本·斯蒂勒 / 佩德罗·帕斯卡

当我们独自在家时，情况有点像放任自流。

And it was kind of like a free for all a little bit when we were on our own.

我们有时会熬夜，试图偷偷溜出去。

You We'd stay up late sometimes, try to sneak out.

随着我们长大成为青少年，又有了其他事情发生。

And as we got older and became teenagers, then there were other things going on.

我姐姐大概17岁时开始去Studio 54。

Like, my sister started going to Studio fifty four when she was I think she was, like, 17.

我想我现在可以跟特里聊聊这个了。

And l guess l can talk about this, Terry, now.

我当时13岁，她会带着我和她的朋友们一起去Studio 54，我们偷偷溜进去。

L was 13, and she would take me to Studio fifty four with her friends and we'd sneak us in.

是的。

Yeah.

你们是怎么进入Studio 54的？

How did you get into Studio fifty four?

我的意思是，你知道，在Studio fifty four，整个地方都是在外面的。

I mean You know, at Studio fifty four, like, the whole thing was outside.

那里，你知道，有很多人等着进去。

There you know, there's, like, people waiting to get in.

对吧？

Right?

保安得挑人放你进去。

The bouncers have to choose you.

对。

Yeah.

而且这在一定程度上取决于你有多吸引人。

And part of it depended on how attractive you were.

没错。

Exactly.

还取决于他们如何策划当晚的氛围。

And how they were curating the night.

对吧？

Right?

这个叫马克的人是主要的门卫。

And this guy Mark was the the main bouncer.

不知怎么的，我妹妹艾米和她的朋友维基跟他一起进去了。

Somehow Amy, my sister, and her friend Vicky, they had gotten in with him.

你知道，这其实是个问题。

And, you know, it's a question.

艾米和我讨论过，他是否知道我们的父母，也就是斯蒂尔或者米拉。

Amy and I have talked about whether or not he knew that our parents were, you know, still or Meera.

也许这和这件事有关。

Maybe that had something to do with it.

我不确定。

I don't know.

但他总是选她们进去。

But he would pick them to go in.

有一晚，艾米对我说，艾米和维基说：我们要给你打扮一下，带你去Studio 54。

And one night, Amy said to me Amy and Vicky said, like, we're gonna dress you up and we're gonna take you to Studio 54.

我们要让你进去。

We're gonna get you in.

那时候我父母都不在家。

This is when my parents were out of town.

他们给我穿上了一件黄绿相间的波点Fiorucci衬衫。

And they put me in a yellow and green polka dotted Fiorucci shirt.

Fiorucci当时是一家商店。

Fiorucci was the store at the time.

那是当时很时髦的时尚商店。

That was like the cool fashion store.

还有一件军装夹克和一副米老鼠太阳镜。

And an army jacket and these Mickey Mouse sunglasses.

我们上去后，马克看到了我们，指着我们说：进来吧。

And we went up and Mark saw us, and he pointed to us and said, Come on in.

我们就进去了。

And we were in.

这种情况发生过几次。

And it happened a few times.

所以我想我当时13岁。

So I think I was 13.

工作室54号出名的一件事就是很多人吸可卡因。

Well, one of the things Studio fifty four was famous for was people doing a lot of coke.

你看到了哪些你本不该看到的东西？

What did you see that you probably shouldn't have been exposed to?

我的意思是，我不记得看到有人在浴室里做那种事，但我记得在楼上阳台看到有人在接吻，还有那个平均白人乐队。

I mean, I don't remember seeing people, like, doing stuff, you know, like that in the bathrooms or, you know but I remember being in the upper the balcony and seeing there were, like, people making out, and the average white band.

我记得在那里和平均白人乐队聊过天。

I remember talking to the average white band there.

对于不知道这个乐队的人来说，那就是乐队的名字。

And for people don't know the band, that's the name of the band.

平均

The average

白乐队是一个乐队。

white band was a band.

你不是在说

You're not calling the band

白人平均。

of white people average.

是的。

Yeah.

但我的意思是，我记得当时也跳舞，非常投入地跳舞。

But I mean, I remember dancing too and being really into dancing there.

而且，是的，那有点像，你知道，一群孩子独自在外，放纵自由，你知道的。

And, yeah, it was a little bit you know, look, it was definitely, you know, kind of like feral kids out on on our own, you know.

你父母有没有发现你趁他们不在时做的某些事情？

Did your parents ever find out some of the things you did when they were gone?

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实知道了。

They they did.

我曾经在一个脱口秀上也谈过这件事。

I I I talked about this on a talk show once too.

有一次我父母出去参加‘爱的投票’时，我服用了LSD，然后……

I took LSD once my parents were out doing the the love vote once and

我喜欢把‘爱的投票’和你服用致幻剂的经历作比较。

I I love the comparison between the love vote you being on a hallucinogenic.

是的。

Yeah.

我就是那个在服用LSD时给父母打电话的人。

And I call I I was the guy who called his parents on on LSD.

我害怕了，就打电话给在洛杉矶的父母。

I called them up in LA because I was scared.

我当时经历了一次糟糕的旅程，这是我唯一一次服用LSD。

I was having a bad trip, the only time I ever did LSD.

我和妈妈说了，她真的对我很生气。

And I talked to and my mom was really got really mad at me.

我爸爸反而要好得多，试着安慰我，帮我平静下来。

And my dad was actually much nicer and kinda had tried to help talk me down.

他说：我理解你正在经历什么。

And he said, I understand what you're going through.

当我11岁的时候，我抽了一根劣质香烟，结果病了两天。

When I was 11 years old, I smoked a pell mell cigarette and I was sick for two days.

我当时说：不，爸爸。

And I was like, no, dad.

你根本不理解。

You don't understand.

我真的不明白什么是现实。

Like, I don't understand what reality is.

但他很棒。

But he was great.

他对此真的很支持。

He was actually great about it.

帮你冷静下来？

In talking you down?

是的。

Yeah.

不。

No.

后来有一段时间，我有点被吓到了。

When and when and I was, like, freaked out a little when for a while afterwards.

我因为那次经历感到害怕，你知道的。

I I was scared, you know, from the experience.

我爸爸真是太好了。

And my dad was so great.

我记得他带我去兜风，然后停了车，说我们来冥想一会儿吧。

He I remember he took me for a drive, and and he parked the car, and he said, like, let's just meditate a little bit.

他让我闭上眼睛，想象一种颜色。

And like, he had me close my eyes and just picture a color.

我想应该是紫色之类的。

I think it was like purple or something.

他说，就把它当作一种令人平静的颜色。

He said, just like think of it as a soothing color.

我不知道他是不是自己也在接受治疗，所以想到了这个办法，但他确实真的很想帮我平复情绪，从这件事中恢复过来。

And I don't know if he had been doing some therapy himself that he had this idea to do this, but he was just actually, you know, really trying to help me kind of, you know, soothe myself and get get over this event.

而不是那种典型的父母，比如‘以后再也不要这样了’，或者‘你被禁足了’之类的。

And as opposed to like a a parent who was like, you know, like, never do that again and, you know, you're grounded or whatever.

我觉得这太棒了，是的。

I think it's wonderful that Yeah.

你在幻觉发作时能这么放心地给父亲打电话，我觉得很好。

You felt comfortable enough with your father to call him while you were tripping.

是的。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这很有趣，你知道，因为这种事你从来不会想到。

I mean, that's interesting, you know, because that's one of those things you don't think about.

这就像一种本能的直觉反应，而我就是这么做的。

It's just like this visceral gut reaction, and that's what I did.

我想，这确实说明了我们之间的关系。

And I, you know, I guess that does say something about our relationship.

但对我来说，他一直是个很有灵性的人，而且我认为这也是人们与他产生共鸣的原因，因为他有一颗非常开放的心。

But he was always, for me, a very spiritual person and very I think that's what people connected with him too because he had just like a really open heart.

电影中有一个特别突出的场景。

There's a scene in the movie that's a real standout scene.

你正在和你的儿子交谈，他在电影的某些部分采访你，这样你就可以向某人讲述故事。

You're talking to your son who's kind of interviewing you during part of the film so that you can tell stories and be telling them to someone.

嗯。

Mhmm.

而且不仅仅是对别人，而是对你自己的儿子。

And not only someone, to your own son.

于是你告诉他，当你和父亲聊天时，有粉丝过来打断对话，而你父亲却会去关注那个粉丝，这对你来说有多奇怪。

And so you're telling him about how weird it was for you when you were having a conversation with your father, and a fan would come up and interrupt the conversation, and your father would pay attention to the fan.

对。

Right.

是的。

Yeah.

我和我儿子聊过，关于我父母在世时，他们经常在街上被人认出来，我妈妈通常不愿意和人聊太久，她只会打个招呼，然后就想继续走自己的路，你知道的。

I was talking to my son about how, yeah, growing up with my parents, they would get recognized, and on the street, my my mom usually wouldn't wanna talk to to people for a long time or she'd say hi, but she wanted to just go on, you know, and just keep doing her thing.

而我爸爸则会和人聊上很久。

And my dad would would talk to people forever.

如果有人想和他说话，他就会和对方聊起他们的家庭，话题没完没了。

Like if someone wanted to talk to him, he would he would, you know, get into conversations about their family and it would just go on and on.

这常常让我妈妈气得不行。

It used to drive my mother crazy.

作为孩子，我们会感觉到，你知道，当你还小的时候，你会觉得父母的注意力被别人从你身上夺走了。

And as kids, we would feel that, you know, when you're little, you you feel that your parents' attention being taken away from you.

所以我跟昆恩，我的儿子，聊了这件事，他打断了我，然后

So I was talking about that with Quinn, my son, and he interrupts me, and

我们来听听他怎么说，好吧。

We'll we'll play what he has Okay.

所以，这是昆恩。

To So so here's Quinn.

这其实很搞笑，因为就在几周前，我们全家在餐厅吃饭，我当时正为大学的事情感到压力很大。

Well, that's actually hilarious because just a few weeks ago, we were all out at a restaurant and I had been stressed about college stuff.

然后那里的人想跟你合影。

And then the people there wanted to get like a picture with you.

我记得我当时特别沮丧，觉得整个世界都得停下来给你拍这张照片。

Then I just remember I was so frustrated like the world just has to stop to get this picture.

你懂我的意思吗？

You know what I mean?

我想我得到了

I think I got

所以本·斯蒂勒，当你的儿子告诉你这件事时，感觉怎么样？

So Ben Stiller, what was it like when your son told you that?

我感到惊讶，但又不觉得意外。

I was surprised, yet not surprised.

我惊讶的是他居然在那一刻提到了这件事，而且他举的例子如此贴近当下。

I was surprised that he actually brought that up in that moment, and that the example he was using was so recent.

但在那一刻，我想，好吧，这可能真的是拍这部电影的一个绝佳时机。

But it was and in that moment, I was like, okay, this is actually probably a really good moment for the movie.

但作为一个人，我当时也觉得，哦，这真让人头疼。

But I also, as a person, was feeling like, oh, this is really ugh, gosh.

当时我唯一能说的就是：哦，是啊，我想我身上确实有很多我父亲的影子，甚至比母亲的还多。

And and all I could say in the moment was like, oh, yeah, I guess I guess I have like a lot of my dad in me, or more of my dad in me than my mom.

这种认知就是——这对我来说并不是一个全新的领悟，但你知道，你总想比父母做得更好，但要完全避免重蹈他们的覆辙，真的很难。

And it's just that realization that And I I It wasn't a new realization for me, but, you know, that thing of like, you really try to do better than your parents, but it's very hard to not make some of the same mistakes that they make.

你当时意识到自己在这么做吗？

Were you even aware that you were doing that?

我没有意识到，没有。

I wasn't aware no.

我当时并不知道，让我惊讶的是，他说的这件事发生在他20岁的时候，而且他说是上周才发生的。

I was not you know, what surprised me about what he said was, because he's 20, that that had happened, like, he said, like, last week.

我以为，嗯，这应该是他小时候发生的事，你知道的？

And I thought, well, I thought, well, this is something that happened when he was little, you know?

但事实上，这件事至今仍对他有影响，这一点真的让我很震撼。

But the fact that he it actually, like, affected him still at this age, you know, that actually really did hit me.

你知道，这让我意识到，这确实是他必须面对的现实。

You know, just as an awareness of like, yeah, this is a reality that he had to live with.

我也曾带着自己的版本，和我的父母一起经历过这些。

I had to live with my own version of it with my parents.

但这确实是一件很难的事。

But it's it's a tough thing.

你是一名制片人、导演和演员。

You are a producer, a director, an actor.

你刚刚完成了一部关于你父母的纪录片。

You just finished a documentary about your parents.

所以你既要与其他演员合作，又要探索自己的家族历史，还要经营一家制作公司。

So you're dealing with working with other actors, investigating your own family history, running a production company.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你是如何应对这一切压力的？

How do you deal with all the stress of that?

还有这份责任，真的太多了。

And the responsibility, that's a lot.

是啊。

Yeah.

我的意思是，这段时间一直很忙。

I mean, it's been a busy time.

对我来说，我知道哪些地方让我感到舒适和放松，那些地方就是我的安全港，对我来说，这最终变成了回家，能够关掉一切，找到如何做到这一点的方法。

For me, I I know the places that I feel comfortable and relaxed and, you know, like the kind of safe haven, and that to me has has become going home and being able to, like, turn it off and figure out how to do that, finally.

我想我已经在某种程度上弄明白了，回到家后，我可以真正享受与家人在一起的时光。

I think I've figured that out, at least to a certain extent, that I can get home and really enjoy being with my family.

我的孩子现在都搬出去了，但你知道，当他们在家时，感觉很棒。

My kids are both out of the house now, but, you know, when they're around, it's great.

但和克里斯汀在一起，只是随便聊聊，和我女儿一起看《比佛利娇妻》之类的节目，就是找到这些时刻，真正地放松一下。

But with Christine, you know, just hanging out together and watching, you know, Real Housewives of Beverly Hills with my daughter or, you know, something like that, you know, kind of just finding those moments to kind of, like, unplug.

你知道，我发现这真的非常有帮助。

You know, I found that that really, really helps.

然后呢，另一件事就是享受我正在做的工作和项目，我只参与那些我真正关心、真正想做的事情。

And then I you know, the other thing is just enjoying the work and the projects that I'm working on that I I'm only working on things I really care about and I really wanna be doing.

本·斯蒂勒的纪录片《斯蒂勒与米拉：一切并未失去》现已在Apple TV上线。

Ben Stiller's documentary Stiller and Mira, Nothing is Lost, is now streaming on Apple TV.

他接受了特里·格罗斯的采访。

He spoke with Terry Gross.

接下来，我们将听到我与佩德罗·帕斯卡的访谈。

Coming up, we'll hear my interview with Pedro Pascal.

我是塔尼娅·莫斯利，欢迎收听《新鲜空气》周末版。

I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is fresh air weekend.

如果你最近看过电视、去过电影院，甚至只是瞥了一眼公交站的广告，很可能已经见过佩德罗·帕斯卡凝视着你的脸。

If you've watched TV, gone to the movies, or even glanced at a bus stop ad recently, you've probably seen Pedro Pascal staring back at you.

仅去年一年，他的面孔就出现在《神奇四侠》、《第一步》、《埃丁顿》和塞琳·宋的《唯物主义者》等影片的海报和广告牌上。

Last year alone, his face has been splashed across posters and billboards for the fantastic four, First Steps, Eddington, and Celine Song's materialists.

帕斯卡已成为好莱坞最具魅力的男主角之一，常饰演像《曼达洛人》和《最后生还者》中那些在最意想不到的地方找到家人的 reluctant protectors（不愿承担责任的保护者）。

Pascal has become one of Hollywood's most magnetic leading men, often playing reluctant protectors like in the Mandalorian and the Last of Us who find family in the unlikeliest of places.

这种银幕上‘被选择的家庭’与他个人生活的联系，在2023年他主持《周六夜现场》的独白中变得格外鲜明——他感谢父母为带他从南美来到美国所做出的牺牲，这段旅程始于政治流亡，并部分塑造了他饰演边缘人物寻找归属感的职业生涯。

That connection between found family on screen and his own life came into sharp focus during his Saturday night live monologue back in 2023 when he credited his parents for making sacrifices to bring him to The United States from South America, a journey that began with political exile and helped shape a career defined in part by portraying outsiders finding their way in.

这种个人经历与银幕上脆弱感的结合，使他成为好莱坞罕见的、让观众感觉仿佛真正了解的明星。

That combination of personal history and on screen vulnerability has made him something rare in Hollywood, a star that people feel like they know.

最近《纽约客》的一幅漫画完美地捕捉到了这一点。

A recent New Yorker cartoon captured it perfectly.

一位治疗师告诉客户，最近很多人都表示，他们对人性的信心完全取决于佩德罗·帕斯卡尔是否如他看起来那样善良。

A therapist tells a client that lately, a lot of people are reporting that their faith in humanity is riding entirely on whether or not Pedro Pascal is as nice as he seems.

佩德罗·帕斯卡尔，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。

Pedro Pascal, welcome to Fresh Air.

是什么让你选择了表演？

What was it about acting?

因为你刚才提到，你从四岁起就想当演员。

Because I you started talking about wanting to be an actor at, like, four years old.

我出生于1975年。

Well, I was born in '75.

想想看，在电影院里看《E》。

And just think about seeing E.

T。

T.

在电影院里。

In the movie theater.

你知道吗？

You know?

想想看《鬼驱人》和《鬼怪》还有《小精灵》，你知道的？

Think about seeing Poltergeist and The Goonies and, you know, gremlins and you know?

所以这成了我构建幻想的非常容易的来源，嗯。

So I this very, very easy source of building a fantasy Mhmm.

那种希望你正生活在这些冒险中、体验这些冒险，或是参与讲述这些故事的冒险的感觉。

Of of, you know, wishing you were either living these adventures, experiencing these adventures, or part of the adventure of telling those stories.

嗯。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

我不断发现一些小细节，比如你对《紫色》着迷。

I keep coming across these little details, like you being obsessed with The Color Purple.

嗯。

Yeah.

詹姆斯·鲍德温的《为有色女孩而作》和《杀死一只知更鸟》。

James Baldwin for Colored Girls, To Kill a Mockingbird.

所以你也非常热爱文学。

So you were really into literature as well.

我正试图拼凑出这个孩子究竟是谁。

And I'm trying to piece together who is this kid?

你会如何描述

How would you describe

那时的自己？

yourself back then?

你是个情感丰富的孩子，但这些世界为你提供了什么？

You were a deeply feeling child, but what did these worlds provide for you?

因为，你知道，这些故事对其他人来说只是娱乐，但对你而言，似乎还有更深的层次，让你完全沉浸其中。

Because, you know, they're entertaining for everyone else, but it sounds like there was another step for you where you felt immersed in them.

嗯，我认为被触动时，你会感觉非常有生命力。

Well, I think being moved, you feel very alive.

你会感到非常受鼓舞，你知道，在学校里，通过非凡的叙事、出色的表演和杰出的文学作品。

You feel very inspired, you know, and in school, in a way, by incredible storytelling, incredible performances, incredible literature.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以《紫色》这部作品的创作过程非常有趣，因为我们家有有线电视，惠普·戈德堡有一档电视节目，后来被搬上百老汇，再由HBO拍摄播出。

So the process around The Color Purple is very interesting because we had cable TV, and Whoopi Goldberg had a televised show that had been transferred to Broadway and then shot for television for HBO.

节目就叫《胡皮》。

Was just called Whoopee.

是的。

Yes.

她扮演了多个不同的角色，我简直惊呆了。

And she was playing a bunch of different characters, and I was just floored.

那太神奇了。

It was magic.

通过《胡皮》这个节目，我看了很多遍。

And with that show Whoopee, I mean, I saw that so many times.

我可以演绎她的一些现代作品。

I could do some of her modern works.

毛巾里的头发。

The hair in the towel.

天哪。

Oh, my gosh.

他说，好吧。

And he said, okay.

我说，好吧。

I said, okay.

我们说，好吧。

We said, okay.

好吧。

Okay.

我的意思是，我真的从八十年代以来就没再看过那部了。

And I mean, I literally haven't I haven't seen that since, I think, the eighties.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

而且这已经深深印在心里了。

And it's imprinted.

对吧？

Right?

然后，我从电影院走出来，看到一张海报，上面是惠普·戈德堡坐在摇椅上的剪影，嗯。

And then, I'm walking out of a movie, and I see a poster of this, like, silhouette of Whoopi Goldberg in a rocking chair Mhmm.

紫色的，嗯。

With purple Mhmm.

上面有史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的名字，还有惠普·戈德堡的名字，字体是《紫色》的颜色。

And Steven Spielberg's name on it, and her name, Whoopi Goldberg, in the color purple.

我只是觉得，我完全被它的营销打动了。

And I'm just like, here I am completely moved by the marketing of it.

我觉得这部电影是一部杰作，我认为这是电影史上最伟大的银幕表演之一。

And I think the movie is a masterpiece, and I think it's one of the greatest screen performances in the history of cinema Mhmm.

她在完全新手的经历中，第一次上镜头就做到了这一点。

That she did in her purely freshman experience, her first time on camera

嗯。

Yeah.

在电影里。

On film.

嗯。

Yeah.

她的第一个电影角色。

Her first movie role.

对。

Right.

我坦率地说被它深深震撼了，以一种最好的方式，我无法释怀。

And I just was frankly overwhelmed, you know, by it in the best way, and I couldn't let it go.

所以我必须去买这本书，然后读了它。

So I had to get the book, and I read the book.

你走路时都带着

You'd walk around with

这本书？

the book?

我会拿着它。

I would hold it.

是的。

Yeah.

我会像对待珍宝一样紧紧拿着它。

I will I would hold it like a like a like a treasure.

你妈妈从你身上看到了这一点。

Your mom saw this in you.

她看到了，并因为这一点想与你建立联系。

She saw this and wanted to connect with you because of it.

你们会有家庭电影之夜。

You guys would have these family movie nights.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

描述一下，我爸爸是那个看电影的人。

Describe what that My dad was my dad was the was the was the moviegoer.

我妈妈比较挑剔。

My my mom was selective.

她会更留意，如果我特别喜欢一本书，或者有王子的电影。

She would fall for she would notice much more if I if I was, like, really into a book or if Prince was in it.

所以你是

So you're

一个狂热的王子粉丝。

a big Prince Prince fan.

但是

But

那也

that also

不是。

was No.

她是普林斯的粉丝。

She was the Prince fan.

好吧。

Okay.

她是个超级普林斯粉丝，这间接让我也成了普林斯的铁粉。

She was the huge Prince fan, which by proxy made me a big Prince fan.

那差不多就是《紫雨》上映的时候。

And that's around Purple Rain time.

哦，对。

Oh, yeah.

这些电影之夜是什么样的？

What were these movie nights like?

这些家庭电影之夜？

These family movie nights?

《紫雨》就是一个完美的例子，说明我们所有人都一起去看了。

Well, Purple Rain is a a perfect example of where we all went together.

比如，我爸爸会尽量在上学的晚上带我们去看他想看的任何电影。

Like, my dad would try to, you know, take us on a school night whenever he got a chance to whatever he wanted to see.

但《紫雨》不一样，我们所有人都要去。

But Purple Rain was like, we're all going.

你知道的？

You know?

我想，那些是我最珍贵的回忆。

And I guess they're sort of, you know, my most special memories.

我们家是非常典型的看电影家庭。

We're very sort of like movie going family.

我姐姐热爱舞蹈，学过芭蕾。

My older sister has a love of dance and did ballet.

所以小时候，因为她学芭蕾，我们经常去看芭蕾舞剧。

So we would go to the as a child, she studied ballet, and so we would go to the ballet a lot.

我一开始很讨厌，但直到我看了一场特别搞笑的《仲夏夜之梦》演出，才开始真正欣赏舞蹈所传达的叙事魅力。

I hated it at first until I saw, I think, a really hilarious production of a A Midsummer Night's Dream, and then started to kind of really appreciate the kind of storytelling that happened through through dance.

你跳过舞吗？

Did you ever dance?

我

I

没跳过。

didn't.

我没跳过舞。

I didn't dance.

我的意思是，只要有机会，我就会跳一跳。

I mean, I danced, you know, like, at at any chance I got.

嗯。

Yeah.

去打印一些东西之类的。

To prints and stuff.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

嗯。

Yeah.

我在家里到处跳舞。

I danced around the house.

嗯。

Yeah.

我在父母的派对、圣诞节、新年等所有这些场合都跳过舞。

Danced around my parents' parties, Christmas, New Year's, all that all that stuff.

我从未上过舞蹈课。

I never took class.

但后来我母亲发现了一个表演艺术项目，我从高中一年级一直参加到毕业。

But then in a performing arts program that my mother found that I I went to from my freshman year in high school to graduation.

你必须学习舞蹈。

You had to study dance.

比如演《西区故事》，我喜欢跳舞，后来在大学里真的开始认真投入一种你可能会称之为后现代即兴舞蹈的风格。

You know, did West Side Story, and and I love dancing and and actually got sort of really seriously into, I guess, what you would call sort of postmodern style of improvisational dance in college.

毕业后，我唯一能找到的工作其实是通过舞蹈教授做的，很多都是在下城地区的演出。

And that was the only work I could get when I graduated actually, were through movement professors and doing a lot of downtown stuff.

你说的下城是指什么？

When you say downtown, what do you mean?

第14街以南。

South Of 14th Street.

好的。

Okay.

圣马克教堂。

Saint Mark's Church.

好的。

Okay.

下东区。

Lower East Side.

是的。

Yeah.

东村，特定场地的表演。

East Village, site specific performances.

这个名为《得墨忒耳的女儿》的作品，由编舞家塔玛尔·罗戈夫构思，她是克莱尔·丹妮斯的终身家族朋友和导师。

This this this piece called Demeter's Daughter that was conceived by a choreographer named Tamar Rogoff, who is a lifelong family friend and mentor to Claire Danes.

而且

And What

你们会为他们做些什么类型的事情？

kinds of stuff would you do for them?

是的。

Yeah.

我们喜欢后现代舞，就是那种创造动作和舞蹈的方式。

We like like postmodern dance, like like, you know, sort of create movement and dance.

然后这并不是那种‘这就是编舞，去学吧’的东西。

And then it wasn't the kind of thing like, this is the choreography.

学它。

Learn it.

而是让我们动起来。

It was like, let's move

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后我们一起创作。

And let's write this together.

有点像为身体进行即兴创作。

Kinda like improvisation but for for the body.

针对身体的运动。

For body movement.

我对这种身体性非常着迷，因为你扮演的所有角色都有一种身体上的紧绷感。

I'm so fascinated about that physicality because there is a holding of the body in all the characters that you play.

我想到了《最后生还者》里的角色。

I'm thinking about in The Last of Us.

你会怎么描述乔尔身体里所承载的东西？

Like, how would you describe what Joel is holding in his body?

是的。

Yeah.

首先，他承载着很多创伤。

Holding a lot of trauma, one.

更简单地说，这是一个靠双手工作的人。

And then in a more simple way, this is a man who works with his hands.

他是个承包商，会建造东西。

He's a contractor, and he builds things.

我认为，他通过与工作、维护以及类似事务的肢体互动来表达自己。

He, I think, expresses himself through his physical relationship to work and to maintenance and and that kind of thing.

所以，这就像是理解一个用手做粗活、与体力劳动保持稳定关系的人。

So it's sort of like understanding a person who works very roughly with his hands and is in sort of a very consistent relationship to physical labor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

你知道吗？

You know?

是的。

Yeah.

这种方式可能正是他所喜爱的，因为这比交谈要简单得多。

In a way that that that he probably loves because it's way easier than having a conversation.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

对。

Right.

但你和舞蹈的历史非常有趣，因为你的很多表演都极具身体性。

But it's so fascinating about you and your your history with dancing because, I mean, so much of well, so much of your acting is so physical.

比如，我正想到你出演的很多电影。

Like, I'm just thinking about a lot of films that you're in.

你所做的一切有着巨大的无声力量，但你是通过身体来讲述故事的。

There's so much silent power in what you're doing, but it's through your body that you're telling the story.

《权力的游戏》就是一个完美的例子，让你体验到了那种角色带来的巨大关注度。

Well, Game of Thrones being a perfect example of, like, experiencing, you know, that level of exposure for a part.

有人会说，这个角色最出名的就是打斗场面。

And one would argue that what the role is most known for is the fight.

是的。

Yes.

这比你想象的还要像舞蹈。

And that is more dance than you can possibly believe.

嗯。

Yeah.

如果你不想被杀的话，你知道的？

If you don't wanna get killed anyway, you know?

这就是最纯粹的肢体表现，也是最纯粹的编舞。

That is that is that is physicality in its purest form, and that is choreography in its purest form.

所以这很讽刺，因为接这个工作的时候我已经快四十了。

So it's just ironic because I was already pushing 40 when that job happened.

对。

Right.

因此，打开的门实际上是朝着动作片领域倾斜的，充满了极其、极其、极其高强度的肢体编排，远超我的想象。

And so the doors that opened were, frankly, leaning in the world of action and a lot of highly, highly, highly physical choreography in the experiences, more so than I could have ever imagined.

我之前在舞台上做过很多打斗编排，比如莎士比亚戏剧之类的，但这次完全是另一个层次。

Having had a lot of, like, fight choreography on stage, you know, in Shakespeare and and and all that, but this was, like, another level.

你的家族历史非常引人入胜，因为父母在你还是婴儿时就逃离了智利。

Your family history is fascinating because your parents fled Chile when you were a baby.

成长过程中，你听到的故事是什么？

Growing up, what was the story that you heard?

其实，我从来没听过关于那段时间的任何故事。

You know, I didn't hear any stories about it, actually.

现在我会去问，才听到一些故事。

And I hear stories now because I I ask.

我也感受到一种强烈的愿望，想要分享和讲述那段经历的意义——比如我父亲的姐妹们如何与弟弟告别，我母亲的家人如何生活在她被迫躲藏的恐惧之中。

And I also am met with the sort of desire to share and desire to tell what it meant for, you know, my father's sisters to say goodbye to their brother, in in that way, for my mother's family to live in the terror of the experience of her going into hiding.

因为故事是怎样的，因为这个故事

Because what's the story because the story

你后来了解到，你的父母当时非常年轻。

that you came to learn your parents were very young.

你当时还是个婴儿，他们从南美洲逃到了美国的德克萨斯州。

You were a baby and they fled from South America to The United States to Texas.

是的。

Yes.

我们最初在丹麦获得了庇护。

We had asylum in Denmark first.

如果不是有人帮我的父亲在德克萨斯州圣安东尼奥的实验室谋得职位，我们可能会一直留在那里。

And we're likely to, you know, stay there were it not for somebody that helped hire my father into his, lab in San Antonio, Texas.

你的父母为什么被流放？

Why were your parents exiled?

哦，他们参与了反对皮诺切特军事政权的反对运动。

Oh, well, they were involved in the opposition movement against the military regime under Pinochet.

他们是阿连德的支持者，而且说实话，当时非常年轻且自由派。

They were Allenda supporters and, frankly, just very young and liberal.

我母亲这边的家族中，有一位我母亲的表弟，安德烈斯·帕斯卡尔，他是反对运动的领导人。

And my mother's side of the family, there's a cousin of my mother's, Andres Pascal, who was a leader of the opposition movement.

因此，我认为仅仅因为这种关联，就可能让这个名字和家人陷入危险。

And so that I think just by association sort of could put the name and family in in peril.

但有一个人把一个受伤的男人带到我父母家，知道我父亲当时正在医院做住院医师，请求帮助，因为那人腿部中了枪。

But there was someone who brought an injured man to my mother's and father's home knowing that my father was doing his residency at a hospital and asked for help, and he'd been shot in the leg.

是位神父把他带到我们家的，而那时我还是个婴儿，显然没有任何记忆。

And the it was a it was a priest who brought him over to to our house, and and, you know, at this point, I'm an infant, so obviously I have no memory.

但那位神父被逮捕了，遭受了酷刑，然后供出了名字，于是他们开始寻找我的父母，于是他们不得不躲藏起来，想办法生存下去。

But the priest was taken into custody and he was tortured and he gave names and then they went looking looking for my parents and and, you know, and so they they had to, you know, go into hiding and and find a way to survive.

这其中有很多细节，构成了一个非常引人入胜的故事——比如，我父亲偶然得知有人在大厅里打听他的名字，而这时一位病人突然打断了那个军官准备询问我父亲身份的时刻——‘你是不是巴尔马塞塔医生？’，而那位病人却说：‘我好痛，没人来管我！’——我甚至在想……

There are a lot of details that kinda go into it that that create, like, such a fascinating story that the the the odd circumstance of my father finding out that someone was in the lobby asking for his name and and a patient that kind of like interrupted the moment where the officer wanted to was about to ask my father who he was or his name, if he was doctor in fact, doctor Balmaceta, and and and and a patient that was like, you know, I'm in pain and and and no one is attending to me, and I almost wonder.

我的意思是，你得小心，因为你得弄清楚，你围绕这件事构建了多少故事，哪些是真实的？

I mean, you know, you gotta be careful because you you know, what how much story do you build around it and and and what's really real?

但这一切都是一个偶然的机缘。

But this was this chance circumstance

嗯。

Mhmm.

这给了我父亲一个机会，从后门溜出去，去接我母亲，然后一起躲藏起来。

That gave my father the opportunity to sneak out the back to go and and get my mother and and and and go into hiding.

他们是对的，因为敌人真的来到了家里。

And and they were right because they came to the house.

他们逃走了。

They ran.

他们把家里翻了个底朝天，大约六个月后，他们才找到计划，偷偷潜入委内瑞拉大使馆，申请庇护，并与我和姐姐团聚。

They they tore everything apart, and it was about six months before they found a plan to sneak into the Venezuelan embassy and claim asylum and be reunited with my sister and I.

在成年后才得知这样的故事，真是令人震撼。

What a story to learn in adulthood.

这并不是一种传说。

It's not a lore.

这不是你从小就知道并引以为豪的故事。

It's not a story you grew up knowing and having pride in.

没错。

Right.

我对此有所感觉。

I had a sense of it.

我记得有一次特别清晰的经历，看了电影《失踪》。

I remember one very, very vivid experience of seeing the movie missing.

你看，有趣的是，我们这个核家庭住在德克萨斯州圣安东尼奥的郊区，却有着并不遥远的逃亡往事。

See, this is the funny thing is that, like, here we are, this nuclear family in the suburbs of San Antonio, Texas with this not distant legacy of escape.

我的意思是，独裁政权仍在继续，而我却在家里看一部关于它的电影。

I mean, the dictatorship was was continuing on, and I'm seeing a movie about it in my house.

西西·斯派塞克的体型和我母亲差不多。

And Sissy Spacek is the size of my mother.

对。

Right.

因为这

Because the

《失踪》的年龄和我母亲一样。

missing The age of my mother.

是的。

Yes.

是的。

Yes.

还有那部电影《失踪》，对吧，由科斯塔·格雷夫斯执导。

And the movie Missing, right, by Costa Graves.

是的。

Yes.

她不小心在宵禁后外出，生命陷入危险，而我 somehow 将这一切联系起来，意识到自己小时候把母亲置于那种境地，简直彻底崩溃了。

And her, you know, being out in the streets past curfew by accident and her life being in peril, and and me somehow putting all of that together and understanding that sort of placing my mother in that circumstance as a child and just, like, absolutely falling apart.

你当时多大？

How old are you?

电影上映时，我大概七岁左右吧。

I when the movie came out in I must have been, like, I don't know, maybe seven.

哇。

Wow.

嗯。

Yeah.

那是不同的时代。

It was a different time.

父母们让我们父母

Parents were letting us parents

父母们让我们看任何在电视上播放的内容。

were parents were letting us watch whatever was on TV.

但我说‘哇’，是因为你把这些拼凑在一起， somehow 理解到西西·贝塞克就是我妈妈。

But I'm saying wow about you piecing that together and somehow understanding Sissy Baysec is is my mom.

嗯。

Yeah.

有那种感觉。

Feeling that way.

有那种感觉。

Feeling that way.

在那一刻有那种感觉，我觉得必须停下来。

Feeling that way in that moment, and I it had to stop.

我彻底崩溃了。

I I I fell apart.

你真的开始哭了吗？

You you literally started crying?

哦，是的。

Oh, yeah.

我开始……我是说，就像，你知道的，我觉得某种近乎嚎啕大哭的东西。

I started I I I mean, was like, you know, I think something, you know, bordering on on howling.

我当时是，我那时是，我那时是，你有没有试着跟你妈妈谈过这件事？

I was I was I was I was so you ever try to talk to your mom about it?

不知道。

Don't know.

我从来没有机会像现在跟你谈这样，跟我妈妈谈过这件事。

I never got a chance to talk to my mom about it the way I'm talking to you about it.

你知道吗？

You know?

不幸的是，我在想她是否理解了。

Unfortunately, I wonder if if she understood.

但没错。

But yeah.

我想简单回答的话，没有。

I guess just to to answer it simply, no.

不太算。

Not really.

当你说到你在怀疑她是否理解时，你指的是什么？

When you say you wonder if she understood, what do you mean?

她是否理解我是个担心她的儿子，你知道的，我一直在感受那种氛围，却不知道该如何处理它。

If she understood that I was kind of a son who was scared for her, you know, and kind of absorbing the context but not really knowing how to process the context.

电影在你生命中一直如此重要。

Movies have been so important to you in your life.

一切。

Everything.

是的。

Yeah.

它们让你理解这个世界。

They allow you to understand the world.

是的。

Yeah.

是的。

Yeah.

而现在你正在为其他人做同样的事。

And now you're doing that for other people.

你有没有这样想过？

Do you ever think about it like that?

我深深感激自己在做着热爱的事情，和我一起做这件事的人们，以及始终能参与其中的体验，你知道的，无论它是否受到欢迎。

I feel profound gratitude to be doing something that I love to do and and the people that I get to do it with and being sort of always a part of an experience, you know, whether it's well received or not.

但总是，每个人都在全身心地投入，非常在乎能否做好这件事。

But always, like, everyone involved is putting their entire selves and bodies into, you know, and and and and cares so much about about making it.

这非常有凝聚力。

And, it's very bonding.

这非常有趣，除此之外我什么都不知道。

It's very fun, and I don't know anything else.

哦，佩德罗。

Oh, Pedro.

这真是太棒了。

This has been great.

谢谢你，塔尼娅。

Thank you, Tanya.

非常感谢你邀请我。

Thank you so much for having me.

我无法形容，这简直是我人生中一个让我掐自己一下的时刻。

I can't tell you this is part of my little pinch me moment.

我在开始之前就告诉过你，自从我十几岁起，就一直通过父母收听NPR，整个成年生涯，我都在长期收听《新鲜空气》节目。

I told you before we started, I've been listening to NPR through my parents since I was a teenager, and my entire adult life, I've been listening to Fresh Air forever.

能坐在这里和你交谈，真的非常特别。

And getting to sit here with you is is very special.

佩德罗·帕斯卡主演了《最后生还者》。

Pedro Pascal stars in The Last of Us.

他最近的电影包括《神奇四侠》、《第一步》、《埃丁顿》和塞琳·宋的《物质主义者》。

His recent films are the fantastic four, First Steps, Eddington, and Celine Song's Materialists.

《新鲜空气》周末版由特蕾莎·马登制作。

Fresh Air weekend is produced by Theresa Madden.

《新鲜空气》的执行制片人是丹尼·米勒。

Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller.

我们的制作总监是萨姆·布里格。

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger.

我们的技术总监兼工程师是奥德丽·本瑟姆。

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

我们的采访和评论由菲莉丝·迈尔斯、罗伯塔·舒罗克、安妮·玛丽·巴尔多纳多、劳伦·克林泽尔、莫妮克·纳扎雷特、西娅·查隆纳、苏珊·纳昆迪、安娜·鲍曼和尼科·冈萨雷斯·惠斯勒制作和编辑。

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krinzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Nakundi, Anna Baumann, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler.

与特里·格罗斯一起，我是托尼亚·莫斯利。

With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Moseley.

NPR及以下信息的支持来自亚尔和帕梅拉·莫恩，感谢每天让公共广播变得伟大的人们，以及那些聆听的人。

Support for NPR and the following message come from Yarl and Pamela Mohn, thanking the people who make public radio great every day and also those who listen.