特别节目：2026年世界杯决赛裁判斯拉夫科·温契奇

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你好。

Hello.

我是德莱克·劳埃德。

I'm Delek Lloyd.

曼城因被认定在九年期间违反英超财务规定的所有指控而提出上诉。

And with Manchester City appealing after they were found guilty of all charges relating to breaches of the Premier League's financial regulations across a nine year period.

在最新一期的《超越比分》节目中，我们探讨这个案件可能对比赛本身产生什么影响，以及它在史上最大的体育丑闻中能排到第几位。

On the latest episode of More Than The Score, we're asking what impact could the case have on the competition itself, and where does it rank amongst the biggest sporting scandals of all time?

现在收听。

Listen now.

无论你在哪里获取BBC播客，搜索《超越比分》即可。

Search for more than the score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

欢迎来到闹鬼图书馆。

Welcome to the haunted library.

你是来找故事的吗？

Have you come in search of a tale?

这个播客邀请你在书架间浏览，找到那些离开后仍会久久萦绕心头的故事。

This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place.

从哥特式杰作到廉价的惊悚小说，我是科林·摩根，每周两次新集，欢迎收听。

From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week.

无论你在哪里收听播客，都能找到《闹鬼图书馆》。

Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hello.

我是德利思·劳埃德。

I'm Delith Lloyd.

曼城因违反英超财务规定，在九年期间的所有指控都被判有罪，现在他们正在上诉。

And with Manchester City appealing after they were found guilty of all charges relating to breaches of the Premier League's financial regulations across a nine year period.

在最新一期的《超越比分》中，我们探讨这个案件可能对比赛本身产生什么影响，以及它在史上最大的体育丑闻中能排到什么位置。

On the latest episode of More Than Score, we're asking what impact could the case have on the competition itself, and where does it rank amongst the biggest sporting scandals of all time?

现在收听。

Listen now.

在您获取BBC播客的任何地方搜索“More Than the Score”。

Search for more than the score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

欢迎来到闹鬼图书馆。

Welcome to the haunted library.

您是来寻找故事的吗？

Have you come in search of a tale?

这个播客邀请您浏览书架，找到那些在您离开后仍会久久萦绕的故事。

This podcast invites you to browse the shelves and find stories that will linger long after you've left this place.

从哥特式杰作到廉价的惊悚小说，我是科林·摩根，每周两次新集数，加入我吧。

From gothic masterpieces to pulpy penny dreadfuls, join me, Colin Morgan, with new episodes twice a week.

在您获取播客的任何地方找到闹鬼图书馆。

Find the haunted library wherever you get your podcasts.

这是足球日报播客，由阿利斯泰尔·布鲁斯-鲍尔主持。

This is the football daily podcast with Alistair Bruce-Ball.

所以足球界里，可能没有哪个职位比裁判更受关注了。

So there probably isn't a single job in football scrutinized more than that of the referee.

他们的瞬间决定会被从各种角度分析、反复琢磨、仔细拆解。

They're split second decisions analyzed, poured over, and dissected from a myriad of different angles.

在顶级赛事中他们承受的压力以及如何应对，是一本名为《不可能的工作》的新书的核心主题。

The pressure they're under at the top level and how they deal with it is the central theme in a new book called The Impossible Job.

现在我们有请这本书的作者威廉·拉尔斯顿。

We are joined now by its author William Ralston.

非常感谢你来做客。

Thank you very much for joining us.

罗里·史密斯、克里斯·萨顿和查理·亚当也在场。

Rory Smith, Chris Sutton, and Charlie Adam are here too.

威廉，我的第一个问题是关于这本书的书名，你是先有了这个书名，然后去收集证据来证明它，因为你早就知道这是不可能的工作，还是你开始写作后才意识到，这确实是个不可能的工作？

My my first question on this, William, is the the title of the book, did you start with the title and then go and gather the evidence to prove it because you knew it, the impossible job, or did you start writing it and realize, this is an impossible job?

这就是这本书的书名。

That's the title of the book.

我们一开始就定了这个书名。

We had the title first.

没错。

It was Right.

我之前为《卫报》写过一篇长文，跟踪报道了两位英超裁判整个赛季的情况。

I wrote a long read about this for The Guardian where I followed two Premier League referees across the season.

那篇文章的标题就是这个，就是因为裁判的很多判罚都是主观的，所以你永远不可能让所有人都满意。

And that was the title of that that article, simply simply because it is the impossible job in the sense that, obviously, so many of the decisions that referees make are subjective, so you're never gonna please everyone.

所以我们就把这个标题从文章里拿来用在了书上，当然也把报道内容扩展了。

So we kind of took that from the the article and used it for the book and obviously expanded upon that reporting.

那你当时跟的是谁？在这个过程中，最让你印象深刻的是什么？

Who who did you follow then, and and and what were the what were the the most striking things for you from doing that?

就是，最大的收获是什么？

Sort of what were what were the what were the biggest takeaways?

为《卫报》写那篇报道时，我跟的是两位英超裁判，安德烈·马里纳和达伦·英格兰。

So for the for the Guardian story, it was two two referees, two Premier League referees, Andre Marinette and Darren England.

然后为了写这本书，我想看看精英级别的裁判，就是最顶尖的那些。

And then for the book, I wanted to look at the the elite elite refereeing, the the very, very top.

显然，斯拉夫科·文契奇，他稍后会加入我们，他执法了世界杯决赛。

Obviously, Slavko Vincic, who's joining us later, who did the World Cup final.

还有克莱芒·蒂尔潘，法国最顶尖的裁判。

But there was Clement Turpin, the top top French referee.

还有西蒙·马尔奇尼亚克，波兰最顶尖的裁判，他也执法了世界杯决赛。

There was Simone Martijnjak, the top Polish referee, who did the World Cup final.

最后还有来自英格兰的安东尼·泰勒，来自意大利的马可·圭达，以及来自西班牙的何塞·玛丽亚·桑切斯。

The last one, there was Anthony Taylor from England, Mark Aguida from Italy, and Jose Maria Sanchez from from Spain.

所以涵盖了欧洲五大联赛的顶尖裁判，还有其他一些联赛的。

So each of the top five major European leagues plus some others.

威廉，你觉得你会不会写一本关于裁判的书，叫《可能的任务》？

William, do you think you'll ever write the book, about referees called The Possible Job?

除非他们改变规则，否则不会。

Not unless they change the laws.

不会。

No.

威廉，那共同的主题是什么呢？

William, what about the common themes then?

你提到了那些裁判的名字，但工作中最让你触动的是压力和紧张吗？

So the referees' names you've mentioned, but the stresses of the job and the pressures, was it that struck you most?

嗯，我觉得我学到的一个基本教训是，我们真的低估了……

Well, I think one of the fundamental lessons I learned was that we really fund...

真的从根本上误解了裁判在场上所做事情的复杂性。

Really fundamentally misunderstand the complexity of what a referee is doing on the field.

我们以为他们在做决定，显然，那是他们工作的一大部分，判断是否犯规，是否黄牌，是否红牌。

We think we we think that they're making decisions, obviously, that's a large part of what their job is is is judging whether it's a foul, whether it's a yellow card, whether it's a red card.

但我真正学到的是管理球员的技巧。

But I really learned about the skill of managing players.

这基本上是一个……

It's essentially a a lesson...

这其实是一项心理工作，要设法控制住22名球员，还有替补席上的，以及所有相关的人。

A job of psychology trying to trying to control 22 players plus the benches plus whoever else is involved.

要控制住这些人的自负，真的是一门艺术。我花时间了解了裁判们是怎么做到的，这真的非常令人印象深刻。

Trying to keep keep those egos under control is a real is a real art form, and and having spent time and understood how the referees do that was was really, really striking.

那他们是怎么做到的呢？

So so how do they do that?

嗯，不同的裁判有不同的做法。

Well, different referees do it in different ways.

安东尼·泰勒，我跟他一起看过几场比赛，他以前是监狱看守。

Anthony Taylor, I attended several games with him, and he's obviously a former prison warder.

他在赛前准备上非常非常用心。

He he was extremely, extremely diligent in his preparation.

我记得我去看了一场狼队的比赛……

I mean, I went to a Walls game...

狼队对利兹联的比赛，跟他一起，而且对于每一件事……

Walls versus Leeds game with him, and for each thing...

对于场上的每一个球员，他都有笔记，记录着该用什么方式去跟他们沟通，是用强硬的态度，还是用温和的方式。

Every single player on the pitch, he had notes about what line to go back with them with, whether it was to go back with a with a strong line or whether it was to go back...

你知道，就是对他们保持冷静。

And be, you know, be quite calm with them.

你知道，这是准备工作，但显然，不同的裁判有不同的做法，有些裁判可能非常强硬和严厉，这是树立权威的一种方式。

You know, it was preparation, but, obviously, if different referees do it in different ways, some referees can be quite strong and stern, and that's the way of setting the authority.

有些裁判则用更微妙的方式，我想。

Some referees do it in more subtler ways, I suppose.

你知道，像西蒙·马齐尼亚克这样的裁判，他是……

You know, a referee like Simone Martijnjak who is...

或者像卡利纳，显然，他们的态度非常强硬，控制球员的方式非常不同，而且……

Or or Kalina, obviously, who are very quite aggressive in their stances, control players very differently and, in a...

控制球员的方式与克莱门特·图尔平这样的人截然不同，他个子不高，肢体语言不那么咄咄逼人，但他们最终都达到了……

Control the players very differently to people like Clementurpa who's, you know, quite diminutive, not so aggressive in his body language, but they both reached the end...

达到了同样的目标。

Reached the same goal.

查理，你作为球员时，被裁判管理是什么体验？

Charlie, what what was your experience then as a player being handled by referees?

关于威廉刚才说的，你能大致摸清他们的套路吗，就像他们在试图摸清你、管理你一样？

So in terms of what William's talking about there, could you sort of work out their game as as they were trying to work out you in terms of man manage you?

我当时……

I was...

你知道，我一直说马特·克拉滕伯格是最好的，因为他能给你更好的尺度，也能根据你的表现给你相应的尺度。

You know, I I always say that Matt Clattenberg was the best because he can give him a better stick, and he give you a better stick in how you're playing.

我觉得这就是我们这些前球员的看法，而且现在不一样了，因为我现在从球员变成了主教练，看到了比赛中的各种不同烦恼。

And I think that's how how we as former players, and it's different because now I'm going from former player to to head coach to to seeing the different frustrations within the game.

但我是一个喜欢和裁判开点玩笑的人，因为对我来说，当裁判真的太难了。

But I was a person that wanted to have a bit of a laugh with the referees because for me, it's, you know, it's so tough being a referee.

你知道，他们……

You know, they...

我们球员可能会犯同样的错误，而且一旦犯了就会受到惩罚。

We we as players could make head mistakes again, and one we get punished for.

这些裁判只要犯一个错，马上就会被六台摄像机对着，出现在报纸上。

These referees make one mistake, and all of a sudden, they are handed six different cameras in front of the newspaper.

这工作太难了。

It's such a difficult job.

他们要面对22个球员，两个替补席，还有六万名观众。

They've got 22 players, a bit two benches, and 60,000 to to deal with.

所以当裁判的心理压力，这活儿根本没法干。

So the psychology of being a referee, it's an impossible job.

根本没法干。

It's an impossible job.

但我觉得现在的情况是，它让裁判……

But what I do think is now, has made it.

让裁判害怕做决定，因为他们知道可以用VAR来保护自己。

Made it for referees, the fear of making a decision, and they know that they could protect themselves with the VAR.

我最不满的就是，我觉得他们不够果断，不敢直接做决定，因为他们知道旁边有VAR兜底，这就是我对VAR最恼火的地方。

And that's my biggest thing is that I don't think they're clear and concise that they wanna make a decision because they know they've got VAR at the side, and that's that's the thing for me and the frustration of VAR.

好的。

Okay.

嗯，让我们……

Well, let...

那我们就来听听裁判怎么说吧。

Let's let's speak to a referee then.

在足球界的最高水平，我很高兴地告诉大家，在周一晚上的节目中，我们现在请到了斯拉夫科·温契奇，他三个月前在纽约执法了世界杯决赛，还执法过欧冠决赛和欧联杯决赛。

Right at the very top of the game, I'm delighted to say on the Monday nightclub, we're now joined by Slavko Vincic who refereed that World Cup final in New York just three months ago as referee to Champions League final, Europa League final as well.

那场比赛是流浪者对阵法兰克福。

That was that was the Rangers game against Eintracht Frankfurt.

斯拉夫科，谢谢你。

Slavko, thank you.

非常感谢你来到我们节目。

Thank you so much for joining us.

我是说，在这么短的时间里，有太多问题想问你了。

I mean, is there is so much to ask you here in such a short space of time.

我是说，咱们先说说这个不可能完成的工作吧。

I mean, let's start on the impossible job.

虽然大家都这么说，但你已经干这行很久了。

So that's what it's being described as, but you've done this job for for a long time.

这工作是不是不可能……

Is it imposs...

是不是不可能完成？

Is it impossible?

大家晚上好。

So good evening to everybody.

英国的朋友们，晚上好。

Good evening to UK.

不。

No.

这工作是可以完成的，但确实非常难。

It is a possible job, but it's very difficult one.

说实话，这工作确实很难，但并非不可能。

So to be honest, it it is impossible, but difficult.

好的。

Okay.

那你个人是怎么应对这份工作的压力的？

So what about then, you personally, how did you deal with the pressure of the job?

我特别想到的是，就在我们记忆犹新的今年夏天，在纽约，你指挥了全球最大的足球赛事。

And I'm thinking particularly, because it is in our recent memory, walking out you know, in New York this summer, the biggest game of football on the planet, and you're in charge.

你是怎么应对那种压力的？

How how do you deal with that?

要描述所有的情绪真的很难，尤其是这次。

So it's very difficult to to describe all the emotions, especially for this one.

世界杯决赛可能是体育界能提供的最重大的比赛了。

World Cup final is probably the biggest match that sport sport can offer.

对我来说，还有另一个层面。

So for me for me, there was also another dimension.

我已经知道那将是我的最后一场比赛了。

I already knew it was going to be my last match.

我在世界杯之前就决定，比赛结束后我就结束我的裁判生涯。

I had decided before the World Cup that I will finish my refereeing career after the tournament.

所以当我走进决赛场地时，我知道没有下一场比赛了。

So when I walk out for the final, I knew there will be no next match.

这带来了一种特别的压力。

That creates a special kind of pressure.

在一场比赛中，你整个职业生涯所做的一切似乎都汇聚在一起。

In in one match, somehow everything you have done during your whole career comes together.

多年的努力、牺牲、比赛、正确的判罚、艰难的时刻。

Years of work, sacrifices, matches, good decisions, difficult moments.

而且最终，人们也会因为这场决赛的表现而记住你。

And finally, people also remember you what what happens in this final match.

所以没有第二次机会。

So there is no second chance.

没有那种，怎么说呢，接下来一周、下个周末的那种感觉，对吧？

There is no, like how to say, the rest of the following week, the following weekend, yeah?

而且，在国家队比赛里，还有另一层情感因素。

So, and with national teams, there is also another emotional dimension.

你面对的不仅仅是每边11名球员。

So you are not only dealing with, let's say, 11 players from each side.

背后是数百万的人，两个国家，球迷，家庭，还有整个民族的梦想和情感。

Behind there are millions of people, two countries, supporters, families, dreams of a national emotions.

对他们来说，这可能是他们一生中最重要的体育时刻。

So for them can be the biggest sporting moment of their life.

所以，当然，当你走出去的时候，你会有所感触，但通常，到……

So, yeah, of course, you feel something when you walk out, but, generally, by...

你必须，怎么说呢，把情感和责任分开。

You must, how to say, separate emotions from responsibility.

一旦哨声响起，你就不能想，这是我最后一场比赛了。

Once the whistle goes, you cannot think, this is my last match.

这是世界杯决赛。

This is the World Cup final.

全世界都在看。

The whole world is watching.

所以你只需要想下一个局面、下一个挑战、下一个决定，这就是我一直应对压力的方式。

So all you have to think is the next situation, the next challenge, the next decision that was always my dealing with the pressure.

你要尊重这个场合，但不能让这个场合压过你。

So you respect the occasion, but you cannot allow that the occasion comes bigger than you.

所以开场哨响后，你需要训练你的大脑，这需要经验，告诉自己这只是一场足球比赛。

So after the first whistle, you need to train your brain, and this comes with experience that it's only a football.

它变成了一场足球比赛。

It became a football.

你知道吗？

You know?

加夫纳，我能问你两个问题吗？

Gavna, can I ask you two questions, please?

作为球员，我们能感觉到裁判在比赛中有点失控。

As players, we could sense that referees sort of lose control within the games.

那裁判自己有没有感觉到这一点呢？

And do the referees sense that themselves?

还有，他们实际上会怎么做来重新掌控比赛呢？

And also, what would they actually do to to regain that control of the game?

这个嘛……

So it's...

第一个问题，答案是肯定的。

The first one, for sure.

裁判……

The the the ref...

球员们一旦感觉到裁判有点犹豫，他们立刻就能闻到血腥味。

The the players immediately when they feel that some uncertainty, they feel the blood the blood immediately.

所以……

So...

而且，当然，当你看到球员的反应，觉得他们在某个时刻不信任你的时候，你会有那种感觉，就是……

And, of course, and when when you see the reaction of the players that they don't trust you in some certain moment, you have this feeling that you are...

现在你需要重新掌控局面。

Now you need to regain the control.

所以这就是裁判的素质，他们能很快适应。

So this is the quality of the referees that they can adapt very quickly.

他们怎么做，方式不同，个性也不同。

How they are doing is different approaches, different personalities.

我们都是不同的人。

We are all different human beings.

我们的反应，怎么说呢，各有各的方式，跟我们的文化等等有关。

We we react in, how to say, our our different way, our culture, and so on.

但是，是的，你需要很快做到这一点，而且你需要找到……

But, yeah, you need to do it very quickly, and, you need to find the...

这种沟通，让球员感觉到，即使他们不是……

This communication that the players feel that even they are not...

怎么说呢，即使他们觉得你那一刻判罚不对，只要你足够公正，他们就会在接下来的比赛时间里信任你。

How to say, even they feel that you were not correct at this moment, that you are fair enough to trust you in the next next moments of the match.

斯拉夫科，有一个故事真的让我……

Slavko, one of the stories that really...

我觉得最让我惊叹的其中一件事，就是去年我看你执法欧冠半决赛，阿森纳对巴黎圣日耳曼，我记得是在伦敦踢的。

I think one of the things that really amazed me is the example I watched you when you refereed the Champions League semifinal last year, Arsenal versus Paris Saint Germain, I believe it was in London it was.

然后我……

And I...

在那场比赛中，你提到你早早被迫出示了一张黄牌，你失去了控制。

And in that match, you spoke about how you how you were forced into a yellow card early in the match, you lost control.

我特别记得在解说时，阿兰·希勒说裁判在这里失控了，或者感觉你正在失去控制。

And I specifically remember on commentary, Alan Shearer saying the referee's lost control here or felt like you're losing control.

但是你会……

But you get...

你非常坦诚地跟我聊过，你是如何重新掌控局面的，用一种……

You you spoke to me very candidly about how you regain control with a...

你那个……

What you...

我觉得你管那个叫战术性黄牌。

I think what you call is it was a was a tactical yellow card.

也许你可以用那个例子，说说你是怎么失去控制，又是怎么重新掌控局面的。

Perhaps you can use that example of how you lost control and how you regain regain that control.

所以这不只是这一场比赛的事。

So it's it's not only about this match.

这种情况在比赛中经常发生。

This this this happened happened there a lot of times in the matches.

你知道，第一张黄牌，尤其是在重大比赛中，应该足够明确，怎么说呢，就是定下黄牌的尺度。

You know, the first yellow card, especially in the big match, should be clear enough that, how to say, that sets the line, line of yellow cards.

而在那场比赛中，那更像是一次战术犯规，所以……

And in in that particular match, it was more a tactical foul, so it's...

那更像是一张裁判给的黄牌，而不是大家通常理解的那种黄牌。

It was more a refereeing yellow card than the yellow card that everybody understands.

所以，是的，在那之后，当你失去这种控制的时候，你需要……

So, yeah, after that, you you you need to when you lose this...

怎么说呢，当球员和……

How to say, when the the players and the...

所有观众和其他人都不太明白你为什么给这张黄牌，只有裁判才懂，那之后，你需要……

All the audience and everything don't understand really why you gave this yellow card that only referees understand, then after that, you need to...

尤其是如果这发生在比赛早期，那你需要在接下来的每一个判罚中都做到非常精准和正确。

Especially if it happens in the early stage of the of the match, then you need to be really precise and correct in every next decision.

我说的是那些小判罚，比如界外球，通过这些你可以重新赢得所有球员和替补席的信任。

And I'm talking about the small decisions from the throw in that that you can regain the trust of the of the of the all the players and the the bench.

斯拉夫科，你能……

Slavko, can you...

你提到通过做出主动决定来重新掌控局面，比如给一张黄牌来试着约束球员。

You you mentioned kind of regaining control through through making an active decision, so awarding a a yellow card to try and kind of, I guess, rein the players in.

那你有没有可能通过不这样做来掌控局面，让比赛自然进行，接受比赛的这种……

Can you also assert control by not doing that, by allowing the game to flow, to accept that the kind of the game is

正在发展成

is taking on

那种局面吗？

that kind of nature?

这要看比赛情况。

It depends on the match.

当然可以。

Of course, you can.

关键在于，怎么说呢，平衡。

It's all about the, how to say, balance.

你明白吗？

You know?

但一般来说，该给黄牌就得给黄牌，因为裁判的职责是维护比赛的规则。

But generally, what is a yellow card needs to be a yellow card because the referee is there to protect the loss of the game.

但也有一些情况不是那么，怎么说呢，非黑即白。

But you have also situations which are not so, how to say, black or white.

所以要看你在哪条线上，你会，你会，你会……

So depends which line you you you you will you will you will...

在特定比赛中你会采取哪种方式，但需要在左或右之间保持平衡。

Which approach you will have in certain match, but it needs to be a balance on the left or the right side.

斯拉夫科，你以前在VAR之前就执法过比赛吧。

Slavko, did, I mean, you'd have refereed pre VAR.

VAR有没有改变你的执法方式，还是你的……

Did VAR change your approach to refereeing, or was your pro...

还是……

Or was...

你的流程还是一样的吗？

Is your process the same?

所以我们的执法方式肯定变了。

So we are we are for sure change the the the approach of the refereeing.

就是……

It's...

所以有很多专家。

So there there are many experts.

首先，如果我们谈VAR，什么……

So first of all, if we are talking about VAR, what...

什么……什么改变了……

What's what's ex...

我的理念和我的……有什么变化？

What's changed in my philosophy and my...

所以……

So it...

一个是你被叫去看屏幕，然后推翻你的判罚的时候。

One is when you when you are called going to the screen and overturning your decision.

去看屏幕，那是一种……

So going to the screen, it's a...

那真的是内心的一场斗争……

It was really a fight inside the...

这始终是一场内心的较量，怎么说呢，心理层面的斗争，因为大多数情况下，VAR叫你过去是因为他觉得你最初的判罚可能有问题。

It's all always was, and it is a fight in your, how to say, psychological part, because in most cases VAR calls you because he believes something may be wrong with your original decision.

而且大多数情况下，他们叫你过去是有非常充分的理由的。

And in most cases, we'll have a very strong reason to call you.

他们有更多的角度，不同的机位，不同速度的回放，还有更多的时间去分析，这些你在场上实时判罚时是没有的。

It has more angles, camera angles, different speeds, replays, more time to analyze that you had in real time on the pitch.

所以作为裁判，你首先需要的是开放的心态。

So as a referee, the first thing you need is an open mind.

你知道吗？

You know?

你必须准备好接受这个事实：也许你确实没看到某些东西，也许你的角度不好，或者你的理解有误。

So you have to be ready to accept that maybe you didn't see something okay, maybe your angle was not good, or maybe your interpretation was wrong.

但另一方面，VAR也是人。

But, you know, on the other side, the VR is also human.

所以有时候VAR可能会过于关注某一个细节，而忽略了其他因素，或者……

So sometimes the VR can become too focused on one detail, miss another element, or inter...

对情况的解读不同。

Interpret the situation differently.

所以这就是为什么场上的裁判仍然有责任。

So that's why the referee in the field still has responsibility.

所以这一点没有改变，但VAR改变了那种压力，因为你现在有了一个安全降落伞。

So this is one thing didn't change, but the VAR changing in that kind of pressure that you have a safe parachute now.

所以如果是一个明显的错误，一般来说，你会，怎么说呢，你可以重新查看或审视那个判罚，获得更好的信息，然后纠正它，然后……

So if it will be a clear one, in general, you will, how to say, you can correct or see the decision again to have a better information, to correct it, and then the...

最后，如果你改变了判罚，你犯了最初的错误，但球队不会受到影响。

Finally, if you change a decision, you make an original mistake, but the teams will not be affected.

结果不会受到影响。

The result will not be affected.

所以这种压力现在小了一些，怎么说呢。

So this pressure is now less, how to say.

我在想，你显然管理并执法过一些……

I'm just thinking that you've obviously managed and referees some of

那些精彩的比赛，伟大的人物……

the great games, a great man...

他们都是伟大的球员。

They're great players.

但你会用不同的方式管理这些个性吗？

But would you manage personalities differently?

所以，就像你说的，你会不会对经验丰富的队长和对一个刚上来的19岁队长说话方式不一样？还是说，你跟他们说话的方式都差不多？

So again, like you say, would you speak to an experienced captain differently from, say, a 19 year old captain that's just coming through, or would it still be the same sort of way of talking to them?

哦，这个问题很难回答，但我的理念是，你知道，如果你……

Oh, it's difficult to answer this one, but philosophy is that, you know, if you...

从一开始，从一开始，裁判可能会犯错，但我们不能失去自己的个性。

From the start, from the start, referees can make a mistake, but we cannot lose our personality.

所以我们必须公平，我们必须有一种，怎么说呢，这种权威不是一种距离。

So we must be fair, we must have a, how to say, this this this authority which we have is not a distance.

你明白吗？

You know?

就是执行规则，执行比赛规则，划定界限，但我们必须保持同样的态度。

It's just making the rules, implying laws of the game, setting the lines, but we had to have the same approach.

所以如果……

So if...

这种态度需要有人情味，你知道，不管对方是顶级队长还是十九岁的队长。

This approach needs to be like human, you know, so doesn't matter if this is a top level captain or if it's nineteen years captain.

你需要保持同样的态度。

You you need to have the same the same approach.

不。

No.

斯拉夫科，作为这本书报道的一部分，我和两位裁判相处了一段时间，你肯定都很熟悉他们，克莱门特·图尔帕和托比亚斯·斯蒂勒。

Slavko, as part as part of the reports on the book, I spent time with two referees, both of whom you obviously know very well, Clementurpa and Tobias Stila.

他们两位的执法风格非常不同。

Both of them had very different approaches to refereeing.

我们聊了很多关于凭感觉做决定的话题，比如判罚点球、红牌甚至黄牌，而你自己也不太确定的时候。

We spoke about quite a lot about decisions of feeling where where you're calling a big decision a penalty or a red card or even a yellow card, and you aren't quite sure about it.

你看不到接触。

You don't see the contact.

你靠的是直觉。

You're using your intuition.

你特别跟我提到过欧冠决赛，当时你给维尼修斯·儒尼奥尔出示了黄牌，尽管你并没有看到犯规，但你的直觉告诉了你。

You spoke spoke to me specifically about the Champions League final when you booked Vinicius Junior even though you hadn't seen the foul, but your intuition told you.

当谈到那两位裁判，克莱蒙特和托比亚斯时，他们的做法截然不同。

When it goes to those two referees, Clemont and Tobias, they both have very different approaches.

克莱蒙特特别说过，如果他对那些判罚不确定，但他认为是犯规，他仍然会判点球，仍然会给黄牌，仍然会给红牌。

Clemont specifically says that if he isn't sure about those decisions, will but he thinks it is, he will still give the penalty, still give the yellow card, still give the red card.

托比亚斯则相反。

Tobias is the opposite.

如果他不确定，他会选择

If he's not sure, he will go

去

to

VAR。

VAR.

基本上，如果他不确定，他会把重大判罚交给VAR。

Essentially, that he will defer big calls to VAR if he isn't sure.

我很好奇，根据你的经验，你是如何鼓起勇气相信那种直觉的，当你明知道有……

I'm curious to know, in your experience, how did you how did you find the courage to trust that intuition when you knew there were...

就像你之前说的，有那个保险伞在？

There was that parachute, as you said before?

所以，当我跟你谈直觉的时候，我不是指瞎猜。

So so when I when I talk with you about the intuition, I didn't mean about the guessing.

你知道吗？

You know?

在那么多场比赛、那么多次对抗之后，你的大脑开始自动识别出一些模式，怎么说呢。

So after so many matches, after after so many thousands of challenges, you saw your brain start to recognize, how to say, patterns almost automatically.

有时候你的视线并不完美，或者说看不到确切的接触点，但你能看到球员的速度、防守球员腿部的时机、进攻球员的反应，还有球的运行方向等等。

Sometimes your eyes don't have a perfect view or exact, let's say, point of contact, but you see the speed of the player, the moment of the defender's leg, the reaction of the attacker, I don't know, direction of the ball, ball...

身体的平衡，你知道，所有这些因素加在一起。

The body balance, you know, all of these things together.

你的大脑会非常快地处理这些信息。

Your brain then processes this very quickly.

这就像经验丰富的守门员一样。

It's similar to experienced goalkeeper.

对吧？

You know?

所以，守门员会预判前锋会怎么射门。

So, goalkeeper is anticipating various various striker will shoot.

他不会去计算十种不同的情况。

He doesn't calculate 10 different things.

对吧？

You know?

他只是有经验，有些东西告诉他，他可能……

He's just experienced, and some tells him that he's probab...

可能会发生什么……

What probably will...

接下来会发生什么。

Is going to happen.

所以对裁判来说，直觉其实就像经验，你懂的，但有一个重要的区别。

So from the referee, intuition is really like a experience, you know, but there is important difference.

直觉不能……

So intuition cannot...

能帮你，但你绝不能凭空捏造，你懂的，就是没有发生的事，你懂的，所以……

Can help you, but you must never invent something, you know, what didn't happen, you know, so...

或者没看到的事。

Or what didn't see.

这就是……

And this is the...

这也和你问的VR话题有关。

This is about the topics you ask also about the VR.

所以你有三种可能性。

So you are, you have three three possibilities.

我们说的是，比如说，重大决定。

We we are talking about the the, let's say, about, big decisions.

所以不仅仅是，你看到犯规，然后吹罚点球。

So it's not only you you have option, you see the penalty, and you whistle a penalty.

或者你看到情况，对你来说这不是点球。

Or you see the situation, this is for you not the penalty.

所以你做出了决定，是点球还是不是点球。

So you made the decision penalty or no penalty.

但这只是...

But this is...

还有第三种情况，当你没有足够的信息时，你被挡住了，或者你没有看清，无法决定这是不是点球。

There are also a third option when you don't have enough information, so you were blocked or you didn't see enough to decide this is a penalty or this is not a penalty.

然后这第三种选择就是，你不去凭空捏造，或者吹罚你没有看到的东西。

And then this third option is that you are not inventing something or whistle something you didn't

看到了。

see.

所以

So

这就是你需要让VR来帮你做决定的时候。

this is the moment when when you need to let VR to do your job.

它会告诉你或者给你提供你没看到的信息。

So he will tell you or give you information what you didn't see.

所以这可以是，怎么说呢，没有VR介入，或者VR介入。

So this can be no VR, how to say, intervention or VR intervention.

无所谓。

Doesn't matter.

但总共有三个选项，

But there are three options,

就像我

as I

我刚才说的。

said.

所以有时候人们会说裁判在等VR。

So sometimes the people are saying that the referees are waiting for VR.

我觉得这不是那个……那个……那个……

I don't think this is the the the the...

怎么说呢，合适的词，因为你有三个选择。

How to say the right word because you have three option.

所以，判点球，当你有足够的信息确定这是你的……

So penalty, when you have enough information that this is your...

你的点球。

A penalty for you.

或者不判点球，当你看到情况，而且各种因素都指向不判点球。

Or no penalty when you see the situation and the elements are for no penalty.

然后第三种情况，就是你没有足够的信息来决定前两种。

And then the third one, when you don't have enough to decide first two.

你明白吗？

You understand?

斯拉夫科，

Slavko, to

但VAR在多大程度上会取代那种直觉判断呢？

what extent, though, does does VAR kind of override that intuition?

因为我觉得很多人抱怨的，就是那种对比赛细节的过度判罚，感觉像是你二三十年裁判生涯积累下来的那种对比赛的嗅觉和经验，好像被一个不在现场、看不到也感受不到比赛的人给架空了，他只看几个摄像头的角度、慢动作回放，就做出决定。

Because I think one of the complaints that a lot of people have around what feels like the micro refereeing of incidents is that maybe that like smell of the game, that that expertise that you've built up over the course of twenty or thirty years officiating, that is is is somehow kind of disempowered by somebody who's not there, who's not seeing it, not feeling it, making a decision based on X number of camera angles, slow motion replays, all this stuff.

有时候我觉得，VAR在严格执行规则条文方面确实很厉害，但在理解规则精神方面却完全不行。

It feels sometimes as though to me, VAR is really, really good at implementing the letter of the law, but absolutely terrible at understanding the spirit of the law.

确实如此。

Has been.

这些事很难评价，你知道的，但总的来说，我觉得VAR纠正了超过90%的明显错误。

It's very difficult to comment these things, you know, but generally, I think VR corrected more than 90% of clear and obvious mistakes.

而且在VAR背后，还是人在操作，还是人在做决定。

And behind behind the VR, it's still the human being, it's still the person.

所以我们不可能有一个完美的世界。

So we cannot have a perfect world.

所以总会有失误。

So we will have mistakes.

这还是一项，怎么说呢，年轻的技术。

It's still, how to say, a young technology.

我们正在适应，努力让它变得更好，但只要有人参与，总会有不同的解读。

So we are adapting, we try to make it better, but when the human being is involved, we will always have a different interpretation.

总会有，怎么说呢，失误或者不是失误。

We will always have, how to say, mistakes or not mistakes.

我觉得这就是……

And I think this is the...

最终，这就是我们生活的世界。

Finally, the world we are living.

Slavko，我们有时候在比赛中遇到裁判或官员做出重大或有争议的判罚后，会说希望赛后能采访他们，让他们解释一下这个决定。

Slavko, we'll we'll sometimes say after a a big call, a contentious call by a referee and the officials in a game that we'd love to hear them interviewed afterwards to give an interview after the game to explain the decision.

所以我们经常会收到裁判机构的声明。

So so we'll we'll often get a statement from from, you know, the the referee's authorities.

你有没有在比赛后想过要出来解释你做出的判罚，还是觉得那样只会给自己惹来一堆麻烦？

Did did you ever feel after a game that you wanted to speak and explain the decisions you've given, or did you actually think that would just open a whole world of trouble for you?

没有。

No.

比如说，如果你……

Let's say if you if you...

我并不反对那样做。

I'm not against that.

我并没有……

I didn't I I didn't...

我没有参与过那种，怎么说呢，流程，但如果说我想说点什么，我得确保我掌握了所有发生的情况。

I was not involved in that that kind of, how to say, process, but let's say if I want to speak something, I need to be sure that I have all the information what happened.

所以，你知道，有时候如果你没看清回放，如果你没有，你知道，如果比赛结束后你头脑还发热，那最好还是别说话。

So, you know, sometimes it's better not to speak if you didn't see the clip correctly, if you don't have, you know, if you are still a warm head after the match and so on.

所以我觉得……

So I...

我不反对，但这……

I'm not against it, but it's...

我嘛，你知道，保持中立。

I'm, you know, neutral.

我也不清楚。

I don't know.

我也不清楚。

I don't know.

我们我们我们……

We we we...

斯拉夫科，我们一直在聊这份工作有多难。

We've been talking, Slavko, about how difficult the job is.

你当初为什么想当裁判？最大的成就感又是什么？

Why why did you wanna do it in the first place, and what what are the biggest highs?