如何在任何年龄治愈身体、改善平衡并更好地活动（足部健康的新科学）——吉姆·杜纳 #502

当然，还有运动员。

And, of course, there's athletic people.

还有那些普通中年人，他们只是想正常地过日子。

There's regular kind of middle aged people trying to go about their lives.

我认为儿童应该一直穿这种鞋，而不是穿有缓冲的鞋子。

I think that there's real there's real utility for children to stay in them and not go into cushion shoes.

我真的这么认为。

I I really do.

我在这档节目中多次谈到过这一点，但我同样觉得，那些在平衡和行动上遇到困难的老年人也是如此。

I've spoken about that many times on this show, but I also feel elderly, the elderly in society who are struggling with balance and movement.

我一直想，为什么要把一个平衡能力有问题的人放进离地面更远的缓冲鞋里呢？

I've always thought, why would you put somebody struggling with balance in a cushion shoe even further away from the ground?

对吧？

Right?

这对我来说毫无道理。

It doesn't make any sense to me.

我知道大概八九年前，我开始穿我妈妈的维沃鞋，她非常喜欢，尤其是在走路和活动的时候。

And I know maybe eight, nine years ago, I started wearing my mom in Vivo's and she loved them, you know, when she was walking around and moving.

所以，我认为平衡是关键。

So, yeah, I think balance is key.

如果你离地面更近，你的平衡性会比站在高高的缓冲鞋里更好，因为那种鞋让你的脚和大脑无法从地面获得反馈，地面是不稳定的。

If you're closer to the ground, you're gonna have better balance than if you're further up from the ground and you're in these cushions where your your brain and your foot can't actually get the feedback from the ground because it's unstable.

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

这里面有很多内容。

There's a lot in that.

有很多

There was a lot

就在其中。

in that.

我要先蓄力，然后放开。

I'm gonna wind up and let it loose.

所以这实际上很好地延续了我们之前讨论的内容，即人们可以测试足部功能的各个方面，即使他们没有疼痛。

So it actually does flow on very well from what we were talking about, about the aspects of foot function that people can test to see how their feet are functioning even if they don't have pain.

我们谈到了脚趾的活动，谈到了平衡，这些都是非常棒的练习，即使只是主动地伸展脚趾，或尝试单腿站立或各种站姿。

So we talked about the toes play, we talked about balance, and again those are great exercises to do, even just trying to actively splay at your toes and trying to balance on one leg or in various stances.

尝试踮起脚尖。

Trying to go up onto your toes.

首先，你真的能将身体重量前移，让脚跟离地，并保持这个姿势吗？

First of all, can you actually lean your body weight forward, hover your heels off the ground and maintain that position?

这会加载前脚掌，让你获得大量关于足部与脚踝之间控制力的信息。

That is loading the forefoot and it's giving you a lot of information about the control that you have between the feet and the ankle.

所以这既是一个测试，也是一个很好的练习。

So that's a test and also a good exercise.

然后是提踵动作，大多数人对此都很熟悉，就是尽可能高地抬起脚跟，靠在墙上或厨房台面上做这个动作，能很好地测试你的力量和活动度。

And then going up into a calf raise which most people are familiar with where you're just lifting your heels up off the ground as high as you can, leaning against a wall or kitchen counter is good for that just to truly test your strength with this one and mobility.

所以你能光脚做这个吗？能抬多高？

So can you do that barefoot and go into how far do you get up?

这些不仅是好的测试，也是训练足部功能基本要素的好练习。

These are good tests and also good exercises to train the basic fundamentals of foot function.

大多数人会发现他们在某些方面有困难，尤其是因为鞋子的影响；换成能促进更自然足部功能的鞋履通常能解决很多问题，但如果你不做这些练习来支持转换，换鞋会更难。

Most people will find that they'll struggle with some aspects of that, especially just because of the shoes, and switching or transitioning to footwear that promotes more natural function can often resolve a lot of that, but it can be harder to switch or transition to shoes if you're not doing those exercises to support that.

即使你只换了那种鞋子，现代环境中的挑战仍然不足以培养出强健功能的足部。

And even if you do only switch to those shoes, there still isn't enough challenge in our modern environment to create thriving functional feet.

鞋子确实是一个非常重要的切入点，但如果你想要真正强健、功能良好的足部，仅换鞋往往还不够。

It's a good example that the shoes are a really important place to go, but also often not enough if you want to create really thriving, functional feet.

关于鞋履，自从我加入足部集体组织六年来，我们一直在深入思考这个问题，尝试过多种记忆法和首字母缩略词，最终确定了五个F。

So when it comes to footwear, we have been thinking about this a lot over the past I've been involved with The Foot Collective for six years and we've gone through a bunch of different mnemonics and acronyms for how to think about footwear and we've landed on the five Fs.

它们在重要性上是分层级的，同时在你逐步实践这五个F时也遵循同样的顺序。

So first, they're kind of hierarchical in terms of importance but also hierarchical in terms of the order in which you should progress down the five f's.

第一个是足型匹配。

Foot shaped is the first one.

鞋型设计指的是鞋子或凉鞋最宽的部分位于脚趾尖端。

Foot shaped meaning that the widest point of the shoe or sandal is at the tips of the toes.

当你观察婴儿的脚时，他们会自然地长成脚趾尖最宽的形状（忽略罕见的遗传异常），这种形态本应持续下去，除非受到外部压力挤压。

So when you look at a baby's foot, they come out and accepting any rare genetic conditions, their feet are the widest at the tips of the toes, and that would continue except for some kind of external pressure that would cramp them.

脚应该在脚趾尖处最宽，因此鞋子也应如此设计。

The feet should be widest at the tips of the toes, and therefore so should the shoe.

接下来的F是‘固定’，鞋子应牢固地固定在脚后跟上，仅需稳定贴合脚部，避免脚趾被迫以奇怪的方式用力来维持鞋子不脱落。

And next f is fixed so it should be fixed to the back of your heel and just fixed to your foot so that your toes don't have to work in odd ways to keep the shoe on your foot.

如果你穿人字拖或凉鞋，脚趾带没有连接在脚后跟上，那么你走路时要么得外翻双脚来防止鞋子脱落，要么就得用脚趾抓地来固定鞋子。

So, if you wear a flip flop or a sandal the thongs aren't attached to the back of your heel and therefore you either have to turn your feet out to keep them on as you walk or your toes have to claw to keep them on as you walk.

因此，鞋子固定在脚后跟上非常重要。值得注意的是，你不需要同时过渡到‘鞋型设计’和‘固定’这两点。

So fixed to your heel is really important And what's important to note there is you don't need to transition to foot shaped and fixed.

它们不会造成任何过度负荷的问题，只会解决现有问题。

They will not cause any issues of overload, they will only solve issues.

如果你从一双窄而尖头的鞋子换到鞋型设计合理的鞋子，即使只是这一项改变，也能显著改善拇外翻或莫顿神经瘤的症状；同样，对于足底筋膜炎，仅更换为鞋型设计合理的鞋子，也能大幅减轻足部承受的压力。

So if you go from a narrow pointy shoe and you've got bunions or Morton's neuroma, just changing to a foot shaped shoe same goes for plantar fasciitis, just changing to a foot shaped shoe can make a big difference to the experience of the loads in your feet.

你是说好吧。

Are you saying okay.

让我们在这里说得清楚一点。

Let's let's get really clear here.

所以有极简主义或赤足鞋，对吧？这些鞋通常都具备这些特点：宽鞋头、脚后跟固定、通常没有脚跟到脚掌的落差，对吧？

So there's minimalist or barefoot shoes, right, which are well, what typically have these features anyway, a wide toe box, your ability to fix your heel, no heel to toe drop usually, right?

当然，这些特点的程度有所不同。

There's obviously degrees of this.

你是说，即使不穿赤足鞋，只要解决前两个问题——让脚趾有足够空间，脚后跟贴合得当——即使仍然保留缓冲设计，也能为人们带来巨大改善吗？

Are you saying that simply addressing those first two, even if you don't go to a barefoot shoe, so even if you stay within cushioning, but you have room for your toes and you've got the proper fit for your heel, that in and of itself can have huge improvements for people.

当然。

Absolutely.

好的。

Okay.

我认为这是一个非常重要的观点。

I think it's a really important message.

确实是。

It is.

这真的很重要，因为很多人把普通鞋或传统鞋与赤足鞋看作非黑即白的选择。

It is really important because a lot of people think about this, you know, normal shoes or conventional shoes and barefoot shoes as this black and white Yeah.

但实际上这是一个连续谱。

Either or, but it's actually a spectrum.

所以5F帮助人们在这个谱系中找到适合自己的方式，降低因过度使用双脚而导致受伤的风险。

So 5F's help people navigate that spectrum in a way that reduces the chance of them overloading their feet and ending up with an injury.

因为如果你清楚这一点，我们都知道一些故事：有人从传统的有缓冲、有跟垫、有支撑的鞋子直接换成了Vivo或Vibram之类的鞋，结果因双脚无法承受额外的负荷而受伤。

Because if you know this perfectly well, we've all had stories from people who have gone from conventional cushioned heeled supportive footwear and gone straight into something like a Vivo or Vibram and they end up with injuries because their feet aren't able to tolerate the extra load that comes.

他们常常一上来就开始跑步。

Often they go and start running in

现在。

these days.

是的，他们做得太多太快了。

Yeah, They do too much too soon.

他们以为自己的脚能像穿缓冲鞋时那样承受同样的负荷。

They expect that their feet will be able to handle what they were doing before in their cushion shoes.

是的。

Yeah.

但当你直接换成这种鞋子时，脚部承受的负荷模式就完全不同了。

But it's a completely different load profile on the feet when you change when you just switch to shoes like that.

对。

Yeah.

很多人无法直接适应完全没有缓冲、没有跟高的鞋子，因为这会过度增加身体某些部位的负担。

A lot of people can't tolerate going straight to no cushioning, no heel because it overloads certain parts of their body.

你可以换成足型设计且固定的鞋子。

Foot shaped and fixed you can switch to.

下一个要点是平底。

The next f is flat.

真正的赤足或自然鞋没有足跟与脚掌的高度差，脚掌中部也没有隆起，也就是没有足弓支撑。

So, truly barefoot or natural shoe has no heel toe drop and it also has no raise in the midfoot, which is like an arch support.

而且它也没有脚趾上翘。

And it also doesn't have a toe spring.

所以很多人认为‘平’只是指脚跟部分，但实际上它也涉及鞋的前端和中部。

So, a lot of people think of flat just as the heel, but it's also at the front of the shoe and in the middle of the shoe.

因此，一双真正的天然鞋在整个长度上都是平的，但对于某些人，尤其是那些有足部疼痛或疾病的人，这可能会对他们的踝关节活动度或小腿造成过大负担，从而引发问题。

So a true natural shoe will be flat all the way along, and for some people, especially if they've got some kind of foot pain or condition, that can be too much for their ankle mobility or calf and can end up with issues.

我还要指出，在某些情况下，比如拇僵硬症或拇趾固着症，大脚趾活动受限时，去除上翘或摇杆设计可能会带来问题。

I will also say that in certain conditions such as hallux limitus, hallux rigidus where the big toe doesn't move very well, then trying to remove the spring or rocker could be problematic

对某些人来说。

for some people.

所以这一切总是有其背景和细微差别，但我们现在讨论的是一般情况。

So there's always context and nuance within all of this, but we're speaking in generalities.

而对于绝大多数人来说，他们应该能够过渡到完全中性的脚跟到脚趾落差。

And for the vast majority of people, they should be able to transition to a fully neutral heel toe drop.

你这里说的只是日常活动，比如走路、去办公室、逛商店。

And you're talking here for just activities of daily living, walking, going to the office, going around the shops.

好处取决于你平时主要做什么？

The benefits come from kind of what are you doing most of the time?

如果你喜欢穿厚底缓震鞋跑步，而且跑的时候没有疼痛，我觉得这值得讨论一下。

If you wanna run with your thick cushion shoes and you're pain free when doing it, I think there's a conversation to be had around that.

但如果你其余时间都穿脚型鞋，且没有足跟到脚趾的落差，你依然能从中获得巨大好处，对吧？

But if the rest of the time you're in foot shaped shoes without a heel to toe drop, like, you're still gonna get huge benefits just from that, aren't you?

当然。

Absolutely.

很多人，尤其是经常赤脚在家的人，可以换成平底鞋。

A lot of people who, especially if they're barefoot at home a lot, they can switch to a flat shoe.

一般来说，你身体任何部位的疼痛越严重，你的系统对鞋履变化就越敏感。

Generally, the more pain you have in any part of your body, the more likely your system will be to be sensitive to changes in your footwear.

所以，如果你有背痛、膝痛或足痛，直接从有跟鞋换成平底鞋，可能会太快、太剧烈。

So if you've got back pain or knee pain or foot pain and you go straight to a different shoe, flat shoe from a heeled shoe, can be too much too soon.

现在市面上有很多品牌，我们已经全面考察过，这个光谱上的每个点都有相应品牌。

There are a lot of brands these days, and there's a literally, we've checked it all out, and there's brands at every point on this spectrum.

所以我们把这些都列在我们的网站上了。

So we've got all those listed on our website.

那网站是什么？

And then what is the website?

Thefootcollective.com。

Thefootcollective.com.

好的。

Okay.

所以如果你想了解，如果想走这条路，哪些是适合你的过渡鞋，就可以在我们的网站上找到这些信息。

So if you wanna see, well, which are good transition shoes for me if I wanna go down this path, then they can get that info on your website.

太棒了。

Brilliant.

是的。

Yeah.

所以，脚型鞋、固定型、平底、柔韧型是第四个。

So foot shaped, fixed, flat, flexible is the fourth one.

所以灵活性体现在你能否把鞋子卷成一团，能否沿着鞋的长度扭转它，鞋子是否能活动，这代表了脚在鞋内的运动情况。

So flexibility relates to can you roll your shoe up in a ball, can you twist it along the length of the shoe, does the shoe move, which represents how your foot is moving inside the shoe.

每只脚有26块骨头和33个关节，人体中关节存在的唯一目的就是为了实现运动。

So there's 26 bones, 33 joints in each foot, and the only reason for a joint to exist in the body is for movement to occur there.

你显然能注意到像大脚趾这样明显且大幅度的运动，但之前我提到过，脚会改变形状以吸收和产生力量。

You've obviously got movements like the big toe which are quite obvious and macro movements, but then I was talking before about how the foot changes shape to absorb force and produce force.

这些实际上是像跖骨这样的小关节的细微运动，这些运动对于地面适应性至关重要。

So that is actually small little movements of the joints like metatarsals, those movements are really important for adaptability on the ground.

所以如果你穿一双僵硬的鞋子，它实际上会阻止这种运动，就像手臂上的石膏或月球靴会阻止运动一样。

So if you wear a shoe that is rigid, it can actually stop that movement, just like a cast around your arm or a moon boot would stop that movement.

鞋子在较低的层级上起到了类似的作用，或者说影响较小。

The shoe does that on a lower level basically or less.

但那就是

But that's

这是一个非常有力的视觉形象，许多人走路时就像脚上戴着石膏一样。

a very powerful visual that many people are walking around with a kind of cast on their feet.

他们的脚无法正常运作，因为鞋子太僵硬了。

Their feet are not being allowed to function because the shoe is too rigid and stiff.

这简直太疯狂了，

It's pretty crazy,

对吧？

isn't it?

是的，确实如此。

It is, yeah.

一旦你理解了这一点并亲身体验过，你就很容易会想：我们是怎么走到这一步的，居然人人都穿着这种有缓冲的鞋子？

Once you understand this and you've experienced it, it's easy to look at it and go, how did we get to this point where everyone's walking around with these cushioned shoes?

我的意思是，你之前已经提到过一些原因了。

I mean, that's I mean, you've mentioned some of it already.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

这就像每个人都穿着背架或颈托走路，不让他们背部活动，然后当他们脱下背架时——这相当于从坚硬、有缓冲的鞋子换成平底、柔软、无缓冲的鞋子——这时你会意识到：哦，原来有这么多活动空间。

And it's it's akin to if everyone was walking around with a back brace or a neck brace and they weren't allowing their back to move and then when they do take the brace off which is the equivalent of going from a rigid cushioned shoe to a flat flexible shoe without cushioning then it's like, oh that's a lot of movement.

如果我穿了三十年的背架后突然脱掉，然后去健身房做杰斐逊卷腹之类的动作，我的身体肯定会崩溃，因为系统突然接收了太多它从未适应的刺激。

If I just took my back brace off after wearing it for thirty years and then tried to go and do a Jefferson curl or something at the gym, my body would be freaking out because it's so much input into the system that it's not used to.

所以，确实有必要逐步过渡到更柔软的鞋子，而且这并不是非黑即白的问题。

So there is a case for transitioning to more flexibility in a shoe, and again it's not black or white.

很多鞋子的柔韧性还不错，但不像Viva或Vibram那样的鞋子那么柔软。

A lot of shoes are decently flexible but not as flexible as say a Viva or Vibram or something like that.

进行我们推广和讨论过的那些锻炼，是为身体适应鞋子的柔软性做好准备的好方法。

Doing the exercises that we promote and that we've talked about are a great way to prepare your body for the flexibility of a shoe.

而且

And

最后一个F是‘感觉’，也就是脚底从地面获得的反馈。

the last f is feel which is just down to the feedback you get from the ground.

薄鞋底能提供大量的地面反馈，而厚实的缓冲鞋底则会在某种程度上像蒙住眼睛一样，让你与地面之间隔着更远的距离。

A thin sole will provide a lot of extra feedback from the ground, whereas a thick cushioned sole will blindfold your feet in a sense because there is more distance between you and the ground.

我们确实喜欢将脚比作眼睛的类比，因为它们是身体非常重要的感官，脚部获得的感觉能帮助我们恰当地适应地面，而无需一直低头看脚来了解情况。

We do like the analogy of the feet being like the eyes because they are very important senses of our body and the sensation that we get in the feet helps us adapt to the ground appropriately without having to look down at our feet the whole time to figure out what's going on.

例如，如果你踩到一根钉子，如果光着脚，你会感觉到钉子开始扎入并立即移开。

If you step on a spike, for example, then if you're barefoot, you'll feel that spike starting to go in and you'll come off it.

但如果你穿的鞋子很薄，就不会获得那么多反馈。我就遇到过这种情况，有一次穿着鞋底很薄的鞋子搬运木柴，当时我正拖着一根很重的木头（这么说吧），结果一根木棍刺穿了我的鞋。

But if you've a very thin shoe, you won't get as much of that input, and so this happened to me once, had a very thin sole shoe carrying firewood and I was trudging around with a very heavy log if I might say so, then stick the went through my shoe.

所以，这还是要看具体情况。

So, again, this is contextual.

并不是说你在任何地方都需要薄底鞋，但对于日常活动，比如在家里、外出或去健身房这些环境相对可控的地方，你实际上需要来自地面的反馈，以便能够适应它。

There's not it's not like everywhere you need to have a thin soul, but for things like getting around in your daily activities in a, you know, at home or out and about or going to the gym where the environment is relatively controlled, you actually want the feedback from the ground so that you can adapt to it.

是的。

Yeah.

我在看你们Instagram上的一些视频并为这次对话做研究时，记得你们The Foot Collective团队说过，你们认为足部健康有点像是一种入门药物。

I think when I was watching some of your videos on your on your Instagram and researching with this conversation, one of the things you said, I believe, is that you guys at The Foot Collective see foot health as a bit of a gateway drug.

对。

Yeah.

当你开始关注这一点并进入足部健康领域时，它往往会引导你养成其他有益的自然行为。

When you start opening your eyes to it and you get into foot health, it often leads to other helpful natural behaviors.

我想谈谈这一点。

I wanna talk about that.

但我自己以及许多我推荐试穿赤足鞋的朋友和家人，都发现一旦穿上，这些鞋子会出奇地舒适。

But one of the things I've experienced myself and many people, friends, family, listen to this podcast who I recommended try out barefoot shoes, as well as finding them once they use them incredibly comfortable.

人们经常提到的另一点是，他们更享受运动，并且感受到自己与地面之间真正的连接。

The other thing people often say is they enjoy their movement more and they feel a real connection between them and the grounds.

我也亲身体验过，现在正流行正念、活在当下、感受此刻的体验，而赤足鞋实际上是如何帮助你做到这一点的呢？

And I've experienced that, there's all the rage about mindfulness and being present and experiencing what you're experiencing in the moment, what what Barefoot shoes actually help you do that?

因为你真的能感受到地面。

Because you actually feel the grounds.

对吧？

Right?

因此，你以这种方式与你所做的事情建立了连接。

So you are connected in that way to what you're doing.

当然。

Definitely.

这很有趣。

And it's funny.

我也让我妈妈穿上了赤足鞋，她的反馈是：哦，这就像打开了一整个全新的感官世界。

I got my mom into barefoot shoes as well, and she her feedback was, oh, it's like a whole new world of sensation has opened up.

我能感受到地面。

Like, I'm feeling the ground.

我们的脚好像被蒙住了很久，一旦你开始赤脚走路或穿赤足鞋，尤其是在自然环境中，开始感受到地面的各种纹理以及这些纹理对脚的影响时，就像突然摘掉了眼罩，你会说：哇，日出真美啊，你终于能体验到这些原本无法感受到的感官体验。

And it's kinda like our feet have been blindfolded for so long and once you start to walk around in either barefoot or in barefoot shoes, especially in natural environments and you start feeling all the textures that are on the ground and the way that those textures affect your feet, then it's like you've suddenly taken your blindfold off and you're like, the sunrise is really nice, know, you're getting to get these experiences that you wouldn't otherwise.

如果你一直戴着眼罩，或者半透明的眼罩，当你去看日出或日落时，可能会觉得光线特别刺眼。

If you'd had a blindfold, and this kinda goes to the same point, if you've had a blindfold on most of your life or a semi translucent blindfold, if you go and look at a sunrise or sunset, it might actually be really bright.

它感觉非常明亮，甚至可能太亮了，但一旦你适应了，就会发现这是一幅美丽的景象。

It feel really bright, it might be too much for your eyes, but then once you adjust, then it's this beautiful scene.

所以，脚部的感官体验也是同样的道理。

So it's the same kind of thing when it comes to the sensation in our feet.

这可能会感觉很多。

It can feel like a lot.

当人们第一次赤脚走路时，尤其是不习惯的人，走在碎石、树皮或其他天然纹理的地面上，会感到刺痛和疼痛。

When people go barefoot first, especially if they're not used to it, they go on gravel or bark or some kind of natural texture and it's spiky and hurts.

但最终，这种感觉会非常好。

But eventually, it just feels really good.

它实际上就像一次舒适的按摩，我们称之为‘维生素T’——即‘纹理维生素’，这确实是对脚部的一种营养，让压力和纹理作用于脚底。

It actually feels like a nice massage and we actually refer to it as vitamin t, vitamin texture, and it's actually, again, like a nutrient for the foot to have pressure and texture go through it.

是的。

Yeah.

每当我住在有碎石路的地方，我都会赤脚走在上面，因为我知道十年前或十五年前我根本做不到。

Whenever I'm staying somewhere where there's kind of gravelly drives, I'm always out barefoot on them because I know ten, fifteen years ago I couldn't.

那时会太疼了，因为你的脚很紧绷。

Would have been too painful because your feet are tight.

你无法放松。

You don't relax.

你不能走碎石路的原因，并不是因为你脚部敏感，或者天生遗传了敏感的脚，而是因为长期缺乏正确的足部使用，导致足部无法适应这种刺激。

The reason you can't walk on gravel isn't necessarily because you've got sensitive feet or you've genetically been born with sensitive feet is because because of the inputs and because of that, you haven't used the feet properly for so many years that it's too much.

但如果你循序渐进地练习，就会越来越容易，最终甚至能轻松走在相当尖锐的碎石路上，完全没问题。

But if you do little bits, it gets easier and you can get to the point where you can actually walk on some pretty sharpish gravel stones, no problem at all.

你只需要多加练习。

You just gotta practice.

是的。

Yeah.

我们常说，自然的足部功能是长期自然刺激的结果。

We we talk about natural foot function being a product of natural inputs over time.

有些人可能会对‘自然’这个说法提出质疑，这在某些方面是合理的，但如果你仔细想想，足部真正的自然刺激就是频繁多变的运动、压力和纹理接触、温度变化。当足部长期接触这些自然刺激——尤其是从小就开始，或者从任何年龄开始逐步增加——其结果就是足部功能变得更自然：更强壮、更稳定、更灵活、更适应，同时更敏感但更具韧性。

So natural is sort of people push back against that, rightly so in some ways, but if you really just think about it, the natural input for the feet is frequent variable movement, pressure and texture exposure, temperature exposure, and when they're exposed to natural inputs over time, especially from a young age, even from any age, gradually exposed to more natural inputs, the product or result is more natural function, so you become more strong and stable, more mobile and adaptable, more sensitive but resilient.

你走在碎石路上时，不会想‘我怎么什么都感觉不到’。

You're not walking on that gravel going oh I can't feel anything.

你会感受到很多，但你对这种感觉已经具有韧性，甚至会觉得很舒服。

You're feeling it a lot but you're resilient to that sensation and it can feel quite nice.

而长期的非自然刺激会导致脚部变弱、不稳定、僵硬、僵直，并且过度敏感。

Whereas unnatural inputs over time create weaker, less stable feet, stiff, rigid feet, and hypersensitive feet.

问题是，如果你在长时间缺乏自然刺激后突然大量进行这些自然刺激，它们反而可能造成伤害。

The issue is the natural inputs can become damaging if you try to do too much of them too soon after a long time

是的。

Yeah.

因为对我来说，自然的问题是：在你的观点中，如果社会上的孩子从小在家赤脚，不穿鞋，也不被穿上厚底缓冲、脚趾狭窄、有跟差的鞋子，会怎样呢？

Spending because the natural question for me to ask it is in your view, if across society kids were brought up where they were spending a lot of time barefoot at home, not wearing shoes in the house, and they were not being put in thick cushioned shoes with narrow toe boxes and heel to toe drops.

假设有一个国家——我相信现实中确实存在这样的例子——孩子就是这样成长的，那么这些人在成年后，脚部能力自然会不同，对吧？

Let's say you have a a country, and I'm sure we've got examples of this anyway, where this happens, you're gonna find that of course there is a different capability of those humans when they're adults, right?

他们的脚会更不敏感。

They're gonna have less sensitive feet.

我们知道，许多不穿厚底缓冲鞋的社会中，人们很少得足底筋膜炎。

We know that a lot of societies who aren't in these thick cushion shoes don't get plantar fasciitis.

这种病根本不存在。

It doesn't exist.

对吧？

Right?

我觉得拇外翻也是同样的情况。

I think it's the same with bunions.

是的。

Yeah.

实际上有一个叫My Foot Function的团体正在斯里兰卡进行一项研究，比较该国不同地区穿鞋和不穿鞋人群的足部状况，也就是穿鞋和不穿鞋的人群。虽然这项研究尚未发表，但基本发现是：不穿鞋的人群中拇外翻确实存在，但非常罕见。因此，拇外翻确实存在一定的遗传易感性，但我认为你曾在播客中提到过这一点，我确信我听过——基因就像是上膛，而环境才是扣动扳机的因素。

There's actually a group called My Foot Function who are doing a study in Sri Lanka and comparing shod members of the society and unshod members, so people who wear shoes and don't, in different regions of that country but in Sri Lanka or in Sri Lanka, and they haven't published the study yet, but basically bunions do exist in unshod populations but they are very rare and so there is some genetic predisposition when it comes to bunions but I think you've talked about this in the podcast, I'm pretty sure I've heard you talk about it, the genes are like loading the gun and the environment pulls the trigger.

对大多数人来说，拇外翻的遗传易感性需要被某种环境触发，比如长期穿平底鞋、长期在平坦硬地面上行走，或者脚踝或其上方部位因受伤而活动受限，这些都会引发拇外翻的形成过程。

For most people, genetic predisposition to bunions has to be triggered by an environment is eschew and constant flat level ground, sometimes an injury that restricts something in their ankle or something upstream, that triggers the process of the bunion forming.

但确实，鞋子是大多数足部问题的主要因素——我不会说它是根本原因，但它绝对是主要的诱因，这也很合理，因为鞋子是我们双脚的主要环境。

But yeah, it is the case that shoes are a major, I'm not going to say the root cause, but they are a major contributing factor for most foot conditions, which makes sense because the shoe is the primary environment of our feet.

但鞋子也会让问题持续下去，对吧？

But they can kind of perpetuate it, can't they?

我的意思是，我相信如果一个人积极锻炼，是有可能拥有非常出色的足部功能的。我们待会儿一定会聊聊你们在The Foot Collective推广的那些练习，真的非常棒，而且很有趣。

I mean, I think I do believe it is possible to have exceptionally good foot function if you're working on it and we're definitely gonna talk about the kind of exercises you guys at The Foot Collective promotes, which is just fantastic and a lot of fun.

我相信，如果你真的在认真锻炼这些方面，即使穿一些不太理想的鞋子，你仍然会没事的。

I do believe that if you're really working on that stuff, you can probably get away with going in some suboptimal shoes and you're still gonna be okay.

我相信这是可能的。

I do believe that's possible.

我认为更多人会获得比他们想象中更多的益处。

I do think more people will experience benefits and benefits than THINK.

我鼓励大家至少尝试一下，或者至少按照你们网站上描述的流程去体验一下：这可能会是什么感觉？

And I would encourage people to try them at least, or at least go through the process you guys outlined on your website to go, well, what might this feel like?

我会感觉有多好？

How good might I feel?

如果我的脚开始正常运作，我的身体和运动效率会感觉有多好？

How good might my body feel and my efficiency of movement feel if my feet were starting to work properly?

在我们开始这些锻炼之前，我想再聊一下赤足鞋，因为很多人，当我提到这个话题时，都会问：那我有扁平足，这些鞋子适合我吗？

Before we get to those exercises, just wanna finish up on barefoot shoes for a minute, because a lot of people will, in fact, when I posted about this for people will say, well, what about, I've got flat feet, are they suitable for me?

我知道你已经提到过，这取决于你的扁平足是柔性的还是僵硬的。

And I know you've already mentioned it depends if it's a flexible flat foot or a rigid flat foot.

我仍然清晰地记得，当时每个人都说我有扁平足。

I can still remember so clearly that everyone told me I had flat feet.

多年来，足病医生一直给我配矫形鞋垫，但我得随身带着它们，还得在不同鞋子之间来回更换。

And for many years, the podiatrist put me in orthotics, but I'd have to take it everywhere with me and have to move it from shoe to shoe.

有一刻我心想，这简直太荒谬了，我当时才二十四、二十五岁左右，却得随身带着这个东西，只为能正常走路。

And at one point I thought, it's kind of ridiculous, I'm like 24 or 25 or something, I have to take this implement around with me everywhere just so I can function.

它确实能带来一些帮助，对吧？

And it would help a little bit for sure, right?

但我心想，我总不能接下来七八十年都这样生活吧。

But I thought I cannot be, I surely don't have to do this for the next seventy, eighty years of my life or whatever.

我之前也提到过，但我渐渐意识到足部健康有多么重要。

And I've covered this before, but I sort of got tuned into how important foot health is.

我想表达的重点是，十一年前，你看看我的脚，会说：‘哦，你啊？’别人一看就会说：‘荣的脚是扁平足。’

The kind of point I'm trying to get to is that ten, eleven years ago, you would have looked at my feet and said, oh, not you, people would look at them and go, oh, Rong's got flat feet.

但现在我的脚已经长出足弓了，对吧？

Well now I've got an arch in them, right?

所以通过使用我的脚，做一些足部锻炼，以及全天候穿赤足鞋（我在家时是赤脚的，就像许多亚洲家庭一样，我们在家不穿鞋）。

So by using my feet, by doing some foot exercises, by wearing barefoot shoes all the time when I'm wearing shoes, because I'm barefoot at home, like in many Asian houses, we don't wear shoes in our house.

脚弓已经形成了。

The arch is there.

对吧？

Right?

它并不是世界上最高的脚弓，但我现在确实有了脚弓，而以前没有。

It's not the highest arch in the world, but I now have an arch and I didn't.

所以我认为这对人们来说有一个关键的信息：这类状况是可以改变的。

So I think there's a key message there for people that this kind of stuff is changeable.

当然。

Definitely.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为人们低估了身体能够发生多大的变化。

I think people underestimate how much their body can change.

重要的是要理解，身体会根据所承受的负荷和输入不断进行自我重塑。

And it's important to understand that the body is constantly remodeling itself based on the loads and inputs that it receives.

人人都知道，你可以在健身房锻炼肱二头肌，或者通过跑步来提升跑步能力。

Everyone knows that you can strengthen your biceps at the gym or you can get better at running if you run.

不知为何，传统鞋业和矫形行业看待脚的方式，与看待身体其他部位的方式截然不同。

For some reason, the traditional footwear industry and orthotic industry don't see feet in the same way that all see the rest of the body.

当我们网络中的足病医生接受足病学教育时，主流观点认为脚部肌肉太小，无法进行训练。

When podiatrists in our network went through podiatry school, the dominant narrative was that muscles in the feet were too small to be trained.

就像人们常被告知眼睛的肌肉太小、太难训练一样。

Similar to what people are told about their eyes, their muscles are too small to be trained as too hard.

但如今，这两种观念正在发生变化。

But both of those narratives are changing now.

人们开始意识到，我们既可以训练眼睛，也可以训练双脚。

Are realizing that we can train our eyes and we can train our feet.

现在已有大量研究证明，增强足部力量是可行的，改善足部功能也是可能的，而且穿赤足鞋或简约型鞋履，仅仅通过以传统鞋子无法提供的受力方式刺激双脚，就能提升足部力量。

Are plenty of studies now that show that foot strengthening is possible, improving foot function is possible, and also that wearing barefoot shoes or wearing minimalist footwear can improve your foot strength as well simply by the fact that it's loading up your feet in ways that they don't get loaded in traditional shoes.

是的

Yeah.

有一项研究在利物浦大学进行，显示成年人穿着极简主义鞋子四个月后，足部力量平均提升了大约60%到62%。

There one study, was at the University of Liverpool that showed four months of wearing minimalist shoes, foot strength on average in adults went up by, I think, 60 or 62% from it ballpark there.

如果你把这个结果和身体其他部位对比一下，假设你平时做力量训练，有人告诉你四个月内你的二头肌能增强62%，而且还不用去健身房专门练二头肌，只是日常走路就能做到——很多人肯定会说：我想要这种效果。

If you just think about that in relation to any other part of the body, if you are into your strength training and someone could tell you in four months, your biceps will get 62% stronger, but you're not having to go to the gym and be doing biceps, just by walking around, so many people will be like, I want that.

我加入。

I'm in.

我加入，但这项研究显示，对大多数成年人来说，只要穿裸足鞋，甚至不需要做任何锻炼，你只是正常生活、走动，足部肌肉就会变得稍微更活跃。

I'm in, but that's what that study shows for most adults, just by wearing barefoot shoes, you're not even doing any exercises, You're just going around your your life, and your foot muscles are having to be a bit more active.

这简直太不可思议了，不是吗？

It's it's nuts, isn't it?

是的

Yeah.

这简直是唾手可得的成果——只需改变脚部的环境，就能显著提升其功能，这太惊人了。

It's such low hanging fruit when it when the fact that you can simply change the environment of your foot and radically improve their function is amazing.

在某个时候，你必须优先考虑足部功能，而这完全取决于你所接受的教育。

At some point, you'll have to prioritize your foot function and it's just down to the education you receive.

但总结一下关于鞋履的讨论，我认为对很多人来说，要决定‘我得买脚型鞋、固定型鞋，还得买这种鞋、那种鞋’可能会让人感到不知所措，虽然对某些人来说这可能是必要的。

But to wrap up that footwear conversation, I think it can be a bit overwhelming to people to go okay I have to buy shoes that are foot shaped and fixed and then I have to buy shoes that are this and then I have to buy shoes that are this that might be necessary for some people.

你可以通过两种方式来做。

There's two ways you can do it.

你可以逐步遵循我们之前提到的五个‘F’原则，或者直接买一双完全自然的鞋子，比如Vivo，然后逐渐增加穿着时间。

You can kind of work down the spectrum of the five f's that we talked about or you can buy a pair of fully natural shoes like Vivo gradually spend more and more time in them.

我对这个策略的疑虑在于，如果你每天只能穿Vivo鞋半小时，其余时间都得穿那些不贴合脚型的窄鞋，而脚型对足部整体功能至关重要，尤其是如果你有某种足部问题，特别是前脚掌的问题，那么鞋型会带来巨大影响。

Where I have a problem with that strategy is if you're only able to spend half an hour in your Vivo's and the rest of the time you have to spend in your very narrow shoes that aren't foot shaped because the foot shape is so important for the overall function of the foot and especially if you've got any kind of condition, especially in the forefoot, then that shape of the shoe will make a massive difference.

所以，如果你的选项是每天只能穿Vivo鞋十分钟，其余时间都得穿缓冲鞋，那就选一双脚型设计的缓冲鞋。

So if your option is, I can only spend ten minutes in a Vivo and the rest of the time I have to wear a cushion shoe, then go for a foot shaped cushion shoe.

对鞋跟和其他方面也是一样。

Same with the heels, same with all of that.

但如果你觉得穿Vivo鞋很舒服，其余时间又经常赤脚或穿其他鞋，那就慢慢增加穿着时间即可。

But if you're like oh I feel fine in the Vivo's and the rest of the time I'm barefoot or whatever, then just build it up over time.

是的。

Yeah.

我只想就这一点说明，作为一名医生，这一点对我来说非常重要。

I I just wanna, on this point, mention that as a medical doctor, this point is really, really important to me.

我知道我们在对话中提到了几个品牌。

I know we've mentioned a few brands in this conversation.

Vivo被提及了。

Vivo has come up.

我的兴趣在于，越来越多的人通过足部锻炼、通过像您这样的项目，以及尝试和实验赤足鞋，体验到更好的足部健康带来的益处。

My interest is that more and more people experience the benefits of better foot health through foot exercises, through programs like yours, and yes, also by trialing and experimenting barefoot shoes.

这个播客与Vivo Barefoot有商业合作关系。

This podcast does have a commercial relationship with Vivo Barefoot.

我想明确说明这一点，但这次对话的目的并不是为了推广某个特定品牌。

I wanna make that super clear, but the point of this conversation is not to raise awareness of particular brand.

不是。

No.

对我来说，以及对你们The Foot Collective来说，这次对话的目的是提高人们对足部健康的认识。

The point of this conversation for me and for you guys at The Foot Collective is to raise awareness of foot health.

如果人们真的想尝试赤足鞋，如今有很多品牌都能提供这样的产品。

If people do wanna go down barefoot shoes, there are many brands these days that offer the capability to do that.

所以我只是想把这个观点说得很清楚。

So I just wanted to make that point really clear.

当然。

For sure.

我很高兴你提到这一点，因为如果人们不喜欢某种风格，或者负担不起他们听说的某个品牌，就可能对整个理念产生抵触。

I'm glad you brought it up because people can get turned off if they don't like the style or they don't have a budget for a certain brand that they hear about and then that can turn them off the whole thing.

所以我们The Foot Collective所做的，正如我们的名字所体现的，是试图联合各种鞋履品牌、专业人士以及热衷于分享信息、开发产品的热心人士，现在有越来越多的鞋履品牌推出不同款式、不同价位、覆盖5F光谱各个部分的产品。

So what we're doing with The Foot Collective and it it's in our name really, we're trying to create a collective effort of footwear brands, of practitioners, of enthusiastic people who are sharing information and building products and there so many footwear brands coming that are offering different styles, different budgets, different parts of that 5F spectrum.

正如我所说，我们的网站上有大量资源，可以帮助人们更好地了解和选择。

Like I said, there's we've got heaps of resources on our website that people can that just help people navigate that.

但确实，让人们知道这并不是一个

But, yeah, it's it's important that people know that it's not a

是的

Yeah.

非黑即白。

A black and white either or.

有很多不同的选择，总会有一些适合

It's there's there's a lot of different options, and there's gonna be something for

几乎每个人。

pretty much everyone.

是的

Yeah.

当然。

For sure.

好的。

Okay.

那么我们现在来谈谈你们在The Foot Collective所做的一切。

So let's now talk about, you you guys at The Foot Collective and what you have been putting together.

所以我们已经提到了，我提到过改善足部健康的两个方面。

So we we've mentioned you know, I mentioned those two sort of arms of improving foot health.

希望这个框架能帮助人们更好地理解这个问题。

Hopefully, is a useful framework for people to think about this.

一个是关于 minimalist 鞋子的问题，或者你如何过渡到穿它们，以及我们刚刚讨论过的那些内容。

One one is the the minimal issues or how you might transition into them and the sort of stuff we've we've just covered.

对。

Right.

现在我们来谈谈，我们所有人都应该做些什么来改善足部健康？

Now let's talk about what are the things that we should all be doing to improve our foot's health?

我们该如何每天把这些有益的刺激重新带回我们的双脚？

How can we start putting those inputs back into our feet each day?

正如我之前提到的，你们和你的商业伙伴以及朋友Mac，在我们开拍前的一个小时里，带我体验了一套足部训练动作，这太棒了，因为我本身已经做很多这类练习了，但这套动作真的非常出色，我能清楚看到它对人们有多大的帮助。

And as I've already mentioned, you guys have you and your business partner and your mates, Mac, had been here for the last hour before we started shooting, and you guys have taken me through a sequence on the soulmate, which is brilliant because I do a lot of this stuff already, but the soulmate was really, really good, and I can see how helpful it is to people.

所以，能不能谈谈你们是如何努力鼓励更多人重新与自己的双脚建立联系的？

So maybe talk about you guys and how you try and encourage more of us to get back in touch with our feeds.

当然。

Sure.

这实际上与我之前提到的内容有关。

Well, this actually relates to what I was talking about before.

我最初加入足部集体的原因是看到了他们出售的平衡梁，还有配套的平衡梁训练系统。

How I actually originally got into The Foot Collective was I saw the balance beams that they were selling and they were selling training systems with the balance beam.

我给创始人尼克发了邮件，说我想买一个平衡梁，虽然运到澳大利亚成本很高，但我真的很想要这个训练系统。

I emailed Nick who's the founder and I said I'd like to get a balance beam, it's going to cost a lot to get it over to Australia but I really want the training system.

因为像平衡梁这样的工具，或者类似的小物件，如果没有使用方法或进阶技巧，其实价值有限。

Because a tool like the Beam or a simple thing like that doesn't really have that much value unless you know how to use it or if you have tips on how to progress your use with it.

简而言之，我买到了平衡梁，开始频繁使用，摸索出了很多不同的使用方式，但也发现，有疼痛问题的人在面对这种平衡挑战时非常吃力，尤其是在一个直径只有50毫米的铝制或木制圆柱上站立时，足部承重也很难做到。

So long story short, I got a beam, started playing on it a lot, figured out a lot of different ways to use it, but also realized that the people in pain really struggle with the balance challenge and also the challenge to loading of their feet when they're standing on a 50 millimeters diameter piece of aluminum or wood.

所以Soulmate是一款全 cork 材质的足部恢复与平衡训练工具，结构非常简单：两个半球形软木块和一个内置的小滚轮，但它包含了恢复足部自然功能并持续探索所需的一切。

So the Soulmate is cork all in one foot restoration and balance training tool very simple it's literally two half domes of cork and a mini roller inside but it has everything you need to restore natural foot function and then continue to explore it.

因此，我们的整个标语是‘恢复，然后探索’。

So our whole tagline is restore to explore.

你不仅希望恢复足部的自然功能或摆脱疼痛，更希望探索足部功能在平衡与协调方面的各种可能性。

You don't want to just be restoring natural function or just be getting out of pain, you want to be then be exploring what's possible with your foot function through various aspects of balance and coordination.

同时，Soulmate本身并不是什么神奇的工具，它只是一个非常简单的概念。

At the same time, the soulmate itself isn't this magic tool, it is a very simple concept.

我不愿称之为神奇，但最强大的其实是围绕它的训练体系。

What is I'm not gonna call it magic, but what is the most powerful thing is the training system around it.

因此，我们希望尽可能将这套训练体系开源，以便

And so what we wanna do is open source as much of that training as possible so that

那是什么意思？

What does that mean?

开源？

Open source?

我们把所有内容都免费放在了YouTube和网站上。

Well, we have it all for free on YouTube and website.

在

On

而且我想说，我特别喜欢你们的一点是，你们在Instagram和其他采访中也提到过，你们和足部集体的同事们一样，是一家专注于足部健康和足部教育的公司。

that And I wanna say one of the things I love about you guys is that you've and I've heard you say this on Instagram and in other interviews, I've heard you and some of your colleagues in The Foot Collective on that you guys are a foot health, you're a foot education company.

你们希望尽可能免费地提供这些教育内容，你们的Instagram和YouTube频道上有大量资源，即使人们不想购买像Soulmate这样的工具，也能自行练习，我觉得你们在这方面所做的真的非常棒。

You wanna give people that education, wanna, as free as much as possible, there's loads of stuff on your guys' Instagram and on your YouTube channel that people can do, even if they don't want to get any tools like the soulmate, and I think that's really awesome what you guys are trying to do there with that.

是的，我们对此充满热情，因为我们不希望价格成为人们参与并开启足部健康之旅的障碍。我们确实认为Soulmate非常出色，也收到了很多积极反馈，但同时，不借助工具也能做很多事情，你完全可以从一些非常简单的日常行为开始，无需任何工具就能设计出改变。

Yeah, and we're really passionate about that because we don't want cost to be a prohibiting factor for people getting involved and starting their journey, so actually really think the soulmate is amazing and we get a lot of good feedback from it but at the same time there's so much that you can do without tools and there's a lot of very simple inputs that you can start designing in your life without the tools.

对很多人来说，从免费的方式开始往往是个绝佳的起点——先培养习惯，等你准备好进一步提升挑战时，再考虑购买工具，或者自己动手制作一个。

It's actually often for a lot of people that is a great way to start to start with something free, build a habit, and then when you're ready to progress the challenge, you might want to get a tool or you might want to make your own as well.

你觉得像刷牙时，每只脚单腿站立一分钟这样的做法怎么样？

What do you think about things like, you know, when we're brushing our teeth, you know, trying to do one minute on our left leg and one minute balancing on our right leg?

你对这类习惯有什么看法？

What do you think about habits like that?

是的。

Yeah.

我非常支持在日常生活中融入一些‘运动小点心’，尤其是将它们与固定习惯结合起来，比如刷牙、早上泡茶或喝咖啡时，把单脚站立、足部滚动这些简单动作融入其中，能很好地为你的双脚增加更多‘运动营养’。

I'm a big fan of in building movement snacks into your day, especially attaching them onto regular routines, so whether it's brushing your teeth or making your tea in the morning, tea or coffee, and aligning these simple habits like standing on one leg, rolling out your feet can be a really great way to add more of that movement nutrition for your feet into your day.

但与此同时，我也非常希望人们能养成一种专注的日常练习，每天抽出一点时间，不一定是一小时，可能从五分钟开始，但要真正专注于建立自身功能的基准，并逐步提升。

But at the same time I'm also very passionate about people developing a focused daily practice where they're actually taking the time out of the day, it doesn't have to be an hour, it might be five minutes to start with, but they're actually focusing on setting a baseline of their function and gradually improving it over time.

因此，我们在YouTube和网站上的练习内容就是帮助人们开始这样的训练。

So that's what our routines on YouTube and on our website will help people do is get them started.

我们有很多五分钟和十分钟的练习，人们可以循序渐进，逐步改善足部的血液循环、活动度、稳定性，而平衡能力其实也与足踝功能和身体其他部位的整合密切相关。

We have a lot of five minute routines, ten minute routines, and people can build up over time so that they improve the circulation of their feet, they improve the mobility, they improve the stability, and also the the balance really relates to the integration of the foot and ankle function with the rest of the body.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为这是一个非常关键的要点。

I think that's a really key point.

这不仅仅是孤立地改善足部功能。

So it's not about just improving foot function in isolation.

而是要关注这种改善如何影响身体的其他部分。

It's it's about how does that impact everything else.

而且，我们刚刚才做完这些。

And, you know, because we've just finished doing it.

对吧？

Right?

那么，我真正享受的是什么？

So, what did I really enjoy?

我享受的是它很有趣，对吧？

I enjoyed that it was fun, right?

它并不符合常规，但我喜欢活动身体，对吧？

It didn't fit, but I enjoy moving my body, right?

所以我从不把锻炼、活动或举重视为痛苦。

So I've never see exercise or moving or lifting weights as a pain.

我知道很多人是这么认为的。

I know many people do.

话虽如此，那感觉并不像锻炼。

Having said that, that didn't feel like exercise.

它感觉像在玩乐。

It felt like fun.

我迫不及待想让我的孩子们回家一起玩，因为我觉得他们也会觉得这个很有趣。

And I can't wait for my kids to get home to actually play because I think they're gonna have fun on this as well.

为了让人们知道这不只是给想变得运动的运动员做的，你其实是和各种各样的人一起做这个，对吧？

Just so people don't think this is just for athletic people who wanna be sporty, you do this with a whole variety of people, don't you?

包括像年纪大的人。

Including, like, people who are older.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

我们主要和40到80岁的人合作。

We mostly, we work with 40 to 80 year olds.

他们中的很多人有脚痛问题。

And a lot of them have foot pain.

你提到了训练中一个非常重要的方面，那就是游戏的元素，这很有趣，因为我喜欢从演化的角度看问题，而游戏是许多哺乳动物和所有聪明动物都普遍具备的一种进化特征，动物越聪明，就越倾向于玩耍。

So you touched on a really important part about training which is play aspect and it's interesting because again I like to look at the evolution of things and play is one of these evolutionary traits that is quite ubiquitous amongst certainly all mammals, all intelligent animals play and the more intelligent the animal, the more it tends to play.

这非常酷且有趣，因为玩耍是有风险的。

Which is quite cool and interesting because play can be risky.

所以小时候，你想爬树、摔跤，或者互相扔树枝和石头。

So as a kid growing up, you want to climb trees, you want to wrestle, you want to throw sticks and stones at each other.

玩耍伴随着风险，因此作为一种进化特征，它必须带来某种益处才能得以延续。

There is risk involved with play and so for it to survive as an evolutionary trait, needed to be some benefit to it.

显然，这种益处在于通过练习运动技能，让你成为一个更具适应性和韧性的移动者，这有助于你在自然环境中生存；同时，它还能让你与群体建立联系，与生活中的人建立深厚的社会纽带，从而帮助你生存。

Obviously that benefit is the practice of movement skills so that you can be a more adaptable and resilient mover which helps you survive in a natural environment, and also it's to connect with your tribe and to connect with the people in your life so that you have strong social community bonds which helps you survive.

这就是它存在的原因。在现代社会中，我们通常玩得不多，虽然孩子会玩，但他们的玩耍方式受到一定限制。

So that's why it exists We don't tend to play as much in our modern society, certainly kids play, but their play is a little bit restricted.

但玩耍实际上是一种巧妙地激发你想要运动的机制。

But what it does is it's sort of like a hack for your brain to want to move.

大多数人认为运动是一种苦差事，很辛苦，需要自律才能坚持，但玩耍绕过了这一切，直接让人觉得：哦，这真有趣。

Most people think about movement as a bit of a chore, it's hard work, it's something that they have to be disciplined in order to do, but play bypasses all of that and just goes, oh, this is fun.

我想去做。

I want to do it.

你可以通过平衡来玩耍。

You can you can play with balance.

平衡是一种绝佳的玩耍方式。

And Balance is an amazing way to play.

当人们一踏上平衡板或开始练习平衡时，通常都会露出笑容。

Like, soon as people get on a soulmate or start playing with their balance, usually there's smiles.

是的。

Yeah.

我从未见过有人开始练习平衡后，从上面下来时不笑的。

And it's very I've never seen someone start playing with their balance and not go smiles when they step off.

他们会说，这还挺难的。

They're like, that's kinda hard.

然后这会让你想再上去，重新再来一次。

And then it makes you want to get back on and do it again.

所以当你以一种低风险的方式进行时，比如只是从一块软木上走下来，而不是在平衡索道或超出你能力范围的东西上做，而且你也不是在金属片上做，而是在一块你可以切割并调整宽窄的软木上做，正如你所说，这整个过程就像游戏一样，能让你保持动力，甚至可能让人上瘾，这就是为什么我一直在坚持做下去。

So when you can do it in a low stakes way, where you're just stepping off a piece of cork, you're not doing it on a slackline or something that's way outside of your abilities, and also you're not just even doing it on a piece of metal, you're doing it on a piece of cork that you can split and make wider or narrower, like you said, it gamifies the whole process and keeps you motivated and actually can be quite addictive, which is why I've continued to do it for the all

这些年。

these years.

非常好的观点。

Such good points.

正如我所说，这感觉不像工作。

As I say, it didn't feel like work.

它只是感觉很有趣。

It just felt like fun.

是的。

Yeah.

而且我喜欢它的便携性。

And I love the portability.

所以，你知道，我经常在旅行或和家人度假时带着它。

So, you know, I will often travel when I'm traveling or go on holiday with my family.

我会把跳绳放进我的包里。

I'll put a skipping rope in my bags.

它很容易打包，能让我以一种非常简单的方式在任何地方保持活跃。

It's easy to pack and allows me in a very simple way to stay active wherever I am.

但我很确定，我的灵魂伴侣现在也会成为我行李中的一部分，因为它又小又轻。

But I'm pretty sure the soulmate is gonna be part of my packing now as well, because it's so small and light.

但我能想象到，它在酒店房间或任何地方的样子，就是我感受到的那种感觉。

But I can just see it in hotel rooms or wherever, what I felt.

而且，我经常赤脚走路。

And again, I spend a lot of time barefoot.

对吧？

Right?

我穿鞋的时候，一直穿赤足鞋。

I wear barefoot shoes all the time when I'm wearing shoes.

我再也不穿别的鞋子了。

I don't have anything else anymore.

但即便如此，是的，我们确实持续了相当长一段时间。

But even then, yes, we did it for quite a while.

阳光明媚，我们在花园里玩耍，你和我一起翻弄一些东西。

The sun was shining and we were playing in the garden, you were going through some stuff with me.

所以我不知道，大概三十到四十分钟吧，但最后我的双脚感觉特别轻盈自在，因为你并不是在刻意锻炼双脚，但不仅如此，你还跟我提过一件事，那就是之后我们都没有想别的事情。

So I dunno, thirty, forty minutes something, but my feet felt so light and free at the end because you're not trying to work your feet, but it wasn't only that, something you mentioned to me, which is afterwards that none of us were thinking about anything else.

我们没有想邮件、工作压力或生活压力。

We weren't thinking about emails, about work stress or life stress.

这是一种完全的正念状态。

It was complete mindfulness.

你完全专注于当下，因为你必须如此。

You were totally present because you had to be.

我认为，这类以游戏为基础的活动还有另一个好处：表面上看，你是在帮助我们改善足部健康、平衡能力以及全身功能，但这一切都是通过趣味的方式实现的。

And I think that's another benefit of these kind of play based activities that yes, underneath it, you're trying to help us with our foot health and our balance and how the whole body functions, but it's done through the lens of fun.

是的。

Yeah.

这非常深刻，我认为人们，尤其是成年人，往往把玩耍视为轻浮、可笑的事情，觉得那只是孩子才做的事，而成年人就得去健身、锻炼。

And it's very profound, and I think people tend to think of play, especially adults think of play, as sort of frivolous and silly and just something kids do, and for adults they just have to go and work out and do their fitness.

但把自己置于初学者的状态——也就是‘白带心态’——去探索，其实蕴含着巨大的力量。比如，你可能会面对一些限制，比如站在Soulmate上，或者玩Hacky Sack抛接，或者用头、膝盖保持平衡，你的身体会自然地学会如何围绕这些任务和限制进行协调，从而形成更具适应性的运动系统。

But there's so much power in putting yourself in a position where you are a beginner, known as white belt mentality, and just explore and you have some kind of constraint like a soulmate to stand on, or a hacky to throw and catch, or to balance on your head or on your knee or something like that, and your body sort of figures out how to organize around that task and around that constraint and it actually makes for much more adaptable movement systems.

而且，就像你说的，当你在Soulmate这样的表面上活动，哪怕是在平坦的地面、卷起来的毛巾，或者一块木板上，你也能大量活动双脚，但这种活动方式并不是为了追求灼烧感，也不是传统意义上的锻炼。

And also, like you said, when you're doing it on a surface like the Soulmate, even on flat ground or a rolled up towel or something like that, or a plank of wood, then you can be working your feet quite a lot, but not in a way where you're focusing on getting a burn necessarily, not in a traditional workout sense.

就像你说的，做完之后你的脚会觉得被锻炼过，但那种感觉是轻盈而自由的。

And like you said, your feet felt worked afterwards, but it was sort of light and free.

它们感觉被活动开了，而且感觉

They they felt moved, and they felt

我当时就想，你知道吗？

I was like, you know what?

这挺有趣的。

It's funny.

我甚至都不知道该用什么词来形容那种感觉。

I I don't even I don't even know what the word is to describe it.

我甚至都不会说它被锻炼了。

I wouldn't even call it worked.

有活力。

Alive.

它们感觉被解放了。

They felt liberated.

每天早上，你知道，我一出门，就会做几件事作为我的小例行程序。

Each morning, you know, when I get out, I've got a few things that I do as part of a little routine.

你知道吗？

You know?

我会在垫子上擦脚。

I do foot wiping on a mat that I have.

基本上就是唤醒双脚。

Just start to wake up those the feet basically.

我花园里有一根亚马逊基础款的绳子，我会来回走，能明显感觉到脚部在变形，能感受到一些紧绷的地方，然后它们逐渐放松。

I've got this, like, Amazon basics rope in my garden that I'll walk up and down on, and you can just feel your your foot morphing and you can feel some tight bits and then they loosen up.

对吧？

Right?

所以我本来就会做很多这类事情，但和你们一起进行的这种以游戏为基础的体验结束后，我的脚感觉更好、更自由了，这真的很棒，因为整个过程都很有趣。

So I do a lot of this stuff anyway, but that whole play based experience with you guys, the end of it, my feet felt even better and even freer, which is really cool because it was just fun.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

我想我们在这个点上停顿了很久，但所有听这个节目的人都知道，运动对健康很重要。

And I think I I know we're really pausing on this point, but everyone who's listening to this show knows that movement is important for health.

然而，很多人在动力上都有困难。

Yet so many people struggle with motivation.

他们说，我不喜欢运动，但总有一种运动是人们会喜欢的。

They say, I don't enjoy it, but there's always a movement people are gonna enjoy.

对吧？

Right?

但再说一遍，我们会回到社会 conditioning 这个话题上。

But again, I mean, we'll come back to societal conditioning.

如果你认为运动只关乎你在健身房做的重复次数，那就意味着你对运动的定义太过局限了。

If you think that movement is only about the amount of reps you do in the gym, like you've limited your view of what movement actually is.

如果你喜欢的话，这没什么不对，对吧？

Nothing wrong with that if you like it, right?

我不去健身房，对吧？

I don't go to gyms, right?

我基本上都在花园里，或者在厨房里做这些运动，就是这类活动。

I do all my stuff in my garden basically, or in my kitchen, like this kind of stuff.

我觉得，任何经历过我们所经历的这一切的人，都会看到你YouTube页面上和thefootcollector.com上的所有视频，这些内容都是为人们准备的。

And it's about, I can't see anyone who wouldn't go through what we went through and you've got all these videos on your YouTube page and on, I think thefootcollector.com, they're all there for people.

没有人会经历这些却不会感到快乐。

No one's gonna do that and not have fun.

是的。

Yeah.

我本来就想说，当你在适合自己水平的层次上玩耍时，平衡几乎是天生有趣的。

That that's what I was gonna say is balance is almost inherently fun when you are playing at the right level for you.

当你没有远远超出自己的能力范围，同时也不能太简单，我们就称之为‘金发姑娘区域’。

When if you're not going, too far beyond your abilities, and it also has to be not too easy, so we call it this Goldilocks zone.

不太难，也不太简单。

Not too easy, not too hard.

你在摇晃，但还是能完成，不过你必须全神贯注才能做到。

You're wobbling, you're able to do it, but it's you have to focus fully on the task in order to do it.

人们天生就觉得这种体验很有趣。

And, inherently, people find that fun.

我举办过很多很多场活动。

I've delivered many, many, many events.

我们实际上称它们为工作坊。

We actually call them we work calling them workshops.

现在我们管它们叫‘玩乐工坊’。

We call them play shops now.

我在澳大利亚和美国举办过无数次这样的活动，从未遇到过有人不喜欢玩平衡游戏。

I've delivered them all over Australia and America, and there has never been a time where someone doesn't enjoy playing with their balance.

这与我们的大脑有关，它能让你进入一种孩童般的状态。如果你观察孩子成长的过程——我有个18个月大的女儿，我特别喜欢看她成长——他们天生就喜欢测试自己的平衡能力。他们经常不稳，学习过程中跌跌撞撞，但始终不放弃，摔倒了就哭，然后立刻爬起来继续尝试。

It's something to do with our brains where it actually puts you in this childlike state because if you watch children growing up, and I've got a little 18 old daughter who I've been really loving watching growing up, they inherently want to test out their abilities with balance and they're off they're not stable a lot of the time they're not stable while they're learning but they keep going, they keep getting up, keep trying, they fall, they cry when they fall, they never give up.

他们就是不停地尝试，不停地尝试。

They just keep going and going and going.

现在Olive也在学着平衡，我能看见她盯着我在平衡木上练习，然后她看到地上有什么东西，就跑去试着站在上面。

And now Olive is trying to balance I can see her watching me on the soulmate and on my beams, and then she'll see something on the ground and go and try and stand on it.

人类天生就有一种训练平衡的内在需求。

And there's something inherent that humans want to train their balance.

平衡训练的另一个优势是，它对几乎所有人都很友好。

And the other thing about balance is that it's really accessible to pretty much anyone.

只要你能站起来走路，就一定能找到适合自己的平衡训练方式。

If you can stand up and walk around, there'll be some level of balance training that you can do.

甚至你都能做到。

Even you can do.

可及性非常重要，因为很多人，尤其是那些正在经历疼痛或长时间没有锻炼的人，一想到去健身房或跑步就会感到害怕。

Accessibility factor is huge because a lot of people, especially if they're in pain or they've been out of the habit of exercise for a long time, they think about going to the gym or going for a run and it just scares them.

平衡训练不需要大量的活动能力，也不需要很高的体能，但它能为你打下坚实的基础，让你随着时间推移逐步重返其他形式的锻炼，如果你有这个意愿的话。

Balance training doesn't involve a heap of mobility, doesn't involve a heap of fitness, but it can create a really solid foundation to then build upon over time to get back into those other aspects of fitness if that's what you wanna do.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为你提到的‘恰到好处的区间’是一个关键点。

And I think a key point is what you said about that Goldilocks zone.

如果你在做一件你能轻松完成的事，当然可以继续，但真正能带来成长和适应的，是你处于那种勉强能维持、很难保持的边缘状态。

So if you're doing something that you can comfortably do, sure, do it, but you're really gonna get the growth and the adaptation if you're on that edge where actually you can't quite it's hard to maintain it.

对，没错。

Oh, yeah.

我成功接住了。

I managed to catch it.

我刚刚抓住了。

I just got it.

那就是你的大脑开始成长，心想：是的。

That's where your brain's starting to grow and go, oh, yeah.

我差点就做不到了。

I can't quite do this.

我需要想办法安排好，才能做到这一点。

I need to, you know, put things in place so that I can do that.

所以我觉得这是一个非常重要的一点。

So think it's a really, really important point.

是的。

Yeah.

你会对这种进步的感觉上瘾。

And you can get addicted to that feeling of progress.

平衡垫很好，因为它能清楚地显示：当你把它放在某个位置时，如果你觉得吃力，之后你改变姿势或调整站位，就会发现原来一开始最难的位置现在变得很简单了，然后你会想：接下来该做什么？更难一点的动作是什么？显然，你可以调整站姿来增加平衡难度，或者踢球并接住它，或者在某些任务和变量中增加难度，有无数层复杂性可以探索，这让它变得非常有趣，而且像我说的，像游戏一样。

The soulmate is good because it makes it very obvious where if you put it in a certain position and then that is a struggle for you, and then you change that position or you change your stance over time and you're like oh now originally where I started is really easy and you go okay well what's next what's a harder thing and obviously you can change your stance to make the balance harder or you can throw kick and catch something, or you can, yeah, in certain tasks and variables to make it harder, and there's just endless layers of complexity that you can explore there, which makes it, yeah, very fun and like I said, gamified.

但我认为另一个关键点是，永远都不算晚。

But but I guess another key point is that it's never too late.

是的。

Yes.

对。

Yeah.

对吧？

Right?

因为我觉得

Because I think

有时候当我们谈论这类话题，比如赤脚鞋、平衡训练或改善足部健康时，有些人自然会想，是啊，但对我来说现在可能太晚了。

sometimes when we talk about things like this or barefoot shoes or balance training or improving your foot's health, some people naturally go, yeah, but it's it's kind of too late for me now.

我从三岁起就一直穿有缓冲的鞋子，现在我都70岁了。

I've been in cushion shoes since I was three and I'm now 70.

或者

Or

是啊，但我作为一个70岁的人，根本没法做好平衡训练。

yeah, but I can't really share my balance as a 70 year old.

不对，是吧？

Not true, is it?

完全不对。

Not true at all.

不。

No.

不。

No.

我们确实帮助过很多比70岁还年长的人，是的。

And we've had success with people, yeah, much older than 70.

我当初在澳大利亚创立Foot Collective时，曾在养老院做过一段时间的物理治疗师。

And I actually did a stint in residential aged care as a physio when I was setting up the Foot Collective in Australia originally.

当时我为那里的每一位居民都进行平衡训练。

And every resident there I was working on was balance.

但大多数人直到年纪大了、摔倒了，才意识到自己平衡有问题，那时物理治疗师才上门来帮他们站起来并训练平衡，但实际上，平衡训练本应作为一项预防措施，人人都应该从小就开始练习。

But most people don't realize they have an issue with balance until they're older and have a fall, and then they start training their balance because physios are coming to them and getting them up and training their balance, but it really should be something that everyone is training as a preventative measure for that.

就连孩子也很少训练平衡能力，即使是从事体育运动的运动员，通常也只有在受伤后试图康复时才会训练平衡。

Even kids don't really train their balance, even athletic athletes who are playing sports and so on tend to only train their balance when they have an injury and they're trying to recover from an injury.

同样，在另一端的老年人，也是在摔倒后才开始训练平衡。

Likewise, at the other end of the spectrum with older adults, they start training their balance when they have a fall.

平衡训练应该成为所有年龄段的普遍实践。

It should just be a ubiquitous practice across all generations.

我们这种训练方式的妙处在于，孩子可以和祖母一起玩，采用比祖母更难的站姿来锻炼。

And the cool thing with our kind of training is that a kid could play with their grandma and just work with the work with a harder stance than the grandma was working at.

同样，你和你的孩子也可以这样做。

And likewise, with you and your kids.

你和

And you And

我和你，你显然在进行这种训练。

me and you, you obviously were doing this raiders.

所以我们俩都能以对双方都有挑战性的水平继续玩游戏。

So we were able to still play the game at a level that is challenging for both of us.

我们可以很容易地做到这一点。

And we can very easily do that.

正如你所说，我可以和我的孩子一起玩，我的孩子也可以和他们的奶奶一起玩，这里有各种各样的可能性。

So as you say, I can play with my kids, my kids could play with their grandma, there's all kinds of things there.

你们一定深有体会。

You guys must get this.

我确实经常有这种感受。

I certainly get this a lot.

我见过这类评论，过去在现实生活中也经历过，比如，吉姆，但那些贝弗里克鞋子看起来实在不怎么样。

I've seen these sort of comments and I've experienced them in real life in the past about, yeah, Jim, but those Beverick shoes just don't look very good.

对吧？

Right?

你会怎么回应那些被你的论点说服、也认同我的观点、明白自己的足部健康需要改善，却因为对鞋子外观的固有认知——受成长环境、时尚潮流以及鞋业宣传的影响——而无法迈出这一步的人呢？

What do you say to someone who is persuaded by the arguments you are making or that I've made before, thinks that yes, my foot health needs improving, but just cannot take that step because their idea of what a shoe should look like has been heavily influenced by how they've grown up, what they've seen in fashion, and I guess what the shoe industry has told them a shoe should look like.

是的。

Yeah.

这确实是个难题，我们经常听到这样的评论：那些鞋子就是丑。

It's a tough one, and certainly a comment that we get a lot is, you know, those shoes are just ugly.

而且

And

我不同意这种说法。

Which I disagree with.

我觉得它们比以前好太多了。

I think they're way better than they used to be.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为还存在一种认知问题：如果你一直习惯穿各种窄头高跟鞋，那么宽头平底鞋看起来就会很奇怪。

I think there's a perception as well where if all you're used to is narrow heeled shoes of various types, then a wide flat shoe does look strange.

但对我来说，窄头高跟鞋反而显得特别古怪，所以这里存在一种认知偏差，正如你所说，很大程度上是文化因素造成的。

But now to me, the narrow heeled shoes look really weird and So there's a perception issue there and like you said, a lot of it is cultural.

最终，人们必须自己决定：是更看重审美，还是更看重健康和功能。

At the end of the day, people just have to make a call on whether they want to prioritize their aesthetic more than their health and function or not.

这是那种你永远无法让每个人都改变的事情，而且确实存在一种对改变的接受程度谱系。

It is one of those things you're never gonna change everyone and and there's this you know, there's this spectrum of readiness for change.

如果有人过于执着于鞋子的外观，即使他们某种程度上明白应该改善足部功能，有些人还是得通过疼痛才能被迫改善足部功能。

And if someone is too hung up on the look of a shoe, even even if they sort of understand that they should improve their foot function, some people have to be forced into improving their foot function through pain.

前几天我看到一句话，真希望我能完美记住，我觉得是艾伦·瓦茨说的，我可能说得不够准确，但大意是：现实无法被忽视，否则必有代价，忽视现实的时间越长，代价就越大。

I saw this quote the other day, I wish I could remember it perfectly, I think it was Alan Watts, I'm probably gonna butcher it, but it was basically saying that reality cannot be ignored except at a cost and the longer the reality is ignored, the greater the cost.

我们可以为了时尚和审美而忽视足部功能需要特定刺激的现实，但随着时间推移，这种忽视终将付出代价。

So we can ignore the reality of our foot function needing certain inputs in the name of fashion and aesthetic but over time there will be costs to that.

实际上，有很多人很久以前就听说了我们的社区，一直放在一边，但最终他们意识到：是时候了，因为我的脚实在太疼了。

There are actually a lot of people who have come into our community who found out about us years ago and are on the back burner and eventually they were like yep I just figured it was time My feet were hurting too much.

我就试试吧。

I'm just gonna try it.

然后他们完全接受，整个想法和认知都发生了转变。

And then they fully buy into it, and then their whole mind is changed and their perception is changed.

但有时候，必须有一个特定的触发点，比如疼痛问题，才能让他们迈出这一步。

But it it sometimes takes a certain trigger, like a pain condition, to get them into that.

而且要明确的是，我们生活中曾经有一段时间没穿这种鞋。

And to be clear, there were times in our life when we weren't wearing these shoes.

对吧？

Right?

所以当你准备好了，自然就会去尝试。

And so you come to it when you come to it.

是的。

Yeah.

有时候，只是在人们心中种下种子，给予一些觉知。

It sometimes it's just planting seeds in people's minds and giving some level of awareness.

对。

Yeah.

在飞过来的航班上，巧合的是，麦克和我旁边坐着一位女士，她患足底筋膜炎已经十八个月了，她被给了支撑型鞋垫和矫形器，但没人告诉她要摆脱那些挤脚的鞋子，也没人给她任何锻炼建议。

On the flight over, coincidentally, Mac and I sat next to a woman who had plantar fasciitis for the last eighteen months and she'd been given supportive shoes, orthotics, and not been told to get out of her shoes that cramped her feet together and hadn't been given any exercise.

你在飞机上给她做了一个工作坊吗？

Did you give her a workshop on the plane?

太棒了。

Love it.

是的。

Yeah.

我 literally 拿出笔和纸，给她列了一份完整的计划，包括要看我们的哪些视频、听哪些播客，以及该买哪双鞋，全部都写清楚了。

I literally got out my pen and paper and wrote her out an entire plan of which videos of ours to watch, which podcasts to listen to, and which shoes to get, and all of this.

她完全愿意接受。

She was fully open to it.

我认为我们最常见的就是那些渴望获得这些信息的人，因为传统方法在直觉上说不通。

I think that's what we see most commonly is people who are hungry for that information because the traditional approach doesn't intuitively make sense.

你也是这样。

Same with you.

在某个时刻，你会觉得：这不太对劲。

At one point, at a certain point, you're like, this doesn't seem to jive.

为什么我要做这些，却对双脚的其他方面什么都不做呢？

Like, why would I have to do this and then not do anything else for my feet?

为什么

Why would

我后半辈子就得依赖这块塑料或者这双鞋？

I have to be dependent on this piece of plastic or this shoe for the rest of my life?

所以人们渴望获得这些信息，而权威人士却没有提供给他们。

And so people are hungry for that information, they're not being given it by the people who are authorities on the topic.

是的。

Yeah.

而且，那些该领域的权威人士在大学培训期间也没有获得这些信息。

And and the the people who are authorities on the topic aren't being given that information when they go through their university training.

我们在接受物理治疗培训时肯定也没得到这些信息。

We certainly weren't given this information when we went through our physio training.

你们除了教育公众外，也为医生和理疗师等医疗专业人士提供培训。

And you guys, as well as educating the public, you also do training for health care professionals like doctors and physios.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

那么，如果有一个医生、护士或者理疗师说：‘实际上，我想多了解一些关于足部的知识，以便更好地帮助我的患者或客户’，人们该去哪里找这类信息呢？

So where where do people find that if there's if there's a doctor listing or a or a nurse or a, you know, a physio who goes, actually, you know what?

我想多学一点关于足部的知识，以便更好地帮助我的患者或客户。

I'd love to learn a bit more about the foot and how to help my patients or my clients.

这些内容也在thefootcollector.com上吗？

Is that also at thefootcollector.com?

是的。

Yeah.

对。

Yeah.

所有内容都在那里。

It's all in there.