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现在，进入正题。
And now on to the show.
来自Data Rails，这是今天的FP&A。
From data rails, this is FPNA today.
大家好。
Hello, everyone.
欢迎收听今天的FP&A。
Welcome to FP and A today.
我是您的主持人保罗·巴恩赫斯特，也就是FP和A guy。
I am your host, Paul Barnhurst, aka the FP and A guy.
今天的FP和A由Datarells赞助，这是专为Excel用户设计的财务规划与分析平台。
FP and A today is brought to you by Datarells, the financial planning and analysis platform for Excel users.
每周，我们都会邀请一位财务规划与分析领域的领袖做客。
Every week, we welcome a leader from the world of financial planning and analysis.
今天，我们非常高兴地欢迎泰勒·奥斯托特来到节目。
Today, we are thrilled to welcome to the show Taylor Ostott.
泰勒，欢迎来到节目。
Taylor, welcome to the show.
嘿。
Hey.
谢谢，保罗。
Thanks, Paul.
很高兴能来这里。
Happy to be here.
嗯。
Yeah.
我们非常高兴你能来到这里。
We're really excited to to have you here with us.
先简单介绍一下泰勒，然后我们就开始提问。
So just a little bit about Taylor, and then we'll jump into some questions.
他来自亚利桑那州的斯科茨代尔。
He comes to us from Scottsdale, Arizona.
那曾经是我的地盘。
Used to be my stomping ground.
我就住在那个区域。
I lived right right in that area.
真是个绝佳的地方。
So great, great location.
他目前是Dashlane的财务副总裁。
He's currently the vice president of finance at Dashlane.
他获得了亚利桑那大学的会计学学士和硕士学位。
He earned his bachelor's and master's in accounting from U of A.
他之前曾就职于GoDaddy、Honeywell等公司。
And he's previously worked at such companies as GoDaddy, Honeywell, and among others.
所以我们接下来要提出一个我们最近常问的问题。
So we're gonna kick this off with a question that we've been using lately that we like to ask people.
谈谈你经历过的最糟糕或最具挑战性的预算经历。
Tell me about the worst or most challenging budget experience you've ever had.
天啊。
Oh, man.
我能说所有人吗？
Can I say everyone?
我相信每个人都有他们独特的经历。
I'm sure they all have their unique angles.
确实都有，但有一个特别让我印象深刻。
They all do, but one stands out to me.
我第一次做预算时，是从纯粹的审计会计转向了一种混合的会计财务岗位。
My first time doing a budget, was transitioning from so pure audit accounting into a hybrid accounting finance role.
当时我在一家房地产投资信托公司负责财务规划与分析（FP&A）。
And so I was doing FP and A for a real estate investment trust.
房地产的好处是事情非常简单。
Good thing about real estate is things are really simple.
你清楚自己的现金流入和流出。
You know your cash inflows and outflows.
有挑战的是，我的经理不太懂技术，她希望我打印出Excel表格，以便她能手写批注，再交还给我进行修改。
The challenging part was my manager wasn't super tech savvy to the point where the way she wanted to review the models is I had to print out the Excel spreadsheet so that she could review it by hand, write down notes, give it to me to review.
这家房地产投资信托公司拥有四五十个物业组合。
This real estate investment trust had forty, fifty sets of properties.
也就是说，你需要打印出四五十个工作表，手写批注，再拿回来。
So you're talking about forty, fifty tabs that had to get printed, get handwritten notes, come back.
那一刻，我向自己承诺：今后在财务工作中，我一定会充分利用技术，绝不再手写批注Excel表格。
And that was the moment where I promised myself, I am always going to leverage technology in my finance role because I am never reviewing handwritten notes on an Excel spreadsheet ever again.
是啊，听起来挺痛苦的。
Yeah, that sounds pretty painful.
这让我想起了谈论技术。
It reminds me of talking about technology.
我想我以前在节目中讲过这个，但我上过一门VBA课程，当时老师在讲VBA的重要性。
And I think I've told this on the show before, but I took a VBA class the and guy was talking about the importance of VBA.
他说：让我跟你分享我第一天上班时的经历。
He's like, Let me share the experience I had on my first day on the job.
坐在我旁边教我的那个人坐在电脑前，输入了所有这些数字，完成后，电子表格里有大约50个数字。
Sit down with this guy who's training me and he's at the computer and he enters all these numbers and he gets done and there's like 50 numbers in the spreadsheet.
然后他走到他的十位计算器前，把所有数字加起来，把结果写在电子表格的底部。
And he goes over to his 10 key calculator and he adds up all the numbers and puts the answer in the bottom of the spreadsheet.
旁边看着他的那个人说：我敢肯定Excel能自动帮你求和。
And the guy that's watching him goes, I'm pretty sure it'll sum that up for you.
他却说：我不确定能不能，但这就是我的做法。
He's like, I don't know about that, but this is how you do it.
然后就继续了。
And just moved on.
太好了。
That's great.
你说效率低下到极致，本来可以节省不少时间，但有时候人们就是固守旧习。
You know, talk about the height of inefficiency, like you could save yourself some time there, but sometimes people are set in their ways.
所以我想你已经回答了下一个问题：从那次经历中学到了什么，如何利用技术。
So I think you answered the next question of what you learned from that experience to leverage technology.
回答得太好了，非常有帮助。
Great answer there and it is so helpful.
这确实是我们都应该做的事情。
Definitely something we should all be doing.
那么，你现在能跟我们讲讲你自己吗？你的背景和你目前在做什么？
So why don't you go ahead and now tell us a little bit about yourself, your background and what you're doing today?
好的。
Yeah.
感谢你的介绍，我觉得你讲得非常好。
So I appreciate the intro and I think you nailed it pretty well.
为了再补充一点细节。
So just to give it a little bit more color.
我最初上大学时选了心理学，因为我对人们如何思考和做决定感兴趣，但后来我发现我不打算长期从事这一行，于是转到了商业领域，最终进入了会计行业。
I originally went to school for psychology just because I was interested in how people think and how people decide and then I realized that I didn't want to do anything with that longer term so I made a shift into business and ultimately accounting.
我开始从事公共会计工作，觉得那是个很棒的环境，同事也很优秀，但并不适合我，因为这份工作主要是指出问题，而解决问题的机会很少。
Started doing public accounting, thought it was a great environment, great people, just not for me because it's a lot of pointing out problems and not a lot of solving it.
于是我逐渐转向了财务规划与分析（FP&A）领域，在这里我可以运用一些关于决策和人类思维的见解，同时也能发挥我在商业方面的知识。
So I just gradually made my way over into the FP and A side of the house where I could leverage some of the things that I learned about decision making and how people think but also start to leverage some of the business stuff as well.
我职业生涯的大部分时间都在GoDaddy度过。
Bulk of the career that was at GoDaddy.
我在公司上市前一年加入，待了八年，期间公司营收从15亿美元增长到约40亿美元。
I joined a year before the IPO, was there for eight years where we scaled from a billion and a half revenue to about 4,000,000,000 revenue.
我离开时，负责其中约15亿美元的业务，带领一个14人的团队，而这一切都是从一名普通员工开始的。
By the time I left, I was supporting about a billion and a half of that 4,000,000,000, running team about 14 and that's all from starting as an individual contributor.
所以我不只是参与了一个快速成长的业务，个人也经历了大量的成长。
So not only was I part of a business that was going through a lot of growth, personally had to go through a lot of growth.
然后我获得了加入Dashlane的机会，重新开始建设一些东西。
And then I got the opportunity to come to Dashlane and start building things again.
这份工作最有趣的部分不仅是组建财务团队，更是提升周围人的财务素养，让他们理解自己所做的工作如何最终为业务和客户创造价值。
And that's really the most fun part of this job is not only building up the finance team, but building up the finance acumen of those around you so that folks can appreciate how what they're doing ultimately delivers for the business and then delivers for the customer.
是的。
Yeah.
所以听起来你确实有过不仅建设财务部门，还见证了公司成长的经历，对吧？
So it sounds like you've definitely had that experience of not only building the finance department, but seeing a company building, right?
显然，GoDaddy从一家私营公司成长为一家40亿美元的公司。
Obviously GoDaddy went from private to a $4,000,000,000 company.
这是相当可观的增长。
That's substantial growth.
而你也从一名普通员工成长为一支14人的团队负责人。
And you grew from being an individual contributor to, as you mentioned, 14 people.
从这段经历中，有没有什么关键的收获？比如一两件你带在身边、帮助你进行建设的事情？
So any kind of key takeaways from that experience, maybe one or two things that you've taken with you and that help you in that building process?
一是，变化对每个人来说都令人害怕，但也是不可避免的。
One is that change is scary for everyone, but it's also inevitable.
所以，当你身处高速增长的环境中——无论是个人成长、公司发展，还是两者兼有——最好的做法之一就是成为那个稳定的力量，告诉人们：事情不会像我们想象的那么糟。
So one of the best things you can do when you're part of that high growth, whether it's personally or as part of a company or both is to be that rock and say, look, things aren't going to be as bad as we think they're going to be.
但也不会像我们想象的那么好。
They're probably not going be as great as we think they're going to be.
但我们可以确定的是，事情一定会发生变化。
But the one that we can count on is that things are going to evolve.
一旦你为这种变化赋予一些具体的特征，让它不再是未知的变化，而是朝着某个方向或某种流程的变化，它就会变得不那么可怕了。
And once you start to put some characteristics around the change, so it's not just unknown change, but it's change in a direction or change to a process, it starts to become a little bit less scary.
整个命名娱乐的理念。
The whole idea of naming entertainment.
所以，一旦你开始明确地指出不确定性是什么，你就能克服它。
And so once you kind of start to name like what the uncertainty is, you can get through there.
我认为第二点，尤其是在谈论职业发展时，是学会如何培养你周围的人。
I think the second thing, especially when you're talking about developing in your career is learning how to develop others around you.
因为长期以来，尤其是在财务规划与分析领域，你所被看重的是你的电子表格建模能力和协作能力。
Because for so long, especially in FP and A, what you're valued for is your spreadsheet modeling, your partnership.
但当你晋升时，你真的需要培养周围的人，教导他们，委派任务，最重要的是学会放手。
But as you're moving up, you really have to build up those around you and teach them and delegate and most importantly, let go.
这有点令人害怕，因为曾经让你获得现在成就的那些事情，你现在反而需要完全退出这些事务，信任你的团队去完成它们。
And it's a little bit scary because the thing that got you to where you were, where you were allotted for all these things, you actually now need to exit those conversations altogether and trust your team to go do that.
关键是培养这种能力：如何培训人们做事，同时欣赏他们会以自己的方式去做。
And just building that muscle of, okay, how do I train people to do things and also appreciate they're going to do it in their own way.
这实际上是你开始成长的方式，因为一旦你能放手过去那些让你取得成就的事情，你就能达到新的高度。
That's actually how you could start to grow because once you're able to let go of all the things from where you were, you're able to reach new heights.
这绝对是任何一个从个人贡献者转变为管理者的人必须学会的教训。
That's definitely a lesson I think any of us that have gone from that individual contributor to manager have had to learn.
你说到这一点时，我想起了过去的对话，仍然记得那时我对自己说：好吧，放手吧。
As you were saying that I could think back to conversations and still remember the time when I was like, Okay, let it go.
只要他们满足要求，就让他们自己想办法完成，而不是告诉他们怎么做。
As long as they meet the requirements, let them figure out how they're going to do it instead of telling them how to do it.
你有时会觉得自己的方式最好，或者想掌控一切，以为知道别人喜欢什么。
You think your way is best sometimes, or you want to control it, you know what people like.
如果你信任某人，就必须学会放手。
And if you have someone you trust, you have to learn to let go.
否则，你留不住他们。
Otherwise, you're not going to keep them.
完全正确。
A 100%.
有两件事对我帮助很大，因为我承认一开始我在这方面并不擅长。
And there's two things that really helped me with that because I admit I was not great at it to begin.
其中之一是我桌上贴了一张便利贴，上面写着：等等，W-A-I-T，我为什么在说话？
One was I would I actually had a Post it note on my desk and it said, wait, W A I T, why am I talking?
我不断提醒自己，不需要总是说话。
And I kept reminding myself, don't need to say things.
我能放手。
I can let it go.
一旦你意识到不必用言语填满沉默，你就能让别人来填补它。
And once you kind of appreciate that you don't have to fill the silence with your words, you can let others kind of fill it.
这就会变得容易一点。
It becomes a little bit easier.
另一个真正有帮助的是记住，经理的职责最终是明确地知道需要达成什么成果。
And the other thing that really, really helped was remembering that what a manager's role is ultimately is to be really clear on what the outcomes need to be.
然后你就可以在方法上放手不管。
And then you're allowed to be really light on how.
我认为这正符合你所说的，你喜欢让人们用自己的方式去做。
And I think that's to your point of how you like people to do it in their own way.
并且说，看，我可能会用不同的方式来做。
And say, look, I may have done it differently.
我会提出来，因为这对我有效。
I'm going to suggest it because that's what works for me.
但最终这是你的决定，因为这是我每天最终想看到的。
But ultimately it's your call because this what I want to see at the end of the day.
一旦你能掌握这种平衡：对目标非常明确，对方法非常宽松，并且意识到你不必总是说出脑海中浮现的想法，授权就会变得非常容易。
And once you can master that balance of really strong on the what, really light on the how, and then appreciate that you don't always have to say things that are coming up in your mind, delegation's really easy.
我在这方面还有很多需要改进的地方，也许这就是为什么我选择自己单干，而不是成为一名管理多名下属的经理。
I still have a lot of room to work on that, probably why I'm doing my own thing instead of being a manager with a bunch of reports.
但那是另一个故事了。
But that's another story.
我们就不深入谈这个了。
We won't get into that.
我接下来想问你的是，你经营着自己的博客。
Next question I want to ask you here is you run your own blog.
我浏览你的博客时，有一句话引起了我的注意。
As was looking at the blog, there was a statement you made that stood out to me.
我想稍微聊聊这一点。
I'd like to talk a little bit about it.
你知道，你曾说过，金融不仅仅是金钱和数字。
You know, you made the statement that finance is more than dollars and cents.
你进一步说，金融是关于在正确的时间做出正确的权衡。
And you went on to say it's about making the right trade offs at the right time.
你还说，因此你花了很多时间研究组织设计、决策、心理学和战略。
And you said, so you spend a lot of time studying organizational design, decision making, psychology and strategy.
所以你能详细谈谈这个观点吗？就是这种信念，你当时具体想表达的是什么？
So can you elaborate on that, you know, kind of that statement, the belief and what you meant in that?
是的，关于第一点，金融不仅仅是金钱和数字。
Yeah, to the first part of finance is more than just dollars and cents.
这其实是一个类似的讨论，对吧？
Similar conversation, right?
当你职业生涯初期，你花了大量时间在电子表格上，以至于电子表格本身就成了你的成果。
When you're early in your career, you've spent so much time in the spreadsheets that the spreadsheets become the product.
也就是说，你交付的东西就是这些表格。
Like that's what you're delivering.
重要的是实际存在的东西，而不是表面的东西。
It's what's on the, what's there is what matters.
当你职业晋升，或者在一家成长中的公司里，开始意识到电子表格只是地图，而不是疆域本身。
And as you move up in the career or even as you're part of a growing company and start to appreciate the spreadsheet is just the map, it's not the territory.
如果你只关注完成电子表格，那么当年度预算在1月2日到来时，你会发现很多你原本以为正确的事情其实并不成立，那时你会非常失望。
And if all you're focused on is getting the spreadsheet done, you're going be really disappointed if it's an annual budget when January 2 comes around and a lot of things that you thought were gonna be true or wrong.
因此，我逐渐认识到，财务的价值不在于电子表格中被固化下来的数字，而在于支撑这些数字的思考过程。
And so what I came to appreciate is the value of finance is not the numbers that get codified in the spreadsheet, but it's the thinking that fills those numbers in.
因为一旦你开始让团队设想各种情景，他们不仅能理解自己被期望达成的目标，还能在情况变化时灵活调整。
Because once you start getting folks to imagine scenarios, they can not only appreciate what's expected of them, but they can also pivot as things change.
每年预算一启动，几乎立刻就会出错。
Again, every year the budget's gonna be wrong as soon as the year starts.
有时错误对你有利，有时则对你不利，但最终你希望理解这些优势和劣势在哪里。
Sometimes it's wrong in your favor, sometimes it's wrong against your favor, but ultimately you wanna understand where those strengths and weaknesses are.
更重要的是，企业需要理解这一点，以便做出明智的决策。
And it's more important that the business understands that so they can make decisions.
因此，另一种思考财务的方式是权衡取舍，因为我们生活在一个资源受限的环境中。
So then the other way to think about finance is that trade off piece, which is we live in a constrained environment.
无论你身处哪个行业，资金都不是无限的。
Whatever industry that you're in, there is not unlimited funds.
资源也不是无限的。
There's not unlimited resources.
我一直以来的表述是：好的想法比可用于实现它们的资源要多得多。
One way I've always framed this is that there's more good ideas than there are resources to supply them.
每当我们与业务伙伴讨论他们想交付的内容时，最终的限制是我们无法做所有事情。
Whenever we're talking with our business partners about what they wanna go deliver, the ultimate constraint is we can't do everything.
因此，财务中的每一次对话本质上都是关于权衡的对话。
And so every conversation in finance is really a conversation about trade offs.
无论是把预算从这个部分挪到那个部分来做这件事？
Whether it's are you gonna take budget from this part to do this?
或者即使你获得了额外的资金来推进某个新项目，这些资金也来自企业内部的其他地方——可能是原本可以投入其他机会的资金，或者是直接从某个部门抽走的。
Or even if you're getting incremental dollars to go deliver something that came from something else within the business, whether an opportunity that could have been spent on something or literally taken from one of the department.
你越能理解这套系统确实存在，理解你是在不断调整资源以实现优化和优先级排序，这些讨论就会变得容易得多。
And the more you can appreciate that this system exists and you're moving things around to try and optimize and prioritize, it becomes a lot easier to have those discussions.
我认为，这时所有的社交技能就变得至关重要了。
And I think that's where then all the social skills come up.
在你的财务职业生涯达到某个阶段后，你是否精通财务变得不那么重要，而你管理人的能力则变得极其重要。
You get to a certain point in your finance career and it matters less how good you are at finance and it matters a lot more how good you are at managing people.
这包括向上管理、横向管理以及向下管理。
That's managing up, managing laterally, managing down.
因此，理解人们如何思考、组织如何思考，这完全是另一回事。
And so having an appreciation for how people think, how organizations think, which is totally different.
部门的思维方式与个人完全不同。
Departments don't think like individuals.
它们拥有完全不同的思维模式。
They have a different mindset altogether.
但如果你能看透这些差异，就能帮助引导人们和团队最终做出良好的权衡决策。
But if you can see through those things, you can kind of help guide people and teams to ultimately make those good trade off decisions.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我很感谢你的回答。
I appreciate that answer.
我喜欢你提到的限制条件，对吧？
And I love where you brought in the constraints, right?
提醒我们，好的想法永远比资金多。
The reminder that there's always more good ideas than there are dollars.
另外一件事我想到了，你提到过那个电子表格，对吧？
And the other thing that I was thinking about is you said that when you talked about, hey, the spreadsheet, right?
电子表格只是一个表象。
The spreadsheet is only a representation.
背后还有更多东西在发生。
There's so much more than that going on.
我们节目上曾经请过一位叫吉姆·库克的人。
And we had a guy on the show by the name of Jim Cook.
我非常喜欢他这样表述。
And I really liked the way he framed this.
他说，电子表格并不是你的产品。
He said, the spreadsheet is not your product.
从电子表格中得出的洞察和行动才是你的产品，基本上是这样。
The insights and actions derived from the spreadsheet are your product, basically.
也就是说，你因为这个表格在做哪些事情？这些事情帮助你做出了哪些决策？
Like, you know, what are the things you're doing because of that, that's helping you make those decisions?
而不是说，嘿，看，我做了一个很棒的电子表格。
Not, you know, Hey, look, I made this great spreadsheet.
大家都来看看。
Everybody check it out.
这通常是我们在职业生涯早期会有的想法。
Which is often what we think early in our career.
哦，我用了一个特别复杂的公式。
Oh, I use this really complex formula.
这不是很棒吗？
Isn't it awesome?
你能简化一下这个公式吗？
It's like, could you please simplify that formula?
没人能理解它。
Nobody understands it.
所以我很好奇，你提到过研究不同的领域。
So I'm curious, you mentioned kind of studying different areas.
你 obviously 在学校学过心理学、战略、决策和组织设计。
Obviously you studied psychology in school, strategy, decision making, organizational design.
在这些领域里，有没有哪本书或文章是你特别喜欢、可以推荐给我们的？
Is there maybe a favorite book or article that you've read in that area that you really like that you could share with us?
嗯。
Yeah.
很难只选一个。
So it's hard to limit it to one.
你可以给
You can give
如果愿意的话，给我们两个。
us two if you want.
那可能还是限制太多了。
That's still probably too much of a constraint.
只要有人需要推荐，我很乐意为你在任何想要成长的领域提供建议。
The invitation always is if folks want recommendations, I'm happy to provide them for whatever situation you're trying to grow in.
我挑两个对我影响特别大的。
I say two that really helped shape me.
一个是《创意公司》，由皮克斯的联合创始人埃德·卡特穆尔所著。
One is Creativity Inc, written by Ed Catmull, who was the co founder of Pixar.
这本书不仅生动讲述了皮克斯公司的发展历程，以及它是如何成长为今天的模样，更是一个关于一个人如何成长为管理者，并逐渐理解如何长期带领高效团队和高效企业的精彩故事。
And not only a great history of that company and how it developed into what it is today, but it's a really good story about how someone developed into a manager and started to appreciate what it takes to run a high performing team, a high performing business over a really long period of time.
所以这本书对我影响深远，因为它传达了一个理念：只要你愿意尝试并理解最终目标，任何人都能学会这些管理技能。
So that one, it was really influential because it talked to, okay, anyone can learn these management skills if you're willing to experiment with it and appreciate what the ultimate goal is.
从心理学角度来看，《思考，快与慢》是其中最好的之一。
And then from a psychology standpoint, thinking fast and slow is one of the best ones out there.
刚开始读的时候有点枯燥，尤其是如果你没有相关研究背景的话。
It's a little bit of a slog to get through in the beginning, especially because not coming out of the history of the research.
但一旦你开始了解这些研究发现，至少你会开始意识到，人类的思维是多么反直觉。
But once you start getting into the research findings, if nothing else, you start to appreciate how counterintuitive thinking can be.
有很多人们日常行为，你可能根本不会相信。
And there's a lot of stuff that people do that you wouldn't necessarily believe.
它能帮助你在日常互动中，当你看到某人做某事时，会去想：为什么这个人这么做，而不是立刻觉得这个人错了、笨或者诸如此类。
And it helps you in your day to day interactions where you go, I wonder why this person's doing that rather than thinking, Oh, this person's wrong or this person's dumb or blah, blah, blah.
你会开始意识到：原来背后存在一些结构和系统在引导这种思维。
You start to think, Oh no, there's actually structures and systems in place that help guide this thinking.
一旦你能看到这些结构和系统，你就更有可能打破它们，并在过程中引入新的思维方式。
And once you can see those structures and systems, you have a better chance of being able to upend it and help insert some new thinking into that process.
很好的推荐。
Great recommendations.
我是《思考，快与慢》的忠实粉丝。
I'm a big fan of Thinking Fast and Slow.
我确实有那本《创意公司》。
And I do have that book on creativity, Inc.
我得把它加到我的书单里。
I'll have to add that to my list.
谢谢你的分享。
So thanks for sharing.
我完全理解只推荐两本。
And I totally understand limiting it to two.
这完全取决于具体情况，真的很难做到，但我只是好奇你最喜欢的有哪几本。
It all depends on situation and it's really hard to do, but I was just curious what a couple of your favorites were there.
谢谢你耐心回答我的问题。
So thank you for indulging me.
今年早些时候，我想是二月，你写了一篇博客，题为《在GoDaddy八年反思中学到的八课》。
Earlier this year, I think it was February, you wrote a blog titled Eight Lessons Learned the Reflection from Eight Years at GoDaddy.
所以你能告诉我们一下，你为什么写这篇文章，希望别人从中获得什么吗？
So can you tell us a little bit about why you wrote that article and what you were hoping others would get from it?
当然可以。
Yeah, you bet.
澄清一下，我觉得我其实是两年前写的，因为那时我还在GoDaddy工作。
Co clarification, I think I actually wrote it two years ago because I was still at GoDaddy at the time.
我通常的做法是，每年在公司里，我都会退一步，反思一下我学到的东西，然后我发现，八年可是很长一段时间。
What I normally do is every year at a company, I step back and just try to reflect on things that I learned and I realized, well, eight years is a really long time.
所以我试着回顾了所有的笔记，详细记录下那些内容。
And so I tried to kind of go back through all of my notes and document exactly what it was.
当我回顾时，我发现这里有一些非常有趣的东西，它们塑造了我对管理团队、管理自己以及职业发展的看法。
And as I was looking at I'm going, there's some really interesting things here that has shaped how I think about running a team, running myself, developing as a professional.
我想知道，把这些分享出来是否值得。
And I wonder if it's worth going ahead and sharing it.
我其实已经分享过一段时间的文章了。
I'd already been sharing posts for a while.
这其实是我个人探索的一部分，目的是为了厘清自己的思路，最初只是为一个读者而写，偶尔也会有一些订阅者偶然看到并感兴趣。
It was part of just my own journey of trying to clarify my thinking really for an audience of one and I occasionally pick up a few subscribers here and there who also want to read it.
但那篇文章只是对我学到的一些快速经验的总结，希望对你也有帮助。
But that one was just kind of a good culmination of like, here's some real quick lessons that I learned and hopefully it'll be helpful for you as well.
明白了。
Got it.
这很有道理。
That makes a lot of sense.
我听说过其他人也说，写作确实能帮助理清思路。
And I've heard other people say that really writing can really help clarify.
我知道当我这么做的时候，确实很有帮助。
I know when I've done it, it's definitely helped.
我并不总是擅长把想法写下来，但我认为，把事情写出来并深入思考确实很有帮助，因为它迫使你超越通常的浅层思考。
I'm not the best at always writing it down, but I think there is something that is really helpful to have to write and think through something because it forces you to think beyond just the general depth we go to.
因此，在这篇文章中，你提到了几件事。
And so in the article, there are a couple of things you wrote.
你提到的第一个观点是‘锁着的门上的头衔’，但这并不意味着你会被邀请进去。
The first point you said was titles on locked doors, but that doesn't mean you'll be invited in.
我敢肯定这背后有个故事。
I'm sure there's a story behind that.
你能谈谈这个观点吗？你是怎么学到这一点的？
So can you talk to a little bit about that point and, you know, kind of how you learned that?
是的，我是通过惨痛的教训学会这一点的。
Yeah, the hard way is how I learned that one.
不幸的是，我们很多人都这样。
Unfortunately, that's many of us.
是的。
Yeah.
就像任何一位年轻有抱负的专业人士一样，我当时对头衔很渴望。
So look, like any young ambitious professional, I was a bit title hungry.
那时，我已经在GoDaddy工作了大概两年。
And so I had been at GoDaddy for I think a couple of years at that point.
我当时负责支持我们的客户服务团队。
And I was supporting our customer care organization.
我接手了一个由三人组成的团队。
I had taken over for a team of three.
我以个人贡献者的身份担任高级分析师，而之前的团队则有一位总监和几位高级分析师。
I was doing it as an individual contributor and I was doing it a senior analyst, whereas the prior team had a director and a couple of senior analysts.
所以做了一段时间后，我觉得不公平：我只是一个高级分析师，但做的工作却和整个团队之前做的完全一样。
So after doing it for a little while, I'm like, it doesn't seem fair that I'm a senior analyst and this whole team was running it and I'm doing the same thing that they were doing.
于是我脑子里开始觉得，我应该找人谈谈。
And so I got into my head that I should really talk to someone.
于是我去找了我老板的老板，向他请教。
So I went and talked to my boss's boss about it and was picking his brain.
我想着也许能让他介入一下。
I'm like, you know, thought I could kind of get him in there.
我说，你看，这个团队之前就是这么运作的。
Said, look, this team was running it.
他们有一个总监。
They had a director.
这有点像是一个总监的职位。
It's kind of a director role.
你不觉得我应该当总监吗？
Don't you think that I should be a director?
你知道，别评判我。
You know, make make not judge.
他只是平静地看着我，说：我可以给你任何头衔。
And he just looked at me really calmly and he said, I can give you any title you want.
但这并不会改变别人对你看法的方式。
It doesn't mean that it's gonna make any difference in how people hear you.
当时，我记得我想，好吧。
At the time, I remember thinking, okay.
我不确定这是否正确。
I don't know if that's true.
但我越想越觉得，哦，你知道吗？
But the more I thought about it, the more I was like, oh, you know what?
这其实是有道理的，因为如果我明天得到了那个头衔，我依然是我。
There is actually something to that because if I get that title the next day, I'm still who I am.
他想教我的是，你确实在做这个角色的部分工作，但更高的头衔是需要赢得的。
And what he was trying to teach me was you're doing some of the work in that role but really the higher up titles are something that's earned.
人们会以某种眼光看待你，他们不只是因为你完成工作才看你，而是你真正超越了角色的范围。
That the people see you in that light where they're not looking at you just to get the work done but you're actually going beyond the scope of the role.
这在我心中种下了一种想法：我要获得晋升，我希望人们反应是，哦，我早就觉得你已经达到那个级别了。
And it kind of instilled this thing in me of, okay, I'm going get a promotion, I want people to react and say, oh, I already thought you were at that level.
这种想法改变了我对这件事的看法：我要在这些会议中赢得自己的位置。
That kind of changed my thinking about it of I'm going to earn my place in these meetings.
我要赢得作为利益相关者可信赖知己的地位。
I'm to earn my place as a trusted confidant of my stakeholders.
然后，如果我得到了头衔，那也很好。
And then if I get the title, that's fine.
但这需要付出很多。
But it took a lot.
而且我认为很多年轻专业人士都必须经历这个过程，因为你以为头衔能打开一切，某种程度上确实如此，因为你不会把某些任务或会议交给某个级别以下的人。
And it was, yeah, I think a lot of young professionals have to go through that process because you think the title is what unlocks everything and to some degree it does because you're not going to give certain tasks or meetings to people at a certain level.
但如果你真的想产生影响——这通常是追求这些头衔的原因——其实有一种方式可以直接赢得这种地位。
But if you really want to have an impact, is mostly why you're going for those titles, there's actually a way that you could just earn your way into it.
那就是让别人以这种眼光看待你。
And it's actually having people see you in that light.
这真是很好的建议。
That is really good advice.
我喜欢最后那部分。
I like the last part there.
你知道，让别人以这种眼光看待你，对吧？
You know, having people see you in that light, right?
毕竟，头衔确实不错。
At the end of the day, yes, titles are nice.
但标题在某种程度上还是重要的，对吧？
And do titles matter to a certain extent, right?
我们都谈论过换工作的事，有时候职位是副总裁、高级总监、总监，而实际上，总监可能比其他两个职位拿得最多、责任也最重，这取决于公司。
We all talk about we've moved jobs and sometimes the role is VP, senior director, director, and the director could be making the most of the three and have the most responsibility just depending on the company.
所以，标题并不那么重要，这一点是有道理的。
So there's something to be said of titles don't matter.
但我非常赞同这个观点，尤其是对职业生涯早期的年轻人：要确保别人把你视为那个角色。
But I really like the point, especially for young people in their career of make sure people picture you in that role.
无论你的头衔是什么，都要以那个角色应有的样子去行事。
Be the person that you need to be in that role regardless of the title.
所以，我基本上是在把自己提升到应有的高度。
So I was kind of basically elevating yourself to what's expected.
真正的要求和老板所说的，远不止头衔所代表的那些。
And what's really expected and what the boss is saying is more than just what the title is.
你被期望做出改变。
You're expected to make a difference.
你是在做这些事，还是只是完成了职位描述中的第一、二、三、四、五点，就觉得配得上这个头衔？
Are you doing that versus you've checked off point one, two, three, four and five on this job description, therefore I deserve the title.
我认为，每个年轻有抱负的人迟早都要以某种方式学到这一课。
That's a lesson I think everybody when they're young and hungry has to learn in one way or the other.
有时候，你不得不在职业生涯中接受平调或后退一步。
Sometimes you have to take a lateral or a step back in your career.
我记得我刚毕业时，收入比我之前还稍微低一点，这和时机以及职位有关。
I remember I came out of grad school making, I think, slightly less than I did before because of the timing and the role.
这确实让我感到很谦卑。
And that was pretty humbling.
但从长远来看，结果还不错。
It worked out well in the long run.
但当时，我心想：你在开玩笑吗？
But at the time, it's like, Are you kidding me?
我到底哪里做错了？
What have I done wrong here?
你告诉我，我花了两年时间和这么多钱，薪水却没变？
You're telling me I just spent two years and all this money and I have the same salary.
我完全理解，我也有过同样的经历。
Totally hear I had the same thing.
当我去GoDaddy时，我在房地产投资信托公司名义上是个经理。
When I went to GoDaddy, I technically had a manager title at the Real Estate Investment Trust.
但在GoDaddy，我的职位是高级分析师。
And I was a senior analyst at GoDaddy.
一开始我还想，我真的应该努力去当经理吗？
And like at first I was like, oh, but should I really be trying to be a manager?
然后我想了想，算了。
And then I went, you know what?
在GoDaddy当高级分析师，长远来看机会会比在一家没人听过的公司当经理多得多。
Like being a senior analyst at GoDaddy, I'm going to have a lot more long term opportunities than being manager at a company that no one's ever heard of.
所以我只好咬牙接受了。
And so I just kind of bit the bullet.
这真的很难。
It was really hard.
我花了很长时间才慢慢克服它。
It took me a long time to kind of overcome it.
但一旦你开始放下头衔，意识到头衔并不代表你，它只是个头衔而已，就会发现有太多机会了，因为现在我们不会被头衔束缚住。
But once you start to let go of the title and realize the title doesn't represent you, it's just a title, man, there's so many opportunities because now we're not like locked into your title.
我只是一个高级分析师。
I'm just a senior analyst.
我只是一个经理。
I'm just a manager.
你实际上可以提升自己，做更多事情，因为你只会去做你认为正确的事。
You actually can elevate yourself and do more things because you're just going to do the things that you know are right.
即使通常这超出了你的职责范围，你也可以承担责任。
And you can take responsibility even if normally it would be outside of the scope of your role.
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
我曾经经历过大约两年的时间，被要求担任总监的职责，却没有获得相应的头衔。
And I had about a two year period where I was basically in a role asked to be the director but not given the title.
而另一个人拥有这个头衔并坐在那个位置上。
And there was someone else who had the title and was there.
我被明确告知：我们真的很希望你来完成这项工作。
And I was basically told, we really want you to do the work.
所以，我当时处于一个非常具有挑战性的境地。
And so that was it was a very challenging situation to be in.
但这让我学到了很多关于管理人际关系的知识，比如，头衔其实并不重要。
But it taught me a lot about just managing relationships for one, you know, and the importance of, okay, title doesn't matter.
你必须把工作做好，做对公司最有利的事，并相应地处理好各种关系。
You got to get the job done, do what's best for the company and, you know, the relationships accordingly.
那确实是一段非常艰难的时期，但我从这段经历中学到了很多。
And it was, you know, it was a very challenging time, but I learned a ton from that experience.
我非常能理解你所说的。
I can really relate to what you're saying.
我认为这对嘉宾，尤其是职业生涯早期的人非常重要。
I think this is important thing for guests, especially those early in the career.
你越早明白头衔并不重要，就会越顺利。
The earlier you learn that titles don't matter, the better off you'll be.
所以我想花几分钟谈谈这一点，因为我觉得这对人们学习这一课非常关键。
So I just wanted to spend a few minutes on that because I think it's really important for the people learn that lesson.
稍微换个话题，你提到的另一件事，我知道这在你的网站上有提及，我也稍微了解了你一下，你非常推崇决策框架。
Kind of shifting gears a little bit away from that, another thing you talk about, I know it's kind of in your website and just learning a little about you, you're a big fan of decision frameworks.
你总是倾向于使用某种框架来指导你的工作。
You're like kind of having a framework to guide your work.
这个问题有两个部分，首先是：为什么你觉得框架对你工作和决策如此有价值？
This will be a couple part question, but the first is why do you find framework so valuable to help you in your work and help you make decisions?
为什么你总是希望有一个框架来帮助你？
Why do you always kind of want to have a framework to help you?
这部分可能只是我的思维方式而已，对吧？
Part of this is probably just how I think, right?
比如，当我开始感到压力时，我的注意力就会变得狭窄，只专注于眼前的事情，但后来我意识到，我忽略或忘记的是，这些挑战很可能之前就有人遇到过，只是形式不同或公司不同而已。
Like if I, when I started to get stressed, I start I start to narrow my focus and I start to really think about just the thing that's in front of me and I realize that what I'm neglecting or what I'm forgetting is that these challenges have probably been encountered before whether in like a different flavor or in a different company.
大多数事情都是重复发生的。
There's most things are on repeat.
但另一点是，它能帮助你跳出自己惯常的决策模式。
But the other thing is is that it helps you to break out of what your normal default decisions are.
有时候你惯常的决策是正确的，但更多时候，当你身处紧张时刻，试图应对问题时——尤其是财务规划与分析团队在做决策时，通常是因为情况艰难，你正试图决定：我们该不该承担这个风险？
Sometimes your normal default decision is right, but more times than not when you're in the heat of the moment and you're trying to deal with something and typically when FP and A is trying to make decisions, it's because times are tough and you're trying to figure out like, should we put this risk in there?
我们该不该对冲？
Should we hedge that?
我们该不该逼团队进一步削减开支？
Should we push the team to cut more expenses?
不管这些具体问题是什么，停下来想一想，问问自己：我们是否应该引入其他视角？这真的很有帮助。
Whatever those things are, it really helps to take a beat and just think, okay, are there other perspectives we should bring into this?
在我们做出决定之前，还有没有其他方式可以思考这个问题？
Are there other ways we could think about this before we make that call?
因为你最终希望对自己的决定充满信心，并确保这个决定具有持久性。
Because you want to be ultimately want to be confident in the decision that you make and you want to make sure that the decision has some staying power to it.
所以这就是我喜欢这些做法的原因——它能帮助你换一种方式思考，站在不同的角度，确认你当前所走的路是否真的是正确的。
So that's kind of why I've enjoyed those things is it helps you to just think differently and put yourself in a different perspective and just confirm whether or not the path that you're on feel like the right one.
当我听你回答时，我想起了《思考，快与慢》中的系统一和系统二。
As I listened to you give that answer, I thought of thinking fast and slow, thing one, thing two.
很多时候，我们最初直觉给出的答案并不正确。
And just the idea that often initially what we think the answer will immediately give is not right.
花一点时间思考和澄清的重要性。
The importance of taking a minute to think and clarify.
说到这一点，当你使用决策框架时，有没有一些你特别喜欢的？
And kind of speaking to that, when you use a decision framework, do you have some favorites you like to use?
在做决策时，有没有哪一个框架是你反复回头使用的？
Is there one that you find yourself turning back to again and again as you're trying to make decisions?
嗯。
Yeah.
可能有几个。
There's probably a few.
我来列举一些。
I'll run through some.
其中一个是我喜欢称之为“玉米卷 vs. 卷饼”的方法。
So one is this one that I like to call tacos versus burritos.
基本想法是，如果你想想玉米卷或卷饼里放什么，其实食材基本相同，但它们却非常不同。
And the basic idea is that if think about like what goes into a taco or burrito, it's effectively the same ingredients, but they're very different.
所以如果你想要一个玉米卷，然后说：‘你能给我做一个玉米卷吗？’
So if you wanted a taco and you said, can you make me a taco?
我想要这个。
I want this.
我想要一个饼皮、肉和奶酪。
I want a tortilla and meat and cheese.
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然后你得到了一个卷饼。
And then you got a burrito.
你可能会有点失望。
You'd probably be kind of disappointed.
你会觉得，这根本不是我想要的。
You're like, this isn't really what I wanted.
在商业决策中，这种情况经常发生，无论是企业领导者还是组织，他们都会说：我们想要这个东西。
This happens all the time in business decisions where whether it's a business leader or an organization, they say, we want this thing.
这是所有需要的要素。
Here's all the things.
我们会把它实施下去。
We're gonna put it in place.
然后假设只要所有成分都具备了，事情就会自然而然地发生。
And then assume that because all the ingredients are there, it'll just magically happen.
这是一种‘建了就会来’的心态。
It's a build it and it will come type of thing.
但这并不是事情的实际运作方式。
And that's not really how it works.
因此，当你应用这个框架时，你关注的不仅是有哪些要素，还有实际的流程是什么？
So when you take this framework into effect, then what you're looking at is not only what are the ingredients, but what's the actual recipe?
所有这些是如何结合在一起的？
How is it all coming together?
为了更具体一些，想象一下，如果一个组织因为未能达成目标而陷入困境，无论是OKR、预算目标还是其他任何目标。
To make it a little bit more tangible, think about if an organization is struggling because they're not hitting their targets, whether it's OKRs or budget goals or whatever.
他们说：你知道我们需要什么吗？
And they say, you know what we need?
我们需要每月的业务复盘。
We need monthly business reviews.
每个优秀的公司都会进行每月的业务复盘。
Like every great company does monthly business reviews.
我们需要的就是这个。
The thing that we're gonna need.
我们会确保这些会议每月都按时安排。
We're gonna make sure that they're scheduled every month.
我们会让这些人参加会议。
We're gonna have these people in the meeting.
他们需要来参加，并且准备一份幻灯片。
They need to come in, and they need to have a slide on.
各位，这个、这个和这个，他们全都安排好了。
Guys, and this and this and this, and they set it all up.
然后会发生的是，这些会议会持续相当长一段时间。
And then what happens is you have these meetings that go on for a while.
大约六个月后，每个人都开始问：这些会议真的有人从中获益吗？
And then after about six months, everyone goes, is anyone getting any value out of these meetings?
这些会议对任何人有帮助吗？
Like, are we is this working for anyone?
问题是，我们根本没有明确最终的目标是什么。
And the problem is that we didn't actually specify what's the outcome.
我们在这类会议上想要达到什么目标？
What are we trying to get to at these meetings?
我们只是说需要每月进行业务回顾。
We just said we want monthly business reviews.
如果仅仅是确保这些目标可实现，就真的需要让整个组织都参加每月的业务回顾吗？
And if it was as simple as we want to make sure that those targets are achievable, do need to bring the whole organization in for monthly business review?
也许需要，也许不需要。
Maybe, maybe not.
但如果你能区分出食谱和食材，并确保两者都得到满足，你就更有可能获得真正想要的结果，而不是仅仅得到一些相关但最终无法让你满意的东西。
But just kind of splitting the recipe and the ingredients and making sure both are fulfilled, you have a better chance of getting what you want versus just getting something that is related, but ultimately isn't gonna satisfy you.
我喜欢你举的那个例子，关于业务回顾，因为我们常常认为，好吧，我们需要为此开个会，却没有真正思考过目标是什么。
I like the example you gave there, the business reviews, because often we think, okay, we need to have a meeting for that without really thinking through what's the objective.
我们最终想要实现的是什么？
Are we ultimately trying to accomplish?
不仅仅是说，嘿，我们需要达成我们的数字。
Not just, well, hey, we need to hit our numbers.
因此我们需要开会。
Therefore we need a meeting.
走吧。
Let's go.
没错，就是这样。
Yep, that's right.
另一个我喜欢的例子，更多是关于业务合作的，我基本上将其表述为：根本不存在所谓安全的选择。
So another one that I like, and this is more for business partnership is I basically frame it as there's no such thing as a safe choice.
我写过一篇题为《他们只是在追逐安全》的文章，谈到了这一点。
I wrote a post called They're Only Chasing Safety where I talked about this.
但本质上，这个观点是，我们通常会被安全的选择吸引，因为它感觉上最不可能让我们陷入麻烦，无论是业务不会失败、预算不会出错，还是其他任何情况。
But effectively, the idea is that typically we are attracted to the safe choice because it feels like the one that is the least likely to get us in trouble, whether the business won't fail or the budget won't be wrong or whatever it is.
而这些事情的现实是，安全的选择实际上通常是风险最大的选择。
And the reality of those things is like the safe choice is actually typically the least safe choice.
它只是恰好成为了共识。
It just happens to be the consensus.
因此，著名投资者霍华德·马克斯提出了一个二维矩阵，分为‘非共识共识’和‘对或错’。
And so Howard Marks, famed investor, has this two by two of non consensus consensus and then right or wrong.
他的基本观点是，如果你想取得非凡的成果，你就必须正确且持非共识观点，因为如果每个人都这么做，你只能分到一小块蛋糕。
And his basic idea is if you want to have extraordinary results, you have to be right and you have to be non consensus because if everyone's doing it, you can only have a small piece of the pie.
相反，如果你想表现平平或略低于平均水平，那就应该跟随共识，因为无论你是对是错，这两种结果之间的实际差异并不大。
And conversely, if you wanna be average or slightly below average, then you should follow the consensus because then you're if whether you're right or wrong, the actual disparity between those two results isn't very much.
但更多时候，当我们做出这类决策时，并不是为了追求平庸。
But more times than that, when we're making these kinds of calls, we're not striving for average.
我们追求的是更好。
We're striving to be better.
但这就需要你超越那些被视为安全选择的常规做法。
But then you have to push past what is perceived to be as the safe choice.
一个非常好的例子是，虽然现在有点过时了，但在2020年，橄榄球分析机构Pro Football Focus发布了一项统计数据，大致表明：
So a really great example of this, and this is now dated a little bit, but back in '20 I think it was 2020, Pro Football Focus, the publication put out this statistic that basically said, hey.
当处于第三或第四档进攻，且只需推进一到两码即可获得首攻时，成功率最高的战术是四分卫冲球，但这种打法却只被使用了10%。
When it's third or fourth down and you only have a yard or two to go, the the one that had the play that has the most success to get a first down is a quarterback sneak, and it's run 10% of the time.
大多数球队的做法是选择非四分卫的跑球或传球，但这些方式的成功率要低得多。
What most teams do is they either do a non quarterback run or they do a throw, and those have far fewer success rates.
他们推测，大多数教练这样做的原因是因为这看起来像是一个安全的选择。
And they posited the reason why most coaches probably do it is because it seems like the safe choice.
如果大家都这么做，即使你输了比赛，也不太可能因此被解雇。
Everyone's doing it, then you're probably not gonna get called before to be fired when you lose the game.
但你也会看到像费城老鹰队这样的球队，每次在第四档剩一码时都坚持使用‘臀部推’战术，并取得了很大成功。
But then you see things like the Philadelphia Eagles who are out there running the tush push every single quarter when they're on a fourth and one and are having a lot of success.
因此，有时候，如果你真正想要的是好的结果，就必须突破那些看似安全的选择。
So there's this idea of sometimes you have to break past what feels safe if what you really want to have is a good outcome.
这和选择玉米饼还是卷饼是同一个道理。
And that's the same idea of tacos versus burritos.
你选择安全是因为你想表现不错，但安全并不等于优秀，安全只是平庸。
You're picking safety because you want to be good, but being safe isn't good, being safe is average.
很好的例子。
Great example there.
我喜欢这个足球例子，特别是引入了‘臀部推’这种战术。
I love the football example of bringing in that and the tush push.
我再分享一个例子：实施新工具，无论是FP&A平台还是ERP系统，我们经常听到‘选择X、Y、Z不会让你被解雇’，对吧？
And another one I'll share is implementing a new tool, whether it be an FP and A platform, an ERP, we've often heard nobody got fired for implementing X, Y, Z, right?
这是一种安全的选择，无论那个工具是什么。
It's the safe choice, whatever that tool may be.
最终，这在你的情况中可能是正确的选择，但你需要退一步问自己：我为什么选择安全的做法？
And ultimately that may be the right choice in your situation, but you need to step back and ask yourself, why am I doing the safe choice?
没错。
Exactly.
我非常喜欢这一点。
And I really like that.
风险和逆流而行——换句话说，选择非主流方案——才是实现卓越回报的时候。
The risk and the non, you know, going against the grain, so to speak, going with the non consensus is when you can achieve great returns.
因为这正是每家公司真正想要的：超越平均水平的回报。
Because that's really what every company wants is above average returns.
不幸的是，我们所有人随着时间的推移都会回归均值。
Unfortunately, we all regress toward the mean over time.
情况往往如此。
As is often the case.
是的。
Yes.
这就是为什么它被称为平均值。
That's why it's the average.
说得非常好。
Very well said.
你知道这有多麻烦。
You know what it is like.
13个不同的电子表格被发送给23个不同的预算负责人。
13 different spreadsheets emailed out to 23 different budget holders.
多次迭代、版本控制、错误以及来回更新。
Multiple iterations, version control, errors, back and forth updates.
你从来不会真正感受到对合并和收集过程的掌控。
You never really feel in control of the consolidation and collection process.
没错，我经历过。
Yep, I've been there.
停下。
Stop.
深呼吸。
Breathe.
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现金流、外汇兑换、公司间交易，现在都已自动化并保持最新。
Cash flow, FX conversion, intercompany transactions, now automated and up to date.
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接下来我想谈一谈关于团队建设的一些内容。
So the next thing I wanna talk about is a little bit about team building.
你知道，我知道我们的许多听众正在组建团队，努力确保拥有一个高效能的团队。
You know, I know we have many of our listeners who are in the process of building their teams, trying to make sure they have a high performing team.
所以你能分享一下你的想法吗？从你的职业生涯来看。
So can you share your thoughts, you know, from your career?
对你来说，建立一个强大团队的有效方法是什么？
What's worked for you to build a strong team?
你有哪些秘诀能确保团队表现优异？
What's kind of maybe some of your secrets to making sure you get your team performing well?
是的。
Yeah.
我们之前提到过一点，那就是授权。
So we talked about one, which is the the delegation.
强大的团队都具备责任感。
Strong teams are ones that have ownership.
如果团队成员一无所知，就很难真正拥有责任感。
And it's really hard to have ownership if your team doesn't know anything.
如果他们只是部分所有者，或者只看到其中的一部分，他们产生主人翁意识的可能性就非常低。
If they're part owners or if they're only seeing pieces of it, the odds that they're going to have an ownership mindset attached to it is pretty low.
所以这是第一点。
So that's that's one.
我认为第二点是，最好的表述方式是：表现优秀的团队往往是令人愉快的团队。
I think two, and the best way I can frame this is good performing teams tend to be good teams to be on.
团队氛围很有趣。
They're fun.
有趣的形式因团队构成而异，但归根结底，是人们和自己喜欢、能向其学习或一起享受时光的人共事。
Fun has different flavors depending on the makeup of the team, but ultimately, it's folks working with folks that they like, that they whether they can learn from or they're having a good time.
领导者必须培养这种团队情谊，因为这些成员来自不同的背景、不同的地区，尤其是在如今更远程的工作环境中。
And the leader has to build that camaraderie because these are people from different perspectives, from different parts of the world, potentially, especially in this more remote environment.
因此，你必须主动促进跨团队的交流，让每个人每天都能在工作中自在地做自己。
So you actually have to foster those cross conversations and make people feel comfortable being themselves at work every day.
我认为最后一点，我们之前也提到过，就是对‘做什么’要非常明确，对‘怎么做’要非常开放。
I think the final thing, and we talked about it a little bit, is being really crisp on the what and being really open on the how.
我经常思考这个问题，因为通常你对‘做什么’的定义需要比你想象的更加精确。
And I think about this a lot because you typically have to be more refined on the what than you think you should.
比如，有些人甚至会认为，当你明确说明‘做什么’时，这已经接近微观管理了。
Like, I I I think some people would probably even argue it's getting close to micromanagement when you're saying what it is.
但另一方面，你试图定义的正是‘卓越’的样子。
But the flip side is is what you're trying to define is what great looks like.
它应该是难以达到的，因为我们刚刚谈到，大多数事情都是平庸的。
And it should be hard to get to because we just talked about most things are average.
所以，如果你想让团队变得卓越，你就必须清楚卓越是什么样子，然后在事情不够好时明确指出来。
So if you want the team to be great, you have to see what great looks like and then you have to call out when things aren't great.
这并不意味着要用居高临下或批评的方式，但人们需要反馈，才能知道自己相对于这个标准的位置。
That doesn't mean in a condescending way or a critical way, but people need feedback to know where they are relative to that bar.
当他们达到这个标准时，会感到非常有成就感。
And they can feel really good when they get to that bar.
当你能同时做到这三件事时，你就能看到真正的奇迹发生。
And when you're able to do those three things together, you can see some real magic happen.
举个例子，关于第二点——建立团队的凝聚力，我在GoDaddy和Dashlane的团队中常用的一个方法是，在团队会议开始时进行‘玫瑰与荆棘’环节。
Just to give you an example on the second piece of just building the camaraderie with the team, one of the tricks that I use a lot with my teams, both GoDaddy and Dashlane, is opening up staff meetings with what we call Rose and Thorn.
团队中的每一位成员都要分享一件本周进展顺利的事情，称之为‘玫瑰’。
Every single member of the team says a rose or think that something's going well this week.
这可以是个人生活，也可以是工作中的事，任何方面都可以。
That could be personal life, could be work life, whatever it is.
‘荆棘’也是同样的道理，指的是本周遇到的困难，无论是工作还是个人生活。
Thorn, same idea, something that's been rough, work life, personal life, whatever.
然后，我们通常还会设置第三个环节，由某人提出一个随机的破冰问题。
And then we typically have some third category of someone picks out a random icebreaker question.
比如，你最喜欢的电影是什么？
Like what's your favorite movie?
或者，你最常推荐给别人的一本书是什么？
Or what's a book that you've shared most often?
或者各种各样的问题，只是为了更好地了解团队成员。
Or a variety of things just to get to learn about the team.
这样做，尤其是从这里开始，首先让每个人都有机会发泄情绪，或者谈谈他们引以为傲的事情。
What it does, especially opening with it, is one, everyone gets a chance to vent and or talk about things they're really proud of.
所以它能让大家进入正确的心态。
So it gets everyone in the right mindset.
但它也能让大家开始交流。
But it also gets people talking.
而财务人员通常不太爱说话。
And finance people don't typically talk a lot.
但如果你从这个环节开始会议，人们就已经进入状态，你就能看到对话更自然地发生。
But if you open your meetings with that, people are already in the mode and you can start to see conversations happen more organically.
我以前很讨厌开团队会议时自己讲满一小时。
I used to hate that I'd run staff meetings and I'd talk for a full hour.
我会想，各位，如果你们有问题，肯定也有想聊的事情。
I was like, guys, if you've to have questions, you must have things that you want to talk about.
为什么只有我在说话？
Why am I the only one talking?
但一旦我开始让人们在一开始就发言，并通过‘玫瑰与荆棘’揭示他们心中的想法，你就会发现这些事情变得更加自然地浮现出来。
But once I started getting people to talk at first and also help surface up the things that were on people's minds through Rose and Thorn, you started to see these things come up a lot more organically.
所以这只是其中一件事。
So that's just one thing.
它可以是一些小事，但只要你观察你的团队，了解他们的状态，然后思考如何帮助他们认识到卓越在哪里，最终让他们获得优势去实现目标。
It can be little stuff, like, but if you just observe your team and you see where they are, and then you just figure out how do I build them up so that they are seeing where greatness is and then ultimately getting a leg up to be able to reach
明白了。
Got it.
我喜欢这个‘玫瑰与荆棘’。
I like the Rosenthorne.
这是个好主意。
That's a good one.
我知道有个人的做法是，每次会议的前八分钟，让大家把不满都倒出来，然后就结束了。
I know someone who did one where they started doing the first eight minutes of every meeting, get your gripes out because then we're done.
第一，这让大家开始发言；第二，也帮助他们意识到，好吧，我们其实解决不了大多数这些问题。
One, it got people talking, but it also helped them realize that, okay, we can't solve most of these things.
所以我们会把这些事情暂时搁置一段时间。
So we're going to park them after a certain amount of time.
你知道，这也是我认识的一个人曾经用得非常成功的方法。
You know, and so that's another one that I knew someone used to, you know, quite a bit of success.
但我同意你的观点，要让他们开口说话。
But I agree with you getting them talking.
我喜欢你提到的，你希望他们去做自己热衷的事情，或者自己做得好的事情，而不是只纠结于负面的东西，而是尝试兼顾正反两面，激发他们的积极性，并明确告诉他们什么是卓越的表现。
And I like that you've talked about you wanting them to do something they're passionate about or something they've done well, you know, not just dwelling on that negative, but trying to bring in both sides, get them going and then making sure you give them an expectation of what great looks like.
很多人其实并不清楚。
Often people don't know.
他们会觉得：好吧，我只要完成工作要求就行了。
They're like, okay, well, I just got to meet the requirements of the job.
但卓越意味着你要非常主动，超越基本要求。
Well, great means you're really being proactive and you're going beyond that.
你如何优化流程、改进工作，从而为公司创造更多价值，这取决于你们组织的具体情况。
And how can you optimize processes and improve things so that you can provide more value to the business, whatever that may look like depending on your organization.
没错。
That's right.
所以我们喜欢问每个人这个问题。
So this is a question we like to ask everybody.
能跟我讲讲你职业生涯中经历过的一个战略时刻吗？
Tell me about a time in your career when you experienced what I'll call a strategic moment, right?
一个后来帮助你推动组织变革的战略性洞察。
A strategic insight that later empowered you to drive change within the organization.
是的，我来举一个例子。
Yeah, so here's one.
当我还在支持客户服务团队时，我们正经历一次转型。
Back when I was supporting the customer care organization, we were recently going through a transition.
原来的客服负责人离开了。
The old care leader had exited.
我们引进了一位新领导，他的职责之一就是重建团队的士气。
We had brought in a new leader and one of the things that he was responsible for was rebuilding the morale of the team.
客服行业是一个非常艰难的行业。
Customer support is a really tough business to be in.
你一直在听客户抱怨。
You're listening to your customers gripe all the time.
通常人员流动率很高，但GoDaddy在员工满意度方面一直表现良好，不过近年来却下滑了。
You generally have high turnover But GoDaddy had really good marks in terms of employee satisfaction but in recent years it had fallen.
于是这位领导就说：好吧，得弄清楚到底发生了什么，于是我们开始进行一些倾听之旅。
So this leader was like, okay, need to figure out like what's going on and we kind of started doing some listening tours.
其中一个问题浮出水面，那就是薪酬方案。
And one of the things that came up was the compensation plan.
很多人对薪酬方案提出了抱怨，这不仅涉及财务影响，也影响到员工情绪。
And there were a lot of complaints about that which has financial implications as well as employee implications.
所以最初从会议上提出的建议是：我们必须彻底重新设计薪酬方案，因为每个人都讨厌它，而且他们很不满。
So the initial proposals from the table is, okay, we have to completely redo the compensation plan because everybody hates it and they're upset.
只要我们解决了这个问题，大家就会开心了。
And once we fix this, everyone will be happy.
这时候，你的塔可和卷饼之类的东西就应该开始发出警报了：等等，等等，等等，我们是不是得重新核对一下？
And this is where your tacos and burritos things should start flagging where it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute, like are we We just double check.
所以我亲自找了几位客服人员交谈，发现他们讨厌的并不是计划的结构，而是他们无法在月中看到自己的表现如何。
So I actually went and grabbed a few support agents myself and was talking to them and what I found was it wasn't the structure of the plan they hated, it was the fact they couldn't see how they were doing during the month.
这是一个月度薪酬计划，但他们直到月底才知道自己的结果，于是他们不得不自己在旁边用电子表格来管理。
It was a monthly compensation plan but they wouldn't know how they landed until the end and they were keeping spreadsheets off to the side trying to manage it themselves.
于是我们意识到，天啊，我们其实不需要对薪酬计划做任何投入，只需为他们搭建一个可以随时查看的仪表盘就够了。
So we realized, oh wow, we can actually turn things around zero investment in the compensation plan other than building them a dashboard that they can go look at.
而这一举措，连同其他一些改变，开始真正扭转整个组织的局面。
And that amongst other things started to really turn the entire organization around.
这为我们成功奠定了基础，因为我们无需向公司申请任何资金。
And it set us up for success because we didn't have to go ask the company for any money.
我们只需要深入挖掘是什么在驱动业务，然后弄清楚：我们该如何让它变得更好？
All we had to do was really dive deep into what was driving the business and then figure out, okay, like how do we make this better?
薪酬计划的透明度至关重要。
Visibility of comp plans is huge is one thing.
我确实学到一点，经过多年计算这些数据并进行这些沟通后，我知道销售们最讨厌的就是无法理解自己能赚多少。
I've definitely learned that having calculated them for a number of years and having those calls and, you know, salespeople hate when they can't understand what they're gonna earn.
完全正确，我们所有人都这样。
A 100% as we all do.
如果我们所有人都有一个奖金计划，里面列出了所有指标，但直到月底才告诉我们表现如何，我们会想：这对我来说可不是什么好待遇。
If we all had a bonus plan where it was like, here's all these metrics, but we'll tell you at the end of the month how you did, we go, this is not like a great deal for me.
没错，完全正确。
Yeah, a 100%.
我们所有人都一样。
It's all of us.
我曾听人说过，销售计划其实就是他们的操作手册，他们会按照它来执行。
I've heard someone say, you know, the sales plan is basically their playbook and they're going to follow it.
所以请确保你交给他们的是一份你希望他们遵循的操作手册。
So make sure you're giving them the playbook you want them to follow.
没错。
Yeah.
你希望它易于理解，否则他们只是在碰运气。
You want to make it easy to understand because otherwise they're just playing the lottery.
他们会做自己想做的事，然后看看月底能不能拿到钱。
They're going to do what they're going do and they're going to see if they want any money at the end.
而你真正希望他们感受到的是掌控感。
And what you really want them to do is feel control.
我认为这对每一种员工都适用，无论是否有可变薪酬，这回到我们刚才讨论的内容。
And I think that's actually true for every type of employee, whether the variable comp or not is going back to what we're just talking about.
他们想知道什么是优秀，以及如何实现它。
They want to know what great looks like and they want to know how achieve it.
他们也希望有一个反馈机制，无论是薪酬还是其他方式，帮助他们了解自己离优秀还有多远。
And they want to have some feedback mechanism, whether that's compensation or whatever else, help them know how far away are they from great.
说得很好，我很欣赏你特意找一些人单独交谈，而不是直接说‘我们重新设计薪酬计划吧’。
Well said, and I love that you went and pulled some people aside and asked them instead of, well, let's just rebuild the comp plan.
因为通常当人们听说要重新设计薪酬计划时，第一反应就是：‘哦，你们要削减我的工资。’
Because generally when people hear the comp plans being rebuilt, the first thing they think is, oh, you're cutting my pay.
没错。
Exactly.
所以现在你又面临另一个问题需要处理。
And so now you got another problem you have to deal with.
即使你并不是这样做的，这也是最初的反应——啊，管理层又来了。
Even if that's not what you're doing, that's the initial response, the automatic, ah, there goes management again.
他们不想给我们付那么多钱。
They don't want to pay us as much as they're paying us.
是的。
Yeah.
关于一个稳妥的选择。
About a safe choice.
如果大家都讨厌它，那就改掉它，以后再处理人们讨厌的问题。
If everyone hates it, just change it and we'll deal with how people hate it in the future.
我们来处理下一个他们讨厌的版本。
We'll deal with the next version they hate.
嗯，那就是
Well, That's
我很欣赏这个回答。
I appreciate that answer.
谢谢。
Thank you.
接下来这一部分是我们所谓的‘互相了解’环节。
So this next section is what we call the get to know you section.
对于这些问题，每个回答你最多只有三十秒的时间。
So you get no more than thirty seconds for each answer for these questions.
第一个问题是：有什么关于你的有趣或独特之处是很少人知道的？
So the first question is, what is something interesting or unique about you that not many people know?
我认为最独特的一点是我平时会做一些数字绘画。
So I think probably the most unique thing is that I do some digital drawing on the side.
我最近没怎么画了，因为我有个两岁的孩子，她占用了我所有的时间。
I haven't done it in a while because I have a two year old and she takes up all of my time.
但在她出生前，我会做一些插画，还曾经短暂地经营过一家店。
But before her, I would do some illustrations, some stuff and actually for a little while manage a store.
我没有为它做过任何营销。
I didn't do any marketing for it.
所以我的销量其实不多，但这让我有机会更深入地探索艺术的一面。
So I didn't really have a lot of sales, but it was just a fun opportunity to kind of play with that more artistic side.
你画的是什么类型的画？
What kind of drawing?
是有一种特定的风格，还是什么都画一点？
Like, is there a particular style or thing that you like to draw or a little bit of everything?
我只是在尝试。
I was playing with it.
都是数字艺术。
It was all digital art.
我会说那是非常简单的数字艺术，因为我是自学的。
I would say very simplistic digital art since I'm self taught.
只是随便玩玩不同的角色，可能更偏向卡通风格，总之就是些好玩的绘画内容。
But just kind of playing with, like, different characters, probably more cartoony more than anything, but just kind of fun stuff to draw.
太好了。
Great.
不。
No.
这真是个很棒的爱好。
That's that's a great hobby to have.
拥有一件事，当你需要释放压力或只是放松时可以去投入，总是很有趣的。
It's always fun to have something to a channel you can go to when you need to let off some steam or just relax.
完全正确。
A 100%.
下一个问题。
Next question here.
如果你可以见到世界上任何一个人，无论生死，你会见谁？为什么？
If you could meet one person in the world, dead or alive, who would you meet and why?
这真是个难题。
That's a tough one.
我想我一定会选沃尔特·迪士尼。
I think I would have to go with Walt Disney.
所以我开始对他产生兴趣。
So I started getting interested in him.
我妻子是个狂热的迪士尼粉丝。
My wife's a huge Disney fan.
在女儿出生前，我们每年都会去迪士尼乐园一两次，有时候甚至两次以上。
Like we were going to Disneyland like once a year, sometimes twice a year before my daughter was born.
但你知道，我开始去研究他，逐渐欣赏他作为创新者的非凡之处，而不仅仅是他在艺术形式上的突破。
But I you know, I started kind of researching and I started to appreciate what an innovator he was and not just for pushing art forms to the level that he did.
他是第一个将音乐和声音融入动画的人，做了很多开创性的工作，同时作为一个艺术家，他还成为了优秀的管理者，建立了一个庞大的组织。
First one to make animation with music and with sound and all kinds of things but also how he just became a manager, built an organization as an artist.
这真是个非常精彩的故事，从他身上学到了很多宝贵的经验。
It was just a really cool story and had a lot of good learnings from him.
所以我特别希望能花点时间多了解一些，也许还能为女儿要一张米奇的画。
So I'd love to be able to spend some time learning a little bit more and maybe get a Mickey drawing for my daughter.
米奇的画会很有趣。
The Mickey drawing would be fun.
我很好奇他会如何看待今天的公司，毕竟现在和他当初创建的已经大不相同了。
And I'd be really curious to what he would have to say about the company today, just how different it is than what he created.
你知道吗，他会喜欢吗？
You know, would he love it?
他会讨厌吗？
Would he hate it?
还是会处于中间状态？
Would it be in the middle?
但这会是一场有趣的对话，尤其是我觉得带他回到今天，和他聊聊他对这些事物的看法，以及他会做出哪些不同的改变，一定会很有趣。
But it would be a fun conversation, especially I think it'd be interesting to bring him to today and have the conversation and see what he thinks of things and what he'd do differently.
他无疑是美国历史上的一个标志性人物。
He's an icon in American history for sure.
我会说是全球历史，对吧？
Global history, I would say, right?
我的意思是，几乎全世界的人都知道迪士尼。
I mean, everybody knows Disney pretty much almost anywhere in the world.
下一个问题是关于学习的。
Next question is this is one around learning.
那么，你最近在谷歌、YouTube 或者向 ChatGPT 等生成式 AI 查询过什么与财务、FP&A、Excel 相关的内容？
So what is the last thing you Googled, looked up on YouTube or asked chat GPTgenerative AI about as it relates to finance, FP and A, Excel?
关于谷歌，可能最简单的答案就是寻找更多基准数据，尤其是在这个变化迅速的环境中，试图了解在这个新时代其他公司的情况。
So Google, probably the easy answer is just looking for more benchmarks, especially in this environment where things are changing a lot, like just trying to understand in this new world what other companies look like.
至于 ChatGPT 方面，我在这方面还比较新手。
I'll say on the ChatGPT side, I'm still pretty nice in that.
我正在努力学习并提升自己。
I'm trying to learn it myself and develop it.
但我确实试过，比如：如果我有一个预算，必须从这个日期开始，到那个日期交付，那么一个好的时间安排应该是什么？
But I did kind of play with like, okay, if I have a budget that I have to start on this date and I have to deliver by this date, what would be a good timeline to run this by?
我对结果印象深刻。
And I was really impressed with the results.
所以，我明年的新年决心是更加深入地了解人工智能以及它如何提供帮助，因为我觉得它蕴含着巨大的潜力。
So my kind of new year's resolution for next year is to get a lot smarter about AI and how that can help because I think there's a lot of power to it.
它让我更加远离将模型打印在电子表格或纸张上，而我现在手上正好还有一些这样的东西。
And it certainly moves me even further away from having my model printed out on spreadsheets or on pieces of paper and having some on hand right now.
真希望你能拍下那张照片。
I wish you had a picture of that one.
天啊，40页。
Man, 40 pages.
这太痛苦了。
That's painful.
我很庆幸我没有。
I'm glad I don't.
我肯定。
I'm sure.
谢谢分享这一点。
So thanks for sharing that one.
是的。
Yeah.
网上有很多关于ChatGPT和生成式AI的优质资源，对吧？
There's a lot of great resources out there on ChatGPT and generative AI in general, right?
关键是像你对待预算那样，直接上手学习。
It's a matter of jumping in and learning like you did with the budget.
对于某些问题，它给出的答案常常令人惊讶地好。
It's often surprising how good of an answer it will give for certain things.
当然。
Absolutely.
是的。
Yeah.
下一个问题。
Next question.
你最喜欢Excel的哪个功能？
What's your favorite thing about Excel?
无论是函数还是特性，你都可以随心所欲地使用它。
Function, feature, you can go where you want with that.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得最值得推荐、但大多数人却用得远远不够的是命名区域。
So I would say probably top one that I don't see a lot of people using nearly as much as they should is named ranges.
想想看，很多模型都是这样构建的：某个地方有个支持标签页，然后在另一个标签页里用SUM函数引用列W和列X，这种做法审查起来简直是一场噩梦。
And if you think about how a lot of models are built, you've got a support tab somewhere and then you have like a sum f and a sum f on this tab, column w w, this column w x, like and trying to review it is a nightmare.
但如果你花点时间快速给列命名，就能几乎用自然语言来写SUM公式或其他公式了。
And if you just take the time to real quick name your columns, can write your SUMMS formulas or any of your formulas almost like in plain language.
这样不仅你的老板能轻松审查，你自己也能轻松查看或重写公式，调整输入方式。
So not only can your boss review it really well but you can review it and or even rewrite it to change how the inputs are going.
在GoDaddy和现在的Dashlane，我通过让团队从单纯使用列引用转向使用命名区域，显著提升了建模效率，效果惊人。
The amount of speed I was able to put into our modeling both at GoDaddy and here at Dashlane by shifting people away from doing just column references to using name ranges is astounding.
这本不该这么简单，但它就是这么简单。
It shouldn't be this easy, but it is.
我非常反对使用整列。
I'm a huge fan of not using the entire column.
请别再用 WW、XX 或 YY 了。
Please don't do WW or XX or YY.
与命名区域相比，我通常使用表格。
Versus name ranges, I usually use tables.
我非常推崇表格，但它们的理念是相似的，对吧？
I'm a big fan of tables, but it's a similar idea, right?
那一列有一个命名区域。
There's a named range for that column.
它有明确的结构。
There's structure to it.
这非常重要，你知道吗？要么人们使用区域但每次都要更新，要么他们什么都用，导致公式效率低下、运行缓慢。
That's really important you know, either people do the range and they're updating it every time or they do everything and you have a really inefficient formula that's going to run slow.
没错。
Exactly.
我同意你的看法。
I'm with you on that.
名称范围非常有用。
Name ranges can be very helpful.
当我试图创建动态列表并使用名称范围配合偏移或其他方式实现动态效果时，我特别喜欢用它们。
I love them when I'm trying to create dynamic lists and different things to use name ranges with offset or different, you know, different ways to make it dynamic.
随着他们不断推出的新公式，这变得越来越容易了。
And it's getting easier and easier with all the new formulas they're coming out with.
绝对如此。
Absolutely.
答得好。
Good answer there.
我同意你的观点。
I will agree with you.
请了解WW的人。
Please know WW people.
就是别这么做。
Just don't do it.
我们马上就要结束这里的时间了。
So we're coming up on the end of our time here.
在结束之前，我还有两个问题要问你。
Just have two more questions for you before we finish.
所以第一个问题，如果有人今天刚进入FP&A领域，可能是刚毕业，你会给他们什么建议？
So the first one, if someone was starting their career in FP and A today, maybe fresh out of college, what's the advice you would offer them?
我认为这与我们之前展示的内容有关，就是要专注于提升你的沟通能力。
I think it speaks to what we showed before is really working on your communication skills.
这体现在几个不同的方面。
That comes in a few different flavors.
其中之一就是简化你所传达的内容，尤其是在你职业生涯初期。
One is just simplifying what you're communicating, especially when you're younger in your career.
你的本能是谈论所有导致你即将呈现内容的前因，而不是直接给出结论。
Your instinct is to talk about everything that led up to whatever it is you're going to present instead of just giving the conclusion.
我通常会说，你要卖的是布朗尼，而不是食谱。
I usually frame this as you got to sell the brownie, not the recipe.
没人关心你是怎么做出来的。
No one cares how you built it up.
他们只想知道答案是什么。
They just want to know what the answer is.
专注于简洁和简单，这一点非常重要。
And like just focusing on brevity and simplicity, think is a big one.
另一个方面，也许你不会称之为沟通，但我认为是：确保你为受众而建，而不是为自己。
The other one, and maybe you wouldn't call it communication, I think I would is make sure you're building for your audience, not for yourself.
无论是你的模型、邮件，还是其他任何东西，都要考虑你的受众会如何反应或阅读，并为他们量身打造。
Whether that's your models, your emails, whatever it is, think about how your audience is going to react to it or how they're gonna read it and build it for them.
如果你的受众不太懂Excel，就不要构建复杂的模型。
If your audience is not really Excel savvy, don't build a complicated model.
准确与否并不重要。
Doesn't matter how accurate it is.
他们不会理解的。
They're not going to understand it.
这会让他们难以最终认同并支持其中的内容。
And that's going to be hard for them to ultimately commit to it and sign up for what's in there.
简化它，让他们能够理解，这样你在职业生涯中就能获得更大的影响力和更多的信任，因为你是在为他人而建，而不是为自己。
Simplify it so that they can understand and you're going to have a lot more power enough and quite frankly a lot more trust across your career building for those around you rather than building for yourself.
很好的建议。
Great advice.
我听到的是：保持简洁，学会与人沟通。
I'm hearing in there, keep it simple, learn to communicate with people.
你会学会如何为他们构建，并理解你的受众。
You'll learn how to build for them and understanding your audience.
这些都是非常重要且我们在职业生涯早期常常难以做到的事情。
And those are all really important things to do and something we often struggle with early in our career.
我喜欢这个布朗尼的比喻，我会用这个。
I like the brownie analogy, I'll use that one.
教给我的那个叫‘直奔主题’。
The one that was taught to me was called bluff, bottom line upfront.
直奔主题。
Bottom line upfront.
对，直接点明重点。
Right, just get to the point.
我曾经有一位副总裁，也是总经理，他看着我说：‘保罗，我来教你这个原则。’
And I had a VP that looked at me, a general manager, and he basically said, Paul, I'm going to teach you this principle.
他说：‘然后你可以再添加任何你想加的细节。’
He's like, And then you can add all the details you want after that.
他说这话的时候非常清晰明了。
And it was very clear in the way he said it.
我不读了，但你尽管发挥吧，我知道你是个注重细节的人。
I won't read it, but just knock yourself out because I know you're a detail person.
然后我就说，哦，谢谢。
And it was like, Oh, thanks.
类似的意见，我今年才第一次听到BLUF这个缩写。
I And similar advice, I didn't get the BLUF acronym until actually this year.
这是我第一次听说这个术语。
It's the first time I've ever heard it.
但我一位高管给我的建议是，我只想看一张幻灯片。
But the advice that I got from one of my executives was I only want to see one slide.
你可以准备很多张幻灯片作为支撑或回答问题的材料。
You can have as many slides as you want behind that to support it or to help answer questions.
但我希望你向我展示时，就像你只有一张幻灯片一样。
But I want you to present to me like you only get one slide.
真的，强迫自己限制在这种框架里非常困难。
And man, like forcing yourself into that box was really hard.
但一旦你能做到这一点，你就能真正厘清你的信息，也更容易判断：这个内容是否重要到足以放进这张幻灯片里？
Once you can do that, you can really clarify your message and it gets a lot easier to say like, is it important enough to go on this one slide?
这让我回想起商业世界中我目前最喜爱的一句话。
It goes back to probably in the business world, my favorite quote at this point.
复杂很容易，简单却很难。
Complex is easy, simple is hard.
把一个30页的幻灯片合起来真的很容易。
Really easy to put a 30 page slide deck together.
试着把它们浓缩成一页，传达出与那30页同样的信息。
Try boiling that down to one and conveying the same message as those 30 slides.
这很难。
That's hard.
尽管看起来非常简单，对吧？
Even though that looks really simple, right?
与这个复杂的幻灯片相比，它看起来很简单，但要做到这一点比制作一个大幻灯片要难得多，因为你完全可以把所有东西都塞进去。
It looks very simple compared to this complex deck, but it's much harder to do that than it is to build a big deck because you could throw everything in.
你不需要担心每一个字、每一张图片。
You don't have to worry about every little word, every image.
这到底是什么意思？
What does it exactly mean?
所以我认为，有时我们会忘记这一点，认为复杂是好事，而我们越能简化它，就越好。
And so I think sometimes we forget that and think complex is a good thing and more we can simplify it, the better.
没错。
Exactly.
当你表达的内容简单时，你反而显得更聪明。
You actually seem smarter when what you're saying is simple.
我们总觉得用复杂的术语说话听起来很聪明，但如果没人能理解你，他们就不会觉得你聪明，因为他们根本不知道你在说什么。
Like we think it sounds smart when you're talking about it in all these complexities, but if they no one understands you, they don't think you're smart because they don't know what you're saying.
我不知道。
I don't know.
当我女儿四岁时用‘矛盾’这个词，我以为她挺聪明的，但你知道的。
When my daughter used the word ambivalent when she was four, I was thinking she was pretty smart, but you know.
说得对，说得对。
That's fair, that's fair.
所以我觉得这是个不错的结束点。
So I think that's a good ending spot.
所以我们来问你最后一个问题是。
So we'll ask you your last question here.
如果有人想联系你，想更多地了解你。
If somebody wants to get ahold of you, they wanna learn more about you.
他们最好的联系方式是什么？
What's the best way for them to reach out to you?
所以，我建议通过领英联系我。
So I am, preferably on LinkedIn.
你可以在领英上联系我。
So you can reach out to me on LinkedIn.
我有一个博客，叫 tuts.blog，或者你可以访问我的网站，就是我的名字 taylorotsdal.com，那里有阅读推荐、我的文章，以及其他联系方式，如果你需要的话。
I have my blog, which is tuts.blog, or you can go to my website, just my name, taylorotsdal.com, and you can access reading recommendations, my writings, and other contact info if you want it.
很好。
Great.
好的，我们在发布时会把这三个链接都放在节目笔记中。
Well, we'll put all three of those in the show notes when we release this.
非常感谢你抽出时间。
And thank you so much for carving out some time.
真的很高兴邀请你来做节目，泰勒。
Really enjoyed having you on show, Taylor.
谢谢你的参与。
So thanks for joining us.
嗯。
Yeah.
这是我的荣幸，保罗。
It was my pleasure, Paul.
这太棒了。
This was great.
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