精选集：裘德·洛 / 佩德罗·帕斯卡

嘿，我是NPR《Wildcard》的主持人瑞秋·马丁。在我多年的电台主持生涯中，沉默曾让我感到不安。那种等待回答前的停顿，因为你不知道麦克风另一端发生了什么。

Hey. It's Rachel Martin. I'm the host of Wildcard from NPR. For a lot of my years as a radio host, silence sort of made me nervous. That pause before an answer because you don't know what's going on on the other side of the mic.

但现在，我反而爱上了这种时刻。天啊。

But these days, I love it. Gosh.

哇哦，给我一分钟。

Woah. Give me a minute.

对，对，好好想想。请收听NPR独家播出的《Wildcard》播客。

Yeah. Yeah. Think. Listen to the wildcard podcast only from NPR.

这里是费城WHYY电台，《新鲜空气周末》节目。我是托妮娅·莫斯利。今天的主角是演员裘德·洛。他将谈及自己职业生涯中塑造的各类角色，以及如何希望人们能超越他的英俊外貌看到更多内涵。

From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is fresh air weekend. I'm Tonya Moseley. Today, actor Jude Law. He talks about the range of characters he's brought to life throughout his career and how he hopes people see more to him than his good looks.

但就在前几天，我在多伦多电影节上，至少有两三个采访都只关注我的长相。我看着他们心想：我是个52岁的老演员了，有着三十年的职业生涯，你们就只谈这个？

But just the other day, I was at the Toronto Film Festival, and in at least two or three of the interviews, that's all they wanted to talk about, my looks. And I kinda looked looked at him and thought, you know, I'm a 52 year old guy. I've got a thirty year career, and that's all you're talking about.

我们还将听到佩德罗·帕斯卡的分享。他既演过漫威超级英雄，也在《最后生还者》中饰演悲痛的走私客，还是《曼达洛人》中的赏金猎人。今年夏天，他主演了《神奇四侠：第一步》《爱丁顿》和《物质主义者》。乐评人肯·塔克还将分享他今秋最爱的音乐作品。更多内容尽在《新鲜空气周末》。

Also, we hear from Pedro Pascal. He's been a Marvel superhero, a grieving smuggler in The Last of Us, and a bounty hunter in The Mandalorian. This summer, he starred in the Fantastic Four, First Steps, Eddington, and The Materialists. And rock critic Ken Tucker shares some of his favorite music releases this fall. That's coming up on fresh air weekend.

许多每日短新闻播客只聚焦单一事件。但此刻，您或许需要了解更多。NPR的《Up First》节目，每天用不到15分钟为您带来全球三大头条新闻，因为在这个庞大而纷乱的世界里，没有任何单一事件能概括每个清晨发生的全部。即刻收听NPR的《Up First》播客。

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story. But right now, you probably need more. On Up First from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under fifteen minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big, crazy world of ours on any given morning. Morning. Listen now to the Up First podcast from NPR.

我是彼得·萨格尔。NPR绝大多数时候非常严肃。它几乎总是以应有的尊重对待新闻人物，通常为您带来真正重要议题的关键信息，并且几乎从不向名人询问他们一无所知的事情——除了偶尔例外。欢迎加入这场美妙的例外。

I'm Peter Sagel. NPR is very serious, mostly. It treats newsmakers with all due respect almost all the time. It brings you the most important information about the issues that really matter, usually, and it never asks famous people about things they don't know anything about except once in a while. Join us for the great exception.

请收听NPR新闻竞猜节目《Wait Wait Don't Tell Me》。

Listen to Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, the news quiz from NPR.

国会结束夏季休会重返工作，议程表上事务繁多。立法者们将面临什么？他们的工作对您有何影响？NPR政治播客每个工作日为您解析华盛顿的内部运作。通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听NPR政治播客。

Congress is back from its summer recess with a lot on its agenda. What's all in store for lawmakers, and what does their work mean for you? Every weekday, the NPR politics podcast unpacks Washington's inner workings. Listen to the NPR politics podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

这里是《周末新鲜空气》。我是托尼亚·莫斯利，今天的首位嘉宾是获奖演员裘德·洛。在其新Netflix剧集《黑兔》中，他饰演纽约顶级餐厅老板——一个魅力非凡、事业成功却深陷道德困境的角色。他的判断力蒙上阴影，忠诚面临分裂。

This is fresh air weekend. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my first guest today is award winning actor Jude Law. In his new Netflix series, Black Rabbit, he plays the owner of one of New York's most exclusive restaurants, a man who is magnetic and successful, but also deeply compromised. His judgment clouded. His loyalty is divided.

他饰演的角色名为杰克·弗里德金。当由杰森·贝特曼饰演的疏远兄弟带着危险债务归来时，他苦心经营的世界开始分崩离析。以下是杰克首次登场时对餐厅的描述，紧张氛围预示着即将到来的风暴。

His name is Jake Friedkin. And when his estranged brother played by Jason Bateman returns with dangerous debts, the world he's built begins to fall apart. Here's how we first meet Jake describing his restaurant with a tense foreshadowing of what's to come.

我想简短声明：不认识我的人，请立刻离开。

I wanna say something quick. For those of you who don't know who I am, get the out.

不，我是杰克。很好。对。没错。

No. I'm Jake. Good. Yeah. Yeah.

我是这儿的老板。好吧。行吧。哇哦。

I own the place. Alright. Alright. Wow.

黑兔餐厅就是为这类派对而生的。当初我们创建这个地方时，就从未想过让它只是一家餐厅。我们想为家人、朋友和同好打造一个家，一个你可以来喝杯酒、抽支烟、品尝纽约最佳汉堡的所在。

This is the kind of party Black Rabbit was built for. Yeah. When we set out to create this place, we never wanted it to be just a restaurant. We wanted to build a home for our family, our friends, our people. A place you could come for a drink, a smoke, for the best burger in New York.

你会买疫苗吗？一个地方

Will you buy a vaccine? A place

夜晚可以肆意挥洒的所在。

where the night could go anyway.

裘德·洛不仅是主演，更是执行制片人，塑造着这部系列剧对纽约夜生活的愿景——一个既光鲜又险恶的世界。过去三十年间，他游刃有余地穿梭于独立电影、好莱坞大片与伦敦纽约的舞台剧之间，曾两度获得奥斯卡提名，以在魅力与危险间游走的角色著称，从《天才雷普利》的迪基·格林利夫到《偷心》《冷山》《大侦探福尔摩斯》系列，再到《神奇动物在哪里》系列。

Law isn't only the lead. He's also an executive producer, shaping the series vision of New York City's nightlife, a world that's as glamorous as it is treacherous. Over the last three decades, Law has moved fluidly between independent films, Hollywood blockbusters, and stage work in London and New York. He's been nominated for two Academy Awards and is known for roles that walk the line between charm and danger. From Dickie Greenleaf and the talented mister Ripley to Closer, Cold Mountain, and the Sherlock Holmes films, as well as the Fantastic Beasts series.

裘德·洛，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。我们来聊聊你饰演的杰克和杰森·贝特曼扮演的弟弟。这不是该隐与亚伯式的善恶对决故事，你们俩的角色都相当糟糕。

Jude Law, welcome to Fresh Air. So let's talk a little bit about your character Jake and his brother played by Jason Bateman. This is not a Cain and Abel type story. This is not good versus evil. Both of you all are pretty messed up.

你会如何描述你的角色，杰克？

How would you describe your character, Jake?

嗯，兄弟俩及其关系是这部作品的前景，同时也展现了纽约生活的某个侧面，我希望也能反映任何城市的生活。它讲述的是组建团队，为那些风云人物提供一个热点场所，以及这类机构幕后发生的各种动态、复杂性、人际关系和压力。建造这个地方、这个场馆的兄弟俩，某种程度上反映了所有这些复杂性。

Well, the brothers and their relationship sit in the foreground of a piece that's also about a particular slice of New York life, and I hope sort of any city's life. It's about pulling together a team and providing a kind of hot spot for, you know, the movers and the shakers and all the dynamics that go on behind the scenes of that kind of establishment, the complexities, the relationships, the pressures. And the brothers who had built this this this this place, this this venue, are kind of reflections of all the complexities.

然后

And

其中一个是我的角色杰克，他像是门面担当，外表光鲜，面带微笑，皮鞋锃亮。从各方面看，他似乎非常成功、游刃有余，擅长处理问题、管理人际关系。而由杰森饰演的文斯，则更像是那种富有创意、无政府主义的点子王，但不擅长跟进执行。他消失了，回来后搅乱了一切。

one of them, my character Jake, is the the sort of front man, the veneer, you know, with a smile and a shoe shine. And for all accounts, seems to be very successful, very smooth, a great person at juggling issue, problem, people management. And Vince, played by Jason, is more of the sort of creative, anarchic idea guy, but not great at following through. And he's disappeared. He comes back and sort of shakes it all up.

但你会发现实际上背后隐藏着许多问题

But what you realize is that actually there's a whole lot of issues going on

是啊。

Yeah.

可以说，在杰克背后的帷幕之下。而文斯的到来，真的就像拉开了那道帷幕。

Behind behind the curtain, if you like, of of of Jake. And Vince's arrival really just sort of pulls that curtain apart.

你用'虚饰'这个词来形容你的角色，他表面看似完美无瑕。但正如你所说，这只是表象，内里其实充满复杂性。嗯。他面临着诸多挑战。我想播放一段他与弟弟文斯（由杰森·贝特曼饰演）的对话片段，他在谈论自己财务的真实状况。

You used the word veneer to describe, your character, that he has, like, this perfect veneer. But that's just the surface because underneath, as as you said, there's a lot of complexity. Mhmm. He's got a lot of challenges. I wanna play a clip where he's talking to his brother, Vince, as we said, played by Jason Bateman, and he's talking about the truth with his finances.

这段剪辑里所有线索开始汇聚，我们逐渐发现这家餐厅内部并不像表面那么光明正大。一起来听。

And in this clip, it all kinda comes together where we start to learn. It's not on the up and up inside of this restaurant. Let's listen.

你把妈妈的钱押注在尼克斯队上了。

You bet mom's money on the Knicks.

很多人都会押尼克斯队啊杰克，他们是职业篮球队。

A lot of people bet the Knicks, Jake. They're a professional basketball team.

那从餐厅拿的钱呢？

And the money you got from the restaurant?

就是你插手把我赶出去的那家餐厅？

It's the one you intervene kicked me out of?

没错。帮你解围。救了你的屁股。你

Yeah. Bailed you out. Bailed you out. Saved your ass. You

也把那笔钱赌上了，对吧？然后你降到初级职位，拿房子抵押贷款，又全押上去，结果输个精光，最后直接跑路了。我说得没错吧？

gambled that too. Right? Then you go down to junior, take a loan on the house, you bet it again, lost it all, and then you skip town. Sound right?

听起来像是你能想到的最难听的说法，不过没错，你全说中了。

Sounds like the least favorable way you could possibly phrase it, but, yeah, you're all caught up.

还有件事我不得不问，因为悬念快把我折磨死了。你的鞋怎么回事，文斯？

And us, I gotta ask, because the suspense is killing me. What happened to your shoes, Vince?

我在公交车上遇到了个好数字。你卖掉了

I got a sweet number on the bus. You sold

你的鞋。我拿了500美元，正在慢慢还债。我在尽我的力呢，吉格尔斯。

your shoes. I took $500, and I'm chipping away at it. I'm doing my part, Giggles.

是啊。

Yeah.

行了吧？我是在手指被那群该死的零帮砍掉后回家的路上干的这事，他们还放话说下一个就是珍。你这是在帮我。他们真这么说了？他们说下一个是珍？

Okay? I did it on my way home from getting my finger chopped off Well by those damn zeros who say Jen is next. You're helping me. They said that. They said Jen is next?

这正是

That's exactly what

他们说的。

they said.

你欠了

How much did

他们多少钱，文斯？

you owe them, Vince?

1.4美元。大数目。140美元？这可是个大数目。还有果汁的钱。

$1.40. Big number. $140? It's a big number. There was juice.

天啊。

Jesus.

这是我的嘉宾朱特·劳，在新Netflix剧集《黑兔》中与杰森·贝特曼同场飙戏。我知道你是这部剧的执行制片人，最初你考虑过让杰森担任导演。

That's my guest, Jute Law, in scene with Jason Bateman in the new Netflix series, Black Rabbit. I know that you're the executive producer on this, and you initially thought about Jason as a director.

是的。

Yes.

那后来怎么就成了他是你哥哥，而且还是那个特定的哥哥呢？

How did it come to be then he's your brother and he's that particular brother?

我记得当时的情况是，我们正在开发这个项目，当明显到了需要找一位导演来赋予它生命的时候，我们不断提到《黑钱胜地》及其基调，那种黑暗人性中带着幽默的风格，杰森作为演员也具备这种特质。幸运的是，他看到了我们在剧本中看到的潜力，于是加入担任导演，并全力投入其中。而我们还没找到适合扮演我兄弟的人选，我突然意识到——嘿，他不是很合适吗？他既是出色的演员，又是极佳的加分项。

I believe the order was we were developing this piece and when it became apparent that, you know, it was time to sort of go out, find the director who's gonna bring and breathe life into it, we kept referencing Ozark and the tonality of Ozark, that sort of dark human but humorous pitch that that Jason also has as a performer. And he fortunately saw what we saw in in the script and came on board as a director, wanted to wanted wanted to throw himself behind it. And the obvious and we hadn't found a a brother for me. And it just became apparent to me. Well, he should short you know, he's such a great actor, and what a great asset.

为什么不试试让他成为兄弟之一呢？他有一种令人喜爱的特质，我觉得即使文斯这个角色做了那么多坏事，有着那样的过往记录——

Why don't do you do you wanna be one of the brothers? And he has this incredible quality, I think, to be likable. And it it it seemed like if we could have a Vince that did all this bad had all this, you know, track record

我们还是会有点喜欢

And we still kinda like

他？

him?

但你依然会有点忘记那些事。是的。而且他依然能成为房间里最有趣的人，嗯。最富娱乐性和魅力的那个。幸运的是，他也意识到了这点。所以我们就这样成了兄弟。

But you still kinda forget Yeah. And he's can still kinda be the funniest guy in the room Mhmm. And the most entertaining and charismatic. And, you know, yeah, fortunately, he saw that. And so that's how we became the brothers.

这个迷人的世界，纽约夜生活背后的厨房故事，你知道的，能目睹所有戏剧性事件之类的。尤其是你的角色，他是个典型的纽约客。你塑造了这个纽约原型人物，甚至带出了点纽约口音。你有没有专门研究过某个特定人物或口音来体现这一点？

This fascinating world, New York nightlife behind the kitchen, you know, getting to see all the dramas and things like that. And your character in particular, he's a New Yorker. You're this New York archetype. You've even got a New York accent that kinda comes out. Did you study any particular person or accent or anything to to kinda embody that?

是的。杰克这个角色融合了我认识的几个从事类似工作的人，口音则是在与教练合作时形成的。我发现关键在于要对口音非常具体化。不能笼统地说这是某种纽约口音，而是要明确——

Yeah. Jake's a kind of amalgamation of a few people I know who had similar jobs, and the voice came from what working with with a with a coach. And the the the trick I find that's that helps is to be very specific about an accent. Like, you can't you can't just say it's a sort of general New York. It's like, okay.

他在哪里长大？父母说话什么口音？显然，我有个叫杰森的兄弟，所以还得考虑杰森的口音。你必须给口音赋予某种历史背景，否则就太泛泛了。所以——

What are the where did he grow up and what did the parents sound like? And, obviously, I had Jason as a brother, so I also had to go towards what Jason sounds like. And you have to give the accent a kind of history, otherwise, you're you're generalizing. And so

你为这个角色特别做了这些工作，把这个人物真正塑造成了一个有血有肉的人。

You did that for this character in particular where you you made a person out of this person.

这就是我的工作方式。你要回溯他的出生地、童年经历、母亲什么样、父亲什么样、朋友什么样...嗯...他在街头听什么音乐，看什么电视节目。你要梳理他的情感历程和生活轨迹，看他如何应对各种转折点、困境和戏剧冲突。这样当戏里有人提到你母亲时，你就能立即做出真实反应，因为你知道母亲经历过什么以及你对她的感受。

I had that's how I just like to do it. You go back and you go, where was he born and what was his childhood like and what was mom like, what was dad like, what was his friends like Mhmm. What was he listening to on the street, you know, what was his shows or is he watching? And you you you kinda track their emotional and their life up to where you are at and how they've dealt with the the the different bridges, the different dilemmas, the different dramas. And so you fill in this history so that, you know, if people talk in a scene about your mom, you have an immediate reaction because you know what happened to mom and how you feel about her.

嗯。口音也是同样道理，对吧？那些微小的影响因素很奇妙。以我自己的口音为例——我母亲来自英格兰北部，所以我说话带点北部腔调。是的，我父亲来自英格兰南部。

Mhmm. And it's the same with an accent, right? You you It's amazing that the little things that influence If I was to talk about my own accent, so I have my mother was from the North Of England, so I have a very A little bit of the Northern England in my ah's. Yeah. My dad's from the South Of England.

所以我成长在一个...该怎么形容呢？算是东南伦敦口音很重的地方，但我曾试图掩饰这种口音，因为我想让自己听起来更...

So And I grew up in quite a what would I call it? I don't know. There was quite a strong Southeast London accent, which I kind of tried to hide because I wanted to sound more

优雅？是的。

Posh? Yeah.

但它会不经意流露出来。比如当我回家或和某些朋友在一起时。没错，这些都会体现在我的声音里。

But it comes out Yeah. Like if I'm in if I go home or if I'm with certain friends. Yep. So all of that's in my voice.

是的。

Yes.

所以如果你在扮演一个角色，你会希望所有这些细节都到位。

And so if you're playing a character, you want all of those details to be there.

我对这项工作非常着迷，因为你必须用不同口音扮演多个角色。我能想象既要保持口音又要完全融入角色并不容易。

I'm so fascinated by this work because you've had to play quite a few characters with different accents. I can imagine it's not an easy thing to hold on to all of that while also realizing and that you have to embody this accent.

说实话，练习口音就像锻炼肌肉。即便扮演英国人时，我也觉得自己在用某种口音——毕竟每个人都有不同的成长背景，对吧？

When you practice it, it's kind of muscles, honestly, the end. I mean, personally, I think I'm always doing an accent, even when I'm playing someone who's English, because you still they have a different background. Right?

没错，这要看情况

Right. It depends

具体取决于英格兰的哪个地区，以及你需要思考透彻的部分，然后是实际操作的技巧。这种技巧其实很像带你的口腔和喉咙去健身房锻炼。本质上是在教会它们做出不同的动作。所以你会做一些有趣的句子练习，比如这样来训练舌头以特定方式移动，同时还需要大量聆听。

on what part just depends on what part of England, and and what you there's there's the thinking it through, and then there's the technique technique of doing it. And the technique is actually quite like taking your mouth and throat to the gym. You're basically teaching it to do different things. So you have you have drills to do funny, like, sentences so that you're you're teaching your tongue to go in a certain way, and and then and you listen a lot.

让我们稍事休息。如果您刚刚加入我们，我的嘉宾是演员裘德·洛。他在Netflix新剧《黑兔》中主演一位陷入犯罪、背叛与家族纠葛的夜总会老板。短暂休息后我们将继续对话。我是谭雅·莫斯利，这里是《周末新鲜空气》。

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Jude Law. He stars in the new Netflix series Black Rabbit, where he plays a nightclub owner entangled in crime, betrayal, and family ties. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is fresh air weekend.

在《生活指南》节目中，我们认真对待每一条建议。我们为您带来基于实证的推荐方案。为此我们会采访各类话题的研究人员和专家。因为我们和您有着同样的疑问。比如：我的洗发水里到底含有什么成分？

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics. Because we have the same questions you do. Like, what's really in my shampoo?

或者我该让孩子退出足球队吗？在经济不确定时期该如何处理储蓄？您可以通过NPR应用或任何播客平台收听NPR《生活指南》节目。

Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's life kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

也许您正在好奇：如何逃离流沙？或者该怎么和牙医结束医患关系？

Maybe you're wondering, how do I escape quicksand, or how do I break up with my dentist?

NPR播客《万事指南》第二季将于今年秋季上线，我们将尝试解答您的种种疑问。

Well, season two of NPR's How to Do Everything podcast is launching this fall, and we will attempt to answer your questions.

有时候，我们还真能成功找到答案。

Sometimes, we'll actually succeed.

请将您的问题发送至howto@npr.org，即howto@npr.org。

Send us your questions at howto@npr.org. That's howto@npr.org.

我对你为角色所做的某些塑造方式深感着迷。前几天我看了《烈火战将》，哦对，就是你2023年饰演亨利八世的那部电影。

I am really fascinated by some of the things you've done to really embody a role. So I watched the other night Firebrand. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Your 2023 film where you played King Henry the eighth.

我听说你专门聘请了一位调香师。

I read that you hired a perfumer.

其实我和她经常合作。

I work I work with her quite often, actually.

真的吗？是的。

Really? Yes.

没错。首先她是个绝对的天才，阿兹，她经营着一家名为'香水故事'的精品店。她调配的香氛能瞬间唤起情感共鸣。要知道，气味是快速积累感受和情绪的捷径——比如走进祖母家闻到特定气息时的触动，或是修剪草坪的清香，甚至是汽油味，这些强烈气味都能即刻激发记忆与情绪。

Yeah. She's first of all, she's an absolute genius, Azzy, and she runs an amazing perfumerie called The Perfumer Story. She makes incredible sense. And, you know, sense is a really quick way to accumulate sort of feelings and emotions. You know, if you walk into your grandma's house, it smells a certain way and you feel a certain way.

嗯。而我的工作很特殊——不管愿不愿意，你得迅速穿上别人的衣服，在短时间内完全成为另一个人。

Mhmm. If you go out and someone's been cutting the grass, right, it evokes all sorts of memories and the smell of gasoline, you know. Mean, things like that are very pungent and very quick to make you feel and think and fit, you know. And my job is an odd job. You know, whether you want to or not, you turn up, you put on someone else's clothes and you have to embody someone pretty damn quick.

有时候感觉就像，嘿，七点了，太阳升起来了，我们得去。我们得

And sometimes it's like, hey, it's seven, the sun's coming up, we gotta go to We gotta

把这事搞定。投入进去。我们来聊聊她为你做了什么，好吗？

get this done. Get in it. Let's talk about what she did for you, okay?

因为她创造了这个，她为我调制了一款香水，而我读过一篇关于亨利的文章。他腿上那些溃烂的伤口几乎腐烂，他能带着这些伤口活十年简直是奇迹。但据说隔着三个房间都能闻到他身上的味道。他散发着一种恶臭。

Because she she built this, she made a perfume for me, and I'd read this piece about Henry. He basically had these ulcers on his leg that were rotting, and it was a miracle he lived the ten years he did with them. But you could smell him apparently three rooms away. He stank like a fetid.

是的。

Yes.

我意识到，我扮演的是他生命最后阶段的角色，最终他因这些伤口引发高烧去世。我觉得如果我身上有臭味，对其他人和我自己都会很有帮助。所以她为我制作了这种令人难以置信的有毒气味，我差不多是把它喷在自己身上。

And it was a really what I realized, I'm playing him at the very end of his life when eventually he died of these things from a fever, and I just thought it would be very helpful to everyone else and to me if I stank. So she made me this incredible noxious odor that I kinda sprayed on myself.

那是用猪的汗液和粪便混合调制的。

It was made a concoction of pig sweat, fecal matter.

你会说，这上面是这么写的吗？

You're going, does this say this?

为了模仿腐烂鱼类的气味。所以那确实很糟糕。

To mimic the smell of decaying fish. So it was really bad.

那气味真的非常、非常、非常、非常恶臭。没错。但它确实有帮助。对我来说，扮演一个极其强大、完全支配性、期望所有人都对他每一个需求、想法和欲望俯首称臣的角色，却因体重过重和伤口而困在无法动弹的身体里，某种程度上活在自己腐烂的肉体中，这非常有趣。

It was really, really, really, really rancid. Yeah. But it really helped. To me, was very interesting playing someone who is incredibly powerful, all dominant, expects everyone to bow to their every need and thought and want, and yet is sitting in this in a in a body that is immobile because of the weight he's put on and because of the wounds he has, kind of in his own rotting flesh

嗯。

Mhmm.

他不得不直面自己，无法逃避对自己所做的一切以及自己变成的样子。要知道，他是个杀人如麻的刽子手。是的。而且极度妄想，在即将面对上帝时仍坚信自己仅次于上帝。就像在说，好吧。

And having to kind of face himself, and he can't escape what he's done to himself and who he's become. You know, he's a mass murderer. Yes. And deluded to the to to the extreme of believing that he's second only to God when he's about to face God. It's like, okay.

到底怎么回事？那个人心里在想什么？

What's going on? What's going on in that man?

嗯。你在那个角色里简直判若两人。我在想，片场肯定围绕那股恶臭有过不少有趣的讨论吧。这对你有帮助，对你的同事、搭档演员们也是。

Mhmm. You're pretty unrecognizable in that role. And I'm I'm just wondering, it there had to be some pretty interesting conversations around the rank smell on that set. It helped you. It also helped your colleagues, your costars.

其实，我并不是想吓唬他们或警告他们。但我们确实讨论过。艾丽西亚·维坎德在片中饰演我的妻子凯瑟琳·帕尔王后，她非常配合，因为她喜欢这种在恶臭包围中仍要保持亲密与忠诚的设定。明白吗？

Well, I mean, I did I it wasn't like I, you know, wanted to shock them or or warn them. You know? But but we discussed it. And Alicia Vikando, who is plays my wife in it, the queen queen Catherine Parr, was very game for it because she sort of loved this idea that she had to have this intimacy and this devotion amidst this sort of wall of stink. You know?

扮演我私人顾问的那些人是我在剧院的老朋友。这又是一种矛盾，既要欣赏他们的忠诚，又要忍受他们身体上令人震惊的衰退。嗯。

And the guys who play my my my privy counsel were old friends of mine from the theater. And, again, it was this sort of this this conflict between observing their their devotion and putting up with this this appalling physical decay. Mhmm.

你的父母是教育工作者。

Your parents were educators.

嗯。

Mhmm.

他们教什么？

What did they teach?

我父亲最初教英语，但后来年纪轻轻就成为了一所小学的校长。我母亲也教英语，她教小学，后来专门教那些不懂英语的外国孩子英语。之后她成立了一个剧团。她一直对戏剧非常热衷，所以停止了教学，去学了一门戏剧导演课程，并成立了一个剧团。

My father started out teaching English, but then became quite a young age, headmaster of a junior school. And my mom taught English. She taught junior school too, and then she specialized in teaching English to foreign children who are coming in without the, without English la knowledge of the English language. And then she set up a theater company. She was always very keen on theater, so she stopped teaching, went and did a a a a course in theater directing and set up a theater company.

你就是这么被引入戏剧的吗？

And is that how you were introduced to

其实在那之前，他们就已经积极参与当地的剧院活动，尤其是业余剧院，我就是这样开始接触戏剧的。那是一个充满社区感和乐趣的地方。我记得，我和姐姐坐在这个小剧院的后排，父母在台上表演，我们一边做作业，一边看着无尽的排练。对我来说，那里非常熟悉，也很安全。

I was already they were also very much involved in local theaters, local amateur theater, and that's really how I got involved. It was a place of great, yeah, community and fun. And I remember, you know, sitting in the back of the stalls of this little theater where mom and dad were putting on shows, doing my homework with my sister, sitting, watching, you know, endless rehearsals. And it just became a place for me of it was very familiar. It was safe.

那很有趣。而且，你知道，看着大人们玩耍、欢笑，解决问题，讲故事。我们如何以这种方式让人们理解？那就是教育的意义。我是说，我就是在这样的夜晚一夜一夜看着这些长大的。

It was fun. And, you know, seeing adults playing and laughing, figuring stuff out, telling stories. How do we do this in this way so that the people understand? And that was what an education. I mean, that's I grew up watching that night after night.

从一开始，你就引起了好莱坞的注意。《千钧一发》是我非常喜欢的一部电影，它已经成为一部邪典经典。当时它的表现相当不错。但《天才雷普利》，我认为，才是你真正成名、让人们记住你名字的时候。嗯。

From the very start, you caught Hollywood's attention. Gattaca is one that I I absolutely love, and it's a cult classic. At the time, it had done fairly well. But the talented mister Ripley, I think, is really when you became a name where folks could identify you. Mhmm.

当时他们对你的关注点是否让你感到意外？因为听起来你原本是想追求严肃的演艺事业

Did it take you then by surprise just what they were paying attention to? Because it sounds like you wanted to have this serious career

现在依然是。

Still do.

你已经做到了。但当你初到好莱坞时，

Which you have done. But when you first arrived,

那

it

完全是因为你的外貌。是的。这让你感到意外吗？

was really all about your looks. Yeah. Did that catch you by surprise?

其实不是。我当初拒绝了《天才雷普利》里那个角色，因为担心自己只是个好看的花瓶，这可能会限制我的职业发展。我希望被看作更有深度的演员。但很幸运我最终没拒绝，这个角色改变了我的职业生涯，让我能与众多优秀的人合作，打开了无数机会之门，是段非凡的经历。不过其中一扇被打开的门，确实就是外界对我外貌的关注。

Not really. I I actually turned down the role of in the terms of mister Ripley because my concern was he was the good looking guy, and I was worried that that would limit my career, I suppose. I wanted to be seen as something more than that. And I'm very lucky I didn't turn that role down because it changed my career, and I got to work with all these wonderful people, opened a lot of doors and it was a great experience. But it did all one of the doors it opened was this attention, yes, to what I look like.

说实话，我至今仍觉得这种关注很肤浅且令人沮丧。有趣的是，多年来女性总是被这样评头论足，但现在时代正在转变——如果有人用同样方式评价女性，她们完全可以理直气壮地说'这不合适，别这么讨论'。这种双标一直让我感到有些无奈。

And I still find that shallow and frustrating, if I'm honest. And it's interesting, isn't it, that we're in a time now where, you know, for women, for many years, that was something that was all the always discussed. And I kind of I but but fortunately, we're turning a corner now where if, you know, if if the same conversation were to be applied to a woman, they'd quite rightly be able to say, you know, that's not cool. Let's not let's not go there. And it's always been, yeah, a bit frustrating.

但讨论这个话题本身就很奇怪，因为谈论它时，我似乎又在变相承认...

But it's a very odd subject to talk about because in in talking about it also sort of feels like I'm affirming that, you know

你在暗示确实如此。

That you're saying, yeah.

我去看看

I'm gonna go look

长得帅。

good looking.

是啊。

Yeah.

但是但是但是，是的，这种感觉始终像是一种限制。嗯。奇怪的是。

But but but, yeah, it was a kind of a it felt always like a bit of a limitation. Mhmm. Weirdly.

你有没有尝试采取一些措施来对抗这种情况，以及你做出的选择？是的。

Did you try to do things to to combat that and the choices that you made? Yeah.

在一定程度上是的。在关键时刻，我确实选择了一些特定的角色，因为我当时想，哦，这样就能摆脱那种刻板印象。我现在愿意认为，我已经从事这行足够久了，并且希望提供了足够的证据和多样性，让人们不再只看到那一面。但就在前几天，我在多伦多电影节上，至少有两三个采访中，他们只想谈论我的外貌。我有点看着他们，心想，我是个52岁的人了。

For a certain amount Yeah. Of There were certain roles definitely at key moments which I chose because I just thought, oh, well, this will take it away from being that stereotype. I I like to think now that I've been doing it long enough, and I hope provided enough evidence and variety that that it's not or no longer all people see. But just the other day, I was at the Toronto Film Festival, and in at least two or three of the interviews, that's all they wanted to talk about. My looks, and I kinda looked looked at them and thought, you know, I'm a 52 year old guy.

我有三十年的职业生涯，而你们就只谈这个。

I've got a thirty year career, and that's all you're talking about.

是的。

Yes.

你知道，这非常奇怪。

You know, it was very odd.

是的。

Yes.

又一次，限制。只是感觉，但嘿，他们也不是在侮辱我。天啊。

And again, limiting. Just feel but hey, it's also it's not like they're insulting me. My god.

对，对。还有更糟的事情需要一直谈论。

Right. Right. There are worse things to have to keep talking about.

是啊，是啊。但这是会逐渐淡去的事情。所以你不能把整个生活都寄托在这上面。它会变的，你懂的。

Yeah. Yeah. But it is something that fades. So it can't be something you hang your entire life on. It changes, you know.

嗯。

Mhmm.

裘德·洛，非常感谢你。

Jude Law, thank you so much.

我的荣幸。

My pleasure.

裘德·洛主演的Netflix新剧《黑兔子》即将上映。今年秋天有许多新音乐发布，乐评人肯·塔克选择重点推荐三组风格迥异艺人的新作品。Big Thief的新专辑以主唱艾德里安·林克亲密的嗓音为特色，扎克·托普这位扎根于传统乡村音乐的年轻歌手亦是如此。还有冰岛华裔歌手雷薇，她将古典音乐和爵士元素融入流行歌曲中。以下是肯对这组多元音乐作品的点评。

Jude Law stars in the new Netflix series, Black Rabbit. There's a lot of new music being released this fall, and rock critic Ken Tucker has chosen to showcase new songs by three very different acts. Big Thief has a new album, and their sound is characterized by the intimate lead vocals of Adrian Linker as does Zach Top, a young country singer with roots in old country. There's also the Icelandic Chinese singer Leiwei who brings a classical music and jazz influence to her pop songs. Here's Ken's review of this eclectic gathering.

近年来鲜有乐队能像Big Thief这样广受赞誉，其标志性声音是Adrian Lenker那萦绕心头的嗓音。这支乐队刚刚推出的第六张专辑《Double Infinity》——我刚才播放了标题曲的一小段——从四人组合变为三人组，但通过首次加入和声歌手，其音乐层次反而更加丰富。Lanker的嗓音是否需要伴唱或许见仁见智，但这确实为专辑增添了亲密的同僚氛围。在《洛杉矶》这首歌中，这支来自纽约布鲁克林的乐队沐浴着加州的阳光与热浪，谱写出一曲献给跨大陆友情的温暖颂歌。当Adrian Lenker的嗓音盘旋翱翔时，Zach Top那带着鼻音的紧致声线，将这位27岁歌手与Lefty Frizzell、Webb Pierce等经典乡村歌手紧密相连。

Few bands have been as widely acclaimed in recent years as Big Thief, whose signature sound is the haunting voice of Adrian Lenker. Big Thief's new sixth album, I just played a bit from the title track, Double Infinity, finds the former quartet now a trio, but its sound has expanded with the addition of backup singers for the first time. Whether Lanker's vocals needed backing is up for debate, but it certainly added a chummy collegial air to this album. On the song called Los Angeles, this band from Brooklyn, New York soaks up the LA sun and heat and turns out a warm hymn to cross continental friendship. Where Adrian Lenker's voice swoops and soars, Zach Top's voice has a pinched nasal tone that connects this 27 year old all the way back to classic country crooners like Lefty Frizzell and Webb Pierce.

Top的创作功力足以让《Good Times and Tanlines》这类诙谐歌曲充满妙趣横生的细节和声乐花腔，使其超越 novelty song 的范畴成为更有分量的作品。

Top is enough of a craftsman that he can fill a funny song like Good Times and Tamlines with so many amusing little details and vocal curly cues that it becomes something more substantial than a novelty.

些许尘土，缕缕轻烟，雪佛兰里的舞者驶过碎石路，前往那个人尽皆知的地方——老旧的绳索吊着个铁球晃荡。说着古铜色肌肤下的美好时光，冰啤酒与夏夜，那就是全部的笑料来源。美好时光与古铜色。美好的美好时光与古铜色。

A little bit of dust, little bit of smoke, baller in a Chevy down a gravel road headed to a spot everybody knows a cannonball swinging from an old frayed road. Talking about good times in tan lines, cold beer and summer nights, That was all there was to laugh. Good time and tan lines. Good good times and tan lines.

Zach Top的热门单曲和新专辑《Ain't In It For My Health》标志着乡村音乐的转向，这个近年模仿嘻哈节奏的流派正在他的推动下，复兴九十年代新传统主义乡村乐的新变体。在《Country Boy Blues》中，Top以令人卸下心防的直白方式，道出了潮人乡村乐与自己复古风格之间的鸿沟。

Zach Kopp's big hit singles and new album Ain't In It For My Health signal a shift in country music, which has spent recent years emulating hip hop rhythms. Top is making popular a new variation on the neo traditionalist country music of the nineteen nineties. Top addresses the gap between hipster country and his own retro style in a disarmingly direct manner on country boy blues.

我擦亮我的吉他，枕着我的进城蓝调入眠。

I shined up my picker and slept on my go to town blues.

现在让我们从乡村乐急转到古典领域，确切地说是介绍这位受过古典训练的大提琴手、钢琴家、吉他弹唱创作人——Leve。

Now let's take a big swerve from country to classical, specifically the classically trained cellist, pianist, guitar strumming singer songwriter called Leve.

我感知自我的方式。我感觉全都一样。我不认为自己漂亮。这无需争论。女人最好的货币是她的身体，而非大脑。

Ways in which I feel myself. I feel all the same. I don't think I'm pretty. It's not up for debate. A woman's best currency is her body, not her brain.

独自一人。

Alone.

凭借流畅的爵士乐演绎与编曲，26岁的莱维通过TikTok视频俘获了数百万听众的喜爱。在她的第三张专辑《时间问题》中，莱维巧妙融合了传统音乐影响，歌词创作充满犀利锋芒。比如听她对自诩博学的傲慢男子‘ eclectic先生’的机智讽刺。尽管这三个音乐人风格迥异，但大盗乐队、扎克·托普和莱维的共同点在于，他们都精准捕捉了爱恋对象迷人又缺陷并存的特质——听完你会渴望成为他们歌颂的对象，或庆幸自己不是被批判的目标。

With her smooth jazz phrasing and arrangements, the 26 year old Leve has charmed millions who first became aware of her via her TikTok videos. Leve on her new third album, A Matter of Time, cleverly melds her old school influences and writes lyrics that have an invigorating sting to them. Listen, for example, to her witty put down of an egotistical guy called mister eclectic. As different as these three acts are, what big thief, Zach Top, and Leve have in common is the way they succinctly summarize both the allure and the flaws of the people they've fallen in or out of love with. You end up either wishing you were the object of their admiration or glad you're not on the receiving end of their criticism.

肯·塔克点评了大盗乐队、扎克·托普和莱维的新作。接下来我们将听到佩德罗·帕斯卡的分享——仅今年他就出演了席琳的MV、爱情片《物质主义者》、阿里·艾斯特的《埃丁顿》以及《神奇四侠》首部曲。我是坦尼娅·莫斯利，这里是《周末新鲜空气》。

Ken Tucker reviewed new music by Big Thief, Zach Top, and Leve. Coming up, we hear from Pedro Pascal. This year alone, he's appeared in Celine's songs, romantic drama materialists, Ari Aster's, Eddington, and the fantastic four first steps. I'm Tanya Mosley, and this is fresh air weekend.

虽然媒体充斥着特朗普总统的报道，但信息过载令人疲惫。因此在《特朗普条款》栏目中，我们为您提炼关于这位第47任总统的简明故事（每期不超过五分钟），即时追踪关税政策、经济动态及其史无前例的执政方式。《特朗普条款》，可通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听。

The news is saturated with coverage of president Trump, but it is easy to get overloaded. So on Trump's terms, we bring you short digestible stories, five minutes or less, about the forty seventh president. Listen for same day developments on tariffs, the economy, and all of the ways that Trump is governing like no president ever has before. Trump's terms. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

大伙听说了吗？《代码转换》入选《时代》杂志史上百大播客啦！啧啧。

Did y'all hear? Code Switch is one of Time Magazine's top 100 podcasts of all time, baby. Mhmm.

他们评价我们的节目是‘一种文化罗盘，从不说教，始终好奇不平等现象在人们现实经历中的根源’。嗯哼。

They called our show, quote, a kind of cultural compass, never preachy, always curious about the roots of inequality in people's lived experience. Mhmm.

虽然我有偏心，但这个评价确实精准。我们每周都在深入探讨这些议题。

I mean, I'm biased, but we couldn't have put it better ourselves. And we are digging into all this every week.

所以请确保您在NPR应用或任何您获取播客的地方收听下一期《Code Switch》。

So make sure you catch the next episode of Code Switch on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

如果你在过去一年里看过电视、电影，甚至只是瞥了一眼公交站广告，你很可能看到佩德罗·帕斯卡尔凝视着你。仅今年夏天，他的面孔就出现在《神奇四侠》《第一步》《埃丁顿》和席琳·宋的《物质主义者》的海报和广告牌上。他还正在为《复仇者联盟：末日之战》做准备，除此之外，他因在HBO《最后生还者》中饰演乔尔一角获得了艾美奖提名。过去十年间，帕斯卡尔已成为好莱坞最具魅力的男主角之一，经常扮演不情愿的保护者角色，如《曼达洛人》和《最后生还者》中那样，在最不可能的地方找到家人。这种银幕上寻获家庭与他个人生活的联系，在2023年他主持《周六夜现场》独白时尤为突出，当时他感谢父母为将他从南美带到美国所做的牺牲，这段始于政治流亡的旅程，部分塑造了他以饰演寻找归途的局外人为标志的职业生涯。

If you've watched TV, gone to the movies, or even glanced at a bus stop ad in the past year, you've probably seen Pedro Pascal staring back at you. This summer alone, his face has been splashed across posters and billboards for the fantastic four, first steps, Eddington, and Celine Song's materialists. He's also gearing up for Avengers doomsday, and that's on top of an Emmy nomination for his role as Joel in HBO's the last of Us. In the past decade, Pascal has become one of Hollywood's most magnetic leading men, often playing reluctant protectors like in The Mandalorian and The Last of Us, who find family in the unlikeliest of places. That connection between found family on screen and his own life came into sharp focus during his Saturday Night Live monologue in 2023 when he credited his parents for making sacrifices to bring him to The United States from South America, a journey that began with political exile and helped shape a career defined in part by portraying outsiders finding their way in.

这种个人历史与银幕脆弱性的结合，使他在好莱坞成为罕见的存在——一个让人们感觉熟悉亲近的明星。《纽约客》最近的一幅漫画完美捕捉了这一点：一位心理医生对客户说，‘这完全不奇怪。最近很多人都表示，他们对人性的信心完全取决于佩德罗·帕斯卡尔是否真的像看起来那么友善。’佩德罗·帕斯卡尔，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。

That combination of personal history and on screen vulnerability has made him something rare in Hollywood, a star that people feel like they know. A recent New Yorker cartoon captured it perfectly. A therapist tells a client, it's not strange at all. Lately, a lot of people are reporting that their faith in humanity is riding entirely on whether or not Pedro Pascal is as nice as he seems. Pedro Pascal, welcome to Fresh Air.

表演对你而言意味着什么？因为你从四岁左右就开始说想当演员了。

What was it about acting? Because I you start talking about wanting to be an actor at, like, four years old.

嗯，我出生于75年。想象一下在电影院看《ET》的感觉。还有《鬼驱人》《七宝奇谋》和《小魔怪》，明白吗？所以我非常容易就构建了一个幻想世界。嗯。

Well, I was born in '75. And just think about seeing ET in the movie theater. You know? Think about seeing Poltergeist and The Goonies and, you know, Gremlins and you know? So I was very, very easy source of building a a a fantasy Mhmm.

就是那种，你知道，希望自己要么在经历这些冒险，要么成为讲述这些故事冒险的一部分。

Of of, you know, wishing you were either living these adventures, experiencing these adventures, or part of the adventure of telling those stories.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？

You know?

我不断发现这些小细节，比如你对紫色的痴迷。是的，詹姆斯·鲍德温的《给有色女孩》，还有《杀死一只知更鸟》。看来你也非常热爱文学。我试着拼凑出这个孩子到底是谁。

I keep coming across these little details like you being obsessed with the color purple. Yeah. James Baldwin for colored girls, to kill a mockingbird. So you were really into literature as well. I'm trying to piece together who is this kid.

你会如何描述当时的自己？你是个情感深刻的孩子，但这些世界为你提供了什么？因为，你知道，对其他人来说它们只是娱乐，但听起来对你而言还有更深层次的沉浸感。

How would you describe yourself back then? You were a deeply feeling child, but what did these worlds provide for you? Because, you know, they're entertaining for everyone else, but it sounds like there was another step for you where you felt immersed in them.

嗯，我认为被感动时，你会感觉充满活力。你会感到非常受启发，在学校里，通过那些了不起的故事、精彩的表演和文学。明白吗？所以《紫色》的创作过程很有趣，因为我们那时有有线电视，琥碧·戈德堡有个电视节目被搬上百老汇，后来又为HBO拍成电视剧。就叫《琥碧秀》。

Well, I think being moved, you feel very alive. You feel very inspired, you know, and in school, in a way, by incredible storytelling, incredible performances, incredible literature. You know? So the process around The Color Purple is very interesting because we had cable TV, and Whoopi Goldberg had a televised show that had been transferred to Broadway and then shot for television for HBO. Was just called Whoopi.

是的。

Yes.

她一人分饰多个角色，我完全被震撼了。那简直是魔法。那个《琥碧秀》，我看了无数遍，甚至能背出她的一些独白。

And she was playing a bunch of different characters, And I was just floored. It was magic. And with that show, Whoopee, I mean, I saw that so many times. I could do some of her monologues.

毛巾包着头发的造型。

The hair in the towel.

哦，天哪。他说，好吧。我说，好吧。我们说，好吧。好吧。

Oh, my gosh. And he said, okay. I said, okay. We said, okay. Okay.

我是说，我真的从八十年代以后就没再见过那种场景了。

And I mean, I literally haven't I haven't seen that since, I think, the eighties.

是啊。

Yeah.

你知道吗？而且它深深印在我脑海里。对吧？然后，我正从电影院走出来，看到一张海报，上面是乌比·戈德堡的剪影，坐在摇椅里

You know? And it's imprinted. Right? And then, I'm walking out of a movie, and I see a poster of this, like, silhouette of Whoopi Goldberg in a rocking chair

嗯。

Mhmm.

紫色的嗯。还有史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格的名字在上面，以及她的名字，乌比·戈德堡，用紫色写着。我完全被它的营销手法打动了。我认为这部电影是一部杰作。我觉得这是电影史上最伟大的银幕表演之一嗯。

With purple Mhmm. And Steven Spielberg's name on it, And her name, Whoopi Goldberg, in the color purple. And I'm just like here I am completely moved by the marketing of it. And I think the movie is a masterpiece. And I think it's one of the greatest screen performances in the history of cinema Mhmm.

那是她纯粹作为新人的首次银幕表演。

That she did in her purely freshman experience, her first time on camera.

是啊。

Yeah.

在电影里。对。她的第一个电影角色。

On film. Yeah. Her first movie role.

没错。

Right.

说实话，我被深深打动了，以一种最美妙的方式，我无法释怀。所以我必须买下那本书，然后我读了它。

And I just was frankly overwhelmed, you know, by it in the best way, and I couldn't let it go. So I had to get the book, and I read the book.

你会带着那本书到处走吗？我会一直拿着它。

You'd walk around with the book? I would hold it.

是的。我会像对待珍宝一样捧着它。

Yeah. I will I would hold it like a like a a treasure.

你妈妈在你身上看到了这一点。她看到了并因此想与你建立联系。你们会有家庭电影之夜。

Your mom saw this in you. She saw this and wanted to connect with you because of it. You guys will have these family movie nights.

对，对。描述一下那个...我爸爸是，我爸爸是那个电影迷。我妈妈则比较挑剔。如果我特别沉迷一本书，或者里面有Prince（王子乐队的歌曲），她会更容易注意到。

Yeah. Yeah. Describe what that My dad was my dad was the was the was the moviegoer. My my mom was selective. She would fall for she would notice much more if I if I was, like, really into a book, or if Prince was in it.

所以你是个超级Prince粉丝。但那也...

So you're a big Prince Prince fan. But that also

不，她才是。她才是Prince的粉丝。

was She was no. She was the Prince fan.

好吧。

Okay.

她是Prince的狂热粉丝，连带让我也成了他的大粉丝。

She was the huge Prince fan, which by proxy made me a big Prince fan.

那大概是《紫雨》时期的事吧。

And that's around Purple Rain time.

哦，没错。

Oh, yeah.

这些家庭电影之夜是什么样的？

What were these movie nights like? These family movie nights?

嗯，《紫雨》就是个很好的例子，我们全家一起去看的。我爸总想方设法在上学日的晚上带我们去看他想看的电影，但《紫雨》那次是全家出动。这些大概是我最珍贵的回忆了，我们全家都特别爱看电影。

Well, Purple Rain is a perfect example of where we all went together. Like, my dad would try to, you know, take us on a school night whenever he got a chance to whatever he wanted to see, but Purple Rain was like, we're all going. You know? And I guess they're sort of, you know, my most special memories. We're very sort of like movie going family.

我姐姐热爱舞蹈，学过芭蕾。小时候因为她学芭蕾，我们经常去看芭蕾演出。我起初很讨厌，直到有次看了《仲夏夜之梦》的滑稽版演出，才开始真正欣赏通过舞蹈讲述故事的方式。

My older sister has a love of dance and did ballet. So we would go to the as a child, she studied ballet, and so we would go to the ballet a lot. I hated it at first until I saw, I think, a really hilarious production of a a Midsummer Night's Dream, and then started to kind of, really appreciate the kind of storytelling that happened through through dance.

你跳过舞吗？

Did you ever dance?

没有专业跳过。我是说，我只会逮着机会就随便跳跳那种。

I didn't. I didn't dance. I mean, I danced, you know, like, at at any chance I got.

比如跟着王子乐队的歌扭两下。

Yeah. To Prince and stuff.

对对对，就在家里瞎跳。

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I danced around the house.

是的。我在父母的派对上跳舞，圣诞节、新年，所有这些场合都跳。我从未上过舞蹈课。但后来我母亲发现了一个表演艺术项目，我从高中一年级一直参加到毕业，必须学习舞蹈。你知道，我演过《西区故事》，而且我热爱跳舞。

Yeah. I danced around my parents' parties, Christmas, New Year's, all that all that stuff. I never took class. But then in a performing arts program that my mother found that I I went to from my freshman year in high school to graduation, you had to study dance. You know, did West Side Story, and and I love dancing.

实际上在大学里，我真正深入接触了，我想你可以称之为后现代风格的即兴舞蹈。毕业后，我唯一能找到的工作就是通过运动学教授的介绍，做了很多市中心的活动。

And actually got sort of really seriously into, I guess, you would call sort of postmodern style of improvisational dance in college. And that was the only work I could get when I graduated actually, were through movement professors and doing a lot of downtown stuff.

你说市中心，具体指哪里？

When you say downtown, what do you mean?

第十四街以南。好吧。圣马可教堂。

South Of Fourteenth Street. Okay. Saint Mark's Church.

好的。

Okay.

下东区。

Lower East Side.

是的。

Yeah.

东村，特定场域的表演艺术。这部作品名为《得墨忒耳的女儿》，由编舞家塔玛·罗格夫构思，她是我们家族的终身挚友，也是克莱尔·丹尼斯的导师。

East Village, site specific performances. This this this piece called Demeter's Daughter that was conceived by a choreographer named Tamar Rogoff, who is a lifelong family friend and mentor to Claire Danes. And

你为她们具体做些什么工作呢？

What kinds of stuff would you do for them? Yeah.

我们喜欢后现代舞，就是那种创造动作和舞蹈的形式。它不是那种传统编排——记住动作就行，而是更倾向于‘让我们动起来’

We like like postmodern dance, like like, you know, sort of create movement and dance. And then it wasn't the kind of thing like, this is the choreography. Learn it. It was like, let's move

嗯。

Mhmm.

然后共同创作这个作品。

And let's write this together.

有点像即兴发挥，不过是针对身体的。

Kinda like improvisation, but for for the body.

针对肢体运动的。

For body movement.

我对那种身体表现力感到非常着迷，因为你扮演的所有角色都有一种身体的克制感。我在想《最后生还者》里的乔尔，你会如何描述他身体里承载的东西？

I'm so fascinated about that physicality because there is a holding of the body in all the characters that you play. I'm thinking about in the last of us. Like, how would you describe what Joel is holding in his body?

是的。首先承载着很多创伤。简单来说，这是个靠双手干活的人。他是承包商，建造东西。我认为他通过体力劳动来表达自我。嗯。

Yeah. Holding a lot of trauma, one. And then in a more simple way, this is a man who works with his hands. He's a contractor, and, he builds things. He, I think, expresses himself through his physical relationship to work Mhmm.

还有维护之类的工作。所以这有点像理解一个用双手粗糙工作、长期从事体力劳动的人。

And to maintenance and and that kind of thing. So it's sort of like understanding a person who works very roughly with his hands and is in sort of a very consistent relationship to physical labor.

嗯。

Mhmm.

懂吗？是的。某种程度上他可能很喜欢这样，因为这比交谈简单多了。

You know? Yeah. In a way that that that he probably loves because it's way easier than having a conversation.

对。对。对。但这是

Right. Right. Right. But it's

你和你的舞蹈背景如此迷人的原因在于，我是说，你的表演很大程度上是肢体化的。就像我想到你参演的许多电影，你的表演中有种无声的力量，但你是通过身体来讲述故事的。

so fascinating about you and your your history with dancing because, I mean, so much of well, so much of your acting is so physical. Like, I'm just thinking about a lot of films that you're in. There's so much silent power in what you're doing, but it's through your body that you're telling the story.

嗯，《权力的游戏》就是个完美例子，体验那种角色曝光度的感觉。可以说这个角色最出名的就是打斗戏。

Well, Game of Thrones being a perfect example of, like, experiencing, you know, that level of exposure for a part. And one would argue that what the role is most known for is the fight.

是的。

Yes.

那其实比你想象的更像舞蹈。

And that is more dance than you can possibly believe.

对啊。

Yeah.

除非你想找死，懂吗？那是最纯粹的肢体表现，最纯粹的编舞艺术。讽刺的是我接那部戏时都快40岁了。

If you don't wanna get killed anyway, you know? That is that is that is physicality in its purest form, and that is choreography in its purest form. So it's just ironic because I was already pushing 40 when that job happened.

没错。

Right.

所以后来打开的大门，坦白说都通向动作片领域，充斥着超乎想象的极限体能编舞经历。虽然我在舞台剧里也接触过大量打斗编排，比如莎翁戏剧之类的，但这次完全是另一个层次。

And so the doors that opened were, frankly, leaning in the world of action and a lot of highly, highly, highly physical choreography in the experiences, more so than I could have ever imagined. Having had a lot of, like, fight choreography on stage, you know, in Shakespeare and and and all that, but this was, like, another level.

你的家族历史非常引人入胜，因为你的父母在你还是婴儿时逃离了智利。成长过程中，你听到的是怎样的故事？

Your family history is fascinating because your parents fled Chile when you were a baby. Growing up, what was the story that you heard?

实际上，我并没有听过任何相关的故事。现在之所以能听到，是因为我主动询问。而且我也感受到他们那种想要分享的渴望，想要诉说这对他们意味着什么——比如我父亲的姐妹们如何以那种方式与她们的兄弟告别，或者我母亲的家人如何生活在母亲躲藏期间的恐惧中。

You know, I didn't hear any stories about it, actually. And I hear stories now because I I ask. And I also am met with the sort of desire to share and desire to tell what it meant for, you know, my father's sisters to say goodbye to their brother, in in that way, or for my mother's family to live in the terror of the experience of her going into hiding.

那么你后来了解到的故事是什么？因为据你所知，你的父母当时非常年轻。你还是个婴儿时，他们就从南美洲逃到了美国德克萨斯州。

Because what's the story because the story that you came to learn your parents were very young. You were a baby and they fled from South America to The United States to Texas.

是的。我们最初在丹麦获得了庇护。要不是有人帮助我父亲进入他在德克萨斯州圣安东尼奥的实验室工作，我们很可能就留在那里了。

Yes. We had asylum in Denmark first. And we're likely to, you know, stay there were it not for somebody that helped hire my father into his, lab in San Antonio, Texas.

你的父母为什么被流放？

Why were your parents exiled?

哦，他们参与了反对皮诺切特军事政权的抵抗运动。他们是阿连德的支持者，坦白说，当时非常年轻且思想开放。在我母亲那边，有个表亲叫安德烈斯·帕斯卡尔，是反对运动的领袖。所以我想，仅仅因为这种关联，就可能让整个家族陷入危险。但具体是有个人带着一名腿部中枪的伤者来到我父母家，他知道我父亲正在医院实习，于是寻求帮助。

Oh, well, they were involved in the opposition movement against the military regime under Pinochet. They were Allenda supporters and frankly, just very young and liberal. And my mother's side of the family, there's a cousin of my mother's, Andres Pascal, who was a leader of the opposition movement. And so that, I think, just by association, sort of could put the name and family in in peril. But there was someone who brought an injured man to my mother's and father's home knowing that my father was doing his residency at a hospital and asked for help, and he'd been shot in the leg.

是一位神父把那个人带到我们家的。那时候我还是个婴儿，自然毫无记忆。但后来那位神父被拘留并遭受了酷刑。

And the it was a it was a priest who brought him over to to our house, and and, you know, at this point, I'm an infant, so obviously, I have no memory. But the priest was taken into custody and he was tortured

嗯。

Mhmm.

他提供了名字，然后他们开始寻找我的父母，于是他们不得不躲藏起来寻找生存之道。这其中有大量细节构成了一个引人入胜的故事——我父亲偶然得知有人在医院大厅询问他的名字时，恰好有位病人打断了军官的盘问时刻，喊着'我疼得受不了了却没人管我'。我时常思索（当然要谨慎区分故事与真实），但这个机缘巧合

And he gave names and and then they went looking looking for my parents and and, you know, and so they they had to, you know, go into hiding and and find a way to survive. There are a lot of details that kinda go into it that that create, like, such a fascinating story that the the the odd circumstance of my father finding out that someone was in the lobby asking for his name and and a patient that kind of, like, interrupted the moment where the officer wanted to was about to ask my father who he was or his name, if he was doctor in fact, doctor Balmaceta, and and and and a patient that was like, you know, I'm in pain and and and no one is attending to me. And I almost wonder I mean, you know, you gotta be careful because you you know, what how much story do you build around it and and and what's really real. But this was this chance circumstance

嗯。

Mhmm.

让我父亲得以从后门溜走去接我母亲，开始了逃亡生活。事实证明他们的判断是对的——那些人后来闯进家里把一切翻得底朝天。约半年后他们找到个计划：潜入委内瑞拉大使馆寻求政治庇护...天啊...最终才得以与我和姐姐团聚。

That gave my father the opportunity to sneak out the back to go and and get my mother and and and and go into hiding. And and they were right because they came to the house. They ran. They they tore everything apart, and it was about six months before they found a plan, to sneak into the Venezuelan embassy and claim asylum Oh, wow. And be reunited with my sister and I.

成年后才知晓这样的故事真特别。这不是你从小耳熟能详并引以为豪的家族传说。

What a story to learn in adulthood. It's not a lore. It's not a story you grew up knowing and having pride in.

对。我隐约有感觉。记得有次看《失踪》电影时印象极其深刻——想想多讽刺啊，我们这个核心家庭住在德州圣安东尼奥郊区，却背负着并不久远的逃亡记忆。当时独裁统治仍在持续，而我在家中看着相关题材电影，西西·斯派克的身形和我母亲简直一模一样。

Right. I had a sense of it. I remember one very, very vivid experience of seeing the movie missing. See, this is the funny thing is that, like, here we are, this nuclear family in the suburbs of San Antonio, Texas with this not distant legacy of escape. I mean, the dictatorship was was continuing on, and I'm seeing a movie about it in my house, And Sissy Spacek is the size of my mother.

没错。因为...是的。确实。

Right. Because of Yes. Yes.

还有那部电影《失踪》，对吧，是科斯塔·格雷夫斯拍的。

And the movie Missing, right, by Costa Graves.

是的。

Yes.

而她，你知道，意外地在宵禁后还流连街头，生命岌岌可危，而我不知怎地把这一切联系起来，想象我母亲童年时处于那种境地的情景，整个人彻底崩溃了。你多大了？电影上映时我大概，呃，可能七岁吧。哇。是啊。

And her, you know, being out in the streets past curfew by accident and her life being in peril and and me somehow putting all of that together and understanding that sort of placing my mother in that circumstance as a child and just, like, absolutely falling apart. How old are you? I when the movie came out in I must have been, like, I don't know, maybe seven. Wow. Yeah.

那是个不同的年代。父母们都让我们——父母们

It was a different time. Parents were letting us parents

噢，我懂。

Oh, I know.

父母都放任我们看任何电视上播的内容。

Parents were letting us watch whatever was on TV.

但我说‘哇’是因为你居然能把这些拼凑起来，还莫名理解了西西·贝塞克就是我妈。

But I'm saying wow about you piecing that together and somehow understanding Sissy Baysec is is my mom.

是啊。就是那种感觉。

Yeah. Feeling that way.

就是那种感觉。

Feeling that way.

那一刻就是那种感觉。而我必须停下来。我我我崩溃了。

Feeling that way in that moment. And I it had to stop. I I I fell apart.

你是真的开始哭了吗？

You you literally started crying?

哦，是的。我开始我我我是说，就像你知道的，我觉得某种，你知道，近乎嚎啕大哭的状态。我当时我当时我当时只是我太...你有试着跟我妈妈说过这事吗？不知道。

Oh. Yeah. I started I I I mean, was like I you know, I think something, you know, bordering on on howling. I was I was I was just I was so you ever try to to my mom about it? Don't know.

我从没有机会像现在跟你这样跟我妈妈谈这件事。你知道吗？遗憾的是，我在想她是否理解。但，是的，简单回答的话，没有。并没有真正谈过。

I never got a chance to talk to my mom about it the way I'm talking to you about it. You know? Unfortunately, I wonder if if she understood. But, yeah, I guess just to to answer it simply, no. Not really.

当你说想知道她是否理解时，你指的是什么？

When you say you wonder if she understood, what do you mean?

如果她明白我某种程度上是个为她担忧的儿子，你知道的，虽然能感知到周遭环境却不知如何消化这些情境。

If she understood that I was kind of a son who was scared for her, you know, and kind of absorbing the context but not really knowing how to process the context.

电影在你生命中一直占据着重要地位。

Movies have been so important to you in your life.

方方面面。确实如此。

Everything. Yeah.

它们帮助你理解这个世界。

They allow you to understand the world.

是啊。没错。

Yeah. Yeah.

而现在你正在为他人创造这种体验。你有这样想过吗？

And now you're doing that for other people. Do you ever think about it like that?

我深感幸运能从事自己热爱的事业，与志同道合的伙伴共事，始终成为某种体验的一部分——无论作品是否被广泛认可。但每个参与者都倾注了全部身心，对创作充满热忱。这种联结非常紧密，过程也充满乐趣。除此之外，我别无所知。

I feel profound gratitude to be doing something that I love to do and and the people that I get to do it with and being sort of always a part of an experience, you know, whether it's well received or not. But always, like, everyone involved is putting their entire selves and bodies into, you know, and and cares so much about about making it. And it's very bonding. It's very fun. And I don't know anything else.

哦，佩德罗。这真是太棒了。

Oh, Pedro. This has been great.

谢谢你，坦尼娅。非常感谢你的邀请。我简直不敢相信这是我人生中值得铭记的时刻之一。开始前我说过，从青少年时期起我就通过父母收听NPR，整个成年后的人生里，《新鲜空气》这档节目我一直听到现在。

Thank you, Tanya. Thank you so much for having me. I can't tell you this is part of my little pinch me moment. I told you before we started, I've been listening to NPR through my parents since I was a teenager. And my entire adult life, I've been listening to Fresh Air forever.

能坐在这里和你交谈非常特别。

And getting to sit here with you is is very special.

佩德罗·帕斯卡主演了《最后生还者》。他最新参演的电影包括《神奇四侠：第一步》《埃丁顿》以及席琳·宋执导的《物质主义者》。《周末新鲜空气》由特蕾莎·马登制作，执行制作人是丹尼·米勒，技术总监兼工程师是奥黛丽·本瑟姆。

Pedro Pascal stars in The Last of Us. His latest films are the fantastic four first steps, Eddington, and Celine Song's materialists. Fresh air weekend is produced by Theresa Madden. Fresh air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.

我们的执行制作人是萨姆·布里格。和特里·格罗斯一起，我是托尼娅

Our managing producer is Sam Brigger. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya

·莫斯利。如何

Moseley. How

禁止来自所谓第三世界国家移民的边缘立场，是如何影响美国一些最具权势的政策制定者的？

does a fringe stance on banning immigrants from so called third world countries influence some of the most powerful policymakers in The US?

主流保守派共和党政客愿意讨论包括合法移民在内的总体移民水平过高的问题。

Mainstream normie Republican politicians are willing to talk about total level of immigration, including legal immigration, being too high.

你可以在NPR的《代码转换》节目中了解更多相关内容，无论你在哪里收听播客。

You can hear more about that on code switch from NPR wherever you get your podcasts.

跟进新闻动态可能感觉像一份24小时不间断的工作。幸运的是，这正是我们的工作。在每小时更新的NPR新闻速递播客中，我们精选最新最重要的新闻事件，将其打包成五分钟的短节目，让你能在会议间隙或赶路途中轻松收听。现在就收听NPR新闻速递播客吧。

Keeping up with the news can feel like a twenty four hour job. Luckily, it is our job. Every hour on the NPR News Now podcast, we take the latest, most important stories happening, and we package them into five minute episodes so you can easily squeeze them in between meetings and on your way to that thing. Listen to the NPR News Now podcast now.