精选集：斯嘉丽·约翰逊与琼·斯奎布 / 马克·朗森

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这里是费城WHYY电台的《新鲜空气周末》，我是塔尼娅·莫斯利。今天，斯嘉丽·约翰逊和朱恩·斯奎布这两位奥斯卡提名演员讨论了她们的新片《伟大的埃莉诺》，这是约翰逊的导演处女作。影片讲述了一位女性开始将她已故朋友的大屠杀幸存故事据为己有的故事。此外，格莱美获奖制作人马克·朗森将分享他的新回忆录《夜行者》，这是对纽约深夜的一封情书，以及他早期打碟生涯如何塑造了之后的一切。

From WHYY in Philadelphia, this is fresh air weekend. I'm Tanya Moseley. Today, Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, the two Academy Award nominated actors, discussed their new film, Eleanor the Great, Johansson's directorial debut. It's about a woman who starts passing off her deceased friend's holocaust survival story as her own. Also, Grammy winning producer Mark Ronson on his new memoir, Night People, a love letter to late night New York City, and how his early days spinning records shaped everything that came after.

他现在50岁了，仍在做DJ，但有些事情确实已经改变。

He's 50 now and still DJing, but some things have definitely changed.

以前我离开俱乐部时，会一边走一边打电话给毒贩，现在离开俱乐部时，我是在网上预约针灸师，因为我的背实在不行了。

I used to be leaving the club and, like, dialing the dealer on the way out of the club, and now I'm making an appointment with my acupuncturist online as I'm leaving the club because my back is just so jacked.

更多内容即将在《新鲜空气周末》中呈现。

That's coming up on Fresh Air Weekend.

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本消息来自《四十八小时》。一对受人爱戴的夫妇看似随机的谋杀案让加利福尼亚州戴维斯镇陷入恐惧之中。跟随记者艾琳·莫里亚蒂一起深入《丹尼尔·马什谋杀案》内部，可在任何播客平台收听。

This message comes from forty eight hours. The seemingly random murders of a beloved couple left the town of Davis, California paralyzed in fear. Join correspondent Erin Moriarty for 15 inside the Daniel Marsh murders available wherever you get your podcasts.

嘿，我是《等等别告诉我》的执行制作人迈克·丹佛斯。想体验NPR制作人的福利却不用干活？加入NPR+吧。订阅后，您将获得独家专访、喜爱的节目幕后花絮等丰富内容，既能支持NPR，又无需熬夜加班。

Hey. It's Mike Danforth, executive producer of Wait Wait Don't Tell Me. Here's a great way to get the perks of being an NPR producer without doing any of the work. Join NPR Plus. With NPR Plus, you get extended interviews, inside looks at your favorite shows, and more, all while supporting NPR and never having to pull an all nighter.

或者如果您在新闻节目组工作，也无需清晨赶工。立即注册+npr.org。

Or if you work on one of the news shows, an all morninger. Sign up at +.npr.org.

每周政坛风云变幻，您或许需要专业解读。每逢周末，欢迎收听NPR政治播客团队的每周综述。我们顶尖的政治记者将在三十分钟内，为您剖析本周重大事件及其深层影响。每周五锁定NPR政治播客，获取权威解读。

There is so much happening in politics in any given week. You might need help putting it all in perspective. As your week draws to a close, join the NPR politics podcast team for our weekly roundup. Here, our best political reporters zoom into the biggest stories of the week, not just what they mean, but what they mean for you all in under thirty minutes. Listen to the weekly roundup every Friday on the NPR politics podcast.

这里是《周末新鲜空气》，我是坦尼娅·莫斯利。一位94岁的老妇人流离失所，痛失挚友兼室友后，做出了惊人决定——她开始以第一人称讲述亡友的大屠杀幸存经历。这种欺骗行为虽道德复杂，但对埃莉诺而言，这是多年来首次真正被世人看见。

This is fresh air weekend. I'm Tanya Mosley. A 94 year old woman displaced and grieving the loss of her best friend and roommate makes an audacious choice. She begins telling her deceased friend's story of surviving the Holocaust as if it were her own. It's deceptive and morally complicated, but for Eleanor, it's the first time in years she truly feels seen.

这便是电影《伟大的埃莉诺》的剧情核心。这部既感人又幽默的作品让首次担任导演的斯嘉丽·约翰逊初读剧本时潸然泪下。为尊重历史重量，她邀请真实的大屠杀幸存者与主演同台。94岁的奥斯卡提名演员琼·斯奎布担纲主演，正迎来创作巅峰期。这位从业六十余年的老戏骨，直到2013年《内布拉斯加》才家喻户晓。如今继《塞尔玛》大获成功后，她又在《伟大的埃莉诺》中领衔主演，真实呈现九旬老人的生命历程。

That's the premise of Eleanor the Great, a poignant and humorous film that moved first time director Scarlett Johansson to tears when she initially read the script. To honor the story's weight, she cast actual Holocaust survivors alongside her lead. At the center is June Squibb, 94 years old and having the creative run of her life. The Academy Award nominated actor has worked for over six decades, but it wasn't until Nebraska in 2013 that she became a household name. Now with Eleanor the Great following her recent triumph in Thelma, she's starring yet again as the lead in a story that centers on the very real experiences of someone still navigating life in their nineties.

约翰逊本人深谙突破界限之道。这位两度提名奥斯卡的演员自幼闯荡好莱坞，既出演过《婚姻故事》等细腻文艺片，也参演过《复仇者联盟》系列全球巨制。如今她执导的这部新作探讨悲痛、宽恕与叙事权的边界。欢迎斯嘉丽·约翰逊与琼·斯奎布做客《新鲜空气》，感谢二位。

Johansson herself knows something about breaking barriers. The two time Oscar nominee has navigated the industry since she was a kid. She's built a career that spans intimate dramas like marriage story and global blockbusters like the Avengers films, and now she's directed a film that explores grief and forgiveness and who has the right to tell someone's story. Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you.

非常感谢。

Thank you very much.

朱恩，你在《伟大的埃莉诺》中展现了犀利的智慧。我们在你多个角色中都见识过这种特质，但这次是锋芒与魅力的完美结合。我想让听众感受一下。影片开头有个场景：你饰演的埃莉诺和闺蜜贝茜（丽塔·佐哈尔饰）正在选购犹太腌黄瓜，当店员冒失地说所有腌黄瓜都差不多时，埃莉诺直接让他领教了自己的看法。

Well, June, you have this sharp wit in Eleanor the Great. We have seen this in several of your roles, but there is this mix of bite and charm, and I wanna give listeners a sense of it. I wanna start with a scene from early in the film. Eleanor, your character, and her best friend Bessie, played by Rita Zohar, are shopping for kosher pickles when a stock boy makes the mistake of saying he thinks that all pickles are basically the same. And Eleanor basically lets him know what she thinks about that.

打扰一下。这是最接近犹太洁食标准的，应该就放在这里。看来是卖完了。有人吗？

Excuse me. They are the closest kosher. They're supposed to be right here. I guess we're out. Hello?

仓库里可能有存货吗？呃，这里还有其他很多腌黄瓜。说实话我觉得所有腌黄瓜味道都一样。你说什么？埃莉诺，卢，你们听见了吗？

Do do you have in the back maybe? Well, we have a bunch of other pickles right here. And, honestly, I think all pickles taste the same. Excuse me? Eleanor, Lou, Are you listening to this?

全都一个味儿。

All because of the same.

我听到了。嘿，查理。名字不错。你在这儿工作多久了，查理？

I heard. Hey, Charlie. Nice name. How long have you been working here, Charlie?

不知道，大概几周？

I don't know. Like, few weeks?

真可爱。昨天是进货日，知道我怎么记得吗？因为我们十六年来每周五都来光顾。会数到十六吗，查理？

That's cute. Well, yesterday was delivery day. And you know how I know that? Because we've been coming here every Friday for the last sixteen years. Can you count to sixteen, Charlie?

嗯，

Well,

接下来你要这么做：走到后面去。贝茜，给查理指下后面方向免得他迷路。在洗发水那里左转，沿着通道一直走到底。我知道这有点复杂，查理，但跟着我说的做，你就能找到我朋友要的腌黄瓜。

Here's of what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to the back. Bessie, point to the back so Charlie doesn't get lost. You're gonna turn left at the shampoo, go all the way down the aisle. Now I know it's complicated, Charlie, but stay with me, and you'll find the pickles that my friend needs.

明白了吗？好，去吧。

Okay? Okay. Go fetch.

刚才是我邀请的嘉宾朱恩·斯奎布与《了不起的埃莉诺》，由斯嘉丽·约翰逊执导。朱恩，这场戏确实很搞笑，但其中还有更深层次的东西——埃莉诺在被两人打发走时表现出的自我主张，这种特质贯穿了整部电影。是什么吸引你出演这个角色的？

That was my guest, June Squibb and Eleanor the Great, directed by Scarlett Johansson. June, the scene is definitely funny, but there is something more going on here because Eleanor is kind of asserting herself at the two of them being dismissed. And it's it's something that plays throughout the entire film. What drew you to this character?

我只是觉得这个角色非常真实，情感丰富，剧本里她不断展现出新的特质。所有这些都让我很着迷。而且剧本写得很好，所以我就觉得，没错，我想演这个角色。

I just felt she was such a human character and had so many feelings and and she kept revealing herself, something new about her constantly in the script. And all that was very attractive to me. And it was well written. So I just felt, yeah, I I wanna do this.

据说你签约后给斯嘉丽写了封信邀请她参与，这是真的吗？

Is it true that you wrote Scarlet a letter once you signed on to this asking her to be a part of it?

是的。当斯嘉丽对执导感兴趣时，制片人问我能否写封信，他们准备把这封信和其他材料一起寄给她，说服她来执导这部电影。我就写了。信里没写太多内容，大概就是问'你愿意来拍这部电影吗？'

Yes. When when Scarlet was interested in directing it and the producers asked me to if I would write a letter and they were going to include it in the package of letters or whatever it was they were sending Scarlet to try to convince her to direct the film. So I did. I don't think I said too much in it. I think probably something like, will you come and do the film?

然后琼提出给我一大笔现金，这笔钱我至今仍未收到。

And then June offered me a large cash sum, which I still have not yet received.

哦，我确实给了。可能是摩卡混合之类的，但不多。

Oh, I did. Maybe maybe a mocha blend or something like that, but not much.

斯嘉丽，我提过这个剧本让你读的时候哭了。还记得那个你确信必须参与其中的瞬间吗

Scarlett, I mentioned that this script made you cry when you read it. Do you remember that moment when you just knew you had to be a part

？嗯，最初是我收到了琼的求职信。是的，我对剧本一无所知，只知道琼·斯奎布想担任主角。在她职业生涯的这个阶段，会是什么呢？

of it? Well, I firstly was I I had received the cover letter from June. Yeah. I didn't know anything about the script, only that June Squibb wanted to take on a leading role. And what could it be, at this stage in her career?

我是说，琼说她拒绝了很多。我相信她肯定会的，因为你知道，对任何演员来说，投入这样的项目都是巨大的努力。我只是非常好奇。而当我第一次

I mean, June said she turns a lot down. I'm sure she must because, you know, it's such a huge effort to commit to something like this for any actor. And I was just very intrigued. And it was clear to me upon,

你

you

知道，读到它时就很清楚。好吧。这是一个遭受毁灭性损失的角色，她在四十年未居后重返曼哈顿的过渡期非常艰难。她是一位94岁的老人，感觉在当下的经济和社会环境中隐形了。然后突然间这个剧情转折，就是你之前描述的那个，埃莉诺在极度孤独与隔离中，试图与社区建立联系时撒的谎。

know, first reading it. Okay. This is, you know, a character who suffers this devastating loss, and she is having this, you know, very challenging time navigating this move back to Manhattan after forty years of not living there. And she's a 94 year old woman who feels, you know, invisible in this in the current, you know, economy and environment. And, you know, then all of a sudden this plot twist, you know, which you described earlier, this this lie that, Eleanor tells, you know, in a moment of, I think, real deep loneliness and, isolation, an attempt to connect with a community.

而那个谎言衍生出的结果如此出人意料，让人感到非常意外。在阅读剧本时能感到惊喜是很少见的。很多时候，剧本都很公式化，或者基于你熟悉的IP，你能大致猜到故事走向。但这个剧本感觉非常原创且独特。

And what grows out of that lie was so unexpected. It just felt very surprising. And it's rare to feel surprised when you read a script. A lot of times, scripts are very formulaic, or they're based on, you know, IP that you're familiar with, or, you know, you can kind of see where the story is going. But this one just felt really original and unique.

当你接受这个挑战时，你会想，好吧，这太有趣了，我要接下它。作为导演，你如何平衡这些道德问题，既要让它好笑——因为它确实很幽默——又要处理如此沉重的话题？

When you took on the challenge, you're like, okay. This is so interesting. I'm gonna do this. How did you wrestle with those moral questions as a director making it funny because it is very humorous, but also taking on such a heavy topic?

嗯，幽默感当然是编剧托里·卡门写的，她围绕她祖母构建了这个主题。她与祖母非常亲近，祖母在离家生活几十年后，作为一位年迈的女性搬回了纽约。那些犀利的台词，甚至丽塔饰演的贝西的一些话，都是她祖母的原话。我在纽约长大，也有一个犹太祖母，她说话很干练，也非常风趣。

Well, I mean, the humor certainly was written in Tory Kamen who wrote the script, you know, on it was a sort of thesis that she built around her grandmother who was a she was very, very close with, who similarly moved back to New York after many decades of living away, you know, as a much older woman. And those very biting lines, those salty lines, even from Rita's character, Bessie, or some of them are verbatim, her grandmother's words. And so I and I grew up in New York. I, you know, had a Jewish grandmother and who was also could be very dry, and she was very funny. And and, I don't know.

那种幽默感对我来说很熟悉，就像是我能理解的对话词汇。所以这是剧本自带的。当然，琼凭借她出色的喜剧节奏、表情和声音韵律，是传递这些犀利台词的最佳人选。至于敏感话题的平衡，我认为作为导演，甚至作为演员，我的工作不是评判这些角色和他们的行为。

That humor felt familiar to me. It was like dialogue vocabulary that I just got. And so that was baked in. And, of course, having June with her incredible comedic timing and, you know, her expression and her vocal cadence and, you know, she's the perfect person to be delivering those zingers. But as far as the sensitive, you know, balance and subject matter, you know, I think as a director and I think even as an actor too, it's I it's not really my job to kind of judge these characters and what they do.

如果我有任何评判，那我可能不适合讲述这个故事。我希望观众在电影结束时，如果我的工作做得好，能够放下评判，对角色——尤其是埃莉诺的欺骗行为——产生同理心和理解，明白她为什么这么做。

Or if I have any judgment, yeah, I'm probably not the right person to be supporting the story. I think it's you know, I hope that the audience, if I do my job right, by the end of the film, is able to abandon any judgment and have empathy and compassion for the characters and and certainly for Eleanor's deception and understand why she does what she does.

嗯。斯嘉丽，你特意选择让真正的 Holocaust 幸存者参演，并在群体支持场景中出现。这个想法是怎么形成的？

Mhmm. Scarlett, you made this intentional choice to cast real Holocaust survivors and and the group support scenes. How did that idea come together?

我认为这显然是必要的，因为当你开始考虑选角时，感觉找其他人会显得很假——甚至不知道具体该找什么样的人。这非常重要，而且是绝对必须的，我们要找到愿意并能参与的幸存者。我们需要创造一个环境，让他们能舒适地和我们共处几天。幸运的是，在纽约，我们有很多途径可以联系到他们。杰西卡·赫克特在片中饰演埃莉诺的女儿丽莎，她是一位出色的演员。

I think it was pretty obvious that that was necessary, because when you start to talk about casting people for it, it just felt kind of like a phony how do you wouldn't even know what I would be looking for exactly. It just felt very important, and a must, an absolute must that we identify survivors that wanted to participate and then were able to participate. And, you know, can we create an environment where, you know, those people could sit with us for a couple of days and not and not you know, in general comfort. You know, luckily, living in New York, you know, there was a lot of different roads that we could kind of go down. Jessica Hecht, who's a fantastic actor and an an extraordinary in the film, who plays Lisa, Eleanor's daughter.

她非常积极参与纽约当地的犹太社区活动，因此能通过社区关系帮我们找到几位幸存者。此外，我们还与拍摄影片的罗德夫沙洛姆神殿合作——片中埃莉诺的角色正是在那里举行成人礼。他们协助我们联系到一些人，大屠杀基金会也提供了帮助。我们就这样把消息传递了出去。

She is very involved in the Jewish community here in New York, and so she was able to identify a couple of our survivors just through the community. And also, we, you know, we worked with, Rodef Shalom, the temple that we shot the film actually, where, Eleanor's character is bat mitzvahed. They helped us to identify some some people. The Shoah Foundation also helped us out. So we we just kinda sent out the that signal.

我们非常幸运能组建起现在这个团队。明天我们将在纽约举行放映会，邀请这些幸存者与家人一同观影。想到他们将看到这部作品，我就激动不已。

And and we were very, very fortunate to be able to come up with a group that we did. And tomorrow, we'll be having our screening in New York. And, yeah, we'll be inviting our group to come and enjoy the film with their family. I'm so excited for them to see it.

因为这个群体正在日渐减少，现存者已经不多了。

Because that population is dwindling. There are not many.

消失得非常快。正因如此我们必须传承这段历史，这正是斯嘉丽和我通过本片所做的——让观众正视、铭记并理解这段往事。

Very fast, The population is dwindling. And it's I think it's also why we must keep the story. We must do it, which is what I think Scarlet and I did with this. I mean, we make people look at it and and remember and understand.

斯嘉丽提到片中为你安排了成人礼情节，为此你还专门学习了《托拉》经文。

Scarlett mentioned that, that there is a planned bat mitzvah for you in the film. You actually had to learn Torah for this role.

没错，我确实学了。

Yes. I did, and I did.

这是个令人伤感的话题。

It's a sore subject.

这是个令人不快的话题。

It's a sore subject.

因为它最终没被剪进电影里。

Because it didn't end up in the film.

琼·琼当时正梦见她的托拉经卷部分。我是说真的。然后然后我们把它剪掉了，而她表现得那么出色。你都能听出她声音里的苦涩。

June June was dreaming her Torah portion. I was. And then and then we ended up cutting it, and she was so bomb. You can hear the bitterness in her voice.

是啊。但它确实没出现在成片里。

Yeah. But it didn't make it in the film.

你得想办法让那段作为花絮放出来。

You gotta find a way to have that out there as an expert.

或者像斯嘉丽说的，迟早会流出来的。

Or Scarlett says eventually it will get out.

它会出现在B面花絮里的。

It's gonna be on the b sides.

是啊。琼，作为你几十年前引导皈依犹太教的人。

Yeah. Joan, as someone you converted to Judaism decades ago.

是这样吗？嗯哼。在五十年代。

Is that right? Uh-huh. In the, fifties.

五十年代时，你嫁给了一个犹太人。这就是原因。深入探索那个故事、那些经文以理解埃莉诺的旅程是怎样的体验？我想，那同时也是个人成长吧。

In the fifties, you married someone who was Jewish. That's why. What was that experience like diving deeper into that story, into those texts for Eleanor's journey? It's also, I would imagine, personal growth.

并非如此。我不断回想，你知道，当我坐着研读时，总会想起在俄亥俄州克利夫兰与那位出色的年轻拉比学习犹太教的日子。

It wasn't. And I I kept thinking back, you know, if I was sitting, studying it or something, and I would think back to that time when I was studying Judaism with this wonderful young rabbi in Cleveland, Ohio.

你的家乡？是的。

Where you're from? Yeah.

那段时光非常激动人心。我热爱学习的过程，也珍视与他的相遇和亲近。我们无话不谈。

It was it was very exciting. I loved it. I loved doing it. And and I loved meeting him and and becoming close to him. And we just talked about everything.

他是个极其优秀的人，还是我们的证婚人。所以我丈夫总说他娶的是我，根本不是和拉比结婚。但那确实是我生命中一段精彩而美好的篇章。

He was just a great great guy, and he married us. So that was yeah. My husband said he married me. He didn't marry him at all. But it was a very exciting and wonderful part of my life.

确实如此。

Really was.

斯嘉丽，你不久前发现自己有家人在大屠杀中遇难，对吗？

Scarlet, you discovered not too long ago that you had family lost in the Holocaust. Is that right?

是的，实际上。我参加了亨利·路易斯·盖茨的节目《寻根》，我知道有亲人在华沙犹太区遇难，但完全不清楚具体人数。我的几位家人，整整一个家族，包括年幼的孩子。查看登记册时，发现其中一位逃出来的成员战后回去了，你知道的，那时犹太区早已被摧毁。是的。

I did, actually. I I was on, the Henry Louis Gates show, Finding Your Roots, and, I knew that I had lost relatives in the Warsaw Ghetto, but I certainly didn't know how many. Several members of my family, a whole family of people, and young children. And looking at the register, one of the members, who had escaped went back, you know, after the war and after the ghetto had been destroyed, really. Yeah.

而且，你知道，他不得不回去记录下这些：他们因何而死，去世时的年龄。就像一本死亡日记。亲眼看到那些手写的姓名、年龄，孩子们死于——无论是饥饿还是腹泻——这感觉如此沉重、震撼又可怕，仅仅是捧着那份文件就让人颤抖。是的。

And, you know, had to go back and to kind of take a notice of, you know, this is what they died from. This is how old they were. You know, like a diary of that. And so to see the handwritten names, ages, I know children that they were dying of, you know, whether it was listed either starvation or, you know, diarrhea or it's so profound and and moving and horrifying just to hold that document. Yeah.

实际上我也和一些朋友聊过，他们有非常相似的经历——家人同样在大屠杀中失踪，相似之处在于这些细节被掩埋了几十年。我们这代人正在揭开尘封的往事。贝茜的故事最触动我的一点是她说'我从未告诉任何人，甚至自己的孩子'。许多幸存者带着这些故事生活，像不愿重温的噩梦。所以仍有大量未被发掘的故事，随时间湮没了。

It's and and, you know, I've spoken to friends of mine too, actually, who have very similar stories of, members of their family that they lost in the Holocaust, meaning similar in the sense that the details were kind of lost for for for decades. And that actually that my you know, friends of mine that are at the same generation as myself were uncovering the secrets of the past. I think because they're so you know, one of the interesting things I think about Bessie's story is that she says, you know, I've not told anyone, not even my own children. And I think a lot of survivors live, you know, holding those stories like a horror they don't wanna recount or relive. And so there's a lot of these stories that are still have not been uncovered and, you know, are kind of lost in time.

如果你有位经历过大屠杀的在世亲人，要知道种族屠杀基金会保存这些故事的工作至关重要。尤其现在幸存者数量正在急剧减少。

And so if you have a living relative who's lived through the Holocaust, you know, to be able to I mean, the work that the Shoah Foundation does to preserve those stories is so vital. It's so important, especially because the the population is dwindling rapidly.

你之前提到祖母。我想知道，在你祖父母去世前，是否有机会和他们聊过你的发现？

You mentioned earlier your grandmother. And I I wondered if if you had had a chance to talk with your your grandparents about what you had discovered before they passed away.

不，我从未看过。我觉得那会非常、非常痛苦。我在大屠杀中失去的亲人其实来自我母亲那边。我母亲的父亲，他的家族就住在华沙郊外。

No. I never did. I think it would have been very, very painful. My my the relatives of mine that I lost in the that were lost in the Holocaust were actually on my maternal side. My mom's father, his family was from, right outside of of Warsaw.

再说一次，我觉得他与那部分家族关系非常疏远。那几乎是种无人提及的耻辱，就像在说不要回头看。是的，我确信他若看到那些文件会崩溃的。

And again, mean, he was, I think, very removed, from that that part of his family. It was almost like a shame nobody talked about. Like, don't look back. Yeah. He would have been devastated to have seen those papers, I'm sure.

我们稍事休息。如果您刚加入我们，正在对话的是主演新片《伟大的埃莉诺》的女演员琼·斯奎布，以及首次担任导演的斯嘉丽·约翰逊。短暂休息后我们将继续讨论。这里是《周末新鲜空气》。

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with actress June Squibb, who stars in the new film, Eleanor the Great, and Scarlett Johansson, who makes her directorial debut with the movie. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. This is fresh air weekend.

美国的全球角色正在快速转变，我们将从消息来源与方式层面解析其成因。我是玛丽·路易斯·凯利，曾与间谍对话，从战地发回报道，采访过大使、将军和总统。

America's global role is shifting fast on sources and methods we explain how and why. I'm Mary Louise Kelly. I've talked to spies. I've reported from war zones. I've interviewed ambassadors, generals, presidents.

想了解全球动态及其对我们的影响？跟随我和记者同事们一起抽丝剥茧。请通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听《消息来源与方式》。

Wanna understand what is happening around the world and how it affects us? Join me and my fellow reporters as we break it down for you. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

接下来请收听NPR《贯穿线》节目。

On the next through line from NPR.

人们对此确实存在伦理与道德困境，从一开始就感到不安。

People have real ethical and moral quandaries about this. People are uncomfortable from the very beginning.

移民拘留业务。

The business of migrant detention.

在NPR应用或您获取播客的任何地方收听。

Listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

每周五，我们的播客致力于帮助您拨开信息迷雾，聚焦新闻重点。与我们一起在周五新闻综述中结束这一周。倾听那些深入报道本周重大新闻的记者们的见解。每周加入我们的周五新闻综述。收听来自NPR和WAMU的播客。

On Fridays, the one a podcast is all about helping you cut through the info fog and get to what's important in the news. Close out the week with us on our Friday news roundup. Hear from reporters who've been embedded with the biggest news of the week. Join us every week for the Friday news roundup. Listen to the one a podcast from NPR and WAMU.

June，我想稍微聊聊你的职业生涯。我听你说过，从你离开母体的那一刻起，你就知道自己想成为一名演员。我只是好奇，你当时为自己设想了怎样的职业道路？

I wanna talk a little bit about your career, June. I've heard you say that you knew you wanted to be an actor from the moment you left the womb, and I was just wondering what kind of career did you envision for yourself?

我想我一直更倾向于认为自己会活跃在舞台上。我从未将电影或电视视为职业方向，不知道为什么。但当然，我的早期职业生涯是在剧院度过的。所以，你知道，那似乎就是我的归宿。

I think I always thought more I would be on stage. I never thought about film or television as a career. I don't know why. But, my early career was the theater, of course. And so, you know, that it just that just seemed what it would be.

你在百老汇的首秀是1959年的音乐剧《吉普赛》。你因此得了个绰号，叫'百老汇最不检点的嘴巴'？

Your Broadway debut was was in the musical Gypsy in 1959. You developed this nickname, the dirtiest mouth on Broadway?

是的。因为我说话粗俗。

Yes. Because I had a dirty mouth.

好的。给我们描绘一下画面。当然，这里是NPR，所以你不能，比如说，使用

Okay. Paint a picture for us. Of course, this is NPR, so you can't, like, use

所有那些带脏话的词儿，我看起来特别快就搞定了。我当时看起来像12岁。实际上那会儿我二十多岁，二十出头或三十岁左右。而且，我看起来特别年轻。所以就像，什么情况？

all the I words was to look like very quick with the curse words. And I looked about 12. I was I think I was in my twenties when all that happened, twenties or early thirties. And, I I looked so young. And so it was like, what?

她刚才说什么？但我确实满嘴脏话。没别的词儿能形容了。

What did she say? But I I had a dirty mouth. There's no other way to describe it.

说说你是怎么走上喜剧这条路的。当你踏入戏剧界时，是否总是接这类角色？还是说你是怎么找到那种声音，发现自己喜剧天赋的？

Tell me about your path into comedy. When you stepped into theater, were you always taking on these kind of roles, or or how did you find that voice, that that comedic side of you?

是在克利夫兰剧场。那是我来纽约前待的地方。我以学生身份进去，最后成了职员，在那儿待了五年。我就是在那儿起步的。我一直跳舞，但唱歌是从那里开始的。

I it was the Cleveland Playhouse. That's where I was before I came to New York. And I went in as a student, and I ended up on staff, and I was there for five years and all. And that's where I started. I was I had always danced, but I started singing there.

他们几乎让我参演每部音乐剧里的喜剧角色。所以当我到纽约时，是和那里的一群人一起去的，大家都理所当然觉得——这就是我要走的路，后来我确实干了差不多二十年这行。

And they put me into almost every musical as the comedienne. And so when I went to New York, I went with a group of people from there, and it was just like everybody assumed. This is what I was gonna do, and this is what I ended up doing for about twenty years.

斯嘉丽，你提到在纽约长大，你祖母也住在那里。能聊聊你祖母和你童年与她相处的时光吗？这些经历对你执导这部电影有什么影响？

Scarlett, you mentioned that you grew up in New York, and your grandmother also lived there too. Can you talk about your grandmother and the time that you spent with her as a kid and and maybe how that informed you directing this movie?

噢，我和我的祖母多萝西非常亲近。她是个，你知道的，极其独立的女性。她一直独自生活了很久。对我来说，她就像个避风港。大多数周末，我都会逃到她位于地狱厨房的公寓去。

Oh, I was very close with my grandmother, Dorothy. She was a, you know, fiercely independent woman. She lived independently for forever. She was just like a safe haven for me. I would escape to her apartment, in Hell's Kitchen, most weekends.

你知道吗，她带我领略了这座城市所有的免费艺术。我们在林肯中心听爵士乐，去帝许学院看戏剧和年轻剧作家的作品。从与祖母的友谊中，我获益良多。我想她也非常享受与我相处的时光。我们无话不谈。

You know, she introduced me to all the free arts in the city. We would see jazz in Lincoln Center, and we would go to the Tisch, school and see plays and young playwrights. And, you know, I got so much out of my friendship with my grandmother. And I think and she just enjoyed me tremendously. And we would talk about everything.

真的，无所不谈。我们聊家庭关系动态。等我长大些后，我们会讨论男朋友、性、我们的身体、她的经历、衰老带来的身体变化、政治，各种话题。我们之间有一种极其特殊而深厚的友谊。读到《伟大的埃莉诺》剧本时，妮娜与埃莉诺的友情让我深受触动，因为这让我想起了与祖母相处的模式——那种在彼此陪伴中感受到的轻松自在。

You know, everything. Our fam we talked about the family dynamics. We would talk, know, later on in when I was older, I would talk to her about, you know, boyfriends, sex, our bodies, you know, her experience, aging, what she was experiencing physically, politics, all all kinds of stuff. You know, we had such a profoundly special deep friendship. You know, and I think that our friendship really, when I read the script of Eleanor the Great, I was very moved by the friendship between Nina and Eleanor because it did remind me very much of my the dynamic I had with my grandmother and the ease we felt in one another's company.

斯嘉丽·约翰逊和琼·斯奎布，非常感谢你们带来这部电影以及这次对话。

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb, thank you so much for this film and this conversation.

谢谢，非常感谢。

Thank you. Thank you.

斯嘉丽·约翰逊与琼·斯奎布的新片《伟大的埃莉诺》现已上映。音乐制作人兼DJ马克·容森的新回忆录《夜行者》将我们带回一个不复存在的纽约——在市长鲁迪·朱利安尼整顿夜生活之前，在摄像手机和酒水服务彻底改变夜店文化之前。这本书讲述了一个带着英国口音的年轻外来者，如何在九十年代俱乐部场景中找到立足之地：学习观察人群、挖掘唱片、在各类人群交汇的场所（说唱歌手与超模、滑板手与社会名流，所有光鲜又略带叛逆的人）调配完美音乐氛围的故事。按他的定义，'夜行者'与单纯喜欢夜生活的人截然不同。

Scarlett Johansson and June Squibb's new film is Eleanor the Great. Music producer and DJ Mark Ronson's new memoir, Night People, takes us back to a New York that no longer exists before mayor Rudy Giuliani's crackdown on nightlife, before camera phones and bottle service transformed the culture forever. It's a story of how a young outsider with a British accent found a place in the nineteen nineties club scene, learning to read crowds, dig through crates, and create the perfect mix of venues where the city's tribes collided. Rappers and models, skaters and socialites, everyone glamorous and a little lawless. Night people, as he defines them, are different than people who simply enjoy a night out.

他们在日落时分才展现出最好的自我，白天不过是热身。那些打碟岁月塑造了后来的一切。九次格莱美奖得主容森曾为艾米·怀恩豪斯和Lady Gaga制作过奠定职业生涯的专辑，还创作了布鲁诺·马斯的《Uptown Funk》、《一个明星的诞生》中的《Shallow》，以及《芭比》原声带等热门作品。马克·容森，欢迎回到《新鲜空气》节目。

They become their best selves once the sun goes down, and daytime is just the warm up. Those formative years spinning records would shape everything that came after. Ronson is a nine time Grammy winner, producing career defining albums for Amy Winehouse and Lady Gaga. He's also behind hits like Uptown Funk with Bruno Mars, Shallow from A Star Is Born, and The Barbie soundtrack. Mark Ronson, welcome back to Fresh Air.

非常感谢。谢谢你，塔尼娅。感谢邀请我。

Thank you so much. Thank you, Tanya. Thanks for having me.

是啊。马克，这本书读起来非常有趣，让我想到大多数人都是从舞池里体验DJ的。所以这本书真的让我们一窥DJ的实际感受。你仅凭做出的决定就能让整个房间沸腾起来，你在书中描述说没有什么能比得上第一次感受到那种冲击。带我回到你真正第一次体验到那种兴奋的时刻吧。

Yeah. You know, Mark, this was a really fun read, and it it had me thinking that most of us experienced the DJ from the dance floor. So this book really gives us a glimpse of what it's actually like for the DJ. You're able to just make the room explode by the decisions that you make, and you describe in this book how nothing compares to the first time you feel it. Take me back to the actual first time you actually experienced that rush.

好的。我第一次有那种感觉是在我母亲和继父的婚礼上，那时我大概10岁。他们在夏季租的花园里办了个非常小型简单的婚礼。尽管我继父是个非常成功的摇滚巨星，他是Foreigner乐队的成员，创作了《I Want to Know What Love Is》、《Waiting for a Girl Like You》这些歌曲，但婚礼上的音乐似乎像是事后才想到的。

Yeah. I so the first time I had that feeling, I was at my my mother's wedding to my stepfather, and I think I was 10 years old. And they had like a really small little wedding in the garden at this summer rental. And even though my stepdad was this really successful huge rock star, he was in the band Foreigner and, you know, wrote all these songs, I wanna know what love is, Waiting for a Girl Like You. It seemed like the music at the wedding was almost an afterthought.

我记得他们好像在屋里用录音机播放磁带，通过线连接到花园的音响上。然后太阳下山时，音乐突然完全停了，就像听到磁带咔哒一声断了。米克（继父）看着我说，‘马克，去放点音乐。’对于一个痴迷音乐的小孩子来说，这感觉就像全世界的责任都落在我肩上——我继父说，‘你可以控制这场婚礼的音乐。’

Like, I think they were playing like a tape deck in the house that was wired to some speakers in the garden. And then one point, as as the sun was going down, the music just kinda stopped entirely. Like, you heard the cassette, like, kinda snap. And Mick just looked at me and he was like, Ma, go put something on. And, you know, obviously, this felt like the all the responsibility of the world in my hands, like this little kid obsessed with music, like my stepdad saying like, you can control the music, you know, like at this wedding.

于是我跑进屋里，地上散落着各种磁带。我翻找着，但似乎没有合适的。然后我看到了《Timepieces: The Best of Eric Clapton》，心想‘就是它了’。即使以10岁的脑子，我看到里面有《Wonderful Tonight》这首歌，觉得‘现在放这个正合适’。

So I ran in the house and there were all these cassettes on the floor. And I remember like searching through them and there there was nothing that seemed right. And then I saw timepieces, The Best of Eric Clapton. And I was like, ah. And even in my like 10 year old brain, I saw the song Wonderful Tonight on there, and I was like, that is an appropriate song for now.

那首歌就像在说我妈妈——她穿着婚纱美极了，气氛浪漫，我就选了它。我快速用那个带自动选曲功能的八十年代疯狂录音机找到歌曲按下播放。我记得自己站在屋内透过窗户，看着继父在月光下搂着妈妈跳慢舞。书里我也写道，这段记忆有些模糊，可能被美化了些——但他搂着她，她穿着发光的婚纱。

That is like my mom my mom is looks wonderful in her dress, and it seems romantic, and I'm gonna put that on. I quickly queued it up, hit the, you know, had some crazy eighties cassette deck with an auto cue and found the song Hit Play. And I remember standing inside the house looking through the window as my stepdad pulls my mom in for like a slow dance in the moon. And you know, I even say in the book, my memory here is blurry and it might be a little Hollywooded out. But it was like, he brought her in, she's luminescent in this dress.

我就站在那里看着这一幕，微醺于‘天啊，外面放的是我选的音乐’这种感受。但更重要的是，那是我人生中第一次真切记得自己做对了某件事。当然，那一刻并不是我的‘蜘蛛侠诞生’故事，我并没有因此立志成为DJ。

And I just stood there watching this scene, slightly drunk off this feeling of like, oh my god, you know, this is my music playing out there. But also, it was this thing. It was like the first time in my life I genuinely have a memory of having done something right. So, you know, obviously, at that moment, that wasn't like my Spider Man Genesis story. I wasn't something like, now I'm gonna be a DJ.

我可能直到写这本书时才真正想明白这一点。但这确实是我童年早期最深刻的记忆之一。

I didn't even put this together probably till I was writing the book. But it really is one of my most sort of visceral early childhood memories.

你在书中区分了喜欢夜生活的人和真正的夜行者——那些在太阳落山后才会展现最佳自我的人。你是什么时候意识到自己也是夜行者的？

Well, you make this distinction between people who enjoy a night out and night people. People who kinda just become their best selves once the sun goes down. And when did you realize that you were also a night person?

我觉得这是潜移默化的过程。18岁在纽约俱乐部当DJ起步时，音乐就是我的全部热情。夜间工作是因为DJ职业性质使然。但在写书过程中，我逐渐意识到：我们那个紧密的200人小团体，每个成员都带着自己的伤痕——或许说所有人都像破碎的吸血鬼过于笼统——但那些夜复一夜出现的面孔，确实都承受不住白昼的强光。

Well, I think it's one of those things, you know, when I was 18, starting out as as a DJ in clubs in New York, music was just my passion. So I'm chasing this thing at night because if you're a DJ, obviously, you work at night. But then, as I was writing the book and I started to piece together like, wait, this really tight knit crew of maybe 200 people that we saw all the time that were all a little broken in their own way or maybe it's too much of a generalization to say everybody was like, you know, falling apart or a vampire. But there was this thing that just the people that I saw out night after night, were people that the day time was just like a little too like the bright light of day. It was like too much for people.

他们或许在逃避什么，追寻什么，渴望归属感。所以我创造了'夜行者'这个词，觉得它完美形容了我们这个有裂痕的小群体。

Maybe they were running from something, running towards something, looking for community. So I realized, you know, I came up with the term night people because I thought that applied to our little cracked community of of people.

你本身也是被夜行者抚养长大的。书中提到你母亲和继父米克·琼斯——他会在你初中时的上学日深夜叫醒你，就为询问你对Foreigner乐队混音版的看法。

You also were were raised by night people. You mentioned your mom. You mentioned your stepdad, Mick Jones. He would actually wake you up in the middle of the night on school nights, and I think you were in middle school to get your opinion on foreigner mixes. Yeah.

那些夜晚最让你难忘的是什么？

What do you remember most about those nights?

最难忘的是他如此重视我的意见。当时我痴迷音乐，而他家有录音室。看着他制作demo、学习操作录音设备的感觉太棒了——那间录音室是我最爱的地方。所以他凌晨两点叫醒我，让我听Foreigner新歌混音并征求看法的举动，简直酷毙了。

I just remember thinking it was so cool that he valued my opinion. You know, I was so obsessed with music, and he had a home studio. And the idea of being in his home studio watching him craft these demos and trying to learn how to work these tape machines and stuff was so cool. Like, his home studio was my favorite room in the house. So the fact that he would wake me up at two in the morning and be like, play me these mixes from the latest foreigner songs and ask my opinion.

我只是，我是说，我非常珍惜与他独处的时光，因为他经常不在家，外出巡演，我和他非常亲近，但那种感觉——我的意见对他真正重要——对我来说意味着全世界。

I just, I mean, I've so valued my time spent alone with him because he was out of the house and on tour a lot, and I was so close to him, but also feeling like my opinion meant anything really meant the world to me.

马克，我是说，这对你来说是正常生活。但对外国乐迷或仅仅是知道外国乐队的人来说，听到你在他混音时就在现场，其中有些后来成为了非常流行、标志性的歌曲。你还记得那些最初阶段吗？听着那些最终编织成我们生命背景音乐的作品雏形？

Mark, I mean, it's your life, so it's normal for you. But I think for any foreigner fan or even those who just are aware of foreigner, to hear that you were in the room as he was going through these mixes, some of them went on to be very popular songs, iconic songs. Are there things that you remember where you were listening to those beginning, like the beginning stages of music that would become the tapestry of of our lives?

我不记得具体歌曲了，但记得他第一次带混音回家放给我听。一周后他又放了同一首歌的不同混音，我说我更喜欢之前那个版本。那时我才九岁，操着尖细的英国口音说'我更喜欢之前那个因为贝斯声更响些'。他当时的反应是'什么？'

I I don't remember specific songs, but I think it was the first time that he brought a mix home and played it for me. And then he played me a mix of the same song, you know, a week later, and I said, I kinda like the other one. I was, you know, nine years old squeaky English accent. I kind of like the other one because it had a the bass was a bit louder. And he was just like, what?

就像'怎么会？'然后他真的去问录音师贝斯是不是调大了。从那以后他意识到我对这些细节有种奇怪的记忆力，开始重视我的意见。但确实很疯狂，当时我听的《I Wanna Know What Love Is》这些歌后来都成了经典。

Like, how? And then he checked and with the engineer, like, was the bass louder? And I think after that, he realized I had this sort of like bizarre like recall for these things. I think he started to value my opinion. But no, it is crazy to think that I was listening to as he was like, I wanna know what love is in these songs that would become classics.

虽然我说不清我的意见到底有多少被最终采纳，但那段经历对我而言无比珍贵。

Like, I I can't tell you how much of my, you know, opinion actually went into the final product, but it was so it was so important to me.

我实在无法释怀他写《I Wanna Know What Love Is》这首歌是为你母亲而作的。

I really can't get over that he wrote I Wanna Know What Love Is about your mother.

我知道。而且不，这太疯狂了。还有那首《Waiting for a Girl Like You》，他试图说服我妈也是为她写的，我妈直接拆穿'但这歌是你认识我前四年写的'，他却说'但我当时就在等待像你这样的女孩'。

I know. And and no. That's insane. And then also, the song that he wrote, Waiting for a Girl Like You, before he tried to convince my mom that he wrote it for her too, she was like, not having she's like, but you wrote that four years before you met me. But he was like, but I was waiting for a girl like you.

我觉得他只是想表现得浪漫一点之类的，但没错，她完全不买账。

I think he was just trying to be romantic or something, but, yeah, she wasn't having it.

我们稍事休息。如果您刚刚加入收听，我们正在与马克·容森讨论他的新回忆录《夜行者》，这本书记录了他九十年代在纽约担任DJ的成长岁月。短暂休息后我们将继续对话。我是坦尼娅·莫斯利，这里是《新鲜空气周末》。

Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, we're talking with Mark Ronson about his new memoir, Night People, which chronicles his formative years as a DJ in nineteen nineties New York City. We'll continue our conversation after a short break. I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is fresh air weekend.

在《生活指南》节目中，我们认真对待每一条建议。我们为您提供基于证据的推荐方案。为此，我们会采访各类话题的研究人员和专家。因为我们和您有着同样的疑问。比如：我的洗发水里究竟含有什么成分？

Here at Life Kit, we take advice seriously. We bring you evidence based recommendations. And to do that, we talk with researchers and experts on all sorts of topics. Because we have the same questions you do. Like, what's really in my shampoo?

或者该不该让孩子退出足球队？在经济不确定时期该如何处理储蓄？您可以通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听NPR《生活指南》节目。

Or should I let my kid quit soccer? Or what should I do with my savings in uncertain economic times? You can listen to NPR's life kit in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

许多每日短新闻播客只聚焦单一事件，但当下您可能需要了解更多。NPR《晨间速递》每天用不到15分钟为您带来全球三大头条新闻——因为在这个疯狂世界的任何一个早晨，没有任何单一事件能涵盖所有正在发生的事。立即收听NPR《晨间速递》播客。您描绘的画面很生动，但我想更深入探讨

A lot of short daily news podcasts focus on just one story, but right now, you probably need more. On up first from NPR, we bring you three of the world's top headlines every day in under fifteen minutes because no one story can capture all that's happening in this big crazy world of ours on any given morning. Listen now to the up first podcast from NPR. You paint this vivid picture, but I wanna go a little bit deeper into

这份工作的纯粹体力消耗，因为我想对于DJ来说，纽约市绝非胆怯者能生存的地方。如今你们只需带着电脑或存有音乐的U盘，但当年你们得拖着装满唱片的大箱子穿梭城市赶场演出。平均每场演出要带几个箱子？你们会打车吗？还是挤地铁？

the sheer physicality of your job because I would just guess that New York City is not for the faint of heart for DJs. Because today, you just have kind of like a computer or a thumb drive with your music, but back then, you had to lug these big crates of records through the city to play gigs. How many crates on average would you take to a gig? And and like where would you jump in a cab? Would you be on a subway?

需要爬楼梯搬运吗？

Would you be climbing upstairs?

天啊，我是说，所有这些东西。我每晚的标准装备大概是三个板条箱，每个装100张唱片，可能还有个塞得鼓鼓的大包，因为你要带老派迪斯科、经典老歌、老派嘻哈、新派嘻哈、节奏布鲁斯、雷鬼，还有一点浩室音乐。如果你要打四五个小时的碟，就像我们大多数晚上那样，这就是你要带的量。所以如果我在一家很酷的俱乐部演出，我会带上一帮朋友。

Oh my god. I mean, all of it. I mean, so I I the standard that I would take on any given night was probably three crates to, you know, with a 100 records each and maybe like a giant bursting bag because you're taking old school disco and classics, old school hip hop, new school hip hop, r and b, reggae, a little bit of house music. So if you're doing a four or five hour set, which is what we're doing most nights, that's what you're bringing. So if if I was playing a cool club, I had a bunch of friends with me.

大家都想进去蹭点酒水券。但如果是在不太酷的俱乐部演出，比如为了糊口在上东区酒吧接的活儿，就没人愿意跟我去了。那些夜晚，就像我写的那样，有时候离开公寓就像学校里老师讲的那个谜题——农夫要带狐狸、鸡和一袋粮食过河。对，就是那种感觉。

Everybody wants to get in, get some drink tickets. If I was playing like a not so cool club, like it's playing one of my, you know, the uptown like pay the bills gigs at a bar on the Upper East Side, nobody was coming with me. And those were the nights when, you know, I mean, I kind of write about it like sometimes leaving my apartment would be like that riddle of the teacher in school, the fox the the farmer and the bag of grain, the fox and the chicken, and the farmer has to take them across the thing. Yeah. So Yeah.

我把三个板条箱分别处理：一个抵在公寓门口防止门关上，叫电梯；一个塞进电梯里卡住门；再回去拿第三个箱子放进电梯；捡起抵门的箱子带进去；踢开卡电梯门的箱子。等折腾到楼下时已经汗流浃背，然后还要反向重复整个过程。这还是唯一有电梯的公寓，其他都是四五层无电梯的 walk-up，那才叫真的够呛。

I had three crates and put one in my front door to keep the door open, call the elevator, put one in the elevator to keep the elevator door open, go back for the third one that was in the apartment, put that in the elevator, pick up the one that was in my apartment door, bring that over on the way in, kick the one that's holding the elevator door open. All the way downstairs, I'm already breaking a sweat, and then repeat the whole thing in reverse. And that was like in the apart that was only one building where I ever had an elevator. The rest of it were like four or five story walk up. So you were really like, yeah.

还没坐上前往俱乐部的出租车，你就已经汗湿衣背了。但那时我才22岁，腰板扛得住。现在嘛...

You were you had broken a sweat before you even in the cab on the way to the club, but it's I was 22, you know, my back could take it. It's a little

现在有点不一样了吧？比如今天？

bit different now. Back like today?

是啊，真该感谢当年那个22岁的DJ。倒不是说像厨师或其他高强度职业那样满身伤痕老茧，但我两年前才发现右脚得了严重的关节炎——医生看诊时说：

Yeah. It's not very grateful to that 22 year old DJ. It's I have like, you know, listen, it's not like maybe being a chef or another intense line of thing where you're just like covered in cuts, bruises, and calluses, but I still have I only found out two years ago that I have this crazy arthritis in my right foot from twenty five years. The doctor when I went in, he was like, oh, I watched a YouTube video of you. I noticed you kind of like really aggressively tap your foot while you're DJing, and I had never thought about this because you're just tapping to the beat.

他接着说：

He's like, yeah, that happens to musicians in the fill, like even just tapping your foot for thirty years at the thing. So I I've I've named it DJ Foot cause I just like want it to be like my own. But no, it's and then, I mean, this I'm not proud of anything, but like terrible tinnitus. Have my back is completely messed up from, you know, twenty five years of headphones on. You've got your neck crooked to one side.

嗯。

Mhmm.

看起来挺酷的，对吧？那种姿态总是很有范儿。

Which looks kinda cool, you know? Like, that always is kinda the stance.

但那就是姿态。看起来很酷，但实际上对你并不好。

But It's the stance. It looks cool, but it's not it's not it's not great for you.

不过你会怀念其中的某些部分吗？我是说，现在你面前只有电脑，应该轻松多了吧？

Is there something you miss about it though? I mean, it's much easier now you just got your computer in front of you, I would guess.

但是

But

是的。在书里，我想保持日记体的风格，而且只聚焦九十年代。只有在尾声部分，我才写到用婴儿背带带着女儿在市中心闲逛，看着那些俱乐部，谈论那时用黑胶唱片与现在用笔记本电脑的对比。我的一位好友读完书后说，嘿，我很喜欢这本书，听起来你真的很怀念播放黑胶唱片的日子。

Yeah. I'd I you know, in the book, I wanted to keep it as diaristically and just really only in the nineties. And it's really only in the epilogue where I'm walking around downtown with my daughter strapped to me in the Baby Bjorn, seeing the clubs and talking about what it was like then versus now with the with the laptop versus the hundreds of records. And a good friend of mine read the book and he said he said, hey, I really like the book. He goes, it just sounds like you really miss playing vinyl.

所以你应该在今年剩下的时间里只播放黑胶唱片。不知为何，我就答应了。于是我又开始播放唱片，在布鲁克林和市中心的俱乐部演出，这真的让我重拾了对DJ的热爱。对此我很感激，但另一方面，搬运那些唱片确实很疯狂，下到地下室再上来，我以前——希望这么说没问题。

So you should just only play vinyl till the end of the year. And I don't know why. I was just like, okay. So I just I started to play records again and been playing out in clubs in in Brooklyn and downtown, and it really has been this joyous restart of my love for DJing. So I'm very grateful to in some ways, but in other ways, yeah, carrying those records around is insane going down into a basement and coming back up and like, I used to I hope this is okay.

比如，我以前离开俱乐部时会直接给毒贩打电话，而现在离开时却在网上预约针灸师，因为我的背实在受不了。但说实话，重新播放黑胶唱片的感觉太棒了，我都没意识到自己有多怀念这个过程。

Like, I used to be leaving the club and like dialing the dealer on the way out of the club, and now I'm making an appointment with my acupuncturist online as I'm leaving the club because my back is just so jacked. But I it it's been incredible playing vinyl again, actually. I did I didn't realize how much I had missed that process.

我想聊聊你调动观众的那种掌控力。你描述过让观众彻底疯狂的夜晚，那是在一家叫Sweet Thang的俱乐部。能请你读读那段吗？

I wanna talk a little bit about that power and control that you have to move people. There's this night you described where you made people go literally nuts. It was at a club called Sweet Thang. Can I have you read?

当然。某天凌晨1点，我放了一首新歌《Deja Vu Uptown Baby》。这首歌才发行几周，其歌颂家乡的副歌就已席卷纽约所有俱乐部和电台。当副歌响起，人群高喊'uptown baby, uptown baby, we gets down baby'时，声浪大到五个街区外都能听见。我调低音量，在观众合唱的节拍下切入Busta Rhymes的《Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Could See》伴奏，瞬间重构了整个空间。

Absolutely. One night around 1AM, I dropped a new cut called Deja Vu Uptown Baby. Only a few weeks old, its hometown pride refrain had already taken over every club and radio station in NYC. When the chorus hit, as the crowd chanted, uptown baby, uptown baby, we gets down baby, loud enough to be heard five blocks away. I duck the volume and drop the instrumental of Busta Rhymes, put your hands where my eyes could see on beat under their voices, remixing the room itself.

观众的大脑花了半秒钟处理刚才发生的事，随后能量如同火箭从地板直冲天花板。整整八个小节里，我们仿佛集体跃入了另一个维度。

There was a half second delay as their brains process what just happened, and then they ignited like an energy rocket from floor to ceiling. For eight bars, it felt like we'd all leapt into another dimension.

好的。当所有人都需要那半秒钟来反应时，对你来说肯定像永恒那么漫长。站在台上冒险尝试新东西，却不确定观众是否会买账，那种感觉是怎样的？

Okay. So in that moment when there's that half second delay for everybody's brains to process what just happened, that must have felt like an eternity. What does that feel like up there where you're taking a chance and trying something new? You're not sure if the crowd is actually gonna respond to it.

这...这种身体记忆太深刻了，毕竟我做过成千上万次。当你调低音量，全场都在喊'uptown baby'，那是他们此刻唯一的念头。

It's just I I it's such a visceral memory of all the times because there were, you know, thousands of times that I would do that. You would drop the volume. So the whole crowd is chanting, uptown, baby. Uptown, baby. And as they're chanting, that's all they're thinking about.

你突然切入Busta Rhymes的伴奏，他们仍在合唱。就在那电光火石间，他们必须意识到：天啊，他居然在我们唱得更嗨的歌下面叠了这首！你正在实况重构整个现场。

You drop. The bus rhyme, the instrumental. So they're still chanting. There's a split second where they have to realize, oh my god, he's dropping this other song that we love even more as we're singing under it. So you're you are literally remixing the room in there.

每当你做那种混音时，我们过去称之为文字游戏混音，就是你从一首歌的某句歌词切入。比如Snoop的《Gin and Juice》里有句歌词‘他们直到早上六点才离开’，然后你立刻接上Nas的《Uchiwali》，因为他在这首歌里提到了这句。于是‘他们直到早上六点才离开’现在就变成了Nas的歌。这样你就完成了一个从Snoop到Nas的流畅节拍转换。

Whenever you do one of those mixes, we used to call them wordplay mixes where you go from, like, the line in one song. There's a line in Snoop's Gin and Juice where we got, and they ain't leaving till six in the morning. And then on six in the morning, you drop go right into Nas Uchiwali because he's referenced that song. So they ain't leaving till six in the morning is now Nas. So you've just done this slick on beat transition from Snoop to Nas.

当然，你知道，大脑需要半秒钟才能反应过来，但节拍依然连贯。然后你就会感受到观众爆发出疯狂的反馈，所有人同时发出‘哇’的惊叹。他们可能称之为尖叫、口号，不管叫什么。整个 crowd 就像橡皮泥或培乐多，你能把他们塑造成一个整体。这感觉太不可思议了。

And of course, like, you know, it takes a half second for the brain to realize, but it's still on beat. And you just get this like crazy like blowback, this charge from the crowd all going like, oh, at the same time, you know. They could could call it the scream, the chant, whatever it is. And it's like clay or Play Doh, like the whole crowd is this thing that you're able to mold together. It's incredible.

这就是为什么我无法停止DJ的原因。无论我作为制作人还从事其他什么工作，只有这件事能给我这种独特的感觉。

It's kind of why I can't stop DJing. It's like still a feeling that I only get from this one thing no matter sort of what else I do in my work as a producer.

好的，马克。你在九十年代早中期面对的观众群体非常多元，正如你所说，有嘻哈爱好者、时尚青年和艺术家。但你也写到作为嘻哈圈里的犹太人，经常是少数白人面孔之一，并且拥有大多数DJ没有的优势——你的家庭财富和人脉。我想知道，你如何平衡作为需要证明自己的局外人，与作为已经拥有某些特权资源的圈内人这两种身份？

Okay, Mark. So the crowds that you're playing for in the early and mid nineties, it was such a blend, as you say, hip hop heads and fashion kids and artists. But you also write about being Jewish in hip hop, often one of the few white faces and having advantages that most DJs didn't with your family money and your connections. And I'm wondering how did you balance being an outsider who, on one hand, you needed to prove yourself with being an insider who already had, like, certain doors open.

是的。没错。刚开始DJ时，我来自上城区优渥家庭，继父是摇滚明星，母亲是个传奇——她活跃在纽约派对圈，是位了不起的摇滚艺术家母亲。我对这一切感到极度尴尬，但这可能更多是青少年式的羞耻，就像‘妈，你非要来我打碟的俱乐部吗？’其实所有人都觉得我母亲光临这些地下俱乐部是件超酷的事。

Yes. Yes. Of course, when I started off DJing, like, coming from this, like, nice family uptown with a stepdad who's a rock star, my mom who was just like larger than life, you know, she was out in the parties, out in the scene in New York, sort of amazing rock and roll artist mom. I was horribly embarrassed of all of it, but it's probably like more in a teenage way when you're just like, oh, mom, like, do you have to come to the club when I'm DJing? Meanwhile, everybody thought it was the coolest thing that my mom came to these like hole in the wall basements and clubs.

但确实，我曾幼稚地认为这些会让我在这个圈子里显得‘另类’。实际上这个圈子只看实力。我记得《纽约时报》早期有篇关于Funkmaster Flex的报道，里面有句话让我铭记至今——那是对我最好的评价：‘不管他家庭背景如何，他知道如何点燃现场’。要知道当时Flex可是纽约嘻哈界最重量级的人物。

But, yes, I think in this kinda immature way, I thought that that would make me like quote unquote other in this scene. Where where really like, the scene was just about showing improving. I remember Funkmaster Flex in a early article in in the New York Times, and it was like it was I would just remember being, like, this is the nicest thing anyone's ever said on me. It's like, he know it doesn't matter who his family is, where he's from, he knows how to rock a room, like, blah blah blah. And that was like, you know, obviously, Flex at the time is the absolute biggest figure in New York hip hop.

不过我必须承认自己确实拥有别人没有的优势。比如毕业时母亲给我买了唱机，音乐人继父培养了我童年的音乐志向。所以在书里我公开直面了这些特权，毕竟这是事实。但另一方面，我也拼尽了全力——这本书讲述的正是这两个侧面。

But yes, I did have advantages that other people really didn't have. Of course, my mom bought me the turntables for graduation. I had a stepdad who was a musician who nurtured like, you know, my musical wanting what I wanted to do as a kid. So I had to really deal with that and address that really out in the open in the book because, of course, I had advantages and stuff like that. But I also, you know, worked my ass off and that's kind of like the two sides of the book.

听起来这也很像你会做的事，听我说，这种紧张感似乎也促使你开辟了自己的道路，尝试不同的东西。实际上我想引用AC/DC的《Back in Black》时刻。你谈到那个冒险的瞬间，引入了其他类型的音乐，不仅是老采样，还有摇滚乐，这确实帮助你形成了自己的特色。为此，我想播放一小段《Back in Black》，让我们重温一下。请听。

It also sounded like something you did, and stick with me here, like, sounds like maybe that tension also pushed you to find your own lane to do something different. I actually think I wanna reference the ACDC back in black moment. You talk about, this moment where you took some risks, where you brought in other types of music, not just old samples, but also, like, rock music that actually helped you develop your signature offering. And to do this, I I wanna actually play a little bit of Back in Black so we remember what that sounded like. Let's listen.

这是AC/DC的经典之作《Back in Black》。马克，你讲述了这个故事，关于你如何冒险将这首歌偷偷带进东海岸最火爆的嘻哈派对。你是怎么处理它的，又怎么知道会成功？

That was ACDC's classic, Back in Black. And, Mark, you tell this story of how you took this gamble to smuggle this song into what you call the hottest hip hop party on the East Coast. What did you do with it, and how did you know it would work?

嗯，我完全不知道会成功。显然，现在听这首歌，任何有感觉的人都知道它很火。这张唱片无可争议。是的，它曾被Rick Rubin采样用于BC Boys。

Well, I I absolutely didn't know it would work. So obviously, just listening to that song now, it's like anybody with a pulse knows it's hot. It's pretty undeniable, that record. And Yeah. It it it was it had been sampled by Rick Rubin for the BC Boys.

KRS也曾为Boogie Down Productions采样过。它对嘻哈并不完全陌生，但那时没人会在俱乐部播放。有天晚上我在一家叫Spy Bar的俱乐部，那是首批超时尚、独家、超VIP的休息室之一。我记得有时在门口看到像特朗普这样的人被拒之门外，那里就是那种地方，莱昂纳多·迪卡普里奥之类的，90年代人人都想去的地方。那里的DJ播放了很多摇滚乐。

KRS had sampled it for Boogie Down production. It wasn't completely foreign to hip hop, but nobody played that record in the clubs at that time. And I was at this club called Spy Bar one night, which was this very, like, one of the first super trendy exclusive ultra VIP lounges. Like, I remember being at the door sometimes and watching like Trump get turned away, and it was just like it was this it was this place Leonardo DiCaprio, whatever, the nineties like that that was like the place everybody wanted to be. And the DJs there played a lot of rock and roll.

有一半时间我尝试进去都失败了。但有一天晚上我在那里，他们放了这首歌，所有人都疯了，在沙发上跳舞，就像罗马的沦陷。我只记得被这首歌的力量震撼了。这是一群跳舞的人，和我平时DJ面对的观众完全不同。

And half of the time I tried to get in, I couldn't get in. But one night I'm in there, and they play the song and everybody just starts going crazy and like dancing on the couches like the fall of Rome. And I just remember being hit by how powerful that record was. And this was a crowd that was dancing. It was very unlike the crowd that I DJed for.

但我开始想，天啊，我真想在Cheetah播放这首歌，那是周一晚上的大型派对，迈克·泰森、珍妮·杰克逊、蜜西·艾莉特都会去，那里真的是那个地方。所以我整个星期都在练习这个混音，可以先播放Lil' Kim和Puff Daddy的《Benjamins》，那是当时最火的歌，然后过渡到这个摇滚混音，等Biggie的verse一结束，立刻播放《Back in Black》。显然，这种俱乐部如果搞砸了，可能会有人往DJ台扔瓶子，真的不知道。那不是可以随便乱来的地方。所以我播放了，放下唱片，有那么一瞬间观众有点懵，但节奏对了，大家还在跳舞，身体还在动的时候没时间太挑剔。

But I remember starting to think, god, I really wanna play this at Cheetah, which was the big party on the Monday night, which is where Mike Tyson and Janet Jackson and Missy Elliott, it it really was the the place. So I worked out this mix all week where I could play the Benjamins by Little Kim and Puff Daddy, which was the biggest song of the time, and go into this rock and roll remix as a transition and of that song, and then write at the on the one as soon as Biggie's verse ended, play back in black and, know, obviously, like, it was the kind of club that if you if I played and fallen on my face, like, it's the kind of place something could get a bottle could be thrown at the booth, like, don't really know. Like, it wasn't it wasn't a place where you really wanted to mess around too much. So I played the thing and I dropped the record and this is split second where it's like the crowd is just kinda like, But the it's it's on beat, everybody's still dancing, and there's no chance to kinda be too judgmental when your body's still moving.

对吧？感觉很好。等到riff第二次响起，整个俱乐部爆发了。有种不可思议的感觉，观众们都知道他们在做一件本不该做的事，就像在Cheetah听到这首歌本不应该。

Right? And it feels good. And by the second time the riff came around, the club just kind of erupted. Like, there was this incredible feeling, like, the crowd, like, just everyone knowing they were doing something they kinda weren't supposed to be doing. Like, this song that we weren't supposed to be hearing at Cheetah.

本应是演奏它的场合，却变成了人们随之起舞。那一刻真是美妙绝伦。从那时起，它让我解脱束缚，变得更加勇敢。有趣的是，混搭风潮不久后便兴起了。

Was supposed to be playing it. They weren't supposed to be dancing to it. And it was just this great moment. And from that moment on, it did free me up and made me a little more brave. And it's funny because, you know, the mashup era came quite soon after.

现在回想起来，在俱乐部里反复播放同一首歌似乎有点老套——当然，为什么不呢？但在当时，这绝对是开创性的。正是这种方式帮我找到了自己的音乐风格和身份认同，大概也是从那时起，我开始接到各种疯狂的演出邀约，因为我在做别人都没做过的事。

So it's almost a little ho to think of, like, playing back and back in a club. Like, of course, why not? But at that moment, there was nothing like it. But it did help me find my own sound and identity, and that's kind of when I really started to, I guess, get, like, crazy gigs and offers because I was doing something that nobody else was doing.

你认为DJ最不可饶恕的罪行是什么？我先说——我特别讨厌DJ播放那种喇叭声，就像...

What are some of the biggest DJing sins in your opinion? I'll just say, like, I hate when a DJ does that plays that horn like

哦，真的吗？

Oh, really?

就像是...

It's like

防空警报。

The air.

天啊，克拉克森警报。没错！那种感觉就像...有点像电影里额外加的爆炸特效，对吧？

Oh my god. The Klaxon. Yes. There's something about that that's sort of like, it's a little bit like an extra explosion in a in a film. Right?

这感觉有点像，好吧。如果音乐本身没能让我充分感受到情绪，那就不需要靠刺耳的喇叭声来强行激发对音乐的本能反应。不过我也挺喜欢那种空气喇叭的声音。我是说，它传达出某种意味，很有纽约电台的感觉。确实。

It's like kind of like, alright. If you're not making me feel it enough with the music, like, don't need the horns to be bullied into having a visceral emotion to this music. But I also I also kinda like the air horn. I mean, it says something about it, like, feels very New York radio. Yeah.

是的。其他那些...我之所以提到它们，是因为这本书的标题叫《如何在九十年代的纽约当DJ》，本身就带着点戏谑意味——毕竟没人真能回到九十年代的纽约当DJ了。但书里有很多内容我觉得在任何时代都可能派上用场。比如在那个年代，我那个年代，一晚重复播放同一张唱片可是大忌。

Yeah. I the other ones are, like and I sort of talk about them because, you know, the book I said how to be a DJ in nineties New York City is the title because it's a little bit tongue in cheek. No one's ever gonna be a DJ in nineties New York City. So but there are a lot of things in this book that I feel like at any era might might sort of like help out. So there's things like, back in that era, my era was a cardinal sin to really play a record more than once in the night.

就算是大热金曲，要是一晚上放五次，人们就会觉得'你这DJ水平不行，只能靠反复播热门曲子撑场子'。还有条规矩是暖场时绝不能放热门唱片——事实上暖场阶段根本不该放任何大热曲目。我记得有次给Funkmaster Flex暖场...

Like, if there was a huge hit to play it five times throughout the night, it was like this thing, like, oh, you're not good enough to like to to rock a night with only playing the big records once. There was a bit of that sense. There was this thing, like, never play all the big records when you're the opener. In fact, you don't play any big records when you're the opener. I remember DJing

就像电台热播的那种。

Like radio hits.

对，任何夜店热门曲目都算。那次暖场我紧张得什么都不敢放，基本避开了过去七年所有热门歌。想想看，在空荡荡的舞池里放爆款曲子，就像试图在柴火还没干透时就点火。

Like any yeah. Any of the big club records. Like, I remember opening for Funkmaster Flex and being so nervous to, play anything. Like, I'd like, I didn't play anything from literally the past seven years or something. And then the idea of, like, you know, playing huge records to an empty room, like, trying to ignite a room before it's ready.

在气氛没到位之前。所以时机把握太关键了。这需要你特别敏锐，本质上是要懂得观察人群行为。这种感知力...是能教会的吗？

Before the room is ready. So timing just is such a thing. Like, you have to know it. You have to be so attuned, which means you kinda have to be attuned to human behavior, and it's a sense. It's is it something that can be taught?

这就是为什么有'阅读房间'这个说法——虽然不确定是否源自DJ文化。观察舞池动态，感知现场氛围...很大程度上这就是你和观众之间的互动。就算在全球最棒的夜店用顶级音响设备，如果观众不买账，没有建立起那种默契，一切都白搭。说到底，这才是成就完美之夜的关键。

It's I mean, that's why they call it, you know, the expression reading a room. Like, it's like, I don't know if it literally goes back to DJing, but it's like reading the floor, reading the room, reading the dance floor. It's like, there's so much of it that's just, yes, it's the interplay between you and the crowd. There's you could be in the best nightclub in the world with the best sound system. It doesn't matter if you'd if it doesn't if the crowd isn't with you and you don't have a relationship with them, that's that's what it's that's what it all comes down to, certainly for a great night.

马克·容森，能与您交谈真是莫大的荣幸，非常感谢您带来这本有趣的读物。

Mark Ronson, it's such a pleasure to talk to you, and thank you so much for this fun read.

非常感谢。

Thank you so much.

马克·容森的新回忆录讲述了九十年代纽约俱乐部场景中的DJ生涯，名为《夜行者》。周末版《新鲜空气》由特蕾莎·马登制作，执行制作人是丹尼·米勒。我是托妮娅·莫斯利，与特里·格罗斯共同主持。

Mark Ronson's new memoir about DJing in the nineties New York club scene is called Night People. Fresh Air weekend is produced by Theresa Madden. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Moseley.

美国每年约有千人在监狱中死亡，其中许多人尚在候审阶段。

Every year in The US, about a thousand people die in jail, many of them awaiting trial.

这不是别人需要解决的问题。我们每个人都面临在狱中死亡的风险。

This isn't a problem that someone else has to deal with. We all are at risk for dying in jail.

在本专题系列中，我们将探讨为何人们会死于狱中以及如何预防此类事件，请收听NPR与WBUR联合制作的播客《此时此地》。

In a special series, we'll look at why people are dying in jail and how to prevent it from happening on Here and Now Anytime, a podcast from NPR and WBUR.

在美国，国家安全新闻常让人感觉与日常生活相距甚远——遥远的战争、模糊的冲突、闭门外交。在我们的新节目《消息来源与方法》中，NPR驻外记者为您带来真实人物的故事，帮助理解远方事件为何与本土息息相关。请通过NPR应用或任意播客平台收听。

In The US, national security news can feel far away from daily life. Distant wars, murky conflicts, diplomacy behind closed doors. On our new show, sources and methods, NPR reporters on the ground bring you stories of real people helping you understand why distant events matter here at home. Listen to sources and methods on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

你关心世界上正在发生的事情。通过NPR的《世界现状》播客保持信息畅通。短短几分钟内，我们将带你了解全球各地的故事。你可能会听到世界冲突的最新进展，或是全球事件对你咖啡价格的影响。请收听

You care about what's happening in the world. Stay informed with NPR's state of the world podcast. In just a few minutes, we take you to stories around the globe. You might hear the latest developments in world conflicts or about what global events mean for the price of your coffee. Listen to

NPR的《世界现状》播客。

the State of the World podcast from NPR.