#426 痴迷如何塑造了克里斯托弗·诺兰

他就说，正是在‘熄灯’之后的某次深夜冥想中，《盗梦空间》的构想第一次成形了。

And so he says, was during one of these late night sessions after Lights Out that the idea for Inception first took shape.

他描述了那个过程。

And he talk he describes it.

他说，共享梦境这个点子是个起点，还有用音乐、在别人做梦时播放音乐，以及想到如果给睡着的人放音乐，它会以某种奇妙的方式被感知。

He says the idea of sharing a dream, that was a jumping off point, and the use of music or playing music outside someone dreaming, and the idea that if you played music to somebody who was asleep, that it would translate in some interesting way.

我大概十六岁的时候，就已经有了几个后来融入《盗梦空间》的想法。

I really did come up with a couple ideas that went into inception when I was about 16.

这部电影酝酿了非常久。

The film was a very long time in coming.

我说是十年。

I said it was ten years.

其实可能有二十年左右。

It was probably more like twenty.

这个念头我一直在脑子里盘桓了很长时间。

It was something I was thinking about for a very, very long time.

我的意思是，我觉得我一直都在聊爱德温·兰德的事。

I mean, I think it's what I know I've been talking about Edwin Land a lot.

我得再做一期关于他的内容，估计是这样。

I gotta do another episode on him, I guess.

但我觉得他在1946年左右就想出了即时成像相机的点子。

But I think he came up with the idea for the instant photography camera somewhere in the, let's say, 1946.

等它真正做出来，尺寸也达标了，还能拍彩色照片，大概已经是1973年了。

And by the time it was fully finished and it was the size he wanted and it could do color, think it was like 1973.

所以，他为同一个想法折腾了整整三十年。

So it's like thirty years of working on the same idea.

再回头说说史蒂夫·乔布斯。

Go back to Steve Jobs.

乔布斯在八十年代就经常说起要造一台手持电脑。

Steve Jobs would talk about in the nineteen eighties about having a handheld computer.

当你读到他在八十年代想象中的那些东西，想想看，iPad后来是2009年左右才推出的吧？

And when you read about what he's imagining and what he's envisioning that he could accomplish one day in the 1980s, remember I think the iPad came out what, 2009, something like that?

听起来简直就跟iPad一模一样。

Sounds hella lot like an iPad.

在iPad出现之前的四十年，他就已经想到了iPad。

Forty years before there were iPads, iPads.

我特别喜欢这个想法——想法可以在你脑子里静静待着。

So I just love this idea of the find the idea that ideas can just like sit in your mind.

你只需要耐心等一等，就这么简单。

And you just have to kinda, you know, just wait.

你还不知道怎么把它做出来。

You don't know how to make the thing yet.

但你今天脑子里的想法，十五年、二十年、三十年后照样能用上。

But you can use the ideas you have today fifteen, twenty, thirty years from now.

故事发展到这儿，诺兰上大学了，其实也没怎么好好上学。

So this point of the story, now Nolan is in college, going to college, kinda doesn't even go to college.

他是电影电视社的社长。

He is the president of the Film and TV Society.

明白吗？

Okay?

他大部分本该在上课的时间，都待在一间没有窗户、隔音的地下室里。

And he spends much of the time that he's supposed to be in college in this windowless, soundproof basement.

他们说，那 basically 就是他的办公室。

They said it was essentially his office.

那他在干什么呢？

And what is he doing?

在伦敦大学学院读书时，他干脆自己设计了一套学习计划。

At when he's at the University of College College London, he essentially creates his own curriculum.

他把绝大多数时间都花在电影电视社，一边实践，一边学习他早就想从事的工作。

He spent most of his time in the film and TV society and he's practicing learning the job that he already knew that he wanted.

我干嘛还要那么认真地上那些别的课呢？

What's the point of me going and and taking these other classes very seriously?

书里提到过一段特别精彩的对话，好像是他的文学教授对他说：喂。

He there was this great discussion in the book where one of his I think it's a literature professor is like, hey.

我看出来你对电影特别着迷。

I can see you're obsessed with with movies.

我希望你能把对电影的这份痴迷，同样用在读书上。

What I need you to do is that same obsession that you have for movies, I need you to have that same obsession for the books.

诺兰说，这根本不可能发生。

And Nolan's like, I just know that will never happen.

他早就知道自己想做什么，所以干脆自己设计课程，充分利用这段时间，真正搞清楚该怎么拍电影。

So he knew the job what he already wanted, so he's like, just gonna build my own curriculum and use this time, make the most use of my time, and actually learn how the hell do I make a movie.

他说自己大部分时间都泡在电影电视社的地下室里，亲手学习怎么操作摄像机、怎么剪辑、怎么手工剪接胶片，还有怎么对音。

So So he said he did spend most of his time in the basement of the film and TV society, learning firsthand how to operate cameras, how to edit, how to cut film by hand, and how to sync sound.

我们在大学三年里拍了不少短片，运营电影社，筹钱拍更多片子。

We spent three years in college making short films, running the film society, raising money to make more films.

整个团队都是学生自己主导的。

It was student led.

我从中学到了大量关于如何剪辑影片的技巧。

I learned a huge amount about the craft of putting films together.

那真是一段很棒的学习经历。

It was a great education.

在继续之前，我想跟你们聊聊Applovin。

And before we get back into this, I wanna tell you about Applovin.

我最喜欢的一句话出自《从零到一》这本书。

One of my all time favorite quotes is from the book Zero to One.

书中，彼得·蒂尔写道：

In that book, Peter Thiel writes.

他说，我观察到最强大的模式是，成功的人总能在意想不到的地方发现价值，因为他们用第一性原理思考商业，而不是照搬公式。

He says, the single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places, and they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas.

Applovin正是这样做了，他们在广告平台上做到了这一点。

And that is exactly what Applovin has done with their advertising platform.

Applovin能帮你触达超过十亿潜在的移动游戏玩家。

Applovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers in mobile games.

Applovin让你能抓住用户的全部注意力。

Applovin allows you to capture undivided attention.

Applovin的广告是全屏视频，平均观看时长达到三十五秒。

Applovin ads are full screen videos that are watched for an average of thirty five seconds.

这种用户留存率远超其他广告平台，而且你几分钟内就能上线Applovin。

That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water and you can launch on Applovin in minutes.

你设定目标，Applovin负责帮你实现。

You set the goal and Applovin achieves it.

不需要复杂设置，也不用专业技能，Applovin的投放效率很高。

No complex setup, no expertise needed and Applovin scales quickly.

他们能把你的广告推给超过十亿潜在用户。

They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers.

不少企业上线后立刻见效，日均投放高达数十万美元，收入增长数百万。

Other businesses have seen immediate results scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars spend per day and increased their revenue by millions.

所以你得赶紧行动，别等竞争对手都上了Applovin才后悔。

So you wanna get started quickly before all of your competitors are on Applovin.

现在就去applovin.com注册吧。

And you can do that by going to applovin.com.

这就是 applovin.com。

That's applovin.com.

接下来我想跟你们说说 Vanta。

And then I want to tell you about Vanta.

Vanta。

Vanta.

Vanta。

Vanta.

Vanta。

Vanta.

Vanta 能帮你的公司证明安全性，让更多的客户愿意使用你的产品或服务。

Vanta helps your company prove you're secure so more customers will use your product or service.

Vanta 是一个由人工智能驱动的安全专家，能随着你一起成长。

Vanta is an AI powered security expert that scales with you.

你的业务越壮大，安全需求就越复杂，而这种复杂性往往会演变成一团乱麻。

The more your business grows, the more complex your security needs get, and that complexity turns into chaos.

Vanta 能帮你把这种混乱收拾得井井有条。

Vanta tames that chaos for you.

Vanta 自动处理合规事务，持续监控你的安全措施，并为你提供统一的合规与风险信息源。

Vanta automates compliance, continuously monitors your controls, and gives you a single source of truth for compliance and risk.

无论你是快速成长的初创公司，还是大型企业，Vanta 都能无缝融入你现有的工作流程。

So whether you're a fast growing startup or an enterprise company, Vanta fits easily into your existing workflows.

很多公司如果没有认证，就不愿意签合同，这让你白白错失了销售机会。

Many companies won't sign contracts unless you're certified, and this is causing you to lose out on sales.

正因如此，大多数使用 Vanta 的客户在使用后，投资回报率平均达到了 526%。

That is why the average Vanta customer reports a 526% return on investment after becoming a Vanta customer.

用 Vanta 自动化你的合规、安全和信任管理。

Automate your compliance, security, and trust with Vanta.

Vanta 能帮你更快、更省力地赢得客户信任、促成交易、保障安全。

Vanta will help you win trust, close deals, and stay secure faster and with less effort.

访问 vanta.com/founders，立减一千美元。

Go to vanta.com/founders, and you'll get a thousand dollars off.

这就是 vanta.com/founders。

That is vanta.com/founders.

再往后翻几页，就只有一行字。

And then a few pages later, there's just one line.

我觉得他这次说的还是电影人。

Again, I think he's talking about filmmakers.

我觉得最出色的创业者都有这种特质。

I think the best founders have this.

你得有自己鲜明的见解。

You have a distinct point of view.

就像我们上周聊的，搞一个毫无特色的普通生意，到底图啥？

You're what we talked about last week, what is the point of building an undifferentiated commodity business?

你得有自己独特的声音。

You should have something unique to say.

你得对这个世界有新的看法。

You should have a new take on the world.

所以他提到，作为电影人，你做的每一件事都关乎一种独特的视角。

And so he says everything you do as a filmmaker is about a point of view.

我觉得最出色的创业者也是一样。

I think the best founders obviously have the same thing.

我桌上贴着一张便利贴，就在眼前，上面写着史蒂夫·乔布斯的观点，用三个词概括就是：极致出色的产品。

I had this sticky note that's on my desk right in front of me, and it's just, well, it's the point of view of Steve Jobs summarized in three words, insanely great products.

那就是他的信念。

That was his point of view.

所以他大学毕业后的第一份工作，其实是为大公司拍视频。

So his first job out of college is actually making videos for large corporations.

据说毕业后，诺兰申请了英国国家电影电视学院和皇家艺术学院，但都被拒绝了。

Says after graduating, Nolan had applied to and was turned down by the National Film and Television School in England and the Royal College of Art.

但他很快就在一家小型视频公司找到了工作，担任摄像师，为大公司制作企业宣传片和媒体培训视频。

But he immediately found work as a camera operator in a small video shop, turning out corporate videos and media training videos for large corporations.

这一点非常关键。

This is really important.

因为这样一来，我们就意识到他将会无比坚韧地寻找解决方案。

Because then we start hitting on the fact that he is going to be relentlessly resourceful.

我跟你说的这些想法，都会像他电影里的剧情一样，环环相扣。

All these ideas I'm discussing with you will fit together just like the plots in a lot of his movies.

他之所以这么坚韧，是因为他极度渴望掌控一切，这点我们马上就会谈到。

The relentless resourcefulness is because he's going to be obsessed with control, which we'll get to in a minute.

但真正有趣的是这一点。

But this is what's fascinating.

你到底有多想要做成这件事？

It's like how bad do you actually want it?

他在全职工作的同时，利用周末拍出了自己的第一部电影。

He made his first movie on the weekends while working a full time job.

他说，写剧本的时候，他想的是：没有资源的情况下，我只能靠一台摄像机和东拼西凑的钱，能做点什么？

So he says, the script was written with a view of what can I do with really no resources just with the camera and scraping together money?

他用打字机写完了剧本。

He wrote the script on a typewriter.

他们干脆用摄像师的奖金，只在周末拍摄，持续了将近一年。

They decided simply to use the bonus from his cameraman job and shoot the film only on weekends for almost a year.

每场戏都得仔细排练，像演话剧一样，争取一两遍就拍过。

They had to rehearse each scene carefully, almost like a play so they could shoot it in one or two takes.

算下来，他们每周能拍并处理十到十五分钟的素材。

Working out, they could afford to shoot and process between ten to fifteen minutes of footage a week.

每个周末，大家都会挤进一辆出租车的后座，去他们好不容易找来的拍摄地点。

Every weekend, everyone would squeeze into the back of a taxi and head to whatever location they'd been able to scrounge up.

他们拍戏根本没申请许可。

They shot without permits.

诺兰亲自操机拍摄。

Nolan operated the camera himself.

所以，我真的特别喜欢这个想法。

And so again, I just love this idea.

就是说，我在社交媒体上有个目标，我定了这么个目标。

It's like, well, on this social, I have this goal that I have.

嗯，我也得吃饭啊。

Well, I also need to to eat.

我没钱，所以平时得上班，周末再去追我的梦想。

And I don't have any money, so I'm gonna work during the week, and then at the weekend, I'm gonna chase my dreams.

要是我全职干这事，也许两个月就能把这部电影拍完。

And okay, maybe if I was working on this full time, I could do this this movie in two months.

但我得花上一整年。

But it's gonna take me a year.

那就这样吧。

So so be it.

事情本来就会是这样。

That's what it's gonna do.

我喜欢用打字机这个点子。

And I love this idea of doing a typewriter.

他又回到了那个模拟世界。

He, again, goes back to this analog world.

我最喜欢的小说作家之一是科马克·麦卡锡。

One of my favorite fiction authors is Cormac McCarthy.

我最喜欢的一件事，就是关于我最欣赏的这位作家——科马克·麦卡锡花五十美元买了一台打字机。

And one of my favorite facts about one of my favorite fiction authors is the fact that Cormac McCarthy bought a typewriter for $50.

他用这台打字机写了五十年，总共敲出了五百多万字。

He used that typewriter for fifty years and wrote 5,000,000 words on that typewriter.

关键不在工具。

It's not it's not the tools.

关键在人。

It's it's the it's the person.

关键在才华。

It's the talent.

克里斯托弗·诺兰的工作方式也很特别，我就特别欣赏这种理念。

And this is what, again, Christopher Nolan has a very unique way of working, but I just love that idea.

想想《血色子午线》，或者《路》，还有麦卡锡那些了不起的作品，全都是靠一双的手，用一台五十美元的打字机写出来的。

It's like, think about Blood Meridian, if you've it, or The Road, or any of Cormac McCarthy's one of the incredible books that came from hands on a $50 typewriter.

这简直太不可思议了。

It's absolutely incredible.

同样令人惊讶的是，他当年为自己的第一部电影写了原始剧本。

Same again to the fact that he goes to time, and he had written the original for his first movie.

他先把剧本按时间顺序写完，然后再重新调整了场景的顺序。

He wrote that script in chronological order, and then he rearranged the order of the scenes.

他一直很欣赏昆汀·塔伦蒂诺的叙事方式。

And so he was a fan of Quentin Tarantino's time.

他说自己的创作深受《低俗小说》的影响。

He says it was heavily influenced by Reservoir Dogs.

所以我特别想看看塔伦蒂诺后来的作品会是什么样子。

So I was very interested to see what Tarantino had done for his follow-up.

他说，如果你对比《低俗小说》和《公民凯恩》，就会明白，但凡能登上行业顶峰的人，脑子里都有一整套历史作品的数据库，随时可以调用。

And so he says if you look at Pulp Fiction and Citizen Kane so, again, anybody who gets to the top of their profession is gonna have this historical database of knowledge in their head that they're gonna they're gonna draw from.

所以他不断引用那些早在五十年前、六十年前就拍出来的电影。

So he's constantly referencing these movies, in some cases, that were made fifty years, sixty years in the past.

它们在结构上有不少相似之处。

They have a lot of similarities in terms of their structure.

在其他媒介里，从没这么坚持非得按时间顺序交代信息。

In no other media is there this insistence that information be introduced chronologically.

那为什么我的第一部电影就得按时间顺序来呢？

So he's like, so why should it be introduced chronologically in my very first film?

所以他先按时间顺序写剧本，然后再剪开，把场景重新排列。

So, again, he writes the script in chronological order, then he cuts it up and literally rearranges the orders of the scene.

他说自己反对那种时间顺序上的保守做法，我觉得这说法挺有意思的。

And he he says he rejects chronological conservatism, which I thought was a funny term.

他说，我们平时聊天也不会按时间顺序来。

He says we don't tend to have chronological conversations either.

东一榔头西一棒子，想到哪说到哪。

They go all over the place.

所以他说，凭什么我就得期待电影非得按时间顺序来呢？

So again, he's just saying, okay, well, why am I expecting it?

他认为这是电视的影响。

And he thinks it's of TV.

电视总是按时间顺序呈现内容，这种做法影响了电影创作。

TV presents things in more of a chronological order that influence filmmaking.

但如果你回看过去的电影，其实早就摒弃了这种时间顺序的束缚。

But if you go back in the films of the past, kind of reject that chronological conservatism.

想想你读过的书。

Think about the the books you read.

它们并不是按时间顺序写的。

They're not in chronological order.

你平时的对话也从来不是按时间顺序来的。

Conversations you have are not in chronological order.

所以我的电影也没必要非得按时间顺序来。

So I don't my movie shouldn't have to be either.

而且我特别喜欢这个想法。

And then I just love this idea.

我总是会想，一个人的生活环境是怎样的。

I always think about, like, a person's setup.

比如，他的生活状态到底是什么样的？

Like, what is their setup?

他的家庭生活和工作之间有什么关系？

Like, what is their home life like in relation to their work?

上周我刚做了关于商人银行家的那一集，书里有个角色我觉得特别有意思。

I just did this episode last week on the merchant bankers, and there was one guy in the book that I thought was interesting.

好像是个意大利人，他家里既有住宅，其实是个公寓，还兼着一家商人银行和一家出版社。

I think it was an Italian guy, and he had a house or, actually, an apartment, merchant bank, and a publishing house.

而且这些地方都在同一条街上。

And it's like on the street.

你看，他不光在同一街上，还在同侧，就为了不用过马路。

See, not only was he on the same street, he was on the same side of the street just so he wouldn't have to cross the street.

所以对克里斯托弗·诺兰来说，他在洛杉矶有一套房子。

And so in Christopher Nolan's case, he's got a house in Los Angeles.

明白吗？

Okay?

所以书中提到，他在洛杉矶的家，和后院尽头一座几乎一模一样的房子是同一个生产设施。

So it says his home in Los Angeles and the production facility that sits in a nearly identical residence at the end of his garden.

这两栋房子背靠背，位于同一街区的两侧，就像镜像一样，像是租客住的那种布局。

So the two residences sit back to back on opposite sides of the same block, like mirror images of each other, like a tenant.

他每天从自己家出门，穿过自家后院，走到另一栋房子的后院——那其实就是他的制片办公室。

Come by, so he's in his house and then to commute to his work, he has to walk through the the backyard of his house to the backyard of his other house which is then his production facility.

据说，他从家到工作地点的通勤时间不到一分钟。

And it says his commute between his home and his work can be completed in under one minute.

所以，27岁的克里斯托弗·诺兰，他的第一部电影《追随》后来催生了《记忆碎片》。我之所以读这段，是因为我相信，把眼前的机会做到极致，才会打开未来你根本想不到的新机会。

And so here's Christopher Nolan at twenty seven years old, his first movie Following is going to lead to Memento, and really the reason I'm reading this paragraph is because I think doing the best job you can with the opportunities in front of you is going to lead to opportunities in the future you can't possibly predict.

当时他的一位朋友这样描述27岁的克里斯托弗·诺兰。

And so there this other friend of his at the time is describing Christopher Nolan when Christopher Nolan was 27.

他没有因为被电影学院拒绝而气馁，反而立刻投入到一部新电影的创意中。

Rather than being discouraged by his rejection from his film school, he was hot on a new idea for a movie.

一个男人失去了短期记忆，通过在身上纹身留下线索，像纪念品一样，试图查出妻子被杀的真相。

The story of a guy who loses his short term memory and tries to solve the murder of his wife by tattooing clues on his body like little mementos.

克里斯还希望把这个故事倒着讲。

Chris also wanted to tell the story backward.

他说这非常关键。

That was very important he said.

我一开始没想明白，但当你身边有这样的人，你就会慢慢信了。

I couldn't quite see it, but when you're around someone who does, you start to believe it.

你当然可以因为被拒绝而沮丧、消沉，但正是这次拒绝，让他想到了下一个点子——这其实也正好呼应了我们今天一开始聊的话题。

Again, you could, you know, be sad or depressed that you got rejected from what you thought you wanted to do, that leads him to this next idea, which again, how we started the conversation today.

《记忆碎片》成了他职业生涯真正起飞的转折点。

Memento is what causes his his the new, like, near vertical ascent of his career.

所以他在2000年带着《记忆碎片》首映于威尼斯电影节，并描述了自己人生的转折时刻，我特别喜欢这段话。

So he actually, in the year 2000, debuts Memento at the Venice Film Festival and he describes the turning point of his life, which I absolutely love.

他说，我的电影总是以某种突如其来的高潮收尾。

So he says, my films always end the same way with some sort of sudden flourish.

剧情一步步推向那个时刻，然后电影突然结束了。

It's building to that moment and then the film ends very abruptly.

好几秒钟，全场一片寂静。

And for a few seconds, everyone was completely silent.

我心里一沉：坏了。

I thought, oh, no.

他们肯定不喜欢。

They hate it.

那几秒钟里，我完全不知道接下来会发生什么。

There were a couple seconds where literally I had no idea what was about to happen.

我吓坏了。

I was very frightened.

紧接着，全场起立鼓掌，掌声雷动。

And then there was an enormous standing ovation and everything.

简直太不可思议了。

It was extraordinary.

那是我人生的转折点。

It was the turning point of my life.

每一章都详细讲述了他们是如何制作每部电影的。

And so each chapter goes into great detail of how they make each movie.

关于《记忆碎片》的这一章，显然就是我们现在所在的这一章。

The chapter on Memento is obviously the one we're in.

那里只有一句话。

There's just one line from there.

我觉得这些话能让你看清，我们谈论的这个人到底是谁——一个如此独特的人。

Again, I think these lines give you an insight into who this is who this person this unique person that we're talking about is.

他嘴上说的是《记忆碎片》，实际上谈的是他自己在生活中真正相信的东西。

He's talking about Memento, but he's really talking about what he believes in real life.

我觉得这其实反映了他的一种信念：这个世界远比我们能理解的要深奥得多，远比表面看到的要复杂。

And I think this goes back to the fact that he just feels that there's way more to the world than we can understand, there's way more to the world than meets the eye.

他说，想到连自己的脑子都靠不住，就觉得特别毛骨悚然。

He says, I find the idea of not being able to trust your own mind very creepy.

所以为了拍下一部电影，克里斯托弗·诺兰不得不请一位年长且更有经验的导演帮忙。

And so for the next movie to be made, Christopher Nolan actually had to have the help of an older, more experienced director.

他打算拍一部叫《失眠症》的电影。

So he's going to make this movie called Insomnia.

另一位导演史蒂文·索德伯格说，正是史蒂文让《失眠症》最终得以拍成。

And another director called Steven Soddenberg, he says Steven was the one that basically got Insomnia made.

当时诺兰四处奔波，想向几家大制片厂推销自己的项目，连面都见不上。

At the time, Nolan's going around and trying to pitch his movie to a bunch of major studios, and he couldn't even get meetings.

史蒂文·索德伯格听说诺兰连华纳兄弟的高管都约不上，直接跨过整个片场，找到制片主管，说：‘你要是不见这小子，那才真是疯了。’

And so Steven Soderbergh, upon hearing of Nolan's difficulties getting a meeting with the executives of Warner Brothers, marched across the lot to the head of production and told him, you're insane if you don't meet with this guy.

他还主动提出和乔治·克鲁尼一起担任《失眠症》的制片人，为当时才31岁的诺兰背书。

He even offered to executive produce Insomnia himself along with George Clooney by the way of guaranteeing the then 31 year old director, which is Christopher Nolan.

克里斯托弗·诺兰说，史蒂文根本没必要这么做，但他还是做了。

And Christopher Nolan says, Steven didn't have to do that, but he did.

他和乔治最终成了《失眠症》的制片人。

He and George became the executive producers of Insomnia.

这成了克里斯托弗·诺兰人生中的另一个重要转折点，从这时起，他开始学会如何在制片厂体系中运作，如何与大公司合作。

And this was another very important turning point of Christopher Nolan's life because then he starts to learn how to operate within the studio system, how to work with the big studios.

我觉得接下来发生的事，以及诺兰处理工作的态度，恰恰说明了：限制能激发创造力，而创造力又能帮你保住主导权。

The way I would describe what's about to happen this with this and the way Christopher Nolan approaches work is that constraints breed resourcefulness, and then resourcefulness helps you maintain control.

到拍摄结束时，他学到了一个关于为制片厂工作的关键教训。

By the end of the production, he had learned an important lesson about working for the studios.

他是这么说的：

This is what he said.

拍电影的效率，对我来说，是保持掌控力的一种方式。

The efficiency of filmmaking is for me a way to keep of keeping control.

时间的压力、预算的压力，

The pressure of time, the pressure of money.

虽然当时觉得这些是束缚，让人很憋屈，但它们其实是在帮你做决定。

Even though they feel like restrictions at the time and you chafe against them, they're helping you make decisions.

真的就是这样。

They really are.

如果能做到这样，那就太好了。

If I this is great.

只要我知道截止日期就在那儿，我的创作效率就会成倍提升。

If I know that deadline is there, then my creative process ramps up exponentially.

在拍电影这件事上，创作自主权对我来说至关重要。

Creative power in filmmaking is very important to me.

我非常珍惜这份自主权，而我能通过节省开支、加快节奏来获得它——不让任何人有理由来找我、干涉或抱怨。

I'm very protective of it, But I can get my power from spending less and moving faster, not giving anybody a reason to come and visit me and interfere or complain.

我早在职业生涯初期就做出了这个决定。

I made that decision very early in my career.

只要我能比别人预期的更快一点、更省钱一点，他们就会放手让我自己做主。

If I can work a little bit faster than people expect, if I can work a little bit cheaper than people expect, then they'll let me do my thing.

限制催生创造力。

Again, constraints breed resourcefulness.

而创造力能帮助他保持掌控力。

Resourcefulness helps him maintain control.

所以这些经历让你明白，大制片厂的工作方式就是容易造成浪费，根本没法让诺兰获得他想要的掌控权和参与感。

And so it's these experiences that you just realize that big studios, they have this way of just working that encourages waste and doesn't give Nolan the control and involvement that he desires.

他说，在大制作电影里，你被鼓励迅速雇用一大群人。

And he says, you're encouraged in a big movie to very rapidly hire an enormous number of people.

艺术家、概念设计师，各种各样的人。

Artists, concept guys, and all this stuff.

然后你得养活这个庞大的团队。

Then you have to feed that beast.

于是你就陷入一种情况：我这部科幻片需要一个机器人。

And so you're in a situation where you go, I need a robot for this science fiction film.

给我设计一个机器人出来。

Figure me out a robot.

然后你就走开，任他们自由发挥，等你回来时，他们已经把机器人做出来了。

And then you go away while they do whatever they feel like and come back with a robot.

这正是这一部分最核心的问题，完全不符合我的工作方式。

This is the most important part of this section, which didn't suit my way of working at all.

他希望亲自参与。

He wants to be involved.

他们真的会——他指的是那些大制片公司——

They will spend literally and he's talking about the big studios.

花上数百万美元去拍一部根本拍不出来的电影。

They will spend literally millions of dollars on films that don't happen.

而诺兰却在家车库里忙活，尽量在花钱之前把前期工作都做完。

Meanwhile, Nolan's working out of his garage at home trying to do as much work in preproduction before spending any money.

这跟花几百万美元拍一部最终泡汤的电影完全相反。

It's the opposite of spending millions of dollars on a movie that never comes to fruition.

诺兰身上还有另一件让人意外的事，跟他和我们常聊的那些人不太一样。

Another thing that's surprising about Nolan, it's a little different from a lot of people you and I talk about.

我们常聊的那些人，往往有一种近乎妄想的自信，一种近乎自我催眠的信念，像能扭曲现实一样。

A lot of you people you and I talk about have this like delusional self confidence, this this self belief, this like reality distortion field.

他却是个悲观主义者。

He's a pessimist.

这并不是我说的，让他觉得这个工具特别有意思的原因；真正的原因是他一直在想象失败，然后竭尽全力去避免它。

And it's not what I would say is the way the reason this is an interesting tool for him is he's imagining failure constantly and then doing everything he can to avoid it.

我本人就是个特别悲观的人。

I am very much a pessimist.

我总是按最坏的情况做打算。

I always plan for the worst.

后来我读到书里提到克里斯托弗·诺兰和汉斯·季默长达二十年的创作合作，觉得特别有意思。

And then I thought it was really interesting when the book went into a twenty year creative partnership between that Christopher Nolan has with Hans Zimmer.

他说，他和我之所以合作得这么成功，是因为我常讲，他是个用极简理念做出宏大音效的作曲家。

He says that's why Hans and I have worked so successfully together, because I like to say that he's a minimalist composer with maximalist production values.

听起来气势磅礴，但背后的创意却极其简洁。

It is a very big sound, but the ideas behind it are incredibly minimalist.

非常非常简单。

Very, very simple.

正因为这样，我在剪辑时才有足够的空间，在音符之间的空隙里做文章。

And that gives me space to work as a filmmaker between the notes.

这些年来，我在处理电影配乐时，总是试着把流程完全倒过来，先从情感入手。

What I've done with film scores over the years is to try and totally reverse the process and start with the emotion.

先抓住故事最核心的情感，然后再去搭建后面的细节。

Start with the basic heart of the story and then build the mechanics after that.

诺兰对汉斯·季默‘极简风格、宏大制作’的描述，其实也恰如其分地形容了他自己，这解释了为什么他们能长期保持如此紧密的创作合作关系。

Nolan's description of Hans Zimmer, a minimalist with maximalist production values, does double duty as a description of Nolan himself and hints at why the two men could forge such a close creative partnership in the years to come.

这又是他做的一件我觉得特别有意思的事。

And so this is another thing that he does that I think is really interesting.

这种理念——得从核心出发，倒着往前推。

This idea that you need to start with the heart and work backwards.

在开拍之前，诺兰会先写下一整页的影片愿景摘要，然后反复回头看，确保在拍摄的混乱中不会丢失电影最根本的情感。

So before shooting, Nolan actually types up a one page summary of the film's vision and then will return to it repeatedly so he never loses the heart of the movie in the chaos of the film production.

我觉得这真有意思，要从核心出发，再倒着往前推。

I thought that was really interesting that you start with the heart and then you work backwards.

我再说一遍，他就是有这么几套想法，年复一年、一部接一部地用，自从我上次跟你们提过这些，虽然换了一部电影，但他还是说：你永远别指望成功。

Go back again, I told you he's got a handful of these ideas that he applies year after year, movie after movie or in many years in the future, since the last time I told you this, different movie, but he says you never expect success.

我这个人特别悲观，还特别迷信，总往坏处想。

I'm a very negative superstitious pessimistic person.

他又一次预设了失败，然后拼命做所有能做的事来避免它发生。

Again, he's assuming it's gonna be failure and then working to do everything that he can to prevent that.

这还牵扯到要做让自己真正骄傲的作品，因为他经历过太多次，电影上映后被骂得一塌糊涂。

Oh, and it also goes back to making things that you're actually really proud of because he's had so many examples where they're like, oh, like, this film got a bad review.

票房肯定要崩。

It's gonna flop at the box office.

他有时候会暂时相信外界的负面评价，可等电影一上映，结果反而冲到榜首，好评如潮。

He kinda tries to buy he kinda temporarily buys into what the outside world's saying and then winds up getting once it's released, goes to, like, number one, gets great reviews.

这就是他从中学到的东西。

So this is what he learned about that.

我学到的是，对我来说最重要的是，我知道这部电影是好的，我知道自己干得不错。

What I learned was it's really important to me that I knew the film was good, that I knew that I liked what I had done.

我对此感觉特别踏实。

I felt very good about that.

当真正到了紧要关头，所有人都说你这东西一文不值的时候，你唯一能依靠的，就只有这个信念。

And you realize when the chips are down and everyone turns around and tells you that it's crap, that is all you have.

所以如果你从一开始就不相信它，那你就是在冒险。

So if you don't believe in it in the first place, you're taking a risk.

你是在冒一个巨大的风险。

You're taking a terrible risk.

这一点前面已经提过好几次了，但诺兰确实喜欢在限制中创作——这部电影的预算只有四千万美元，而正是这种紧巴巴的预算，反而成就了他最钟爱的创作状态。

This has already been mentioned several times, but the fact that Nolan loves operating within constraints, he's making this movie, has a very tight budget of just 40,000,000, and it says this tight budget enforces Nolan's favorite conditions.

在既定框架内的即兴发挥。

Improvisation within a set of restrictions.

几页之后，又回到了我之前反复提到的这个观点。

Few pages later, it goes back to this idea that I've repeated a few times.

我拍的电影，本质上都是在大力肯定一件事：我们的世界，远比表面看到的要深邃得多。

I make films that are huge endorsements of the idea that there's more to our world than meets the eye.

这又回到了他渴望生活在并工作于一个非数字化世界的愿望。

It goes back to this idea that he desires to live and to work in an analog world.

诺兰对新技术的抵触情绪非常深远。

Nolan's antagonism with regard to new technologies is far reaching.

他坚信摄影影像和电脑生成影像之间有本质区别，更喜欢胶片的颗粒感和质感，偏爱实景拍摄而非棚拍，钟情于实体布景而不是电脑合成的背景。

An absolute believer in the difference between photographic and computer generated imagery, he prefers the grain and texture of celluloid to the flatness of digital, location shootings to sets, and physical sets to computer generated backdrops.

他的电影之所以吸引人，某种程度上和精品酒店、低保真录音、故障音乐和Etsy受欢迎的原因是一样的。

The appeal of his films in some ways rests on the same principle behind the popularity of boutique hotels, lo fi recording methods, glitch music, and Etsy.

在信息时代，真正有价值的东西，恰恰是那些无法被复制粘贴的元素。

That in the information age, more value, not less, will accrue to precisely those elements that cannot be cut and pasted.

又回到了那个观点：世界远比我们看到的要丰富。

Goes back to this idea that there's more to the world than meets the eye again.

他还觉得我们被技术欺骗了，这一点他反复强调，比如你以为所有的人类知识都在线上。

And also the fact that he thinks we're being duped by technology, which he repeats over and over again, the idea that you think all this information, like, all the all the human knowledge is online.

他甚至不只做思想实验，而是真的做了一个实验，来验证这个想法是否成立。

And so he he has, like, this interesting thought experiment, and not even thought experiment, an actual experiment to see if that's true.

他说，一个有趣的实验是：走进图书馆，随便挑一本书，翻开一页，记下一个事实或信息，重复十次，然后上网看看这十个点能查到几个。

So he says, an interesting experiment would be to walk into a library, go to a book, open the book to a random page, find a fact or a piece of information, write it down, do that 10 times and then go online and see how many of those 10 you can find.

我们总觉得有90%的信息都能在网上找到。

Our feeling is that 90% of the information is online.

我怀疑真实数字其实不到1%。

I have a suspicion that the real answer is point 9%.

所以这本书的作者真的做了这个实验，他列了10个事实，结果网上只找到一个。

So the author of the book actually does this, and he has 10 facts, and he only found one of them online.

所以不是1%，而是远低于90%。

So not point 9%, but way less than 90%.

回到2006年，这又说明了，他始终坚持自己最想要的工作方式，不管行业其他人都在怎么做。

So then we go back to again, this is the year 2006, and it goes back to the fact that he's going to find the best way that he wants to work, and he's going to do that regardless of what the rest of his industry is doing.

我们生活和工作在一个模拟的世界里。

So it says, we live and work in an analog world.

2006年上映的《致命魔术》是第一部制片厂要求我们把胶片数字化、用电脑剪辑的电影。

The Prestige, which is the movie that came out in 2006, was the first film where we were expected by the studio to digitize the negative and edit electronically.

直到今天，我们依然没有采用行业里大多数人用的那种工作流程。

To this day, we've never converted to the other workflow used by most of the industry.

我们一直坚持用胶片拍摄，后期用电子方式剪辑，然后根据帧号手工剪接胶片，最终输出的就是这个版本。

We've continued to shoot on film, edit electronically, then take the frame numbers and cut the film by hand, and that's what goes out.

《致命魔术》正是我们跟行业其他人的分水岭，或者说，是他们甩开了我们。

The prestige was very much the point at which we separated from the rest of the industry or rather they separated from us.

再往后几页，你可以进一步展开讲这一点。

And so a few pages later, you can kind of expound on that.

你完全可以借此梳理出诺兰作为导演的核心理念。

You can easily set up Nolan's entire ethos as a filmmaker.

他把类型片的规则拿过来，然后彻底反转。

He takes the rules of genre and he flips them.

他还常提到一些词，比如‘剥离’、‘简化’、‘极简’、‘删减’。

Another thing that he says, he'll use the word strip away, reduce, minimalist, cut.

他说，随着年龄增长、经验积累，信心也越来越足，反而能删得更多。

So he says, I think and he talks about the older he gets, the more experience he gets, the more confidence he has, the more he can actually cut.

我觉得这很大程度上是源于自信——只有足够自信，才敢大胆删减。

I think a lot of that is about confidence because it takes more confidence to strip things away.

所以他在拍《蝙蝠侠》系列的时候，小丑有句台词，听起来根本不像小丑会说的，倒像是克里斯托弗·诺兰自己讲的。

And so when he's working on the Batman series, there's this line by the Joker that again sounds like it would come out of not the Joker's mouth, but Christopher Nolan's mouth.

在这个世界上，唯一合理的活法就是不讲规矩。

The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules.

他还提到，真正扭转局势的转折点，是影片获得了极高的口碑。

And so there's this really he talked about the turning point of momentum being, you know, critically acclaimed.

他们原本只指望拿两个奥斯卡，结果票房回报了大概五倍、甚至十倍的预算。

They could want two Oscars, winds up, I think, returning, like, something like five x or 10 x its its budget.

之后他就像是坐上了火箭，一路飙升。

And then he was able to, like, just take have this, like, near vertical ascent.

但后来，他有一部电影票房突破了十亿美元。

But then he one of his movies makes a billion dollars.

《黑暗骑士》在票房上轻松突破十亿美元，这股势头彻底改变了他的人生轨迹。

The Dark Knight makes over a billion dollars at the bar box office, and this momentum changes his entire career.

至于他如何看待自己在这段事业上升期所经历的变化，我觉得特别有意思。

And then the way he thinks about the changes that he experienced during this time of career, I thought was really interesting.

于是，他在华纳兄弟的地位突然从稳固变成了不可动摇。

So it says, suddenly his position at Warner Brothers went from solid to unassailable.

这件事带来的直接效果非常惊人，让我能自由决定下一部电影的拍法。

The immediately thing that this did was extraordinary and allowed me to do whatever I wanted to as the next film.

从创作角度来说，他们愿意让我随心所欲地做任何事。

Creatively speaking, they were going to let me do whatever I wanted to do.

直到那一刻之前，每一步都是一场斗争，无论如何都很难。

Everything up to that moment had been a fight or a struggle one way or another.

然后他突然意识到这一点，心想：哦，原来如此。

And then he says, suddenly realizing this, said, oh, okay.

这次我要掌握最终决定权。

I'm going to get the last word word.

这在很多方面都让人感到自由，但同时也让人害怕，因为你知道，每个导演都渴望这样的权力。

It was very liberating in a lot of ways, but it was also scary because you know that every filmmaker would give their teeth for that.

终于，你得到了它。

So finally, you've got it.

那接下来你打算怎么做？

And what are you gonna do with it?

这是他第一次能停下来想想：我现在到底想做什么？

For the first time, he was able to step back and go, okay, what do I wanna do now?

然后他想起来，我之前说过，这些想法可能会沉寂多年，慢慢酝酿。

And then he figured out, remember I said that that these ideas can be dormant or ruminate for decades.

于是他说，我一直以来最想拍的，就是《盗梦空间》。

And so he says, what I've always wanted to do was to do inception.

整本书里，他一直在谈那些影响过他的东西。

So throughout the book, he's always talking about these influences that he has.

他把整个世界当成最大的课堂，吸收这些灵感，融入自己的创作中。

He'll use the world as his giant classroom, take those influences, and apply it to his work.

但他在这里提出了一个特别有意思的观点。

But he makes a really interesting point here.

他非常推崇豪尔赫·路易斯·博尔赫斯的短篇小说和写作风格。

He's a big fan of the short stories and the writing of Jorge Luis Borges.

他提到影响的时候说，你生活中总得有点别的东西才行。

And his point on the influence that he has, like, all you have to have something else going on in your life.

难道别人随便给你一个故事，你就能直接用吗？

Like, can't somebody can't just give you a story and then what are gonna do with it?

你得先有东西能挂靠上去。

You have to have something to hang it on.

所以他觉得，读那些短篇故事时，你心里得先有某种共鸣，才能和它产生连接。

So he says with those short stories, you have to have something rattling inside you already that then connects with that.

但如果你心里本来就没有那种倾向，它就只是个故事，根本激不起任何火花。

But if you're not already predisposed to that, it just comes to you as a story and it doesn't necessarily spark anything.

于是他从沃里斯的短篇里取了一个点子，后来这成了《盗梦空间》的核心理念之一。

So he took one idea from the short story that Voorhees wrote, and it's actually one of the main ideas in Inception.

这特别重要，因为到那时为止，他已经多次尝试写完《盗梦空间》，但都没成功。

And that was important because he had taken multiple shots up until this point to try to finish writing Inception.

他说，之前最多只写到了八十页左右。

He says, managed to get about 80 pages in.

我写到第三幕开头就卡住了，一卡就是好多年。

I got into the beginning of the third act and then got stuck, and I stayed stuck for years and years.

《盗梦空间》可以说是他半生心血的结晶，这个点子最早在他16岁时萌生，在大学期间慢慢酝酿，搬到好莱坞后进一步完善，最终在《黑暗骑士》大获成功后才得以实现。

Inception was thus the work of half a lifetime, an idea first conceived by Nolan when he was 16, nursed at university, elaborated upon when he came to Hollywood, and finally executed in the wake of The Dark Knight's success.

《盗梦空间》的每一个重要阶段，都融入了他人生不同阶段的体验。

Inception took input from its maker at every major point of his life.

那个少年、那个大学生、那个初入好莱坞的新人、那个功成名就的人、那个父亲。

The schoolboy, the university student, the Hollywood neophyte, the success story, the father.

这段话真绝了。

What a paragraph.

我太喜欢这段了。

I love that.

还有，几页之后有一句话特别惊人。

And again, there's a crazy line a few pages later.

从最初产生这个想法算起，23年后，诺兰于2009年6月19日正式开拍《盗梦空间》。

23 after first conceiving of the idea, Nolan commenced principal photography on inception on 06/19/2009.

我建议你买下这本书，好好读一读，但别忘了看里面的图，那样你就能明白他是怎么把所有东西都梳理出来的。

I would encourage you to buy this book, read this book, but you should look at the pictures because then you see how he, like, maps everything out.

这真是一个特别有意思的想法。

And so this is one of the most interesting ideas.

他的第一个做法是把事情倒过来想。

This idea that first flip it.

明白吗？

K?

你可以看到他是怎么把剧情一步步写出来的，全都清清楚楚。

So and you could see how he, like, writes out the plots and everything.

当导演刚听到或冒出一个想法时，他第一反应就是把它翻个个儿，就像把想法变成一个三维物体，能拿在手里、绕着看。

So it says when the director first hears or has an idea, his first instinct is to flip it, turning it almost into a three-dimensional object that he can hold in his hands or walk around.

所以，讲故事就像雕塑一样，成了一个三维的过程。

Storytelling thus becomes a three-dimensional exercise like sculpture.

然后他还提到，如果你的事业一路走下去，就会遇到一堆事件和影响，多到你根本察觉不到，它们其实是在潜意识层面起作用的。

And then he talks about if your career continues, you have this confluence of events you can't and influences you can't even almost like they operate at a subconscious level.

我觉得这就是为什么史蒂夫·乔布斯说，他年纪越大，就越觉得直觉更重要，直觉在他职业生涯中所起的作用远超理性。

I think this is why Steve Jobs said that the older he gets, the more important that he thinks intuition was, and that intuition played a much larger role in his career than intellect did.

所以诺兰说，这些年我逐渐明白，导演这份工作，很多事都是靠本能和潜意识完成的。

And so Nolan says, what I've accepted over the years is that the job of a director is one which a lot of what you do is instinctive and unconscious.

前几天我刚和一个朋友待在一起。

I actually was with a friend the other day.

他是最顶尖的投资者之一，只是没人听说过他，他也喜欢这样。

He's one of the greatest investors basically no one has ever heard of, he likes it that way.

他跟我讲的一些话特别有意思。

And what he told me was very interesting.

他说，我对投资理解得越深，就越能做好它。

He says, the more I understand about investing, the better I get at it.

他还说，我越觉得没必要非得组个团队。

He says something like, the less I think I should actually have a team.

他当时就是这么一说，嘿。

That it was something like, hey.

他的团队人越多，表现反而可能越差。

The performance could be, like, inversely correlated to the amount of people on his team.

因为他有一种直觉，觉得某件事该做，可你试着把这想法交给团队里其他人，或者解释给他们听。

And part of it was because he's, like, had this intuition or instinct that we should be doing something, and you try to give it give it to somebody else on the team to do or explain it to them.

但他们做不好，因为他们没有你那种直觉，那种潜意识里的驱动力，他们根本不懂这有多重要。

And they don't because they don't have whatever is, like, that intuition you're having, the the subconscious that's driving you, they don't understand how important it is.

他们只是把一个本来只要他亲自上手就能大获成功的点子，给搞砸了。

They basically kinda, like, take an idea that if he just ran with it, it would have been a lot more successful, and they kinda just fuck it up.

但我特别喜欢这个想法。

But I love that idea.

这些年我逐渐明白，无论是导演、创业者，还是其他任何角色，很多工作都是靠直觉和潜意识完成的。

What I've accepted over the years that the job, director, entrepreneur, whatever the case is, is one in which a lot of which you do is instinctive and unconscious.

所以在任何事业里，你都会遇到瓶颈。

And so in any endeavor, you're gonna get stuck.

《盗梦空间》里就卡住了，其实大多数电影都会卡在某个地方。

And in Inception, you get stuck and almost all these movies get stuck.

但《盗梦空间》特别有意思，因为后来他谈到当你摆脱困境时该怎么做，这让我想起了里克·鲁宾。

But Inception is very fascinating because then he talks about what you do when you get unstuck and this is gonna remind me of Rick Rubin.

在剪辑进行几周后，本来以为片子终于有点起色了，结果我们突然撞上了一堵墙。

Somewhere a few weeks into the cut where normally you begin to gain a little bit of confidence that it's coming together, we just hit a wall.

我们卡在那里好长时间。

We got stuck for a long time.

连续好几天我都睡不着。

I couldn't get to sleep for a couple days.

那感觉真的太糟了。

It was just awful.

我当时心想：天哪。

I was like, oh my god.

我们居然把两亿美元像烧篝火一样全烧光了。

We've just taken $200,000,000 and burned it in a bonfire.

拍电影的时候，大多数事情都会慢慢变好，就像一条逐渐上升的曲线。

As you make a film, most things tend to work along this sliding scale of like, yeah, that's gotta that's going to get better.

我们得稍微调整一下，慢慢改就行。

We need to tweak that and you just adjust it.

就像拧轮胎上的螺母一样。

It's like tightening with lug nuts on a tire.

先拧这一个，再稍微拧那个，再动一下另一个，保持循环着来。

You do this one, and then you do that one a little bit, and you do that one a little bit, and you keep the rotation.

但有时候你就是卡住了，心里想：这根本行不通。

But every now and again, you get somewhere where it just doesn't, and you're like, this will never work.

这个难关，我们怕是过不去了。

This, we will never get past.

那我们该怎么办？

So what do we do?

解决办法就是狠心删减。

The solution was a ruthless cut.

里克·鲁宾提到过这个，这跟我们之前聊乔布斯流亡时期的做法很像。

So Rick Rubin talked about this, and it's again, think about what Steve Jobs did when we talked about Steve Jobs in exile.

他回到苹果，说：你们现在有三百款产品。

Comes back to to Apple and says, you have, you know, 300 products.

我们只做四款。

We're gonna do four.

我们要来一次彻底的删减，一次毫不留情的精简。

We're gonna do this ruthless cut, this ruthless edit.

这本书里诺兰提到的这种彻底删减，其实里克·鲁宾称之为‘毫不留情的精简’。

So the ruthless cut in this book, Nolan was talking about, is called the ruthless edit by Rick Rubin.

假设他们卡住了。

Let's say they're stuck.

专辑需要十首歌，而我正在和一支非常重要的乐队合作。

We need 10 songs on an album, and I'm working with this band that's really important.

我们有十五首还算喜欢的，或者二十首勉强能接受的。

You know, we have 15 that we kinda like or 20 that we kinda like.

别想着把这二十首删到十首。

Let's not try to cut that 20 down to 10.

咱们把这二十首减到三首。

Let's cut that 20 down to three.

哪三首是绝对离不开的？

There's what are the three we cannot live without?

然后试着一首一首加回去，变成第四首。

And then let's try to add each one back to number four.

哪一首非得是第四首不可？

What is one that absolutely has to be number four?

你心里清楚有没有选对。

And you know if you got it or not.

其实根本不需要非得有一首是第四首。

There's not one that actually has to be number four.

这意味着你已经淘汰了二十首里的十七首。

That means you made now you made 17 of the 20 that you're not gonna use.

那你就得再写二十首、三十首，甚至四五十首。

So then you might have to make another twenty, thirty, forty, fifty songs.

但再说一遍，当你卡住的时候，就要狠心删减，果断修改。

But again, when you're stuck, just ruthlessly cut, ruthlessly edit.

我特别喜欢这个想法。

I absolutely love that idea.

我觉得这真是个很有意思的点子。

I think it's a really interesting idea.

这其实反映了他想生活在模拟世界里的愿望。

Goes back to his desire to live in an analog world.

我觉得这简直是个绝妙的隐喻。

I think this is just a really great metaphor.

他的想法是，不希望让人产生依赖，而是希望你能自己找到方向。

The idea that you do not wanna encourage dependency and that you want to be able to find your way.

在我念给你听之前，我突然想到另一件事，他提到当时他孩子们的情况。

Before I read this to you, something else popped in my mind just now, where he talks about, you know, like his kids at the time.

现在你想象一下，要是换成‘Chachi B Tea’，你会怎么做？

Now imagine what you would do with, like, Chachi B Tea.

但他那时候的孩子，想查点什么，直接一搜谷歌就出来了。

But his kids at the time, like, if they wanted to to look up information, they just Google and they get it immediately.

他说，我小的时候，得去图书馆翻杜威十进分类法，或者花好大劲儿才能找到想要的信息。

He's like, well, when I was younger, had, like, go through, like, the Dewey decimal system in the library or something or, like, I'd have to hunt for that information.

他觉得，那种找信息的过程——费劲、动脑、花时间，哪怕最后没得到什么，这过程本身就有价值。

And that activity of hunting, of working, of it being laborious to get what you want, he says that activity, even if you don't get take away what you got after the activity.

付出努力、投入心力，这件事本身就值得珍惜。

That activity of putting in the work and the effort is valuable in and of itself.

所以他想让孩子们别太依赖科技，别把思考的事全外包出去。

And so he's trying to get his kids, you know, away from just overly, like, being dependent and over rely on essentially outsourcing their thinking.

他说，你得特别小心，别给太多信息。

So he says you have to be really careful on how much information you're given.

一旦我们开始依赖某些技术，或者依赖那些掌控信息、追踪我们行踪的公司，就危险了。

There's a danger when we start to rely on particular technologies or on corporations that manage our information and track our movements.

它们在培养人们的依赖性。

They're encouraging dependency.

我常教孩子们一件事：每次去一个新城市，我喜欢随便逛，故意迷路，然后告诉他们我是怎么在没用手机、没用地图的情况下找到路的。

One of the things I try to teach my kids is when we go to a new city, I like to wander around and get lost and then explain to them how I've managed to find my way without a phone, without a map.

我就享受这个过程。

I just embrace that.

我说，你看。

I said, look.

就算迷路了，我们也能找到回去的路。

We'll get lost, but we'll find our way.

这跟拍电影特别贴切——你得盯着平面的布景设计图，把它和实际的三维空间对应起来。

It's something that applies to filmmaking very, very directly because you look at the plan of the set that you're building.

你总得在二维图像和三维空间之间不断调整、匹配。

You're always reconciling two dimensional imagery with three-dimensional space.

但我不想让孩子过度依赖工具。

But again, I don't wanna encourage dependency.

你得有能力自己找到方向。

You want to be able to find your way.

我觉得这简直是人生的绝佳隐喻。

I think that's just a great metaphor for life.

所以往前看，他其实喜欢限制。

So moving ahead, he likes constraints.

但他并不喜欢条条框框。

He doesn't like rules.

因此他说，作为电影人，最怕的就是被束缚住。

And so he says what you don't want as a filmmaker is to feel restrictive.

他特别喜欢的一部电影是《2001太空漫游》。

So one of his favorite movies is 2,001 as Space Odyssey.

这部电影其实是1968年斯坦利·库布里克拍的，他对此有句特别棒的话。

It was actually produced in 1968 created in 1968 by Stanley Kubrick, and he just got a great line about this.

他说，正因如此，我才觉得《2001太空漫游》是电影界的朋克。

He says, that's why I say 2,001 is the punk rock of movies.

它并不是完全打破所有规则。

It's not that it breaks all the rules.

这部电影根本无视什么规则的存在。

It's a film that doesn't acknowledge that there are any rules.

所以回到之前小丑说的那句话。

And so go back to that line from the Joker from earlier.

在这个世界上，唯一合理的活法就是不讲规则。

The only sensible way to live in this world is without rules.

诺兰最喜欢的一部电影。

One of Nolan's favorite movies.

这是他的原话。

This is his description.

他最喜欢的一部电影。

One of his favorite movies.

并不是它打破了所有规则。

It's not that it breaks all the rules.

这部电影根本无视什么规则的存在。

It's a film that doesn't acknowledge that there are any rules.

你看，诺兰正是这么做的。

And you see Nolan does exactly this.

所以他谈到他是怎么拍《敦刻尔克》的。

So he talks about how he built Dunkirk.

《敦刻尔克》是一部战争片。

Dunkirk is a war movie.

这种类型片早就司空见惯了。

That is a well worn, well known genre.

对吧？

Right?

他在描述自己想实现的效果。

And so he's describing what he wanted to do.

完全是现在进行时。

Pure present tense.

全程都是高潮。

Pure climax.

不会出现将军在地图上推着小船的镜头。

There would be no shots of generals pushing boats across a map.

没有丘吉尔。

No Churchill.

没有政治情节。

No politics.

从第一个场景开始，影片就展现了一种极其简洁的道德逻辑。

From its very first sequence, we are given the film's starkly Euclidean moral calculus.

活下去，或者死去。

Survive or die.

我在《敦刻尔克》里剥离掉的，就是那些背景故事。

What I stripped away on Dunkirk was the backstory.

如果你仔细想想他这么做，其实是在说，这部电影的价值在于它缺少了什么。

If you think about what he's doing here, he's describing this is a product that is defined by what it doesn't have.

他是在否定战争片必须遵循某些固定套路。

He's not he's rejecting that there are rules for a war film.

他一直在坚持。

He keeps going.

我们拍了一部战争片，却完全没用那些视觉上混乱的手法。

We made a war film in which we don't use any of the visually chaotic devices.

快速剪辑、大量动作、浓烟、烈火，碎片到处乱飞。

Lots of quick cuts, lots of activity, lots of smoke, lots of fire, bits and bobs flying everywhere.

那些东西通常用来向观众传达战争的感觉。

That usually sell the idea of war to an audience.

《敦刻尔克》完全依靠的是这些元素的缺席。

Dunkirk is entirely about the absence of those things.

最后，我想跟你们说的最后一个想法，是纪律与执着的结合。

And then finally, the last idea I want to tell you about is this combination of discipline and obsession.

不管发生什么，我都会继续前进，并且让我的团队也清楚这一点。

It's the fact that I keep going no matter what, and I make sure that my team knows it.

在电影行业里，大家都说我运气好，总能遇到好天气。

I'm known in the film business for having good luck with weather.

这种说法不对。

That's inaccurate.

我经常遇到糟糕的天气，但我的原则是，不管天气多差都照拍不误。

I often have terrible luck with weather, but my philosophy is to shoot no matter what the weather is.

不管天气怎样，始终坚持拍摄。

Always shooting no matter what weather.

继续往前走。

Just keep going.

继续往前走。

Just keep going.

让整个剧组和演员都知道，我们真的会不管条件多恶劣都坚持拍下去。

Letting everybody on the crew and cast know that we're really serious about doing that no matter what the conditions are.

什么天气都拍。

Shoot in any weather.

我就说到这里。

And that is where I'll leave it.

现在已经读了426本，还剩1000本，我再跟你们联系。

That is four twenty six books down, 1,000 to go, and I'll talk to you again soon.