Spygate：埃克特获准继续担任南安普顿主帅

这个BBC播客在英国以外的地区由广告支持。

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside The UK.

这里是约翰·贝内特主持的足球日报播客。

This is the football daily podcast with John Bennett.

大家好，欢迎收听足球日报播客的这期特别节目。

Hello, and welcome to this bonus episode of the football daily podcast.

通达·埃克特将继续担任南安普顿主教练，他因在间谍门丑闻中的角色被处以六周缓刑禁赛。

Tonda Eckert is to stay on as Southampton manager having been handed a suspended six week ban for his role in the Spygate scandal.

现在让我们请进BBC广播电台索伦特站的亚当·布莱克莫尔，他每周都关注南安普顿的比赛，还有来自优秀的72加播客的前雷丁和沃特福德球员乔比·麦卡努夫。

Now let's bring in BBC Radio Solent's Adam Blackmore who follows Southampton week in week out, and also from the excellent 72 plus podcast, the former Reading and Watford player, Jobi McAnuff.

你们好，两位。

So hello to both of you.

亚当，这件事对你来说真是漫长的过程。

Adam, this has been a long saga for you.

你为此做了很多工作。

Lots of work for you.

感觉现在终于到尾声了。

Feels like we're at the end point now.

但在我们讨论处罚之前，先提醒一下我们是怎么走到这一步的。

But before we we get into discussing the punishment, remind us how we got to this point.

嗯，回到五月，你还记得南安普顿即将在5月9日于河畔球场对阵米德尔斯堡，进行附加赛半决赛首回合比赛。

Well, back in May, you remember Southampton were about to play Middlesbrough in the playoff semi final first leg up at the Riverside on the May 9.

而在那两天前，事情……

And two days earlier, it...

有消息开始传出，说米德尔斯堡的训练基地工作人员看到南安普顿的一名工作人员在观看他们训练，然后事情就迅速发酵了。到了5月8日，英足总就以违反诚信规则、行为不诚信为由对他们提出指控，事情一下子就失控了。

The story started seeping out that Middlesbrough staff at their training ground had seen a Saints member of staff watching them train, and it all grew from there, didn't very quickly, by the May 8, they were being charged by the EFL, for their sort of good faith rule, not acting in good faith, and it all suddenly spiraled.

所以尽管他们留在了比赛中，我想英足总原本是希望他们会在两回合比赛中输给米德尔斯堡的。

So although they stayed in the competition, I think the EFL would have hoped they would have lost to Middlesbrough over two legs.

但他们没有。

They didn't.

他们在第二回合戏剧性地赢得了比赛，在……

They won the second leg dramatically in the ex...

在加时赛里。

In extra time.

然后，当然，他们就被淘汰了。

And then, of course, they were expelled.

所以他们被英格兰足球联赛从季后赛决赛中除名了。

So they were expelled by the EFL from the playoff final.

然后他们被罚了六分，也就是扣六分，后来减到了四分。

They were then given a six point, a minus six point hammering, which was then mitigated to four.

那是那一方面的处罚。

That was the punishment from that side.

然后在七月，英足总对坦达·埃克特提起了指控。

And then in July, the FA charged Tonda Eckert.

所以俱乐部被英格兰足球联赛处罚了。

So the club were punished by the EFL.

埃克特，在7月22日，被处罚了……

Eckert, the July 22, was punished by...

或者被足总指控三次损害足球声誉，分别是监视牛津、伊普斯维奇和米德尔斯堡。

Or was charged by the FA with bringing the game into disrepute on three occasions for spying on Oxford, on Ipswich, and on Middlesbrough.

这就是我们走到今天这一步的原因。

That's how we got to where we are.

而今天，我们得到了这样的消息：禁赛是暂缓执行，而不是直接实行的。

And today, we get this news, a suspended ban rather than a straight ban.

你感到惊讶吗？

Are you surprised?

你觉得他们为什么会走到这一步？

Why do you think that they've got to that point?

嗯，我已经尽力了，花了不少时间仔细阅读了今天下午公布决定和声明时附带的那份冗长报告。

Well, I've tried my best in the time I've had to read through the lengthy report that's accompanied accompanied the decision and announcement this afternoon.

但是约翰，我觉得他们已经考虑到了俱乐部此前发生的一切情况，尽管这次是针对主教练个人的处罚。

But but, John, I I think they've taken into account everything that has happened to the club already despite this being a a individual manager punishment.

我认为他们也考虑到了EFL的决定对俱乐部造成的影响。

I think they've taken into account what's impacted the club with the EFL decisions.

我觉得通达·埃克特做得很好，第一，请求原谅，第二，一有机会就承认了错误。

I think Tonda Eckert has done very well to, a, ask for forgiveness, b, admit guilt as soon as he had the opportunity.

他做完这些之后，就去学习英格兰足球的知识了。

And once he's done that, he's then gone away, educated himself on English football.

他甚至和一些人坐下来聊英格兰足球的文化。

He's even sat down with people like to talk about the culture of English football.

他真的把英足总的手册读了一遍，并且尽力表现出悔意，道歉，试图请求某种原谅，这样他就能继续做他的工作了。

He's read up on the FA handbook literally, and he has done his best to show contrition and, to apologize and to try and ask for some sort of, forgiveness so he can get on with doing his job.

我觉得这些都被考虑进去了，还有一些细节，比如他没有让任何人去刺探伊普斯维奇，在他们四月份对阵南安普顿的那天。

And I think that's all been taken into account as well as some of the details, like he did not ask anybody to go and spy on Ipswich on the day of their game, against Saints in April.

有人主动提供了一些视频片段，问他要不要看，他决定看了，他说他很后悔。

He was offered some video footage of whether he'd like to see it and took the decision, he says, regrettably, to to to look at it.

所以他没有组织那种……

So he didn't organize a sort of...

这不是一次有组织、系统性的刺探行动。

This wasn't an institutional systemic spying operation.

这不是像加拿大女足在奥运会那种用无人机的情况。

This wasn't drones like the Canadian women's team at the Olympic tournament.

这是……

This was...

我觉得，这种细节上的差别，对小组和委员会在判断处罚严重程度时，是有影响的。

That sort of thing, that little detail makes a difference to the panel, I think, and the commission when judging the severity of the punishment.

亚当，我也读了一下那份长报告。

I've been having a read as well, Adam, that that long report.

有意思的是，关于通达·埃克特的部分，报告认为他是一个特别令人印象深刻的证人，他非常深刻、认真地反思了所发生的事情，他的悔过程度之深、之真诚，已经达到了人们能合理期待的最高水平。

And it it was interesting that the sections about Tonda Eckert said it found him to be a particularly impressive witness who's reflected very deeply and seriously on what has happened, and his level of contrition was as deep and as meaningful as could reasonably be expected.

所以，乔比，我很喜欢你在72+播客上谈论这个话题的那些时刻。

So, Jobi, I've I've enjoyed the times when you've spoken about this on the 72 plus podcast.

我很想听听你的看法，因为我知道过去几周有一些强烈的观点。

I'm fascinated to hear what you think about this because I know there was some strong views over the last few weeks.

我记得是尼尔·哈里斯说过，他希望处罚非常严厉。

I think it was Neil Harris who who spoke about wanting the the punishment to be very harsh.

你觉得托恩达·埃克特在这里是不是处罚得太轻了？

Do you think Tonda Eckert has got off lightly here?

非常非常轻。

Very, very lightly.

而且我得说实话。

And I've gotta be honest.

你知道，我觉得就委员会而言……

You know, I think in terms of where the commission...

我觉得把这一点说清楚也非常重要。

I think it's really important also to to make that clear.

我觉得英足总在推动自己，建议大约三个月的禁赛。

I think the FA were pushing themselves and and recommended a a ban of about three months.

然后，委员会又得自己得出结论，什么样的处罚才是合适的。

And, again, the commission then have to be the ones who come to that conclusion of what the appropriate sanction is.

我不太明白，委员会怎么从三个月或者甚至四个月，也就是十六周，一下子变成完全没有任何处罚。

I'm not quite sure how you go from sort of three months or four months even in terms of the commission sixteen weeks to absolutely nothing.

我知道他被禁赛了，但最终他并不会错过任何比赛时间。

I know it's suspended, but ultimately, he's not gonna miss any time on that sideline.

听我说。

And listen.

我完全理解南安普顿的球迷、涉事球员以及俱乐部里那些对事情一无所知的工作人员，他们受到了极其严厉的惩罚。

I absolutely understand that Southampton fans, the players who were involved, other staff at the football club who had no knowledge of what was going on, have been incredibly harshly punished.

不过我觉得这处罚是合理的。

I felt justly, though.

我觉得他们根本不该晋级到决赛，更别提可能升级了。毕竟他们都承认作弊了，这就是事实。

I just do not think they could have gone through to a final and potentially got themselves promoted, having admitted cheating, which is what it is.

咱们就实事求是吧。在这个国家，我们的规则和条例都是这么规定的，尤其是比尔斯塔案之后出台的那条新规。

Let's let's call it as it is in terms of how we do things in in this country and and our rules and the regulations, and particularly after Bialsa, that rule that was was brought in.

我理解这一点，但我还是觉得归根结底，这一切的责任都在一个人身上，那就是托恩达·埃克特。

So I get that, but I still feel ultimately one man was responsible for all of that, and that was Tonda Eckert.

所以我认为，显然他需要单独面对一个案件来做出回应。

And I think that is why there has obviously been a separate case for him to answer.

我就是搞不懂，那个委员会怎么会得出这样的结论，说他作为带队的主教练，居然不用在边线那边停赛。

And I just cannot understand how that commission has come to the conclusion that he won't face any time off that sort of touchline in terms of being the man who leads his football team out.

尤其是现在，你看看那些教练因为什么被禁赛，你知道的，就为了一些特别小的事，都能错过好几场比赛。

I think particularly when you see what managers get suspended for nowadays, you know, enough to miss games for, you know, real petty stuff.

而且他们明明已经承认了，你知道的，三次违反规则，结果现在居然一点停赛都不用，这真是……

And the fact that they've obviously admitted, you know, on three occasions, breaching those rules and then to not now have to serve any length of time at all, it is...

我觉得这真的很让人震惊，绝对是我没想到的。

I feel it's a real shock and certainly something I didn't see coming.

你跟足球圈里很多人聊过，教练、球员。

And you speak to a lot of people in the game, managers, players.

你觉得你的看法会跟他们一样吗？

Do you think your your views will be their views?

大部分……

Mostly...

足球圈里大多数人都会觉得他罚得太轻了。

Most people in football will think he's got off lightly.

那他这周日回到教练席，对阵朴茨茅斯那场大战，会有多受争议呢？

And how controversial will it be that he's back in the dugout this weekend, this Sunday, massive game against Portsmouth?

其实我到时候会去现场。

Well, I'm gonna be down there, actually.

哦。

Oh.

再说，那场比赛本身就已经很火爆了，但确实是一场非常重要的比赛。

Again, it's gonna be pretty hot as it is, but it's a huge game.

听着。

Listen.

我觉得从整体氛围来看，很多人都不太愿意多说什么。

I think in terms of the general mood, reluctant to speak on many other people's part.

但我确实从和一些教练的交流中了解到，就像你说的，我们最近请了尼尔·哈里斯上节目，他对这件事态度非常强硬，认为南安普顿其实应该在夏天就解雇唐达·埃克特。

But I do know from speaking to managers, as you said, we had Neil Harris on our show recently, and he was very, very strong on it and felt that actually Southampton should have probably dismissed Tonda Eckert in the summer.

这一点我也同意。

Again, something I agreed with.

我觉得那样就能把这件事画上句号了。

I think that would have drawn a line under it.

我觉得这能表现出俱乐部方面的悔意，也许能表明他们意识到发生了不该发生的事，而且这不是一个备受尊敬的俱乐部该有的做法。

I thought it would shown a bit of contrition from the club's perspective, maybe an understanding that something happened that shouldn't have done, and it's not the way things that a really well respected club act.

他们支持了他。

They backed him.

现在看起来，那个决定好像被证明是对的，因为他不会错过任何一场足球比赛。

It almost seems as though that action now has been justified, the fact that he won't miss any any football matches.

而且我再次觉得，作为一个踢过球、当过教练、还临时管理过球队的人，

And I just feel, again, from someone who's played, I've coached, I've had an interim period of management.

我觉得上个赛季末，基尔姆·赫尔伯格非常坦诚，他公开谈到了他为赢得一场足球比赛所付出的努力和精力。

I think Kilm Helberg at the end of last season was incredibly honest and and open about, you know, the effort and the energy he puts into trying to win a football match.

约翰，现在这个时代，为了争取那一点优势，那种竞争优势，你付出的努力是非常细致的。

And it is so detailed, John, in this day and age in terms of the lengths you go to, you know, to try and get that edge, that competitive edge.

这是比赛的一部分，但其中也有公平性。

And that is part and parcel of the game, but there's a fairness to that.

你知道，当像南安普顿或通达·埃克特那样明显越界时，对我来说，那应该带来严重的后果，但我觉得我们并没有看到这样的制裁。

You know, when you step over the line quite clearly as Southampton did or Tonda Eckert did, for me, that should have severe repercussions, and I don't think we've seen that with, you know, the sanctions that have been handed down.

亚当，你对乔比刚才说的那些看法有什么想法？

Adam, what what what do you make there of what what Jobi's had to say in in his views?

这不会对未来的其他教练构成多大的威慑，对吧？

This won't be much of a deterrent, will it, to to other managers in the future?

而且

And

我不是来为……是的，辩护的。

I'm not here to, you know, defend Yeah.

通达·埃克特。

Tonda Eckert.

我强烈地同意……

I called strongly with...

在你的电台或我去的每个电台，我都说过，一旦他们承认有罪，他就应该被解雇，因为我认为这拖累了俱乐部，损害了一个家庭俱乐部的声誉。

On your station or every station I spoke to that he should have been sacked when it happened, once they they admitted guilt, because I thought it was it was dragging the club through the mire, changing the reputation of a family club.

我觉得这对南安普顿和英格兰足球来说都很丢脸。

I thought it was embarrassing for the Southampton and for English football.

所以我觉得他非常幸运。

So I think he's very lucky.

不过，一旦老板，也就是主席，决定支持他而不是解雇他，我……

Once the owner, though, who's the chairman, decided he was gonna back him and not sack him, I...

那你也就只能继续往前看了，对吧？

You then have to get on with it, don't you?

这是德拉甘·索拉克的一次赌博，现在正如你所说，乔比，这个赌注得到了回报。

And it was a gamble by Dragon Sholak, which has now, as you said, Jobi, been vindicated.

但他……

But he's...

毫无疑问，他非常幸运，甚至没有受到……

There's no doubt he's very lucky to have not even got...

我原本以为他每项指控会被禁赛三到五场，然后俱乐部可能会面临一个艰难的决定。

I thought he'd get maybe three or five games per charge, and then maybe it'd be a difficult decision for the club.

我们要等他回来吗？

Do we wait for him to come back?

还是继续往前走？

Do we move on?

因为他明年夏天合同就到期了。

Because he's out of contract next summer.

所以我觉得……

So I I I don't think...

我觉得他挺幸运的，但说实话，我很高兴这事终于结束了。

I I think he's lucky, but I'm pleased that it's all over, if I'm honest.

看起来他们可以继续往前走了。

And it looks like they can move on with everything.

从个人角度来说，我也为他感到高兴，因为他是个很有才华的年轻教练，虽然犯了一些愚蠢的错误。

And I'm pleased for him on a personal level because he is a very talented young coach, and he's made some stupid mistakes.

而且我觉得他已经付出了相当大的代价，即使接下来几周他没有被解雇。

And I think he's paid a fairly hefty price even if it hasn't come in the dugout in the next few weeks.

亚当，我想问问你，你觉得这个案子拖了这么久才结案，时间上的长短和周期，是不是实际上对通达·埃克特有利？

Adam, I just wanted to to touch on whether you think the timing and and the length and period of time it's taken to actually bring this case to a conclusion has actually benefited Tonda Eckert.

因为我觉得如果这件事早点有个结果，可能处罚会更重一些。

Because I think if this had maybe come a little bit sooner, then maybe, you know, the the punishment would have been a little bit harsher.

我显然和你一样，一直在试着翻阅一些信息和文件，想看看他们到底是怎么做出这个决定的。

I think quite clearly, I, like you, have been trying to read through, you know, some of the information and and documentation to see how they actually came to this decision.

感觉他们几乎把所有事情都混在一起处理了。

It does feel very much as though they've almost lumped it all together.

所以这不只是通达·埃克特一个人的问题。

So this isn't just a Tonda Eckert issue.

南安普顿也受到了处罚。

Southampton has been punished.

显然，他被踢出了季后赛，本赛季初还被扣了四分。

Obviously, he got kicked out of the playoffs, got the four points off at the start of this season.

所以这几乎是调查组得出的一个整体结论。

So it's almost like a a collective position that the inquiry have have got to.

我是说，让我们……

I mean, let...

说实话吧。

Let's be honest.

在我看来……

In my...

嗯，在我看来，我觉得英足联做的那个决定，不管你觉得对不对，都是非常……

Well, in my opinion, I think that what the EFL did, whether you think it's right or not, was incredibly...

一个影响巨大的决定，把他们踢出季后赛，这不仅影响了球员、球迷、俱乐部，还有钱，所有的一切。

A massively impactful decision to chuck them out of the playoffs, which affected not only the players, the fans, the club, the money, everything.

我们都知道那件事有多严重。

We know how huge that was.

我觉得英足总或者这个独立委员会，很难不把那些因素考虑进去。

I think it would be hard for the FA or for this independent commission, by the way, to actually not take any of that into account.

你还能因为已经发生的事，对一个俱乐部施加多少惩罚呢？

How much do you keep slamming a club for what's happened?

因为即使这是对个人的处罚，我觉得显然也会影响到俱乐部。

Because even though it's an individual punishment, I think it affects the club, obviously.

这个时间点很有意思，因为在我们这边，大家一直在抱怨拖了这么久，都以为他会禁赛。

The timing is really interesting because down here, we've all been moaning about how long it's taking, expecting he'll get a ban.

然后我就在想，我们马上要迎来德比了。

And then I'm thinking, well, we're coming to the derby.

他会被禁赛的。

He's gonna get a ban.

那谁会在场边指挥呢？

Who's gonna be on the touchline?

圣玛丽球场的气氛会怎么样？

How's the the mood gonna be at Saint Mary's?

肯定会有不确定性。

There's gonna be uncertainty.

他们可能会上诉。

They might appeal.

他们可能不得不让他走人。

They might have to get rid of him.

英足总的这个决定，可能又惹出新的麻烦。

It could have opened up another can of worms, this decision by the FA.

结果呢，事情完全反过来了。

As it happens, it's completely flipped on its head.

距离本赛季第一场德比还有三天，南安普顿全队士气大振，一切都能平静下来了。

And with three days to go until the first derby of the season, everyone at Southampton gets a huge boost, and everything can calm down.

他们可以向前看，争取升级了。

They can look forward and aim for promotion.

所以奇怪的是，我们原本觉得时机不好，现在反而可能变成了好时机。

So weirdly, what we thought was bad with the timing has turned into good timing possibly.

接下来，我想给大家带来一点南安普顿的官方声明。

Just wanna bring you a little bit of the Southampton statement after this.

他们说，希望这能为俱乐部历史上这段遗憾的时期画上句号，并且已经采取了措施，确保类似的判断失误不会再发生在我们俱乐部。

So they say we hope this now brings a conclusion to a regrettable period of our history, and measures have been put in place to ensure that such errors in judgment never happen again at our club.

他们说，我们想借此机会感谢支持者们在整件事过程中给予的无条件支持。

They say we want to take this opportunity to thank the supporters for their unconditional backing throughout this process.

我们的球迷群体是无与伦比的，我们很兴奋能一起朝着光明的未来前进。

Our fan base is unmatched, and we're excited to move forward together towards a bright future.

亚当，今天球迷们跟你说了些什么，南安普顿的球迷们？

Adam, what have the fans been saying to you today, the Southampton fans?

嗯，是的，我们刚刚做了一个小时的节目讨论这件事。

Well, yeah, we just had an hour long show on it.

大多数球迷，圣徒球迷，你知道，足球支持者并不傻。

And the most fans, Saints fans, you know, football supporters aren't stupid.

人们……

People...

他们比任何人都更了解自己的俱乐部，而且他们对足球的了解往往比他们得到的认可要多。

They know their club better than anybody, and they know football very well better than they sometimes get the credit for.

而且大多数人认为他得到了从轻处罚，尽管他们对他留下感到高兴。

And most of them think he's got a lenient sentence even though they're pleased he's staying.

所以球迷们的看法还是挺平衡的。

So there's quite a good balanced view from supporters.

而且从五月开始，随着时间一周周、一个月月过去，有些人的声音在社交媒体上被淹没了。

And there were a number who were getting drowned out on social media as the weeks and months went on from May.

有大量球迷对发生的事情感到非常愤怒，他们认为他应该被解雇。

There was a large amount of fans who were disgusted at what had happened, and they thought he should be sacked.

今晚也有一些人表达了他们的看法。

And some of them had their say tonight as well.

所以我觉得观点是多样的，但最主要的想法是，希望这件事到此为止，我们可以专注于足球赛季，而不是让它一直悬在心头。

So I think there's a varied view, but I think the overriding thought is, hopefully, this is over now, and we can all get on with the football season rather than have it hanging over them.

所以我敢肯定，足球圈里很多人觉得判罚太轻了。

So I'm sure people in football think it's lenient.

我也敢肯定，足球圈里也有不少人从球员之间打电话、球员和球员之间聊天，讨论谁状态好、谁状态不好这些事中受益。

I'm sure there are plenty of people in football also who have benefited from phone calls to players, players to players, chatting about who's fit, who's not all that.

那作弊的界限到底在哪里呢？

Where's the cheating line drawing?

那偷听又怎么说呢？

Where's the spying?

什么……

What...

你的底线在哪里？

What's your levels?

因为我知道你在说什么，Jobi。你说这行当里不兴搞这一套，但咱们得说实话，这事儿确实存在。

Because I I know what you're saying, Jobi, about it's not done in this game, but let's be honest, it is.

确实如此。

It has been.

各支球队都在盯着其他队。

Teams watch other teams.

有些球队通过不正当手段获取信息。

Teams get information the ways they shouldn't.

咱们……

Let...

如果我们认为这种事不会发生，那就太天真了。

We'd be naive to think it doesn't happen.

但这次裁决并没有真正阻止人们以后再去尝试，对吧？

But what hasn't happened here with this ruling is that it hasn't that much put people off trying to do things in the future, has it?

因为它没有为未来树立一个会吓到其他人不敢在违法边缘试探的先例。

Because it hasn't set a precedent for the future, which will scare anybody else from doing anything on the fringe of the law.

我们来说说……

Let's get the...

哦，你说吧，Jobi。

Oh, go on, Jobi.

我得回应一下，因为我觉得我们必须划清界限。

I just gotta come back on that because I do feel we have to draw the line.

你明白吗？

You know?

球员之间、俱乐部之间、队友之间的那些消息，真的像Adam说的那么普遍吗？

I I Is it as widespread as as Adam was saying there in terms of the the the messages between players and between clubs and between teammates?

听我说。

Listen.

我得说实话。

I've gotta be honest.

你知道，从我作为教练或经理的角度来看，我一直努力做到公正、中立，按正确的方式做事。

You know, from my perspective as a coach or or as a manager, you know, I've always tried to be down the line, down the middle, and do things the right way.

就像我说的，听我说。

As I said, listen.

每个人都想占点小便宜。

Everyone trying to get that little edge.

你知道，你……

You know, you...

你是在努力赢一场足球比赛。

You're trying to win a game of football.

我们知道这在当今有多重要。

We know how important that is in in this day and age.

但亚当，这不仅仅是那回事，你知道吗，我必须反驳这一点，因为这里确实有蓄意的行为。

But this is not just that, Adam, you know, and I've got to push back on that because, you know, there's been a concerted effort here.

你知道，这事没有别的解释。

You know, there's no two ways about it.

去观察训练课，获取信息，了解某个球员是否真的能上场，还拿到了另一支球队的监控录像……

To go and observe, you know, training sessions, to gain information, you know, on whether a player is actually gonna be able to participate in the game, you know, receiving CCTV footage of another team's...

我是说，这种事已经发生过多次了。

I mean, this is multiple occasions that this has happened.

至于那种“哦，大家都这么做”的说法……

And the argument that, oh, you know, everybody does it...

对我来说站不住脚。

That doesn't wash for me.

非常抱歉。

I'm very sorry.

我觉得任何参与过这项运动的人……

I think anyone who's been involved in the game...

但这并不是说，如果你认识某个球员，他曾经在某个特定的……

And that is not to say things don't happen if you know a player that's played for a particular...

俱乐部踢过球，你可能想知道他会不会上场，或者……

A club and you might wanna find out if he might be playing himself or...

但是，你知道，我不会到处打电话问别人，嘿，把下周的阵容告诉我。

But, you know, I'm not ringing around people saying, oh, give me the team for next week.

而且现在，有时候，大家之间又有一种默契，就是在这种事情上，有一条线是不能越过的。

And now there's almost, again, at times, a a little code amongst yourself of, like, there's a line that you don't cross when it comes to that sort of stuff.

而且，我在国外也踢过很多球。

And again, I've played a lot, you know, abroad.

我去过中美洲。

So I've gone to Central America.

我去过南美洲踢球。

I've gone to South America to play.

而且，在那里，这种事情可能在文化上更容易被接受。

And again, it might be more culturally acceptable there.

我知道他是这么说的，他在其他国家工作时的辩解就是这样。

I know that's what he said, you know, his defense with other countries that he's worked at.

但我要告诉你，这里有很多教练、球员和经理会反驳这一点，他们会说，我个人认为这次确实越界了。

But I would tell you now, there are a lot of managers here, coaches, players that would push back on that, you know, and say, I personally think on this occasion, there was a big line crossed.

这不止一次事件。

It's a number of incidents.

谁知道那是不是全部呢？

Who's to say that was all it was?

我知道他们只被认定有这些行为。

I know that's all they've been found guilty for.

所以这没问题，但对我来说，这已经足够说明惩罚应该更重一些。

So that's fine, but that's enough for me to say there should have been more of a punishment than there was.

我想听听米德尔斯堡球迷的看法。

I wanna get the perspective of a Middlesbrough fan.

我们正在和一位米德尔斯堡球迷交谈，因为他们是最先发现间谍行为的俱乐部，就在他们与南安普顿的英冠附加赛前48小时。

We're talking to a Middlesbrough supporter because they were the club to to uncover the spying in in the first place, forty eight hours before their championship playoff fixture against Southampton.

那我们请到《Fly Me To The Moon》球迷杂志的罗伯特·尼科尔斯来聊聊。

So let's speak to, Robert Nichols from the Fly Me To The Moon fanzine.

他是主编。

He's the editor.

罗伯特，你对这个结果有什么看法？

So, Robert, what are your thoughts on on this outcome then?

你觉得唐达·埃克特这次是不是罚得太轻了？

Do you think he's he's gone off lightly here, Tonda Eckert?

绝对是。

He definitely has.

过了这么久，我挺惊讶的。

I'm pretty surprised after all this time.

我不是……

I'm not...

我并不是说……

I don't hold sort of...

我对南安普顿或者通达并没有怨恨，但我觉得就像刚才说的那样，在数据如此重要的时代，派人躲在树后面去收集数据，这真的越界了。

I'm not bitter towards Southampton or Tonda, but I feel just as was just said there that this is crossing a line in in in a day and age where data is so important to actually send somebody to hide behind a tree to collect that data.

我觉得这……

I I think it...

这给足球界传递了一个非常不好的信号，因为……

This does not send out the the the the right message to football because it...

我们……

We...

我觉得当我们……

I think when we...

在附加赛决赛的时候，那个……

When it's that playoff final, the the...

我们的主教练金·赫尔伯格当时……

Our manager, Kim Helberg, was...

我从来没见过他那样。

I've never seen him like that before.

他当时完全被恶心到了，我们也没有表现出应有的水平。

He was just totally sickened, and we didn't give a good account of ourselves.

我们得到了第二次机会，但心理上他们不在状态，因为他们以前从未经历过这种事。

We got a second chance, but mentally, they weren't there because they just never never experienced anything like it before.

米德尔斯堡球迷现在对这件事还有多少愤怒？

How much anger how much anger is there still amongst the Middlesbrough fan base about all this?

我觉得还有很多愤怒，因为……

I think there's still a lot of anger around be...

因为那……

Because it was...

感觉好像南安普顿才是受害者。

It it feels as if Southampton are the victims.

感觉是我们指责了他们，而且我们……

The feeling is that we've accused them and that we...

是我们设了局，然后从中获利。

That we've set them up and that we gained from it.

但我们其实已经非常……

But we're sort of into very much...

我们被一位非常注重体育精神的董事长所带领。

We've driven by a chairman who's very much into the the the sporting ethos.

而且作为俱乐部，那……

And and as a club, that...

这就是我们努力的方向。

That's what we try to do.

而关于去那儿的那整件事……

And the the whole thing around going to this...

当我们去南安普顿打第二回合时，我们一直和南安普顿保持着友好的关系，他们就像一个大家庭式的俱乐部，等等。

When we went to Southampton for the second leg, we always had, like, friendly relations with Southampton as as a great sort of family club, etcetera.

我们去那儿打第二回合。

We went down there for that second leg.

那里的气氛糟透了。

The atmosphere was appalling.

那整个事情真的让人很不舒服，整个经历都让人挺恶心的。

It really was the the the whole thing about it, and the the whole experience was was quite sickening.

我觉得我们向前看是好事，因为我们不想结仇，但我真的很惊讶，这件事没有被认真对待，我觉得它应该被认真对待的。

And I I think it's good that we're moving on because we don't we don't want a feud, but I am very, very surprised that it hasn't been treated as seriously as as I feel it should be.

罗伯特，非常感谢你来做客。

Robert, thank you very much for joining us.

我们收到了一些关于这个话题的短信。

We've had some text in on this subject.

南安普顿的大卫说，关于通达的消息真是太好了。

David in Southampton says excellent news about Tonda.

如果禁赛时间太长，对我们来说就太苛刻了。

A lengthy ban would have been harsh on us.

球迷们都很高兴。

The fans were all glad.

这件事在周末我们对阵朴茨茅斯的比赛前解决了。

It's been sorted before our game against Pompey this weekend.

还有西莫斯说，南安普顿的主教练只被禁赛缓期执行，而西布朗的球员却因为手球被禁赛更久。

And Seamus says, the Southampton manager gets away with a suspended ban while West Brom's player was banned for longer for a handball.

他指的是本赛季早些时候厄纳·赫格伯勒的手球进球。

He's referring to Erna Hegebrough's handball, goal earlier this season.

这看起来不太对劲。

It doesn't seem right.

他说，英足总跟往常一样，似乎没有正确理解大家的想法。

The FA, he says, as usual, don't seem to read the room properly.

亚当，最后简单说说你的看法。

Adam, final thought from you just quickly.

你说这划清了界限。

You said it draws the line.

真的划清界限了吗？

Does it really draw the line?

我知道损失已经造成了，丢了四分，没能进附加赛决赛，但这件事对南安普顿未来的声誉造成了多大损害？

I I know the damage has been done with the four points, not getting to the playoff final, but how much damage has this done to the reputation of Southampton going forward?

我之前就说过这话。

And I and I said that before.

我的意思是，我觉得五月份的时候所有相关的人都应该被解雇，因为我觉得……

I mean, I think everybody involved should have been fired back in May because I think it...

你知道吗，如果你现在问人们提到南安普顿足球俱乐部会想到什么，他们想到的就是这件事。

You know, if you now ask people what they associate with Southampton Football Club, it'll be this.

在很多球迷眼里，这是不可接受的。

And and that's unacceptable in a lot of fans' eyes.

所以我觉得已经造成了很大的伤害。

And so I think that a lot of damage has been done.

不过，这件事确实给这个赛季画上了句号，至少不用再担心会发生什么了，而且这件事已经困扰我们很久了，都五个月了。

This does draw a line under the season, though, with regards to the not knowing what's gonna go on, and it has been hanging over us a long time, five months now.

所以就我个人而言，我很高兴这一切终于结束了。

So I'm glad personally it's all over.

我……

I'm...

我觉得球迷会这么想的。

I think the fans will be.

我认为世界上总该有个地方，让人们能承认错误、请求原谅，并像他那样去自我教育。

And I think there has to be some place in the world when people admit guilt and ask for forgiveness and educate themselves like he's done.

对于他们的回应，我觉得大家应该觉得可以接受。

I think there has to be some place for them for the response to be on the okay.

应该是从中吸取教训，而不是把他往死里整。

Learn your lesson rather than hammering him into the ground.

所以从个人角度来说，我为他感到高兴，就像我之前说的。

So I'm I'm pleased for him on a personal level, like I said.

他是个幸运儿，但现在南安普顿的球迷会说，我们知道该往哪走了。

He's a lucky boy, but now Sampton fans will be saying, we know where we're going.

我们有了阵容。

We've got our squad.

我们也有了主教练。

We've got our manager.

我们可以专注于争取晋级，而不是让这件事在整个赛季剩下的时间里一直压在我们头上。

We can focus on trying to get promotion rather than having this cloud hanging over us the rest of the season.

亚当·布莱克摩尔，乔比·麦卡纳夫，非常感谢你们。

Adam Blackmore, Jobi McAnuff, thank you very much.

周日比赛愉快。

Enjoy the game on Sunday.

那场比赛的气氛一定会很热烈。

It's gonna be some atmosphere for that game.

这就是本期《足球日报》特别节目的全部内容。

That is it for this bonus episode of The Football Daily.

感谢收听。

Thanks for listening.

我是史蒂夫·布拉克内尔，周日联赛劲旅皇家橡树足球俱乐部的助理教练。

I'm Steve Bracknell, assistant manager of Sunday League powerhouses, the Royal Oak FC.

我回到了皇家橡树的更衣室，开启《消逝的比赛》新一季，这档播客带你回到足球的草根层面，和我一起的还有我的同事保罗·桑普森和鲍勃·布金。

And I'm back in changing room at Royal Oak for a new season of Games Gone, the podcast that takes you back to the grassroots of the game with my colleague Paul Sampson and Bob the booking.

这个赛季，我们的目标是升级到谢菲尔德周日帝国联赛的D组。

And this season, we're aiming for promotion to division d of the Sheffield Sunday Imperial League.

《Games Gone》，史蒂夫·布拉德内尔的播客节目。

Games gone, the Steve Bradnell podcast.

请在BBC Sounds上收听。

Listen on BBC Sounds.

先快速回顾一下夏天的情况。

So quick summer recap.

热浪、数据泄露、AI黑客攻击、折叠屏手机，还有终于被挑战的浣熊病毒。

Heat waves, data leaks, AI hacks, folding phones, and a virus finally challenged raccoon.

我觉得这就差不多了。

I think that covers it.

我是托马斯·杰曼。

I'm Thomas Germain.

我是杰斯·马多克斯，《The Verge》播客在休完暑假后回归了。

I'm Jess Maddox, and the interface is back from its summer break.

新一季，新搭档，还是同样深入探讨那些塑造我们世界和生活的科技。

New season, new cohost, same deep dives into the tech that's shaping our world and our lives.

所以在AI消灭全人类之前

So before AI wipes out all of humanity

据说是这样。

Allegedly.

来

Join

和我们一起收听《The Interface》。

us for the interface.

可以在BBC官网收听，或者在你常用的播客平台上收听。

Listen on BBC dot com or wherever you get your podcasts.

你好。

Hello.

我是Delith Lloyd。

I'm Delith Lloyd.

与此同时，曼城正在提出上诉，因为他们被认定在九年内违反了英超联赛财务规定的各项指控。

And with Manchester City appealing after they were found guilty of all charges relating to breaches of the Premier League's financial regulations across a nine year period.

在《比分之外》最新一期节目中，我们将探讨这起案件可能对赛事本身产生怎样的影响，以及它在历史上最大的体育丑闻中排名如何？

On the latest episode of More Than the Score, we're asking what impact could the case have on the competition itself, and where does it rank amongst the biggest sporting scandals of all time?

现在就开始收听。

Listen now.

在你收听BBC播客的任何地方，搜索更多内容，而不仅仅是比分。

Search for more than the score wherever you get your BBC podcasts.