科特尼·赫里尔 OLY 与克里斯·费拉拉谈培养大学-ready 的学者运动员

两种视角，一个目标。

Two perspectives, one goal.

一方面，我们有考特尼·赫里利，一位三届奥运会选手、团体铜牌得主，如今在新墨西哥州阿尔伯克基担任教练，培养击剑运动员。

On one side, we've got Courtney Hurley, a three time Olympian and team bronze medalist who's now coaching and building fencers in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

另一方面，我们有克里斯·费拉拉，学校助理校长兼高中部主任，是一位博雅教育者，深入思考青少年如何学习、训练和成长。

And on the other, we have Chris Ferrara, assistant head of school and upper school director who's a liberal arts educator and thinks deeply about how teens learn, train, and grow.

欢迎回到《十五分先》。

Welcome back to First to 15.

我是布莱恩·温德尔。

I'm Brian Windell.

今天，我们为大家请来了几位嘉宾。

Today, we've got a couple of guests for you.

我们将从考特尼的经历和教练视角开始，然后融入克里斯关于学生运动员真正有效方法的见解，最后以曼纳尔学校与杜克城击剑俱乐部合作的新项目为例，探讨学术与高水平训练的平衡。

We're gonna start with Courtney's journey and the coaching lens, then we'll weave in Chris's view on what actually works for student athletes and then use their new program at Manal School in partnership with Duke City Fencing as kind of a case study for balancing academics and high level training.

那么，考特尼和克里斯，我们开始吧。

So, hey, Courtney and Chris, let's dive in.

你好。

Hello.

很高兴来到这里。

Great to be here.

是的。

Yeah.

很高兴你们两位都在，而且你们在同一地点。

It's good to have you both, and you're in the same spot.

有时候我们有两位嘉宾时，他们会分散在不同地方，但能让大家齐聚一堂真是太好了。

Sometimes when we have two guests, they're spread out, but it's great to have everybody in the room.

所以，Courtney，显然你在击剑领域有着传奇般的故事，在击剑圈里可谓家喻户晓。

So, Courtney, like, obviously, you've got such a legendary story in fencing and or a household name in the fencing community.

但对你来说，击剑是什么时候从一项活动，变成你身份的一部分，甚至让你在退役后也能将其融入职业生涯的呢？

But for you, when did fencing become, like, more than just an activity, but, like, part of who you are in a sense and something that you've now been able to weave into your post competitive career?

击剑一直就是我本人。

Well, fencing has always been who I am.

当我考虑从击剑退役时，过渡非常艰难。

The transition was tough when I was thinking of transitioning out of fencing.

我当时想，我该做什么？

I was like, what do I do?

我该怎么做到？

How do I do this?

但转做教练就合理多了，因为我拥有如此多的击剑知识，这多年来一直是我身份的一部分。

But flowing into coaching just made way more sense because again, I have so much fencing knowledge and it was who I am for so many years.

所以把这份知识传递下去，这既简单又必要。

And so pass it on, this was so easy and necessary.

我有这么多知识却不传递下去，那简直是一种罪过。

I mean, have so much knowledge to not pass it on and be criminal.

因此，从运动员转变为教练和导师，这个过渡相当顺利。

So it was a fairly easy transition from athlete to coach and mentor.

是的。

So, yeah.

我得说，当你拥有像你这样的知名度时，这确实很有帮助，因为你有着如此出色的成绩记录，当人们看到科特尼·赫里时，就知道她懂行，这非常棒，也带来了极大的可信度。

And I got to say it helps with when you have the name recognition that you do as well because you come with such a great track record that when someone sees Courtney Hurley, they know, okay, she knows what she's talking about, which is nice and it brings a lot of that credibility.

所以，克里斯，你是一位倡导广泛博雅教育的教育者。

So Chris, you're an educator who champions this broad liberal arts foundation.

那么，这种教育方式中的哪些习惯能够帮助学生运动员在体育——特别是击剑——以及学术上取得成功呢？

So what habits from that approach can set student athletes up to thrive, both in sports, specifically fencing, but also in academics?

你们如何利用曼纳尔学校等机构所擅长的广泛基础，帮助学生运动员在赛场内外都取得成功？

Like how do you use that broad foundation that Manal School and others are so great at to help student athletes succeed both on and off of the playing surface?

我的意思是，我们对教育的一些理解是，很多我们一直在做的事情，长期以来都被证明是有效的，而大家总在试图调整这个公式。

I mean, I think some of the things that we understand about education is that a lot of the things that we do, we have understood that they work for a long time and that everybody's always trying to kind of adjust the formula.

我想，与其说这个公式需要大量调整，不如说我们只需要把它做得非常好。

I guess, if not, we kind of say the formula doesn't really need a ton of adjustment, we just need to do it really well.

那就是教会孩子如何思考，而不是思考什么，建立广泛的知识基础。

And that's teaching kids how to think, not what to think, having a broad base of knowledge.

而这一点正是当今社会正面临巨大挑战的地方。

And this is something that society is really struggling with right now.

我们正在见证AI带来的影响，也看到人们在准备方面的情况——不仅是为了踏入社会、找到第一份工作，更是为了成为有见识的社会成员和公民，能够运用自己的教育背景，真正理解世界如何运转。

We're seeing this with AI, we're seeing this with just how prepared people are, not just to go out into the world and get that first job, but to actually be informed members of society, citizens, and who are going to use their education to make meaningful connections with how the works.

就通识教育而言，正是如此，他们涵盖了所有领域。

When it comes to a liberal arts education, it's just that, they're hitting everything.

他们学习英语、历史、数学和科学，我们希望把这些都做好，帮助孩子们明确自己未来的方向。

They're hitting English, history, mathematics, science, and that we want to do it all well to set these kids up to really know what they're wanting to do in the future.

而体育在这其中也扮演着至关重要的角色，从这个意义上说，我们是一所相当传统的学校。

And that's where athletics is a huge part of that as well, that we are a pretty traditional school in that sense.

因此，我们希望我们的学生能成为学者型运动员。

And so we want our kids to be scholar athletes.

因此，击剑是一项绝佳的机会。

And so fencing is an incredible opportunity.

这是心理上的象棋，对吧？

It's mental chess, right?

或者说是身体力行的象棋。

Or physical chess.

国际象棋。

Chess.

我们通过真正的国际象棋俱乐部进行智力象棋训练。

We do mental chess with the actual chess club.

是的，有很多相似之处。

Yeah, there's a lot of parallels.

是的，但我们希望孩子们拥有广泛的经历。

Yeah, but we want kids to have that broad experience.

这正是重点所在。

That's what it's all about.

我们希望他们既能加入击剑队，也能加入篮球队，同时学会最大化自己的教育，以便能够进入任何他们想上的大学。

We want them to be able to be on the fencing team, but also on the basketball team, but also learning how to maximize their education so that they can go to whatever college that they want to go to.

在很多方面，我们都比较传统，我们并不是一所高科技学校，也许我们对科技持怀疑态度。

And we're pretty traditional in a lot of senses like that, we're really not a high-tech school, we're tech skeptical maybe.

关于这一点，我能说很多，但我希望聚焦在击剑上，这是让孩子们活跃起来的绝佳方式。

So there's a ton I could talk about in terms of, I want to focus on the fencing, which is an incredible way for kids to get active.

这也是孩子们规划未来上哪所大学的绝佳方式。

It's an incredible way for kids to plan out where they want to go to college too.

利用击剑进入顶尖大学，其中蕴含着很强的战略性。

They're really a strategic element to using fencing to get into some incredible schools.

这对任何大学预科学校来说都是重要的一环，因为我们希望最大限度地提升孩子们的能力，让他们能去自己想去的学校，做自己想做的事。

That's an important part for any college prep school, because we want to maximize our kids' ability to go where they want to go and do what they want to do.

是的，我也想在我们接下来的对话中深入探讨这一点。

Yeah, I want to dive into that also throughout our conversation.

但考特尼，让我们现在请你说说。

But Courtney, let's bring in you here.

你成长过程中，即使你可能没这么称呼自己，作为一名学者型运动员，你的经历是怎样的？

What was your experience as a maybe you didn't even call yourself this, but a scholar athlete growing up?

后来你去了圣母大学，那当然是一所顶尖学府，击剑项目也非常出色。

Then eventually you went to Notre Dame, which obviously a great school, great fencing program.

但你是如何应对这些不同事务之间的平衡的呢？

But what was your experience like trying to juggle all of these different things?

你进入圣母大学时，觉得自己具备广泛的知识基础吗？

And do you feel like you had a broad base of knowledge entering Notre Dame?

是的，我的成长经历并不普通，但我非常幸运地上了那所学校。

So yeah, I didn't have a normal upbringing, but I got incredibly lucky with the school that I went to.

他们对我的外出旅行和去各地比赛非常宽容，允许我回来后补作业。

They were incredibly lenient of traveling and going into places and just making up the work.

我回来后，人们，说实话，几乎都见不到我。

When I got back, people, I mean, honestly, would hardly see me.

在高中时，我频繁参加世界杯比赛，而大多数学校都不支持这种做法，大多数学校都不行。

In high school, I was traveling so much to World Cups and like most schools are not okay with that, like most schools.

所以我再次感到非常幸运。

So I got again, incredibly lucky.

他们非常支持我的击剑运动。

They were super supportive of my fencing.

这一点非常重要，那就是学校——不仅是高中，还有大学——对旅行的支持。

That's a huge thing is the school being And also university, not just high school, university being supportive of travel.

他们通常不太支持击剑。

They're usually not super supportive of fencing.

所以我的高中经历很特别，但我的成绩和考试分数都不错。

So I had an unusual high school experience, but I had good grades and I had good test scores.

因此我得以被圣母大学录取。

So I was able to go get accepted to University of Notre Dame.

而这是我们从未真正想过会做到的事情。

And that was something we also never really thought we would do.

当我们刚开始练击剑时，我们以为只要上任何一所学校就行，像普通人一样，但我们没意识到自己有能力，而且当时我们也没有太多这方面的知识。

When we started fencing, we thought we would just go to any school, just a normal person, but we didn't realize we had the capability of We also didn't have that much knowledge.

我的意思是，现在我们对大学击剑和美国击剑的相关信息有了更多了解。

I mean, now we have more knowledge of like fencing at universities and US fencing really puts forth more information about that.

但在我那时候，信息非常少，我甚至直到最后一刻才有人来找我，说：‘哦，你想上大学吗？’

But back when I was not that much information, like I never even got recruited until like the last second people were like, Oh, you want to go to university?

所以那时候的世界完全不同，信息非常匮乏。

So it was a much different world back then, not much information.

但在圣母大学，他们非常非常支持。

But I, you know, at University of Notre Dame, they're very, very supportive.

那里有一个非常棒的项目。

They have a really great program there.

所以他们支持我的出行。

So they were supportive of my travel.

所以我运气很好，但大多数人并没有这种能出行并得到各方支持的幸运。

So I got lucky, but like most people don't experience that luckiness to travel and you have support behind you from all different angles.

这就是我成功的主要原因。

And that's the big reason why I was successful.

所以这里的一个重要因素是，他们了解击剑，知道需要什么。

So that is a big factor here that they know about the fencing, they know what it takes.

我们多次讨论过高水平击剑需要什么，需要多少出行和时间投入。

We've had many conversations of what fencing, the high level takes, how much travel and how much time commitment.

因此他们非常愿意提供支持。

And so they're willing to be really supportive here.

我想补充一点，在西方的学校，任何涉及体育运动的人，都会发现这里的旅行频率与我成长的地方相比非常不同。我是在纽约长大的，这里我们每周都要坐巴士，单程六到八个小时去参加比赛。

I would add on being in a Western school, anybody who deals with athletics in a Western school, the travel here compared to where I grew up, I grew up in New York, here, we regularly get on the bus every week for six to eight hours one way to go play a game.

因此，支持学生运动员已成为我们文化中根深蒂固的一部分，学术安排必须具有灵活性。

So we've always had that built into our culture that to support student athletes, academics needs to be flexible.

技术真正发挥作用的地方在于我们的学习管理系统Canvas，学生在外出时也能访问课程内容，尽可能跟上学习进度。

And the areas where technology really does make that effective is with our learning management system, Canvas, they can access that content while they're gone, keep up with things as much as possible.

而这正是我们的目标：支持我们的运动员去参与那些能让他们取得成功的事情。

And that's really what the goal is, that we can support our athletes to go and do these things that are going to make them successful.

是的，我想到一个挑战是，当青少年为体育运动外出旅行时，他们必须具备这种自我驱动力，因为没有老师在旁边提醒你：‘这个作业下课前要交。’

Yeah, and a challenge with that, it occurs to me, is when you are traveling for sports as a teenager, you have to have that kind of self motivation because you don't have a teacher over your shoulder saying, hey, this assignment is due at the end of class here.

有时候你根本不在教室里，也就没有这种督促。

You aren't in the classroom sometimes to have that.

那么，你关于教授时间管理与责任感的教学理念是什么？这些品质将伴随学生，远超他们从你项目中毕业之后的时间。

So what is your philosophy to teaching that time management, that responsibility, that honestly is a lesson that's going to stay with that student well beyond when they graduate from your program?

我们知道，很多我们这一代人及更早世代认为理所当然的事情，对现在的孩子来说却更加困难。

We know that a lot of things that maybe my generation and older generations took for granted, they're more difficult for kids now.

有太多事情在拉扯着他们，让他们分心。

There are so many things pulling them in different directions.

如果你看看因缺勤而导致的辍学率，它实际上非常高。

If you look at, say, the recidivism rate for lack of attendance, it's really high.

我认为，现在大多数学区大约有百分之二十到三十的学生长期缺勤。

I think in most school districts now, approximately twenty to thirty percent of kids are chronically absent.

因此，对我们来说，这并不是我们需要应对的问题，因为门洛学校学术项目的核心理念之一就是高挑战、高支持。

And so for us, that's not something that we have to deal with, because one of the cores of our academic program at Menaul School is this idea of high challenge, high support.

我们知道，孩子们在某些方面遇到困难时，需要更具体、更明确的支持才能完成任务。

We know that some of the things that kids struggle with, they need more concrete and clear support to accomplish.

我们需要在安排时间、保持任务进度等方面给予他们更多帮助。

We do have to help them a little bit more with things that we would consider scheduling, keeping tasks on track.

我们严格要求作业按时提交，因为我们认为这能教会他们正确的技能，但同时我们也有学术顾问和班主任主动联系学生，确保他们不偏离轨道。

We are strict with making sure that things are due because we think that teaches them the right skills, but we have people, academic advisors, homeroom teachers who are really going to reach out and make sure that kids are not getting off track.

我们对这些问题的管理比我在童年时期经历的要细致得多，那时候如果你迟交或没交作业，那就活该了。

We really do manage that a lot more carefully than certainly I experienced growing up as a kid, where if you were late or didn't turn something in, well, too bad.

我们努力确保孩子们获得更多的支持，以便他们能够完成所需的任务。

We really try to make sure that kids have a great deal more support so that they can get what they need to get done.

因为我们要求他们做的也更多。

Because we're asking them to do a lot more too.

科特尼，你认为自己在支持学生的全面发展、帮助他们以各种方式取得成功方面扮演着什么角色？

And Courtney, what do you see as your role there in supporting the whole person and making sure that they're succeeding in all the different ways that they want?

是的，我确实注意到了这一点，我的意思是，这一代孩子——我不确定是否所有世代都如此，这是我第一次担任教练。

Yeah, so I definitely noticed that, I mean, this generation, I don't know if it's all generations, this is my first generation of coaching.

这些孩子身上往往有太多事情在同时进行。

That most of these kids have like so many things going on.

这是一大挑战：好吧，我们先聚焦于一件事，设定优先级，弄清楚什么更重要。

And that's one thing that's tough is to, okay, let's focus on one thing here and put priorities and what's more important.

我非常理解，生活中除了击剑还有其他事情。

And I'm very lenient of understanding that there's other things to life and fencing.

这并不是说，你知道的，我不像以前那样，你知道的，我不是那样的人。

It's not like, you know, how I'm not, you know, it's not me.

这都是家长的问题，很多教练都会遇到这样的困扰：这不是关于我，而是关于他们。

It's all parents, a lot of coaches have that trouble of like, okay, it's not about me, it's about them.

重要的是别人看重什么，而不是你认为重要的东西。

It's important to other people, not what's important to you.

但同时，如果某件事对他们来说确实重要，是他们的优先事项，我们就必须找到正确的路径，以及实现他们目标所需的一切。

But also making sure that if it is important, if it is their priority, then we have the right road to go down and what it takes to what they want to achieve, have what they want to achieve.

让我们更深入地探讨一下如何平衡这些不同的优先事项。

So let's dive a little bit more into the realities of juggling all these different priorities.

你能给我们描述一下曼纳尔学院一位准备上大学的学生典型的一周吗？

So can you give us a typical week for someone who is a college bound student at Manal?

他们的运动安排是怎样的？

Like, what is the athletic schedule?

他们的学业安排又是怎样的？

What type of schoolwork schedule do they have?

他们到底什么时候才有时间睡觉？

When do they actually have time to sleep?

你知道，就是那种事情。

You know, things like that.

比如，一周是什么样子的？

Like, what does a week look like?

你们俩都答不上来。

And neither of you could answer that.

所以，从学术和课外活动的角度来看，如果我考虑的是一名即将上大学的学生，大概在十年级或十一年级，他们每个学期通常会选修两到五门大学先修课程（AP）。

So, I mean, from the academic side and the extracurricular, if I'm looking at a college bound student, maybe somewhere around tenth or eleventh grade, they're taking somewhere between hopefully two to five AP classes each semester.

这些课程很有挑战性。

Those are challenging courses.

这是大学水平的学习。

That's college level work.

因为大学需要看到这些，才能确认你确实具备了严格的学术背景。

Because that's what the colleges need to see to say, yes, you are checking the box for rigor.

我们也在关注课外活动，不仅限于体育方面，他们还必须参加某种社团。

We are looking at extracurriculars and not just in the athletic side, but they've got to be on some kind of a club.

他们不仅需要加入社团，还要培养领导经验。

They've got to be not just in a club, but developing a leadership experience.

所以，是的，你想参加模拟联合国，但你更应该朝着担任模拟联合国主席的方向发展，展现出真正的领导力，因为这才是大学所看重的。

So yeah, you want to be in Model UN, but you want to be developing towards a Model UN presidency, something where you really show leadership because this is what colleges need to see.

此外，如果我们设想这些具有挑战性的课程每晚每门课大约有一小时的作业，那么平均每个晚上会有两到三小时的作业量。

In addition to that, if we're imagining approximately an hour of homework per class every night for a lot of those challenging courses, we're looking at somewhere between two to three hours of homework on an average evening.

关于体育，我们会讨论如何将击剑融入日常安排，这确实有很大帮助。

Athletics, we'll talk about how we incorporate fencing into the structure of the day, which really does help that a lot.

如果我参加篮球队，放学后要花两小时。

If I'm on the basketball team, that's two hours after school.

如果我参加橄榄球队，放学后也要花两小时。

If I'm on the football team, two hours after school.

因此我们知道，要进入这些竞争激烈的环境，学校要求孩子们在大约十一个不同方面都取得成功。

So we know that to get into these competitive environments, they are asking kids to be successful in like 11 separate dimensions.

他们必须做志愿者，必须成为领导者，必须参与课外活动，必须让这一切都发生。

They've got to be volunteering, they've got to be leaders, they've got to be in extracurriculars, they've got to be making all these things happen.

这比我们以往要求他们做的还要多。

And it's more than we've ever asked them to do.

确实更多。

It is absolutely more.

因此，对这一点进行主动管理至关重要。

So having active management of that is really key.

至于击剑方面。

And in terms of the fencing side.

是的，请讲，科特尼。

Yeah, please Courtney.

是的，我们这里有初中和高中，初中生每天训练七十分钟。

Yeah, do, we have middle school and high school here and the middle school trains for seventy minutes.

每天七十分钟？

Seventy minutes per day?

每天？

Per day?

是的。

Yeah.

然后高中是八十五分钟，是的，八十五分钟。

And then the high school is eighty Yes, eighty five.

我有时也会把他们合并在一起训练，因为我觉得让所有人一起击剑很好。

And I combine them too at some point because I think it's good to get everyone fencing together.

这已经很多了。

So it's a lot.

我认为这是他们课时最长的课。

It's their most, I think, minute class.

是的，我们全校采用分块课程安排，有A日和B日。

Yeah, so we have an all school, we follow a block schedule with like an A day, B day.

所以大多数学生每学期选八门课，一天上四门，第二天上另外四门，轮流交替。

So most kids are taking eight classes, but four on one day and then four the next day and it kind of flip flops.

这是减少作业负担的一种方式，这样你就不会每天都有八门课的作业第二天交。

That's one of the ways we reduce the homework load so that you're never having eight classes of homework due like the next day.

但我们的击剑项目中，击剑队员每天都有一个固定的击剑时段。

But with our fencing program, our fencers have a fencing block every single day.

所以他们能保证每天有八十五分钟的时间，比如我在高中时，每天都能有八十五分钟。

And so they get that guaranteed, like if I'm in high school, I get eighty five minutes of time every day.

除此之外，放学后他们还可以和考特尼进行私人课程。

And then in addition to that, after school, they can do private lessons with Courtney.

我们校园里还有杜克城击剑俱乐部，所以这些击剑队员下午和晚上来的时候，可以和其他人一起训练。

We also have Duke City on our campus, so when those fencers come in in the afternoons and evening, they get to bow with other people.

因此，孩子们能投入击剑的时间几乎没有上限。

And so really the sky is the limit for like how much of these kids can be fencing.

如果他们真的想练，每天轻松就能练到三个小时。

They could be fencing up to three hours a day easily if they really wanted to.

我们已经看到了击剑队员的进步，他们中有些人才刚开始练习，大概才第四个月左右。

And we've seen that development from the fencers who've only been doing it now for, they're just starting their fourth month maybe.

是的，这些梅纳娃的孩子们都是在八月、九月才刚开始学击剑的。

Yeah, so we just, all these Menaw kids have just started fencing in August, September.

这是一个巨大的转变。

And so it's a big transition.

这还是一个我一直在努力改变的重要文化问题。

And it's also a cultural one that is a big one that I've been trying to change.

我去年才来到阿尔伯克基。

I just came to Albuquerque last year.

我要改变这种文化，让击剑变得更竞技化，提供更多机会，而不仅仅把它当作一种爱好。

And so changing the culture of more competitive and opening up more opportunities with fencing instead of just tying it as a hobby.

我正在推进这种文化转变。

It's a culture shift that I'm in the process of doing.

我们正在本内尔启动击剑项目，将其提升到一个新的水平。

We're in the process of starting at Benel, taking fencing to a different level.

我们刚刚在这里举办了第一届本地比赛，16名孩子中有14名获得了第三名。

And we just had our first local competition here and one of them in all kids got third, Y 14 out of 16 kids.

不错。

Nice.

所以她后来看了几个月的击剑。

So then she looked at fencing for a few months.

是的，进展相当不错。

So yeah, it's going pretty well.

这一定感觉特别特别好。

That's got to feel really, really good.

嗯。

Yeah.

没错，信任这个项目的关键在于，当你制定一个NCAA击剑赛程时，就是让孩子们每天都能与业内最高水平的专家一起训练，从而迅速提升。

That's what the trust is in the program is when you build an NCAA fencing schedule, that is really just getting kids fencing every day with the highest level of expertise in the business, like, improve really, really quickly.

他们会在训练结束时成长并变得有竞争力。

Like, they're gonna develop and become competitive by the time they're done

用绳子。

with with the rope.

项目。

Program.

是的。

Yeah.

在最初的几个月里，进步非常巨大。

Mean, in the first few months, there was such a huge improvement.

我们每周练五天。

And we're doing it five days a week.

大多数孩子并不会每周五天都上 fencing 课，我们每周练四天，但他们会给孩子们一天时间进行视频分析。

That's most kids are not doing classes five days a week and fencing, we fenced four days a week, but they give them a day off of video analysis.

所以这基本上加速了进程，对吧？

So it accelerates the timeline basically, right?

因为一个学生在传统击剑俱乐部可能每周只上一节课，对吧？

Because a student might be taking one class a week at a traditional fencing club, right?

所以理论上，五周的进步被压缩到了一周内，对吧？

And so five weeks worth of progress is condensed into a single week, hypothetically, right?

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

大多数杜克城的孩子每周上两节课。

Most of the Duke City kids, they take two classes a week.

这算是正常的。

That's kind of the normal.

对于大多数击剑俱乐部来说，每周上两到三天课是很正常的。

And that's normal for most fencing clubs, two or three days classes a week.

这相当普遍。

And that's pretty normal.

但没错，五天确实很多。

But yeah, five days is a lot.

但事实上，他们每周只上两天课，而且是在一天结束之后，上完一整天的学之后。

And it's two days a week at the end of the day, after they've done everything, they've gone to school, all day.

一天结束的时候很难再重新投入学习一项新活动，因为他们已经太忙了。

Can be the end of the day is a challenging time of the day to really say, okay, I'm going to get back into like learning an activity like again, and then they're so busy.

那么，Courtney，具体来说，关于Manal的击剑项目，如果你看你们目前已经开始发展的趋势，你希望它在三到五年后达到什么程度？

So what, Courtney, thinking specifically about the fencing program at Manal, where would you like to see it in, let's say, three, five years, if you're looking at the current trajectory of what you all have already started to grow there?

嗯。

Yeah.

我希望它能朝着模仿大学项目的方向发展，但需要实现的是，我只能担任花剑教练。

Well, I would like to see it kind of We were on the timeline of mimicking like a university program, but what things need to happen is that we need to have I only coach FA.

这是三种不同的项目。

They're three different sports.

所以我不能真正地指导——我或许能教一些非常初级的技巧，但我们希望增加一名花剑和重剑教练，配备全部三种武器，并每周安排几天力量训练。

So I can't really coach I mean, I could probably coach maybe to like a very, very beginner level, but we would want to add a coach for foil and saber and have all three weapons and have weight training a few days a week.

所以，我希望朝着大学式的训练时间表努力，这样学生们能为大学击剑和他们个人的目标做好准备。

So a university type schedule, that's what I'm aiming towards so that they can be prepared for university fencing and also their own personal goals.

在国家级和国际级比赛中取得好成绩。

Doing well competition nationally, internationally.

这就是我们的目标。

That's the goal.

那么，克里斯，我们能不能稍微宏观一点谈谈？你能解释一下，为什么要把体育项目纳入课程中吗？

So Chris, can we talk just kind of like zooming out a little bit and can you explain like why even incorporate athletics into the program at all?

如果有人持怀疑态度，说你们占用了课堂时间，让学生每天花七十到八十五分钟去练击剑。

Like if someone, a real skeptic says, you're taking time out of the classroom for them to go do fencing for seventy or eighty five minutes during the day.

当然，我理解这其中的价值，但你会如何向那些认为学生本可以把这段时间用在图书馆研究X、Y或Z的人解释呢？

And of course, I understand the value there, but how would you explain to someone who says, couldn't they be spending that time in the library researching X, Y, or Z?

当我们审视什么因素能让学生在大学取得成功时，这一点非常值得深入研究数据。

So when we look at what makes a student successful in college, this is an area where you really want to dive into the data.

大学成功的第一决定因素是GPA。

The number one determinant of success in university is GPA.

那就是你在学校课程中的表现如何？

It's how well do you do in your classes at school?

第二决定因素并不是标准化考试成绩。

The second determinant of success, it's not standardized test scores.

也不是你记忆了多少信息，而是参与校队级别的体育运动。

It's not how much you or how well you memorized some information, it's actually participation in varsity level sports.

在我来到这所学校并深入研究之前，我并不知道我们真正需要做的是什么。

This is something that I didn't know before I came to this school and really started diving into it, what do we really need to do?

我以前可能更偏向于学术型的人。

I was maybe more of an academically minded person.

我意识到，理解并看到学生在学习生活技能、韧性、奉献精神方面实际上需要做什么——当你设定一个目标，就必须采取必要措施去实现它，绝不放弃。

And I would say that understanding that and seeing what a student actually has to do in terms of learning life skills, resiliency, dedication, that you set a goal and you do what's necessary to accomplish that goal, you don't give up.

这些正是竞技体育中培养的技能。

Those are absolutely the skills that happen in competitive level sports.

而这些技能并不一定能在普通的英语课上获得。

And that's not necessarily the skills that happen in like an everyday English class.

这些技能实际上能让孩子们在大学乃至生活中更加成功。

Those skills actually allow kids to be more successful in university, and then obviously in life.

因此，对于马纳尔这样的学校，我们的核心使命是培养学生的智力、身体和精神。

So with a school like Manal, our literal mission is we educate students in mind, body and spirit.

自创办以来，这一直是我们身份的核心组成部分。

And so that has been a core component of who we are since the beginning.

而这正是体育运动真正发挥作用的地方。

And that's where that athletic piece really comes in.

它不仅有助于你的身体，显然也会提升你的思维和精神，因为它赋予你追求成功和竞争力的动力。

It's that that's going to help, yeah, your body, but obviously your mind and your spirit as well, because it's giving you that drive to be successful, to be competitive.

因此，它的重要性远远超出了我最初的想象。

So it really is a key component more than I had originally thought.

正因为如此，我让我的孩子们参与了竞技体育。

And so I've gotten my kids into competitive athletics because of that.

是的，这真是太有趣了。

Yeah, that's super fascinating.

柯特尼，你进入大学时，作为一位经历过高水平运动员所面临各种挑战的人，你的体验如何？

Courtney, what was your experience like there, entering college as somebody who had dealt with all the different things that a high level athlete has to deal with?

从旅行、压力，到与他人相处、学会如何面对失败，这一切都是如此。

Everything from the travel, the pressure, dealing with other people, knowing how to lose, right?

因为并不是每场比赛你都能赢，没有任何运动员能做到这一点。

Because you didn't win every bout, no athlete does.

你是如何将这些经验融入到圣母大学的学业中，甚至融入到毕业之后的生活中的呢？

How did you incorporate those lessons, not into your fencing at Notre Dame necessarily, but into the academic side and even your life beyond graduation.

是的。

Yeah.

我认为克里斯说的完全正确，击剑能激发你身上的各种品质，比如毅力。

I think what Chris was saying is absolutely true that fencing brings out all these different parts of you, perseverance.

击剑非常考验毅力，这种品质也体现在我生活的其他方面。

Fencing's a lot about perseverance that shows in other parts of my life.

如果我想要什么，我就会去争取，不达目的绝不罢休。

I, you know, if I want something, I, you know, I go and get it and I don't stop until I get it.

这绝对是来自击剑的启发。

That's definitely from fencing.

所以，你在各种运动中学到的这一切，都会影响你如何与生活互动。

So this, all these things you learn from all these sports, drives how you interact with life.

因此，击剑是我取得如此成功的一个重要原因。

So fencing is a huge reason why I was so successful.

刚到圣母大学时，我确实更像个运动员。

Getting to Notre Dame, I was definitely more of a jock.

学业并不是我的首要任务。

Academics wasn't my number one.

它肯定是我的第二位，但我显然必须把第一位做好，才能做好第二位。

It was definitely my number two, but I obviously had to have number one in order to do number two.

因此，击剑培养了这些特质，帮助我度过生活中的方方面面，无论是学校、求职面试还是当教练时。

So fencing really developed these traits that helped me through all parts of life or at school or interviews for jobs or at coaching.

所以，击剑培养了这些不同的品质，真正帮助你应对人生。

So that develops these different kinds of traits that really helps you through life.

我认为柯特尼有点低估自己了。

I think Courtney's selling herself short a little bit too.

她拥有非凡的智慧。

She has a tremendous intellect.

这位女士，当我需要说，嘿，我们来写点什么或者做点什么的时候。

This is someone who, when I've had to say like, hey, let's write this up or let's do this thing.

她总是全力以赴，产出令人惊叹的内容。

She just drives it through and produces incredible content.

她非常聪明，而且表达能力极强。

And she's so smart and she's so well spoken.

他们做得真的很棒。

So they did a really good job.

她确实做得非常好。

Like, she did a really good job.

没错。

Yeah.

你们能有她，真是幸运。

Y'all are lucky to to have her for sure.

克里斯，家长在学者型运动员中扮演什么角色？

Chris, what's the role of the parent here in a scholar athlete?

他们该如何支持，又不显得过度干预，确保学生——无论我们称其为学者型运动员还是其他——能真正掌握自己的过程？

Like, how can they support without being overbearing and making sure that the student, the scholar athlete, whatever term we wanna use, owns the process themselves?

你知道，谈到育儿成功，这条线很难把握。

You know, when it comes to parenting success, it's a really hard line to walk.

我们想讨论的是，育儿有不同的方式。

What we'd like to talk about is there's different styles of parenting.

有一种放任型父母，他们会说：嘿，你想做什么？

There's the permissive parent who says, hey, what do you want to do?

好吧，你想做什么都行，太棒了。

Okay, whatever you want to do, that's fantastic.

还有一种专制型父母，他们会说：你必须按我的计划来做，这就是我们要做的。

There's the authoritarian parent who says, you're doing what my plan is to do, and that's what we're going to do.

然后还有一种权威型父母。

And then there's the authoritative parent.

这真的非常困难。

And it's honestly really tough.

我没法给你一个完美的答案，因为我想说的是，大概百分之九十达到奥运水平的孩子，他们的父母都是专制型的。

Don't have a great answer for you because one of the things that I'll say is probably ninety percent of the kids who get to Olympic level probably had authoritarian parents.

他们可能有父母会说：你必须起床，去练习这个，你得在这些年里一直做这些事，因为那时可能还没有发展出足够的内在动力。

They probably had parents who said, you're going to wake up and you're going to practice this and you're going to do this for these years of your life because there maybe wasn't yet developed that level of motivation.

我们希望在所追求的文化中培养的是权威型的教养方式。

What we want in the culture that we want to develop is the authoritative one.

我们真正想说的是：嘿，我们想为你提供一条路径，我们想为你提供能够真正引导你走这条路的专家。

We really want to say, hey, want to give you a pathway, hey, I want to provide experts who can really guide you along that pathway.

但我们不希望制造那种巨大的压力环境，比如：你必须做到最好，否则你就是失败者，你不算成功。

But we don't want the incredible pressure cooker of like, you've got to be the best, otherwise, you're a washout, you're not successful.

成功来自于培养正确的习惯。

Success comes from building the right habits.

你不能只是随手一按开关，而是需要慢慢积累，孩子们会看到自己正在取得进步。

And you can't just flick a switch, like you have to build that slowly over time, kids see that they're being successful.

这会建立起一种内在的动力感。

And that builds the sense where now they're motivated internally.

他们真正意识到：我正在走人们为我规划的这条道路，而且我看到了它的成功。

They really see, okay, what I'm doing this pathway that people are laying out for me, I see it successful.

对于像索菲亚这样的孩子，她虽然有一点武术背景，但没有击剑经验，而我们正是提供支持的人。

So for a kid like Sophia, who came in with, yeah, a little bit of a martial arts background, but no fencing background, but we were the guys.

我不认为她的父母曾来找我，说你必须在某一天前把索菲亚培养成某种类型的击剑手。

I don't think her parents ever came to me and said, you've got to make Sophia develop into this kind of a fencer by this day.

真正重要的是，我们信任你们能提供正确的结构和支持，让这里成为她可以尽可能成功的场所，而她在短时间内已经取得了相当大的进展。

Really it was about we trust you to provide the right structure, the right supports, and that this is a place where she can be as successful as she wants to be, and she's taken it pretty far in a short time.

所以我想，这正是我想总结的：权威型而非专制型。但我当然不会说专制方式无效，毕竟像泰格·伍兹的父母、维纳斯和威廉姆斯的父母就是这样做的，很难断言这种方式行不通。

So I guess that's what I would distill it to, authoritative rather than authoritarian, but I'm certainly not going to say it doesn't work because parents like Tiger Woods' parents, Venus and William's parents, that's how they did It's really hard to say you can't do that.

考特尼，作为一位达到击剑最高水平的人，你的看法是什么？

Courtney, what's your perspective there as someone who made it to the very highest levels of fencing?

我认为，我们这一代人已经发现，专制方式不再那么有效了。

I would say that we're in a new generation of that authoritarian doesn't really work so well anymore.

我们现在拥有更多关于心理健康的资源。

We have a lot more resources about mental health.

我正努力灌输一种观念，因为对我而言，这又是幸运的。

And I'm trying to instill Cause for me, again, was lucky.

我的家人，我的父母非常支持我。

My family, my parents were super supportive.

他们从没告诉我必须做什么。

They never told me I had to do something.

这有点儿，你知道的，没有明说，但很明显是那种感觉：哦，你知道，我们应该继续下去，因为你真的很棒。

It was kind of, you know, not said out loud, but it was definitely like, Oh, you know, we should keep that same because you're really good.

所以没人强迫我，也没人把我架在火上烤，但这一切都源于我自己。

And so no one really forced me, no one held me over fire, but that was within myself.

所以我又一次很幸运。

So I got, you know, lucky again.

归根结底，这就是运气，这是我爸爸会说的话。

That's really what it boils down to is luck, is what my dad would say.

一切都靠运气。

It's all about luck.

有很多成功的运动员是被逼着说‘你必须这么做’的。

There were a lot of successful athletes that were held over a fire saying, You have to do this.

你必须训练X天，X小时。

You have to train X amount of days, X amount of hours.

但这真的不利于体育运动的心理层面。

And that really doesn't lend its way with the mental part of sports.

所以我认为这一代人更难找到如何在努力工作和不耗尽精力、不讨厌自己所做之事之间取得平衡。

And so I think this generation has even more rough figuring out how do we balance working hard and working and also not burning out, not hating what I'm doing.

他们可以说是第一代试图解决这个问题的人。

It's like they're the first generation to figure this out.

所以要平衡这一点很难。

So it's a tough thing to balance.

这正是我们都在努力摸索的事情。

And that's what we're all trying to figure out, sort of.

有太多压力了。

There's so many pressures.

孩子们承受着太多压力。

The kids have so many pressures.

正如考特尼所说，他们更善于表达自己的需求，比如：‘也许压力太大了，我们需要退一步。’

And like Courtney said, they are much better about advocating like, hey, maybe this is too much pressure, maybe we need to step back.

因此，我们在这里想要建立的就是一个支持性的环境。

But that's why a supportive environment is what we want to build here.

正因如此，我信任考特尼来打造这样的环境，告诉她：‘这就是我们变得有竞争力的方式，这就是我们提升声誉的方式，同时不会让情况变得不健康，不会让孩子们讨厌击剑项目。’

And that's why I trust Courtney to be the one to build that and say like, all right, this is how we get competitive, this is how we up our names, without taking it to the level of getting unhealthy, getting to a place where kids don't want to be in a fencing program.

我想说的一件事是，我从未告诉过你们，但我从我们的学生那里听说过：击剑是他们一天中最开心的时刻。

One of the things that I will say, I've never told you this, but I've heard this from our students, fencing is the best part of their day.

当他们说：‘击剑是我暂时摆脱压力的时候，我来到这里，只是单纯地活动身体。’

When they say like, hey, fencing is a time where I step out of the pressure to some degree and I get in here and I'm just being active.

我活在当下，不再担心接下来会发生什么。

I'm in the moment, I'm not worried about what comes later.

因此，他们能够真正地做孩子，参与有趣又富有挑战性的体育运动，有支持他们、激励他们变得更好的人陪伴，却不会陷入不健康的状态。

And so they're just really being able to be kids and being able to participate in really fun and challenging athletics with the person who supports them and is pushing them to be better without trying to get into like an unhealthy.

而且这也有它的意义，对吧？

And it has a purpose too, right?

就像我们一直在说的，这很有趣也很活跃，但背后有更深的意义。

Like we've been saying, like it's fun and it's active, but there's an underlying purpose.

Courtney，你从这段经历中得到了什么？

Courtney, what do you get out of this experience?

显然你为这些学生付出了很多，但对你来说，什么是最令人享受的部分？

Like obviously you're giving so much to these students, but what's enjoyable about it for you?

是什么让你每天充满热情地起床去教这些孩子？

What makes you so excited to get up and go to work every day and teach these kids?

我觉得这对我来说是一个新的挑战。

I would say it's a new challenge for me.

我一生都在为自己的目标努力，激励自己。

It's a new challenge to, I've worked so hard my whole life for myself and getting myself motivated.

而现在，这是一个不同的挑战：激励他人，激发他人的竞争心。

And now it's a different challenge of getting other people motivated and other people competitive.

因此，我把这看作是一个挑战，一个非常有趣的挑战。

And so I see it as a challenge and a very interesting challenge.

这在这里有点创新。

It's sort of innovative over here.

所以这真的很令人兴奋和新颖。

So it's really exciting and new.

而且我认为，再次强调，当我想要什么时，我就会去争取。

And I think that, again, when I want something, I go and get it.

这就是我现在正在做的事情。

That's what I'm doing right now.

而且这么早就看到一些初步成果，感觉一定很棒吧。

And it's got to feel good when you see some of the early results too so early.

不是说只关注奖牌，但这确实表明你的指导正在取得成效，而且你正走在一条非常好的轨道上。

Not that it's just all about the medals, but it does show that the coaching that you're doing is having some really success and you're on such a great track.

是的，我觉得看到一些孩子转变真的很有趣，比如从随意击剑——有些孩子只是为了好玩，但现在我推动他们、打开更多机会之门，他们变得更兴奋，训练也更刻苦了。

Yeah, I think it's really fun to see like some of the kids who like turn from, oh, like abusive fencing, like some kids were just doing it for fun, but now that like I'm pushing and I'm opening up more doors and they're getting more excited and they're training more.

Manol那边也在慢慢发生同样的变化，他们在比赛后看到了这一点，因为每天只训练不比赛是完全不同的体验。

That's the same slowly with Manol that they're seeing after the competition, because it's so different when you just train every day and you don't compete.

然后就觉得，天啊，真无聊，我觉得。

And then it's kind of, Oh man, it's boring, I think.

当比赛后有少数孩子、少数男生，即使表现得不是特别好，他们也说：这太刺激了。

And when there were a few kids, few men all kids after the competition, even though they didn't do it particularly well, they were like, this is so exciting.

现在我想多来训练，我想变得更好。

Like now I want to come and train more and I want to get better.

当你参赛时，看到自己能做什么、别人能做什么，真的会激发你的斗志，让你更有渴望。

And it really motivates to see whenever you compete to see what you're capable of, what other people are capable of, gets you more hungry.

所以那场比赛后，看到一些孩子说：我真的想多训练了，这真的很棒。

And so that was really cool after that competition to see like some of the kids like, I really want to start training more.

这真的太棒了。

So that was really cool.

所以，看到每个人都更有动力，更想参与我如此热爱的这项运动。

So yeah, seeing everyone get motivated more and wanting to do the sport that I love so much more.

这非常有成就感。

That's very rewarding.

我喜欢这一点。

I love that.

所以，克里斯，对于正在考虑像Manal或Manal本身这样的学校的家庭，你们独特的模式，他们该如何评估这是否适合呢？

So Chris, for families who are looking at a school like Manal or Manal itself, that unique model that you all have there, how did they assess whether it's the right fit?

比如，他们应该问自己、你或者招生人员哪些问题，来判断这是否适合他们的孩子？

Like what's the maybe questions that they should ask either themselves or you or the recruiter, the admissions person to see if this is the right fit for their child.

尤其是私立学校，适配性才是关键。

When it comes to especially private schools, fit is the game.

我们关注的是什么能让孩子取得成功。

Like that's what we about is what's going to make a child be successful.

所以，我每天都会和潜在的家庭、学生交谈，我们想了解他们究竟在寻找什么？

So every day I have conversations with potential families, potential students, And we want to understand, like, what are they looking for?

他们的目标是什么？

What are their goals?

人们选择私立学校的原因多种多样。

And people go to private schools for a lot of different reasons.