所以我认为每个人都有不同的方式来解释这种不公。

And so I think each person has a different way of explaining away the injustice.

就我个人而言，我会回归到大脑和人类心理学的科学，试图弄清楚：我个人并不相信事情的发生都有其原因，但这并不意味着我不想从我生命中最艰难的时刻中尽可能多地提取意义和价值。

For me personally, I fall back on the science of the mind and human psychology to try to figure out, well, I don't believe things happen for a reason personally, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to extract as much meaning and value as there is to extract from the hardest moments of my life.

因此，我仍然在进行这种叙事构建。

And so I still engage in that narrative making.

你知道，我仍然在努力从各种经历中构建意义。

You know, I still engage in trying to construct meaning out of things.

我尊重任何人实现这一目标的方式，你知道吗？

I respect any way that a person is able to achieve that end goal, you know?

是的。

Yeah.

但对每个人来说，这种表现方式都不同。

But it just looks different for each for every one of us.

是的，我认为这种情况教会我的是，每个人都有权以自己认为合适的方式去应对世界。

Yeah, I think what that situation taught me is that everyone's entitled to navigate the world in whichever way they see fit.

知道吗，如果这能帮助某人应对逆境的话。

Know, if that helps someone navigate adversity.

我有什么资格去评判这是好是坏呢？

Who am I to say that's good or bad?

事实上，我并没有打算那样做。

In fact, I wasn't trying to do that.

对我来说，观察这一切并感叹‘哇，这真了不起’，只是非常有趣。

It was just very interesting for me to observe it and go, wow, that is amazing.

也许吧。

Maybe Yeah.

当然。

Absolutely.

也许其中一个原因，是西方社会如今在应对变化时如此困难，因为我们变得更加世俗，而宗教信仰减少了。

Maybe one of the reasons that in Western society, we struggle so much today at dealing with change is because we become more secular and less religious.

我再次强调，我并不是想评判哪一方更好或更差。

I'm just, again, I'm not trying to come down on either side and say one's better than the other.

完全不是。

Not at all.

当你拥有坚定的信仰体系时，它确实能帮助你应对困境。

It's just simply when you do have a strong belief system, it probably helps you navigate.

哦，当然。

Oh, absolutely.

比如，我在印度的叔叔和婶婶非常虔诚。

I mean, my uncle and aunt, for example, in India are deeply religious.

我能看出他们面对创伤和负面事件时的方式截然不同。

And I can see how differently they engage with trauma and negative events.

他们真的相信这一切都是他们更大计划的一部分，是上帝的旨意。

They really do believe that it is part of a bigger plan for them, and it is God's will.

而我呢，你知道，我却陷入各种压力和焦虑中。

And they whereas I'm, you know, I'm engaging in all of this stress and anxiety around it.

我觉得我的叔叔和婶婶能更快地达到接纳的状态。

They I feel like my uncle and aunt are able to reach acceptance so much more quickly.

这种彻底的接纳，直到今天对我来说依然难以实现。

Radical acceptance that remains elusive to me to this day.

所以确实如此，我经常在我的家人身上看到这一点。

And so absolutely, I mean, witness it all the time just within my own family.

有趣的是，正如你所说，这本书充满了有科学依据的策略，我们稍后会谈到其中一些。

It's interesting as you say that the book is full of these science backed strategies, and we're we're gonna get to some of them shortly.

对吧？

Right?

所以你做了大量的研究。

So you you you've you've done a lot of the research.

你展示了研究的成果，以及我们如何将其应用到生活中。

You show what the research has demonstrated and how we can apply it in our lives.

但我想到的是，当你写到你父亲的时候，那是在你人生的两个时刻。

But I guess what I think about is the moments when you wrote about your own father, and there's two points in your life.

嗯。

Mhmm.

我想在你上大学之前，当你不得不放弃成为职业音乐会小提琴家的梦想时，他给了你一些非常明智的建议，这些建议或许不是基于科学，而是源于他的经验，但它们极大地帮助了你，比如他带你去墓地的那一刻。

I think before you went to college, after you've had to give up the dream of being a professional concert violinist, where he gives you some quite sage advice that was perhaps not based on science, but based on his But that also massively helped you like that moment when he took you to the cemetery.

是的，这很有趣，因为刚才我反思自己作为认知科学家的人生时，对吧？

Yeah, it's so funny because when I was reflecting just now on my life as a cognitive scientist, right?

本科、博士、博士后。

Undergrad, PhD, postdoc.

我接受的是实证方法的训练，对吧？

I was trained in empirical methods, right?

所以在某种意义上，那个领域的学术界会说：‘我们在谈故事吗？’

And so in some sense, the academic community in that sphere would say, Oh, are we talking about stories?

为什么我们要谈叙事？

Why are we talking about narratives?

这会削弱建议的力度。

That's diluting the strength of the recommendation.

但我在这方面的看法已经完全改变了。

And I have totally changed my tune on that front.

所以当我2021年刚开始做我的播客《计划的小调整》时，那种将科学与叙事结合的力量，就像一列货运列车迎面撞来，帮助我们在应对变化时获得最大的价值和收益。

So when I first started my podcast, A Slight Change of Plans back in 2021, I it was like being hit by a freight train in terms of the power of marrying science and storytelling to help us extract the most value, the most benefit when it comes to navigating change.

因此，我深信正是这两个领域的交汇点，才能带来最深刻的洞察。

And so I'm such a firm believer that is the intersection of these two spheres that leads to maximum insight.

正因如此，当我考虑写这本书时，我决定以叙事为先。

And for that reason, when I was even thinking about writing this book, I wanted it to be narrative first.

我真的相信，我们真正感受到转变，是在阅读他人的故事时发生的。

I really believe that it is in people's it is in reading people's stories that we feel truly transformed.

当然，科学内容也很棒，我也希望给读者一些结构化的指导，比如在书的结尾，提供一个‘变化生存工具包’。

And yes, the science is really nice, and I wanted to give people some structure so that, you know, as you know, at the end of the book, give people a quote change survival kit.

我希望当他们面对自己生活中的变化时，能有一个指南。

I want them to have a guide when they're navigating change in their own life.

但更重要的是，我真心希望他们能内化这些教训，而我自己也正是如此。

But importantly, I really wanted them to internalize these lessons, and I felt that myself.

我知道书中所讨论的科学概念，但只有在与奥利维亚、杜安、英格丽德和马特同行的过程中，我才真正开始在自己的生活中实践这些科学方法。

Know, I'm aware of the concepts, the scientific concepts I write about in the book, but it was only in going on the journey with Olivia, with Duane, with Ingrid, with Matt, that I started to truly practice some of the science in my own life.

所以我认为叙事部分极其重要。

So I think the narrative component is so, so important.

我想再多分享一点关于小提琴的经历，因为我觉得从那段经历中学到了一些非常宝贵的见解，有些甚至最近才领悟。

I wanted to share a little bit more about the violin experience because I feel like I did learn some really valuable insights from that experience, some of it only recently.

然后，就像你提到的，来自我爸爸。

And then, like you said, from my dad.

从六岁起，我的生活就完全围绕着小提琴展开。

So from the time I was six, my life really centered around the violin.

我妈妈爬上阁楼，取下了我祖母年轻时在印度和缅甸演奏过的小提琴。

My mom went up to her attic and brought down my grandmother's violin that she had played as a young girl living in India and in Burma.

每年夏天我们去印度时，我和祖母关系非常亲密。

And I was so close to my grandmother when we would go to India over the summers.

我们俩简直形影不离。

She and I were just inseparable.

我记得我会睡在她旁边的油毡地板上。

Know, I'd sleep next to her on the linoleum floor.

我们会把纱丽布折叠起来当枕头用。

Would fold up sari cloth that would serve as our pillows.

我会坐在她旁边，在她长时间祈祷时，模仿她摇晃的动作和祈祷的姿势。

I would sit next to her in the prayer room as she prayed for hours and hours, and I would try to simulate her rocking motions and her prayer position.

当她烹饪美味的印度菜时，我会站在她旁边拉扯她的纱丽。

Would stand next to her and tug at her sari when she was cooking delicious Indian food.

所以当妈妈把这把小提琴拿下来，我的三个哥哥姐姐都拒绝了它时，因为我与外婆（母亲的母亲）非常亲近，我就说：我想演奏这把乐器。

And so I think that when my mom brought down this violin and my three older siblings rejected it, I, because I felt so close to my patti to my maternal grandmother said yes, I want to play this instrument.

这种联系是瞬间建立的，拉甘。

And the connection was instant, Rangan.

尽管我当时还那么小。

So even though I was so little.

我的父母从来不需要督促我练习，这相当不寻常。

My parents never had to really tell me to practice, which was kind of extraordinary.

我的意思是，他们得催我做很多其他事情，但我对音乐的热爱是发自内心的。

I mean, I mean, they had to tell me to do all sorts of other things, but my love of music was was really visceral.

当我九岁时，我参加了纽约茱莉亚音乐学院的入学考试，从此每个周末都从康涅狄格州前往纽约上课。

And when I was nine, I auditioned for the Juilliard School of Music in New York, and I started going there every weekend from Connecticut to New York.

所以我每天早上4:30起床，坐火车去纽约。

So I would get up at 04:30 in the morning, take a train to New York.

我每天上十个小时的课，晚上回家，开始萌生成为职业音乐家的远大梦想。

I would have ten hours of classes, come home at night, and I started to develop big dreams of becoming a professional.

当我进入青春期时，著名小提琴家伊扎克·帕尔曼邀请我成为他的私人小提琴学生。

And then when I was a teenager, the renowned violinist Itzhak Perlman invited me to be his private violin student.

这给了我极大的信心，让我相信自己真的能在这样一个竞争激烈的世界中脱颖而出。

And that was really the vote of confidence I felt I needed to believe that I could actually make it in this fiercely competitive world.

你可以想象，在这个精英圈子里，我经常有冒名顶替综合症，始终不确定自己是否真的具备所需的能力。

You know, as you can imagine, I had a lot of impostor syndrome operating in this very elite circle, and I never really knew if I had what it what it took.

一切原本都按计划进行，直到我改变了计划。

And so everything was going according to plan until I had my slight change of plans.

我在演奏一首非常困难的曲子时，过度拉伸了小指，导致手部肌腱受损。

I overstretched my pinky finger playing a note in a very challenging piece, and I damaged tendons in my hand.

尽管我经历了数月乃至数年的抗拒、否认、固执、实验性治疗、手术、物理治疗、皮质醇注射和抗炎药物，我依然无法康复。

And despite months and then years of resistance and denial and stubbornness and experimental treatments and surgeries and physical therapy and cortisone injections and anti inflammatories, I was unable to heal.

于是医生最终告诉我：听着，你的梦想结束了。

And so doctors finally told me, Look, your dream is over.

你真的需要停止演奏了。

You really need to stop playing.

关于我的悲痛，有一件事特别令人费解：当然，我是在为失去乐器而哀伤。

And there was something so curious about my grief, which was that, of course, I was grieving the loss of the instrument.

但我真正感受到的，是更根本意义上的自我丧失。

But I really felt like I was grieving the loss of myself in this more foundational way.

我觉得，失去小提琴的同时，我也失去了玛雅。

It felt like in losing the violin, I had lost Maya.

我想，有时在我们的生活中，直到失去某样东西，我们才意识到它曾多么深刻地定义了我们。

And I think sometimes in our lives, we don't realize how much something has come to define us until we lose it.

但我的很大一部分自我，都与小提琴紧密交织在一起。

But so much of who I was was entangled with the violin.

我的意义感和目标感，我的自信心和价值感，我的归属感。

My sense of meaning and purpose, my sense of self confidence and value, my sense of belonging.

你知道，我是 predominantly 白人社区中为数不多的棕色皮肤孩子之一，我被 neighborhood 的女孩们欺负。

You know, I was one of the few brown kids in a predominantly Caucasian community, and I was bullied by the girls in my neighborhood.

但当我上音乐学校时，那里更加国际化，我感受到了温暖的接纳。

But when I was at music school, was more international, I felt warmly embraced.

我觉得我的同龄人爱我、欣赏我、重视我。

I felt like my peers loved me and appreciated me and valued me.

所以。

And so.

这比我想像的还要令人心碎。

It was a more devastating loss than I think I could have imagined.

如果你早些时候告诉我，有一天你可能会失去小提琴。

If you had told me earlier that you once you might one day lose the violin.

而我花了数十年才学会我要分享的这个道理，但我真心希望这对你们播客的听众有所帮助。

And it's taken me now decades to learn the lesson I'm about to share, but I really hope it's it's helpful to to listeners of your podcast.

将我们的自我认同建立在我们所做的事情上，可能会非常脆弱。

It can be quite precarious for us to anchor our self identity to what we do.

这是因为生活可能在瞬间就夺走这一切，就像我亲身经历的那样。

And that's because life can take away that what in an instant as I experienced myself.

对吧？

Right?

我一下子就从一名小提琴手变成了非小提琴手。

I went from being a violinist to not being a violinist just like that.

而相反，我学会了将自我认同锚定在做事情的原因上。

And instead, I have learned to anchor my self identity to to why I do something.

那我这话是什么意思呢？

So what do I mean by this?

我问自己，我究竟喜欢演奏小提琴的哪些方面？

I asked myself, what is it that I loved about playing the violin?

我意识到，其核心是一种对人际连接的深切需求。

And I realized that at its core was a deep need for human connection.

那就是让我充满动力的原因。

That is what made me tick.

我喜欢与我的音乐伙伴、观众以及我音乐圈中的每个人建立亲密的联系。

I loved feeling close to my fellow musicians, to members of my audience, to everyone that was in my musical orbit.

音乐是一种美妙的媒介，让我能够与他人建立深刻的情感连接。

And music was this beautiful vehicle through which I could achieve that deep emotional connection with other people.

即使我失去了小提琴，也不意味着我失去了最初让我热爱它的那份东西。

And just because I lost the violin did not mean that I lost what led me to love it in the first place.

玛雅的这部分实际上依然完好无损，它可以成为一种指南针，帮助我指引下一步的方向。

That part of Maya was actually still very much intact, and it could serve as a compass of sorts to help guide me towards my next steps.

我的意思是，当时我并没有意识到，我没有去思考过‘为什么’和‘什么’，以及它们如何构成我的自我认同。

I mean, at the time I wasn't aware I wasn't thinking about, you know why versus what and how that might constitute my self identity.

但事实证明，我自然而然地被那些滋养我内心深处需求的事业所吸引。

But it turns out that I naturally gravitated towards pursuits that fed this deep part of me.

我开始做我的播客，这算是计划的小调整。

I in starting my podcast, a slight change of plans.

这一切都围绕着在公寓楼的房间里与人建立深刻的情感联系，倾听来自世界各地人们关于转变的精彩故事。

It was all about forging deep emotional connections with humans from my closet in my apartment building, you know, but talking with people about their incredible stories of change all over the world.

然后我写了《改变的另一面》，多年来采访了无数人，花了数十小时深入探究他们的生命故事和人生叙事。

And then writing The Other Side of Change in which I interviewed people over the course of years, you know, dozens and dozens of hours probing their life stories and narratives.

这也满足了我对情感连接的深层渴望。

That was also feeding this deep desire for emotional connection.

因此，我现在认为自己是一种在与他人对话中茁壮成长的人，享受与他人建立深刻联系的感觉。

And so I now see myself as the kind of person who thrives when in conversation with others who loves the feeling of being deeply connected to other people.

而生活实际上无法夺走这份热情。

And life can't actually take that passion away from me.

所以，当我现在思考自我认同时，它显得更能抵御变化。

And so when I think about my self identity now, it feels more resilient to change.

它更加坚韧、持久，即使生活剥夺了我作为作家或播客主持人的能力，我依然能找到其他方式表达这一部分的自己。

It feels more durable and long lasting and and that even if life takes away my ability to be a writer, to be a podcaster, there will still be other outlets through which I can express this part of myself.

因此，我想鼓励正在聆听的人们问问自己。

And so I would encourage people who are listening to ask themselves.

他们的动力是什么？

What is their why?

是什么让他们热爱自己所做的事情？

What makes them love doing the things they love?

也许是因为热爱服务，或热爱学习，或享受在技艺上不断进步的过程。

Maybe it's a love of service or a love of learning or seeing themselves improve at a craft.

又或者是因为拥有一个表达创意的出口。

Or maybe it's having a creative outlet.

如果你能这样定义自己，

If you can define yourself.

那么你就拥有了一种持久而稳固的自我认同，即使在经历重大变化时也能保持不变。

In that way, then you have this durable, robust self identity that will persist even if you're navigating a big change.

是的。

Yeah.

这是一种看待事物的绝佳方式。

It's a great way of looking at things.

你知道吗，你所做的事情，只是你扮演的一个角色。

You know, what you what you do, it's just a role that you play.

它并不是你的本质。

It's not who you are.

对吧？

Right?

我曾经听你说过，你不喜欢大人问孩子‘你长大后想做什么’这个问题。

And I've heard you once say that you don't like it when adults ask children the question, what do you want to do when you grow up?

我理解得对吗？

Did I get that right?

你不赞成这个问题？

You're not a fan of that question?

我只是觉得，我们太强调‘做什么’才是持久和重要的，而我也想问孩子们：‘你长大后想成为什么样的人？’

I just think that we are reemphasizing that the what is what is what's going to last and be important when I I want to also ask kids, who do you want to be when you grow up?

你想成为怎样的人？

What kind of person?

你的价值观是什么？

What are your values?

对你来说，什么才是重要的？

What's going to matter to you?

你希望回馈他人吗？

Do you want to give back to others?

你希望过一种始终充满智力挑战的生活吗？

Do you want a life in which you're constantly intellectually stimulated?

你希望成为一个冒险家吗？

Do you want to be an adventurer?

我希望人们能思考个性和品格特质，以及如何培养这些品质。

I want people to think about personality and character traits and how they might cultivate those.

如果我不介意问一下，我很想知道，关于你做的这个出色的播客，你的初衷是什么？

And if you don't mind my asking, I'm curious to know when it comes to this brilliant podcast that you have, what is your why?

我想知道，是什么驱使着你？假如我告诉你：‘抱歉，鲁甘，你的播客明天就要停播了’，那时你的初衷会是什么？还有，你还会通过哪些其他方式来延续这份热情？

What do you think motivates you such that if I were to tell you, I'm so sorry, Rungan, but the podcast is going to go away tomorrow, What that why would be and and other outlets through which you might feed that passion?

这是个很好的问题。

That's a great question.

我以前从来没想过这个问题。

It's not one I've thought about before.

我觉得这个播客满足了我视为核心价值的东西，那就是好奇心。

I would say what this podcast does for me is feeds what I consider to be a core value of mine, which is curiosity.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

我是个非常好奇的人。

So I'm a very curious person.

说实话，我觉得我一直都是，而且我认为每个人其实都是，但有时候这种天性被教育抹杀了。

I think I've always been, frankly, I think everyone actually is, but I think it sometimes gets schooled out of us.

但我确实认为自己是个非常好奇的人。

But I certainly believe myself to be a very curious person.

我觉得这个播客以最美妙的方式让我探索这份好奇心。

And I feel that this podcast allows me to explore that curiosity in the most wonderful way.

在过去的八年里，我一直在认真思考我如何以及为什么选择嘉宾。

And I have thought long and hard over the last eight years as to how and why I pick guests.

随着播客越来越流行，人们开始把做播客当作不错的商业项目，团队会监控算法并选择能带来流量的嘉宾，我对这些我都了如指掌。

As podcasting has become more and more popular and people are starting podcasts as good business ventures and they have teams who monitor algorithms and choose guests who are gonna perform, I'm aware of all of that.

但我对此持反对态度，心想：这对那些想玩这种游戏的其他播客主来说很棒。

And I I rebel against it and go, that's great for other podcasters who wanna play that game.

但这不是我想玩的游戏。

It's not the game I want to play.

这个节目的每一位嘉宾都是我亲自挑选的。

I choose every single guest on this show.

我自己会去研究每一位嘉宾。

I research the guests myself.

这是我探索自身好奇心的方式。

It is my way of exploring my own curiosity.

我不但认为这提升了对话的质量，也认为这促成了节目的持久性，让我在八年后的今天依然热爱这份工作。

Not only do I think that contributes to the quality of the conversation, I think it also contributes to longevity and why I still love doing this eight years on.

因为我不是为了外部的指标在做这件事，而是为了内部的指标，也就是我自己的好奇心。

Because I'm not doing it for an external metric, I'm doing it for an internal metric, which is my own curiosity.

所以你问题的下一部分是，如果它一夜之间消失了，我该如何继续满足这种价值？

So the next part of your question is, you know, if if it disappeared overnight, how would I still feed that value?

这真是个好问题。

And it's a it's a great question.

我会想念它的。

I I would miss it.

当然。

Sure.

对吧？

Right?

当然了。

Of course.

或者如果人工智能接管了，再也没人需要真实的播客了。

Or if AI takes over, nobody ever needs now real podcasts anymore.