埃里克·纳索斯谈大学俱乐部击剑的乐趣

这么说你喜欢击剑运动。

So you love fencing.

你即将上大学，但你所钟爱的学校可能没有NCAA队伍，甚至没有任何校队项目。

You're headed to college, but the school you fell in love with maybe doesn't have an NCAA team or or any varsity program at all.

那该怎么办呢？

Now what?

对许多学生而言，大学击剑俱乐部就是你的答案。

For a huge number of students, college club fencing is the answer you get.

真正的队友、专业的教练、实际的比赛，还有与学业、实习及校园生活其他事务相协调的赛程安排。

Real teammates, real coaching, real competition, plus a schedule that fits in with academics, internships, and everything else going on in campus life.

今天，我们邀请到了马凯特大学校击剑俱乐部主教练埃里克·纳索斯，他同时也是该俱乐部前任主席和队长。

Today, we're joined by Eric Nassos, head coach of Marquette University's collegiate club in Milwaukee and a former president and captain of that team.

他曾亲身参与建设这支队伍。

He helped build this squad from the inside.

他指导过新人选手和经验丰富的队员，并带领团队从分区赛一路征战至美国大学击剑联盟全国锦标赛。

He's helped guide walk ons and veterans and also navigate the broader club landscape from conference meets to the USA CFC nationals.

在本期节目中，我们将讨论高中毕业后的选择，如何评估这些大学俱乐部，家长应该在哪些方面参与，也许还有哪些方面不该参与，以及在校内组建或发展团队的一些具体步骤。

So in this episode, we'll talk about your options after high school, how you can evaluate these collegiate clubs where parents should be involved and maybe even where they shouldn't, and then also some concrete steps to build or grow your team on campus.

我是布莱恩·温德尔。

So I'm Brian Windell.

这里是《First to 15》节目，欢迎你，埃里克。

This is First to 15, and welcome, Eric.

谢谢。

Thank you.

我需要你在我去的每个场合都这样介绍我。

I need you to introduce me everywhere I go.

听起来太棒了。

That sounded amazing.

很高兴你能加入我们，并且是你提议录制这期节目的，埃里克。

Well, I'm really glad that you're joining us and you suggested this episode, Eric.

对于那些没参加过我们大学对话论坛的人来说，这其实是你之前在我们一些锦标赛上就谈论过的话题。

It's something that you've actually spoken about before at some of our tournaments for those who haven't been to one of our college conversations panels.

这些是绝不可错过的讨论机会。

Those are some can't miss opportunities to have these same types of discussions.

如果你在听这期节目时想到有问题想问，那正是提问的好时机。

And if you're listening to an episode and think I have a question that I would love to ask, that's a great place to do that.

但今天，我们不仅要讨论你分享的内容，还会涉及更多方面。

But today, we're gonna cover a lot of what you've shared in that, but also a lot more.

那么让我们从宏观视角开始。

So let's start with the big picture.

并非每个学生都想要或有机会加入NCAA项目。

Not every student wants or has access to an NCAA program.

你能谈谈如果就读的学校没有NCAA击剑队，有哪些途径可以继续参与击剑运动吗？

So can you talk about what paths exist to keep on fencing once you do get into college if you're not at a school with an NCAA team?

当然可以。

Yeah, absolutely.

在密尔沃基地区，除了大学击剑领域外，周边还有其他俱乐部，而我们马凯特大学自身也有相关资源。

And being in Milwaukee, there are other clubs around that are side of the college space, outside of the collegiate fencing area, but we also have ourselves over at Marquette.

我们还有密尔沃基工程学院，这是一个刚刚起步的小规模项目。

We also have Milwaukee School of Engineering, which is a much smaller program that's starting up right now.

所以我们有很多选择，我觉得尤其是大城市会有这些选项。

So we have lots of options and I feel especially large cities are going to have those.

一旦你到了大学城，可能只有一个选择，那就是当地的大学俱乐部。

Once you get out into maybe a college town, it might just be that you have one option and it's that local college club that you have.

每个俱乐部都略有不同。

And every single club is a little bit different.

非NCAA项目的一大优势是你们有更多自主领导的机会和真正的自由，但同时也会缺乏NCAA队伍享有的许多资源，比如资金和专业组织提供的结构支持。

One of the great things about being outside the NCAA is that you have a lot more opportunity to lead yourselves and really have that freedom, but at the same time, you are very lacking in a lot of the things that NCAA teams benefit from, like funding and kind of that structure that you might expect to come from a more professional organization.

确实。

Yeah.

这真是把双刃剑，因为我们在这个播客里讨论过招生规则和训练时长限制。

It really is a double edged sword because we've talked on this podcast about recruiting rules and the number of hours that you can practice.

显然这些规定都不适用于大学俱乐部。

Obviously, none of that applies to collegiate clubs.

但就像你说的，你们也拿不到那么多资金。

But also, like you said, you're also not going to get quite the amount of funding.

以马凯特大学为例，马凯特俱乐部球队的资金来源是怎样的？

So taking Marquette as an example, how is the Marquette club team funded?

因为光是让大家坐面包车去几小时车程外的比赛就要花钱。

Because it costs money to even just get everybody in a van and drive to a tournament a few hours away.

确实如此。

It is.

是的。

Yeah.

从装备采购到参赛，几乎每个环节都很烧钱。

It is expensive to run pretty much every step of the process, whether it's getting gear, going to a tournament.

所以不同俱乐部可以用不同方式解决这个问题。

So different clubs can approach us in different ways.

我们目前的解决方案是，最近开始为当地高中联赛做裁判工作。

What we do is, right now, we just recently started refereeing for some of the high school tournaments in the area.

这为俱乐部提供了额外的收入来源。

That provides us with an extra income flow as a club.

当然还有会费，这是全国所有俱乐部最常见的方式，即设定一个预期能覆盖部分成本的金额，然后在此基础上运作。

And then there's also, of course, club dues, which are the most common way across every club in the country, which is you set a number that you expect to cover a certain amount of cost, and then you can run it from there.

我们在某些方面很幸运，因为对于特定开支，大学会为学生报销部分费用。

We're lucky in some ways that for specific expenses, the university will reimburse the students for certain expenses.

可能是油费，也可能是住宿费，但涉及到实际支出时，我们必须先垫付资金。

It might be gas, it might be housing, but when it comes to the actual expenses themselves, we have to have the money upfront first.

嗯。

Yeah.

这很合理。

That makes sense.

那如果某所大学没有任何击剑俱乐部呢？

So what if there's a university that doesn't have a fencing club of any kind?

或者曾经有过但现在已经停办，你在历史年鉴上看到他们这里曾经有过击剑俱乐部。

Or maybe there used to be one and it's gone dormant that you see in the history books and the yearbooks that, oh, they used to have a fencing club here.

如果他们能重建击剑俱乐部就太棒了。

That would be really cool if they had it again.

那么，学生在这种情况下能做什么呢？

Like, what can a student even do in that situation?

是的，大多数大学都会为新社团预留一定预算。

Yeah, so most universities will have some form of a budget set aside for new clubs.

只要达到最低报名人数，你就可以提交请愿书，比如列出40名表示有兴趣加入击剑社的学生名单。

As long as you have the right amount of sign up, you can go and basically make a petition to say here are the 40 people who said they might consider joining a fencing club.

其中可能有10人会真正参与，这10名活跃成员能向学校证明这个社团的价值。

And of them I think 10 will really show up, and that's 10 students that will be active in the club and really show to the university that they're getting something out of this.

如果你能说明装备存放方案、预估器材成本，学校可能会拨款支持项目启动。

And if you say, we have ideas for this is where we'll store our gear, we know about how much the gear will cost, they might start to infuse some money into that program so that you can really get things running.

如果学校本身存有旧器材——可能是已解散社团遗留的——这既是优势也是隐患，因为部分装备可能已不符合当今击剑运动的安全标准。

If you're at a school that has gear originally, maybe it's an old club that died out and they just have it locked away in some closet, that can be a real blessing and a little bit of a curse sometimes where now you have all this gear and some might not be usable anymore or it might not be up to the standard of safety that we would expect in today's fencing.

这种情况下，你必须说服学校：仅靠这些陈旧装备不足以重启社团。

And in those situations, you have to then convince the school, no, this isn't enough to just restart our club.

我们还需要一些额外的支持。

We need a little bit extra.

通常学校在这方面表现得相当通情达理，当然这取决于具体的管理部门。

And usually schools seem pretty reasonable about that, but of course that will depend on the administration.

那我们退一步说，你提到要去学生事务处或你们学校所谓的校园活动部门，然后你说你有40个人。

So let's back up one step because you said you're going to the student affairs or whatever campus activities group is called at your school, and you say, I've got 40 people.

但如果你是个大一新生，要怎么找到这40个人呢？

But if you're an incoming freshman, how do you find those 40 people?

这个过程是怎样的？

What's that process like?

没错，是时候结交些朋友了。

Yeah, it's time to make some friends.

好的。

Okay.

因为这通常需要学生的积极参与。

Because usually that requires student buy in.

可能是在校园里找到另一个击剑爱好者。

It might be that find another fencer on campus.

也可能就是在宿舍楼里四处打听。

It might just be that you run around your dorm building asking around.

我算是比较幸运，没有遇到这个问题。

I was pretty lucky in the sense that I didn't have that problem.

我来的时候已经有个三人的小俱乐部了。

There was an existing club of about three people when I showed up.

所以接下来就是考虑如何发展，如何确保装备现代化且不会太老旧或不安全。

And so then it was about how do we grow, how do we make sure that the equipment is modern and not really old or unsafe.

有些学校还会允许你在特定地方张贴传单，在学生会设立摊位，所以即使俱乐部还不存在，也有其他方式来评估兴趣，我想，或许还能制造些声势。

And then some schools will also let you put up flyers at certain places, set up and tables at the student so there's other ways to get, even if the club doesn't exist yet, other ways to gauge interest, I guess, and build that buzz maybe.

没错。

Exactly.

某种程度上这很像整个俱乐部体育界的情况，尤其根据我击剑的经验，它能让你在很多方面为现实世界做好准备，因为现在你需要推销成立俱乐部的想法。

It's almost in a way like the club sports world in general, but especially from my experience with fencing, it gets you ready for the real world in a lot of ways where it's now you have to market the idea of having a club.

你必须学会如何撰写一封有说服力的邮件来打动他人。

You have to know how to send a good email that is convincing to people.

你需要掌握这些生活技能，我认为许多学生都能从中受益匪浅。

You have to have all those life skills that I think a lot of students can really benefit from.

因此，在这种自由度和挑战中，甚至在你可能面临的资金缺口里，也蕴含着让你为现实世界做准备的宝贵学习经验。

So within that freedom and within that challenge that you get or even funding gaps that you might have, there's also this great learning experience that gets you ready for the real world.

是的。

Yeah.

我很喜欢这一点。

I love that.

如果你是一名经验丰富的击剑手，习惯了某种程度的专业指导，也许你的俱乐部拥有非常棒的设施，那么转入大学俱乐部项目会是怎样的体验？比如训练频率、你可能期待的指导水平？

If you're an experienced fencer and you're used to a level of coaching, maybe your club has some really great facilities to it, what's the experience going to be like transitioning to a collegiate club program, like practice frequency, the level of coaching you might expect?

我们稍后会讨论竞赛环境，所以先把这个问题放一放。

And we're going to talk about the competitive landscape in a second, so let's table that.

但就像实际成为该项目成员的体验。

But just like the experience actually being a member of that program.

当然。

Sure.

所以这次我会稍微从教练的角度来谈谈这个问题，嗯。

So I'll approach it a little bit from the coach's perspective on this one where Mhmm.

我有几名运动员加入。

I have a couple of athletes who have come in.

其中一位在大一那年，在我们所属的联盟中排名第二。

One, in his freshman year, was like the second best in the conference that we belong in.

一开始，我们还有其他几位在同一个联盟中表现非常出色、大学前就是极具竞争力的击剑运动员。

Right out the gate, we've also had other athletes who are very well established in that same conference and very competitive fencers from before they made it to college.

当我们看到这种情况时，对俱乐部来说是件好事，因为这意味着不止你一个人有这样的水平。

When we see that come across, it's a great thing for the club because that means that there's more than one of you.

如果你是唯一的高水平选手，你可以预期自己会承担起领导角色。

If you're the only one, you can expect to very much be in a leadership role.

对吧？

Right?

无论是担任队长仅仅因为你不喜欢处理幕后的文书工作，还是意味着你必须真正带领俱乐部走向成功并对自己的行为负责。

Whether that's just being your team captain because you don't like doing all the paperwork for behind the scenes stuff or whether that means, no, you really have to drag this club to success and really take ownership for what you're doing.

我们都通过一定程度的投入在击剑道路上达到了某个阶段。

We all make it to a certain point in fencing through a level of commitment that we have.

上大学的美妙之处在于你可以尝试：我是否真的想要那种程度的投入？

And the great part about going to college is you get to test out, do I really want that level of commitment?

所以一般来说，大一学年我不会给那些可能有丰富经验的新运动员施加太大压力。

So freshman year, generally speaking, I try not to put too much pressure on new athletes who maybe have that past experience.

但当我们真正向前推进时，或者开始新武器项目时——比如我们最近刚成立的女子花剑队，之前只有一名女花剑运动员。

But once we're really pushing forward or if we're starting a new weapon or a new program, like we're recently starting up our women's foil team before we just had one women's foil athlete.

现在她们开始在这个项目中展现出更多领导力，尝试吸引朋友加入，寻找那些可能还不知道我们校园俱乐部存在的有经验的花剑选手。

Now, they're starting to show a little bit more leadership in that activity to try and bring in friends, try to bring in other experienced FOILists who maybe haven't found out about our club existing on campus yet.

是的。

Yeah.

我们也应该说明，我们主要讨论的是现有成员以及那些想要加入或创办大学俱乐部的人。

We should say too, we're talking a lot about people who are current members and wanting to either join or start a collegiate club.

显然，对于临时加入者来说，这也是一个绝佳的环境。

Obviously, it's also a great environment for walk ons as well.

尽管我们大多数听众已经对击剑运动非常热衷，热爱击剑。

And although the majority of our listeners are already bought in, they're into fencing, they love fencing.

你是否有过这样的经历：有人听说马凯特大学击剑队后表示想尝试，现在他们已经开始参加比赛了？

Have you had experience with someone who they heard about the fencing team at Marquette and were like, I want to try that, and now they're going to competitions?

是的。

Yeah.

那正是我指导的大部分运动员的情况。

That is a vast majority of the athletes that I coach.

哦，太好了。

Oh, great.

我们拥有的一个优势是，大学俱乐部击剑的技能水平跨度很大。

One of the great things that we have is it's a skill level that has a big range in collegiate club fencing.

有些选手本可以轻松进入NCAA联赛，达到更高竞技水平，但他们选择更专注于学业，或是认为这所学校在其他方面更适合自己的生活。

You have some that easily could have gone NCAA, easily could have gone for that higher level of competition, and instead decide, you know, I really wanna focus on academics, or this school is just a better fit for my life in all these other ways.

与此同时，我们也有很多学生就像你说的那样出现，他们只是觉得，嘿，这很酷。

And then at the same time, we have lots of students who show up just like you were saying, they're just, hey, this is cool.

我以前没怎么做过运动，或者可能我只是不想在大学里跑田径，或者无论他们之前做什么活动，他们说，让我试试这个其他活动，或者我有朋友推荐过。

I haven't really done a sport before, or maybe I just don't want to run track in college, or whatever their activity might be, and they say, let me try out this other activity, or maybe I have a friend who recommended it.

他们来了，我们从第一天就开始，对吧？

And they show up, and we start out from day one, right?

这是你前进的方式，这是你后退的方式。

Here's how you advance, here's how you retreat.

这是一个简单的突刺。

This is a simple lunge.

让我们进入防守姿势，以及我们在剑道上实际如何表现自己。

Let's get into the parry positions and how we actually conduct ourselves when we're on the strip.

我们有些运动员在大学结束时能达到D级或C级水平，取决于他们的投入程度，然后他们开始真正投入这项运动并认真对待。

And we have some athletes that end up D or C rated by the end of their time in college, depending on what that commitment level is like, then they start really getting into the sport and taking it seriously.

这对你作为教练来说一定也非常有成就感，看到有人进来时甚至分不清三种武器，现在他们走出去为大学比赛。

That's gotta be very rewarding for you as a coach as well, like seeing someone who maybe couldn't even tell the difference between the three weapons coming in, and now they're going out there and competing for the university.

那么埃里克，父母在这里的角色是什么？

So the parents' role here, Eric.

父母该如何帮助学生找到合适的途径，并以正确的方式推动他们通过俱乐部路径在大学继续击剑？

Like, how can parents help their student find the right fit and push them in the right ways toward continuing fencing in college through the club path?

是的，我认为作为教练，家长的参与是非常有益的。

Yeah, I think parent involvement is great to have as a coach.

我们有些家长在比赛时会主动为学生取午餐，诸如此类的支持。

We have some parents who will offer to go and pick up lunches for the students when we're at a tournament and that sort of thing.

所以在初期阶段，当家长在思考‘我的孩子该加入哪个俱乐部’、‘他们应该达到什么水平’、‘这所学校是否适合他们’时，如果他们将击剑置于其他活动之上，我们该如何制定一份包含俱乐部体系中击剑项目的学校名单？

So in that early phase of trying to figure out what club should my student be going to, what level should they be fencing at, is this school right for them, if they're really valuing fencing above other things, how do we make a list of schools that includes fencing as a program in the club scene?

我认为一个很好的组织方法是：首先访问美国击剑协会官网查看大学击剑俱乐部，同时查看这些俱乐部是否有Instagram页面——比如马凯特大学最近刚加入了与美国击剑协会关联的美国大学击剑俱乐部联盟。

I think that's a great way to get organized is to A, go to the USA Fencing website and look at the collegiate fencing clubs, but also check out if there are Instagram pages that have each of those fencing clubs there because, like, Marquette University just recently joined the US Association of Collegiate Fencing Clubs, which is associated with USA Fencing.

在此之前，我们实际上只在Instagram上有网络存在，处于一种模糊状态：我们参加比赛，具有竞技性，但不属于任何击剑管理机构。

Before then, we were really only an Instagram page on our internet presence, and we were kind of floating around in this limbo state where we were competitive, we were going to competitions, but not really belonging to any governing body of fencing.

这在俱乐部运动中很常见。

You'll find a lot of that in club sports.

所以，当你在考察一所大学时，去看看他们的Instagram页面，了解俱乐部的活跃程度。

So, when you're looking at a college, check out their Instagram page to see how active the club is.

大学也应该公布他们有哪些俱乐部，但有时他们会说有击剑俱乐部，结果就像我发现的那样，只有三个人而且都是大四学生。

The university should also be posting what clubs they have, but sometimes they'll post they have a fencing club and like I found out, it was three people and they were all seniors.

现在就得靠新生去搞清楚接下来该怎么办了。

So now it's on the freshmen to go and figure out what can happen.

如果我事先查看了他们的线上动态，可能就会发现这是个规模较小的俱乐部，而我是否接受这一点可能会影响最终决定。

Had I checked their online presence, I might have found that it's a smaller club, and if I'm okay with that or not okay with that, it could affect a decision being made.

是的，这建议很棒。

Yeah, that's great.

这正好引出了我接下来想问的关于学校对比的问题。

And that does get me into the next question I was gonna ask about comparing schools.

好的，Instagram页面这个主意很好，如果他们38周都没更新，可能说明他们不太活跃，或者只是这学期没有负责社交媒体的人。

Okay, so the Instagram page, that's a great idea because if they haven't posted in thirty eight weeks, then maybe they're not super active or maybe that just means that they don't have a social media person this semester.

正是如此。

So Exactly.

你还能通过哪些方式来评估大学击剑俱乐部的质量？

Are there other ways that you can assess the quality of a collegiate fencing club?

我并不是指队伍里的击剑手水平有多高，而是指他们的活跃程度，以及如果学生想把击剑作为大学生活的一部分，能获得多少支持。

And I don't necessarily mean, like, how good the fencers on the team are, but just how active they are and how supported a fencer is gonna be if they wanna make that part of their college experience.

当然可以。

Sure.

其实有些方法就是直接联系这些项目，对吧？

In some ways, you can actually just get in touch with those programs, right?

如果你看到他们有Instagram账号，但照片里人不多，你可以直接私信他们。

If you see that they have an Instagram, but maybe there aren't a lot of people in the pictures, you can just DM them.

在我们这个级别是非常非正式的流程，因为我们没有招生规则。

It's a very informal process at our level because we don't have recruiting rules.

所以我可能应该更早说清楚，我并不是学校正式员工，我是作为俱乐部教练工作的。

So I should maybe even make it clearer earlier, I don't officially work for the school, I work for the club as a coach.

所以我们联系学生时，基本上就是，嘿，我不能招募你。

So when we reach out to students, it's very much just, hey, I can't recruit you.

我不能给你任何资金支持。

I can't give you any money.

但如果你有任何问题或需要推荐到其他俱乐部，我在那方面有很多人脉。

But if you have any questions or if you need a referral to another club, I have a lot of connections in that way.

比如普渡大学的教练就联系过我，他是个很棒的人，他说有位对马凯特大学感兴趣的运动员，你愿意和她聊聊吗？

So, I've had the coach from Purdue, he's a wonderful guy, he reached out to me and said, hey, have an athlete interested in Marquette, would you mind meeting her?

同样的情况也发生过，我向密歇根州立大学推荐过人选。

Same thing has happened with me referencing someone to maybe Michigan State.

对吧？

Right?

这就在各项目之间建立了对话渠道，联系上一个就可能联系上很多。

And this creates a dialogue between programs where if you get in touch with one, you might be able to get in touch with many.

如果你联系学校行政部门，他们至少能帮你找到俱乐部的主席或负责人。

And if you reach out to the school administration, they'll probably at least be able to put you in touch with whoever's the president or leader of that club.

如果他们回复了，那是个好迹象，说明他们在积极招募和物色人选。

And if they respond, that's a great sign that they're actively recruiting and and looking.

对吧？

Right?

他们不回复你，你甚至会被退回。

They don't respond You even bounce back.

如果他们不回复，还有这些俱乐部是由学生正式运营的问题，可能只是他们不太擅长查看邮件，也许你需要跟进一下。

If they don't respond, there's also the question of these clubs are officially run by the students, so it might just be that they're not very good at checking their email, and maybe you need to do a follow-up.

这个观点很棒。

That's a great point.

并不一定意味着大门完全关闭。

It doesn't necessarily mean that the doors are totally closed.

好的。

Okay.

太棒了。

That's awesome.

那么现在让我们以马凯特大学作为案例研究继续。

So now let's move on to of Marquette as a case study.

那么在马凯特大学是如何进行教练工作的？

And so how is coaching done at Marquette?

这与您加入项目之前的教练方式可能有什么不同？

And how might that differ from coaching prior to your joining the program?

所以我想问，您在那里对学生采用什么样的教练理念？

So like, I guess, what is your coaching philosophy with your students there?

是的。

Yeah.

这在大学之间差异很大，但根据我的经验，这取决于我拥有多少空闲时间。

It changes very much from university to university, but from my experience, it's based on how much free time I have.

对吧？

Right?

我在击剑之外还有正式工作，之所以帮忙纯粹是因为我是住在附近的热心校友。

I work a real job outside of fencing and really just help out because I'm a passionate alumni nearby.

但当谈到如何接触学生以及如何进行实际教练时，首要事项之一就是了解他们入学时的经验水平。

But when it comes to how to approach the students and how to really lead that coaching, one of the first things is understanding what's their experience level coming in.

如果他们没有经验，我们会立即从所有基础动作开始教学。

If they have no experience, we're starting with all of the basics right away.

如果他们已有经验，可能会早期就与一些更高级的学生一起训练，或者协助教授部分课程内容。

If they have experience already, maybe they'll be doing drills with some of the students who are more advanced early on, or maybe they'll be helping to teach some of those lessons.

我每周大约参加两次训练。

I show up to practice about twice a week.

这比我以前的参与频率高多了。

That's much more than I used to do.

过去我大概每两周才来一次。

I used to be about every other week.

具体安排是：我会主持一场以基础训练为主的集体课，然后在同一天为有兴趣的学生提供私教课。

What happens is I'll lead one session where I'm just teaching basically drills, walking people through in a class environment, and then in one day, I will also be doing private lessons for the students who are interested in that.

可能是他们想要挑战更高水平。

Maybe they're looking to push themselves to a higher degree.

也有些学生更注重社交体验，对他们来说，我会以积极的态度教授基础，之后让他们自由活动，因为他们不一定想参加比赛。

We also then have students who are maybe looking more for a social experience, and for them, I'm just going to be a positive face who kind of teaches the basics and lets them do whatever they want outside of that because they're not looking to go to competitions necessarily.

所以，你合作的对象确实涵盖了各种不同背景的人，需要针对每个人采取不同的方法。

So, it really is a diverse range of people that you're working with and ways to approach each one.

对于经验更丰富的运动员，我可能需要提升训练强度。

Maybe I'll need to step it up with an athlete who has a much higher level of experience.

有些人可能比我的击剑水平更高，特别是我自己不擅长的某些项目。那么问题来了：我该如何既挑战这位有经验的击剑手，又能让这位新手获得收获并有机会从基础开始成长？

Some of them, I think, are probably better than me at fencing, and especially certain events that I don't do as So it's like, how do I challenge this fencer who has experience while also giving this other fencer who's brand new something that's rewarding and an opportunity to build from the ground up.

是啊。

Yeah.

我觉得这真的很有意思。

I think that's really interesting.

这种大学击剑俱乐部或任何击剑术俱乐部的延续性是一个巨大的挑战。

The continuity of a collegiate fencing club or any college club, sports or not, is a Kyson challenge.

就像你注意到的，当一位基本上独自运营整个俱乐部的高年级学生离开时，俱乐部面临解散的风险。

Because like you noticed, when a senior who is basically running the entire club himself or herself leaves, the club is at risk of collapsing.

那么，如何才能让俱乐部年复一年地保持健康发展呢？

So how can you keep a club healthy from year to year?

你说你加入了俱乐部，我投入了心血，希望在我离开后，在我从马凯特大学或其他地方毕业后，它还能继续存在。

You've joined club, you say, I'm invested in this, and I want it to be here after I'm gone, after I graduate from Marquette or wherever I'm going.

学生们能做些什么来实现这一点？

What can students do to do that?

还有，埃里克，你做了哪些事来保持马凯特俱乐部的强劲发展？

And then also, what do you do, Eric, to keep Marquette going strong?

是的，我认为有三点最为关键。

Yeah, so there are three things that I think are most significant.

首先是俱乐部作为团体的社交环境是否积极且包容。

And the first is how positive and welcoming is your social environment as a club.

你们首先是俱乐部，其次才是队伍，所以你们是俱乐部运动队，对吧？

You're a club before you are a team, so you're a club sports team, right?

这是一群成年学生自愿选择花时间共同进行一项需要团队协作的活动。

So, it's a bunch of students who are choosing as adults to spend their time together doing an activity that requires them to function as a group.

如果成员之间开始互相刻薄相待或不尊重——不必人人都成为挚友——但如果连团队基本所需的和谐相处都做不到，这就是成员流失的首要原因，甚至在有人毕业前就会立即发生。

If people start getting really mean to each other or disrespectful or not everyone has to be best friends, but if you aren't able to get along in the sense that a team requires, that is the first way that you start losing members, like immediately before people are graduating.

吸引更多人加入的一个重要方式是保持积极态度，但第二步同样关键——要有竞争力。

One of the big ways to attract more people is to be very positive, but then also the second step, which is to be competitive.

如果你们的项目取得了成功的结果，比如可以说，看，这个人第一天还一无所知，最后却带着奖牌回来了。

If your program is showing results that are successful, maybe you can say, hey, this is someone who on day one knew nothing and he came home with a medal.

其他刚接触这项运动的男生或女生看到后就会想，也许我应该坚持下去继续努力。

Other guys who are brand new or other girls who are brand new to the sport will see that and say, maybe I should stick with this and keep trying.

没错，我会看到四年后可能取得的成功。

Right, I'll see that there's success maybe four years down the line.

所以在这两点和领导潜力之间，存在着一些重大机遇。

So between that and the leadership potential, some big opportunities there.

最后一点是每个人都会毕业。

The last one is everyone graduates.

因此在某个时间点，需要有人来填补这个断层。

So at some point, there needs to be a person that bridges that gap.

这是三点中最不重要的，但我认为拥有教练确实对项目大有裨益——就像你说的，如果毕业季失去那些学长，可能面临一两周招新空窗期，那么所有积累的社团知识和技能都会流失。

This is the least essential of the three, but I think having a coach really benefits the program because, like you were saying, if you lose those seniors and maybe you have a week recruiting year or maybe two week recruiting years, now all of that club knowledge and all of that skill that's been built up is gone.

因此这完全依赖于那些彼此不太熟悉的年轻学生在社交上的相处情况。

And so it's purely reliant on how well the younger students who don't know each other as well get along socially.

所以通过聘请教练来缓和关系、保持一致性，并为俱乐部创造更多机会，你们就具备了发展潜力。

So by having a coach there to smooth things over and keep things consistent and also deliver more opportunities to the club, you have that growth potential.

但如果没有教练，也不至于让整个项目彻底垮掉。

But if you don't have a coach, it's not something that's going to sink the entire program.

我知道有几个比马凯特规模更大、历史更悠久的项目，在几乎没有教练的情况下也运作得很好。

I know of several programs that are much larger and more storied than Marquette that have absolutely functioned with minimal or no coaching.

嗯。

Yeah.

我们刚才稍微谈到了俱乐部的成长。

So we've talked a little bit about the club's growth.

我认为即使一个大学击剑俱乐部从不与外界比赛，也能办得很成功。

And I think you could have a successful collegiate fencing club that never fences anybody other than the people in the club.

对吧？

Right?

但最终，俱乐部会想要融入更广阔的击剑世界。

But eventually, a club is going to want to join the broader fencing world.

那么，马凯特大学是如何发现这个更广阔的击剑世界的？这段经历又是怎样的？

So, like, how did Marquette figure out that there was this broader fencing world out there, and what has that experience been like?

很高兴你问到这个问题。

I'm glad you asked this one.

这是个相当独特的情况。

It's a pretty unique situation.

所以，我大一加入这个项目时，除了在一个只内部对练的俱乐部外没有任何经验。追溯到我八岁时，每周只去一次，没有电子计分设备，只有一位教练，我们完全听从指令，因为当时对击剑世界一无所知。后来我来到马凯特大学，发现这个项目实际上是古典击剑，非常接近欧洲历史武术风格的击剑方向。

So, I joined the program as a freshman with no past experience outside of a club that only fenced itself, and going back to when I was eight years old, I would show up once a week, there was no electric scoring, there was one coach who just, we did what we were told because we didn't know any different in the fencing world, and then I showed up to Marquette and once again, it was a program that was, it was actually classical fencing, which is very much like the historic European martial arts kind of direction of fencing.

所以当然，那里没有电子计分，没有管理机构，没有重大投入或领导力，除了一位知识渊博且技术精湛的教练外，基本没有其他资源，而且这位教练的教学方向也未必面向更广阔的击剑世界。

So, of course, there was no electric scoring, there was no governing body, there was no significant investment or leadership, or really any of that going on outside of one coach who very knowledgeable and very skilled, but not necessarily pointing outward toward the rest of the fencing world.

有一天，我对用肉眼观察和感觉来判断得分的做法感到沮丧，于是查看了附近的俱乐部，发现了密尔沃基附近的Caliburn击剑俱乐部和Audubon击剑俱乐部，去体验了一下，第一次接触电子设备，然后开始了解到：哦，原来还有美国击剑协会这回事。

One day, I got frustrated with how scoring was being done using eyeballs and whether you felt something, so I checked out what clubs were around and I saw Caliburn Fencing Club and Audubon Fencing Club, which are near the Milwaukee area, and checked them out, got wired up for the first time, and then started finding out, okay, there's this thing, USA Fencing.

我是个超级播客迷。

And I'm a big podcast guy.

于是我发现了这个节目并开始收听，那是我第一次听说劳伦斯大学的埃里克·蒙伯格，也是我收听的第一个播客。

So I found out about this show and started listening, and that was when I heard about Eric Maunberg over at Lawrence University, and it was my first podcast that I listened to.

我直接点开最新一期节目

I just clicked, okay, what's the most recent one?

果然听到他在解释'枢纽'理念——一所大学可以支持另一所大学，从而帮助建立更多项目

And sure enough, it's him explaining the idea of a hub where one college can support another college and then that helps to build more programs.

然后我查了查

And I look up

对，对

Yeah, yeah.

劳伦斯大学在哪里？

Where is Lawrence University?

这个埃里克·蒙伯格是谁？

Who is this guy, Eric Maumburg?

果然他就在威斯康星州

And sure enough, he's in Wisconsin.

多亏了这个节目，我得以首次联系到真正与美国大学相关的击剑项目。

And so I reached out, and thanks to this show, kind of made my first connection to actual USA fencing programs that were related to colleges.

自那以后，投入非常巨大，能推动这一切发展真是令人难以置信。

And since then, the investment has been huge, and it's been incredible to get that going.

我说的巨大投入，主要是指时间方面。

When I say huge in terms of investment, I mean like of time.

我们在资金方面还不算很充裕，但

We're still not really huge on money, but

这已经是惊人的进步了。

it's been an incredible steps.

成长

Growth

是啊。

Yeah.

没错。

Yeah.

我们最初只练重剑，因为它最便宜，不需要太多装备，而且附近有些俱乐部就有重剑项目。现在我们已经有了花剑，还与威斯康星大学白水分校建立了合作关系，他们提供佩剑项目，所以我们共同组建了一支队伍。

We started with only Epee because it was the cheapest one, we didn't need to get as much gear, and because some of the clubs nearby had it, and then, you know, now we have Foil, we've made a partnership with UW Whitewater and they have Sabre, so we field one team together.

是的，进展确实很大。

And yeah, it's been a lot of progress.

那么当你们想出去和其他学校击剑队比赛时，有哪些竞技机会呢？

So what are the competitive opportunities when you wanna go out and fence another school?

具体是什么样子的？

Like, what does that look like?

我想大多数听众都了解美国击剑协会的Knacks赛事和地区锦标赛。

I think most of our listeners have an understanding of the Knacks and the regional tournaments within USA fencing.

而且可能也有不少人知道NCAA击剑比赛的结构，包括常规赛、分区锦标赛、地区赛，最终是NCAA锦标赛。

And also, would imagine several have an understanding of how NCAA fencing is structured around meets and then conference championships, regionals, ultimately the NCAA championships.

在大学俱乐部击剑领域，是否有类似的赛事可以让你成为大学俱乐部击剑界的冠军？

Is there an equivalent within collegiate club fencing where you could become the champion of the collegiate club scene?

当然有。

There definitely is.

是的，我们有些运动员既参加其他领域的比赛，也参与我们的活动。

So, yeah, we have athletes who compete in those other areas as well as our own.

但我们主要采用锦标赛的形式运作。

But we function very much tournament style.

通常与美国大学击剑锦标赛的赛制相同。

It's the same format usually as USA NCAA fencing tournament.

就像圣母大学、哈佛大学等世界名校采用的团队赛制，与我们的大同小异。

So the same way that, you know, your Notre Dame's, your Harford's of the world are doing their formats is a similar team format to what we have.

不过我们的组织架构要分散得多。

We are much less centralized though.

即使是同地区的队伍，也不一定属于同一联盟，甚至可能不知道某些联盟的存在，整体结构大致呈金字塔形。

So not every team that's even in your section of the country might be in the same conference or they might not know that that conference exists, but the way that it kind of looks is almost a pyramid.

最顶端是美国大学击剑俱乐部协会。

There's the US Association of Collegiate Fencing Clubs at the very top.

这些通常都是组织最完善的俱乐部。

Those are usually going to be the most organized clubs.

他们通过多年在全国各地参赛来竞争，对吧？

They compete by going across the country on many years, right?

所以一场比赛可能在弗吉尼亚海滩举行，来自加州、德州和中西部的一堆队伍最终都会聚集在那里。

So a tournament might be in Virginia Beach and a bunch of teams from, I don't know, California, Texas, the Midwest might end up there.

年复一年，仅此一场。

That tournament only happens once a year.

为了保持其他比赛的持续进行，还有更多的地区巡回赛。

So to get all of the rest of the competition going, there are more regional circuits.

所以，我们有中西部击剑联盟，这是我们每年真正努力争取夺冠的赛事。

So, we have the Midwest Fencing Conference, which is what we really compete hard to win every year.

参赛学校通常与你们学校更为相似。

It's going to be schools that are more similar to your own.

对我们来说，其中很多是十大联盟的学校，但也会有一些像我们这样的学校或奥古斯塔纳学院，这些学校本身并不属于大型体育联盟。

For us, a lot of them are Big Ten, but then we'll also end up with schools like ourselves or Augustana, where it's a school that's outside of, you know, a major conference in itself.

再往下，还有所有那些互相联系的俱乐部，他们会问：嘿，你们今年有足够的人手来组织一次聚会吗？

Then, even below that, you have all the clubs that are just reaching out to each other and saying, hey, do you have enough people this year to do a meetup?

你知道，我们主办个比赛吧，好的。

You know, let's host a tournament, okay.

然后他们在自己学校预留些时间，可能有两所学校参加，大家玩得很开心，这很棒。

You know, and then they reserve some time at their and maybe two schools show up and they have a great time, which is awesome.

当然，目标是要把他们提升到可能参加地区性联赛的下一级别，然后或许能参与更全国性的赛事。

And the goal, obviously, is to pull them up into that next level of maybe a regional conference and then maybe participate at more of a national level.

这太酷了。

That's super cool.

那么如果我理解正确的话，你们的项目最初只专注于重剑项目，这虽然在NCAA级别不常见，但在俱乐部层面——美国击剑俱乐部级别却很普遍，很多项目都专精于可能仅一两项武器。

So if I'm hearing you right, your program started out as Epee only, which is, again, not something you'd see at the NCAA level, but you would see at the club level, the USA fencing club level, with a lot of programs who specialize in just maybe one or two weapons.

所以我的问题是，这未必就一定是种限制吧。

So I guess my question is, that doesn't necessarily have to be a limitation then.

如果你们有五个人都想参加重剑比赛，并不需要组建花剑和佩剑队伍也能参加你提到的某些锦标赛，是这样吗？

If you have five people who all want to fence at bay, you're not required to field a foil and saber team to be able to compete at some of these tournaments that you're talking about.

我的理解对吗？

Am I understanding that right?

是的。

Yeah.

所以我们第一年实际参赛时只带了男子和女子重剑队，我们的做法就是放弃另外两项比赛，并表明我们会用现有资源做到最好。

So we would show up with men's and women's epi at our first year of actually competing, and what we would do is just forfeit the other two events and say, you know, we're gonna do the best that we can with what we have.

于是我们参加一个可能有五支队伍的锦标赛，虽然放弃了争夺总冠军的机会，但仍可以努力在自己参赛项目上做到最好。

And so we would show up to a tournament that maybe has five teams, and we're taking ourselves out of contention for an overall win, but we can still try to be the best at our event.

后来我们与UW-Whitewater合作后，开始同时参加重剑和佩剑比赛，随着队伍壮大并有了几位有经验的花剑选手，我们就尝试发展成能兼顾所有三个项目的队伍。

And then once we partnered with UW Whitewater, okay, now we're gonna compete in Epee and Sabre, and then now our team has grown enough and we have some experienced FOILists, so let's try to build so that we can actually do well in all three events.

但如果规模缩减，比如只有六名新人——三男三女，其中仅有一位有经验的花剑选手，那我们就会专攻花剑项目。

But if we were to shrink, I'm sure that we would just go with, okay, we have a bunch of new people, maybe it's six total people, three are guys, three are girls, and we have one experienced FOIList and that's it, then we're doing FOIL.

对吧？

Right?

这就是我们的组织方式。

And and that's just how we would have to organize.

嗯。

Yeah.

是啊。

Yeah.

所以你们必须随着情况变化保持灵活和机动性。

So you have to be flexible and and dynamic as everything changes.

我们刚才稍微讨论了一下比赛的事。

So we've talked a little bit about the competition.

你能帮我了解一下比赛的水平如何吗？

Can you help me get a sense of the level of competition?

假设一名高中击剑手习惯参加RYC比赛，甚至可能在JOs进入过32强，那么俱乐部击剑比赛的竞技水平会如何对标，以便他们为自己设定第一年的目标？

Let's say a high school fencer is used to competing at RYCs and has maybe even a top 32 at JOs, where will the competition level align in club fencing so that they can set goals for themselves for that first year?

比如说，我最近在Knack比赛中表现不错，进入了64强。

Say, I did this well at a Knack recently, top 64 at a Knack.

这样的水平在大学俱乐部赛事中大概处于什么位置？

Where's that going to put me in the collegiate club scene?

这会使他们处于顶尖行列。

It'll put them toward the top.

需要指出的是，总会存在与你水平相当的对手，对吧？

It's important to note that there are always going to be others like you, right?

竞争依然存在，但当你在大一赛季见识过后，可能会开始思考：好，我需要重点击败这四人中的某一个，以及今后出现在我们联盟的新生选手。

There's still going to be competition, but once you see it your freshman year, you might start saying, okay, I really need to focus on beating one of these four and whoever shows up that's a freshman in our conference after this.

特别是如果你加入的是美国大学击剑联盟（USA CFC）队伍，参加那些赛事时会遇到更广泛的学校和技能水平——因为这些学校对这项运动的投入度更高。

Especially if you're at a USA CFC team, you're probably going to get a much broader range of schools and much broader range of skill sets once you're at those tournaments because those are the more committed schools to the sport.

不过我们有些天赋不错的队员发现，在某些比赛中他们能轻松击败多数对手，而在另一些赛事中却会遭遇苦战。

But, we have a couple athletes who are pretty talented and what they found is certain tournaments, they'll breeze through most competition and then certain tournaments, they'll show up and they're really struggling to get through someone.

这时候比赛才真正变得有趣起来。

And that's when it starts to get fun.

就像把一群心怀不服的人聚在同一赛场，看看能碰撞出什么火花。

It's like, okay, now that we've gotten everyone with a chip on their shoulder in the same room, let's see what happens after that.

没错。

Right.

同样的情况也可能发生在经验较少的选手身上——当他们意识到：'我一直在对抗那些拥有高水平运动员的学校，现在遇到这个对手感觉游刃有余，因为通过积累经验，我已适应了比他们更高的竞技水平。'

And the same thing might happen for the less experienced people where they realize, you know, I've been going against all these schools that have those high level athletes, and now I'm against a school that I'm feeling really great competing against them because the competition level, I'm more used to a higher level than they are now by gaining that experience.

所以，范围很广，非常广。

So, a wide range, a very wide range.

那么，当面具摘下，奖杯或奖牌颁发后，大学击剑队的行程是怎样的？

So, once the mask comes off and the trophies or medals have been awarded, what's a college fencing trip like?

你们团队在城外，当天的比赛已经结束。

You got the team and you are out of town and the tournament's over for the day.

接下来会发生什么？

What happens then?

比如，团队通常会做些什么？

Like, what does the team usually get up to?

是的。

Yeah.

再次强调，这比NCAA有更多自由，但我已不是学生，所以通常不太了解具体情况。

So, again, there is more freedom than there would be in the NCAA, but I am no longer a student, so I'm not usually privy to what's going on too much.

不过好吧。

But Okay.

实际情况是这样的

What happens is we'll right.

如果比赛地点较近，我们会在比赛当天早上开车过去

So we'll drive in kind of morning of a tournament if it's close by.

否则，我们会从外地开车前往

Otherwise, we'll drive in from out of town.

我们很快就要去密歇根州立大学参加比赛

We have one coming up very soon at Michigan State University.

他们总是能举办很棒的赛事

They always host a great tournament.

所以我们打算提前一天开车过去

So we are going to drive over there the day before.

规矩就是，要保持健康，确保以有利于明天比赛的状态照顾好自己

And then the rule is, you know, stay healthy, make sure that you're taking care of yourselves in a way that benefits your competition tomorrow.

晚安

Good night.

我要去别的地方了。

I'm going somewhere else.

然后第二天早上，我们准时参加比赛，全力以赴地击剑，比赛结束后，我们会向主办方表示感谢，然后通常去一家能容纳大约20个20岁年轻人的自助餐厅或餐馆吃一顿丰盛的团队晚餐。

And then the next morning, we show up on time for the tournament, fence our hearts out, and then at the end of the tournament, we kind of, you know, thank the people who are hosting, and we go and get a big team dinner, usually at some kind of a buffet or, you know, restaurant that can handle, I don't know, 20 20 year olds.

所以之后我们得确保大家都能吃上饭，并且玩得开心，然后我们开车返回，通常回来得很晚。

So then we have to go and make sure that, you know, people are eating and and have a great time with that, and then we drive back, get back pretty late.

说实话，听起来像是个相当有趣的周末。

Sounds like a pretty fun weekend, honestly.

那么跟我聊聊大学击剑俱乐部成员在时间和金钱上的预期投入吧。

So talk to me about the time and money expectations for a college club fencer.

因为很多人不想在大学里只参加一项课外活动，他们还希望四年内毕业。

Because a lot of people don't wanna have just one extracurricular activity in college, and they also want to graduate in four years.

所以他们也需要专注于学业。

So they need to be focused on academics as well.

那我们就来谈谈这两件事。

So let's talk about those two things.

时间投入和财务投入方面，一个人可能会面临怎样的要求？

What is the time commitment and what's the financial commitment that someone might be looking at?

是的，一般来说，在时间投入方面，我们尽量为学生提供尽可能多的参与机会，他们有本地俱乐部可以训练，此外我们还有每周三次的常规训练。

Yeah, so generally speaking, when it comes to time commitments, we try to provide as many opportunities for those students to show up as possible, so we have local clubs that they can practice at, and in addition to that, we have our own practices that we go to three days a week.

所以我们每周进行三次两小时的训练，俱乐部活动共计六小时。

So we do two hour practices three days a week, six hours with the club.

有些真正热爱击剑的学生会全身心投入，他们会在周末或工作日主动去其他俱乐部训练。

Some students who really, really love the fencing side of things, they'll just commit to that, and they'll be driving themselves out to other clubs on the weekends or on other weekdays.

但这完全不是硬性要求。

That is not at all the expectation, though.

根据我的了解，大多数队伍只要求你在参加下一场比赛前的两周必须出席训练。

Generally, from what I've heard, most teams require you to show up for practices in the two weeks leading up to your next tournament that you're going to.

即便如此，如果你因为考试缺席一次也完全没关系。

And even then, if you miss one for an exam, don't worry about it.

我们有些队员每周只来一次。

We have people who show up once a week.

几乎每年都至少有一个只参加社交活动的人，他们不参加训练，只在训练快结束时出现，跟大家打个招呼，然后去某人的宿舍或公寓聚会，这也很棒。

Pretty much every year, there's at least one person who only shows up socially, meaning that they don't show up to practice, they show up right as as practice is ending, they say hello to everyone, and then they go and hang out at someone's dorm or apartment, which is great.

我很喜欢这样——虽然不会让他们参加比赛，但他们能在击剑俱乐部玩得开心，这就很好了。

Love that I'm for not gonna start them at a tournament, but, you know, they're having fun with the fencing club, and that's that's great.

所以在时间投入方面真的因人而异。

So it it really depends time commitment wise.

至于财务投入，我们尽量为运动员们保持最低成本。

When it comes to financial commitments, we try to keep things as cheap as possible for the athletes.

一般来说，如果要参赛，装备需要自备，但这是因为我们努力把会费压得很低。

Generally speaking, if you're going to be competing, you are responsible for your own gear, but that's because we try to keep the actual dues very low.

马凯特队最近作为正式俱乐部加入了美国击剑协会，会费略有上涨以便享受所有会员福利。

The Marquette team recently joined as an official club with USA Fencing, so the dues went up a little bit so we could pay to be a part of all those benefits.

但总体而言，我们可以通过俱乐部会员身份提供本地比赛的入门级会员资格，这大幅降低了运动员的整体开销。

But overall, we can provide an access level membership for local tournaments as a part of the club membership that we have, so that lowers the overall cost of being an athlete down pretty well.

至于差旅费用，我们会尽力争取学校报销，减少学生个人需要承担的金额。

And then, whatever travel is, we try to do our best to get reimbursements from the school and lower the amount of investment that we need from individual students.