精选：德洛伊·林多 / 泰亚里·琼斯谈《Kin》

这些话是恩里克自己说的。

The words are spoken by Enrique himself.

他在整部小说中以一位带着家人穿越美国西南部公路旅行的作家身份出现。

He appears throughout the novel as a writer traveling on a road trip through the Southwest with his family.

他们造访了那些讲述阿帕奇族为生存而抗争的地方。

They're visiting sites that tell the story of the Apache fight for survival.

这种像普洛斯彼罗般的开篇，给读者发出了明确的预警：这部史诗般的小说将极具挑战性，有时夸张，有时又充满魔幻色彩。

That Prospero like opening gives readers fair warning about how defiantly challenging, occasionally overblown, and at times magical this epic novel is going to be.

在像E.

In the self conscious hallucinatory tradition of historical novelists like E.

L.

L.

德鲁罗和唐·德里罗这样的历史小说家所代表的自我意识式幻觉传统中，恩里克不断刻意提醒我们，这个内容繁复的过去故事，既是他的重建，也是他的建构。

Doctorow and Don Delillo, Enrique keeps intrusively reminding us that this overpacked tale of the past is something he's constructing as much as resurrecting.

和他的前辈们一样，恩里克信奉一种对历史的偏执解读。

And like his predecessors, Enrique subscribes to a paranoid reading of history.

正如德里罗在关于肯尼迪遇刺的小说《利布拉》中所写的角色所说，历史就是由这些他们不愿告诉我们的事情构成的。

As a character in Libra, Delillo's novel about the Kennedy assassination says, this is what history consists of.

它就是那些他们对我们隐瞒之事的总和。

It is the sum total of the things they aren't telling us.

关于西部是如何被征服的，官方历史隐瞒了太多内容，而恩里克在这里拼命地填补这些沉默。

There's so much that official history hasn't told us about how the West was won that Enrique here works furiously to fill in some of the silences.

这部小说最引人入胜、尽管也最残酷的情节，围绕着一位名叫卡米拉的年轻墨西哥女性展开。

The novel's most engrossing, if brutal, storyline follows a young Mexican woman named Camila.

我们第一次见到她时，她正从一场阿帕奇袭击中逃出，那场袭击杀光了她年迈丈夫牧场上的所有人。

We first see her running into the prairie after an Apache raid wipes out everyone else living on her elderly husband's ranch.

为了让你感受一下恩里克文字的即时性和画面感，这里是他描写阿帕奇人追上卡米拉的那一刻。

To give you a sense of how immediate and visual Enrique's writing can be, here's the moment when the Apache catch up with Camila.

她没有回头，但却清楚地听到一群马脱离了奔逃的牛群，转向了她。

She didn't look back, but she clearly heard a group of horses breaking away from the herd of running cattle and swerving toward her.

当马蹄扬起的尘土开始刺痛她的眼睛时，她扑倒在地，蜷缩成一团，希望被马蹄踩死。

When the dust raised by the pounding of the horse's hooves began to sting her eyes, she threw herself on the ground and curled into a ball hoping to be trampled to death.

接着，她被拽着发辫拉起，脖子扭曲，双腿踢蹬，棕色的印花衬裙在风中飘扬。

Then she was yanked up by her braids, her neck wrenched, her legs kicking, her brown underskirts of flower in the wind.

卡米拉的被绑架引发了一个第二叙事，讲述了一支由墨西哥共和国少校召集的杂牌搜寻队。

Camila's abduction spurs a second narrative featuring a ragtag search party assembled under a lieutenant colonel of the Mexican Republic.

搜寻者们骑马深入曾经被称为阿帕契亚的广袤土地。

The searchers ride far into the vast territory that was once known as Apacharia.

恩里克告诉我们，这个曾经是各个阿帕契部落古老家园的地方，在我们眼前消失了，就像磁带或白炽灯泡一样。如今，在索诺拉、奇瓦瓦、亚利桑那和新墨西哥交界之处，曾是一片亚特兰蒂斯，一个中间地带，墨西哥人和盎格鲁人像两个闭着眼睛、背对背的孩子，而阿帕契人则在他们双腿之间来回穿梭，不知该往何处去——陌生人如潮水般涌现，填满了他们的土地。

Enrique tells us this ancient homeland of the various Apache tribes vanished before our eyes, like cassette tapes or incandescent light bulbs Where Sonora, Chihuahua, Arizona, and New Mexico meet today was an Atlantis, an in between country, and straddling it were the Mexicans and the gringos, like two children eyes shut, their backs to each other, while the Apache is scuttled back and forth between their legs, not sure where to go with strangers bubbling up everywhere, filling their lands.

阿帕契人的末日始于1886年3月，当时他们的伟大领袖兼萨满格雷罗诺向美军投降，身边仅剩一小群战士。

The endgame for the Apache began in March 1886 when their great leader and shaman, Geronimo, surrendered with a small band of warriors to the US army.

根据那一时刻的官方记录，格雷罗诺说：‘从前，我行动如风。’

According to the official transcript of that moment, Geronimo said, once I moved like the wind.

现在，我向你们投降，仅此而已。

Now I surrender to you, and that is all.

恩里克的小说以格雷罗诺这番富有诗意的话语命名，但当它聚焦于他的投降以及作为战俘和奇观的余生时，便失去了一些活力。

Enrique's novel, which takes its title from Geronimo's eloquent words, loses some vitality when it focuses on the story of his surrender and afterlife as a prisoner of war and a curiosity.

例如，杰罗尼莫曾出现在1904年圣路易斯的世界博览会上，并在次年参加了西奥多·罗斯福的就职游行。

Geronimo appeared, for instance, at the nineteen o four World's Fair in Saint Louis and rode in Teddy Roosevelt's inaugural parade the year after.

考虑到恩里克对阿帕契亚地区怀有如此不带感伤的钦佩之情，或许讲述杰罗尼莫陨落的故事更像是一种作家的职责，而非出于意愿。

Given that Enrique writes with such unsentimental admiration about Apacheria, perhaps recounting the story of Geronimo's fall felt more like a writerly duty than a desire.

《我现在投降》被描述为一部修正主义或另类西部片，确实如此。

Now I Surrender has been described as a revisionist or alternative western, which it is.

但鉴于其宏大的规模，我认为称之为一部可扩展的西部片或许更为贴切。

But given its scope, I think it might be more apt to call it an expandable western.

在这场征服与灭绝的史诗中，每个人都有容身之处。

There's room for everyone in this epic of conquest and eradication.

原住民、墨西哥人、盎格鲁裔美国人、前奴隶、移民，还有一位孤身的作家，竭力在这一切落幕前讲述他们的故事。

Native Americans, Mexicans, gringos, formerly enslaved people, immigrants, and one lone writer gamely trying to tell their stories before the curtain comes down on the whole enterprise.

莫琳·科里根是乔治城大学的文学教授。

Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University.

她评论了阿尔瓦罗·恩里克的《我现在投降》。

She reviewed Alvaro Enrique's now I surrender.

接下来，小说家泰亚里·琼斯将谈论她的新书《Kin》，这本书讲述了一段终生的友谊和我们选择的家庭。

Coming up, novelist Tayari Jones talks about her new book Kin, about a lifelong friendship and our chosen family.

这是新鲜空气周末。

This is fresh air weekend.

现在是奥斯卡季，我们已经看过了所有提名影片，所以你不用看。

It's Oscar season, and we watched the nominated movies, so you don't have to.

我们将对好莱坞最重要的夜晚做出一些大胆预测，或许还能帮你赢得奥斯卡彩池奖金。

We are making some bold predictions for Hollywood's biggest night, and we may help you win your Oscars pool.

请在NPR应用或你收听播客的任何平台收听流行文化欢乐时光。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

我的嘉宾是小说家泰亚里·琼斯。

My guest is novelist Tayari Jones.

她二十多年前就出版了第一本小说，但真正让她登上全国视野的是她的第四部作品《美国婚姻》。

She wrote her first novel more than two decades ago, but it was her fourth, an American marriage that put her into the national spotlight.

2018年这本书出版时，奥普拉将其选入她的读书俱乐部，巴拉克·奥巴马也将其列入了他的阅读清单。

When it came out in 2018, Oprah chose it for her book club, and Barack Obama put it on his reading list.

这本书后来赢得了女性小说奖，并在十多个国家出版，被誉为对爱与正义的富有同情心的描绘。

It went on to win the women's prize for fiction and has been published in more than a dozen countries, praised as a compassionate portrait of love and justice.

无论如何，塔亚里·琼斯已经功成名就，直到她遇到瓶颈，花了数年时间创作一部新作品，却始终无法成型。

By any measure, Tayari Jones had arrived until she hit a wall, spending years on a new project that just wouldn't come together.

在此期间，她被诊断出患有格雷夫斯病，心率过高，差点中风。

During that time, she was diagnosed with Graves' disease, and her heart rate was so high she nearly had a stroke.

即使视力受损，她仍戴上眼罩，继续写作。

Even as her vision suffered though, she put an eye patch on and kept writing.

最终诞生的作品是《Kin》，这是她最新的一部小说，背景设定在20世纪50年代的路易斯安那州和亚特兰大。

And what came out on the other side is Kin, her latest novel set in nineteen fifties Louisiana and Atlanta.

故事讲述两个女孩——弗妮斯和安妮，她们从小住在隔壁，却都没有母亲。

It's about two girls, Vernice and Annie, who grow up next door to each other without their mothers.

其中一个母亲被谋杀。

One mother was murdered.

另一个母亲则 simply 离开了。

The other simply left.

共同的创伤将她们联系在一起，但她们的生活却走向了不同的方向。

That shared wound binds them, but their lives take them in different directions.

一个去了斯贝尔曼学院，进入了亚特兰大的黑人精英圈，另一个则穿越吉姆·克劳时代的南方，寻找抛弃她的母亲。

One to Spelman College and Atlanta's black elite, and the other on a journey through the Jim Crow South in search of the mother who had abandoned her.

仅用一个词作为书名，琼斯提出了贯穿整部小说的核心问题。

With just one word for a title, Jones asks the question the entire novel is built around.

你的亲人是谁？

Who is your kin?

是血缘关系，还是某种更深刻的东西？

Is it blood or something more profound?

泰亚里·琼斯，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。

Tayari Jones, welcome to Fresh Air.

谢谢您邀请我。

Thank you for having me.

你知道，我在介绍中提到，这本书是在你人生一段艰难时期之后创作的。

You know, I mentioned in my introduction that this book came after a difficult period in your life.

这本书也诞生于一段美国婚姻之后，以及所有荣誉之后。

It also came after an American marriage, after all of the accolades.

你曾试图写点什么。

You tried to write something.

但始终无法成形，后来你病倒了，然后就写出了这个故事。

It just didn't come together, and then you got sick, and then you wrote this story.

究竟是这个关于两位女性的故事的什么特质，让它在其他一切尝试都失败时脱颖而出？

And what was it about this particular story of two women that broke through when nothing else really could?

你知道，这个问题对我来说依然相当神秘，因为我以前从未有过小说如此自然地找上门来。

You know, that question remains rather mysterious for me because I've never before had a novel kind of come to me.

你知道，你常听其他作家说，哦，它是在梦里出现的，或者我只是个媒介。

You know, you hear all these other writers saying, oh, you know, it came to me in a dream or I'm just a vessel.

我从来不是那种‘只是媒介’型的作家。

I was never the just a vessel type of writer.

我也不是那种控制欲很强的作家。

I'm not a controlling writer.

我不确定这本书的结局，但我通常知道这本书讲的是什么。

Like, I don't know the end of the book, but I do tend to know what the book is about.

所以想象一下，我受雇写一部关于新南方二月时期绅士化现象的现代小说。

So just imagine, I'm contracted to write a modern novel about gentrification, you know, in the New South in the February.

但这个故事就是无法成型。

But the story wasn't coming together.

我该怎么说呢？

Well, how can I put it?

你有没有认识过玩爵士乐的人，他们说，今晚乐队真的很带感，或者乐队 Yeah。

It's like have you ever known anyone that plays in a jazz band and they say, oh, the band was really swinging tonight or the band Yeah.

没带起来吗？

Wasn't swinging?

这部小说就是没带起来。

The the novel was not swinging.

明白吗？

Okay?

就是没有。

It just was not.

你知道埃拉·菲茨杰拉德他们是怎么说的。

And you know what Ella Fitzgerald and them told us about that.

那到底是什么？

If it you know, what is it?

如果没有那种摇摆感，那就什么都没有。

It ain't got a thing if it ain't got that swing.

那种摇摆感。

That swing.

对吧？

Right?

就是没有。

It was not.

是的。

Yes.

我只是觉得，我一直在用锤子、钉子和锯子，制造出很大的噪音，而本该创作音乐的。

It just I felt like I was using hammers and nails and saws, and I was making a racket when I should have been making music.

我最终拿出一张纸，决定像小时候那样用铅笔写字，只是为了娱乐和安慰自己。

And I finally just pulled out a piece of paper and just decided to write with a pencil like I did when I was a child and just write to kind of entertain and comfort myself.

就像你说的，我那时生病了。

Like you said, I had been ill.

你知道的，我们刚经历过疫情。

Things you know, we're just after the pandemic.

我们失去了很多人。

We had lost people.

当时发生了太多事，我只是开始写作，并不是为了签约，也不是想对新南方的士绅化做出什么社会评论。

Just it was just a lot going on, and I just started to write not with an eye toward a contract or with what social statement I wanted to make about gentrification in the New South.

我只是开始写作，想看看自己脑海中有什么，这个时刻会有谁来到我身边。

I just started to write to see what was there in my mind, who could come to me during this moment.

我遇见了安妮和伯尼斯，但当我发现她们生活在20世纪50年代时，我想，显然，显然，显然，她们就是我角色的父母，因为我不是一位历史小说家。

And I met Annie and Bernice, But when I saw that they were living in the nineteen fifties, I thought, well, clearly, clearly, clearly, these are the parents of my characters because I am not a historical novelist.

对。

Right.

不过慢一点，因为你一再明确表示，而且你的所有作品都证实了，你是一位当代小说家。

Slow down here though because you you have solidly said over and over, and all your writing shows to be true, that you are a contemporary novelist.

所以，回到二十世纪五十年代，同时聚焦于友谊和姐妹情谊，这到底是怎么发生的？

So, I mean, to go back to the nineteen fifties and to also focus on friendship and sisterhood, what happened?

这听起来有点神秘，但就是突然出现了。

Like, this all sounds kind of mystical, but, like, it just came

来到你身边。

to you.

我觉得，你知道，我感觉自己好像成了马蒂·麦克弗莱，不知道是不是我显老了。

I felt like, you know, I felt like I was in I don't know if I'm showing my age, but I felt like Marty McFry.

就像我回到了未来。

Like, I went back to the future.

我回到了过去，从创作的角度环顾四周，心想：为什么大家都穿成这样？

I went to the past, and I I felt like creatively, was looking around being like, why is everyone dressed like this?

我怎么了？

What has happened to me?

但我认为我终于知道它来自哪里了。

But I think I know where it came from finally.

回顾过去，我想我知道了。

In hindsight, I think I know.

你知道，八年前我搬回了亚特兰大的家，我搬回去是因为我想以成人的身份去了解我的父母。

You know, I moved back home to Atlanta eight years ago, and I moved back home to Atlanta because I wanted an opportunity to get to know my parents as an adult.

我想让我们能像成年人一样交谈。

I wanted us to talk as, you know, as adults.

就像书里艾琳阿姨对尼西说的，我们要坐下来，像两个成熟的女性一样聊聊。

Like in the book when aunt Irene says to Nisi, you know, we're gonna sit down and talk like two grown women.

我想，那就是我的幻想——我回家后能和长辈们进行这样的对话。

That, I think, was my fantasy that I was gonna come home and have these kinds of conversations with my elders.

但对我来说，很明显这并不是他们的幻想，不过我认为我的想象力把我带回了我母亲那个时代。

But it has become clear to me that that is not their fantasy, but I think that my imagination took me back to my mother's era.

我母亲是一名儿童民权活动家。

My mother was a child civil rights activist.

所以，这就是她成长起来的世界。

So this is the world from which she sprung.

我认为我父亲来自路易斯安那州的一个小镇。

And I think and my dad is from a small town in Louisiana.

所以，你知道人们常说的‘要站在对方的角度理解他们’吗？

So I think you know how they say meet people where they are?

我认为，这不是我站在父母现在的立场上理解他们，而是站在了他们过去的立场上。

I think this was me not meeting my parents where they are, but meeting them where they were.

塔亚里，我想和你聊聊你的第一本书《离开亚特兰大》。

Tayari, I wanna talk to you a little bit about your first book, Leaving Atlanta.

你是什么时候决定要写这部小说的？

When did you know this was the first novel that you were gonna write?

其实，当我还太年轻、写不了的时候，我就已经知道了。

I actually knew it when I was too young to write it.

当我大约18岁的时候，我会去照看一个小男孩，接他从公交站，然后辅导他数学。

When I was about 18 years old, I would babysit a little boy, and I'd pick him up from the bus stop and take him to tutor him in math.

有一次，我去接他时发现他不在，这让我经历了现在称之为恐慌发作的症状，但那时我还没有这个词。

And once, I went to pick him up, and he was not there, and it caused me what I now would call a panic attack, but I didn't have that language.

我找不到他。

I couldn't find him.

我在到处找他。

I was looking for him.

我回到宿舍，请求每个人帮我找他。

I went back to my dormitory, and I asked everyone to help me.

我说，他不在那儿。

I said, he's not there.

你能帮我吗？

Can you help me?

来帮我找他的那些年轻女孩都来自亚特兰大，但我当时以为这不过是家乡的情结。

And the the young women who came to help me look for him were all from Atlanta, but I thought this was just kind of hometown allegiance.

但我现在明白了，她们也成长在亚特兰大儿童谋杀案的阴影下。

But I now understood that they also had grown up during the Atlanta child murders.

因此，这个小男孩失踪五到十分钟，在我们看来就是一场紧急事件。

So this little boy being unaccounted for for five, ten minutes registered to us as an emergency.

那些来自纽约、费城的女孩们说，哦，他可能只是去Popeyes买鸡肉了。

The, you know, the the girls from from New York, from Philly, they said, oh, he's probably just, you know, at Popeyes getting some chicken.

顺便说一句，他确实就在那里。

And by the way, that is exactly where he was.

但我无法忍受不知道他去了哪里，于是我对自己说，总有一天，我要写一本书来讲述这件事。

But I could not I could not bear not knowing where he was, and I said to myself, one day, I should write a book about this.

对于那些不了解亚特兰大儿童谋杀案的人，1979年至1981年间，亚特兰大地区至少有28名非裔美国儿童、青少年和成年人被一名男子谋杀，此人后来被逮捕并被定罪，他就是韦恩·威廉姆斯。

And for those who aren't familiar with the Atlanta child murders, from 1979 to 1981, there were at least 28 black American children and adolescents and adults in the Atlanta area who were murdered by a man who was later arrested and convicted of many of the murders, Wayne Williams.

亚特兰大儿童谋杀案最严重的时期，实际上是在你八九岁到十十一岁之间？

The worst of the Atlanta child murders actually happened from the time period when you were around eight or nine till about 10 or 11?

是的。

Yes.

被杀害的两个孩子都是我小学的学生。

Two of the kids who were killed were students at my elementary school.

两个男孩，性格截然不同。

Two boys who could not have been more different.

一个非常安静，上了资优班；另一个，在我看来，他似乎比我们大很多，还会骑轻便摩托车。

One was very quiet and in the gifted class, and the other was well, to me, he seemed like he was so much older than us, and he could he rode a moped.

但当我做研究时，我发现他只有13岁。

But when I did my research, I saw he was only 13.

当我看到报纸剪报里的他的照片时，他看起来像个小孩子。

He looked like such a baby when I looked at his pictures, you know, in newspaper clippings.

但当我九岁或十岁的时候，他在我眼里简直像个成年人，就在我们班上。

But when I was, like, nine or 10, he was this almost like this adult person that was in our class.

这让我感到害怕，因为我觉得，如果这个看似无所不能的人都会受害，那我们这些普通孩子又会怎样呢？

And it frightened me because I felt like, oh, if this invincible person is vulnerable, then what's gonna happen to to us, just regular kids?

人们经常问你，是否觉得这段经历夺走了你的童年，而你总是说没有。

People ask you all the time if you believe that that experience kind of like stole your childhood, and you always say no.

但我想知道，当你十岁的时候，既担心着像课间休息这类十岁孩子该操心的有趣事情，又担心自己可能被杀害，这该怎么形容呢？

But I wonder what what do you call it then when you're 10 years old and you're worried about kids stuff like recess and all the fun things that you do as a 10 year old, but you're also worried that you might get murdered.

我认为，世界上很多年轻人、很多孩子都在担心自己会不会被杀害，但他们依然是孩子。

I think that a lot of young people a lot of children all over the world worry about if they're going to be murdered, but they're still children.

当人们说，哦，你一定没有童年的时候，

To say when people say, oh, you must not have had a childhood.

童年是我们人类体验中一个根本的部分。

Childhood is a fundamental part of our human experience.

所以这简直就像有人问我：哦，你不是人类吗？

So that's almost like someone asking me, oh, are you not a human being?

你不需要完美的环境才能成为人。

You do not need ideal circumstances to be human.

所以，是的，我曾经是个孩子。

So, yes, I was a child.

我记得那时的一个关键记忆是，大约十岁的时候，我决定该戴胸罩了。

I remember one of my key memories from that time is that when I was about 10 years old, I decided that I should have a training bra.

其他人有戴。

Some other people had them.

我说服了我妈妈带我去西尔斯百货。

And I convinced my mother to take me to Sears and Roebuck.

我们去了西尔斯百货。

We Sears and Roebuck.

我们打算买一件训练胸衣。

We were gonna get this training bra.

那位女士用卷尺给我量了尺寸，然后对着我妈妈 smirk，说我要穿28AAA码，其实就是不用穿胸衣。

And the lady measured me with the measuring tape and smirked at my mother and said, I needed a size twenty eight triple a, which is essentially no brassiere at all.

是的。

Yes.

我知道她们在嘲笑我。

And I knew they were mocking me.

我不懂尺码，但我明白她们在嘲笑我，于是我就气呼呼地走开了。

I didn't understand the sizing, but I knew they were mocking me, and I kinda flounced away.

而且你知道，在那些百货商店里，墙上会摆满他们想卖的电视机。

And, you know, in those department stores, they would have all the televisions on the wall that they're trying to sell.

它们全都调到同一个频道。

They all turned to the same channel.

我一看，看到了一张脸，那是我小学时的同学。

And I looked, and I saw the face of a boy I had gone to to that was in my elementary school.

所以对我来说，这两件事——这件关于28三A胸罩的幼稚经历，还有我同学被杀害的事——对我来说是一回事，而我作为一个孩子做出了反应。

And so for me, those two things, this very childish experience of this 28 triple a bra and this murder of, you know, of of a classmate, they are the same thing to me, and I responded to it as a child.

所以我做的每一件事，都是以孩子的方式做的，因为我当时还是个孩子。

So everything I did, I did in a childish way because I was a child.

我提到过，塔亚里，你的父母在你出生前都是民权工作者。

I mentioned, Tayari that your parents were both, civil rights workers before you were born.

你母亲有一个非常精彩的故事。

Your mother has this amazing story.

她15岁时就帮助组织了俄克拉荷马城的静坐抗议，而你父亲则因为在路易斯安那州示威而被大学开除。

She was 15 when she helped organize sit ins in in Oklahoma City, and your father was expelled from college in Louisiana for demonstrating.

在那样的家庭中长大意味着什么？

What did what did it mean to grow up in a house like that?

我的意思是，我从小就被灌输一种观念：无论你选择做什么，都必须服务于种族平等事业。

I mean, I grew up with an expectation that whatever one chose to do with her life, it needed to be in the service of, like, race work.

我知道，妈妈十几岁时就参与了静坐抗议，爸爸也被开除了学籍。

I knew that, you know, mommy had participated in the sit ins when she was just a teenager, and daddy had been expelled.

爸爸为了上大学付出了太多，他赌上了一切，结果因此受到了惩罚。

Daddy went through so much to go to college, and he put it all on the line and, you know, was punished for it.

此外，我在亚特兰大长大，那里所有人都生活在马丁·路德·金的阴影之下。

And, also, I grew up in Atlanta where we all live in the shadow of Martin Luther King.

我记得小时候，有一位老师常常这样看着我们。

I remember when I was a kid, I had a teacher who used to look at us.

比如说，如果你做了些无关紧要的事，比如没写作业或者仪容不整。

Like, let's say you did something trifling like, you know, didn't do your homework or didn't properly groom yourself.

她只会用一种悲伤而非愤怒的眼神看着你，然后说：这不是金博士为之牺牲的意义。

She would just look at you with sadness more more in sadness than in anger and say to you, that is not what doctor King died for.

所以你一直都知道，金博士是为你而死的，而你却在这里。

So you constantly knew that this was you know, doctor King had died for you, and here you are.

连涂个润肤露都做不到。

You can't even put on lotion.

所以有一种这样的

So there was that kind

感觉。

of sense.

你16岁就上了斯贝尔曼学院。

You went to Spelman at 16 years old.

你跳级了吗？

Did you skip grades?

是的。

I did.

是的。

I did.

我从小就跳了级。

I, I skipped grades very early.

我记得四岁的时候，上午在幼儿园，下午在一年级，美术老师会到这两个地方来看我。

I remember when I was four, I did half the day in the kindergarten, other half a day in the first grade, and the art teacher would come and see me in both spaces.

美术老师问我：‘你有个妹妹吗？’

And the art teacher said to me, oh, do you have a sister?

‘因为幼儿园里有个小女孩长得和你一模一样。’

Because there's a little girl in the kindergarten that looks just like you.

我说：‘是的，我有个妹妹。’

And I said, I do.

我们是双胞胎。

We're twins.

她问：‘那为什么你的双胞胎妹妹在幼儿园，而你却在一年级？’

And she said, oh, well, why is your twin sister in the kindergarten?

你上一年级，她却在幼儿园。

And you're in the first grade.

我说，她反应慢，但很敏感。

And I said, she's slow, but she's sensitive.

别多说什么。

Don't say anything.

塔亚里。

Tayari.

所以有位女士一直以为我是双胞胎之一，持续了一个半月，直到我的老师说：塔亚里不是双胞胎。

So I had this I had this lady thinking I was a set of twins for, like, a month and a half until my teacher said, Tayari is not a set of twins.

她是一个人。

She's one person.

我一直比同学年纪小，我必须说，我不建议用这种方式让孩子跳级，因为你实际上在鼓励孩子将自我认同建立在一件随着岁月流逝而越来越不重要的事情上。

So I was always younger than my classmates, and I have to say I do not recommend that people skip children in this way because you really encourage children to build their identity around something that becomes less significant with every passing day.

那时我四岁，他们六岁，他们比我大50%。

That moment, when I was four and they were six, they were 50% older than me.

现在我们都一样大了。

Now we're all the same age.

他们两岁，我55岁。

They're two years I'm 55.

他们57岁。

They're 57.

我们同龄。

We are the same age.

嗯，确实如此。

Well, that's true.

但我很好奇，16岁就上大学，尤其是斯佩尔曼学院，毕竟那是所女子学院，里面到底是什么样子？

But I wonder, going into college at 16 I mean, Spelman, of all places, because it was a women's college, what was it actually like in the inside?

1987年我进入斯佩尔曼学院时，那一年学院迎来了首位非裔美国女性校长，约翰内塔·B·科尔博士。

When I arrived at Spelman College in 1987, it was the year that Spelman College inaugurated our first black woman president, doctor Johnnetta B.

如果你见过她，就会知道她是我在生活中遇到过的最具气场的人。

Cole, who, if you've ever met her, is the most formidable person I have ever met.

她和我同时进入大学。

And she came into college when I came into college.

所以，我们在某种程度上是全新的。

So we were in a way new.

我们是一起入学的大一新生。

We were freshmen together.

她是我们的校长，那是她担任校长的第一年。

She was our you know, it was her first year as the president.

有一次我在校园里遇到她，她嗓门很大，对我说：‘塔亚里，写作进展如何？’

And she said to me, once I ran into her at crossing campus, she has this big voice, and she said, Tayari, how is the writing?

我当时没什么作品可以给她看，但我心想：下次见到她时，我一定要有东西可以展示。

And I didn't have any writing to show her, but I said, the next time I see her, I'm gonna have something to say.

我深受感动，因为她记得我曾提到想当作家，她就像在督促我实现这个目标。

And I was so moved that she remembered that I had mentioned that I wanted to be a writer, and she like, it's like she held me to that.

我们上学期间，全国最杰出的黑人女性都曾来到斯贝尔曼学院。

And all of the most exciting black women in the country came to Spelman when we were there.

你知道吗？

You know?

所以我有机会和托妮·莫里森一起吃早餐，而她并不知道要和我共进早餐，对此她并不怎么兴奋。

So I was able to have, breakfast with Toni Morrison, who had not been told she was having breakfast with me, and she wasn't that excited about it.

但我足够兴奋，替我们俩都兴奋了。

But I was excited enough for both of us.

你和托妮·莫里森，就你们两个人？

You and Toni Morrison, just the two of you?

是的。

Mhmm.

她对此并不开心。

And she was not happy about it.

他们没有告诉她，有个非常热情的18岁女孩要来吃早餐，但当时人们还经常在公共场合吸烟。

They did not tell her that a very eager 18 year old was coming for breakfast, but there and this was back to when people used to smoke in public.

她正在抽一支香烟，我对她说：‘夫人，您知道今天是美国大规模戒烟日吗？’

And she was smoking a cigarette, and I said to her, ma'am, did you know that today is the great American smoke out?

你还记得有那么一天，人们被要求不要吸烟吗？

Remember there was that day when people weren't supposed to smoke?

是的。

Yes.

她吸了一口那支香烟，缓缓地吐出烟雾，说：‘不，女士。’

And she inhaled on that cigarette and kinda languidly exhaled that smoke and said, no, ma'am.

我并不知道。

I was not aware.

听你讲这个故事，我的想法是：

Well, here's my thought in hearing you tell this story.

你上大学时就知道自己想写作。

You went to college knowing that you wanted to write.

但当你接触到这些文学巨匠时，你有没有觉得自己也会成为其中之一？

But as you're encountering these legends, did you see yourself as one?

在他们中间，你是如何看待自己的？

How were you thinking about yourself in the midst of all of them?

好吧，我告诉你，我看到课程公告上有一门创意写作课，当时我根本不知道原来还可以选写作课。

Well, I will tell you, I took a writing creative I saw a creative writing class listed in the, you know, the bulletin for what courses were coming up, and I did not know that people could take a class in writing.

我以为你知道，就像你生活中有些人会唱歌一样？

I thought you know how, like, you know some people in your life who can sing?

我以为写作也是这样的。

I thought writing was like that.

就像有些人会唱歌，有些人会写作，但我根本不知道写作还能在学校里选课。

Like, some people can sing, some people can write, but I didn't know that you could take it in school.

于是我决定要选这门创意写作课。

And so I decided I was gonna take this creative writing class.

但当时大一学生是不允许选这门课的。

But it was not freshmen were not allowed to take the class.

说实话，我觉得这是歧视。

And, frankly, I thought this was discrimination.

我真的很想上这门课，而那是在八十年代，那时候还没有电脑。

And I really wanted to take the class, and this was in the eighties when there were no computers.

如果你想选一门课，根本不会有允许你选的流程。

If you wanted to take a class, you didn't have the permission to take.

你只需要导师的签名即可。

You just needed your adviser's signature.

当时全靠自觉，我见过导师的签名，那根本算不上什么签名。

And it was a little honor system me, and I had seen my adviser's signature, and it wasn't much of a signature.

那更像是一团涂鸦。

It was more of a squiggle.

抱歉。

Sorry.

是的。

Yeah.

我当时想，假设一下，也许我可以模仿这个涂鸦，这或许算是一种公民抗命，因为我确实觉得不让我选这门课是不对的。

And I was thinking, like, let's just say, hypothetically, maybe I could replicate this squiggle and maybe that could be a kind of civil disobedience because I did think it was wrong that I was not allowed to take the class.

我仔细考虑过，实在太想选这门课了，于是我可能真的画了个涂鸦。

And I thought it over, and I just wanted it so bad, and and I may have squiggled.

我成功选上了这门课，并在那里认识了佩尔·克莱格。

And I took the class, and there I met Pearl Clegg.

我认识了一位作家，她是我的老师。

I met a writer, and she was my teacher.

我坐在最前排，全神贯注地听她所说的每一句话。

And I sat right there in the front, and I hung on her every word.

有一天，她问我：最近你在想些什么？

And one day she said to me, what are you thinking about these days?

我正准备告诉她，她却对我说：不。

And I got ready to tell her, and she said to me, no.

别告诉我。

Don't tell me.

把它写下来。

Write it down.

就这样，她成了我的第一位观众。

And with that, she became my first audience.

她认真对待我，于是我开始认真对待自己。

And she took me seriously, and so I took myself seriously.

就在那时，我觉得自己真正成了一个作家，因为我在心里把自己当成了作家，而且我有了读者。

And that is when I feel like I became a writer because I became one in my own head, and I had an audience.

泰亚里·琼斯，非常感谢你写出这本书。

Tayari Jones, thank you so much for this book.

这本书对我而言像一颗炸弹，感谢你进行这场对话。

It's been a bomb for me, and I thank you for this conversation.

我非常喜欢。

I enjoyed it.

非常感谢你。

Thank you so much.

泰亚里·琼斯的新书名为《Kin》。

Tayari Jones' new book is called Kin.

《Fresh Air》周末节目由特蕾莎·马登制作。

Fresh Air weekend is produced by Theresa Madden.

《Fresh Air》的执行制片人是萨姆·布里格。

Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.

我们的技术总监和工程师是奥德丽·本瑟姆。

Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

我们的访谈和评论由菲利斯·迈尔斯、罗伯塔·舒洛克、安妮·玛丽·巴尔多纳多、劳伦·克林泽尔、莫妮克·纳扎雷特、西娅·查隆纳、苏珊·亚昆迪、安娜·鲍曼和尼科·冈萨雷斯·惠斯勒制作和编辑。

Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krinzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi, Anna Baumann, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler.

我们的数字媒体制作人是莫莉·C。

Our digital media producer is Molly C.

B。

B.

内斯珀。

Nesper.

与特里·格罗斯一起，我是托尼娅·莫斯利。

With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.

现在是奥斯卡季，我们已经看过了所有提名影片，省得你看了。

It's Oscar season, and we watched the nominated movies so you don't have to.

我们对好莱坞最重要的夜晚做出了一些大胆预测，或许还能帮你赢得奥斯卡彩池。

We are making some bold predictions for Hollywood's biggest night, and we may help you win your Oscar pool.

在NPR应用中或您收听播客的任何平台收听流行文化欢乐时光。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.