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这里是《新鲜空气》节目。
This is Fresh Air.
我是坦尼娅·莫斯利。
I'm Tanya Moseley.
在新电影《邪恶女巫：正义篇》中有一个瞬间，当被称为邪恶女巫的埃尔法巴不再向误解她的世界为自己辩护，而是纯粹依靠自身力量存在时。
There's a moment in the new movie Wicked for Good when Elphaba, the so called wicked witch, stops defending herself to a world that has misunderstood her and simply exists on her own power.
今天的嘉宾辛西娅·艾瑞沃以极具个人深度的方式生动演绎了这一时刻。
My guest today, Cynthia Erivo, brings that moment to life with a depth that is also personal.
在《邪恶女巫》第二部中，艾瑞沃捕捉了埃尔法巴从被排斥者到掌握自身叙事权的蜕变过程，这段旅程也是她在新回忆录《只是更多》中探索的主题。
In part two of Wicked, Erivo captures Elphaba's evolution from outcast to someone who claims her own story, a journey Erivo also explores in her new memoir, simply more.
书中追溯了她如何摆脱他人对她作为女性、黑人艺术家以及常被指责'太过头'的定义。
The book traces how she learned to shed other people's definitions of her as a woman, as a black artist, and as someone who was sometimes told she was too much.
艾瑞沃最初凭借《紫色》在百老汇崭露头角，因饰演西莉一角获得托尼奖。
Arevo first broke through on Broadway in the color purple, winning a Tony award for her portrayal of Sealy.
她后来因饰演哈丽特·塔布曼获得奥斯卡提名，并在《天才少女：艾瑞莎》中饰演艾瑞莎·弗兰克林，为此获得包括艾美奖在内的多项提名。
She went on to earn an Oscar nomination for her portrayal of Harriet Tubman and later portrayed Aretha Franklin in genius Aretha, for which she was nominated for several awards, including an Emmy.
艾瑞沃还是一名融合福音、灵魂乐和电影流行风格的录音艺术家。
Arevo is also a recording artist, blending gospel, soul, and cinematic pop.
去年的《邪恶女巫》与新片《邪恶女巫：正义篇》改编自获得托尼奖的百老汇音乐剧。
Last year's wicked and the new film wicked for good are adapted from the Tony award winning Broadway musical.
新片延续了埃尔法巴与格林达的故事，探索当她们命运分道扬镳后，邪恶女巫神话如何成型的过程。
The new film continues Elphaba and Glinda's story exploring what happens after their fates diverge and the myth of the wicked witch takes hold.
欢迎辛西娅·阿里沃回到《新鲜空气》节目。
And Cynthia Arrivo, welcome back to Fresh Air.
你好。
Hello.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
你知道吗，一边观看《魔法坏女巫》和《善良女巫》，一边阅读你的回忆录，这种感觉非常奇妙。
You know, there is something extraordinary about watching Wicked and then Wicked for Good and reading your memoir at the same time.
两者之间有太多相似之处。
There's so many parallels there.
你是什么时候意识到你的个人生活与艾法巴这个角色之间的联系如此紧密的？
When did it click for you that your personal life and that connection to Elphaba were so close?
我想在我开始演奏、演唱和学习这些音乐后不久，就隐约感觉到这种联系了。
I think I had an inkling that there was a connection soon after I started doing the music, singing the music, learning the music.
但我觉得真正明白这一点是在拍摄电影时，当我扮演这个角色时，我才意识到，哦，这比我想象的要贴近我的生活得多。
But I think it really actually clicked when I was making the film, when I was playing the character that I realized, oh, this is this is a lot closer to home than I had imagined.
但我没有意识到有这么多真实的相似之处，比如与父亲的关系，身处不被真正接纳的环境中的感受。
But I didn't realize that there were so many sort of real parallels, the relationship with her father, the relationship to being in spaces that don't really include you.
所有这些都是在经历的过程中逐渐意识到的。
All of that sort of dawned on me as it was happening.
所以你在电影中看到的那些情感都是非常真实的，因为它们某种程度上是即时的感受。
So the the feelings you see in the movie are very real feelings because they're sort of immediate.
是啊。
Yeah.
在那段时间里，是否有某个特定时刻让你突然意识到这一点？
Was there a particular moment during that time period where it hit you?
你说，等一下。
You said, wait a minute.
这就是我。
This is me.
我们正在拍摄，这听起来可能很奇怪，因为那是个非常小的瞬间。当时在拍内莎·罗斯即将被送去学校，她们的父亲让艾法芭照顾内莎的场景。
We were shooting and this is gonna sound so strange because it's it's such a small moment, but we were shooting the scene when Nessa Rose is about to be sent off to school and their father asks Elphaba to take care of Nessa.
我记得他对她说话相当严厉，那一刻我的感受就像是个顿悟时刻。
And I remember he speaks to her quite harshly and the feeling that I got in that moment sort of was a click moment for me.
正是在那一刻我意识到，哦，这段关系很复杂。
It was it was that moment that I realized, oh, this relationship is a complicated one.
嗯。
Mhmm.
就在那时我突然想到，哦，我认出这种感觉了。
And that was when I sort of thought, oh, I recognize that.
最有趣的是，《魔法坏女巫》的故事已经伴随你多年了。
What's so interesting about that is that the story of Wicked had been living with you for years.
多年。
Years.
多年。
Years.
我是说，我们谈论的是超过十年
Mean, we're talking over a decade
大概如此。
or so.
我第一次发现它是在我20或21岁的时候。
The first time I discovered it was when I was 20 or 21.
是的。
Yeah.
实际上，导演Jean Chu在试镜时问过你，是的。
Director Jean Chu actually asked you during the audition Yeah.
Elphaba对你意味着什么？
What does Elphaba mean to you?
是的。
Yeah.
你当时给他讲述了反抗地心引力的故事，那是你几年前学过的一首歌，是的。
And you told him the story of defying gravity, which was a song that you had learned several years before Yes.
当你在学校的时候。
When you were in school.
是的。
Yes.
你在回忆录《简单更多》中写到这一点，我想让你读读你当时对John说的原话。
You write about this in your memoir, simply more, and I want you to read exactly what you said to John.
能请你读一下吗？
Can I have you read it?
这就是我在戏剧学校时沉浸其中的那首曲子。
This was the exact piece of music I escaped into when I was in drama school.
如果我那天过得很糟，或是痛苦地意识到自己在那里显得多么格格不入，一个无法与他人建立联系的局外人。
If I was having a really bad day or was miserably aware of how odd I felt there, an outsider who couldn't connect with the others.
我会和我的朋友迈克尔躲在一间音乐教室里。
I would hide out in a music room with a friend, Michael.
我们会一起唱这首歌。
We'd sing this together.
我们会一直待在那个小房间里，直到上课前的最后一刻，放声高歌。
We'd stay in that little room until the very last minute before we had to go back to class, belting our hearts out.
这首歌给了我庇护，在我生命中最脆弱的时期唱着它。
This song gave me refuge, singing it during a very vulnerable time in my life.
这些歌曲让我感到安全。
These songs made me feel safe.
那也是你第一次大声说出自己感到多么疏离。
That was also the first time that you shared out loud how alienating I felt.
学校是为你而设的。
School was for you.
确实如此。
Very much so.
是的。
Yeah.
是什么让你在那个时刻选择展现脆弱并倾诉出来？
What was it about that moment that it came to you to to actually be vulnerable and and tell?
而且，那也展现了你和艾尔菲巴之间的情感纽带。
And, also, that was a show of the connection between you and Elphaba as well.
是的。
Yeah.
我在那个房间里感到非常安全。
I felt really safe in that room.
我觉得约翰会理解的。
I I felt like John would understand it.
我也明白，要真正与这个角色建立联系，让人们真正理解我了解并理解这个角色、这个人是谁，我必须展现脆弱，必须分享我认为这个角色所经历的感受。
And I also knew that in order to really connect with this character, to really help people understand that I knew and understood who this character was, who this person was, that I had to be vulnerable, that I had to share the experience that I felt that this character had been through.
我觉得这个角色需要那种我有时害怕展现的脆弱，虽然我现在已经更擅长处理了。
And I felt like this character needed the vulnerability that I can sometimes be afraid of sharing or being I'm better at now.
但在那一刻，我只想到，如果我不诚实地表达我的感受、过去的感受，或者这首音乐带给我的感受，那么我认为我遗漏了一些重要的东西。
But in that moment, I just thought, if I'm not honest about what I feel or have felt or how this music has made me feel, then I think I'm leaving something on the table that is important.
那
That
你在皇家戏剧艺术学院的那段经历，对你来说是非常艰难的时期。
experience that you had at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art, that was a very difficult time for you.
可能是最艰难的时期之一。是的。
Maybe one of the the most difficult times Yeah.
在你整个
In your entire
是的。
Yeah.
我只是觉得人们真的不理解我。
I just felt like people really didn't understand me.
与此同时，虽然不理解，也没有真正给我留太多空间，一旦做出判断，那个判断就会持续下去。
And at the same time, whilst not understanding, didn't really make very much room for me either that it it was sort of once a judgment was made, that judgment stayed.
我觉得自己很幸运，在那段时间里有一两个人真正关心我、照顾我，但那段经历确实很艰难。
I think I was lucky enough to have one or two people during that time who really looked out for me, who cared for me but it was a tough experience to be there.
所以我真的觉得我不适合那里。
So I really didn't I just didn't think I fit.
而且当时有很多来自现在已经不在学校的人的奇怪而微妙的冒犯行为。
And and lots of strange interesting microaggressions from people who now are not at the school.
但那是一段既有趣又艰难的时光。
But it was it was an it was an interesting tough time.
他们对你说了些什么？
What were they telling you about yourself?
或者你觉得他们是怎么看待你的？
Or how how did you think they perceived you?
我想他们认为我不专注且麻烦。
I think they thought I was unfocused and troublesome.
我想他们认为我不在乎自己的工作。
I think they thought I didn't care about my work.
那里有很多人...有个人特别对我的身材发表了评论，说我肌肉太发达，应该停止去健身房。
A lot of people there was sometimes well, there's one person who in particular who made a comment about my body, it was too muscular, I needed to stop going to the gym.
在那一刻，我只是想，好吧，我喜欢我现在的身材。
And and at that point, I just was like, well, I like the body I'm in.
所以当听到一个本应指导我的教师说出这种话时，简直令人震惊。
And so to have someone who was teaching, who was supposed to be, you know, mentoring me say that was just it was horrifying.
你曾是个年轻女孩。
You were a young girl.
你已经长大了
You had grown up
在伦敦南部。
in in South London.
你必须工作，是的。
You had to work Yes.
你半工半读完成学业，问题在于你和其他学生不同，你还有其他工作。
Your way through school, and that was part of the issue was that you, unlike other students, had other jobs.
你当时在做伴唱。
You were working as a background singer.
在剧院酒吧里当伴唱。
Background singer in the bar at a theater.
是的。
Yeah.
我周末还在衬衫领带店打工。
I I was I was working in a a shirt and tie shop as well over the weekend.
所以我当时工作特别忙。
And so I was like, I was working a lot.
事情是这样的：我刚到那里时，得到了一个为乐队伴唱的机会，报酬足以支付我全部学费。
And that happened because when I first got there, was given the opportunity to go and do backing vocals for a band that would have paid for my tuition in its entirety.
当我申请两周假期时，他们给了我最后通牒：要么留下放弃演出，要么离职去演出，但不能再回来工作。
And when I asked if I could take the time off, which was two weeks, I was given an ultimatum either to stay and let the gig go or leave and take the gig, but I couldn't come back.
多么艰难的处境啊，是的。
What an impossible position Yeah.
身处其中。
To be in.
而我...我不想离开，所以是的。
And I I didn't want to leave, so Yeah.
我...我留下来了。
I I stayed.
你在那里期间，只得到些小角色，但你写到有个时刻被要求为另一位歌手代唱
During your time there, you were given these bit roles, but there's this moment that you write about where you were asked to sing for another singer
嗯。
Mhmm.
那位歌手得了喉炎。
Who had laryngitis.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但他们没让你上台。
But you weren't asked to be on stage.
没有。
No.
是在后台。
It was backstage.
在后台，然后他们会让你对口型。
Backstage, and then they would lip sync you.
你做到了。
And you did it.
是啊。
Yeah.
这是我开始学会原谅自己的时刻之一，因为我以前对自己感到非常愤怒。
It's one of those moments that I I've started to learn to forgive myself for because I felt so previously, felt so mad at myself.
所以，我想我内心有一部分感到有点羞愧，因为我以那种方式放弃了自己的声音。
So, I guess there's a part of me that's a little bit ashamed that I would sort of give up my voice in that way.
但这也是为什么我如此强烈地保护自己使用声音的方式。
But it's also why I'm vehemently protective of the way I use my voice.
我绝不会对任何事情都轻易说好。
I do not say yes to everything at all.
这需要很大的决心，唱歌对我来说必须有意义才行。
It takes a lot for me it has to mean something for me to sing and has to make sense.
我再也不会把我的声音那样交给别人了，因为那感觉就像是有人夺走了本该属于我的礼物，然后给了别人。
I will never give my voice to someone like that again because it felt like someone removing a gift that was meant for me and and giving it to someone else.
那一刻感觉真的很糟糕。
And it just felt it in the moment, really awful.
我记得当时感觉非常不对劲。
And I remember feeling really wrong.
感觉就是不对。
It felt wrong.
我想播放一段《魔法坏女巫》最新一集的片段。嗯。
I want to play a clip from the latest installment of Wicked Mhmm.
因为我们发现《绿野仙踪》里的奥兹巫师是个骗子。
Because we learned that The Wonderful Wizard of Oz is a fraud.
是的。
Yes.
但在这部电影里，你挺身对抗压迫动物的奥兹。
But in this film, you're standing up to Oz who is oppressing the animals.
我想播放这段片段来说明这一点。
And I wanna play this clip to illustrate this.
你饰演艾尔菲巴，爱莉安娜·格兰德饰演格琳达。嗯哼。
It's you as Elphaba, Ariana Grande as Glinda Mhmm.
还有杰夫·高布伦饰演的奇妙奥兹巫师。
And the wonderful Wizard of Oz played by Jeff Goldblum.
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
他正在告诉你为什么反抗是徒劳的。
And he's telling you why efforts are meaningless.
没错。
Right.
我们来听听。
Let's listen.
艾尔菲巴，我一直想念你。
Elphaba, I've missed you.
我们不能重新开始吗？
Can't we start again?
是的。
Yes.
请。
Please.
就说‘是’。
Just say yes.
不。
No.
你以为我不想吗？
Don't you think I wish I could?
我愿意付出一切回到从前，回到我
I would give anything to go back to a time when I
真正相信你很了不起的时候。
when I actually believe that you are wonderful.
一位了不起的奥兹巫师。
A wonderful wizard of Oz.
没有人比我更信任你。
No one believed in you more than I did.
但时光无法倒流，我们也不能前进——除非所有人都知道我所知道的。
But there's no going back, and we can't move forward not until everyone knows what I know.
而一旦他们知道了真相，他们
And once they know the truth They're
是不会相信的。
not gonna believe it.
你怎么能这么说？
How can you say that?
我不知道。
I don't know.
我只是实话实说。
I'm just being straight with you.
我可以告诉他们我一直都在撒谎，说到我脸色发青（请原谅我这么说），但这不会有任何改变。
I could tell them that I've been lying to them till I'm, forgive me, blue in the face, but wouldn't make any difference.
他们永远不会停止相信我。
They're never gonna stop believing in me.
你知道为什么吗？
You know why?
因为他们不愿意。
Because they don't want to.
这是我今天的嘉宾，辛西娅·艾利沃，与杰夫·高布伦和阿丽亚娜·格兰德在《魔法坏女巫》慈善企划中的对手戏。
That's my guest today, Cynthia Erivo in scene with Jeff Goldblum and Ariana Grande and Wicked For Good.
你们都是倒着拍这段的
You all shot this back to
倒着拍的 是的。
back Yes.
《魔法坏女巫》与《魔法坏女巫》慈善企划。
Wicked and Wicked For Good.
对吧？
Right?
不是背靠背的。
Not back to back.
是同时进行的。
At the same time.
同时进行的。
At the same time.
是的。
Yeah.
在演绎这两个相互关联的故事线时，你是否需要刻意压抑某些情感？其中一个故事线是从另一个发展而来的。
Did you have to hold anything back emotionally as you were moving through these two different story lines that one kind of evolves from the other?
是的。
Yeah.
这非常有趣，因为有时我们已经拍摄了第一部电影的大部分内容，但远不能说快完成了。
It it was really interesting because some some time I think we had shot quite a bit of the first movie, but not nearly enough to say we'd almost finished.
差得远呢。
No way.
我们离完成还早得很。
We were nowhere near.
然后我们就完全投入到第二部的拍摄中了。
And then we had then we were sort of all the way into the the second.
我们有点像在两部电影之间来回切换。
And we were sort of tandeming between the two movies.
幸运的是，有些日子里你会清楚角色此刻的状态，并对他们的经历和如何过渡到第二部电影有某种后见之明。
So there were days where luckily, you would sort of know where the character was at this point and you'd have some sort of hindsight for where they had come from and what they had been through in order to move into the second movie.
但有些时候你其实是在猜测，是的。
But there were some times where you're sort of guessing really Yeah.
因为你还没拍某个场景，只能假设这个场景会是这种感觉。
Because you hadn't shot a certain scene, you're just sort of assuming that the scene is gonna feel this way.
你是怎么应对这种情况的？
How did you navigate that?
你直接接受这个想法了吗？
Did you just surrender to the idea?
是的，你不得不这样。
Yeah, you have to.
你必须这样做。
You have to.
而且我觉得我们俩——我和阿里——实际上都做了非常具体的决定，关于我们的外貌、走路方式、穿着打扮，甚至包括我们身上的气味。因为我总是会为我扮演的每个角色找到一种专属气味。
And also, I think both of us actually, Ari and I, both of us sort of made really specific decisions about how we looked, what we walked in, the clothes we were wearing, so that even the scents that we were wearing, because I always find a scent for each character that I play.
你说的气味是什么意思？
What do you mean by scent?
香水。
Perfume.
我总会为每个角色找到一种专属气味。
I always find a scent for each person.
但这次，我为每个时期的艾法芭都找到了不同的气味。
But this time, I found a scent for each Elphaba.
所以年轻的艾法芭和年长的艾法芭用的是完全不同的香水。
So Elphaba who was young wore a very different scent to Elphaba who was older.
所以气味记忆很大程度上与如何让我们瞬间回到某个时间点有关。
And so scents memory was a lot to do with how to sort of click back into where we are in time.
哦，这真有趣。
Oh, this is so interesting.
是啊。
Yeah.
你能稍微慢一点吗？
Can you slow down for a moment?
好的。
Yeah.
嗯。
Yeah.
首先，你是怎么想到这个主意的？你选择了哪种气味？
First off, how did you come to that idea and what sense did you choose?
我很多很多年前就开始这么做了。
I started doing this a long years, years and years ago.
第一次尝试时，我记得是和哈丽特一起做的，用的是雪松木和薰衣草，应该是基础油调配的精油，不是香水，因为我想让它感觉像是她能发现并亲手制作的东西。
The first time I did it, I think I did it with Harriet and hers was like cedarwood and lavender, I think it was, but like essence with a base oil, not a perfume because I wanted it to feel like something she could find that she could, you know, discover, make.
我希望它闻起来像是大地的馈赠。
I wanted it to feel like it was off the earth.
后来我意识到这对我影响有多大，于是就一直用这种方式塑造我的角色。
And then I realized how powerful it was for me and so I kept doing it with with my characters.
所以对于艾法芭，我知道他们的气味必须与众不同。
So with Elphaba, I knew that they had to feel different.
所以年轻的Elphaba，我尝试过一些浓郁的花香调，比如晚香玉、玫瑰、百合这些非常深沉的花香。
So Elphaba who's younger, I sort of messed around with like big florals, like really deep florals, tuberose, rose, lilies.
然后我把它和烟草乌木混合在一起。
And then I mixed it with like a tobacco oud.
有时候我发现一种香味不太对，就会回头重新调配，直到真正找到那个会说'就是它了'的配方。
And sometimes I find a scent and it's not right and I go back and I go and it's a real it something will say, this is the one.
哦，这太有趣了。
Oh, this is so fascinating.
那么Elphaba最终用的是哪种香味呢？
So for Elphaba for good, what was her scent?
她的香水，你绝对想不到。
Hers, you'll never believe me.
是一款叫'女巫魔法'的香水。
But it it was it was a scent called witchy woo.
哦。
Oh.
当我发现它时，我觉得这绝对行不通。
Which when I found it, I thought there's no way this is going to work.
这名字也太直白了。
It will be way too on the nose.
你在哪里找到它的？
Where did you find it?
我当时住在英国的Soho Farmhouse，他们那里有个小礼品店。
I was staying at Soho Farmhouse in The UK and they have this little sort of gift shop.
在商店后面，他们有几款香水，我看到这款叫'女巫魅惑'，我当时就觉得我肯定不会喜欢。
And in the back, they have a few perfumes and I saw this scent, it said Witchy Woo and I thought I'm not gonna like this.
我肯定不会喜欢的。
I'm not gonna like it.
这名字太直白了，绝对不行。
It's too on the nose, there's no way.
所以我往手上喷了一点，立刻就觉得不太确定。
So I sprayed some on my hand and immediately I wasn't convinced.
但你知道香水会变化的吧？
But you know how perfume changes?
嗯哼。
Mhmm.
你的身体，你的体味，你自己的天然油脂。
Your your Your body body, your scent, your own The natural oils.
天然油脂。
Natural oils.
那种香味。
The scent.
于是我走开了，但又不断回头闻它。
So I go away and I I keep going back to it.
我的身体好像在说，不，这香味真的很棒。
My body is like, no, this is a really good scent.
它出现在那里是有原因的。
There was a reason it was there for you.
回去拿吧。
Go back for it.
所以我回去找这种香味。
So I go back for this scent.
所以我穿的是女巫香水，这次我穿的是成熟的乌木香。
So it's I I'm wearing witchy oo and I'm wearing and this time, like a grown oud.
这帮助你在不同情感音符间保持清醒？是的。
And this helped you keep your mind around the different emotional notes Yes.
在两者之间？没错。
Between the two That's right.
电影。
Movies.
对。
Yeah.
你觉得这和你的联觉有关吗？
You think that has something to do with because you have synesthesia.
联觉。
Synesthesia.
意味着你唱歌时能看到颜色？是的。
Which means you can see color when you sing Yeah.
音乐。
The music.
当...对。
When yeah.
音乐。
Music.
你觉得这两者之间可能有关联吗？
Do you feel like this might be connected?
我确定。
I'm sure.
我觉得我的感官变得更敏锐了。
I think my my senses are heightened.
所以我知道我的嗅觉特别灵敏，而在音乐方面，显然也有一种超常的感知力。
So I have I know I have a heightened sense of smell and then obviously with music, there's a heightened sense there.
所以我在想或许吧，但我之前从没这样思考过。
So I think I think maybe, but I've never thought of it that way.
我一直把它视为接触每个角色的另一个切入点。
I've always thought of it as just another access point to each of the characters.
这就像是角色在向我透露他们是谁的又一部分。
It's just sort of the character's way of telling me another bit about who they are.
嗯。
Mhmm.
你知道的，是什么在召唤他们，什么是他们DNA里的一部分。
You know, what what calls to them, what what is part of their DNA.
这是我在创作过程中逐渐发现的另一件事。
And and that is another thing that I think just I've sort of discovered along the way.
因为每次都是不同的。
Because it isn't the same ever.
我从未为任何角色重复穿同一套服装。
I've never worn the same thing for any character.
这个角色需要相当严格的训练，包括身体和情感两方面。
There's some pretty intense training that goes into this role, both both physical, emotional.
是的。
Yeah.
我是说，甚至在你为试镜训练的时候
I mean, when you were even training to audition
对。
Yeah.
听说你会在游泳时练习唱歌，这是真的吗？
Is it true that you would you would try to sing while you were swimming?
没错。
Yes.
我会一边游泳一边唱歌，游几圈唱一会儿，然后跑步时也唱。
I I I would sing and sort of I do laps then sing, and then I'd run and then I would sing.
我只是想让歌声融入我的身体。
I just wanted it to be in my body.
你知道，这个理念就是——如果我在做剧烈运动时还能唱歌，那么静止时歌声自然就会在那里。
You know, it's it's the idea that if I'm doing something that's strenuous and I can sing it whilst I'm doing the thing that's strenuous, when I'm standing still, it'll just be there.
这样我就不需要太费力就能唱出来。
I won't actually have to work that hard for it to be there.
我们聊聊你的成长地吧。
Let's talk a little bit about where you grew up.
你在南伦敦长大。
You grew up in South London.
南伦敦。
South London.
斯托克韦尔。
Stockwell.
斯托克韦尔。
Stockwell.
是的。
Yeah.
你和妈妈还有妹妹一起长大。
You grew up with your mom and your younger sister.
对。
Yes.
有和你相似的声音吗？
Are there voices like yours?
你是指唱歌和说话的声音？
As in singing and speaking?
是的。
Yes.
我妹妹唱歌确实很好听。
My sister can really sing.
她要是知道我这么大声说出来会恨我的，但我觉得她的歌声很美。
She'll hate me for saying it out loud, but I think she she has beautiful singing voice.
我妈妈，我觉得我的表演天赋来自她的母亲，但她热爱唱歌，热爱音乐。
My mom, I think my acting ability came from her mom, But she loves to sing, and she loves music.
你家里经常有音乐吗？
Was there a lot of music in your home?
一直都有。
All the time.
一直都有。
All the time.
你们会一起唱歌吗？
Were you guys singing together?
是的。
Yeah.
我和我妹妹会一起合唱。
Me and my sister would harmonize together.
我妈妈会在车里唱歌，我们就跟着一起唱。
My my mom would sing in the in the car, and we would sing along.
圣诞节的早晨特别有趣，因为从早上6点开始，一直持续到深夜。
Christmas morning is really really fun because it starts at like 6AM in the morning and then just goes till the middle of the night.
你什么时候发现自己的声音能打动人心？
When did you know that your your voice could make people feel?
我五岁左右就隐约感觉到自己声音的特别，因为那时我被邀请在圣诞庆典上演唱《平安夜》。
I had an inkling that something was happening with my voice at about five because I was asked to sing Silent Night for a nativity.
我想他们让我唱是因为我完全不害羞。
I think it was because I was just not shy that they asked me to sing it.
我不知道他们是否知道我会唱歌，也许他们知道，但我自己当时完全没意识到。
I don't know that they knew I could sing, or maybe they did, but I had no idea.
我只是因为人们的反应而高兴唱歌。
I was just happy to sing the song because of people's reaction.
我知道这能让人快乐。
I knew that it made people happy.
这点我很清楚。
I know that much.
你知道的，这是基本常识。
You can you know, it's basic.
你看到人们微笑、鼓掌、站起来，他们很开心。
You see people smiling, people clap, people stand, they're they're happy.
我把这两者联系起来了。
And I connected it with that.
但我想大概是在12岁左右，那时人们开始不断要求我唱歌。
But I think it was when I was maybe about 12 when people kept asking me to sing.
比如在学校操场上，午餐时间其他孩子会说，嘿，你能唱歌吗？
Like, I was on the school playground and it'd be lunchtime and other kids would say, hey, can you sing?
你能唱这个吗？
Can you sing this?
嗯。
Yeah.
对。
Right.
然后我会唱出来，他们会叫来其他朋友一起听，大家会说辛西娅要唱歌了，你知道的。
Then I would sing it and they would get their other friends and they go and sing, Cynthia's gonna sing, you know.
后来开始有才艺表演，他们会问我愿不愿意唱歌。
And then talent shows started coming up and they would ask if I would sing.
就在那时，我意识到我的声音可以做些什么。
And that's when I knew that something that I that I could do something with my voice.
我想我真正明白它能打动人心的时候，大概是在18岁左右。
I think when I really understood that it could make people feel I wanna say it was about 18.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我在一个叫特洛伊酒吧的地方唱歌，那里有点像开放麦。
I sang at a place called Troy Bar that which is like an open mic.
那是家小餐馆，每周二或周四晚上都有开放麦之夜。
Little it's like a little restaurant that had an open mic night every Tuesday or Thursday.
有一天我决定上台唱歌，现场安静得连针掉地上都能听见。
And I, one day, decided to get up and sing and you could hear a pin drop.
你还记得当时唱了什么歌吗？
Do you remember what you sang?
我唱了一支叫Flowetry乐队的《Say Yes》。
I sang Say Yes by a band called Flowetry.
噢，当然记得。
Oh, of course.
是的。
Yeah.
你能唱一小段吗？
Would you sing a little bit?
这要求过分吗？
Is that asking too much?
不。
No.
不。
No.
爱上你花了我不少时间，但我始终知道你会是我的光。
Loving you has taken time, taken time, but I always knew you would be my light.
我认出了内心的悸动。
I recognize the butterflies inside me.
今晚一切都会变得明朗。
All the sense is gonna be made tonight.
今晚，你只需说声愿意。
Tonight, all you gotta do is say yes.
你只需说声愿意。
All you gotta do is say yes.
别否认你的感受。
Don't deny what you feel.
让我为你宽衣，宝贝。
Let me undress your baby.
敞开你的心扉。
Open up your mind.
休息一下吧。
Just rest.
我正要让你知道。
I'm about to let you know.
你让我如此如此如此如此如此如此。
You make me so so so so so so so.
你让我如此如此如此如此如此。
You make me so so so so so so.
是无伴奏合唱那样的吗？
Was it a cappella like that?
一开始是这样，然后我记得那位钢琴师，名字叫奥斯卡，为我弹奏。
It started that way and then the pianist, I remember his name was Oscar, played for me.
每次我回到那个地方，他就会直接开始弹这首歌。
And every time I went back to that place, he would just start the song.
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你就直接开始这首歌。
You just start the song.
所以我从来都没得选择。
So I didn't ever have a choice.
他总是就这样唱这首歌。
He'd always just sing this.
我们稍作休息吧。
Let's take a short break.
如果您刚刚加入我们，我正在与辛西娅·艾瑞沃对话。
If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo.
她在《魔法坏女巫》中饰演艾法芭，并撰写了一本名为《简简单单更多》的新回忆录。
She stars as Elphaba in Wicked For Good, and she's written a new memoir called simply more.
短暂休息后我们将立即回来。
We'll be right back after a short break.
我是坦尼娅·莫斯利，这里是《新鲜空气》节目。
I'm Tanya Moseley, and this is Fresh Air.
本信息由Wise提供，这是一款全球资金管理应用。
This message comes from Wise, the app for using money around the globe.
使用Wise管理资金时，您将始终获得中间市场汇率，且无隐藏费用。
When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees.
加入数百万用户行列，访问wise.com。
Join millions of customers and visit wise.com.
条款与条件适用。
Ts and cs apply.
本信息来自播客《费拉·库蒂：无所畏惧》。
This message comes from the podcast Fela Kuti, fear no man.
在这个动荡不安的世界里，音乐能做什么？
In a world that's on fire, what can music do?
《电台实验室》的主持人贾德·阿比姆罗德讲述了尼日利亚音乐家的故事，他创造了一种名为Afrobeat的抵抗性新音乐语言。
Radio Lab's Jad Abimrod tells the story of the Nigerian musician who created a new musical language of resistance called Afrobeat.
在任意播客平台均可收听。
Listen wherever you get podcasts.
我是《美国生活》节目的艾拉·格拉斯。
This is Ira Glass of This American Life.
你知道我们的节目吗？
Do you know our show?
好的。
Okay.
不管怎样，我都要向你介绍一下。
Well, either way, I'm gonna tell you about it.
我们制作的故事希望能吸引你
We make stories that hopefully pull you in
一开始会有有趣的瞬间、情感和处于意外情境中的人物，然后
at the beginning with funny moments and feelings and people in surprising situations, and
你就会想知道接下来会发生什么，无法停止收听。
then you just wanna find out what is gonna happen and cannot stop listening.
没错。
That's right.
我说的是那些让你错过约会的故事。
I'm talking about stories that make you miss appointments.
这里是《美国生活》，你可以在任何地方收听我们的播客。
This is American Life wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是凯莉。
It's Carrie.
我们的联合主持人坦尼娅·莫斯利和我将制作一期年终特别节目《新鲜空气Plus》，回答听众关于节目和我们个人的问题。
Our cohost, Tanya Moseley, and I will be doing an end of the year Fresh Air Plus bonus episode, answering listener questions about the show and about ourselves.
您现在就可以将问题发送至freshair+@npr.org，注意plus要拼写完整。
You can send the questions now to freshair+@npr.org with plus spelled out.
地址是freshair+@NPR.org。
That's freshair+@NPR.org.
你好。
Hi.
我是莫莉·塞夫·内斯伯格，《新鲜空气》的数字化制作人。
This is Molly Seve Nesberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.
这位是
And this is
泰瑞·格罗斯，节目主持人。
Teri Gross, host of the show.
我的工作之一是撰写每周通讯。
One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.
我是这份通讯的忠实读者。
And I'm a newsletter fan.
我每周六早餐后都会阅读。
I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
通讯包含本周所有节目、员工推荐，莫莉还会精选档案库中的时效性内容。
The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
读起来很有趣。
It's a fun read.
这也是唯一一个我们会独家透露下周内容的地方。
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.
所以请访问whyy.org/freshair订阅，每周六早上查收莫莉的邮件。
So subscribe at whyy.org/freshair, and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
你并非由父亲抚养长大。
You didn't grow up with your dad.
嗯哼。
Mm-mm.
你对父亲知之甚少。
You don't know much about your dad.
是的。
No.
但我其实认识他。
And I and like, I know him.
我见过他。
I've met him.
我母亲给了我们空间和选择权来培养这段关系。
My mom gave us the space and and the choice to grow a relationship.
她给了他发展关系的机会。
He she gave him a choice to grow the relationship.
但他从未真正把握住这个机会。
But he never really took the opportunity.
我能请你读一段书中关于他的内容吗？
Can I have you read a section from the book where you talk about him?
这其实是一首诗。
It's actually a poem.
是的。
Yes.
关于我父亲的趣事。
Fun facts about my father.
我不知道他多大年纪。
I don't know how old he is.
我不知道他的生日。
I don't know his birthday.
我不知道他的职业。
I don't know his profession.
我不知道他父母的名字。
I don't know his parents' names.
我不知道他住在哪里。
I don't know where he lives.
我没有他的电话号码。
I don't have his phone number.
简而言之，我对他几乎一无所知。
Suffice it to say, I really don't know much about him at all.
我16岁那年，因为一张交通卡的争执，他把我独自丢在伦敦地铁站后就离开了。
I was 16 when he left me alone in a London underground station after an argument about a transit pass.
当他说不想再出现在我们生活中时，我震惊地站在原地。
When he told me he didn't want to be in our lives anymore, I stood there in shock.
我的大脑一片空白。
My head was empty.
然后我转身离开。
And then I walked away.
第一步就像撞上一堵砖墙，先是疼痛，接着是剧痛。
The first step felt like running into a brick wall, pain, then agony.
我的情绪如洪水般决堤而出。
My emotions opened like floodgates.
我哭得几乎无法呼吸，视线模糊不清。
I cried so hard I could barely breathe, could barely see.
直到我发现自己走错了火车站台，才意识到一直在往反方向走。
It was only when I ended up on the wrong train platform that I realized that I had been walking in the wrong direction.
就在我走向正确站台时，他出现了。
Just as I made my way to the right platform, there he was.
他就在我面前，径直朝我走来。
He was in front of me, walking straight in my direction.
我屏住呼吸。
I held my breath.
也许他会道歉。
Maybe he was going to apologize.
也许这场争执会就此消失。
Maybe this argument would just disappear.
还没等我纷乱的设想凝结成希望，他就这样与我擦肩而过。
Before my cascading scenarios could solidify into hope, he passed right beside me.
他没有眼神接触，一言不发。
He made no eye contact, said nothing.
我什么都不是。
I was nothing.
从那一刻起，对他而言，我已不复存在。
From that moment forward to him, I had ceased to exist.
那是我最后一次和他说话的日子。
It was the last day I ever spoke with him.
我对父亲知之甚少，但确实知道一些事。
I do not know much about my father, but I do know a few things.
他的名字，他会吹口哨，总是穿着一件皮夹克。
His name, that he can whistle, that he always wore a leather bomber jacket.
我们俩的门牙之间都有缝隙。
We both have a gap between our two front teeth.
而带着某种奇妙的讽刺，因为上帝爱开玩笑，我父亲会唱歌。
And by some strange stroke of irony, and because God likes playing jokes, my father can sing.
哦，辛西娅，首先感谢你朗读这段文字。
Oh, Cynthia, first off, thank you for reading that.
你听过你父亲的声音吗？
Have you heard your father's voice?
听过。
Yes.
那声音很好听。
It's a good voice.
他有一副悦耳的嗓音。
He's got a lovely voice.
我跟他学会了吹口哨，这就是为什么所有这些事都如此奇怪，因为我们有太多相似之处。
I learned to whistle from him, which is why all of those things are so strange because we have so many similarities.
你的写作风格非常实事求是。
You wrote in a very matter of fact way.
是的。
Yes.
对你来说写这个容易吗？
Was it easy for you to write that?
现在写这个很容易。
It was easy to write that now.
我想如果你十年前让我写这个，那会非常困难。
I think if you'd have asked me to write it, I don't know, ten years ago, it would have been really difficult.
但我觉得我也不确定。
But I think I don't know.
我现在处于一个真正接受的状态。
I'm in a real, like, place of acceptance, I think.
还有一种奇怪的冷漠感。
And a strange apathy as well.
你能描述一下那种冷漠感吗？
Can you describe that apathy?
可以。
Yeah.
我只是...我并不希望他受到伤害，但你知道，我并不期待什么重大的和解。
I just I don't I don't wish him harm but I you know, I it's not like I'm waiting for some grand resolution.
我对现状其实挺满意的。
I'm sort of okay with it being exactly what it is.
我完全没有开始一段关系的意愿。
I have no desire to start a relationship.
我也没有修复关系的想法。
I have no desire to mend a relationship.
这件事其实并不怎么占据我的思绪。
It doesn't really occupy my thoughts that much.
但达到这种状态确实需要时间。
But it took time to get to that Yes.
是的。
Yes.
确实如此。
It did.
因为曾经有段时间你是希望能向他证明自己的。
Because there was a time where you wanted to be able to show him.
当然。
Of course.
我是辛西娅·艾利沃。
I am Cynthia Erivo.
我是《你会怀念这一切》。
I am You're gonna miss this.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
是啊。
Yeah.
这种状态无法持续。
It doesn't sustain.
如果做你热爱之事或擅长之事的目的是为了让他人在乎你，为了证明你值得被爱，为了证明你配得上被爱，这种状态是无法持续的。
If the point of doing the things you love or the point of doing a thing that you're good at is to make someone care about you, is to prove that you are meant to be loved, is to prove that you are worthy of being loved, it doesn't sustain.
因为事实上，最重要的爱是自爱。
Because really and truly, the most important love is that of yourself.
它必须首先来自于你自己。
It has to come from you first.
那种想要证明自己的驱动力曾一度非常棒。
And it was a great driver that sort of wanting to prove was really fantastic for a time.
那真的很棒。
It was really great.
在你的职业生涯中，是否有某个特定时刻，比如当你获得某个角色或演奏某首曲子时，你会想'我爸爸会听到或看到这个'吗？
Was there a particular moment in your career where maybe you you got a role or you paid a piece of music and you thought, my dad's gonna hear this or see this?
我想我
I think I
可能直到《海王》那会儿，我才觉得'哦，也许他会看到并意识到自己错了'。
think maybe up until the the Harrier of it all, I think that's when I thought, oh, maybe he'll see it and think, oh, I messed up.
也许我会联系。
Maybe I'll contact.
就在我有那个想法的时候，我意识到，我不确定这对我是最健康的选择。
And and I think it was when I had that thought that I thought, I don't know that this is the healthiest thing for me.
我想那其实是我开始接受心理治疗的时候。
I think that's actually when I started therapy.
因为...这行不通。
Just because well, it doesn't work.
当不是为了那个目的时，事情反而会快乐得多。
And it's so much more joyful when it's not for that.
是啊。
Yeah.
我不想剧透，但《邪恶女巫》里有一条关于父亲的故事线。
I'm not gonna spoil it, but there is a storyline thread in Wicked For Good Mhmm.
艾法芭的父亲在其中非常突出。
Where Elphaba's father is very prominent.
没错。
Yeah.
你在拍摄过程中有没有某个时刻联想到自己的经历？
Did you ever have a moment while you were filming that where you were thinking about your own experience?
说实话，基本上整个拍摄过程都在想。
Oh, I think most of the way through it, to be honest.
我觉得真正让一切达到高潮的是第一部电影里，我们在所谓的奥兹尘舞厅里，那段独舞变成双人舞的时刻。
I think the time when it really sort of all came to our head is that in the first movie where we're in that sort of we call it the Ozdust ballroom, that solo dance moment that turns into a duet, that's when it all sort of comes to a head.
所以当你看到我眼中流下的泪水，那不是排练好的。
So when you see those tears falling out of my eyes, that was not was not rehearsed.
那不是计划中的。
That was not planned.
只是自然而然发生的。
It just happened.
是的。
Yeah.
这种疗愈效果对
It's how therapeutic that can be for
你来说确实如此。
you Yeah.
通过实际表演出来的方式。
To to actually act it out.
是啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
我本没计划这样，但只要你敞开心扉，这种情况就可能发生。
And I wasn't planning for it to be, but as long as you're open to it, that that that can happen.
这些时刻确实能帮助你突破一些可能未曾察觉需要突破的东西，或是让你经历过的往事浮出水面，成为连接当下情感的桥梁。
That that these moments can really help to move through some things that you maybe didn't know were there to move through, or that the things that you've been through can come to the surface and you can use them to connect to the moment.
确实。
Yeah.
我们稍作休息吧。
Let's take a short break.
如果您刚加入我们，我正在与辛西娅·艾利沃对话。
If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo.
她在《魔法坏女巫》中饰演艾尔法巴，并撰写了一本名为《简单更多》的新回忆录。
She stars as Elphaba in Wicked For Good, and she's written a new memoir called Simply More.
这里是《新鲜空气》节目。
This is fresh air.
你有没有遇到过这种情况：去药店取药，原以为只要20美元，结果却要200甚至上千？
You ever get to the pharmacy and you're expecting your medication to cost $20, but instead it's 200 or a thousand?
然后你会想，等等。
And you're like, wait.
真的吗？
Really?
你确定吗？
Like, are you sure?
是不是搞错了？
Is this some kind of mistake?
本周《生活锦囊》播客主题：当处方药费远超预期时该怎么办。
This week on the Life Kit podcast, what to do when your prescription costs way more than you expected.
您可以通过NPR应用或任何播客平台收听。
You can listen in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是泰瑞·格罗斯。
It's Teri Gross.
如果你想收听《新鲜空气》节目对电影制作人、喜剧演员、音乐人的采访合集，或是工作人员精选等内容。
If you'd like Fresh Air interview collections with filmmakers or comics or musicians or staff favorites and more.
请订阅《新鲜空气+》。
Sign up for Fresh Air Plus.
这将让你在开车、备餐和跑步机上的时光更有趣，还能每日收听无广告的《新鲜空气》播客节目。
It will make those car rides, meal prep, and the treadmill more entertaining, and you'll get daily Fresh Air podcast episodes ad free.
了解更多并订阅请访问+.npr.org。
Learn more and sign up at +.npr.org.
特朗普总统承诺加沙和平计划将结束以色列与哈马斯的战争，并为中东带来和平新时代。
President Trump promised the Gaza peace plan would end the war between Israel and Hamas and bring a new era of peace to the Middle East.
我们花了三千年才走到这一步。
This took three thousand years to get to this point.
你能相信吗？
Can you believe it?
但停火一个月后，进展陷入停滞。
But a month into this ceasefire, progress is stalling.
为什么如此脆弱？加沙人民的未来又将如何？
Why is it so fragile, and what comes next for the people of Gaza?
现在请收听NPR《早间新闻》播客的《周日故事》栏目。
Listen now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR.
你小时候知道哈丽特·塔布曼的事迹吗？
Did you know about Harriet Tubman growing up
我做到了。
I did.
在布列塔尼。
In Brittany.
我做到了，但我们只是没有获得关于她的足够信息。
I did, but we just didn't get enough information on her.
就像教科书里的小小篇幅，幸运的话可能占一页纸。
It's like a small little thing in the textbook that takes up they may be one page if we're lucky.
嗯。
Mhmm.
如果幸运的话。
If we're lucky.
但当你深入挖掘她们的身份，了解更多时，你就会意识到她的人生有多么丰富。
But when you do further excavation of who they are, when you learn more, you realize just how full a life she led.
你是怎么决定的？因为我们没有...你能够挖掘现有的研究资料，但你必须塑造一个真实的人物。
How did you decide because we don't have you you you were able to dig through the research that is available, but you had to create a person Yeah.
仅凭一张黑白照片和所有这些零碎信息。
Out of what is like just a black and white photograph and all of these little bits of information.
我很幸运，因为当我扮演她时，刚发现了一张她20岁时的照片。
I was lucky because when I was playing her, an image had just been on surfaced of her as a 20 year old.
这和我们之前看到的照片完全不同
And it was totally different to the picture that we
对。
Right.
这很新鲜，因为我们之前只见过她
That was new because we had only had her as
作为一位年长女性的形象。
an older woman.
作为一位年长女性。
As an older woman.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这让我产生了一些疑问。
And so that sort of struck questions for me.
我很幸运，因为我的导演凯西·莱蒙斯和编剧格雷格帮助我梳理了她生命中那些我们从未谈及的重要时刻。
I was lucky because my director, Casey Lemons, and the writer, Greg, had sort of helped guide me through the major moments in her life that we never have spoken about.
它们都在那里。
And they're there.
就在那里。
It's there.
是的，我们知道哈丽特·塔布曼是位英雄，她拯救了许多人，解放了许多奴隶，包括她自己。
Yes, we know that Harriet Tubman was a hero and saved many people and freed many slaves including herself.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们不知道的是，她做这些事时才27岁。
What we didn't know is that when she was doing it, she was 27.
她当时还是个年轻女子，而且心碎欲绝。
She was a young woman, She was also brokenhearted.
她把爱人留在了身后。
She had left her love behind.
她回去找他时，发现他已和别人在一起。
She went back to get him and he was with someone else.
我们并不清楚实情。
We don't know that.
经历这样的心碎后，她为何还要继续？
Why would she continue after that heartbreak?
因为她无法安息。
Well, because she couldn't rest.
她继续前进的原因，是她觉得只有所有人都获得自由时，自己才算真正自由。
The reason she continued is because she didn't feel like she actually had obtained freedom until other people were free.
她觉得自己必须能与家人共享自由，才算真正获得自由。
She didn't feel like she had obtained freedom until she could share it with her family.
而且她身体也不好。
Also, she was not well.
她会突然昏厥。
She would blackout.
她患有类似发作性睡病的症状。
She had like narcolepsy.
其实我认为她可能患有癫痫。
I actually think she might have had epilepsy.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但那些经历会带来幻象。
But those episodes would bring visions.
嗯。
Mhmm.
我了解到她会唱歌。
I learned that she she sang.
她是一位将军。
She was a general.
她领导了一场女性选举权运动，当时根本没人想给黑人女性选举权。
She led a woman's suffrage movement at a time when really no one wanted any suffrage for for black women specifically.
在她30岁左右完成地下铁路工作后
All after she had had her her run through the underground rail road, that sort of was done by the time she was 30
嗯。
Mhmm.
我们某种程度上认为这就是她直到...是的。
Which we sort of think of as what was happening until she was Yeah.
在她晚年时期。
In her old older age.
但实际上，她45岁时就已经是将军了。
But actually, by the time she was 45, she was general.
你饰演的这些女性角色，我是说...是的。
These women you also play, I mean Yeah.
她们也都目标明确。是的。
They're also so purpose driven Yes.
某种程度上，我对艾瑞莎也有同样的感觉。
In a way that, like, I I also feel this way about Aretha.
嗯。
Mhmm.
嗯。
Mhmm.
她确实是。
She was.
是的。
Yes.
她确实是。
She was.
关于艾瑞莎，你了解到什么出乎意料的事吗？
Were there any surprises you learned about Aretha?
她一次又一次地不断尝试。
She kept trying again and again and again.
最初的时候，她其实想走类似爵士乐大师们的路线。
That that at the very beginning, she wanted to to sort of go in the same route as like the jazz greats.
但那并不适合她。
And it didn't work for her.
有点像埃拉和黛安娜·华盛顿那种风格。
And it was sort of what about the Ellers and the The Diana Washington.
黛安娜·华盛顿。
Diana Washington.
这与她的嗓音特质不符，也与她的音乐历程不相称。
And it it just didn't make sense for the voice that she had, also for the history of music that she had.
但她却如此努力地想要融入一个本不适合她的轨道，因为这个轨道本质上是由她自己开创的。
But she was trying so hard to fit herself into a lane that wasn't made for her because essentially, the lane that was made for her was made by her.
嗯。
Mhmm.
但她从未流露出丝毫放弃的念头。
But there was never an inkling of her going, like, giving up.
我从不觉得她有过其他选择。
I never felt like there was an option for her.
她的选择是：好吧，这条路行不通。
The option was, okay, this doesn't work.
那么现在怎么办？
Well, now what?
还有什么方法可行？
What else works?
是的。
Yeah.
这对我来说真的很震撼，即使现在回想起来，那依然是我从她身上感受到的特质。
That for me was like a real like, even when I think about it now, was like, that's the feeling I get from her.
实际上，她与音乐之间发生的转变，我认为具有真正的灵性意义。
And and that actually something about the transformation that happens with her and music, I think is a real spiritual one.
我觉得她会完全沉浸在音乐中，就像进入出神状态，直到完成创作才重新回到现实。
I think she would disappear into music almost like she was in a trance and then come back again when she was done.
你当时有没有感到不自在？
Was there any self consciousness for you?
因为你用了她的真实声音
Because you used her real voice
确实有。
I did.
是的。
Yeah.
在这部剧中演绎艾瑞莎的音乐，没错。
In the series to take on Aretha's music Yeah.
而且用你的声音以那种方式诠释她。
And and embody her in that way with your voice.
对。
Yeah.
我很好奇她能做到哪些事。
I was curious about the things that she could do.
我意识到这位女士拥有的技巧，我的意思是，可以说世上没有第二个像她这样的人。
I realized that there is the skill that this woman had is, I mean, tantamount to know there was no other person like her.
没有第二个...没有第二个像她那样的嗓音。
There's no other there's no other voice like hers.
没有人能像她那样歌唱。
There is no other person who sings like her.
因为她用嗓音创造的效果，是我从未在其他人那里听到过的。
Because what she was able to do with her voice is unlike anyone else's that I've ever heard.
我想播放阿蕾莎的演唱给你听。
I want to play you singing from Aretha.
我们来听听看。
Let's listen.
是啊。
Yeah.
阿蕾莎出了名的注重隐私。
Aretha was notoriously private.
没错。
Yes.
而且，我觉得最有趣的事就是看阿蕾莎·富兰克林的采访。
And, also, like, think the funniest thing to do is to watch Aretha Franklin interview.
哦，
Oh,
这是我最爱做的事。
it was my favorite thing to do.
这是我最爱做的事。
It was my favorite thing to do.
这是我最爱的，因为她太出色了。
It was my favorite because she's so brilliant.
她太棒了。
She's so good.
她太擅长把所有事都藏在心里了。嗯哼。
She's so good at keeping everything to herself Mhmm.
而且还在给予你一些东西。
And still giving you something.
不过我想和你探讨的是，我想知道你从中领悟到了什么。
The point that I wanna get to though with you is that, like, I wonder what you walked away with with that.
因为长久以来，你知道，我认为我们作为粉丝，总是想从那些给予我们灵感的人那里
Because for the longest time, you know, I think we, as fans, we want from from those who give us inspiration
通过
through
他们的艺术。
their art.
我们想知道一切。
We wanna know everything.
我们想知道它的源头。
We wanna know the source of it.
是的。
Yeah.
她非常明确，这就是我要分享的。没错。
She was very much like, this is what I'm going to share Yes.
就是这样。
And this is it.
没错。
Yes.
甚至当谈到她的人生故事时也是如此。
Even when it came down to the story about her life.
是的。
Yes.
那么对于你这样一个扮演过她的人来说
And so for you as someone who has played her
对。
Yeah.
而那些笔记，有些确实不太好。不。
And those notes, some of them not really good No.
尤其是关于她童年的部分。
Especially about her childhood.
是啊。
Yeah.
在思考该说什么、不该说什么以及人们对此有何权利时，你从中领悟到了什么？
What did you walk away with in thinking about what you tell and what you don't tell and what rights people have to it.
这一切都非常重要。
That that it's all very important.
你决定保留给自己的部分是没问题的。
That what you decide to keep for yourself is okay.
虽然他人总想了解一切，但你的一生并非都要供人消费。
That there is sort of a want from others to know everything, But your life, all of your life isn't for everyone's consumption.
每个行走于世的人，都没有人能完全了解其全部。
Each person walking through the world, no one knows everything about that person.
没有人能做到。
No one.
甚至连最亲近的人也不行。
Not even the closest people to you.
有些东西你可以留给自己，因为它们只属于你。
There are things that you get to keep for yourself because they're just yours.
我认为艾瑞莎没有分享她生活的全部，这其中的美妙之处在于我们得以了解她作为艺术家的一面。
And I think the wonderful thing about Aretha not sharing absolutely everything about her life is that we got to we got to know her as the artist.
我们不可避免地必须尊重作品本身。
That we inevitably have to respect the work.
有时候这就足够了。
And and sometimes that should be enough.
有时候这就够了，因为这就是她的本意，这就是她想给予的。
Sometimes that's enough because that's what she was that's what she wanted to give.
我想我们有时会对艺术家要求更多，但实际上艺术家的职责就是创作艺术。
And I think we sometimes we sometimes yearn for more from from artists, and actually, the artist's job is to create art.
我们应该满足于让他们专注于创作。
And we should be okay with letting them do just that.
你知道吗？
You know?
这是你不得不自己领悟的道理吗？
Is that a lesson that you you had to come into yourself?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得我比艾瑞莎更像个敞开的书，但我也乐于保留一些属于自己的东西。
I think I think I'm more of an open book than than Aretha, but I'm also okay with keeping some things for myself.
而且，我觉得我特别喜欢过去那些艺术家、演员和明星们会为自己保留一些东西的方式。
And also, I I think I love the the way artists and actors and stars and celebrities of old would keep some things for themselves.
现在要做到这点更难了。
That's harder to now.
对吧？
Right?
是啊。
Yeah.
但这确实更难了，因为现在有太多分享渠道的诱惑让人想分享一切。
But but it is harder to because the temptation is to share everything because there's so much access to ways to share everything.
但选择权在自己手里。
But there is a choice.
你可以选择分享一些，保留一些。
You can choose to share some and keep some.
我认为这样很好，因为如果什么都分享出去，就什么都不剩了。
And I think that it's okay to have because if you share everything, there's nothing left.
我觉得保留一点神秘感挺好的。
I think a little mystery is okay.
你懂我意思吗？
You know?
我觉得让一些人去猜测某些事情，可能猜对也可能猜错，这样挺好的。
I think it's okay for some people to guess a couple things and maybe get it right and maybe not.
明白吗？
You know?
因为这样总会留下些什么。
Because then there's something left.
我们稍作休息吧。
Let's take a short break.
如果您刚刚加入我们，我正在与辛西娅·艾利沃交谈。
If you're just joining us, I'm talking with Cynthia Erivo.
她在《魔法坏女巫》中饰演艾法巴，并撰写了一本名为《简单更多》的新回忆录。
She stars as Elphaba in Wicked for Good, and she's written a new memoir called Simply More.
休息后继续。
More after a break.
这里是新鲜空气节目。
This is fresh air.
我想快速确认一下情况。
So I just wanna check-in really quick.
你还好吗？还是正遭受睡眠不足、账单堆积或政治宣传的困扰？
Are you okay, or are you suffering from sleep deprivation, a stack of bills, or political propaganda?
如果是这样，你可能陷入了为人父母的困境。
If so, you may be stuck in the parent trap.
在《一分钟过去》播客中，我们将深入探讨现代育儿的焦虑，以及这些焦虑如何影响我们每个人——即使你没有孩子。
On the It's Been a Minute podcast, we're diving headfirst into the anxieties of modern parenting and how that trickles out to all of us even if you don't have children.
来寻找一些慰藉吧。
Come find some relief.
请在NPR应用或任何你获取播客的地方收听《一分钟过去》播客。
Listen to the It's Been a Minute podcast on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Wildcard这个节目让大牌访谈变得像朋友间的闲聊。
Wildcard is where big name interviews feel like conversations with a friend.
我是说，我真不敢相信自己有多幸运。
I mean, I can't believe how lucky I've been.
你没有好好道别，麦康纳。
You didn't say goodbye the right way, McConaughey.
她告诉我，我觉得你不是普林斯顿的料。
She told me, I don't think you're Princeton material.
我想，我这个人就是很坦率。
I'm nothing if not open, I guess.
我是瑞秋·马丁。
I'm Rachel Martin.
您可以在NPR应用、YouTube或任何播客平台观看或收听Wildcard节目。
Watch or listen to wildcard on the NPR app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.
NPR的支持及以下信息来自Yarl和Pamela Mohn，感谢那些每天让公共广播变得精彩的人们，也感谢所有听众。
Support for NPR and the following message come from Yarl and Pamela Mohn, thanking the people who make public radio great every day and also those who listen.
多年前你做了一个决定，就是剃光头发。
Something that you made the decision many years ago was to shave your hair.
嗯。
Mhmm.
谈谈那个决定吧，因为这在某种程度上也改变了你的试镜经历。
And talk about that decision because it also is something that sort of has changed the audition process for you.
是啊。
Yeah.
这一切始于很久以前。
It started a long time ago.
就在我刚从戏剧学院毕业的时候，我也不清楚。
Just as I was coming out of drama school, I don't know.
我只知道自己想要些不一样的东西。
I just knew that I wanted something different.
那时候所有试镜的女孩都留着长发追求特定审美，而我对此很排斥，因为我不想要任何干扰因素。
Around that time, everyone who was auditioning, girls who were auditioning, wanted long hair and a particular kind of aesthetic and I sort of repelled against the idea because I sort of I I didn't want any distractions.
不知道是什么给了我这种想法，给了我这样思考的底气。
I don't know what gave me the idea, what gave me the wherewithal to think.
我想要减少干扰。
I I want to lessen the distraction.
我希望他们只看到我的脸。
I want them to just see my face.
我希望当我走进房间时，他们看到的是一张能够蜕变的面容。
I want when I walk in to for them to see a canvas that can transform.
一张空白的画布。
A blank canvas.
是啊。
Yeah.
一个
A
容器。
vessel.
你所看到的这个容器确实是我本人，我能在你眼前变成那个角色。
A vessel that what you see is really me and I can change into the character in front of your very eyes.
于是我在戏剧学院毕业后做的第一件事就是剪掉头发。
And so what I would do is after I left drama school, cut my hair.
我、我去理发时，理发师非常非常害怕给我剪发，因为我的头发相当长。
I I I went to get a haircut and the hairdresser was very, very scared to cut it because my my hair was quite long.
当时都垂过了我的肩膀。
It came down past my shoulders.
而且，辛西娅，你是黑人。
Also, you're black, Cynthia.
是啊。
Yeah.
你知道，我们的
And you know, our
头发对我们意义重大。
hair means so much to us.
确实如此。
It does.
这对我母亲来说意义非凡。
It meant a lot to my mom.
我母亲当时非常惊讶。
My mom was very surprised.
我剪头发前甚至都没告诉她。
I did I don't think I even told her before I cut my hair.
当我回来时，她非常惊讶，像是说‘你剪了头发，发生什么事了？’
And when I came back, she was really very surprised and sort of, you cut your hair, what what's going on?
另外，传统上，我们剪头发的原因，一是为了散热——如果你是非洲人；另一个常见情况是在失去某人时剪发，所以这隐含着一种对失去的理解。
Also, traditionally, when we cut our hair, one, it's for heat if you're African and often you cut your hair if you lose someone, so there's an understanding of sort of loss.
你知道那句老话吗？当女人剪发或改变发型时，意味着生活发生了转变。
You know that the old adage when you when a woman cuts her hair or changes her hairstyle, a life shift has happened.
嗯。
Mhmm.
这在尼日利亚传统中非常真实。
That is very true of the Nigerian tradition.
所以对我来说，我感觉自己经历了一次人生转变。
And so for me, I felt like I went for my own life shift.
就在戏剧学院毕业后发生这件事，让我感觉像是要告别某些东西，从中汲取所需，并放下其他无关紧要的。
I just sort of thought having had it happen right after drama school, I felt like I was sort of leaving something behind and taking from it what I needed and and letting go of whatever else I didn't.
当我剪掉头发时，奇怪地感到找回了自我。
And when I cut my hair, I felt strangely like myself.
随着时间推移，我越来越倾向于彻底剪短，而《魔法坏女巫》就是我完全剃光头的契机。
And the more I have I felt like I've been steadily moving towards cutting it off completely and Wicked was the the moment when I took it off completely.
我意识到我的头皮必须是绿色的。
I realized that my scalp had to be green.
所以你看《魔法坏女巫》时会发现，那些辫子是360度环绕的。
So when you watch Wicked, you'll see that the braids that it's three sixty.
是的。
Yes.
所以你能看到我的
So you can see my
在辫子之间，你可以看到一个
In between the braids, you can see a
绿色的头皮。
green scalp.
绿色的头皮。
A green scalp.
那是我的头皮。
That is my scalp.
不是假发。
It is not the wig.
也不是假发的蕾丝边。
It's not the lace of the wig.
假发的蕾丝边基本上是半透明的。
The lace of the wig wig is basically translucent.
你能看到假发下面我的头皮，但我们把我的头皮喷成了绿色。
And you can see my scalp underneath the the wig, but we spray my scalp green.
就像我的脸是绿色的一样，我的头发也包含这种颜色。
The the way my face is green, it's included in my hair.
因为我知道会这样，我想，好吧，我们只能全部剪掉了
And because I knew that was gonna happen, I thought, well, I guess we'll have to just cut This it all
这具有变革性，因为，当然非常
has been transformative because, of course Very
确实如此。
much so.
你本想以容器身份进入，但看起来那些选角的人...是啊。
You wanted to go in as a vessel, but it seemed like those who were casting Yeah.
对此产生了强烈的本能反应。
Had a a visceral reaction to it.
是啊。
Yeah.
所以当我进去试镜时，留着很短的头发。
So so when I went in, I had very short hair.
奇怪的是，当时我头发又短又金，去试镜时就是那样。
And that was when it was short and blonde, strangely enough, when I went to to audition.
等到我真正拿到这个角色时，头发已经长了一些。
And by the time I had gotten to the role itself, it'd grown a little bit more.
然后我就把它剪掉了。
And then I then I cut it.
我想所有人都很惊讶我要剪头发，因为他们原本打算直接在发网下染深色就完事了。
And I think everyone was very surprised that I was going to cut my hair because I think they were gonna just make the lace dark underneath it and let it be like that.
我当时就说，呃，为什么？
And I was like, well, why?
为什么？
Why?
既然要做，就应该做到位。
If we're going to do it, we should do it.
嗯。
Mhmm.
而且当我把它剪掉时，我真的很喜欢我所看到的。
And also when I when I cut it off, I really liked what I saw.
嗯。
Mhmm.
所以我就这么做了，我觉得这只是让我更接近完全理解这个人的额外一步，这样我就不会自欺欺人地看待镜中的自己。
So I just I just went with it and I I thought there's just one it's a one extra thing that moves me closer to connecting completely with this person so that I'm not fooling myself about what I'm seeing in in the mirror.
有人问我是想被涂成绿色还是用CGI特效，我说我想要完整的体验。
I was asked if I wanted to be painted green or if I wanted it to be CGI And I said I want I want the full thing.
我想被涂成绿色。
I want to be painted green.
但这包括我的头皮。
But that includes my scalp.
那肯定也是个漫长的过程。
That's gotta be a long process too.
是的。
Yes.
光是涂我的脸和脖子就要至少两小时四十五分钟。
It is at minimum two hours and forty five minutes if it's just my face and neck at half.
每次都是这样。
Every single time.
每次都是这样。
Every single time.
要知道，《反抗引力》那段旋律现在已经成为一种文化现象了。
You know, the Defying Gravity riff, it's now just become a cultural Yeah.
现象级的存在。
Phenomenon.
是啊。
Yeah.
有个场景是凯克·帕默在NAACP颁奖礼上突然开始唱这段，你知道的。
There's that moment where Keke Palmer is at the NAACP Awards and she just starts singing it, you know.
自己的声音成为流行参照是什么感觉？
What's it like to have your voice become a reference?
这已经成为文化语言的一部分了。
You know, it's part of the cultural language now.
我...我感到非常荣幸，这很美妙，因为之前有很多女性都唱过她们的标志性旋律。
I I'm I'm, one, deeply flattered, and it's kind of wonderful because many women have had their their riff and they've they've done it before.
当然还有埃迪娜·门泽尔的原版。
And of course, you have the original by Etienne Menzel.
但现在能成为这个音乐符号的一部分真的很美好。
But it's just lovely to to be a part of the the lexicon of that now.
非常美好。
It's lovely.
是啊。
Yeah.
你唱《反抗引力》时眼前会浮现什么颜色？
What colors do you see when when you sing Defying Gravity?
奇怪的是，蓝色。
Blues, strangely.
不同的蓝色，像是虹彩蓝。
Different blue like like iridescent blues.
是啊。
Yeah.
爱莉安娜·格兰德就坐在你之前坐的那个位置上。
Ariana Grande sat in the seat where you were sitting Yes.
为了第一个三柱门。
For the first wicket.
没错。
Yeah.
她告诉我你们俩互相约定要互相保护，共同前进。
And she told me that the two of you all made a pact with each other to help protect each other as you move through.
是的。
Yes.
那个约定是什么？
What was that pact?
就是那个...
That it that.
我们约定要确保彼此保持沟通，如果有问题，如果有什么不对劲，合同啊什么的，都要先在我们之间解决。
That we would make sure that we were always speaking to one another and that it would sort of be between us first if there was a problem, if if something was not right, contracts, the whole lot.
你怎么知道爱莉安娜是你的盟友？
How did you know that you had an ally in Ariana?
你就是能感觉到。
You just feel it.
你知道，我们第一次共度时光，可能是在我家的地板上，我们坐着聊了大概五个小时。
You know, the first time we spent time together, it was probably on my floor and we sat for like five hours just chatting.
我当时就有点明白了。
And I I kinda just knew.
你就是知道，懂吗？
You just know, you know?
和她聊天很轻松。
It was easy to talk to her.
和她交心很容易。
It was easy to get really real with her.
如果我遇到什么困扰，或者她有什么烦恼，我们就会找个角落立刻开始谈心。
If there was something I was struggling with or something she was struggling with, we would just sort of like find a corner to just chat immediately.
我们还为彼此想出了安全词。
We came up with like little safe words for each other.
如果发生什么事，或者我因为什么感到不堪重负，我就会说出我的那个词。
If there's like a if there's something going on or I'm like overwhelmed for something, I have a word that I say.
如果她遇到什么难以承受的事，她也会说出她的那个词，这样我们就知道对方的状态。
And if there's something she's overwhelmed with, she has a word that she says, you know, so that we know where the other one is.
是啊。
Yeah.
我们真的...我们经常交流。
And we we really like we talk.
我们进行的是真实的对话。
We have real conversations.
这对同事或搭档来说很罕见吗？
Is that rare for a a colleague for a a co star?
我不...我认为这只是个迷思。
I don't I I think the myth is that it is.
关系这么亲密很罕见吗？
Is it rare for it to be this close?
我想是的。
I think so.
是完全不可能的吗？
Is it rare completely?
我不这么认为。
I don't think so.
我认为人们总被灌输女性无法和睦相处、无法在电影行业共存并互相扶持的观念。
I think that we are led to believe that women cannot get along and women cannot coexist within film and take care of one another.
但我觉得正是这种迷思的延续让它成为了现实。
But I think that that the continuation of that myth is the thing that makes it makes it true.
但实际上，大多数时候我们只有彼此。
But actually, more often than not, all we have is each other.
辛西娅·里沃，和你交谈真是愉快。
Cynthia Rivo, this has been such a pleasure to talk with you.
你也是。
You too.
这太棒了。
This was wonderful.
辛西娅·里沃的回忆录书名直译为《更多》。
Cynthia Rivo's memoir is titled simply more.
她主演的新片《善良女巫》将于周五在影院上映。
She stars in the new film wicked for good, which is out in theaters on Friday.
明天的《新鲜空气》节目中，本·斯蒂勒将讲述在演艺世家成长的经历。
Tomorrow on fresh air, Ben Stiller talks about growing up with showbiz parents.
他的父亲杰瑞·斯蒂勒因在《宋飞正传》中饰演乔治的父亲弗兰克·科斯坦萨而闻名。
His father, Jerry Stiller, is known for his role on Seinfeld as Frank Costanza, George's father.
在此之前，他与妻子——本的母亲安妮·米拉组成过喜剧二人组。
And before that, he was in a comedy duo with his wife and Ben's mother, Anne Mira.
本的新纪录片是关于他父亲记录自己生活和婚姻的录音。
Ben's new documentary is about the recordings his father made about his life and marriage.
希望您能加入我们。
I hope you can join us.
我们的访谈和评论由菲莉丝·迈耶斯、罗伯塔·舒洛克、安妮·玛丽·巴尔达纳多、劳伦·克林泽尔、莫妮克·拿撒勒、西娅·查洛纳、苏珊·亚昆迪和安娜·鲍曼共同制作编辑。
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shurrock, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krinzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yakundi, and Anna Baumann.
我们的数字媒体制作人是莫莉·C。
Our digital media producer is Molly C.
B。
B.
内斯珀，我们的视觉顾问制作人是霍普·威尔逊。
Nesper, and our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson.
特蕾莎·马登执导了今天的节目。
Teresa Madden directed today's show.
与特里·格罗斯一起，我是托尼亚·莫斯利。
With Terry Gross, I'm Tonya Mosley.
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This message comes from Wise, the app for using money around the globe.
使用Wise管理资金时，您将始终获得中间市场汇率，且无隐藏费用。
When you manage your money with Wise, you'll always get the mid market exchange rate with no hidden fees.
加入数百万用户行列，访问wise.com。
Join millions of customers and visit wise.com.
条款与条件适用。
Ts and cs apply.
与其让算法给你推送平庸的播客推荐，不如订阅NPR的播客俱乐部通讯。
Instead of letting an algorithm throw mediocre podcast recommendations at you, sign up for NPR's pod club newsletter.
我们筛选数小时的音频，为您精选那些令人惊叹、感动或忍俊不禁的精彩剧集。
We comb through hours of audio to find the gems, the episodes that will make you gasp, cry, or crack up in a public place.
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