632. 我们是从何时开始集体观看纪录片的？

在《魔鬼经济学》广播最近的几期节目中，我们深入探讨了现场戏剧的经济学，并追踪了一部作品漫长进军百老汇的旅程。在该系列中，我们了解到现场戏剧的制作成本变得非常高昂，因此票价也随之上涨。与此同时，上座率却在下降。那么，如果观看戏剧和音乐剧的人变少了，他们都在看什么呢？事实证明，很多人——我是说非常多的人——正在观看纪录片电影。

Over the past few episodes of Freakonomics Radio, we dug into the economics of live theater, and we followed one show on its long journey toward Broadway. In that series, we learned that live theater has become very expensive to produce, so ticket prices have also risen. And at the same time, attendance is falling. So if fewer people are watching plays and musicals, what are they watching? It turns out that a lot of people, and I mean a lot of them, are watching documentary films.

纪录片在流媒体平台的爆炸式增长，以及坚信这是一种大众艺术形式、其全部人气只是静待时机的信念，才是最重要的。RJ·卡特勒是一位艾美奖获奖电影制作人，他制作和/或导演了数十部纪录片。你可能不知道他的名字，但很有可能你看过他的作品。他关于玛莎·斯图尔特的电影《玛莎》在Netflix上大获成功。他最近制作了一部关于年轻流行歌手比莉·艾利什的电影《模糊世界》，以及一部关于老牌流行歌手埃尔顿·约翰的电影《永不嫌晚》。

This explosion of documentary on streaming, the conviction that this was a popular art form and its full popularity was just waiting to happen is what matters most. RJ Cutler is an Emmy award winning filmmaker who has produced and or directed dozens of documentaries. You may not know his name, but there's a good chance you've seen his work. Martha, his film about Martha Stewart has been a big hit on Netflix. He recently made a film about the young pop star Billie Eilish called The World's a Little Blurry and the film about the old pop star Elton John called Never Too Late.

他2009年的电影《九月刊》跟拍了《Vogue》杂志主编安娜·温图尔和她的同事兼有时是对手的格蕾丝·柯丁顿。卡特勒还制作了许多政治纪录片，如《迪克·切尼眼中的世界》和关于奥利弗·诺斯参议员竞选失败的《完美候选人》。以及他的处女作《作战室》，讲述了比尔·克林顿的第一次总统竞选。该片曾获得奥斯卡奖提名。卡特勒最新的项目是Apple TV+上的一部纪录片系列《为荣耀而战》，关于2024年世界大赛。

His 2009 film, The September Issue, shadowed Vogue magazine editor Anna Wintour and her colleague and sometimes antagonist Grace Coddington. Cutler has also made a number of political documentaries like The World According to Dick Cheney and A Perfect Candidate about the failed senate race of Oliver North. And his first film, The War Room, which was about Bill Clinton's first presidential campaign. That one was nominated for an Academy Award. Cutler's most recent project is a docuseries on Apple TV plus called Fight for Glory about the twenty twenty four World Series.

如果你是《魔鬼经济学》广播的常驻听众，你可能也认得卡特勒的名字。几个月前，我们在洛杉矶做了一场现场秀，本应录下来用于这个播客，但剧院未能录下那场演出，这很遗憾，因为那晚我们有两位很棒的嘉宾。一位是好莱坞超级经纪人和企业家阿里·伊曼纽尔，另一位就是RJ·卡特勒。至于阿里，我们几年前在录音室采访过他，第544期。所以如果你想听的话可以找到。

You may also recognize Cutler's name if you are a regular Freakonomics radio listener. A few months ago, we did a live show in Los Angeles that was supposed to be recorded for this podcast, but the theater failed to record the show, which was a shame because we had two great guests that night. One was the Hollywood super agent and entrepreneur Ari Emanuel, and the other was RJ Cutler. As for Ari, him we had interviewed a couple years ago in a studio, episode number five forty four. So you can hear that if you'd like.

但RJ以前从未上过这个节目，所以我们请他在录音室里坐下来再试一次。哦，你是说我们录了这个？是的。我们确实录了。你这机灵鬼。

But RJ had never been on this show before, so we asked him to sit down in a studio and try again. Oh, you mean we taped this? Yes. We did tape it. You wise ass.

今天在《魔鬼经济学》广播中，电影制作人成为了访谈对象，现在开始。

Today on Freakonomics Radio, the filmmaker becomes the subject, and it starts now.

这里是《魔鬼经济学》广播，一档与主持人史蒂文·杜布纳一起探索万物隐藏面的播客。

This is Freakonomics Radio, the podcast that explores the hidden side of everything with your host, Steven Dubner.

你好，史蒂文。你好，RJ。罗伯特·詹姆斯。RJ是什么？杰森。

Hello, Steven. Hello, RJ. Robert James. What is RJ? Jason.

罗伯特·杰森。RJ真是很好的名字缩写。确实是。你知道吗，我母亲坚持给我取名RJ。实际上她给我取名罗伯特·杰森，就是为了能叫我RJ。

Robert Jason. RJ are such good initials. They are. You know, my mother insisted on naming me RJ. Well, she actually named me Robert Jason so that she could call me RJ.

这是她的计划。不让我改名字。她最近去世了。我在她葬礼上讲述的故事之一是，我八年级时暗恋镇上另一所高中的九年级女孩，她叫我罗伯。有一天我回家说，我要改名叫罗伯。

That was her plan. Wouldn't let me change it. She passed away recently. One of the stories I recounted at her funeral was that when I was in eighth grade, there was a ninth grade girl from the other high school in town who I had a crush on who called me Rob. I came home one day and said, I'm changing my name to Rob.

我母亲完全不同意。她甚至不想讨论这件事。罗伯特·杰森·卡特勒在长岛的大颈镇长大。他热爱体育和新闻。他创办了自己的地下杂志，同时也热爱戏剧。

And my mother would not hear of it. She didn't even wanna discuss it. Robert Jason Cutler grew up in Great Neck, New York on Long Island. He loved sports and journalism. He started his own underground magazine, and he also loved theater.

在哈佛，他学习戏剧理论，有一个重要的教训一直伴随着他。我记不清有多少次老师对我说：你把人们聚集在剧院里，请他们来与你共度三小时生命。你最好有话要说，而且最好清楚地知道要说什么。大学毕业后，卡特勒参与了一些重要戏剧制作，包括斯蒂芬·桑德海姆的音乐剧《走进森林》，担任剧作家兼导演詹姆斯·拉派的助理。

At Harvard, he studied dramatic theory, and one important lesson stayed with him. I can't remember the number of times a teacher said to me something like, you're gathering people in a theater. You've asked them to come and spend three hours of their lives with you. You better have something to say, and you better damn well know what it is. After college, Cutler got work on some major theatrical productions, including the Stephen Sondheim musical Into the Woods, assisting the playwright and director James Lapine.

卡特勒还执导了乔纳森·拉森第一部音乐剧《超级比亚》的工作坊演出，这比拉森创作《吉屋出租》早了好几年。尽管我是个戏剧爱好者，非常投入戏剧事业并取得了一些真正成功直到近三十岁，但我心里一直觉得最终会拍纪录片，会与人谈论这件事。这很奇怪，这不是一条常规道路。请谈谈近半个世纪纪录片的发展历程，包括你的导师和偶像，以及纪录片整体的演变？

Cutler also directed a workshop of Jonathan Larson's first musical, Superbia, years before Larson wrote Rent. Even though I was a theater kid who was very committed to my career in the theater and pursued it, you know, with some real success into my late twenties, I always had in the back of my mind that I would end up making documentaries, and I would speak to people about it. And it was such an odd thing. It's not a well worn path. Talk me through the recent half century life cycle of documentary film, including your mentors and heroes, and this evolution of documentary generally?

美国纪录片运动的精髓，在六十年代初由D·A·彭尼贝克、里基·利科克、艾伦·戴维·梅塞尔斯、罗伯特·德鲁等人发扬光大，其核心在于技术进步使你能肩扛摄像机，实现同步录音，记录人们的生活。这是巨大的突破，让人们能制作非凡的电影，如关于政治的《危机》和《初选》讲述肯尼迪等人竞选的故事，关于鲍勃·迪伦的《别回头》和滚石乐队的《给我庇护》，不久后还有芭芭拉·科佩尔的《美国哈兰县》，这部电影首次观看时对我个人产生了巨大影响。所有这些电影有很多共同点，但最大的一点是制作人坚信这种艺术形式与剧本电影同样可行，在电影界拥有同等地位。纪录片不再仅仅是教育工具。它们完全是电影，完全是叙事性的，完全以角色驱动，正如我喜欢说的：就像真正的电影一样。

The essence of the American documentary movement, which comes of age in the early nineteen sixties in the hands of people like DA Pennebaker and Ricky Leecock and Alan David Maisels and Robert Drew and others is that the technology has advanced to the point where you can carry a camera on your shoulder, have sync sound, and film people through their lives. This is an enormous breakthrough, and it allows people to make what are extraordinary films, films about politics such as crisis and primary, which tell stories of the Kennedys and others who were running for office, films like Don't Look Back about Bob Dylan and Gimme Shelter about the Rolling Stones, Soon thereafter, films like Harlan County USA by Barbara Koppel, which is a film that had an enormous personal impact on me when I first saw it. All of these films, they have many things in common, but the biggest one is that they are made by people who have a conviction that this art form is as viable as scripted filmmaking and that it has a place in cinema the same way that scripted filmmaking does. Documentaries are no longer just about education. They are fully cinema, fully narrative, fully character driven, and as I like to say, just like a real film.

这个想法是，如果加里·格兰特和罗伯特·雷德福能成为电影明星，为什么哈伦县的煤矿工人就不能成为电影明星呢？为什么米克·贾格尔就不能成为电影明星呢？他们是对的。你是什么时候开始相信这个论点的？我甚至在不知不觉中就成为了这个论点的信徒。

The idea was if Cary Grant and Robert Redford could be movie stars, why too couldn't the coal miners from Harlan County be movie stars? Why couldn't Mick Jagger be a movie star? And they were right. At what point did you become a believer in that thesis? I became a believer in that thesis without even knowing that I was being a believer.

我是在青少年时期和大学时代看到这些电影时成为信徒的，尤其是17岁那年，在一个雨夜通过电视机观看PBS播出的《美国哈伦县》，那情景我至今记忆犹新，仿佛就在昨天。我不仅被叙事和电影制作深深吸引，更被银幕外导演芭芭拉·科普尔的声音所震撼——她置身于 essentially 战区的中心，当地矿工与矿业公司雇用的威胁要杀害他们的暴徒之间的冲突中。而她就在这一切的正中央。正是这部电影让我认定：这就是我想做的事。1992年，卡特勒萌生了一个纪录片创意，打算跟踪记录当年的总统竞选，包括那位年轻的阿肯色州州长比尔·克林顿的崛起。

I became a believer when I saw these films as a teenager and as a college student, most of all as a 17 year old seeing Harlan County, USA, by the way, on a TV set, a PBS screening on a rainy evening that I can remember as if it were yesterday, and being so mesmerized not only by narrative and the filmmaking, but by the voice of the director off screen, Barbara Koppel, in the middle of what was essentially a war zone. These battles between the local coal miners and the thugs who worked for the mining company who were threatening to kill them. And there she was in the middle of all of it. This was the film that made me think this is what I want to do. In 1992, Cutler had an idea for a documentary that would track that year's presidential campaign, including the rise of the young Arkansas governor, Bill Clinton.

当我开始参与《战争室》时，职业纪录片制片人屈指可数。其中两位是夫妻搭档D·A·彭尼贝克和克里斯·赫吉杜斯。他们喜欢卡特勒的想法，并接手了这个项目担任导演。

When I started with The War Room, you could count the number of career documentary filmmakers on two hands. Two of those filmmakers were the husband and wife team of D. A. Pennebaker and Chris Hejides. They liked Cutler's idea, and they took on the project as directors.

只有克林顿竞选团队给予了他们访问权限，因此影片聚焦于竞选首席策略师詹姆斯·卡维尔和通讯主任乔治·斯蒂芬诺普洛斯。即使在今天，《战争室》中仍有许多令人难忘的时刻。这就是‘问题是经济，笨蛋’的起源。我最喜欢的场景之一，是当他们的候选人看似即将获胜时，卡维尔向满屋的竞选工作人员发表的一场情绪激昂的演讲。

Only the Clinton campaign gave them access, so the film focused on James Carville, the campaign's lead strategist, and George Stephanopoulos, its communications director. Even today, there are many memorable moments in the war room. This is the origin of it's the economy, stupid. One of my favorite moments is an emotional speech given by Carville to a room full of campaign workers when it's looking like their candidate will win.

除了一个人的爱之外，有一条简单的信条。一个人能给出的最神圣的东西就是他们的劳动。劳动是你所拥有的非常宝贵的东西。你工作越努力，你就越幸运。我直到33岁才第一次去华盛顿、纽约。

There's a simple doctrine outside of a a person's love. The most sacred thing that they can give is their labor. Labor is a very precious thing that you have. The harder you work, the luckier you are. I was 33 years old before I ever went to Washington, New York.

我42岁才赢得我的第一次竞选，我为你们所有人感到高兴。你们参与了我生命中一些特别的时刻，我永远不会忘记所做的工作。谢谢你们。

I was 42 before I won my first campaign, and I'm happy for all of y'all. You've been part part of something special in my life, and I'll never forget the job done. Thank you.

《战争室》于1993年首映，以纪录片的标准来看，它取得了巨大的成功，票房收入近一百万美元。那时，大多数人观看新电影仍然是在影院。最大的租赁公司是百视达。几年后，Netflix作为竞争对手出现。作为《战争室》的制片人，我曾在电影节上遇到过Netflix的负责人泰德·萨兰多斯，那时Netflix还是一家寄送DVD的红信封公司。

The War Room premiered in 1993, and by documentary standards, it was a huge hit, grossing nearly a million dollars. Back then, most people who saw new movies still watched them in theaters. The biggest rental company was Blockbuster. A few years later, Netflix would emerge as a competitor. As the producer of The War Room, I would run into Ted Sarandos at film festivals, the head of Netflix, when Netflix was a red envelope company that was sending out DVDs.

而每次我见到他，他都会告诉我，《作战室》是他寄出的最受欢迎的电影之一。他的会员们热爱纪录片，《作战室》是他们最喜欢的影片之一。所以当Netflix开始制作《纸牌屋》这样的原创节目时，我明显感觉到纪录片很快也会跟上，你猜怎么着？它们果然很快跟上了，现在我们有了证据。他们拥有数据。

And every time I'd see him, he would tell me that The War Room was one of the most popular films that he was sending out. His membership loved documentaries, and the War Room was one of their favorite films. So when Netflix started to do original programming with House of Cards, it was obvious to me that the documentaries were going to soon follow, and what do you know? They soon followed, and now we have evidence. They have the data.

他们知道有多少人观看这些影片。他们知道谁在观看。他们不喜欢分享数据，但他们确实拥有这些数据。他们不愿意与公众分享，但会与我们中的一些人分享，而且数字表现很好。

They know how many people watch them. They know who watches them. They don't like to share the data, but they have it. They don't like to share it with the public. They share with some of us, and the numbers are good.

关于这一点，让我问你这个问题。你刚才告诉我泰德·萨兰多斯和《作战室》在Netflix早期订阅者中非常受欢迎，这让我想到——但如果我错了请纠正我——是不是在过去几十年里，一直潜藏着或被忽视的是一个庞大的纪录片观众群体，但整个系统，包括电影制作系统、好莱坞、影院系统等等，对纪录片的关注不如对标准虚构电影那么多？你认为情况是这样吗，即存在一种无人知晓的潜在需求，这就是为什么我们现在看到如此多需求的原因，仅仅是因为有一种分发技术能够满足这种需求？其实，每个有艺术影院的小镇都在放映纪录片。十月公司（新线的一部分）、米拉麦克斯（后来成为韦恩斯坦公司）以及其他公司都在发行纪录片。

On that point, let me ask you this. The story you just told me about Ted Sarandos and The War Room being so popular among the early subscribers of Netflix would suggest to me, but please tell me if I'm wrong, that lying out there sort of dormant or underserved this whole time, the last several decades, was a large audience for documentary films, but that the system, the filmmaking system, Hollywood, and the theater system and so on, didn't pay as much attention to documentaries as to the standard fiction films. Do you think that was the case, that there was dormant demand out there that nobody ever knew, and that's why we're seeing so much demand now is simply there is a distribution technology that allows that demand to be satisfying? Well, every town with an arthouse was showing documentaries. October, part of New Line, and Miramax, which became the Weinstein Company, and others were distributing documentaries.

《作战室》在艺术影院连续上映了数月之久。结果乔治·斯蒂芬诺普洛斯成了日场偶像，但艺术影院的观众比多厅影院的观众要少，过去如此，将来也永远如此。现在，艺术影院通过流媒体服务来到了你身边。所以，如果你是一个热爱纪录片的人，这些人现在有丰富的影片菜单可供选择。我曾听你形容自己是一名拍摄纪录片的话剧导演。

The War Room ran for months and months in the arthouses. George Stephanopoulos was a matinee idol as a result, but the arthouse audience is smaller than the multiplex audience, and it always was and it always will be. Now the arthouse comes to you through the streaming services. So if you are someone who loves a documentary, those people now have a healthy menu of films to see. I've seen you describe yourself as a theater director who makes documentary films.

我的意思是，我现在越来越清楚地意识到，这在技术上和字面上都是真实的。但这意味着什么？你认为它是如何体现的？我的意思是，这是我训练的基础。在结构上，我也像亚里士多德教导的那样思考叙事。

I mean, it's now coming clear to me that that is technically and literally true. But what does that mean? How does it manifest itself, do you think? I mean, this is the foundation of my training. Structurally, I think of narrative as Aristotle taught me too.

我希望观众在剧院里度过一段欢乐的时光。我希望他们笑、哭、跺脚。我既从电影角度思考，也从角色、障碍、克服障碍以及我们在克服障碍时学到的东西的角度思考。当你制作电影时，你寻找的东西之一就是内在的结构。没有什么比选举日更好的了。

I want the audience to have a rollicking good time at the theater. I want them to laugh and cry and stomp their feet. I'm thinking cinematically as well, but I'm also thinking in terms of character and obstacle and overcoming obstacle and the things we learn when we overcome obstacle. One of the things you look for when you're making a film is an inherent structure. There's nothing better than election day.

没有什么比毕业更好的了。如果你在制作一部关于比莉·艾利什的电影，没有什么比格莱美奖更好的了。但我们当时并不知道她会赢得那晚的那么多格莱美奖，她抱回了一大堆。这是2020年格莱美奖，艾利什赢得了年度专辑、年度唱片、年度歌曲、最佳流行演唱专辑和最佳新人奖。她当时18岁。

There's nothing better than graduation. And if you're making a film about Billie Eilish, there's nothing better than the Grammys. But we didn't know that she was gonna win however many Grammy Awards she won that night, and they were an armful. This was the twenty twenty Grammy Awards when Eilish won album of the year, record of the year, song of the year, best pop vocal album, and best new artist. She was 18 years old.

卡特勒曾与艾利什及其家人、她的哥哥菲尼亚斯（也是她的合作者和制作人）以及他们的父母玛吉和帕特里克（他们在家教育孩子们）共同生活。我在拍摄这部电影时，可能对纪录片制作有些失去热情，有点失去了火花，而这部电影极大地重新点燃了那份热情。你是怎么认识艾利什一家的？我是被邀请去和他们见面的。

Cutler had been embedded with Eilish and her family, her older brother, Phineas, who's also her collaborator and producer, and their parents, Maggie and Patrick, who homeschooled the kids. I made this film at a time when I was probably a little out of love with documentary filmmaking. A little bit had lost the spark, and this film rekindled that spark in a huge way. How did you meet the Eilish family? I was invited to meet with them.

他们看过九月刊，我想他们也看过《作战室》。他们熟悉我的作品，我是他们会面的人之一，我们立刻就有了共鸣。那么他们也对其他人感兴趣吗？我不太清楚全部细节。

They had seen the September issue. They had seen the War Room, I think. They were familiar with my work, and I was one of the people that they met with, and we instantly connected. And So there were others they were interested in also? I don't really know the full details.

当有人邀请你去参加派对时，你不会问他们还邀请了谁，也不会问为什么。在那种情况下，我很高兴见到他们，也很高兴与他们合作，因为我很清楚，可以制作一部纯粹的真实电影，讲述他们即将到来的人生阶段的故事。我想比利当时16岁，她和菲尼亚斯正在创作《当我们都睡着了，我们去哪儿？》——他们的第一张完整专辑。

When someone invites you to a party, you don't ask them who else is invited, you don't ask them why. In that case, I was thrilled to meet them, and I was thrilled to work with them because it was very clear to me that there was a purely verite film to be made, a film that would tell the story of the coming period of their life. Billy, I think, was 16 at the time. She and Phineas were in the middle of writing When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? Their first full album.

我在主题上被吸引，也对他们的身份感到好奇。我从中看到了一部关于家庭的伟大电影，一部关于养育孩子的伟大电影，一部关于作为艺术天才（菲尼亚斯和比利都是）以及在世界特定时刻在美国成长的孩子们的伟大电影。我一下子就看到了所有这些。

I was intrigued thematically. I was intrigued in terms of who they were. I saw in this a great film about family and a great film about raising kids. I saw in it a great film about being an artistic prodigy as they both both Phineas and Billy are and being kids coming of age in America at a very particular moment in the world. I saw that all at once.

这一点我非常清楚。所以一旦我们开始拍摄，你就在做我所说的‘跟随冰球’。在韦恩·格雷茨基成功的巅峰时期，他接受采访被问及他的秘诀是什么——格雷茨基是有史以来最伟大的冰球运动员之一。格雷茨基说，嗯，很简单。

That much was very clear to me. And so once we started filming, you're doing what I call following the puck. At the height of his success, Wayne Gretzky was interviewed, and he was asked, what was his secret? Wayne Gretzky being one of the greatest hockey players to ever live. Gretzky said, well, it's quite simple.

我只是跟着冰球走。这就是我们作为真实电影制作人必须做的。我们必须跟随冰球，必须尽可能清晰地观察生活，讲述在我们面前展开的故事。不过，我一直听到的格雷茨基名言与你刚才说的有点不同。

I just follow the puck. And that's what we must do as verite filmmakers. We must follow the puck. We must try to see life as clearly as possible and tell the story that is unfolding in front of us. The Gretzky quote, as I've always heard it, is a little bit different from what you just said.

大意是：滑向冰球将要去的地方，而不是它现在所在的地方。所以当你思考比利的故事——我们称之为比利和菲尼亚斯的故事，因为他显然也非常核心——请告诉我们你开始与他们合作时对他们的了解和想法，以及你认为他们可能会走向何方。我在他们的当下看到了他们。我对此有不同的感觉，我不是在寻找你要去的地方。

It's something like, skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it is. So when you're thinking about the Billy let's call it the Billy and Phineas story because he's obviously so central to it as well, Tell us what you knew and thought about them when you started working with them and where you thought maybe they were going. I saw them in their moment. I do have a different sense of it. I'm not looking for where you're going.

我没有任何期待。我只是在提问，不是在回答什么。人们会问我，拍摄关于比莉·艾利什的电影时，你最大的惊喜是什么？我没有惊喜，因为那意味着你期待某件事，但发生了别的事情。

I'm not expecting anything. I'm asking questions. I'm not answering anything. People would say to me, what were the biggest surprises you had in making the film about Billie Eilish? And I don't have surprises because that would mean that you're expecting one thing and something else happens.

在比莉·艾利什纪录片的一个场景中，她唱片公司的一位高管询问比莉选择公开谈论毒品有害影响的事。比莉的妈妈玛吉也在场。你现在听到的第一个声音是那位唱片公司高管。

In one scene of the Billie Eilish documentary, an executive from her record label asks Billie about choosing to speak out about the harmful effects of drugs. Billy's mom, Maggie, is also there. The first voice you'll hear now is the label executive.

你们俩对于谈论自己对毒品、香烟和酒精的感受有什么看法？我唯一的想法是，就像，你说了一些话，然后可能你长大了，感觉不一样了，然后就会因此被抨击。

What do you both think about talking about your feelings about drugs and cigarettes and alcohol? My only thought is how, like, you say things and then maybe you grow up and feel differently and then get dragged for it.

但我有我的时刻，然后我吸毒了，然后人们就会说，

But I have my moment and then I do drugs and then people are like,

我是安迪·比

I'm And bee

然后玛吉说话了。

then Maggie speaks up.

难道你真的不让她做现在真实的自己，以防她长大后吸毒吗？不。不。

Are you actually not gonna let her be authentic to who she is now in case she grows up to do drugs? No. No.

我不是那个意思。

I don't mean doing any of that.

你能做这个吗，拜托？

Can you do this, please?

别对切尔西大喊大叫。

Stop yelling at Chelsea.

我没有大喊大叫。我只是觉得那是自找麻烦。不过她说得对，她有道理。也许不要长大后那样做。

I'm not yelling. I just think that's borrowing trouble. Well, she's right, though. She has a point. Well, maybe don't grow up to do that.

什么？你现在就必须计划好，每个做你这行的人都必须那样长大，你必须计划好，这样以后你做的时候就不会招致憎恨，因为你年轻时说过你不会那样。为什么你父母总陪着你？你有一大群人在努力帮你避免像以前和你处境相同的人那样毁掉自己的生活。所以我们真的要因为害怕她以后会那样做就不发布东西吗？

What? Do you have to plan right now that you're every every person who does what you do has to grow up and that way, and you have to plan it so that you don't get hate later when you do it because when you were younger you said you wouldn't. Why are your parents with you all the time? You've got a whole army of people trying to help you not decide to destroy your life like people in your shoes have done before. So are we gonna literally not release something for fear that later she will do that?

当你如此深入地参与一个家庭，或者任何场景时，你有多担心自己的存在会影响事件？我并不太担心会影响事件，主要是因为我不把自己看作摄像机。我认为自己是个人，我不认为我在那里是作为一个摄制组或墙上的苍蝇。对我们工作的一个巨大误解是认为我们是墙上的苍蝇。你见过我。

When you're that intimately involved in a family, in this case, or a scenario of any sort, how concerned are you that your presence is influencing events? I'm not concerned that it's influencing events in large part because I don't think of myself as a camera. I think of myself as a person, and I don't think of myself being there as a film crew or as a fly on the wall. One of the great misperceptions of what we do is that we're flies on the wall. You've met me.

我六英尺一英寸高。我不是苍蝇。我有红头发和胡子。我带了一个拿麦克风的男人和一个拿摄像机的女人。我们是人。

I'm six foot one. I'm no fly. I've got red hair and a beard. I come with a guy with a microphone and a woman with a camera. We're people.

我们是一屋子的人，处于一种动态关系中。我们之间存在着一种关系。就像所有良好的关系一样，如果存在信任，这段关系就会蓬勃发展。如果我们觉得环境对我们产生了负面影响，我们就会离开。我总是说，在他们要求我们停止拍摄前十五分钟，我们就主动停止拍摄。

We're people in a room, and we're in a dynamic. We're in a relationship. And like all good relationships, the relationship thrives if there's trust. If we feel like we're impacting the environment, we get out of there. I'm always saying, let's stop shooting fifteen minutes before they ask us to stop shooting.

跟我聊聊剪辑吧。我想知道谁负责什么，你的团队有多大。我也在想肖恩·贝克——电影《佛罗里达乐园》的导演——获得奥斯卡奖时说的话。他赢得了最佳导演、最佳剪辑还有其他一些奖。还有最佳影片。

Talk to me about editing. I wanna know who does what and how big your team is. I'm also thinking about what Sean Baker, the director of Enora, said when he won the Oscars. He won for direction and editing and something else. And producing.

对，还有最佳影片和最佳原创剧本。总之，他在领取剪辑奖的获奖感言中说，如果你看了原始素材，是我在剪辑中拯救了这部电影。相信我。那个导演应该再也找不到工作了，这当然很搞笑，因为他自己就是那个导演。

Right. Best picture and best screenplay too. Anyway, in his acceptance speech for the editing award, he said, if you saw the footage, I saved this film in the edit. Trust me. That director should never work again, which was funny, of course, because he was also the director.

那么在你的情况下，是怎么运作的？你拥有什么样的团队，每个人做什么？嗯，我有一个非常小的团队，就这部电影而言，它包括两名剪辑师。格雷格·芬顿，一位我从1999年起就合作的剪辑师，他剪辑过我做的很多项目；还有林赛·尤特斯，一位才华横溢的剪辑师，我以前从未与她合作过。他们是我的剪辑团队，而乔纳森·鲁安，他既是制片人也是研究员，担任了这个项目的后期制作故事制片人。我们四个人就是这个团队。

So in your case, how does it work? What kind of team do you have, and what does everybody do? Well, I have a very small team, and it includes two editors in the case of this film. Greg Fenton, an editor who I had worked with since 1999 and who had edited many projects that I had done, and Lindsay Utes, a brilliant editor who I had never worked with before. They were my editing team, and Jonathan Ruane, who's a producer and a researcher, was a post production story producer for the project, and the four of us were the team.

然后你从最开始着手。你知道的？你有成百上千小时的素材。你首先要识别出你拥有的所有东西，然后是你认为需要查看的一切，我们花了一个月的时间，每天都在看那些我们认为的黄金场景。然后我们开了几天会，讨论了一下，增加了一些场景，也删除了一些。

And you're starting at the beginning. You know? You have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours of footage. You're identifying first everything that you have and then everything you think you need to look at, and we spent a month every day just looking at what we considered to be the golden scenes. And then we met for several days, and then we talked about it and added some scenes and removed others.

然后剪辑师又工作了几个月，他们剪出了一个二十七小时的版本。哇。然后我们看了这二十七小时。这个过程有任何乐趣吗？因为这听起来...当然。

And then the editors worked for another couple of months, and then they had a twenty seven hour cut. Wow. And we watched the twenty seven hours. Is this part of the process enjoyable at all? Because it sounds Of course.

当然。这棒极了。如果这都不觉得享受，也许该考虑换个行当了，我会这么说。但对我们来说，是的，这很享受，而且很有启发性。当然也有走神的时候，但那也同样具有启发性。

Of course. It's fantastic. If it's not enjoyable, maybe consider a different line of work, I would say. But for us, yes, it's enjoyable, and it's illuminating. And sure there are moments where your mind wanders, but that's illuminating too.

对吧？然后有些时刻你会全神贯注、心跳加速，这很能说明问题。我们发现了故事，发现了角色，发现了旅程，也发现了电影想要的时长。你知道，这是一部两小时二十分钟带中场休息的电影。比利看完后说，她没想到有人能像她看待自己那样看待她。

Right? And then there are moments where you're riveted and your heart is pounding, and that's illuminating. We discovered story, and we discovered character, and we discovered journey, and we discovered how long the film wanted to be. You know, it's a two hour and twenty minute film with an intermission. And when Billy saw it, she said that she didn't think it was possible for anybody to see her the way she saw herself.

这是一部让我无比自豪的电影。广告之后，我们将从一位即将成为流行歌星的青少年，讲到一位即将被捕的超级巨星。

It's a film I'm incredibly proud of. Coming up after the break, from a teenager who's about to be a pop star to a superstar who's about to get busted.

有罪。有罪。所有这些指控都成立。

Guilty. Guilty. Guilty on all these counts of whatever.

那是玛莎·斯图尔特。我是斯蒂芬·杜布纳，这里是《魔鬼经济学》电台。我们马上回来。多亏了Netflix、Amazon Prime和Apple TV+等流媒体服务，纪录片不再局限于RJ·卡特勒过去常去的艺术影院。让我给你读一段《纽约杂志》最近文章的内容。

That's Martha Stewart. I'm Stephen Dubner, and this is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back. Thanks to streaming services like Netflix and Amazon Prime and Apple TV plus, documentary films are no longer confined to the arthouse theaters where RJ Cutler used to see them. Let me read you something from a recent piece in New York Magazine.

2018年至2021年间，流媒体服务对纪录片的需求翻了一倍多，曾经希望票房勉强赚取几百万美元的电影，现在以1000万、1500万或2000万美元的价格卖给流媒体平台。卡特勒刚入行时，决定以拍摄纪录片为生就像立下贫穷或许还有默默无闻的誓言，但今天情况不同了。以卡特勒2024年关于玛莎·斯图尔特的电影为例，我听说有三千到四千万人观看了那部电影。斯图尔特被称为原始影响者。

Between 2018 and 2021, demand for documentaries on streaming services more than doubled, and films that once had hoped to eke out a couple million bucks at the box office were now selling to streamers for 10 or 15 or $20,000,000. When Cutler was coming up, deciding to make documentaries for a living was like taking a vow of poverty and probably obscurity too, but that is not the case today. Consider Cutler's 2024 film about Martha Stewart. I'm told between thirty and forty million people saw that movie. Stewart has been called the original influencer.

她也是美国历史上第一位白手起家的女性亿万富翁。卡特勒的电影追溯了她从新泽西的童年，到早期作为模特和股票经纪人的几次成功，再到创建她的生活方式帝国，随后因内幕交易相关重罪指控被定罪，入狱五个月，品牌严重受损。但她自此一直在努力重塑自我。卡特勒的电影记录了那次 comeback，在某种程度上也是其中的一部分。我问卡特勒这个项目是如何成型的。

She was also the first self made female billionaire in American history. Cutler's film tracks her life from her childhood in New Jersey to a couple of early successes as a model and a stockbroker to the creation of her lifestyle empire, and then a conviction on felony charges related to insider trading that sent her to prison for five months and bruised her brand badly. But she has been rehabilitating herself ever since. Cutler's film is a chronicle of that comeback and, to some degree, a part of it. I asked Cutler how this project happened.

那部电影的起因是，我和我妻子简去长岛的蒙托克。我们都来自长岛，每年都喜欢回长岛待几周。我们带着孩子，和我们的朋友阿丽娜一起吃晚饭。那天下午，阿丽娜打电话说，你们介意吗？玛莎·斯图尔特想和我们共进晚餐。

That film came about because my wife, Jane, and I, we go to Montauk, Long Island. We're both from Long Island, and we love to go back to Long Island a couple of weeks every year. We bring our kids, and we were having dinner with our friend, Alina. And that afternoon, Alina called and said, would you mind? Martha Stewart would like to join us at dinner.

我们俩都说，这听起来太棒了。我们和玛莎·斯图尔特一起吃晚饭吧。等一下。等一下。这难道没让你对你准备的食物和房子的样子有点紧张吗？

And we both said, that sounds terrific. Let's have dinner with Martha Stewart. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did that not make you a little bit nervous about what you were serving and maybe how the house looked?

我对自己的厨艺很有信心，但我们是出去吃晚饭。哦，好主意。于是我们出去吃饭，我和玛莎坐在一起。我们度过了一个多么美好的夜晚。我们聊了她的成长经历、背景和家庭，我了解到与直觉相反，她并非出身特权阶层，而是来自工人阶级家庭，是六个孩子中的一个，她自己十几岁时就不得不工作养家，因为她的父亲很难保住工作。

I'm very confident in my cooking, but we were going out to dinner. Oh, good move. And out to dinner, we went, and I sat with Martha. And what a lovely evening we had. We talked all about her upbringing and her background and her family, and I learned that counter intuitively, she was not a child of privilege, but one who came from a working class background, one of six children who herself had to go to work as a teenager to feed her family because her father had a hard time holding down a job.

我了解了她各种各样的事情，并且还强烈感觉到她有兴趣拍一部关于自己的电影。这就是她邀请自己参加晚餐的原因吗？似乎很明显这就是她邀请自己参加晚餐的原因。于是对话开始了，因为我当然被吸引了。我之前对她了解不多。

I learned all sorts of things about her, and I also got the strong sense that she was interested in having a film made about her. Is that why she invited herself to the dinner? It seemed very clear that that's why she invited herself to the dinner. And so a conversation began because I was certainly intrigued. I didn't know a lot about her going in.

当然，我知道一些基本情况，但我不是订阅她杂志的人。我不是每天都看她的节目的人，但我听说过她。然后在晚餐时，我变得非常着迷。在随后的会议和谈话中，我们决定一起拍一部电影。很多纪录片，包括传记，都用访谈镜头来充实故事。

Of course, I knew the fundamentals, but I wasn't somebody who subscribed to her magazine. I was not somebody who watched her show on a daily basis, but I was aware of her. And then at dinner, I became incredibly intrigued. And in subsequent meetings and conversations, we decided to make a film together. A lot of documentaries, including biographies, use talking heads to fill out the story.

对象的朋友和家人可能是竞争对手或批评者。你在《玛莎》中也使用了访谈镜头，但我们从未看到他们。我们只听到他们的声音。所以这是你从一开始就决定的吗？你是用胶片拍摄了他们然后只用了音频，还是你早期就决定只录制音频？

Friends and family of the subject may be a rival or critic. And you do use talking heads in Martha, but we never see them. We only hear their voices. So was that something that you did from the outset? Did you shoot them on film and then only use audio, or did you decide early on to only record audio?

我只是好奇最终影片的愿景有多少是在制作过程中形成的。是的。这是个很好的问题，因为在这个案例中，它展示了后期制作中形式与内容如何相互作用，带你到达你想要去但不知道如何到达的地方。我知道我们想在镜头前采访玛莎。她是玛莎·斯图尔特，我希望她成为她自己电影的中心。

And I'm just curious how much of the vision of the finished film was made as you were producing. Yeah. That's a great question because in this case, it shows how the form and content in postproduction can interface and get you where you're trying to go but don't know how to get to. I knew that we wanted to interview Martha on camera. She's Martha Stewart, and I wanted her to be at the center of her film.

她的故事已经被讲述过很多次了，但从未由她自己讲述。我知道我想在镜头前采访玛莎，但我总是在寻找并且对替代方案持开放态度。我不想要那些让你脱离当下的分析性访谈镜头。我希望你沉浸在当下。在这种情况下，我还是开始在镜头前采访人们，我们会把他们剪辑进去，但我就是不喜欢这样。

Her story has been told so many times before, but never by her. I knew that I wanted to interview Martha on camera, but I'm always looking and I'm always open to alternatives. I don't want analytical talking heads that pull you out of the moment. I want you to be in the moment. In this case, I nevertheless started interviewing people on camera, and we would edit them in, and I just I didn't like it.

它是否让你脱离了状态？它确实让你脱离了状态。我不明白为什么我要看着人们在他们的客厅里谈论三十年前发生的事情。我觉得这个故事需要的不是这种电影形式。有一天我们说，让我们把所有人都移出镜头，但让玛莎留在镜头前。

Did it take you out of the flow? It took you out of the flow. I didn't understand why I was looking at people in their living rooms talking about something that had happened thirty years ago. It wasn't the cinema that I felt this story needed. One day, we said, let's take everybody off camera, but keep Martha on camera.

你知道吗？就这样，玛莎成为了电影的中心。她作为一个复杂的核心角色浮现出来，这是之前未曾有过的程度。她某种程度上是个不可靠的叙述者这一事实变得更加突出——这是一种文学建构，但非常能揭示真相。

And what do you know? There it was. Martha emerged as the center of the film. Martha emerged as a complicated central character in a way that she hadn't been quite as much before. The fact that she's kind of an unreliable narrator became more of the and that's a literary construct, but a very revealing one.

人们在他们所说和未说的事情中展现自己。他们在分享的真相和分享的虚假中展现自己。所以你可以使用那些音频记录，那些与她在一起的人的声音，但有时你会用它们来质疑或扩展她所呈现的现实版本。当你把这些组合在一起时，你有多担心会冒犯她？我记得有一次你问她关于她的感受，她说，你知道，我宁愿做事。

People reveal themselves in the things they say and the things they don't say. They reveal themselves in the truths they share and in the mistruths that they share. So you could use that audio documentary, the voices of the people who were with her, but you would use them sometimes to challenge or to expand the version of reality that she's giving. As you're putting that together, how concerned are you about offending her? I remember one time you asked her about her feelings, and she says, you know, I'd rather do things.

你有没有过在关系中谈论自己感受的经历？

Have you had any relationships where you talk about your feelings?

没有。这可能就是为什么我没有很多与男性的私人关系，比如说，因为我根本不在乎。我不知道真正的原因是什么。而且我也不太感兴趣去知道，比如，哦，查尔斯，这一刻你感觉如何？实际上，我不在乎。

No. And that's probably why I haven't had very many personal relationships with men, for example, because I couldn't care less. I don't know what the real reason is. And it doesn't interest me so much to know, you know, Oh, Charles, how do you feel this second? I don't care, actually.

我确实在乎查尔斯，你在做什么？你在想什么？所以我倾向于被那些一直在做事的人吸引。我更关心我正在做的一切，我正在从事的工作，我想要从事的事情，我想要完成的目标。那才是我最擅长的。

I do care about Charles, what are you doing? What are you thinking about? So I sort of gravitate towards people who are doing things all the time. And I think more about everything that I'm doing, things that I'm working on, things that I'd like to work on, things that I'd like to accomplish. That's where I'm best.

这如此揭示她的性格，但也有点像一记耳光。就像，嘿，我们是以这种方式而不是那种方式在做这件事。我很好奇，当你剪辑这段时，你是否认为这有点像审判中略带敌意的证词？你会考虑她将如何回应它吗？

And it's so revealing about her, but it also is a little bit of a slap. Like, you know, hey. We're doing this in a certain way and not that way. I'm curious when you're editing that, do you think about that as slightly hostile testimony in a trial kind of voice? Are you thinking about how she is going to respond to it?

说实话，我只是在思考如何制作这部电影。我明白你的意思，显然我把这些片段纳入影片，是因为我希望你能理解玛莎以这种方式敞开心扉有多么困难，这关乎她的为人本质。我能成为衬托者很好，因为这能凸显她的特质，我考虑的是如何清晰呈现这一点，其他声音也是如此。我追求的是清晰度与复杂性，以及作为观众的你走向真相的旅程。我发现影片中最有力的部分之一是关于她写给当时丈夫的一系列信件。

Honestly, I'm just thinking about making the film. I hear what you're saying, and clearly, I'm including those moments in the film because I want you to understand that it's very difficult for Martha to open up in this way because it has to do with who she is as a person. It's great that I can be the foil because that illuminates who she is, and that's what I'm thinking about is clarity there and same with the other voices. I'm looking for clarity and complexity and, you know, a journey towards truth on your behalf as a viewer. I found one of the most powerful pieces of that film was around a series of letters that she had written to her then husband.

你在采访她关于这段最终破裂的婚姻。有一次，她基本上对你说，RJ，你知道，比如，我把信件给你了。

You're interviewing her about this marriage that ended up going bad. At one point, she basically says to you, RJ, you know, like, I gave you the letters.

我个人很难谈论这件事。有些人沉溺于这种自怜等等，但我不会。我交出了非常私密的信件。所以猜怎么着？

It's hard for me personally to talk about it. Some people revel in this self pity, etcetera, etcetera. I just don't. I handed over letters that were very personal. So guess what?

从信件里拿出来说吧。

Take it out of the letters.

最亲爱的安迪，我无法入睡。我无法进食。我的皮肤感到焦虑，许多曾经不存在的生活现在出现了。

Dearest Andy, I cannot sleep. I cannot eat. My skin is worried, and many lives that were not there are now there.

和我谈谈那些信件，关于遇到这样的材料是什么感觉，以及你是如何思考的。嗯，对于寻求在当下讲述真相的电影制作人来说，这是一个极好的资源。信件是一种真实电影元素，比某人描述他们记得或说过的话更好。它和一段影片一样有价值，我非常感谢她信任我们并交给我们。顺便说一下，她给我们的完整信件有一段45分钟的音频剪辑，非常引人入胜、有力且情感充沛，因为这是在离婚期间写的信，你知道，是一个心碎的女人写的。

Talk to me about those letters about what it's like to come upon material like that and how you think it through. Well, it's a great resource for a filmmaker who's looking to tell the truth in the moment. Letters are a verite element, and they're better than someone describing what they remember or what they said. It's as valuable as a piece of film, and I was incredibly grateful to her for trusting us with them. And by the way, there's a forty five minute audio edit of the full length of letters that she gave us that is riveting and powerful and very emotional because it's the letters written during a divorce, you know, and a woman whose heart is broken.

和我聊聊那部电影的完成和发布，尤其是玛莎·斯图尔特的反应。任何稍微读过媒体关于她回应报道的人，根据你之前告诉我的，我想会对现实有误解。一个出现在这样电影中的人，尤其是那些整个职业生涯都习惯于控制自己形象和叙事，并经历过一些起伏和困难时期的人，看到这部电影时会非常脆弱。我的意思是，如果我拍了一部关于你的电影并放给你看，它可能会与你为自己拍的电影不同。如果你拍了一部关于我的电影并放给我看，它也会与我为自己拍的电影不同。

Talk me through the completion and release of that film and especially Martha Stewart's reaction. Anyone who's read the media a little bit about her response will have, I think, a misperception misperception of the reality according to what you've told me earlier. A person who's in a film like this, especially somebody who's used to controlling their image and their narrative for their whole career and who's had some ups and downs and difficult times, is going to be very vulnerable seeing the film. I mean, if I made a film about you and showed it to you, it would probably differ than the film you would make about you. If you made a film about me and showed it to me, it would differ than the film I would make about me.

玛莎·斯图尔特会拍出与我不同的电影，这一点我们都不应感到惊讶。在早期，她就公开表示希望我使用不同的音乐，并且在影片接近尾声时有一个场景，她觉得没有像她希望的那样美化她。她说她当时只是跟腱受伤，这让她看起来比实际年龄更老。是的，是的。

It shouldn't surprise any of us that Martha Stewart would have made a different film than I did. In those early days, she was public about the fact that she wished I had used different music, and there was a scene towards the end of the film where she felt it didn't depict her as flatteringly as she would Right. She said she just had an Achilles injury, and it made her look older than she actually is. Yes. Yes.

更脆弱。相信我，富有同理心，如果那段她提到的镜头不是如此惊人地美丽、有力、诗意，并且没有展示她非凡的景观美化能力——这是电影中的一个核心隐喻——我们可能就不会使用它。我并不介意她的批评。这可能，你知道，暗示了一些人会想去看这部电影，看看这场喧闹是怎么回事。玛莎一直非常支持这部电影，我们经常交流。

More fragile. Believe me, empathetic, and we might not have used the footage she was referring to if it wasn't also incredibly beautiful and powerful and poetic and if it didn't show her extraordinary landscaping abilities, which was a central metaphor in the film. It's not that I minded her having the criticism. It probably, you know, suggested to some people that they would wanna see the film to see what all the hullabaloo was about. Martha continues to be incredibly supportive of the film, and we speak all the time.

玛莎告诉我的是，无论她走到哪里，都有年轻女性上前告诉她，她克服逆境的故事激励了她们，而且是她一生中多次面临的逆境。她是一位幸存者。广告之后，R. J. 卡特勒不会为谁拍电影呢？

What Martha has told me is that everywhere she goes, young women come up to her to tell her that her story of overcoming adversity has inspired them, and adversity at multiple times in her life. She is a survivor. Coming up after the break, who wouldn't R. J. Cutler make a film about?

我母亲过去常说，不要做任何你不想在《纽约时报》头版读到的事情。这里有一个类似的版本。我是史蒂芬·杜布纳。这里是《怪诞经济学》电台。我们马上回来。

My mother used to say, don't do anything you don't wanna read about on the front page of the New York Times. There's a version of that here. I'm Steven Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

纪录片制片人R·J·卡特勒的最新作品名为《为荣耀而战》。这是一部关于2024年世界大赛的三集纪录片。卡特勒和他的团队深入了洛杉矶道奇队和纽约洋基队的休息区。剧透警告：道奇队赢了。卡特勒是另一支纽约棒球队——大都会队的终身铁杆球迷。

The latest release from the documentary filmmaker RJ Cutler is called fight for glory. It's a three parter about the twenty twenty four world series. Cutler and his crew were down in the dugouts of both the Los Angeles Dodgers and the New York Yankees. Spoiler alert, the Dodgers win. Cutler is a lifelong and hardcore fan of the other New York baseball team, the Mets.

他的兄弟过去曾跟一位科恩夫人上钢琴课，而这位夫人恰好是大都会队现任老板史蒂夫·科恩的母亲。卡特勒非常希望大都会队今年能打进世界大赛，并且苹果公司会请他制作那个版本的《为荣耀而战》。为了制作纽约大都会队的电影，我愿意做任何事。棒球是一项美丽的运动，关于生活和克服逆境，它能教给我们很多。这是一项关于失败的运动。

His brother used to take piano lessons from one missus Cohen, who happens to be the mother of the Mets' current owner, Steve Cohen. Cutler is very much hoping that the Mets make it to the World Series this year and that Apple asks him to make that version of fight for glory. I will do anything to make the New York Mets film. Baseball is a beautiful game that has so much to teach us about life and about overcoming adversity. It's a game of failure.

棒球中的成功率是30%。这意味着70%的时间里，你都会像胡安·索托昨天在关键时刻那样，满垒时击出双杀打。你知道，R·J，当你把棒球描述为克服逆境的练习时，我想到你制作的每一部电影，其核心都是你所追随的人物在克服逆境。不是吗？这就是生活。

A success rate in baseball is 30%. That means 70% of the time, you're Juan So to grounding into a double play with the bases loaded like he did yesterday at a critical moment. You know, RJ, when you describe baseball as an exercise in overcoming adversity, it strikes me that every film you've ever made has had overcoming adversity at the core of the people you're following. No? This is life.

你知道吗？这就是生活。这确实是我被吸引去拍摄某些题材的原因，每个人都有他们必须克服的逆境，而这正是定义我们是谁的方式。我们可能会认为你是名人身边的人，对吧？

You know? This is life. It's certainly something that attracts me to the subjects I've made films about, and everybody has adversity that they've had to overcome, and it's the way who we are is defined. We might think of you as celebrity adjacent. Right?

你并不完全是名人。你很有名，但你花了很多时间与真正出名的人在一起。所以我想知道你是否能谈谈名声及其代价，尤其是代价。我想很多人认为出名大多很棒，因为它还伴随着财富和权力。我会说财富和权力其实是分开的。

You're not a celebrity, quite. You're well known, but you've spent a lot of time with people who are really famous. So I wonder if you could just talk for a moment about fame and the costs, especially. I think a lot of people think that being famous is mostly wonderful because it also comes with wealth and power. I would argue wealth and power are kind of separate.

如果你能拥有这些而不出名，可能会更好。我想知道，通过与许多名人亲密相处，你看到了关于名声本身什么，这些人必须处理名声的利弊。嗯，我想我会这样回答：我试图让我的孩子们明白，名声并不像看起来那样，而且据我所见，它无疑是一把双刃剑。这是一种崇拜名声的文化。有时我不太确定我理解这是为什么。

If you could have those without the fame, it might be better. I wonder what you can tell us that you've seen about fame per se having spent time with a number of people in a very intimate way, people who are famous and who have to deal with the upsides and downsides. Well, I guess I will answer that by saying that I try to impress upon my kids that fame isn't what it looks like, and that from what I've seen, it's certainly a double edged sword. It's a culture that worships fame. Sometimes I'm not quite sure I understand why.

我被问到关于名声的话题，我理解它已经成为我一些电影的主题，但我并不真的认为这是我被吸引去拍摄那些名人的原因。我认为吸引我的是他们的伟大，而不是他们的名声。我的意思是，你指出的关于伟大的这一点，大多数人出名是因为他们很伟大。问题是，让他们在其领域伟大的东西与出名能力无关。事实上，即使是一些旨在公开表演的表演者，如果他们碰巧出名了，他们似乎真的不知所措，然后他们必须应对这一点。

I get asked about, you know, fame as a subject, and I understand that it has become a subject of some of the films that I've done, but I don't really see that as what has attracted me to the famous people I've made movies about. I see their greatness as the thing that attracts me more than their fame. I mean, what you're pointing out about greatness, most people get famous because they're great. The problem is the thing that made them great at the thing they do has nothing to do with the, ability to be famous. And indeed, even among some performers who set out to perform in public, they seem really overwhelmed if they happen to become famous, and then they have to deal with that.

这似乎像是一种状况，也许是伟大的副作用。如果你在《人物》杂志出现之前就在场，就像我一样，你已经看到了文化的变化。记得《人物》还只是《时代》杂志的一个专栏，然后它变成了自己的杂志，我们曾经——你已经看到了文化的变化，当然，互联网也改变了它。我记得在我二十岁出头时遇到一个名人，心想，哦，她因出名而出名。现在这就是文化。

It just seems like it's a condition, a side effect of greatness maybe as much as anything. If you were around before People magazine, which I was, you've seen the culture change. Remember when People was just a column in Time magazine, and then it became its own magazine, and we used to you've seen the culture change, and, of course, the Internet changes it. I remember meeting a famous person in my early twenties and thinking, oh, she's famous for being famous. Now that's the culture.

文化就是人们因出名而出名。我们必须充分理解真正的价值是什么。让我问你这个问题。我可以去Netflix看你的关于玛莎·斯图尔特的纪录片，我欣赏它是一部真正的纪录片作品以及它所包含的一切。我相信它是非虚构的。

The culture is people who are famous for being famous. We have to understand fully what the real value is. Let me ask you this. I can go to Netflix and watch your documentary about Martha Stewart, and I appreciate that it's a real piece of documentary work and all the things that that entails. I believe it to be nonfiction.

我不认为有人在编造东西。我不认为有人遗漏了任何实质性的内容，等等。所以对我来说，它不是新闻，但至少是新闻的表亲。但我也可以观看Netflix或亚马逊或其他地方的许多其他关于知名人士的纪录片，它们的感觉和外观看起来与，比如说，玛莎·斯图尔特的纪录片非常相似，但我知道它们是在非常不同水平和类型的合作下制作的。它们本质上是委托肖像。

I don't think anybody's making up stuff. I don't think anybody's leaving anything substantial out, etcetera. So to me, it's not journalism, but it's a cousin, at least, of journalism. But then I can also watch a lot of other docs on Netflix or Amazon or elsewhere about well known people that are made to feel and look pretty similar to, let's say, a Martha Stewart documentary, but I know are made with a very different level and type of cooperation. They're essentially commissioned portraits.

而我，无论是作为记者还是观众，对此并不感到特别兴奋，我很想听听你对此话题的看法。我认为观众必须清楚了解他们观看的电影是谁制作的，这一点至关重要。我大力支持媒体素养教育，认为人们应该对自己观看的内容及其来源有清晰的认识。如果你在看一家新闻机构的报道，你应该知道它与其他新闻机构的区别。

And I, as both journalists and as a consumer, I'm not super thrilled about that, and I'm curious to know your take on this topic. I think that it is absolutely critical that, you know, viewers have a sense of who's making the films that they're looking at. I'm a big proponent of media literacy. I think you should have a strong sense of what you're looking at and who the sources are. I think if you're watching one news service, you should know the difference between it and another news service.

我认为如果你在网上阅读一条推文，你应该知道它的来源。如果你在看一部纪录片，你也应该知道它的来源。我只能就我自己的作品和我们追求真相的严谨态度发言，但我们是电影制作人，是艺术家。我们关注的是生活中更具诗意的奥秘和复杂性，而不是新闻事实本身。

I think if you're reading a tweet online, you should know the source of that. And I think that if you're looking at a documentary, you should know the source of that. And I can only speak to my own work and the rigor with which we pursue truth, but we're filmmakers. We're artists. We're looking at the more poetic mysteries of life and its complexities rather than the journalistic facts of the matter.

尽管我们和记者一样对真相负有责任，但我们的工作方式截然不同。我假设没有金钱交易。玛莎·斯图尔特没有委托你为她制作电影，对吧？哦，没有。

As much as we are equally obliged to the truth as journalists, what we do is very different. I assume no money changed hands. Martha Stewart does not commission you to make a film about her. Correct? Oh, no.

当然没有。你会接受委托吗？如果比尔·盖茨或其他人来找你说，RJ，我觉得你的电影很棒。我想让你为我制作一部诚实的电影，但我要你为我拍一部电影，这是500万，或者2000万美元的制作费。你会怎么做？

Of course not. Would you ever accept a commission? If Bill Gates or someone comes and says, RJ, I think your films are great. I want you to make an honest film about me, but I want you to make a film about me, and here's 5,000,000, $20,000,000 to make it. What do you do?

嗯，这是两个不同的数字。所以2000万可以，500万不行。这么说吧，我会找一些人商量，确保我做出正确的决定。我很幸运，我的合作伙伴能给我明智的建议。我以为你会说你很幸运，能够不受约束地制作自己想做的作品并获得报酬。

Well, those are two different numbers. So that means 20 yes, 5 no. Let's just say I call some people to talk it through, and they make sure I make the right decision. I'm very blessed in that I have wise counsel from my partners. I thought you were gonna say you're blessed in that you've been able to make the work that you want to make without strings and get paid for it.

那也是事实？是的，所有这些都是事实。这个答案甚至更好。访问权和审批权之间的区别或界限在哪里？

That's also true? Yes. All of that is true. That's an even better answer. What's the difference between or where is the line between access and approval?

访问权与审批权之间的界限是我尽可能早在过程中与每个人进行的对话，那就是最终剪辑权。我在第一个晚上就和玛莎进行了那次对话，她接受了，就像比莉·艾利什接受了，她的父母接受了，安娜·温图尔接受了，以及我从开始合作以来每个人都接受的方式。为不了解的人解释一下最终剪辑权。如果导演拥有最终剪辑权，导演就在做所有决定。但这并不意味着我不尊重故事属于拍摄对象这一事实。

The line between access and approval is a conversation that I try to have with everyone as early in the process as possible, and that is the line of final cut. I had that conversation with Martha that very first evening, and she embraced it the way that Billie Eilish embraced it, and her parents embraced it, way that Anna Wintour embraced it, the way that everybody who I've worked with since the beginning has embraced it. Define final cut for those who don't know. If the director has final cut, the director is making all the decisions. That doesn't mean that I don't respect the fact that the story belongs to the subject.

这并不意味着我不会提前分享影片并听取他们的反馈，但最终决定权在我。告诉我一个你曾被提供但拒绝的项目。哦，天哪。我不知道。比如，假设在2023年11月，哈马斯来找你说，RJ，我们认为我们在这里被误解了。

It doesn't mean that I don't share the film beforehand and hear their feedback, but final decisions are mine. Tell me about a project that you've been offered and rejected. Oh, goodness. I don't know. What if, for instance, in November 2023, Hamas came to you and said, you know, RJ, we think we're being misportrayed here.

不。不。不。不。不。

No. No. No. No. No.

不。但我们会提供完整的嵌入，让你接触一切。我的意思是，这取决于具体情况。那听起来不像任何爱我的人会建议我去的地方。我母亲过去常说，愿她安息。

No. But we'll offer you a full embedding, full access to everything. I mean, it depends on the circumstances. That doesn't sound like anywhere you should anybody who loves me would advise me to go. My mother used to say bless her memory.

我母亲过去常说，不要做任何你不想在《纽约时报》头版读到的事情。但是，听着，我拍了一部关于迪克·切尼的电影，叫做《迪克·切尼的世界》。他是一个我在政治上完全没有共同点的人，但我对他很着迷。

My mother used to say, don't do anything you don't wanna read about on the front page of the New York Times. But but, you know, listen. I made a movie about Dick Cheney. It's called the world according to Dick Cheney. He is somebody with whom I have absolutely no political common ground, but I was fascinated by him.

他可能是美国历史上最有权势和影响力的非总统政治人物，他同意让我制作这部电影。并坐下来与你进行了深度访谈。是的，五天的长时间采访，我真的很高兴我这么做了。所以我不是说我总是需要同意主题，但你知道，我们会涉及各种复杂性，我不会为任何人制作宣传片。

Here's perhaps the single most powerful and impactful nonpresidential political figure in American history, and he agreed to let me make a film. And sat for a deep interview with you. Yes. Five days of long interviews, and I'm really glad that I did. So I'm not saying I always would need to agree with the subject, but, you know, there's we get into all sorts of complexities, and I'm not going to make a propaganda film about anybody.

告诉我，切尼的电影如何改变了你，或者你对自己学到了什么？不是关于他，而是，我认为我们所有写作或制作东西的人之所以这么做，是因为将自己置身于与你不同的人周围，置身于与你不同的情境中，这会改变你，这很刺激。那么对你来说，那次经历发生了什么？当然，与他交谈那五天，每天八小时，需要一种智力上的严谨和非常令人满意的参与度。我的意思是，迪克·切尼是一个非凡的人物，对我来说非常有趣的是他如何随着时间的推移而改变。

Tell me, with the Cheney film, how did it change you, or what did you learn about yourself? Not about him, but, you know, I think the reason all of us who write or make stuff do it is because it's thrilling to put yourself around people that are unlike you, to put yourself in situations that are unlike yours because it changes you. So what happened in that case for you? Certainly, talking with him for those five days, eight hours a day, required an intellectual rigor and a level of engagement that was very satisfying. I mean, Dick Cheney is a remarkable figure, and what was very interesting to me was how he had changed over time.

他是美国历史上最年轻的总统办公厅主任，作为杰拉尔德·福特的办公厅主任，他成年生活开始时是个酒鬼，不断辍学，直到控制住酗酒问题后才有了光明的前途，然后专注于他的教育以及在华盛顿的职业生涯。听起来你学到的是你年轻时本可以多喝点酒。我学到了很多关于他的事情，但我也学到了很多关于责任与荣誉之间的冲突，这是我和他讨论并存在分歧的地方，电影也与他不同。他认为责任高于荣誉，我认为这导致他做了一些有害的事情。所以，RJ，你已经制作了许多关于政治、政治人物、选举过程的电影。

He was the youngest presidential chief of staff in American history as Gerald Ford's chief of staff, and somebody who had started his life, you know, his adult life as a drunk, forever dropping out of school and not really having a promising future until he got his alcoholism under control, and then focused on his education and then on his career in Washington. Sounds like what you're saying you learned was that you could have afforded to drink more in your youth. I learned a lot about him, and but I also learned a lot about the conflict between duty and honor, which is something that he and I spoke about and differed on, and the film differs from him on. He felt that duty outranked Onur, and I think it led him to do some damaging things. So, RJ, you've made a number of films about politics, politicians, the electoral process.

我想让你和我谈谈唐纳德·特朗普。你在电视上看到他时，你看到了什么？你认为他是如何塑造自己的形象并影响公众的？他让你想起了谁，等等？嗯，我看到一个在政治上让我想起奥利弗·诺斯的人，他是《完美候选人》的主题。

I want you to talk to me about Donald Trump. What do you see when you see him on TV? How do you think about him shaping his image and influencing the public? Who does he remind you of, etcetera? Well, I see a man who reminds me politically of Oliver North, who is the subject of A Perfect Candidate.

那部我和大卫·范·泰勒在1994年制作的关于奥利弗·诺斯参议院竞选的电影，我看到一个非常熟悉的剧本，一个诉诸不满情绪的剧本，并且触及了美国历史和身份中某种阴暗面。我看到一个媒体操纵大师。我们这些在纽约长大、是纽约人的人，知道我们整个职业生涯都见过唐纳德·特朗普。我们知道他的剧本，也知道罗伊·科恩的剧本，并且我们看到它在行动。奥利弗·诺斯没有而唐纳德·特朗普拥有的是一个极其强大的媒体机器——福克斯新闻，我认为这是一个改变游戏规则的因素，一个对其政治成功影响非常非常强大的改变游戏规则的因素。

The film that David Van Taylor and I made in 1994 about Oliver North's senate campaign, I see a playbook that's very familiar, a playbook of grievance and one that taps into a kind of dark side of American history and identity. I see a master media manipulator. Those of us who grew up in New York and are New Yorkers know we've seen Donald Trump our whole careers. We know his playbook, and we know Roy Cohn's playbook, and we see it in action. What Oliver North didn't have and Donald Trump does have is an incredibly powerful media machine in Fox News, and I see that as a difference maker, A very, very powerful difference maker in its impact on his political success.

我不认为特朗普所激起的愤怒不是真实的，但在我们当前的文化环境中，对真相的操纵变得容易得多。你有没有想过拍一部关于特朗普的电影？没有。没有。没有。

I don't think that the anger that Trump taps into is not genuine, but the manipulation of the truth becomes a lot easier in the culture that we're in right now. Have you thought about making film on Trump? No. No. No.

我的意思是，我总是会对拍摄涉及我国政府的真实环境感到好奇。说实话，我会非常好奇。但我能有最终剪辑权吗？如果答案是否定的，那就算了。我不感兴趣。

I mean, I would always be curious to film in a verite environment that involves the government of my country. Honestly, I would be very curious. But do I get final cut? If the answer is no, then no. I'm not interested.

如果你有呢？如果我被邀请去椭圆形办公室拍摄十天？是的。当然。我会感到荣幸和好奇。

What if you did? If I were invited to film for ten days in the Oval Office? Yeah. Sure. I'd be honored and curious.

所以，我们这个节目在白宫确实有很多听众。我们时不时会收到他们的消息。听起来好像如果发出邀请，你会接受，主要条件是拥有最终剪辑权。对吗？是的。

So we do have a lot of listeners to this program in the White House. We hear from them, you know, now and again. It sounds as though if an invitation were extended, you would accept chief condition being final cut. Correct? Yes.

我很感激你代表我进行这次谈判。不客气。到时候给我挂个小小的、小小的、小小的联合执行初级制片人头衔就行。没问题。告诉我你的格陵兰电影项目是什么，以及它的进展。我们才刚刚开始，非常令人兴奋。

And I'm grateful to you for negotiating this on my behalf. You're welcome. I can get one of those tiny, tiny, tiny co executive junior producer credits when it's No problem. Tell me about your Greenland film project, what it is, and the status. We're just beginning, and it's incredibly exciting.

在冷战时期的1960年代初，第二次世界大战结束后，美国在格陵兰岛建造了一座地下城市，表面上是为了监测环境问题并展示在北极地区的生存能力。丹麦政府知道我们在那里，并支持我们在那里的努力。但美国政府没有告诉丹麦政府的是，这实际上是一个针对苏联的核武器军事基地。我们在1960年代初入侵了格陵兰岛，却没有告知丹麦政府我们的存在。需要明确的是，丹麦政府是格陵兰岛的官方管理者。

In the wake of the second World War in the early nineteen sixties during the Cold War, The United States built an underground city in Greenland that was ostensibly meant to monitor environmental issues and demonstrate survivability in Arctic areas. The Danish government knew that we were there and supported our efforts to be there. What the US government didn't tell the Danish government was that it was really a military base for nuclear armaments pointed at the Soviet Union. We invaded Greenland in the early nineteen sixties, and we didn't tell the Danish government that we were there. Just to be clear, the Danish government is the official keeper of Greenland.

对吗？没错。到了1966年左右，美国政府放弃了该项目，遣散了所有人，处理了核反应堆，但留下了所有核废料，并假设它们会永远埋在冰层之下。你猜怎么着？当你埋藏秘密时，猜猜会发生什么？

Correct? That is correct. And by 1966 or so, the US government abandoned the project, sent everybody home, and got rid of the nuclear reactor, but left all the nuclear waste and just assumed that it would remain buried under the ice forever. And guess what? Guess what doesn't happen when you bury your secrets?

它们不会永远埋藏，尤其是在全球变暖和极地冰盖融化的背景下。丹麦政府是什么时候发现这一点的？他们发现美国在那里部署导弹大约是在世纪之交。所以直到世纪之交，这个基地的存在才在军方之外为人所知？作为一个核武库的基地存在，这一点几十年来都未被揭露。

They don't stay buried, and they especially don't stay buried with global warming and the polar ice cap melting. At what point did the Danish government make this discovery? They discovered that The US had put missiles there right around the turn of the century. So it wasn't until around the turn of the century that the existence of the base was even known outside of the military? The existence of the base as a nuclear arsenal, that didn't get revealed for many decades.

然后直到2017年，一位冰川学家才公布了一项研究，指出按照极地冰盖和格陵兰岛周围冰层融化的速度，这些核废料将在几十年内以危险的方式暴露出来。当你深入了解这段历史时，你会意识到美国对格陵兰岛的图谋已有数十年之久。事实上，不止几十年，而是一百五十年。这就是我们正在制作的这部电影的主题。我的意思是，显然，这与您公开表示愿意或有兴趣拍摄关于特朗普白宫的电影有所交集。

And then it wasn't until 2017 that a glaciologist revealed a study that this nuclear waste was at the rate that the polar ice cap was melting and the ice around Greenland was melting, this nuclear waste would be exposed in a dangerous way within decades. And as you get into the history of this, you realize that The United States has had designs on Greenland for decades. In fact, for more than decades, for a hundred and fifty years. And that's what this movie that we're making is about. I mean, plainly, this intersects with your, professed willingness or appetite to make a film about the Trump White House.

您对美国政府对那里地下情况的当前关注程度了解多少？换句话说，这在特朗普政府对格陵兰岛的想法中占多大比重？我们会去查明，并讲述这个故事。我钦佩您的技艺和机敏。您问过，如果突然接到一个邀请，让我在一段时间内在椭圆形办公室拍摄，我会接受这个邀请吗？

What do you know about the US government's current level of concern about the situation under the ground there? In other words, to what degree is this being factored into the Trump administration's ideas about Greenland? We're gonna find out, and we're gonna look to tell that story. I admire your craft and your craftiness. You asked if out of the blue, I was to receive a phone call inviting me to film in the Oval Office for a period of time, would I accept the invitation?

我说在任何情况下我都会接受那个邀请，因为这是真的。然后在您的采访后期，您提到了我制作关于特朗普政府电影的愿望。我想我可能用“兴趣”或类似的话修正了“愿望”。甚至是“胃口”，这是一种更强烈的欲望。我想在记录中澄清，制作关于本届政府的电影不是我当前计划或兴趣的一部分。

And I said under any circumstances, I would accept that invitation because it's true. And then later in your interview, you referred to my desire to make a film about the Trump administration. I think I maybe amended desire with appetite or something like that. Appetite even, which is a more ferocious desire. I would like for the record to clarify that it is not part of my current plan or appetite to make a film about this administration.

我作为一名公民正在经历这一切，并以其他方式追求我的艺术。 noted。不过，简短补充一下，说实话，我的机敏是从观看纪录片中学来的。我知道没有比纪录片界的同事们更狡猾的故事讲述者了。这是一个非凡的社群，每年都有惊人的作品问世。

I'm experiencing it as a citizen, and I'm pursuing my art in other ways. Noted. However, short addendum, I learned my craftiness by watching documentary films, if we're being honest. I know no craftier storytellers than my colleagues in the documentary world. It's an extraordinary community with amazing work being done every year.

新电影正在推动形式创新，并响应这种形式在商业上取得成功的呼声。由于娱乐行业的挑战以及几年前巅峰节目泡沫破裂的事实，现在的挑战比以往任何时候都更大。因此更需要巧思匠心。时间差不多了。我还有1800个问题想问您，但我只是好奇。

New films that push the form and are rising to the call of the popular success of the form. And the challenges are greater now than ever because of the challenges in the entertainment industry and the fact that the bubble burst a few years ago in terms of peak programming. So craftiness is called on even more. We're just about at time. I have another 1,800 questions I could ask you, but I'm just curious.

有没有哪部电影、话题、想法、人物、家人、宠物，或者任何您想谈但我没问到的事情？哦，我很感激您已经涵盖了这么多内容。我的狗叫德克斯特。在这些采访中它很少被提及，但它确实教会了我和妻子如何养育孩子。它每天都在教导我们爱与同理心，它是条好狗。

Is there a film, a topic, an idea, a person, a family member, a pet, anything you do wanna talk about that I haven't asked about? Oh, I'm grateful that you've covered so much. My dog's name is Dexter. He gets very little attention in these interviews, but he is, he taught my wife and I about how to raise kids. He teaches us every day about love and empathy, and he's a good man.

既然您给了我机会赞美它，那我就说了。这位是RJ·卡特勒，很久以前也曾短暂被称为罗伯·卡特勒。我要感谢他今天的对话以及他多年来制作的电影。他对叙事的专注令我十分钦佩。我很想知道您对本期节目的看法。

So since you gave me the chance to sing his praises, I will. That was RJ Cutler, also known as Rob Cutler, briefly, a long time ago. I'd like to thank him for the conversation today and the films he's made over the years. He's got a dedication to storytelling that I really admire. I would love to know what you thought about this episode.

我们的邮箱是radio@Freakonomics.com。如果您有任何建议要给卡特勒，我们一定会转达。下期节目预告：棒球并非从失败中学习的唯一途径。

Our email is radio@Freakonomics.com. And if you have any ideas for Cutler, we'll be sure to pass them along. Coming up next time on the show, baseball is not the only way to learn from failure.

我们未能充分从失败中学习的一个重要原因，是我们没有系统地分享失败经验。

One big reason we don't learn enough from failures is that we don't share them systematically enough.

这让人觉得可能是你能力不足。

That makes it look like maybe you were incompetent.

大脑只知道你被抛弃了。

The brain just knows that you've been abandoned.

我的部分问题在于我没有问足够多的问题。

Part of my problem was I did not ask enough questions.

我认为那是我崩溃的临界点，我当时就想，我受够了，这彻底击垮了我。

I think that was my tipping point where I just went, I'm done, and it broke me.

但我们不希望你们被击垮。我们将审视失败的关系、想象力的失败、决心的失败，以及如何克服它们。这是我们下一期节目，我们将重新审视并更新我们的系列——如何在失败中取得成功。在那之前，请照顾好自己，如果可能的话，也照顾一下他人。《魔鬼经济学》广播由Stitcher和Renbud Radio制作。

But we don't want you to be broken. We look at failed relationships, failures of the imagination, failures of determination, and how to overcome them. That's next time as we revisit and update our series, how to succeed at failing. Until then, take care of yourself, and if you can, someone else too. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio.

您可以在任何播客应用上找到我们的全部档案，也可以在freakonomics.com上找到，我们在那里发布完整的文字记录和节目说明。本期节目由Zach Lipinski制作，Morgan Levy协助。混音由Jasmine Klinger完成，Jeremy Johnston协助。《魔鬼经济学》广播网络团队还包括Alina Coleman、Augusta Chapman、Dalvin Abouaji、Eleanor Osborne、Ellen Frankman、Elsa Hernandez、Gabriel Roth、Greg Rippon、Sarah Lilly和Teo Jacobs。我们的主题曲是Hitchhikers的《Mister Fortune》，作曲是Luis Guerra。

You can find our entire archive on any podcast app also at freakonomics.com where we publish complete transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Zach Lipinski with help from Morgan Levy. It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger with help from Jeremy Johnston. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Alina Coleman, Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Gabriel Roth, Greg Rippon, Sarah Lilly, and Teo Jacobs. Our theme song is Mister Fortune by the Hitchhikers, and our composer is Luis Guerra.

一如既往，感谢您的收听。需要明确的是，我们确实获得了您的专利批准和许可，可以在我们的项目制作中使用这些材料。对吗？是的，您确实批准了。

As always, thank you for listening. Just to be clear, we do have your patent approval and permission to use this material in the making of our project. Correct? Yes. You do.

您拥有最终剪辑权。

You have final cut.

《魔鬼经济学》广播网络，万物隐藏的一面。

The Freakonomics Radio Network, the hidden side of everything.

缝合者。

Stitcher.