524.3 - 《丝之歌》、MegaDoc、秃鹫电影选秀与电影节反响

外屋。为了纪念本周末影院上映的一段宏大、勇敢而美丽的旅程，你会在哪个奇怪的地方找到通往过去的大门？刚才是我，凯蒂·里奇在说话，现在我又要告诉你，每次我去孩子们的学校，那里闻起来和看起来都像我自己的小学。所以我想，总有一天其中一扇门会真的打开，带我回到我真正的小学。

Outhouse. In honor of a big, bold, beautiful journey in theaters this weekend, where is a weird place you would find a door to your past? That was me, Katie Rich, talking, and here I am again to tell you that every time I go to my children's school, it kinda smells and looks like my own elementary school. So I just figured someday one of those doors will just open back up into my actual elementary school.

我是马特·帕奇斯，我想说这个问题让我想起了小时候看过的一集《未解之谜》，有个孩子走进衣柜后就消失了，他们再也没找到他。等等。真的吗？他们不知道到底发生了什么。也许他被带回了过去。

I am Matt Patches, and I guess I would say this question is reminding me of an unsolved mysteries episode that I watched as a kid where some kid went into the closet and disappeared, and they never found him. Wait. Really? They didn't know what really happened. And maybe he was taken to his past.

通往过去的大门可能就在你的衣柜里。

A door to your past could just be in your closet.

听起来像是个非常令人不安的未解之谜。我猜你是小时候看的。

That sounds like a very haunting unsolved mystery. I assume you watched this as a child.

是的。我甚至不确定这是不是真实事件。

Yes. And I'm not even sure it's real.

我是大卫·埃利希。我已经看过那部电影了。我还是不太完全理解这个提示。戴夫，选这个。找个你会发现门的地方。

I'm David Ehrlich. I I've seen the movie in question. I still don't know if I entirely understand the prompt. There's Dave, pick this one. Find you'd find a door.

真的有能带你回到过去的门吗？你看，我完全不知道。你已经看过了。

Are there doors that take you to the past? You see I don't know. Totally. You've seen it.

是啊。但就像我要说的，人们应该

Yeah. But like was gonna say, people should be

它们只是

They're just the

门只是随意散落各处。它们具体在哪儿其实并不重要。

doors are just sort of strewn about. It's not really important where they are necessarily.

好吧，那我想这将会是

Well, then I guess it's gonna be

在海上，门会通向哪里呢？但，是的，当然。如果海列车的门打开，把我带回到，比如说1989年的海列车，那大概能找到我。我也不知道。

on the sea where would the doors it's like where would the door lead to? But, yeah, sure. If the doors of the sea train opened and it spirited me back to, I don't know, the sea train in 1989, like, that would be likely place to find me. I don't know.

这不就是《俄罗斯娃娃》第二季的设定吗？

Isn't that the premise of Russian Doll season two?

不会喜欢那样的。Casey McQuiston有本书写的就是通往过去的地铁。Day不在这儿。我们搞不清状况了。这真是个很棒的播客。

Wouldn't like that. There's a there's a Casey McQuiston book about a subway that goes into the past. Day's not here. We lost track of things. This is a great podcast.

你们不能在这里打架。这里是作战室。好吧，德米特里，我现在能听清你了。

You can't fight in here. This is the war room. Fine. I can hear you now, Dmitry.

我不能再袖手旁观，容忍

I can no longer sit back and allow

清晰、明确且信号畅通

Clear and plain and coming through

很好。颠覆活动。

fine. Subversion.

我这边信号也很通畅，

I'm coming through fine too,

以及国际阴谋。那么，既然

And the international conspiracy. Well, then as

如你所说，我们双方通讯都很顺畅。

you say, we're both coming through fine.

榨取并净化。

To sap and purify.

我同意你的看法。感觉良好真是太好了。

I agree with you. It's great to be fine.

我们所有珍贵的体液。

All of our precious bodily fluids.

这是播客。

It's podcast.

大家好，欢迎来到《战争室论战》。这是第524.3期节目。我差点忘了我们还在用小数编号。我们得想办法解决这个问题。天啊。

Hello, and welcome to fighting in the war room. It is the episode 524.3. I sort of forgot we were on decimals. We got to do something about that. Lord.

本周是1972年9月17日星期三。就在这一天，一档名为《陆军野战医院》的节目在CBS广播电视网首播。多棒的标题啊。

It is the week of Wednesday, September 17. That is the date in in 1972, a show called MASH premiered on CBS broadcast television. What a title.

看过首播吗？从来没人谈论过《陆军野战医院》的首播。

Watched the premiere? No one ever talked about the premiere of MASH.

从来没人讨论过首映。我猜大概只有一个人看了。

No one ever talks about premiere. I assume it was probably one

零观众中的那一个。

of zero people watched.

当时可能有五千万人观看，因为那时候随便一档节目就能吸引五千万观众。哦，你说的是《陆军野战医院》吧——

There was probably one for, like, 50,000,000 people because back then, like, 50,000,000 people would tune into your show. Oh, was that Mash was

那时候它已经是部热门电影了？

already a popular movie by then?

后来它变成了那部

And it became That's

风靡全国的电视剧。

popular television show.

我准备查查看...我谷歌搜索《陆军野战医院》收视率，结果全是观众评价，完全不是我想要的数据。

I am gonna I'm gonna see if I can find you know, I Google Mash TV ratings and I get, like, Google audience reviews, which is just absolutely not what I was looking for.

继《MASH》之后，他们有没有把奥特曼的其他电影改编成电视剧？如果没有，你觉得哪部应该被改编？

Did they ever make another Altman movie into a television show after MASH? And if they didn't, which one should they have?

《医生、医生T和女人们》。这部剧在CBS播了十季。你没看过吗？没有。

Doctor doctor t and the women. It ran for ten seasons on CBS. You didn't watch? No.

《MASH》当时收视排名第四十五位。

Mash was forty fifth in the rankings.

他们每周都会忘记给案件档案上色。

They forgot a color the case every week.

这个网站查不到七十年代收视排名第四十五位的具体观众人数。所以我猜不到5000万——等等，5000万人？总觉得这数字可能...

This website will not tell me how many people that is that was forty fifth in the rankings in the seventies. So I'm gonna guess not 50,000,000 doll 50,000,000 people. I just feel like you'd probably

5000万条狗？

50,000,000 dogs?

5000万条狗。

50,000,000 dogs.

大约5000万只狗是怎么回事

50,000,000 dogs about how

许多狗观看了《陆军野战医院》的大结局。

many dogs watch the finale of Mash.

确实如此。收视率统计中每只狗相当于七个人。

That's true. Each dog counts as seven people in the rating.

戴夫没和我们一起。大卫对此非常愤怒，但我们其实要讨论原因——不，实际上我们没有这个议题。戴夫去看电影了。

Dave is not with us. David is furious about it, but we're gonna talk about the reason why actually, no. We don't have it. It's not on the agenda. Dave is seeing the movie.

是啊。

Yeah.

你计划什么时候

When do you plan on

在我们开始评论或惩罚之前，大卫，你为什么现在对戴夫这么生气？

So before we get into reviews or punishment, David, why are you so mad at Dave right now?

因为，我是说，显然上周在我们任何人——尤其是我——看过那部电影之前，就已经讨论过这个话题了。听着，我完全支持你们找任何借口不录制这档在工作日晚上9点录制的播客。大家都有事要忙。

Because I I mean, apparently, was a conversation about this last week before any of us, especially me, seen the movie him. And listen. I'm I'm here for any excuse you need to not record this podcast that records at 09:00 on a weekday night. We all have things to do.

决定这档播客录制时间表的唯一因素就是我们对此的看法吗？

Are the only people who determine the recording schedule for this podcast is what we think about that.

去看那部电影——当戴夫告诉我这件事时，我已经看过了，完全可以告诉他做其他任何事都比这更有意义。即便当时放鸽子去看一部毫无内涵和价值的电影。说真的，这是我这几个月看过的最空洞的电影。也许是因为参加电影节太久，我都忘了看一部真正的烂片是什么感觉。我是说，戴夫啊戴夫，真是丢人现眼。

To go and see him, a movie that I now, when Dave was telling me this is happening, have seen and could tell him to do basically anything else with his time would be more rewarding. To blow this off even then and go and see a movie that has absolutely no substance or value to it whatsoever. Like, truly the most nonexistent film I have seen in the last few months. Maybe by being at festivals for a while, but I had forgotten what it what it it's like to watch a real piece of shit. I it's I mean, Dave Dave, Ashanda, a real Shanda.

戴夫的承诺困境。

Dave's dilemma of commitment.

在里面？

In it?

我们都知道戴夫有多爱足球。但这似乎不太像他的风格。你们俩只看足球，从来没能真正...这是个线索吗？

Well, we all know how much Dave was football. That doesn't really seem the the poster for the guy. You guys only two football. You never really get a good. Is it a clue?

你们其实没什么好机会数落戴夫。要知道，他就像...

You never really get a good chance to lay into Dave. You know, He's like, he's a

他已经

He's he's already

处于真正的攻击状态。

in really attack.

抓住他。

Get him.

而且他可靠地出现在播客上，他们就像我们其他小丑一样。

And he's reliably on the podcast, and they're like the rest of us jokers.

基本上是他一个人扛起了整个播客。大家都喜欢他，一个好人，

He carries this whole podcast on his shoulders, basically. Everyone likes him. A nice guy,

但去他的吧。他完蛋了。

but fuck him. He's done.

终于。这次他真的越界了。

Finally. He's really crossed the line this time.

理论上讲，他现在正遭受着看一部关于自己的电影的折磨。

I guess in theory, he's now suffering by watching a movie him.

要是他

What if he

喜欢呢？要是他喜欢呢？那他下周就能带着完整的报告来了。据我所知我们没有任何评论。大卫，你能确认吗？

loves it? What if he loves it? Then he'll he can come next week with his full report. So we do not have any reviews as far as I can tell. David, can you confirm?

天啊。这周我每个该死的播客主持人。你们都在我的黑名单上。我们有个播客。你们知道还有谁吗？

God. Everyone of my fucking podcast hosts this week. You guys are all on my shit list. We have a podcast. You know who else?

你们知道你们知道自己在谁的黑名单上吗？你们在请退出推特的黑名单上，因为

You know you know whose shit list you're on? You're on please quit Twitter's shit list because

你试过按你说的做了

you tried do I did what you told me

去做了。他们四天前给我们留下的评论说

to do. Review that they left us four days ago says

我是个英雄。我发推特。最棒的。

I'm a hero. I put Twitter. Best.

最棒的播客，避开商业广告，提供好氛围、精彩的影视分析和闲聊。他们让我去影院看了《爱丁顿》等等。如果你不听其他类似播客，一定要听这个。如果你对行业运作过于着迷，音频质量挑剔者也欢迎收听。哦。

Best podcast that eschews commercials to provide good vibes, great TV film analysis, and chatter. They got me to see Eddington in theaters and more. Listen to this one if you don't check out any similar podcast. Listen to this one if you're way too into the business of it all, But the audio quality but the audio quality snobs, anyway, are welcome. Oh.

我是说，我猜这是在吐槽这个播客的音频质量。

I mean, I guess I guess it's a dig at the audio quality for this podcast.

我在想，我在想这一期的音频质量会是谁的问题。

I wonder who's I wonder who's audio quality could be on this one.

本评论环节由联合利华赞助播出。

This review segment brought to you by Unilever.

哦。哦，好啊。他们是付钱给你买新麦克风，还是教你如何使用？联合利华现在是这样操作的吗？

Oh. Oh, good. Are they paying for you to get a new microphone or to learn how to use it? Is that that way Unilever does now?

我知道。去你的。联合利华也是。

I know. Fuck you. Unilever also.

是联合利华吗？为什么。这是在指本杰瑞吗？什么情况

Is Unilever? Why. That a reference to Ben and Jerry's? What are

我们确定是的。

we Sure is.

我差点就...哦，我们不接受我们。哦，我不知道。是本杰瑞啊。

I just about oh, we don't take us. Oh, I didn't know. Was Ben Jerry.

我反应了一下才明白。

That took me a second.

好吧。珍妮和杰瑞刚退出本杰瑞，因为联合利华，你知道的，限制了法案的适用范围，他们允许对加沙的种族灭绝行为视而不见。去他妈的。

Okay. Jenny and Jerry just quit Ben and Jerry's because Unilever is, you know, capping the limits of the act because they're allowing for spate against genocide in Gaza. Fuck them too.

去他妈的很多人，我觉得我们

Fuck a lot of I think we

都能同意，甚至戴夫和戴夫可能最同意这一点。有很多人都该滚蛋。哇哦。但我先从戴夫开始，然后是国会那帮人。

can all agree, even Dave and Dave maybe most of all would agree with this. There's a lot of people who should go fuck themselves. Wow. But I'm starting with Dave, and then I'm getting to to congress.

我不想要鲍勃。我们没进监狱。电波。你知道，幸好我们这个播客没有母公司

I don't want Bob. We didn't go to jail. Airwaves. You know, good thing we don't have a parent company on this podcast who

我们没有

We don't

母公司。

have a parent company.

我知道。在

I know. Over the

没人能让我们下架，没人能吊销我们的FCC执照。结果

No one no one can take us off the old no one can take away our FCC license. Turns out

我们将永远属于男性圈层。

We will always be part of the manosphere.

如果有人真给我们FCC执照就麻烦了，不知道会引发什么后果。感谢精彩评论。大卫，我确实退出推特了，随时可能生效。你可以采纳这位网友的好建议。

It would be a real problem if someone gave us an FCC license. I'm not sure what would result from that. Thank you for the excellent review. I did quit Twitter, David, any day now. You can follow this person's wonderful advice.

我们还有邮件往来，不过我想我们可以留到下周再处理。但你们可以发邮件到fitwr.podcast@gmail.com。我说得和戴夫一样顺口。看起来戴夫和我总在播客里错过彼此，这问题真是我们自己造成的。

And we also have emails, but I guess we'll save them for next week. But you can email us at fitwr.podcast@Gmail.com. I say that just as well as Dave does. It looks in a while since Dave and I keep missing each other on the podcast. What a problem we're creating here.

以上就是我们要宣传的全部内容。稍后我们会讨论《秃鹫电影梦幻联盟》。如果有人提前加入——虽然我不明白你们为何要加入我们的《秃鹫电影梦幻联盟》——请加入Fit Warriors战队，拼写是f i t w a r r i o r s c。

So that's all we have to plug. And we are gonna talk later about the Vulture Movie Fantasy League. But in case anyone turns up before they, which I don't want to know why you would join us in the Vulture Movie Fantasy League. Join the Fit Warriors team. That's f I t w a r r I o r s c.

你知道，就像Fit Warriors。听起来像我们在运营训练营似的，但其实这就是Fit Warriors。我们稍后会讨论各自的阵容名单，以及技术上我还有个播客也搞了个迷你联赛。我现在正面临两难抉择。

You know, like Fit Warriors. Was like it sounds like we're, like, running, a boot camp, but it's a it's it's the Fit Warriors. And we'll yeah. We'll talk later about our various rosters, about the fact that technically I have another podcast that also has a mini league. I'm torn between two worlds right now.

要不...这个我们可以晚点再聊？

Did you I mean, maybe we could talk about this later.

我刚说到要去找克里斯·罗森来着，其实我也不确定。

When I'm just talking about, I say, go get Chris Rosen. I don't know.

你在名单上挂了两支队伍。

You have two lists up on the thing.

不，我没有。我只是个Fit Warrior而已。Prestige Yankee队只能在没有代表的情况下继续前进——克里斯代表的是Prestige Junkie队——让最强者胜出吧。以我去年的表现来看，无论结果如何都没人会想念我的，因为我根本提不出什么有价值的建议。

No, I don't. I'm just I'm I'm just a fit warrior, but prestige Yankee will have to soldier on without being representing Chris is representing Prestige Junkie and made the best man win. Based on my performance last year, no one will miss me one way or another because I won't have anything relevant to contribute.

我们走着瞧。你可能学到了一些东西。

We'll see. You probably learned a thing or two.

我会看着的。好吧。那么，节目继续。

I will see. Alright. And with that, on with the show.

大家好，我是戴夫。在节目继续之前，我想先澄清几件已经发生的事情。第一，大卫，我并不想在闪电问答环节通过一扇门来询问你过去的痛苦记忆，这不合情理。

Hello. Dave here. Just wanna address some things that have already happened before we continue with the show. One, I didn't wanna ask what painful memory from your past is through a door on a podcast for the lightning round, David. That's why it didn't make sense.

第二，向凯蒂道歉，她不知道在我说大卫麦克风有问题的那一周，我直到后来才有机会处理她的音频，导致她的声音听起来有点像空洞骑士丝之歌。第三，大卫说得对，他的麦克风确实有问题。好了，我想继续节目。

Two, apologies to Katie who doesn't know the irony of telling David his microphone is bad during a week where I didn't get access to treating her audio until later and she sounds a little hollow knight silksong. Three, David is right, him is bad. Alright. I want the show.

我带着我的培根在公园散步。看起来是个美好的日子，我说。摇晃的培根回答。咯波，咯波，咯波，咯波，咯波，培根油溅到了我的眼睛。这就是近距离看培根的样子。

I took a stroll through the park with my bacon. Seems to be a lovely day, I said. Wobbly bacon replied. Lobo, lobo, lobo, lobo, lobo, bacon greased my eye. That's what bacon looks like closer.

培根说了什么？现在音乐已经响起，我要说，我不知道丝之歌是什么。哦，太好了。谁来告诉我。

What did bacon say? Now that the music has played, I get to say, I don't know what silk song is. Oh, great. Someone tell me.

这是开始吗？哦，好吧。我们记下了丝之歌。凯蒂在我们的文档里看到了，但她不知道丝之歌是什么。

Is that the beginning here? Oh, okay. We wrote down Silksong. Katie saw it in our document. Doesn't know what Silksong is.

《丝之歌》太搞笑了。

Silksong is hilarious.

我已经玩了十五个小时。

Played fifteen hours of it.

也许我

Maybe I

认为这是个电子游戏。

think it's a video game.

正如大卫所说，过去两周他一直在全国各地的电影节上。你一直在写你见到他的事，大卫。

David, as he said, has been at film festivals around the country in the last two weeks. You've been writing you've been seeing him, David.

你一直在...我带了很多电影。多伦多跟我一起。

You've been I I brought a lot of movies. Toronto with me.

不过，是的。

But, yes.

事实就是如此。

That's the truth.

我一直缠着问你在《空洞骑士：丝之歌》里玩到哪了，这是我在你们去多伦多时玩的游戏。显然，大卫在多伦多时也还在玩。

I've been bugging you to see how far you've gotten in Hollow Knight Silksong, a video game that I've been playing while you all were at Toronto. And apparently, David was still playing while he was at Toronto.

确实如此。所以他都没怎么和我们一起玩。

Sure was. That's why he wasn't hanging out with us enough.

凯蒂，你没听说过这个我倒不意外。但好吧，这可能是过去几年最受期待的游戏之一。大卫，你怎么形容大家对《丝之歌》的期待？你甚至能感受到过去这段时间网上对它的狂热梗图文化吗？

I I I'm not surprised you haven't heard of this, Katie. But Okay. This might be one of the most anticipated games of the last few years. David, how would you describe the excitement for Silksong? Do you even have a perception of just, like, how memeified the hype for Silksong has been over the last

是啊，九年

Yeah. Nine

有那么久了吗？哇哦。不过你知道，某种程度上它就像是电子游戏界的泰伦斯·马利克电影——作为备受喜爱的独立游戏《空洞骑士》的续作，由澳大利亚（还是新西兰？我想说是澳大利亚）团队Team Cherry多年前预告后迟迟未出，简直成了...

Has it been that long? Wow. Yeah. Well, you know, it's it's like the video game equivalent of a Terrence Malick movie in a way, and that its existence is sequel to a very beloved independent game called Hollow Knight made by the Australian or New Zealand, I want say Australian development team, Team Cherry, was teased a number of years ago, and didn't come out. It just was no I whole order of mean,

就像是

there was like

有一段游戏实机演示的视频，那是

there was a video there was video of the gameplay, which was

2019年2月公布的。我要更新下自己的认知。已经过去九年了。

pretty Announced in February 2019. I'm going to update myself. Has been nine years.

在那之前是疫情时期。

Before that's the pandemic.

这就是为什么感觉像过了九年。

It That's why showed feels like nine years.

类似《空洞骑士》的类银河战士恶魔城玩法，不过这次你操控的是黄蜂女而不是那个叫什么名字的主角。

Similar Metroidvania like gameplay of Hollow Knight, now you control Hornet as opposed to the whatever the guy's name was.

所有角色都是小虫子。是的。这是个庞大的...

All the characters are little bugs. Yeah. They're it's a it's a huge old.

你在探索一个...制作得非常精美。

You're exploring a it's beautifully done.

这是由软骨完成的，像虫子一样吗？不。

It's it's done by a cartilage, like a bug? No.

这只虫子有个尖尖的头，还带着一根小针，它很美。确实如此。

This bug has, like, a pointy head and it carries a a little needle as a It's beautiful. It is

至少从美学角度，我妻子认可了，这很重要，因为她是个很有品味的平面设计师。这基本上是由两个人完成的，这也是续作耗时如此之久的部分原因。他们展示了一段游戏片段，人们反应是，好吧，这基本上和《空洞骑士》一样的玩法。看起来就像是，你知道的，换了地图的《空洞骑士》。

my wife's approved, at least aesthetically, which goes a long way as she's a very desirting graphic It was made basically by two people, which is part of the reason why the sequel took so long. And, yeah, they showed a gameplay clip. And people are like, okay, it's basically the same gameplay as Hollow Knight. It looks like a, you know, Hollow Knight with other maps.

我记得甚至计划过推出DLC。是的，但他们决定，算了，我们直接做续作吧。

I think it was even going to be, There's DLC. A a There's Yeah. But they're like, yeah. We'll make another one.

然后它就迟迟未出，成了玩家间的老梗。实际上，当你是一个小团队时——虽然他们可能有所壮大——试图为一款意外爆红的独立游戏制作续作，面对巨大的压力和期待，要超越前作并打造更宏大的内容，确实需要时间。最终他们宣布了发售日，而且公布后仅两周就上市了，确实如期而至。

And then it just never came out and people became a a running joke, really. And it turns out that when you are basically a team of few people, I'm sure they've grown some, trying to make a sequel to an indie game that came out of nowhere to become a massive sensation and now have all this pressure on you and the expectation to over deliver and make something even bigger, it takes a minute. And it finally came out. They announced it, and they announced that it was gonna come out like two weeks after they announced the release date. And sure enough, it did.

它直接挤爆了任天堂Switch服务器和Steam之类的平台。我倒是顺利在Switch上第一时间买到了。游戏很棒，就是更多的《空洞骑士》，只不过现在你扮演黄蜂女。目前我的体验大致如此。

It crashed the Nintendo Switch servers and Steam and all that shit. I was able to grab it on my switch right when it came out without a problem. But and it's it's great. It's more Hollow Knight, except for now you play as Hornets. That's basically what I got so far.

我爱《空洞骑士》，也爱玩《丝之歌》。

Love I love Hollow Knight and I love playing Silksong.

凯蒂，正如大卫所暗示的，让我来描述一下这款游戏的机制——你被随机丢在一个荒芜之地。起初没有地图，也没有明确指引你去任何方向。你只是在这片空间里探索。游戏中你扮演一只虫子，所以能看到大量微观世界的意象，但同时也充满宗教色彩。我会形容它带有奇幻后末日风格的气息，但主角是虫子，周围遍布着许多虫子的尸体，

And, Katie, to describe what David was alluding to, like, the the mechanics of this game, you you're kinda dropped in the middle of of nowhere. There's no map at the beginning, and there's no direction really pointing you to go anywhere. You're just kind of exploring this space. And in this game, again, you're a bug, so there's a lot of tiny micro cosm imagery, but it's also highly religious. This game has some sort I would describe it as a fantasy, post apocalyptic kind of vibes, but it's bugs, and a lot of them are dead around you, and

你四处游走试图弄清发生了什么。虽然这对凯蒂的理解帮助不大，但我要说信息呈现方式与《黑暗之魂》及其衍生游戏如《艾尔登法环》等非常相似。

you're walking around trying to figure out what's going on. Gonna do much for Katie's understanding, but I'd say the way that information is doled out is very similar to how it is in the Dark Souls and related games, Elder Rings and whatnot.

当你与NPC交谈时——你会遇到许多看似抑郁的角色，还有那些迷失自我、正在前往宗教圣城朝圣的人。整个氛围令人困惑又压抑，除了那个穿着飘逸红裙的角色霍妮特。再说一次，每个细节都美得惊人。或许我们该聊聊为什么这款游戏花了六七八年才真正完成——背景里有无数精细动画、华丽细节和精心设计。每次你轻触场景中的物件，都能感受到那种细腻又充满情感的环境。

But talking to people well, you're talking you're talking to a lot of people who seem depressed and talking to people who seem lost and on on religious journeys to a citadel, that kind of thing. And and you're not quite sure. It can it can feel depressing except the character, Hornet, who has this flowing red dress and, again, every bit of this is beautiful. Maybe we'll talk a little bit about why we think it it took, like, six, seven, eight years to really finish this, but there's so much tiny animation, so many flourishes, so much design happening in the background. Every time you, like, brush against a bit of, the scenery, like it's all so delicate and emotional just to be in these environments and explore them.

但你真的会感到迷失。游戏难度极其残酷，关于是否对某些玩家过于困难的讨论很多。开发者可能正在通过补丁降低难度，我个人对此...

But you're really lost. Like the game is brutally difficult, and there's been a lot of discourse about it being maybe too difficult for for certain people. And maybe they should make it a little less difficult. They may actually be patching, you know, updating the game to make it slightly less difficult for people, which I don't know. I have a whole

感觉...那个...非常

feeling That's that's that's very

让我坐立不安的艺术妥协。

antsy art to me.

我正想说，他们是在屈服吗？

I was gonna say, they kowtowing?

我 我 那里 那里有一个 这是一个很大的话题，我们得讨论，但它

I I there there's a this is a big conversation and that we get to, but It

并不是 并不是那么好，我认为在这个特定情况下并不需要。在我为此花费的十五个小时里，我发现它很有挑战性，但你知道，完全有可能。而我 我不喜欢

is not it is not so well, I don't think that it is called for in this particular case. In the fifteen hours I've spent for it, I found it challenging but, you know, very possible. And I I don't fancy

这需要耐心。

It requires patience.

作为一个资深玩家，但挑战在于我对这类魂系游戏的预期。玩家机制不同，但我一直将这些游戏与它们的难度联系在一起。不过这与试映过程或进行beta测试并无太大不同。只是现在他们在产品发布后进行调整。游戏经常打补丁，Boss被削弱，这些都是常有的事。

An expert gamer, but the challenge is around what I expect of a game that is sort of in the souls born. The player mechanics are different, but I've always associated these games in terms of their difficulty. But it's not so different from the test screening process or having a beta. It's just that now they're tweaking the product after it's been released. And games are patched all the time and bosses are nerfed and these things happen.

但他们一开始就打算做一款非常难的游戏。而 而我觉得吸引我的是这款游戏中的Boss，凯蒂，真的非常难。我尝试了上百次。游戏中有些部分我反复重复了无数次。

But they also set out to make something very difficult. And and I think what has been appealing to me is the bosses in this game, Katie, are are so difficult. I've tried to to do them a 100 times. There's certain parts of the game that I've repeated over and over and over.

等等。你 你 你现在打到

Wait. How how how far are you in the

游戏分为三幕。我现在在第二幕，这又花了我大概二十个小时才打到。23 你比

So they're split up into three acts. I'm in the second act, which, again, took me maybe twenty hours to get to. 23 You're further ahead than

是的。我还在找那些该死的...嗯，我不会剧透的。门。

I am. I'm still looking for these fucking Yeah. I won't spoil anything. Door.

但我的意思是，我遇到过一些Boss战，我真的觉得自己尝试了一百五十次才掌握所需的操作节奏。

But there's I mean, I've encountered bosses where I I literally think I did a hundred hundred fifty times to try and do the dance required.

菜鸟。

Loser.

需要有...需要有耐心去攻克它。不。因为...我看到有人精准指出，很多游戏就是让你无脑砍杀，拿着剑就只管砍人。但我觉得这款游戏真正强调的是学习招式、保持耐心、不盲目进攻、享受当下时刻并欣赏环境设计。

And to have the and have the patience to get through it. No. Because it's I I saw someone accurately point out that, you know, a lot of games would have you just hack and slash and you have a sword. You're there to hit people with that sword. But it I think this game is really about, like, learning the moves and and taking your time and not attacking and and basking in the moment and seeing the environments.

这是一款考验耐心的游戏。它的大火令人意外——如果我们这样描述一部电影：'耗时九年制作，两人独立开发的小众作品，自主发行，现在赚了六千万美元'...

A game of patience. And it's surprising how popular it's been because I don't think if we were describing a movie in this way, Oh, it took nine years. It's a tiny indie. It's two people who made it all together. It's it's self distributed, and now it's made $60,000,000.

电影界可没有这种成功案例。

That's not how any movie story ends up going.

电影赚六千万美元也不稀奇，这种情况确实存在。

Any movies can can make $60,000,000. It's been known to happen.

是的。我们不久前在播客里讨论过《大人物拿破仑》。

Yeah. We covered Napoleon Dynamite on the podcast not too long ago.

我觉得阿诺拉在全球范围内做了一些类似的工作。

I think Anora made some work close to that around the world.

让我想想。阿诺拉是一部由某家公司出品的电影，制作得像真正的电影。这不是游戏

Let's see. Anora is a is a movie put out by a a company that was made like a real movie. This is not a game

哦，我明白了。比如，发行方式是

Oh, I see. Like, the distribute the distribution is

这不是像《塞尔达传说：荒野之息》那样制作的游戏。

This is not a game being made like Breath of the Wild.

由山姆和查理在你家地下室搞的。懂吗？

By Sam and Charlie in your basement. You know?

对啊。那太棒了。听起来很棒。如果他们能开始拍电影的话，他们可以

Yeah. That'd be great. Sounds great. If they can start making movies They can

制作价值6000万美元的游戏？

make $60,000,000 games?

是啊。当我看到托尼和丹·吉尔罗伊因《安道尔》赢得艾美奖时，我就想，太棒了。兄弟间的目标。这就是我们在这里要努力实现的。

Yeah. When I watched Tony and Dan Gilroy win Emmys for Andorra, I was like, great. Brother goals. This is what we're gonna try to accomplish here.

不过确实。我是说，大卫，你能从这款游戏中看出六年的心血吗？它绝对更像是第一部的延续。它延续了人们喜爱第一部的元素——探索空间、寻找地图、发现秘密所在。

But yeah. I mean, David, do you see six years of work in this game? It it is absolutely more of the the first one. It's delivering on what people loved about the first one, navigating the space, finding the maps, figuring out where secrets are.

你遇到一个虫子角色，它突然来句‘香蕉去死’，然后你就，好吧。

You find a bug who goes, like, fuck banana, and you're like, okay.

没错。它们都有搞怪的虫子配音。有虫子地图绘制员、虫子商店，所有那些小虫子。

Yeah. They all have funny bug voices. There's a bug map maker. There's bug shops. All the little bugs.

所有那些小家伙。但我想说的是，你觉得他们为何投入这么多时间？当你现在看到这个作品时，你认为他们究竟在哪些方面呕心沥血？

All those little guys. But, I mean, do you see why why do they spend so much time? What what were they toiling over, do you think, when you're now, you know, this creation?

当你创作某样东西时，进入状态后，你清楚它是什么，并想做出更宏大、更完善、更精致的版本，你能感受到成功带来的顺风，以及人们对你的作品的热情。是的。显然——我认为像《空洞骑士》这样的游戏是完美主义和细节导向创作的产物。我从不指望它的续作会花费比实际更短的时间。毕竟，你知道，我从未制作过电子游戏。

When you make something, know, and you get into a groove and you you know what it is and you wanna make a bigger, more robust, refined version of that thing, you feel the tailwinds of success and enthusiasm for people who like the thing that you do. Yeah. And they're clearly I mean, I think a game like Hollow Knight is the product of perfectionism, of detail oriented creation. And I would never have been in the expectation that a sequel to it would have taken anything less than the amount of time that it did. I don't, you know, I've never made a video game.

我不明白其中投入了什么。但你知道，是的，屏幕上显示了一切，包括时间成本，即便没有预算。但它确实是一件精美定制化的产品。所有这些成功面世的事物——显然，它的存在有经济动机，也确实带来了丰厚的回报，实至名归。但当你遇到如此精心设计、倾注了如此多心思与真诚的作品时，它确实像一道壁垒，抵挡着我们每天被迫吞下的那些东西。

I don't understand what goes into it. But, you know, yeah, it's all there on the screen, the time involved, if not the budget. But yeah, it's a beautifully bespoke product. All of these things that manage to find success and exist to I mean, obviously, this had a financial incentive to exist that has made them a massive windfall well deserved. But it does feel, when you encounter something that is this ornately designed and with this much thought and sincerity behind it, like a bulwark against the that we're all forced to swallow all day long every day.

仅凭这一点，它的存在就是件美好的事，我很庆幸它存在。

And for that reason alone, it's a beautiful thing that I'm glad exists.

它的音效也很棒。我喜欢玩那种想把音量调到最大的游戏。我要调暗灯光。克里斯托弗·拉金的配乐太美了。游戏里的音景就像回声在回荡。

It's also sounds great. I like playing a game where I want a sound turned all the way up. I want the lights dimmed. And, like, the Christopher Larkin score is beautiful. The the soundscapes in it's just, like, echoing happening.

每个细节都如此精致。再说一次，它不像《荒野之息》那样宏大，而是非常私密，但细节丰富程度超乎想象。我太爱它了。我会坚持玩到最后，即使游戏里那些大虫子把我虐得够呛。

Every part of this is so detailed. And, again, like, it's not an expansive game like Breath of the Wild. It's very intimate, but it goes even more detailed than you could ever imagine. I I'm loving it. I will I will be playing to the end even as I have my ass whooped by these big bugs that I keep encountering in the game.

那些大虫子

The big bugs

你是怎么玩的？你在什么平台上玩这个游戏？

How does you how does one play it? What is the platform in which you play this?

要玩

To play

在很多方面。

on lot of things.

你可以

You can

玩它

play it

在你的Switch上玩。你可以在Xbox或PlayStation、电脑上玩。好吧，所以它相当

on your Switch. You can play it on your Xbox or PlayStation, your computer. Okay. So it's pretty

相当适应，那么独立游戏更可能是跨平台的，像这样吗？

pretty adapt so are indie games more likely to be cross platform like that?

几乎可以肯定。我是说，Switch现在可能是最难的一个，因为有更多的门槛要过。但如果你有电脑，你大概就能运行这个游戏，甚至不需要顶级的游戏PC之类的。如今，你可以的。这款游戏本来是要在各个平台发布的。

Almost definitely. I mean, Switch is actually probably the hardest one at this point because there's more bars to clear. But, I mean, if you have a computer, you'd probably be able to run this even not like a top notch game PC or something. But these days, you can yeah. This game was going to be everywhere.

它已经无处不在。非常容易上手。而且只要20美元。这又引发了另一场讨论，他们把这款游戏定价得如此便宜。现在有很多独立游戏售价40或60美元。

It is everywhere. It's extremely playable. And it's only $20. This has been another discourse where it's like, they put this game out for way cheap. There's a lot of indie games coming out for $40 or $60.

要知道，大型游戏通常定价60美元。《马里奥赛车世界》售价80美元。价格本应只涨不跌，但他们却以20美元推出游戏，这让整个行业有点措手不及。他们是不是把门槛降得太低了？因为他们清楚自己能做到。

You know, the bigger games are 60. Mario Kart World cost $80. There's a the prices are only supposed to go up, and these guys put their game out for $20, which is sending the industry spiraling a little bit. Like, should have they lowered the bar too far down? Because they knew they could.

他们知道这款游戏会大卖。对此我无话可说。其实我并不在意。我只花了20美元就能玩到。人人都可以，正因如此它才如此火爆。

They knew they'd sell a lot of copies of this game. I don't know what to say about that. I don't really care. I got to play it for $20. Everyone can, and it's super popular for that reason.

这20美元绝对值得一试，亲身体验下这款游戏是否真能带给你《亡魂》般的震撼体验。

It's worth spending that $20 and just seeing for yourself if you can, you know, go through the revenant esque experience of the game.

我看了部原本不在必看清单的纪录片——因为始终没机会看弗朗西斯·科波拉的《大都会》，等发现时已为时已晚。这片子既没有实体发行版本，也没有任何流媒体平台上线，无处可租，连数字版都找不到。

I saw a documentary that I did not necessarily have high on my list because they never saw Francis Porticoppola's Megalopolis and then learned far too late that you can no longer watch it. It is not designed just in any physical format. It is not streaming anywhere. It is not available to rent anywhere. There's no digital version of it.

它基本上消失了，除非科波拉决定重新发行。但你能看到的是...

It is gone, basically, until Coppola decides he wants to put it somewhere. But what you can watch

他正在巡演呢。最意外的是我妈妈——她居然和朋友去西切斯特看了弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉的现场演讲，就几周前的事。所以...

He's he's on tour. My mom my mom, of all people, went with a friend and saw Francis Ford Coppola presented in, like, West Chester a couple of weeks ago. So

太棒了。没想到巡演还在继续，真是个好消息。

That's great. Did not realize that this tour was still ongoing. That is wonderful news.

因为我

Because I

我是说，他能在房子里用真人演员放映这部电影。

mean, he's able to show the movie with the live actor in the house.

我我不知道他们怎么做到的。我猜。

I I don't know how they do that. I'm assuming.

希望如此。

I would hope so.

但你在很多地方都能看到，包括我正在查我当地的Alamo Drafthouse以及全国各地的独立影院，就是《Megadoc》，这部关于《Megalopolis》制作过程的纪录片由Mike Feyes执导——这个名字我一开始没反应过来，但他是个七十多岁的导演，拍过一大堆作品。我记得他拍过《离开拉斯维加斯》。David，你可能比我更清楚他的作品列表。时间码。也许我可以解释一下。

But what you can see in plenty of places, including I'm looking it up in my local Alamo Drafthouse and then various indie theaters all over the country is Megadoc, which is about the making of Megalopolis made by Mike Feyes whose name I did not immediately clock, but, like, is a director in his seventies who've made a whole bunch of stuff. I think he made leaving Las Vegas. David, you might have more of his credits readily available to me. Time code. Maybe as I can explain.

那是四象限电影吗？当然。实时的那种。

Is that the four quadrant movie? Sure. Real time.

嗯，这不是好莱坞在乎的那种四象限电影。

Well, it's not the kind of four quadrant movie that Hollywood cares about.

迈克，亲爱的，给我们来个四分屏电影。哦，我正好有个点子。四个画面同时播放。

Mike, baby, give us a four quadrant movie. Oh, I got just the thing. Four screens at once.

这简直是电影界的Zyrica（注：可能指某种多任务处理模式）。

It's the filmic equivalent of Zyrica.

他与弗朗西斯·福特·科波拉可能在某个阶段成为了朋友。他邀请迈克·维加斯来拍摄他制作《大都会》的过程。显然，科波拉之前就做过类似的事，比如《现代启示录》的拍摄纪录片。虽然《大都会》在身体健康方面没有像《现代启示录》那样成为灾难，但制作过程中确实有不少人中途退出。

He and Francis Ford Coppola and presumably became friends at some point along the way. And he asked Mike Vegas to come and just film him making Megalopolis. Obviously, this is something that Coppola has done before with the documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now. And Megalopolis was not exactly the kind of catastrophe that Apocalypse Now was in terms of, like, physical health. But you did have various people waiting in the middle of making of it.

主演《大都会》的娜塔莉·伊曼纽尔要求在吃饭时被拍摄；亚当·德赖弗每次镜头靠近就躲开；希亚·拉博夫没有眉毛——我没看过《大都会》，不知道这是剧情需要还是他的个人行为。这部纪录片精彩展现了这群人拍电影的过程，因为弗朗西斯·沃德·普韦布洛（注：应为科波拉）在执导，而演员们其实不太理解剧情，他在片场总说‘我们试试这个镜头’。

You had a Natalie Emmanuel star of Megalopolis asking that to be filmed while eating. You have Adam Driver effectively running away from the camera every time it gets anywhere near him. You have Shia LaBeouf with no eyebrows. I don't having not seen Megalopolis, I don't know if there's a plot reason for that or if that's just something that he did. It is an incredibly entertaining look at a bunch of people making a movie because Francis Ward Pueblo is making it and they don't really understand what it's about and he's on set saying, Hey, we're gonna try this thing.

‘看看效果如何’。然后好几次他说：‘嗯，这样不行，看起来不对劲。’影片并没有刻意渲染这是一场灾难，更像是惊叹于创作过程本身。

We're gonna see how it looks. And then several times he goes, Yeah, that didn't work. It doesn't really look work. She's just moving along. I don't it's not as much like reveling in the idea of this movie being a catastrophe.

它让你无数次感慨任何电影能完成都是奇迹，更别说拍得好了。奥布瑞·普拉扎绝对是这部纪录片的最大亮点，她享受着这场混乱，时不时逗弄镜头，让人根本无法把视线从她身上移开。

It's just kind of marveling at the creative process. It makes you think a million times about how any movie existing is a miracle, much less being any good. And Aubrey Plaza, I would say is the runaway star of this movie. She is having a great time witnessing all of this chaos, messing with the camera every now and then. You kind of can't look away from her.

我看得特别过瘾，真希望更多人能看到。大卫，我知道你也看过了。

And I had such a blast watching it. I really want more people to see it. David, I know you've seen it also.

我有。

I have.

那你是否也认为普拉扎是这其中最让粉丝们感到新奇有趣的存在？

And do you also agree Plaza was the new most fun of any fans in the middle of this?

奥布瑞·普拉扎看起来像是那种无论何时都能玩得最尽兴的人。尤其是她饰演的角色凯蒂——说真的，你活在信息闭塞的世界吗？我无法理解怎么会有人不熟悉《哇白金》。这简直是时代的悲剧，我们这个时代最伟大的银幕角色之一。

Aubrey Plaza seems like someone who is usually having the most fun of anyone at a given time. She, I think, particularly because her character who, Katie, I mean, you live in a hole in the ground. I don't understand who can go through your life not being familiar with Wow Platinum. It's a real travesty. One of the great cinematic characters of our time.

现在知道这么难找，我真心希望当初看过。我是说，我本来没想看《哇白金》，一直没机会看。

I do truly wish I had now that I know it's so hard to find. I I mean, I didn't want to see Wow Platinum. I never got to it.

其实也没那么难找吧，让我给你介绍一下互联网。

I mean, it's not really, like, that hard to find. I introduce you to the Internet.

我在想，我有没有

I was wondering, do I have

实体放映版？去年他们有寄过那种吗？要是有就方便多了

a physical screener? Did they send one of those at some point last year? That would be helpful

总之，我不清楚。但她显然在模仿角色外向、爱摆弄相机的顽皮性格，而这似乎也很符合她本人的个性。是的，这很强烈。

anyway. I don't know. But she is definitely channeling the extroverted messing with the camera playfulness of her character, but also that seems to fit her personality. Yeah. It's a lot.

这是一部独一无二电影的狂野记录。我确实某种程度上与之共鸣——它探讨了在电影创作过程中（无论规模大小）游戏与工作的角色差异。科波拉反复强调这更像是游戏而非工作，而希亚·拉博夫不断消磨他的耐心，美术部门的叛逆行为更...

It's a wild document of a one of a kind movie. It is I really sort of vibe with it as a look at the role of play versus work in the process of creating a film of any scale. And certainly this one, I mean, Coppola talks time and time again about how this is play and not work. And then as Shia LaBeouf grates and grates and grates on his nerves and the art department rebellious

明显能看出他在片中对希亚·拉博夫有多恼火。

against visibly annoyed he gets with Shia LaBeouf in this movie.

我的意思是，他真的让情况看起来——我记得他某处说过类似的话——在丛林里拍摄马龙·白兰度不穿内裤或裤子的戏份，都比在亚特兰片场与希亚·拉博夫共事轻松得多。

I mean, he truly makes it seem and I think he says something to this effect at one point, that filming in the middle of the jungle with Marlon Brando wearing no underwear or no pants or whatever, It was nothing compared to working with Shia LaVonne on the Atlanta Sound stage.

他直接告诉希亚：你是我合作过最让人头疼的演员。希亚还一脸难以置信：真的吗？真的？得到的回答是：千真万确。

He tells him, like, you were the biggest pain in the ass actor I have ever worked with. And Shia is like, really? Really? It's like, yes.

为什么他在这部电影里这么难搞？

Why is he such a pain on this movie?

比如他会突然走进场景说：好吧，我不喜欢这样——这家伙把脚搁我桌上，我为什么不直接干架？科波拉就解释：剧情需要这样。他还真的会耐心说明原因。

Well, he'll, like, step into a scene and be like, okay. So, like, I don't like but, like, this guy's got, like, feet on my desk. And so, like, why am I not starting a physical fight about it? And Coppola's like, well, this is, how this is. And he, like, actually explains it.

而他直接插进来，试图质疑并基本上改变剧本上的每一个场景。看起来他在幕后惹恼了约翰·沃伊特和达斯汀·霍夫曼，还问他们一大堆问题。为什么？

And he's just jumping in there and trying to question and change basically every single scene that's on there. And like, it seems like he's annoying John Voigt and Dustin Hoffman behind the scenes and asking them a bunch of questions. Why?

我是说，希亚在纪录片里暗示过。这后来成了我们圈内的新话题，说他与约翰·沃伊特闹翻了。比如，他们曾经是朋友——

I mean, Shia alludes in the documentary. This has since become like something of a new story in our world that he and John Voigt had a falling out. Like, we're friends at

某个阶段确实如此。对，约翰·沃伊特在他职业生涯早期还像是他的导师。

some point. Yeah. Like, John Voigt was like a mentor to him early in his career.

你觉得他们一起会做什么？

What do think they do together?

不知道。算不上朋友。谁也说不准。约翰·怀特的政治立场。他选择了那些东西。

I don't know. No friends. There's no telling. John White's politics. Chose it and stuff.

你知道的，希亚·拉博夫，不管你怎么评价他。而且确实有很多——

You know, Shia LaBeouf, you know, say what you will about him. And there's plenty

你认识的最糟糕的人突然提出了关于希亚·拉博夫的精辟观点。好吧，我甚至...我们大概...

The real worst person you know just made a great point situation with Shia LaBeouf. Well, I'm I'm not even We're probably

在

on the

同一方。

same side.

说得好。不过他似乎...是的。至少我们...我们...我们...我们可能在政治立场上大致属于同一阵营。但确实，这很有趣。我是说，这部纪录片非常零散简短，节奏轻快。

Great point. But it seems like he yeah. At least we're we're we're we're probably seem to fall broadly on the same side of the aisle politically. But, yeah, it's I mean, it's fascinating. I wish that it's the documentary is very scattershot and short and breezes along.

它给人的感觉就像是在蜻蜓点水般地掠过整个制作过程，而实际上这些素材足够拍27部类似的纪录片。而且这一切还是在亚当·德赖弗拒绝参与的情况下。所以他最终出现时，你知道的，大概在影片进行到90分钟...不对，85分钟左右的时候。

And it really feels like it's skimming along the surface of a production where there are probably enough material to make 27 documentaries just like this. And all of that is with Adam Driver refusing to participate. So he finally shows up, you know, ninety minutes into this sort of like eighty minutes. It's like eighty five in a movie.

就像做个坐下来访谈那样，这可比你看到的其他任何内容都无趣多了。是的。还有一段镜头显示他被允许拍摄德赖弗躲在角落的样子。影片后期你会看到德赖弗念着一段近乎胡言乱语的独白，背景完全是蓝幕，什么都没有，但却非常引人入胜。

Like doing a sit down interview, which is like so much less interesting than anything else that you see. Yeah. And there's also like a sequence like so he was allowed to film out on driver kind of like hiding out the corners. And one of the things you see late in the movie is that driver delivering this monologue that's like kind of nonsense and is entirely blue screen background. There's nothing there, but it's very compelling.

从那个小片段就能感受到他表演的张力。所以即使他极力避开麦克·菲卡斯，他的存在感依然强烈。

Like, kind of see the power of what he's doing just from that one little bit. So his presence is felt even if he's trying to avoid Mike Ficus as much as possible.

当然，当然。是的，这些都很有意思。那些人物个性，你能感觉到——虽然摄像机确实放大了参与者的这种意识——从达斯汀·霍夫曼到那个我现在一时想不起名字的15岁女孩，所有人...

Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, it's all very interesting. The personalities there, the fact that you can sense even with, I mean, certainly the cameras heightened this awareness for the people involved, but the sense that all of these people from your Dustin Hoffman's to the name of the girl who's escaping me right now, like the 15 year

老牌歌手

old No. Singer

年轻的那位唱《你没看过那部电影》的歌手，她唱了

The younger one who sings the you haven't seen the movie, but she sings the

我看过那部电影。

I've seen the movie.

那首关于她贞洁的歌，还挺带劲的。酷。他们都在同一层次上，因为都理解这个项目有多荒诞独特。他们

The song about her virginity, kind of a banger. Cool. Is they all are sort of on the same level because of their shared understanding that this project is wacky and singular They're

共同不理解这个项目在搞什么。

a shared lack of understanding of what this project is doing.

没错。他们都只是，好吧，我们就跟着这趟疯狂旅程走吧。是的。这种氛围看着真有意思。

Exactly. And they're all just like, okay. We're along for this crazy ride. Yeah. And that's a fascinating vibe to to witness.

我是说，即使你显然没看过那部电影，整个过程也超级有趣。但

I mean, it's all it's super fun even if you haven't seen the movie apparently. But

是的。嗯，其中一个最

Yeah. Well, the one of the most

对我来说最具吸引力的角色，我想，是这位女士，我不记得她的名字了，她是美术指导，参与过好几部《银河护卫队》的制作。她刚在亚特兰大完成《银河护卫队3》的工作，就立刻投入了《大都会》的拍摄。她表现得非常圆滑，看起来非常擅长她的工作。她似乎总是能准确理解导演的需求并予以满足。

compelling characters in it to me, I think, is this woman who I don't remember her name, she's the production designer, and she's worked on a bunch of guardians. She's it's like she was just wrapped guardians of the galaxy three in Atlanta and, like, immediately goes on to Megalopolis. And she's, like, super diplomatic and seems really good at her job. And so she seems to, like, come in, you know, being like, oh, you asked for this. I'm gonna give you this.

然后导演会改变主意，想要调整或尝试新方案。最终她成了辞职团队中的一员。但自始至终，她都表现得极其负责。这让我思考两种人的区别：一种能按时完成工作，准确执行导演要求，比如《银河护卫队3》的美术设计（说实话我们没人记得住）；另一种像波普尔那样不断尝试新奇创意——虽然《大都会》评价两极，但即便没看过，我也知道里面肯定有令人难忘的设计。

And then he changes it or he wants to shift or he wants to play. And she's eventually one of the people who quits. And the entire way, she's being very, like, responsible. And it just made me think about the difference between someone who can like do a good job, show up to work on time, give the director what he wants, but does the production design of Guardians of the Galaxy three, which I, you know, don't think any of us really remember at all versus Poplar who's like trying a bunch of weird stuff and like say what you will for Megalopolis. But having not seen it, I know that there's memorable stuff in that.

我认为这种灵感与勤勉、责任之间的张力正是电影的本质，而她在片中的角色让我彻底明白了这一点。

And I think that contrast between inspiration and work and responsibility is kind of what all films are and her role in it really clarified that for me.

看到一部因艺术前瞻性而遭嘲笑的电影幕后花絮实在引人入胜——它敢于让艺术家倾注巨额个人资金实现私人愿景，这恰恰是我们在理念上应该鼓励的行为。我是说，无论好坏，目睹这种动态在片场展开本身就极具魅力。没错，这正是我们眼前发生的景象。

And it's fascinating to see behind the scenes on a movie that was derided for its artistic forward nature, for daring to spend having an artist spend so much of their own money on a personal vision, which is exactly the sort of thing we should be rewarding in the abstract. I mean, it's just fascinating to see that dynamic play out on a set for better or worse. Yeah, it's definitely what we're seeing.

是啊，他会告诉你餐饮预算有多少，他们花了多少钱租用卡车来存放片场物资。那些预算数字本身就很有意思。

Yeah, he tells you how much the catering budget was, how much they spend on trucks to like put all the stuff in out in parking lots. The budget numbers are fascinating.

你还能看到他执导时的样子——每当感到烦躁或无聊时，他就躲进那辆银色鱼形拖车。就像个

And you get to you get to watch him direct whenever he gets annoyed or bored retreat to his Silverfish trailer. It's like a

就像一辆清风房车，

Like an Airstream Yeah,

就像个金属露营车。他就在那里远程执导，仿佛隔着半个地球用新冠式工作法拍戏，尽管人其实还在片场。对，就是那个《超级纪录片》，快去看看吧。

it's like a metal RV. And he goes and directs from there as if he were directing COVID style from halfway across the world, even though he's still on the the set. Yeah. It's you know, Megadoc. Go check it out.

没错。对于想了解电影制作流程——或者反面教材的人来说都值得一看。

Yeah. It's good for anybody who wants to learn more about how movies are made or maybe how they shouldn't be made.

好的。

Okay.

今晚收尾前，我们要聊聊《秃鹫电影联盟》的《勇士集结》选片。本季我们都已提交了自己的选择。但我觉得更值得讨论的是秋季电影节后的风向——你们俩都参加了些电影节，也一直在发表见解。

To wrap up tonight, we're gonna talk a little about our our Vulture Movie League, Fit Warriors picks here. We all have selected ours for the season. But I think in in a broader way, we should just talk about, like, coming out of the fall festival season. You both went to some fests. You've both been weighing in.

凯蒂一直在思考颁奖季的事。这个选秀机制总能让我看清：哪些电影会真正成功？今年秋季电影业能否多维度复苏？衡量标准很多，我们的朋友乔·里德设计的积分规则就涵盖了这些——冲奖热门能得分，票房表现能得分，烂番茄评分也能换积分。所以我们其实在讨论反映行业健康度的多元指标：究竟是百花齐放，还是死气沉沉，或是文化垄断。

Katie's been thinking about the awards season and what this vulture draft always clarifies for me is, it makes me think about what's going to really succeed. Will the movie business succeed this fall in lots of different ways? There's lots of metrics for that, and they're kind of all represented in the way that our friend Joe Reed breaks this competition down each so there's awards factors for picking movies that might do well at the box office for points. You get Rotten Tomatoes score, gives you some points. So we're talking about different metrics of success, which ultimately do reflect a healthy movie business or a not healthy movie business or a monolithic, monocultural movie business.

我很好奇你们二位在选片时的考量——这次我突然意识到（往年都没注意这点），必须选满10部...不对，是8部对吧？

I'm curious what you what you both were thinking when you approached, okay, we need to pick now this is what this was the revelation for me. I guess I didn't think about this in the prior years. You have to pick 10. Like, you have to pick or no. You have to pick eight.

我当时在挑选电影时处于一个阶段，我会把所有筹码押在大概四部电影上，其他的都不考虑，因为其他的看起来都不太有希望。

I was gonna I I was at a point picking movies where I'm like, I would put all my chips on, like, four of these and nothing else because nothing else seems very

这就是难点所在。你得在其中找到一些性价比高的选择。

the rub. That's where you gotta find some dollar buys.

而我在前几年并没有这种体验，那时我觉得可能会有成功的纪录片，也可能有小众电影，或者中等规模的影片。

And I did not have that experience in prior years where I thought there might be documentaries that succeed. There might be little movies. There might be medium tier.

不过你当时是完全从票房角度考虑的吗？

Were you thinking entirely in terms of box office, though?

不。我只是认为成功的组合方式更多样化，比如去年秋季电影的成功分布更广。我得回去看看当时选了哪些电影。但今年我很纠结，也许这和某些电影的权重设置也有关系。你知道，所有电影都有虚拟价值，你有100块虚拟电影币来组建你的团队。

No. I just I thought there were a lot more combinations of of what would be successful, that the success of movies in, say, last fall was more spread out. I'd have to go back and look at what movies I was selecting at that point. But this year, I was torn, and maybe it also has to do with how certain movies are weighted. You know, all the movies have dollar values, and you have a 100 fake movie dollars to go buy your team.

大家都应该去秃鹫平台注册加入我们的联盟——Fit勇士队。你们是怎么开始思考哪些电影会成功的？因为说到底，你们考虑的是电影行业的运作，不仅仅是比赛。所以需要预判哪些电影会表现出色。

And everyone should go and vulture and and sign up and be part of our league, fit warriors. Where how did you how did you guys start thinking about what would succeed? Because at the end of the day, you're thinking about the movie business, not just the competition. So you need to know what will do well.

像任何称职的电影公司高管一样，我只是从最近的过往中学习，对其他一切视而不见。尽管我觉得相对于你们这些家伙我表现得还不错，但我去年的不足之处在于，我试图...

Like any decent studio executive, I just learned from the recent past and had blinders onto everything else. Where did I fall short last year, even though I think I did pretty well relative to you fools, is that I try and

忘了最近去年的事？

forget the recent last year?

很难说。我觉得我低估了票房。我不知道，也不真的关心乔是用什么数学方法计算这些的。但回顾起来，我确实没有拥抱那些大众喜爱的、通俗的选择。

Hard to say. I think I underestimated box office. I don't know. I don't really care to know the math that Joe uses to tally these things up. But just looking back on it, it's like I didn't really embrace crowd pleasers, the populist picks, so to speak.

所以今年，我没有在《魔法坏女巫2》上花钱。我在《魔法坏女巫2》上有原则。我想赢这个游戏，但不想以亵渎上帝的方式赢。但在记起自己在宇宙道德光谱中的位置之前，我确实想过花45美元在《魔法坏女巫2》这类事情上。最终我……你知道，在麦克风前说这个很大胆，会被永远记录下来，但我认为我现在有一副基本无敌的牌组。

And so this year, I didn't spend Wicked two. I have money on Wicked two because I have principles. I want to win this game, but I want to win it without, you know, disgracing God. But I thought for a moment before I remembered where I am in the moral spectrum of the universe that I thought about spending $45 on Wiki two and that sort of thing. I ended up with I I'm like, you know, it's a way it's it's a big thing to say this on a microphone, you know, that's being recorded for all posterity, but I I think I have a basically unbeatable deck right now.

哇哦。哇哦。你想重做清单吗？能和我们分享一下吗？

Wow. Wow. Do you wanna redo list? Can you share with us?

我……现在签约是不是太晚了？我想让所有人都他妈的，就像‘哦’……

I I don't it's is it too late to sign? I want everyone to fucking, like Oh,

我会分享我的‘不’。

I'll share my no.

我觉得

I think

我想每个人都认为自己的牌组无敌。所以他们才会这么组。

think everyone thinks they have an unbeatable deck. That's why they make it.

好吧。你就要

Okay. You are gonna

到达

get to the

他妈的吓得尿裤子的时候了。等我告诉你时，你就会直接

side of the fucking shit your pants right now. When I tell you, you're going to you're just going to

假设你必须一场接一场战斗，这

assuming you have to be like a one battle after another, which

会有血从你耳朵里流出来。

there's going to be blood coming out of your ears.

说说看。

Talk about.

不，实际上我

No, I actually

不知道。另一个要30美元，是的。这就是我的意思，我确实

don't know. Another cost $30 And that yeah. Was what I mean, I do

考虑过左边或另一个选项。

think about left or another.

如果能赚钱，那就

If it makes money, it will be

是件好事。

a good thing.

关键就在于这个'如果'。是啊。

That's the big if. Yeah.

但我我

But I I

我觉得这恐怕不够。

think it's gonna fall short.

这对我来说是个重要因素。

This was a big factor for me.

罗斯，你听听这个。

Listen to this, Ross.

我考虑过花钱的那个，但没能如愿。我们带你去了两次，可票房给我的报价是25美元。好吧，用你那一百块假币。你可以买那个，还能买《哈姆奈特》和其他很多东西，但我就是

The one I considered spending money on, and I couldn't get with I'm we took you a two, but, like, the box office picked to me is $25 Okay. Of your 100 fake dollars. Like, you can have that, and you can have Hamnet and plenty of other room, but I just

没法听。5.99正在说话呢，明白吗？因为那是我汇出的金额。

couldn't Listen. 5. A 99 is talking right now. Okay? Because that's that's how much money I sent.

哇，还剩1美元。

Wow. $1 left over.

我就花99美元吧。嗯，我也是。所以我们应该汇出那一美元。

I'll just spend 99. Mhmm. Same. So we should should send that dollar.

所以这纯粹是100美元。

So it's been a pure $100.

听着。哇。我一直在街头和人们一起看电影。

Listen. Wow. Been out I've been out on the streets watching movies with the people.

而且我确实认为这会给你带来优势。

And I I do think that gives you an edge.

我了解到的是，《疯狂动物城2》，第一购买已完成。准备制作一部

What I learned is that Zootopia two, number one buy Done. Gonna make a

该死的《疯狂动物城2》。是的。不。《疯狂动物城2》能赚十亿美元。

fucking Zootopia two. Yeah. No. Zootopia Zootopia two would make a billion dollars.

你看了《海洋奇缘2》，然后说《疯狂动物城2》会更火。

You saw Moana two and you said Zootopia two will be even bigger.

我认为《疯狂动物城2》确实是个好主意。大热门。

I think it's Zootopia two is valid bit. Crush.

为什么你认为《疯狂动物城2》会有什么特别之处

Why do you why do we think Zootopia two will be something

电影院里坐满了孩子，吵闹的孩子们。但当《疯狂动物城2》预告片一开始，就像置身教堂般肃静。所有人都全神贯注。哈利路亚。阿门。

been in full theaters of children, rambunctious children. And the moment the Zootopia two trailer starts, it's like you're at church. It's just like everyone is so locked in. Hallelujah. Amen.

走着瞧吧。知道还有什么会大赚特赚吗？我称之为《阿凡达：火与烬》的小电影。第二选择。砰。

Let's go. It is gonna make a you know what else is gonna make a lot of money? A little movie I call Avatar Fire and Ash. Number two pick. Boom.

稳赚不赔。我只是...好吧。

In the bank. I'm just I'm like Okay.

我就知道。其实我并不...

I knew it. I I actually don't

我觉得这是个失误。对你来说会是个误判。我虽然很期待看。但这种预测完全像是...

I think this that's a miss. Think that's gonna be a miss for you. I'm very excited to see. But this calculus is all like the

票房收入与技术类奖项提名的综合考量。

combination of box office and below the line tech noms.

哦，不。我哦，我我确实。我确实。

Oh, no. I oh, I I do. I do.

第三点。挑战在于

Number three. Challenge with

《疯狂动物城2》不会获得任何奖项提名。我真心愿意赌它一个提名都拿不到，也许金球奖除外。所以

Zootopia two is it's not gonna get any awards nominations. I truly would put money on not getting a single awards nomination, maybe Golden Globes. So that's

它也会走《海洋奇缘》的老路，这也太... 确实如此。

it's going to go full Moana, too, which is way too. Exactly.

动画类奖项竞争现在处于一个奇怪的状态，而且我觉得这部电影本身在题材上就已经有很多先天优势了。

The animation race is weird in a weird spot, and I think it's got a lot of already stuff in the film model anyway.

我们拭目以待。走着瞧吧。

We'll see. We'll see.

走着瞧。除非你选我的第三部作品，否则奥斯卡评委们才不会买账

We'll see. Oscars don't eat shit unless you're picking my third

嗯，不仅仅是奥斯卡。

Well, not just the Oscars.

一部叫《哈姆奈特》的小电影。哈姆奈特。

A little film called Hamnet. Hamnet.

哈姆奈特。哈姆奈特。哈姆奈特。我的草稿里也有。而且它也在我的草稿里。

Hamnet. Hamnet. Hamnet. My draft as well. And it's also in my draft.

我们都真的

We all really

其实没有。哦，它当时只卖20美元。我觉得乔定价太低了。所以任何从蒂弗那里听说的人都会告诉你，对吧，尤其是在它赢得了人民选择奖之后，我打赌因为当时，我想，几年前有四样东西确实定价过低，大家都有。我打赌这次情况会一样。

haven't really. Oh, it was it was only at $20. I think Joe underpriced it. So that anyone who was hearing about it from Tiffer tell you, right, especially after it won the piece of People's Choice Award, that's I bet because there were, I think, four things was really underpriced a couple years ago and everyone had it. I bet him that's gonna be the same deal.

看，我有幸在填写选票前看过《哈姆奈特》，但我没看到一个接一个的选票。

See, I had the benefit of having seen Hamnet before I made my ballot, but I had not seen one ballot after another.

我也是，因为我是多伦多之后才填的。

Did too because I made mine after Toronto.

而我，我会等到多伦多投票结束后。

And I I wait until after Toronto's vote.

我认为这是唯一明智的做法，真的。好吧，大卫。

I think that is the only that's the only sensible way to do it, I think. All right, David.

所以你和哈姆奈特。好吧。我们有一部小电影叫

So you and Hamnet. Okay. Well, we get a little movie called

《秘密特工》。那么为什么？国际电影《金钱在银行》。

The Secret Agent. So why? International film Money in the Bank.

我很希望它能成真。现在是赛季。

I would love for it to happen. It's season.