Marketing vs FP&A: adventures in business partnering

如果你想通过收听本节目获得CPE学分，请访问 earmarkcpe.com/fpa。

If you would like to earn CPE credit for listening to the show, visit earmarkcpe.com/fpa.

下载应用程序，完成一个简短的测验，就能领取你的CPE证书。

Download the app, take a short quiz, and get your CPE certificate.

最后，如果你今天喜欢听FP&A这个节目，请前往你常用的播客平台，点击订阅按钮，并给节目打分和写评价。

Finally, if you enjoy listening to FP and A today, please go to your podcast platform of choice, click the subscribe button, and leave a rating and review of the show.

好了，接下来进入正题。

And now, onto the show.

来自Data Rails，这里是FP&A今天。

From data rails, this is FP and A today.

欢迎收听FP&A今天。

Welcome to FP and A today.

我是你的主持人格伦·霍珀。

I'm your host, Glenn Hopper.

今天的嘉宾是大卫·马内拉，他是一位增长领域的高管，拥有二十多年帮助初创企业成长为行业领军者的经验。

My guest today is David Manela, a growth executive who spent more than two decades scaling companies from startups to market leaders.

他曾任Idealy的首席营收官，在公司被Groupon收购前，帮助其营收突破一亿美元。

He was CRO at Idealy, where he helped grow the business past a 100,000,000 in revenue before it was acquired by Groupon.

之后他加入Fiverr担任首席营收官，全面负责公司在IPO前关键增长阶段的收入与利润表现。

He then took the CRO role at Fiverr, owning the top line P and L through a critical growth phase ahead of the company's IPO.

如今，他是Violet Growth的联合创始人，这个平台帮助CEO、CMO和CFO就下一笔增长投入的方向达成共识。

Today, he's cofounder of Violet Growth, a platform that helps CEOs, CMOs, and CFOs get on the same page about where their next growth dollar should go.

你可能在想，为什么我们这个FP&A播客会请一位做市场和增长的人来做嘉宾？

Now you might be wondering why we've got a marketing and growth guy on an FP and A today podcast.

原因就在这里。

Here's why.

大卫整个职业生涯，都是站在财务团队的对立面，负责争取预算。

David has spent his entire career on the other side of the budget conversation from finance teams.

他总是提出资金需求，论证投资回报，努力让CFO办公室信任市场部门提供的数据。

He's the person asking for spend, defending ROI, and trying to get the CFO's office to trust the numbers coming out of marketing.

他亲眼见过这种协作关系运作得多么出色，也见过它如何彻底崩塌。

He's watched that relationship work brilliantly and watched it fall apart.

所以今天，我们换个角度来聊。

So today, we're flipping the script.

我们要搞清楚，负责收入的负责人到底需要财务团队提供什么支持，哪些地方财务帮得上忙，哪些地方反而成了阻碍，以及双方怎么合作才能做出更好的增长决策。

We're gonna find out what a revenue leader actually needs from FP and A, where finance teams help, and where they get in the way, and how both sides can build something that drives better growth decisions.

不管你现在是不是在和首席营销官紧密合作，还是正在琢磨怎么评估市场投入，这期内容都特别适合你。

Whether you're partnering with the CMO right now or trying to figure out how to evaluate marketing spend, this one's for you.

大卫，欢迎来到节目。

David, welcome to the show.

很高兴见到你。

Nice to see you.

能来真是太好了。

I'm glad to be here.

这太棒了。

This is great.

你知道，虽然这个节目主要是面向财务规划与分析的，但我特别喜欢跟其他部门、顾问，还有那些视角不太一样的人聊天，因为我觉得财务圈有时候容易困在自己的框框里，只顾着埋头往前走。

You know, we're obviously the show is for FP and A, but I really like talking to other departments and and consultants and people that have a slightly different lens because I think sometimes in finance, we can get stuck in our lane and we're just trucking down our same path.

说到业务伙伴这一块，我确实挺了解的。

And I I mean, I know the whole thing with business partnering.

我们本来就应该跳出这种模式。

We're supposed to get out of that mode.

但说实话，很多时候你还是会不自觉地顺着自己汇报线的那套流程走。

But really, sometimes you just you're gonna default to the chain of command that you roll up to, I think.

非常高兴你能来，咱们好好聊聊这个话题。

So super excited to have you on it and dive into this.

我也是。

Same here.

你职业生涯一直都在增长和市场领导岗位上，但最初是从审计做起的。

So you spent your career in growth and marketing leadership, and you started in audit.

我也很想听听这部分经历。

I I wanna hear about that too.

你能跟我们讲讲你的职业历程吗？

But could you walk us through your journey?

你九十年代末就在做直邮营销，后来还把Idealy和Fiverr这样的公司做起来了。

I mean, you were doing direct mail in the late nineties and then scaling companies like Idealy and Fiverr.

你的职业生涯真的非常了不起。

I mean, you've had a kind of a remarkable career.

能不能跟我们聊聊你的经历？让大家更清楚你的背景。

So if you could walk us through that just to kinda get everybody to understand where you're coming from.

是的。

Yeah.

我一开始是在商学院读书，然后……

I start I started in so I did my business school.

我不是来自布鲁克林。

I I don't come from Brooklyn.

我来自布鲁克林西边，那个国家叫法国。

I come from West Of Brooklyn, country called France.

在法国，读完商学院和历史学硕士之后，我进了家叫Cooper's and Librand的审计公司。

And in France, after business school and the master of history, I started in an audit firm called Cooper's and Librand.

如果你把这两点结合起来，就会明白，我从事这一行已经超过二十年了。

And if you put one and one together, you know now that I've been doing that for more than much more than twenty years.

明白了。

Okay.

对。

Yeah.

后来，我在科珀斯与利伯兰特会计师事务所工作了一段时间，之后决定休整一下，去了美国，在一家直销公司做了实习，那家公司九十年代末通过邮购目录销售奢侈品。

So Cooper's and Liberant auditing firm then decided to take a break, went to The US, had a great internship in a direct mail company, a direct to consumer company selling luxury goods through catalog in the late nineties.

我在那里发现，直销本质上是一个数字游戏。

And what I discovered there is that direct marketing was a number game.

营销的关键在于同时掌握获客成本和客户终身价值。

Marketing was about understanding both the cost of acquiring a customer and the lifetime value of customer.

那时候你如果还记得，寄出一份邮寄广告的成本很高，尤其是寄给奢侈品潜在客户的，光是邮费就要三块零四美分到五美元，这还没算上真正拿到客户呢。

At that time, if you remember, when you send a direct mail piece, your cost of sending a piece, which was luxury, so it was $3.04, $5 a piece to send out to prospect even before acquiring the customer.

所以很早我就意识到，对营销来说，这本质上是个财务问题。

So very early on, the marketing problem for me became a financial problem.

所以，我就是用这种方式开启了自己的旅程，而这条路我至今还在走。

So that's how I attacked my journey that I'm still that I'm still on.

从审计到直效营销，后来互联网来了，我就开始担任风险投资支持的高增长公司的首席营销官和首席营收官。

So auditing, direct marketing, then Internet came along, started to be a CMO, CRO of venture backed growth companies.

Ideei 的亮点之一，是我们登上了《Inc.》500强增长企业榜单的榜首。

You know, the claim of fame of Ideei is that we landed the number one spot in the Inc.

我们排在了增长企业榜单的第一名。

500 growth list.

具体的年份我记不太清了。

I don't remember the year.

大概是2010年初左右吧。

It's in it's early two thousand and ten, something like this.

为什么会这样呢？

And why?

因为我们能非常高效地运用营销预算。

Because we were able to deploy marketing dollars in a very efficient way.

在Ideei的时候，我同时负责营销团队和商品团队，这特别有意思。

And then, you know, at Ideei, I both ran, which was very interesting, both the marketing team and the merchandising team.

不仅要花预算去获取客户，还要花预算去采购要卖的商品。

So not only deploying the dollars to acquire the customer, but deploying the dollars to acquire the goods to sell to the customer.

那段经历让我深刻理解了利润率在损益表里的关键作用，折扣对客户终身价值的影响，以及它如何冲击损益表，更重要的是，如何影响资产负债表。

So very strong learning school when it comes to margin and the importance of margin in your P and L and the importance in discounting in your LTV, in your lifetime value behavior, and what it can do to your P and L, but more importantly, to your balance sheet.

我就不聊库存了。

I will not talk about inventory.

随着职业发展，我对各种概念越来越反感。

As my career progressed, I became allergic to concepts.

我对纸张也过敏了，因为之前做了太多直接邮寄广告。

I became allergic to paper because I did too much of direct mail.

我对库存线也避之不及，因为在零售业待得太久。

I became allergic to inventory line because I spent too much time in retail.

后来我决定去Fiverr，那是个纯数字优先的产品。

And then I decided to go to Fiverr, which was a digital first product.

从我们刚开始做服务，一直到他们上市前，那都是一个自由职业者平台。

It's a freelance marketplace from the moment where we were in service a to right before they went public.

我把这些经验和知识全都带到了自己创办的公司里，先是Exact Use，后来是Violet Growth，现在我们把这些深度经验应用到合作的企业身上。

And all of that knowledge and experience, I decided to bring it in building my own company, Exact Use, and then Violet Growth, where we now bring that depth of knowledge to companies that we work with.

我觉得这真的很有趣，也很有价值，因为它让你能从另一个角度去理解和思考问题。

I think that that's that's really interesting, and I think it's it's valuable and because it gives you a different perspective and way to think about it.

但你曾经对营收端负有损益责任，这一点在很多公司里其实并不常见。

But the fact that you had P and L responsibility for the top line, I think that's not a 100% common in companies.

我想知道，当你真正掌控了损益表，会不会改变你对支出和预测的看法？

And I'm wondering, how did owning that PNL, did it change the way that you thought about spending and forecasting?

我的意思是，当你不只是盯着收入端，还要同时看成本端的时候，感觉会有什么不同？

I mean, when you're looking at not just this is our top line, but you're looking at the at the cost side as well?

是的。

Yeah.

我想说一件事，可能你会有共鸣：从另一个角度看，营销其实是个资本配置的问题。

So I I'll say something that maybe will resonate with you, which is on the other side, which is marketing is a capital allocation problem.

这很简单。

It's simple.

我投了一美元。

I'm putting $1 in.

我得收回一定数额的回报。

I need to get a certain amount of dollars out.

营销是一种投资。

Marketing is an investment.

它不是成本。

It's not a cost.

如果我们认同这些前提，你作为财务负责人，我作为增长负责人，我们就得各自做好对营销效果的衡量。

If we agree on those premises, you as a financial leader and me as a growth leader, then we need to do our part to measure marketing correctly.

问题在于，营销不是我每月财报上看到的数字，而是我今天投了什么，明天能拿到什么。

Then the problem becomes marketing is not what I see in my PNL every month, is what did I invest today and what I get tomorrow.

这意味着每个环节都得升级。

It means that every part needs to upgrade.

所以市场团队必须能用你的语言沟通。

So the marketing team needs to be able to speak your language.

在营销上花一美元，和在基础设施、房地产，或者仓库里需要的叉车上花一美元，本质上没什么区别。

Spending a dollar in marketing is no different than spending a a dollar in infrastructure, in real estate, in a forklift that you might need for your warehouse.

你得期待回报。

You need a return.

你得在特定时间内看到回报，还要有明确的回报比例。

You need a return on a specific schedule, and you need a percentage of returns on that schedule.

就把营销的每一分钱都这么对待。

Treat that dollars on marketing that way.

市场团队得明白这一点。

Marketing needs to understand it.

别一上来就谈推广活动。

Don't start with campaign.

先定下财务目标。

Start with the financial goal.

另一方面，财务团队也得认同并落实这个前提。

On the other hand, the financial team needs to agree and act on that premise.

帮我一起定下目标。

Help me set up the goal.

帮我弄清楚，我得给你带来什么样的回报。

Help me understand what kind of return I need to deliver to you.

因为只要我做到了，你就会给我更多资金。

Because if I do, then you'll give me more money.

你不想看到的是，很多公司里，CFO在推动公司增长方面，权力比CMO还大。

What you don't want is in many companies sometimes, the CFO has more power than the CMO to deploy the growth of the company.

你们得合作。

Work together.

为什么？

Why?

因为他们掌握着预算，也握着钱袋子的控制权。

Because they have their they have the budget, and they have the power of the purse.

那些最成功的公司，之所以成功，不一定是因为他们的技术栈更厉害。

Work together and together for the companies that are the most successful is not necessarily because they have a better stack.

也不是因为你有个营销天才或者财务天才。

It's not necessarily because you have a marketing genius or a CFO genius.

而是因为所有团队成员配合默契，目标清晰，能把财务目标转化为业务目标，然后围绕这个目标执行，不断追求下一个增量收入。

It's because all of those members works well together, have a clear financial goal, brings that financial goal into a business goal, and from that business goal, execute towards that goal and go seek the next incremental dollar.

我能理解 CFO 为什么欣赏你，因为你真正站在我们的角度，完全理解我们的思维方式。

I could say CFO is loving you because that is exactly crossing the table and completely understanding the way that we look at it.

很多时候，财务部门会觉得，你们是不是只是把所有东西都扔出去，看哪个能凑效？

And a lot of times from the finance office, it can feel like, are you just trying to throw everything at the wall and see what sticks?

但如果你换种思路，把每笔投入都当成投资，明确要求回报率，考虑机会成本，那情况就不一样了。

But if you take instead, if you take that analytical approach and look at it as it's an investment, you have to have a certain percentage of return, what's, you know, what's your opportunity cost or what's your?

没错。

Yes.

说得对。

That's right.

这时候，财务团队也有责任。

And this is where there is a responsibility from the finance team.

同时，大家也需要认同这个前提，共同努力实现这种一致。

As well, there is a responsibility to agree on that premise and to work together on achieving that alignment.

我觉得很多财务人员确实是这么想的，但其他人未必，所以从成本视角转向投资视角，哪怕只是从财务团队内部来看，这个转变都不容易。

I think a lot of the finance team are thinking that way, but many others do not it's so the bridge between seeing it from a cost one investment, even from a finance team perspective, it's a hard bridge.

对吧？

Right?

这其实是一种行为上的改变。

It's a change of behavior.

就连用词本身也会影响看法。

And it's even in the label.

如果你说这是‘市场投入’而不是‘市场开支’，感觉就完全不一样了。

If you call it marketing spend versus marketing investment, then it feels it feels completely different.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

这就需要每个人都去了解对方在做什么。

And those require everyone to learn what's on the other side.

对吧？

Right?

收入其实只是客户群体行为的一种滞后指标。

Understanding revenue is only a lagging indicator to cohort behavior from your customers.

对吧？

Right?

你可以从一个表面的角度来看，比如我的平均订单金额、每单商品数量、平均零售价，这些数据加起来就能得出订单量和总收入。

So you can look at it in a flat view, which is, oh, what was my average order value, my number of items per order, my average unit retail, and all of this will give me my number of orders and my revenue.

这是一种很表面的看法。

This is a flat way to look at it.

但平均订单金额其实反映的是某个客户群体的行为，而且是很多群体行为叠加的结果。

But AOV, average order value, is also the product of a behavior of a cohort and a lot of cohorts stacking it on top of each other.

而市场部门的工作，就是要理解这些群体的行为，并对它们产生影响。

And the job of marketing is being able to understand the behavior of those cohorts, impact them.

所以，你在用户获取、变现或用户参与方面所做的调整——比如和CRM团队协作提升参与度，和产品团队合作优化变现，和获取团队共同投入资源——最终都会汇聚成管理层认为最适合业务的组合，而CFO则会根据这个组合设定具体目标。

So in turn, the changes you you might make on acquisition or monetization or engagement, engagement with your CRM team, monetization with your product team, investment with your acquisition team result into the mix that the team the management team think it's the right mix for the business and the c where the CFO sets the goal for those particular targets.

我很喜欢这种思路。

I love that approach.

我现在想到你之前提到的另一件事。

And I'm thinking now to something else you that you said.

我记得你好像在领英上说过，CEO和CMO在数据问题上说的根本是两种不同的语言。

I think it was something you put on LinkedIn, but where CEOs and CMOs speak different languages when it comes to data.

我知道你经常谈这个，但我觉得可能还有一种第三种语言，就是财务团队，也就是FP&A团队。

And I'm wondering I I know that you talk a lot there, but maybe even a third language is that finance team, the FP and A team.

那财务团队在这个对话里该扮演什么角色呢？

So where does that fit into the conversation?

财务团队要么能弥合这个鸿沟，要么反而会加剧分歧，把差距拉得更大。

And what role do finance teams play in either they they can either they can bridge that gap or they can be a wedge and widen that gap.

当CMO和CEO在交流时，财务团队突然插进来，这种互动是什么样的？我们又该追求怎样的理想状态？

So when when you look at how CMOs and CEOs talk and then finance interjecting itself in that, what is what is that dynamic like, and what should we be aspiring to?

是的

Yeah.

对

Yeah.

这其实是个很常见的情况：你走进董事会会议室，第一页幻灯片是市场经理展示营销成果，看起来活动表现简直太棒了。

It's a typical situation where you arrive at the board meeting and slide one is, you know, a a marketing manager presenting the result of marketing where the campaign shows incredible results.

但到了第三页，一看财务数据，我们的可变贡献利润率却下滑了。

And slide three, when we look at the financial, our variable contribution margins are down.

今年相比去年的表现，远没有我们原先预期的那么好。

We are not as good as we thought we would be on the year over year.

我们还有很多工作要做。

We have work to do.

这种脱节的情况，你准备董事会材料时经常能一眼看出来。

And that disconnect that happens how many times you prepare for a board deck and that it's clear as day.

如果你准备得充分，就能在董事会开会前发现问题。

If you have if you prepared it well, you catch it before the board meeting.

如果你没提前发现，那就会在会议上暴露出来。

If you do not, you catch it during the meeting.

但我觉得解决这个问题的关键，是大家要共同认可一个统一的框架。

But I think those those the way we try to resolve that is everyone to agree on the framework that's common.

比如，首席营销官必须放弃按活动层级的汇报方式。

So one is CMOs needs to erase a campaign level reporting.

董事会根本不在乎每千次展示成本、点击率，甚至也不关心潜在客户或访问量。

No one cares in the board of cost per thousand impression about CTR, click through rate, maybe leads, visitations.

这些在你们公司里都只是次要指标。

Those are tertiary metrics in your organization.

你真正需要关注的是收入，最好是利润率，还有你的投入情况。

You need to know your revenue, ideally your margin, and you know you need to know your investments.

我认为，CFO和财务团队必须明白，今天的投入未必能在今天看到回报。

And I think for the CFO and for the finance team is to understand that an investment of today does not necessarily have a return on today.

关键是要在预期回报的时间点上达成一致。

And to simply adjust to aligning on that time to impact.

每个企业的状况都不一样。

And every businesses are different.

财务团队可能会认为，今天的投入必须当天就看到回报。

A finance team might decide that an investment of today should have a return today.

很好。

Great.

如果真是这样，那你的增长机会可能就受限于这个条件了。

If it's the case, maybe your growth opportunities are limited to that constraint.

但你也可以制定一个计划，专门关注投入和见效时间。

But you can also build a plan where you just look at the investment and the time to impact.

只要大家就这些原则达成一致，我相信就能弥合会议室里不同高管之间的分歧。

And as soon as you agree on those principle, I believe you can close that wedge between the different executive in the room.

你可以建立一个预测模型，满足所有人需求，同时设定一些关键指标，长期跟踪，确保业务走在正轨上。

You can build a forecasting model that will serve everyone and KPIs that will be helpful to track months in and months out to make sure that your business is on track.

我觉得这个关键指标的部分很重要，因为我会想到那次会面。

And I I think that that KPI part is important because I think about that meeting.

首先，看看营销活动的经济效益和实际进入利润表的部分。

So first off, looking at campaign economics versus what actually hits the p and l.

即使从最基础的KPI来看，比如一个营销活动，我们会说，我们的千次展示成本是多少，每次点击成本是多少。

But even from the base KPI level, from a marketing campaign, it's like, well, this was our cost per thousand impressions and this was our cost per click.

作为坐在那边的财务人员，我看到你们的每次点击成本是七美元，或者某个离谱的数字，我就觉得……

And as the finance guy sitting over there and I see your cost per click was $7 or, you know, some crazy number or whatever.

你们这是在把我们的钱往外扔。

And it's like, you're just throwing our money out the out the door.

我不是说这不对，但这些数字最终转化成了什么？

I don't, you know, don't but then what does that translate to?

有多少人点了链接，最后真的完成了转化？

How many people click end up converting?

所以我觉得，一个营销活动就算看起来很成功——看，我们获得了多少点击，多少曝光，但到底有多少转化呢？

And so I think you can have a successful marketing campaign like, look how many clicks we got, look how many impressions we got, but how many conversions was that?

再来说说这些所谓的成功营销活动。

And then talking about these successful marketing campaigns.

作为财务人员，我坐在这儿看利润表，想把这次活动带来的收入跟它对应起来。

And then if I'm finance, I'm over here looking at my income statement, and I'm trying to tie the revenue that came from this campaign back to it.

我简直要崩溃了，因为根本看不出这笔投入到底带来了什么成果。

I'm having a heart attack because I'm like, I don't I don't see where the results were for that.

我知道它在获取线索，可能效果会延迟出现。

And I know it's getting leads, and it could be, you know, down the line.

确实会有滞后，但我们现在看到的完全是两套不同的数据。

There could be delay in it, but it is It's we really are.

很多时候，我们看到的其实是两个完全不同的现实。

We're seeing two different realities a lot of times.

说得太对了。

That's exactly right.

如果你能明确几个关键指标，比如新增客户数、老客户数、投入水平、获客成本和留存成本，那就已经是很大的进步了。

And I think if you look at the specific KPI, if you agree on number of new customers, number of existing customers, having the right investment level, your cost of acquisition, your cost of retention, those are already a good move forward.

接下来的问题是，能不能算出客户的生命周期价值？

The next one would be, can I put my lifetime value on it?

这个客户在未来十二个月能带来多少价值？

How much that customer will be worth in twelve months?

这个月我并没有带来一万两千个客户。

I didn't bring 12,000 customers this month.

我带来了未来十二个月一千二百万的收入。

I brought $12,000,000 for the next twelve months.

我为此花了两百万，毛利率还保持在百分之五十。

Oh, and I spent $2,000,000 doing it at at a 50% margin.

如果我们能把对话提升到这个层面，你的预测方式也会彻底改变。

So now we are talking because numb if you start to elevate that conversation, your forecasting behavior might also change completely.

作为财务规划与分析分析师，完全没有理由不这么做，当然这也取决于你所处的行业。

There is no reason why as a FP and A analyst and depending on the type of business you are in, obviously, it depends.

对吧？

Right?

那我们来想想，现在在财务规划与分析领域，最典型的业务类型是什么，格伦？

But let's take a complex biz like, what's the most represented in the industry, Glenn, in in FP and A today?

咱们聊聊听众关心的点击成本，就先聚焦在电商上吧，这样大家都容易理解。

Of our listeners, we're talking cost per click and cost let let's stay on ecommerce just to make keep it simple, something everybody can relate to.

假设你做的是电商，比如一家零售企业。

So let's say you have ecommerce, you know, a retail organization.

理想情况下，你应该有三个预测模型。

Ideally, you have three forecasts.

首先是财务团队做的预测，当然，用的是他们那一套方法。

You have a forecast that comes from the finance team, of course, right, using their methodology.

然后是商品团队的预测，按产品、部门、品类来细化；还有市场团队的预测，基于用户群的生命周期价值行为。

You might have a forecast that comes from the merchandising team, right, at the product level, at the division level, at the category level, and you are going to have a forecast that should come from the marketing team that comes from your cohort's behavior based on lifetime value behavior.

如果你能把这三块都做好，财务团队就能掌握战略视角，商品团队看到产品端，市场团队看清客户行为，接下来就是怎么把这三者对齐，找出其中的差距。

And if you do those three things, then suddenly the finance team is equipped with the strategic view, finance, the product view, merchandising, the customer view, and how do we reconcile those three together to understand where the gaps are.

当你在Fiverr做平台业务时，还多了一层复杂性——你得同时服务供需两端。

And I think there's another wrinkle of complexity when you were at Fiverr thinking about the marketplace where you have to have the people that want the service and the people that are providing it.

我猜相关的关键指标肯定很不一样，要搞清楚到底该瞄准哪一边，难度也大得多吧？

I mean, I think the KPIs around that, how how different was that and and how tough was that to figure out who are we going after here?

我们是要吸引提供服务的人，还是购买服务的人？

Are we going after the doers or the buyers?

我特别喜欢这个问题。

I I I love I love that.

当我刚开始接触平台经济时，对我来说，这就像电商的平方。

You know, so when I discovered the world of marketplaces, for me, it was ecommerce square.

这意味着所有东西都翻倍了，KPI的树状结构和层级也分成了两部分：一部分针对卖家或供应商，另一部分针对买家。

It means that everything was doubled, and the KPI trees and hierarchy became one for the seller side and or supplier side and one for the buyer side.

这就是我当时的发现。

So that was the discoveries.

所以我们当时的做法是，明确划分两边各自该做什么。

So where we sold for that was to being very clear as to which side does what.

如果你从用户参与、变现和获客这三个角度来审视业务，我们就能做出决策。

And if you look at your business from engagement, monetization, acquisition lens, we made decisions.

我觉得这真的很难。

And I think it's very hard.

比如在获客方面，推动销量的关键是买家，因为平台存在一种网络效应——买家越多，卖家也越多；卖家越多，买家又会进一步增加。

For example, an acquisition, the way to drive volume was about the buyers because there was an effect, a marketplace effect, where the more buyers we got, we got more sellers, more sellers, more buyers.

但我们还是决定重点放在吸引更多买家上，因为更容易追踪效果。

But we decided to focus on more buyers also because it's easier to track.

你得有清晰的获客经济模型，得有人真正下单购买才行。

You need economics of acquisition and somebody bought something.

如果要在卖家这边做同样的事，那就复杂多了。

If you need to do that on the seller side, more complex.

所以重点还是在买家身上。

So it's a buyer.

但留存和变现，核心其实是在卖家这边。

But retention and monetization is really the seller side.

留存和变现，最终都来自那些卖货的人，这和传统电商没什么区别。

Retention and monetization is going to come from the people selling the product, which is no different than ecommerce.

从二十多年的经验里，我总结出一个关键点：产品和品牌才是真正战略性的杠杆。

In many ways, we build I build my one of the takeaway of those twenty plus years of experience where that the product and the brand are really strategic levers.

对吧？

Right?

因为这关乎用户参与和变现。

Because it's about the engagement and the monetization.

增长更像是一个战术性手段。

Growth is a more tactical lever.

你可以让更多人加入这个系统。

You can bring more people into that engine.

但首先，你得有个出色的系统。

But first, you need to have a great engine.

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我正想回忆一下在Fiverr的时间点。

So I'm trying to remember timing on Fiverr.

你当时待了大概三年半左右。

You were there for three and a half or so years.

所以我常想起公司早期那种不惜一切代价追求增长的阶段。

So I think about those early stage where it's, you know, growth at all costs.

但突然间，当你准备上市时，情况就有点不一样了。

And then suddenly when you're preparing for an IPO, things change a little bit.

你得把财务流程简化，方方面面都得理顺。

You've gotta streamline the financials and all that.

我想知道的是，这种关系是怎么转变的——从一开始只顾着砸钱、搭建平台，到后来突然必须建立各种管控机制。

And I'm wondering the relationship, how that changed from sort of the early days where it's just we're deploying capital, we're trying to build that build out the marketplace, and then suddenly, we need to get controls in place.

所有事情都一下子收紧了，要求严格多了。

We need to you know, everything gets tightens up a lot.

随着风险升高，上市流程一步步推进，增长团队和财务团队之间的关系是怎么演变的？

How did the relationship between the growth team and finance team evolve as those stakes got higher and as you went through all the processes for for the IPO?

我想提一下Fiverr的卡茨，我任职时他是CFO，我离开后他还留任，后来当上了总裁。

One is I give a shout out to Fiverr Katz, which was a CFO when I was there and and was there also after I left and became president.

太棒了。

Amazing.

我合作过的最出色的CFO之一。

One of the best CFO I've worked with.

所以我错过了你的提议。

So I miss your offer.

这是第一点。

That's one.

这才是最重要的信息。

That's the most important message.

但你说得对，这不仅适用于上市，融资时也同样关键。

But what you said is, you know, it's true for going public, but it's also true when you raise money.

同样的单位经济效益思维，对企业的成功，或者赢得下一轮投资人的信任，都至关重要。

The same unit economics focus is really, really critical to the success of the business or to have a successful raise with the next set of investors.

所以我们很早就建立了这套表达方式。

So we set up that language very, very early on.

我们用回收期作为财务、增长和运营预测的统一核心指标，当作行动的指南针。

And the language we set up was really around we started with a payback period as a unifying component of the forecast forecast for finance growth and as an operating north star.

对吧？

Right?

所以现在是该收回成本的时候了。

So it's a time to get our money back.

根据你所处的阶段，我在第一季度可能会接到CFO的电话，他说会给你更多缓冲时间。

And depending on the stage of where you are, I would get a call from the CFO on quarter one saying, I'm going to give you more runway.

到了下一个季度，他可能就说不行了。

Another quarter, he might say, no.

我会给你更紧的预算限制。

I'm going to give you a stricter runway.

为什么？

Why?

因为他清楚当前的资金限制，或者他想争取的资金来源，又或者公司战略上需要展示增长或盈利。

Because he's aware of the capital constraints that are happening or the capital availability that he wants to seek or the strategic imperative of the company to show growth or profitability.

所以我们会一起讨论这些背景，最终的结论就是：在每一组业务中，明确一个实现盈利的时间点。

So the context conversation would be that together, and the takeaway would be a very simple time to be profitable, right, on those each of those cohorts.

所以我们当时就这么做了。

So that's what we did.

我们这么做了，对我来说，这正是早期公司会采取的做法。

We did and for me, that's what an early earlier stage company would would do.

但当你开始花越来越多的钱时，问题就不再是回本周期了。

Now as you start to spend more and more money, the problem is not a payback period.

不再是优化头几个月的表现了。

It's not optimizing for the first x months.

当你进入后期阶段，或者说是中型企业和大型企业时，你就该关注长期盈利了。

As you scale as a late stage company, or you could call it mid sized businesses and enterprise, I would say, then you look at your long term profit.

你真正要达成的是十二个月或二十四个月的目标，以此应对你面临的资金限制。

And, really, what you want to deliver is a twelve month or twenty four month target that heats the capital constraints that you are under.

如果你是私募股权支持的公司，那么你有一个非常明确的时间表，知道需要多久才能实现回报，以及必须向董事会交出怎样的资本回报率。

So if you are a private equity backed company, you have a very clear timeline as to how long it will take or what is the return on capital timeline that you need to deliver to satisfy your board.

这成了设定正确目标的关键指标，也会促使你调整运营指标——不再只看回本周期，而是转向客户终身价值和获客成本，分别在十八个月、二十四个月、二十二个月这些节点上衡量。

This becomes really a critical data point to set up the right goal and to shift your operating metrics, maybe not to a payback period, but to an LTV lifetime value and the cost of acquisition view at a specific at eighteen months, at twenty four months, at twenty two months.

我觉得有一件事很重要，那就是比例固然不错，但我在做商品采购时学到的是，你不能把百分比存进银行。

And I believe one of the thing which is important is that ratio is good, but there is one thing I I learned in in my merchandising days is that you don't bring the percentage to the bank.

对吧？

Right?

你的利润率可能很高，但如果高得离谱，那也带不回银行。

You can have a great margin, but if the margin is too high, that's not what's going to bring to the bank.

你能存进银行的，是真金白银。

You bring your dollars to the bank.

对吧？

Right?

正确的做法是把比例当作运营指标来看，但真正关键的是，这个月你带来了多少毛利，减去多少成本？

And those are way to do it is really looking at that ratio as an operating metrics, but really what matters is how much life cam value dollar did I bring this month minus how much cost?

因为我们关心的从来不是百分比。

Because what we all care about is not the percentage.

而是你未来二十四个月能实际创造多少净利润，这取决于你现在怎么做。

It's the sheer volume of net profit you will deliver in twenty four months from now based on what you do.

为了实现这个目标，你需要建立一套增长体系，用来衡量、追踪并优化这些指标。

And in order to deliver that, you build the growth system to measure, track, improve those metrics.

听你这么说，我突然想起了当年当CFO的日子。

As just saying all this, it's giving me flashbacks to when I was working as a CFO.

那时候我服务的是私募股权支持的公司，现在一想起来，做财务模型时，钱一进来，我们就定目标。

It was for private equity backed companies, and I'm picturing now when you make the model, you know, okay, the money came in.

我们的目标就在这里。

This is what our target is.

我们得有个明确的退出时间表。

We have to have an sort of an exit timeline here.

我们需要达到的增速就是这个数。

This is the growth rate we need to hit.

你拿到实际数据后，就开始做预测，算清楚我们的复合年增长率得达到多少才行。

So, you know, you get your you get your actuals and then you start doing your modeling out to say, okay, we need to grow our, you know, compound annual growth rate needs to be this.

然后你一笔一笔地推算：去年我们花在营销上的钱是多少，占收入的百分之几，接着你慢慢搭出模型，发现得再往上提一提。

And you start penciling in and you say, well, last year, we spent this much on marketing and it was this percentage of revenue and you kinda build that out and you say, well, but we need to bump it up.

我们能不能直接把营销预算往上提一点，然后就开始这种从上往下的测算方式。

Can we just bump marketing spend by the and you start doing this sort of top down modeling.

接着你硬往里塞数据。

And then you you try to shoehorn.

这其实是种惯性做法，我知道，希望大多数运营人员不会这么定预算。

I mean, this is a default, and I know I mean, that's, you know, hopefully not the way most operators are budgeting.

但从私募股权方的角度来看，他们就是这么看的。

But I'll tell you from the PE side, that's what they're looking at.

他们会觉得，你的成本必须保持稳定，或者至少要和收入增长同步上升。

They're like, you need to hold your cost steady or, you know, have it all be in in lockstep as it goes up.

所以你会看到，他们从上往下推，逼着你去想怎么最大化营销投入，同时降低用户流失，达成所有那些目标。

So I think you get this top down sort of pushing of, you know, you need to figure out how to maximize your marketing spend to and reduce churn and whatever all the the goals are that you have with that.

等预算数字第一次传到市场团队手里时，早就已经被调整过了。

So then, by the time the budget numbers, the first run of them even get to marketing, they've already been shaped.

所以我很好奇，站在对方的角度，这种感觉是怎样的？我觉得我已经点出了一些问题了。

So I'm wondering, being on the other side of the table, what that feels like where I think I've just highlighted some mistakes.

是的

Yeah.

真的吗？

It feels like, really?

我接触过很多CFO，他们就处在这种境地，说实话，我觉得关键在于——

And how many CMOs I've talked to who are in that situation, which is, And I really think, and and this is look.

对我来说，最成功的财务和规划团队，都是靠简单直接建立起来的。

The the simplicity for me is the the most successful relationship the the most successful CFO and FP and A leaders I've worked with came across by being very simple.

我很欣赏这一点，也从中学到了很多。

And I love that, and I learned from it.

你刚才说的简单，意思就是别搞得太复杂。

That simplicity, what you said, you know, you don't let's not work at science.

给我一些数据就行。

I'll take some numbers.

我看看。

I'll see.

我知道市场想要什么。

I know what the market wants.

我知道董事会想要什么。

I know what the board wants.

我们需要交付的就是这些，这其实是个目标设定的过程。

This is what we need to deliver, and let's this is a goal setting.

理想情况下，这个纸巾涂鸦的环节应该让CMO也在场，不只是CEO和CFO在。

Ideally, that paper napkin exercise, it's done with the CMO in the room, not only the CEO and CFO.

理想情况下，这应该是一场对话，不是因为非得有人在场，也不是因为他们可能有想法。

Ideally, this is a conversation because not because you need to be in the room, not because just because they might have an idea.

嘿。

Say, hey.

如果我们换种方式做呢？

What if we were to do it that way?

我认为，真正合格的CMO都受过训练，懂得每一分钱投入的长期影响和回报曲线。

I think the the CMO is trained the the right CMO trained to understand the long term impact and the curve of investment for every dollar that are coming out.

如果他们也在场，那就该让他们参与进来，因为和CEO聊一聊，可能会让你发现一些之前没考虑到的层面。

If they are there, then they should be in that conversation because you might create a level you didn't think about by having that conversation with the CEO.

我觉得唯一需要改的，就是这一点。

That would be my the only thing that which should change is that.

如果你在那一刻建立了信任，那之后你就会明白，有他们在场和没他们在场的区别有多大——就像你回家吃晚饭，别人已经帮你点好了菜，但你其实想自己点一份。

And if you build that trust in that moment, then when you operate the difference between being there when this is easy sided and not being there, it's like, you know, when you come home and do dinner, it's like somebody ordered for me, but can I can I order for myself?

我觉得，大家一起参与、被看作是推动增长的力量，这种做法会带来巨大的改变。

Is that I think this this idea of being in there together and being seen as a growth agent would make a huge difference.

当我跟合作伙伴、公司，或者我自己作为高管的实际经验来看，这么做不仅更有效，也更有趣。

And when we implement that behavior with partners or company or in my personal experience as as an executive, this is more fun and and more effective.

我亲身体验过那种情况——所有东西都从上往下压下来，根本没得商量。

So I have firsthand perspective of how that happens where it gets just pushed, everything jammed from the top down.

但我一直在想，与其只是拿到一个数字，然后说‘这显然不是协作的环境’，不如从市场推广的角度来看一些指标，比如：我们现在的基础是什么？

But I'm wondering if instead of just getting that number and say it's this is a situation where it's not collaborative, if, you know, the metrics that you're gonna look at from the go to market side of, okay, this is our current base.

我们的增长率是多少？

This is our growth rate.

这是我们市场营销的预算，还有客户的终身价值。

This is our marketing spend, this is our lifetime value.

所有你在营销中会关注的因素，然后据此制定一个计划，确保在某个时间点前达到这个营收水平。

All the all the factors that you look at in marketing and said, build a plan that gets us to this revenue run rate by x date or whatever.

当然，协作很重要，但你觉得如果市场团队自己单独做，会不会更容易理清思路？他们只看自己的指标，不用掺杂那些非市场因素，比如服务成本，还有客户签约之后才出现的各种问题。

I mean, yes, collaboration is good, but do you feel like if marketing just did that on their own that they would be able to come up with a clearer plan where you're you've got your own metrics, you're not factoring in all the other non marketing things that impacted the, you know, the cost to to serve and and things that come outside of, you know, once the customer is one and and provisioned and and and all that.

我这么说可能绕了点弯子，但我的意思是，如果大家在参加协作会议之前，先统一目标，各自回去和团队制定方案，再汇总起来，会不会比所有人都围坐在一起，边喝酒边讨论更有效？

Is there I I guess my my long way of saying it is, could there be an advantage to if you're coming to those collaborative meetings, if everybody gets the same goals to begin with, goes off, meets with their teams, comes up with a plan, and then merges there, or do you think it all has to really come out together with everybody sitting at the same table around wine?

我在负责利润表的时候，试过很多种预测方法。

So I tried a lot of forecasting mechanism being in earning the the the P and L.

我觉得事情得有先后顺序，而且需要一个把关的人，这个角色最好是CFO。

I think you need an order of things, and it's good to have a sheriff and the sheriff being the CFO.

我很认同这个说法。

I like it.

我觉得这样确实更有帮助。

Like, it's I think it's helpful.

你需要这么一个人。

You need somebody.

CEO在忙别的事。

The CEO is doing something else.

CEO可能会晚点出现，但这个流程得由CFO来主导。

Maybe CEO shows up after, but the CFO needs to own that process.

他们负责规划实现目标的路径。

They are responsible for the for the way to get there.

如果你方法对了，完全可以信赖市场团队。

I think that you can count on the marketing team if you do it the right way.

如果市场团队带着广告活动数据、转化率、点击率、平均订单额、访问量这些来，没什么用。

So if if if a marketing team comes with campaign level data, conversion rates, CTR, AOV, visitation, it's not helpful.

但如果他们带来新客户数量、客户终身价值、终身价值曲线，以及我的收入预测，那就非常有帮助。

But if they come with number of new customer, lifetime value, and lifetime value curve, and output of my revenue, this is extremely useful.

为什么？

Why?

因为当你看客户群时，所有数据都是相互关联的，方方面面都连在一起。

Because everything is connect when you look at the customer cohort, it's everything is connected.

如果你去问CFO或者财务规划与分析团队，说：哎，我差点忘了告诉你。

If you ask the CFO or the FP and A and say, oh, I I forgot to tell you.

我们要把价格上调两个百分点。

We are going to increase our pricing by 200 basis points.

你要是能在提交前告诉我一声就好了。

You could have told me that just before submitting.

那我的客户留存率可能会稍微下降一点。

So so my retention maybe is going to be a little bit lower.

不过我的客单价可能会提高。

Maybe my AOV is going to increase.

不错。

Great.

但你知道吗，你的留存率肯定会下滑。

But you know what's going to happen is that your retention will go down.