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伊朗、黎巴嫩、以色列、加沙。
Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Gaza.
冲突在这么多地方同时发生，第一手报道比以往任何时候都更重要。
With conflict unfolding in so many places, firsthand reporting has never mattered more.
NPR Plus 的支持者们推动着这些报道的进行。
NPR Plus supporters power that work.
他们让我们的记者能够前往新闻发生的现场。
They make it possible for our journalists to go where news is happening.
支持者还能享受 NPR 播客的专属福利，比如额外剧集、档案访问权限等等。
And supporters get perks for NPR podcasts, things like bonus episodes, archive access, and more.
你可以前往 +.npr.org 注册。
You can sign up at +.npr.org.
这里是《新鲜空气》。
This is Fresh Air.
我是特里·格罗斯。
I'm Terry Gross.
今天我们请到的嘉宾是作家玛吉·奥法雷尔。
Our guest is author Maggie O'Farrell.
她最著名的作品是2020年的小说《哈姆内特》。
She's best known for her 2020 novel Hamnet.
这部小说去年被改编成电影，杰西·巴克利凭借饰演威廉·莎士比亚的妻子阿格尼斯一角，赢得了奥斯卡奖。
It was adapted into a movie last year, and Jesse Buckley won an Oscar for her performance as Agnes Shakespeare, William Shakespeare's wife.
奥法雷尔和导演乔·怀特共同撰写了这部电影的剧本。
O'Farrell co wrote the film screenplay with its director Chloe Zhao.
玛吉·奥法雷尔接受了NPR《新鲜空气》节目执行制片人萨姆·布里格的采访，谈到了她的新小说《土地》。
Maggie O'Farrell spoke to Fresh Air's executive producer Sam Brigger about her new novel, Land.
接下来是萨姆。
Here's Sam.
《哈姆内特》是对威廉·莎士比亚和他的妻子安妮·哈撒韦故事的虚构演绎。
Hamnet is a fictionalized version of the story of William Shakespeare and his wife, Agnes Hathaway.
小说讲述了他们如何相遇、相爱、结婚并育有孩子。
It's about how they meet and fall in love, marry, and have children.
他们年幼的儿子哈姆内特死于瘟疫。
Their young son, Hamnet, dies from the plague.
丧子之痛击垮了这个家庭，也促使莎士比亚写出了戏剧《哈姆雷特》。
The grief shakes the family and leads Shakespeare to write his play, Hamlet.
奥法雷尔的小说《哈姆内特》获得了英国女性小说奖。
O'Farrell's novel, Hamnet, won Britain's Women's Prize for fiction.
玛吉·奥法雷尔的新小说叫《土地》。
Maggie O'Farrell has a new novel called Land.
故事发生在19世纪60年代的爱尔兰，开头是托马斯和他十岁的儿子利亚姆，在恶劣天气中为英国爱尔兰地形测量局测绘一个半岛。
It takes place in Ireland in the eighteen sixties, beginning with Tomas and Liam, an Irish father and 10 year old son, out in foul weather mapping a peninsula as part of the British Ordnance Survey of Ireland.
托马斯处于半雇佣半服役的状态，受命为爱尔兰更新地图。
Tomas, somewhere between employed and indentured to British soldiers, is tasked with modernizing the maps of Ireland.
半岛上发生了一件奇妙的事，彻底改变了他们一家的命运，也让托马斯决定搬离城里那间狭小的单间公寓，带着全家搬到半岛上一座废弃的小屋，开始务农生活。
Something magical happens on the peninsula that forever changes the trajectory of their family and compels Thomas to move his family from the tight quarters of their city's one room apartment to an abandoned cottage on the peninsula and begin an agrarian life.
由于小说背景设定在爱尔兰大饥荒结束后的十年左右，整个爱尔兰到处都是被遗弃的小屋、房屋和村庄。
There are many abandoned cottages and houses and villages throughout Ireland as the novel takes place only a decade or so after the country's Great Famine.
乡村地区已经人烟稀少，数百万人死于饥荒或选择移民。
The countryside has been emptied out, with millions lost to the famine and to emigration.
托马斯某种程度上是在记录这些生命如何从大地上消失。
Thomas is in part mapping the erasure of those lives from the land.
奥法雷尔还写过另外八部小说、几本儿童读物，以及一本回忆录《我，我，我》，副标题是《与死亡的十七次擦肩》，讲的是她差点被杀、差点溺亡，还有童年时患脑炎留下的平衡感和空间感知障碍。
O'Farrell has written eight other novels, children's books, a memoir called I Am I Am I Am, 17 Brushes with Death, about, well, her brushes with death, nearly being murdered, nearly drowning, and her childhood encephalitis that left her with various balance and spatial recognition challenges.
欢迎你再次做客《新鲜空气》节目，玛吉·奥法雷尔。
Maggie O'Farrell, welcome back to Fresh Air.
非常感谢你们邀请我。
Thank you so much for having me.
能来到这里真的很开心。
It's lovely to be here.
那你能说说，是什么启发你写了这本新书《土地》吗？
So can you tell us what the spark was for your new book, Land?
嗯，我觉得这个念头是慢慢浮现出来的。
Oh, well, I'd say it crept up on me very slowly.
我一直以来都很感兴趣我那位曾曾祖父的人生，托马斯这个角色就是以他为原型的。
I've always really been interested in the life of my great great grandfather on whom Tomas, the character, is based.
他在十九世纪中期的爱尔兰为测量局工作，就在大饥荒刚刚结束之后。
He worked for the Ordnance Survey in Ireland in the mid nineteenth century, just after the Great Famine had taken place.
我多年来一直想着他，也一直想着他的儿子。
And I thought about him for years, and I thought about his son for years.
他的儿子是我的祖父，他最初走的路和他父亲截然不同。
His son was my great grandfather, and he took a very different path in life initially from his father's.
他成了耶稣会士，但凡了解天主教的人都知道，这可不是随便就能选的职业。
He became a Jesuit, which, as anyone knows anything about Catholicism, is not a job you just happen to fall into.
这是一份需要全身心投入、要花多年时间训练的使命。
It's something that you really, really commit yourself to, and it takes years to train.
他当了多年的耶稣会士，然后却出人意料地离开了。
He was a Jesuit for a and then he left quite astonishingly.
正因为如此，才有了我，也有了我所有的表兄弟姐妹。
Hence, I my existence and the existence of all my cousins and siblings.
他最终走回了原点，像他父亲一样成了测绘员。
And he came full circle and became a mapper like his father.
他们两个人一直让我很着迷，但我一直不知道该怎么把他们的故事写成小说，直到几年前，我坐火车从贝尔法斯特去都柏林时，突然有了灵感。
So the two of them was always really interested in me, but I could never really see a way forward to making into a novel until I was on a train a few years ago on the way from Belfast to Dublin.
就在那一瞬间——我希望这种事能多发生几次，萨姆——书的第一句话突然浮现在我脑子里：‘他父亲曾是个怎样的人’，就这几个字。
And just suddenly, and I wish this happened more often, Sam, but the very first line of the book just slid into my head, which is his father was ever a man, a few words.
这真的特别不可思议。
And it was really extraordinary.
我以前从没经历过这样的事。
I've never had this experience before.
只要有了第一句话，整部小说的脉络一下子就清晰了。
As soon as I had that first line, I could suddenly see the path of the whole novel.
我知道该怎么写了。
I could see how I could do it.
也就是说，不剧透太多，这本书确实真实地映照了你们家族的历史。
So, I mean, not to give too much away, but this book does really map the history of your family there.
这本书其实是基于我对我曾祖父和高祖父生平的了解，但说实话，能挖到的资料并不多。
Well, it's based on the lives of what I could find out of the lives of my great great grandfather and my great grandfather, which wasn't a huge amount, to be honest.
不过，我就靠着这些零星的线索，编织出了一个完整的小说。
But I've woven a novel around the scant details that we have of about them.
咱们聊聊地图吧。
Let's talk a little bit about maps.
一般人看地图，很容易就觉得它只是对土地的客观呈现，对吧？
I think it's pretty easy to just sort of look at a map and believe that it's a, you know, just a natural representation of the land.
比如，这条河就叫这个名字，
Like, oh, there's the name of this river.
国界就画在这儿。
Here's where the country's boundaries are.
但你的书提醒了我们，地图其实承载了非常多的历史信息。
But, you know, maps, as your book shows, can convey actually a lot of history.
殖民主义、暴力，背后都藏着意识形态。
Colonialism, violence, they can have ideologies behind them.
是什么让你对这个感兴趣的？
What made you interested in that?
我一直对地图、绘图这件事，以及人们想要绘图的冲动特别着迷。
I've always really been fascinated in maps and the idea of mapping and the impulse to map.
我觉得这确实是人类的一种本能。
I think it is a real human instinct to do it.
事实上，人类在学会写字之前，就已经开始做地图了。
It actually as humans, it predates our ability to write.
世界上已知最古老的地图，是在如今意大利阿尔卑斯山区一个叫贝代利纳的洞穴岩壁上发现的，属于铁器时代。
You know, the first known map in the world is an iron age map on the walls of a cave in what's now the Italian Alps in a place called Bedellina.
有人在某个时刻，忍不住在岩石上刻下了一幅精美的图案，描绘了他们的家园、田地、小屋，还有他们那个可以说是小镇的地方。
And somebody, at some point, was filled with the urge to draw to scratch into the rock this exquisite rendering of their home, their fields and huts and their sort of town, I suppose you would call it.
这真是对一种强烈冲动的精彩表达——我想说，这就是我。
And it's just such an interesting representation of the urge to say, this is who I am.
这就是我所在的地方。
This is where I am.
但如果你快进到大概一千年后，就到了罗马帝国时期。
But, of course, you fast forward of, say, a thousand years or so, and you get to the Roman Empire.
从那时起，绘图的冲动就再也分不清和占有欲、殖民主义之间的界限了。
And from that point on, it's impossible to disentangle the urge to map from the urge to possess, the from colonialism.
你们角色托马斯和利亚姆所绘制的地图，尤其深陷在这些问题之中。
And the maps that your character, Tomas and Liam, are working on are particularly fraught with those issues.
你能说说这些地图所属的英国地形测量局的背景吗？
Could you set the context of the Ordnance Survey of which these maps are a part?
可以。
Yes.
英国地形测量局是一个英国机构，当时——也就是十九世纪——爱尔兰是英国的殖民地。
So the Ordnance Survey was a organization, a British organization, and at this point, of course, in nineteenth century, Ireland was a colony of Britain.
英国人决定在1820年代测绘爱尔兰，主要是为了征税。
And the British decided that they needed to map Ireland in the eighteen twenties, and it was for taxation purposes.
是为了所谓的地租税。
It was for what's called a cest tax.
直到今天，爱尔兰还有个说法，意思是‘滚蛋’或者‘诅咒你’，叫‘bad cest to you’，就是从这儿来的。
There's still even now in Ireland an expression, which means to sort of say, get lost or curses on you, and it's bad cest to you, and that's where it comes from.
一开始，这纯粹是为了征税，还下过命令，不准雇用任何爱尔兰人，结果根本行不通。
So initially, it was a was taxation purposes, and they had an edict that no Irish were to be employed, which didn't go very well.
他们原本以为，七年就能把整个爱尔兰测绘完。
They initially thought that they that they could map out the whole of Ireland in seven years.
结果花了将近二十年，最后不得不雇爱尔兰人，毕竟语言障碍实在躲不开。
It actually took them almost twenty, and they did have to employ Irish because, obviously, you know, they would come across linguistic problems.
比如一座山，这边的人叫它这个名字。
So there was a mountain on one side, people called it one thing.
那边的人却用另一个名字称呼它。
On the other side, they called it another.
更别说，当英国军队一进村，爱尔兰人自然又惊又疑。
Not to mention the fact that, obviously, when a British army division arrived in a township, the Irish were naturally quite alarmed and suspicious.
我听过一些说法，说英国人花很长时间 setup 三角测量点——这可是算距离的关键——结果夜里，爱尔兰人偷偷把点挪几英尺，就为了逗他们玩。
And I have heard accounts that when the British would spend a long time setting up their trig point, which, of course, was essential for the accurate mathematic calculations of distances, And during the night, the Irish would just move it a few feet just to mess with them.
所以他们最终还是雇了爱尔兰人，其中一位就是我的曾曾祖父。
So they did end up having to employ Irish, one of which was my great great grandfather.
当我意识到他是在十九世纪四十年代末开始工作的，我一下子愣住了，因为但凡了解爱尔兰历史的人都知道，那正是大饥荒的最后几年。
When I realized that he'd started at the in the late eighteen forties, it really stopped me in my track, because, of course, anyone who knows anything about Irish history realizes that those were the final years of the Great Famine.
所以在短短十年间，这片土地上的人文与自然景观彻底改变了。
So obviously, the human and physical geography of the land was completely changed in just that short decade.
对。
Right.
因为半岛上曾经有个村子。
Because there's a village on the peninsula.
准确说，现在只剩下村子的遗迹了。
Well, there's the remnants of a village.
你在书里提到，这里以前有四十户人家，现在只剩四户。
In the book, you say this, you know, there used to be 40 houses here, now they're four.
我真希望你能读一读那段描述。
I'd I'd like you actually to read a passage that describes that.
这是托马斯在面对这场可怕饥荒时，对自身工作的思考。
This is Thomas thinking about the work that he has to do in light of this terrible famine.
他必须把自地图首次绘制以来这里发生的一切，凝练成文字与有序的线条，这虽是职责所在，却也令人唏嘘。
It is a necessary but an enviable part of his current task to distill into ink symbols and order lines what has taken place here since the first maps were drawn.
这些新修订的地图，必须记录下这场大饥荒——十多年前降临在这片土地上的灾难。
These new revisions must contain a cartographic record of the Great Hunger, the disaster that struck this land more than a decade ago now.
托马斯得把一个教区里数百户人家，缩减成如今寥寥可数的几户。
Tomasse must amend the hundreds of households in a barony to the handful that now remain.
他得把地主庄园上一排排租户小屋一一抹去，那些屋子早已空无一人，被彻底拆毁。
He must erase row after row of tenant cottages on landowner estates, have been emptied and dismantled.
那些红衣士兵们故意转过头去，不看这项工作。
The redcoats turn their eyes from this task.
他们宁愿装作没看见这个国家所经历的浩劫、损失与苦难。
They prefer never to acknowledge the crisis that befell the country, the losses and deprivations it has suffered.
他们不想在地图上留下这样的痕迹，因为那意味着不得不承认一些事实。
They do not wish to make such marks upon their maps, which might lead to certain admittances.
不过，托马斯决定，哪怕为此丢掉性命，他的地图也要如实记录下发生过的一切、失去的一切。
Thomas has determined, however, that his maps will bear an account of what happened, what was lost, if it kills him.
谢谢你读这段。
Thank you for reading that.
前面提到的那些‘必须承认的事’，具体指的是什么？
What are the certain admittances that are mentioned there?
嗯，这场大饥荒的成因非常复杂，涉及很多方面。
Well, the Great Famine had very complicated and numerous causes.
当然，其中也有自然因素。
Obviously, there was a natural element to it.
当时摧毁马铃薯作物的病菌在整个欧洲都蔓延开了。
The bacteria that destroyed the potato crop was all over Europe at this time.
事实上，受灾第二严重的国家是比利时。
In fact, the country that suffered the second largest losses was Belgium.
他们失去了五万人。
They lost 50,000 people.
显然，爱尔兰失去了上百万人。
Obviously, Ireland lost a million.
有些人认为这个数字已经算保守的了。
Some people think that's a conservative estimate.
这其中的差距实在太大了。
So there's a huge disparity in that.
当然，原因在于爱尔兰饥荒之所以如此惨烈，背后有太多复杂的政治、社会经济和殖民主义因素。
And, course, the reason would be that there are many, many complicated political, socioeconomic, colonialist reasons for why the famine was so particularly devastating in Ireland.
我只跟你们说一件事。
And I'm just gonna tell you one thing.
当时被任命负责救灾的官员叫查尔斯·特雷维廉，他是英国政府的人。
The man who was appointed famine relief officer was a man called Charles Trevelyan, and he worked for the British government.
他在一封信里写道，这场饥荒是上帝的旨意，是对一群懒惰忘恩的人的惩罚。
He wrote in a letter that the famine was an act of god, a punishment for an idle, ungrateful people.
他写完这封信一年后，居然还因为‘杰出贡献’被封了骑士。
After he wrote this a year after he wrote this, he was given a knighthood for his services.
这个人本该负责发放救灾物资，可他却认为这场饥荒是上帝的惩罚，是给懒惰的人应有的报应。
So this is a man whose job it was to give famine relief, but his attitude to it was that it was an act of God and a a punishment for people who were lazy.
托马斯和他妻子塞拉菲娜，小时候在济贫院里认识的。
Thomas and his wife, Serafina, they they meet as children trapped in this workhouse.
你在研究过程中，对这些济贫院了解了多少？
What what did you learn about these workhouses in your research?
这些孩子本质上是不是被奴役的？
Were these children basically enslaved?
那地方非常残酷。
They were very brutal places.
想进济贫院领救济，就得先放弃自己的土地，说白了就是拿土地换一口饭吃。
In order to go into one, you had to give up your land in order to get the relief of the workhouse, so to speak.
不仅如此，你还得放弃家人——一进去，夫妻就被拆开，孩子和父母也强制分离。
Not only that, you had to basically give up your family because when you went in, you were separated husband from separated from wife, children were separated from parents.
我觉得很多孩子被分开后，根本不知道亲人是死是活，尤其是那些侥幸活下来的孩子，连自己家人还在不在都不知道。
And I think what happened was often you were separated, and it seemed to me that there was a whole swathe of children, particularly, had actually had no idea if they happened to survive, which was not a given.
他们来自哪里、属于哪里、亲人是谁，这些全都彻底消失了。
Just the idea of where they were from and where they belonged and who their people were had completely gone.
我读到过一个关于来自基拉里的小女孩的故事。
There was a story that I read about a young girl who was from Kilari.
她进救济院的时候，工作人员搞错了，写成了基拉尼。
And when she went into the workhouse, they made a mistake, they put down that she was from Kilani.
她父亲已经移民去了美国，其他家人全都去世了，他知道还有一个孩子活了下来。
And her father had emigrated to America, and he the the rest of the family had died, and he knew that there was one child who'd survived.
他回来找她，说：我是来接我女儿的，她来自基拉里。
And he came back to find her, and he said, I've come for my daughter from Kilari.
他们却说：我们这里没有来自基拉里的人。
And they said, we don't have anyone from Kilari.
父亲只好空手回了美国，而她被留在了那里。
And the father went back to America without her, and she was left behind.
当然，他们根本没法找到他。
Of course, they had no way of finding him.
就这个小小的故事，简直深深刺痛了我的心。
And that just that one tiny story just absolutely skewered me through the heart.
这简直是对一个微小行政失误的悲剧性写照，却给这两个人的生活带来了巨大的灾难。
I it's such a tragic representation of just a tiny administrative slip up, but the disaster that it causes in these in these both these people's lives.
所以我必须把这个故事的版本写进我的小说里。
And so I had to put a version of that into the into the novel.
在半岛上，托马斯和阿萨姆遇到了一小片树林。
So on the peninsula, Tomas and Assam come across a a copse.
这个词我只在《小熊维尼》里见过。
It's a word that I only know from Winnie the Pooh.
我平时根本不会用到这个词。
It's not a word I come across.
就是一小片以前没被标记过的树丛。
Small That's bunch of trees that hadn't been mapped before.
林子里有一条神奇的小溪，托马斯喝了那里的水。
And in it, there's a a magical stream that Tomas drinks from.
他失踪了，但回来后整个人都变了。
He goes missing, but when he returns, he's transformed.
以前他是个话少、做事干脆的人，可回来后却喋喋不休。
Like, he used to be this terse man, sort of no nonsense man, but he returns blathering.
他头上戴着一顶树叶编的冠冕。
He's wearing a crown of leaves.
口袋里塞满了蕨类的叶子。
Fern fronds are in his pockets.
他疯了一样地说要画一张真正的地图，把土地的样貌和全部历史都记下来。
He's raving about making a real map that shows how the land is, and that contains all its history.
父亲的这种变化让利亚姆感到极度不安，也彻底撕裂了他们父子之间的关系，这正是小说要探讨的核心。
And this change in his father is profoundly unsettling to Liam, and it really creates the schism between them that the novel explores.
我觉得这挺有意思的。
I guess it's interesting.
孩子通常依赖父亲带来的那种稳定感，可这种稳定突然消失了，真的动摇了这个男孩对父亲的信任。
There's a stability that, obviously, children rely on from their father, but that disappears, and that really shakes this boy's confidence in his father.
我一直对爱尔兰的圣泉或神井特别着迷。
I've always been really fascinated by the holy wells or the sacred wells in Ireland.
我的意思是，它们到处都是。
I mean, they are everywhere.
你走到哪儿都能找到。
You can find them wherever you go.
几乎每个小镇或村庄，至少都有一口。
Most towns or villages, there'll be at least one, I would say.
有些井非常古老，是基督教传入之前异教徒的祭祀场所。
And some of them have been you know, they're ancient sort of pre christian pagan places of worship.
可以追溯到爱尔兰德鲁伊教的时代。
It goes right back to the times of the druids in Ireland.
但很多井后来被融入了天主教和基督教，由神父祝圣，改成了圣布里吉特井、圣帕特里克井之类的名称。
But some of them have been oh, actually, quite a lot of them have been co opted into Catholicism and Christianity, and they've been blessed by a priest and given saint bridge the name for saint Bridget's Wells or Saint Patrick's Wells or whatever.
但这些井都带着浓厚的民间传说色彩，有些地方的能量尤其强烈。
But they all have this kind of folkloric resonance to them, and some of them are really extraordinarily charged places.
但这些井背后其实也有科学道理，特别有意思。
But there's also a science to them, really interestingly.
科克郡有个特别有名的井，据说能治疯病。
There's one a very famous one in County Cork, which is said to kill madness.
最近有人对它做了分析，发现锂含量非常高，这正好说明了
And recently, somebody did an analysis of it, and apparently, it has a very high level of lithium, which just goes to show
锂现在也被用来治疗精神疾病。
Which is a treatment for psychiatric
对。
Yeah.
锂至今仍是某些精神疾病的治疗方法。
Which is a treatment of even now for some mental illness.
这说明，所有的传说里，至少都藏着一点真相。
So it just goes to show that in all myth, there is at least a seed of truth.
你爸爸小时候常给你念爱尔兰民间故事。
Your father used to read to you Irish folk tales as a kid.
而且
And
只读爱尔兰民间故事。
Only Irish folk tales.
他从来只读
He would only ever read
爱尔兰民间故事。
Irish folk tales.
我在你的书里也看到了一些魔幻元素。
And I I sort of see magical elements in your books.
比如女巫石，那种特别的、有魔力的石头。
There's hag stones, these like special stones, magical stones.
还有那些神奇的水井。
There are these magic wells.
你笔下的人物和自然紧密相连，常常拥有某种超常的感知力。
You have people who are closely tied to nature, and tend tend to have sort of extra sensory perceptions.
你在写书的时候，从这些民间故事里吸收了什么？
What did you did you take from those folktales in writing your books?
我父亲以前只给我们读爱尔兰神话，就像我说的，从来只读这个。
Well, my father would only ever read, as I said, only ever read Irish mythology to us.
那时候我们还挺烦的，总求他给我们读《姆明》或者《长袜子皮皮》，可他就是只读爱尔兰神话。
And at the time, it used to annoy us a bit because we used to beg him to try and read the Moomins or Pippi Longstocking to us, but he would only ever read Irish myth.
但现在回头看，那些神话里的世界、人物，还有它们的叙事规则，其实已经成了我讲故事的基因的一部分。
But actually now, I see that it forms that that world and those people and the narrative rules inside these myths form part of my storytelling DNA in a way.
所以我特别想把那些故事里的氛围，尽可能完整地移植到这本小说里。
And it was really important to me to try and transpose as much of that atmosphere of those tales to this novel.
在爱尔兰神话里，土地本身就像一个角色。
So in in Irish mythology, the land itself is it's like a character.
它有自己的主张。
It has opinions.
它甚至能改变身边人类的走向。
It can change the direction of its human compatriots.
树木甚至能说话。
It can the trees can speak.
它有自己的主张。
It has opinions.
它其实像个活生生的角色，参与推动情节发展。
It it you know, it's actually a person that interacts in a or it's a kind of it's a it's an entity that interacts with the plot.
我特别希望在小说里传达出这种感觉。
And I really wanted that to come across in the novel.
小说里有一些元素深深植根于爱尔兰神话。
And there are certain elements of the novel that are that lean heavily on Irish myth.
书里有一条鱼，非常重要。
There's a fish in the novel, which is quite important.
我以前在花园尽头的工作室写作，有次写完起身上楼。
I did, at one point, come I have a I write in a studio at the bottom of the garden, and I did come up.
我对孩子们说：我觉得我这本小说里要出现一条会说话的鱼了。他们当时挺惊讶的——毕竟现在都已经是青少年了。
And I said to my children, oh, I think there's I think my novel's gonna have a talking fish in it, which they were quite I mean, they're teenagers now.
他们对这一点有点怀疑。
They were a little bit skeptical about that.
但在爱尔兰神话里，鱼非常重要。小说里还有一只名叫布兰的狼犬，名字取自芬·麦克库尔的狗。
But the fish are very important in Irish mythology, and there's a there's a wolfhound in the novel called Bran, and he's called after Finn McCool's dog.
你知道，《哈姆内特》和《土地》都是历史小说，但它们并不刻意炫耀背后做的研究。
You know, both Hamnet and Land are historical novels, but they're not the kind of historical novels that sort of are showy about the research that went into them.
有些历史小说看起来就是想让人拍拍脑袋说：干得漂亮。
Like, there's some kind of historical novels that seem to want to be, like, patted on the head and said, good job.
那你怎么平衡呢？既要让小说扎根于它所处的时代背景，又要完成其他你想实现的目标？
So how do you balance, like, the need to contextualize your novel within its time frame, but also sort of do all the other things that you're hoping to do within it?
我觉得这确实是个很难把握的平衡。
It's it's a tricky balancing act, I think.
要想真实还原十九世纪爱尔兰西海岸一间小屋的场景，你得尽可能多地了解当时的一切。
I think in order to create a scene in a cottage in nineteenth century Ireland and on the on the West Coast, you have to know as much as you possibly can about it.
你得知道人们穿什么衣服。
You've got to know what people are wearing.
你得知道地板是啥材料做的，窗户长啥样，桌上可能放着啥东西。
You've gotta know what the floor's made of, what the windows look like, what might be on the table.
他们戴帽子吗？
Are they wearing any hats?
就是所有细枝末节都得弄清楚。
You know, everything.
有狗吗？
Are there dogs?
外面都有啥动物？
Are there what kind of animals are outside?
天气怎么样？
What's the weather like?
这些你全得心里有数，才能有底气把场景搭起来，让人物显得真实，让他们自然地开口说话。
You need to know all that in order to have the confidence to create that scene and create make these people feel real and to set them talking.
但我觉得，不管怎样，最后写到纸上，这些研究内容可能只用上2%就够了。
But I think, anyway, in your in the final draft on the page, you need to make sure that maybe only 2% of that research is showing.
我总觉得，最让我想合上书的事，就是有人拼命想证明自己做足了功课。
I find there's nothing that makes me put a book down faster than if somebody is trying to show me that they've done all their homework.
反正这么一来，故事就全毁了。
It just kills it dead for me anyway.
它会把你拉出故事里，让你根本没法信以为真。
It just pulls you out of it, and you and you can't suspend your disbelief.
所以我一向很小心，先加点细节，等改小说的时候，再一点点删，越删越少。
So I'm always quite careful about that, and I tend to put a little bit of detail in, and then as I'm revising a novel, I will take it out, and take more out, and take more out.
你出生在爱尔兰，但我觉得你没在那里住多久吧。
You were born in Ireland, but I don't think you spent much time living there.
是这样吗？
Is that right?
不是。
No.
从我说话的口音你应该能听出来，我小时候就离开了。
As you can probably tell by the way I speak, you know, I left when I was really young.
我出生在德里，后来还小的时候就搬到了威尔士，再之后去了苏格兰。
I was born in Derry, and then we moved to Wales when I was still quite young, and then Scotland.
你之前提到，你对自称有爱尔兰血统持保留态度。
You said that you're wary of claiming Irish heritage.
那么，爱尔兰在你的身份认同中占什么位置呢？
So where does the idea of Ireland fit into your identity?
我说过我比较谨慎，但说实话，我根本没法用自己这口纯正的英式口音说‘我是爱尔兰人’，听起来太别扭了，我相信别人听了也会觉得怪怪的。
I wouldn't I mean, where maybe I said wary, but I think, you know, I can I don't really I can't listen to myself in my very British voice saying the sentence, I'm Irish, just because it just sounds it just sounds grating to my ear, and probably, I'm sure to other people's too?
所以我觉得这事儿挺奇怪的。
So I think it's a strange thing.
你知道吧。
You know?
我觉得，但凡一个人没在出生地长大，或者口音和名字对不上——就像我这样——总会有个若隐若现的‘另一个自己’跟在身边，你总会忍不住想，如果当年我们没搬走，我会变成什么样？
I think anyone who doesn't grow up in the country they were born in, or has maybe an accent at odds with their name, as I do, there's always a sense of a kind of ghost self that walks along beside you, and you always have this awareness, I think, of what could I have been, who would I have been if we had stayed?
我知道，我肯定说话会完全不一样，人生也可能走上另一条路。
And I know that I would have sounded completely different, and I might have been a different person.
但在英国时，我觉得自己挺爱尔兰的，到了爱尔兰，又因为说话的方式觉得自己挺英国的。
But I suppose I feel I feel quite Irish in Britain, and I feel when I'm in Ireland, I feel quite British just for the just the way I talk.
虽然我的护照一直是爱尔兰的，我也为此感到非常自豪。
Although my passport was Irish, and always has been, and I am very proud of that.
因为这些感受，你写这本极具爱尔兰风格的小说时，有没有犹豫过？
Did you have any hesitancy about writing this very Irish novel because of any of those feelings?
有。
I did.
对。
Yes.
现在也有。
I do.
我想是的。
I suppose so.
是的。
Yeah.
我从来都不希望别人觉得我在侵犯谁的信仰，但这故事就是挥之不去，而且除了我，没人会去写我那位曾曾祖母的故事。
I I don't ever I hope nobody feels like I'm trespassing on anyone else's beliefs or but it just felt it just it was a story that just wouldn't go away, and I don't know who else would have written about my great great girlfriend.
对。
Yeah.
毕竟，这故事是基于你家族的历史。
Mean, it's based in your family history.
是啊。
So Yeah.
我的意思是，没错。
I mean, Yeah.
我记得当时我确实很担心。
When I was I remember I was worried about it.
我跟丈夫聊过，他老实说：‘你写这个，比写十六世纪的英格兰或者文艺复兴时期的佛罗伦萨更有资格。’
I was talking to my husband, and he said, to be honest, he said, you've got more right to write this than you have about sixteenth century England or Renaissance Florence.
我当时就想，对啊，确实如此。
And I thought, oh, yeah.
其实还真是这样。
That's true, actually.
我也是这么想的。
I thought of it that way.
你知道，美国常被称为移民国家。
So, you know, America is often called a country of immigrants.
实际情况要复杂得多，不过我不想深入谈这个。
It's a lot more complicated than that, but I don't want to get into that.
但我很好奇，爱尔兰有这么多人移民海外，这段历史意味着什么？
But I was wondering what it what you think it means for Ireland to be to have such a history of emigration of so many people leaving.
你觉得这对爱尔兰人的身份认同有什么影响？
Like, how do you think that plays out in Irish identity?
我听过一种说法，爱尔兰最大的出口品其实不是健力士啤酒。
I've heard it said that Ireland's biggest export is not, in fact, Guinness.
而是人。
It's people.
我敢说这确实如此。
And I'm sure that's true.
我觉得这确实是不可避免的，你知道的。
I think it's yeah, I mean, it's inevitable, you know.
我总觉得，移民这件事，本质上往往是个令人心酸的故事，对吧？
And I always think immigration is not is usually at the heart of it a sad story, isn't it?
每当我想到那些离开故土的人——不只是爱尔兰人，而是全世界在十九世纪或更早时期离乡的人，那真是一种非凡的举动。
And when I think about those people who left their homeland, not just Irish people everywhere, in the nineteenth century or whatever, it was such an extraordinary thing to do.
我知道，其中一些人，尤其是在爱尔兰，离开并非出于自愿，但无论如何，离开家乡、明知与告别的人此生很可能再也见不到了，这本身就是一件极其震撼的事。
And I know some of them, it wasn't by choice, particularly in Ireland, but you know, it's such an extraordinary thing to leave your homeland, knowing that the people you're saying goodbye to, you will, in all likelihood, never see them again.
而且在很多情况下，你根本没法再和他们联系。如果你识字，家人朋友也识字，或许还能写信，但那并不是常有的事。
And in a lot of cases, you wouldn't be able to communicate with them again, if, you know, if you happen to be literate, if your family happened to friends and family were literate, you could potentially write to them, but that wasn't always the case.
所以，是啊，确实如此。
So it it yeah.
真的很难想象，一个人竟然能跟亲友道别，然后就彻底断了联系。
Just it's it begs belief, really, that you would say goodbye to your friends and family, and that was that.
你再也见不到他们了。
You wouldn't see them again.
没错。
Right.
我们得稍微休息一下。
Well, we need to take another short break here.
如果你刚加入节目，我们的嘉宾是小说家玛吉·奥法雷尔。
If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Maggie O'Farrell.
她的新书是《土地》。
Her new book is Land.
她还写过很多其他作品，包括《哈姆内特》，并参与撰写了2025年电影的剧本，以及她的回忆录《我，我，我：十七次与死亡擦肩而过》。
She's also written many other books, including Hamnet, and she co wrote the screenplay for the film from 2025, and her memoir, I am I am I am 17 brushes with death.
短暂休息后，我们马上回来。
We'll be right back after a short break.
我是萨姆·布里格，欢迎收听《新鲜空气》。
I'm Sam Briger, and this is Fresh Air.
你好。
Hi.
我是莫莉·塞夫·内斯伯格，Fresh Air的数字制作人。
This is Molly Seve Nesberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.
这位是节目主持人特里·格罗斯。
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
我负责撰写每周的通讯稿。
One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.
我也是通讯稿的忠实读者。
And I'm a newsletter fan.
每周六吃完早餐后我都会看。
I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
通讯稿里包含本周所有节目、工作人员推荐，还有莫莉从档案中精选的热点内容。
The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
读起来很有趣。
It's a fun read.
这也是我们唯一会提前透露下周节目内容的地方，算是独家预告。
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.
所以请在 whyy.org/freshair 订阅，每周六早上留意莫莉发来的邮件。
So subscribe at whyy.org/freshair, and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
Maggie，你的书《哈姆内特》讲述了艾格尼丝和威廉·莎士比亚的故事，他们组建的家庭，以及他们11岁的儿子哈姆内特去世（我们推测是这样），还有他们承受的悲痛，以及莎士比亚由此创作出的戏剧《哈姆雷特》。
So Maggie, your book Hamnet tells the story of Agnes and William Shakespeare, the family they create, the death of their son Hamnet at the age of 11, we think, and the grief that they suffer, and and then the play that Shakespeare writes Hamlet that comes out of that grief.
你年轻的时候，对这部剧非常痴迷。
As a young person, you were obsessed with the play.
真的吗？
Is that right?
对。
Yes.
我16岁在苏格兰读高中时学的是高级水平课程，我特别喜欢。
I studied at school when I was 16 for my Scottish Highs, and I absolutely loved it.
我一下子就被迷住了，而且它真的让我深深着迷。
I fell for it in a big way, and it really got under my skin.
我特别喜欢哈姆雷特这个角色，感觉他就像我的兄弟一样。
I particularly loved the character of Hamlet, who felt like sort of a brother to me in a sense.
我觉得这种角色特别能引起某些青少年的共鸣。
I think he appeals to a certain type of teenager.
这剧确实挺忧郁的，对吧？
Well, it's kind of emo, isn't it, the play?
是啊。
Yeah.
那时候爱涂眼妆、总在墓地晃悠的青少年，说的就是我。
Just that teenagers wear a lot of eye makeup who hang about in graveyards, and that was definitely me at the time.
那你对这部剧的理解后来有什么变化吗？
So how did your understanding of the play change?
还有，当你知道莎士比亚有个叫哈姆内特的儿子，而那时候哈姆内特和哈姆雷特是通用的名字，而且他是在儿子去世后写了这部剧，这让你对莎士比亚的看法也变了，对吧？
And and Shakespeare changed when you learned that he had a son named Hamnet, that that was a name at the time that was interchangeable with Hamlet, and that he wrote the play after the death of his son.
我很幸运，遇到一位特别出色的英语文学老师，叫亨德森先生。
I was very lucky in many ways that I had a particularly brilliant English literature teacher called mister Henderson.
他告诉我们，当时我们16岁正在读这部戏，莎士比亚有个儿子叫哈姆雷特，11岁就去世了。
And he told us, as we were studying for the play when we were 16, that Shakespeare had a son who'd been called Hamlet, and that he died aged 11.
四年多以后，他写了这部叫《哈姆雷特》的戏。
And that Shakespeare had gone on four years or so later to write the play Hamlet.
虽然那时候我离当作家、当父母还很远，但这件事深深触动了我。我记得用手指盖住课本上‘哈姆雷特’里的‘l’，又拿开，心想：这名字怎么一模一样？
And I was even though was a really long way off from being a writer and and a parent, I this really struck me, and I remember putting my finger over the l in Hamlet on my school copy and taking it off again thinking, that's strange because it's the same name.
我知道这意义重大——没人会随便拿自己死去儿子的名字，去给一个王子、一个幽灵命名。
And I knew that it was I knew that it was hugely significant, that nobody would casually give a play and a prince, and a ghost, the name of his dead son.
我得承认，这本书我读起来特别吃力，因为从一开始我就知道哈姆内特会死。
I have to admit that I found the book very hard to read, because I knew going in that Hamnet was going to die.
那种预感一直挥之不去，就像当父母后总有一种警觉——总觉得哪里会出事，得时刻盯着。
And it gave me this feeling of foreboding that I've often felt as a parent this sort of constant vigilance that, you know, something is going to go wrong, that I need to be watching out for it.
就算现在孩子都十几二十岁了，这种感觉也从来没真正消失过。
And even like now, when my kids are in their teens and twenties, that feeling never really goes away.
我想问问，你写的时候，是想让读者也感受到这种情绪吗？
And I was just wondering, were you trying to create that feeling in the reader?
我觉得我写《哈姆雷特》的初衷，是不满学者和莎士比亚传记作者们对哈姆雷特这个人物的处理方式。
I think the engine behind me writing Hamlet was a dissatisfaction with the way Hamlet himself had been treated by scholars and biographers of Shakespeare.
你读那些了不起的学术著作、厚厚的莎士比亚传记，哈姆雷特能被提到一两次就算不错了。
You know, you read these incredible works of scholarship, these huge biographies about Shakespeare, and Hamlet is lucky if he gets maybe one or two mentions.
他们只说他出生了，然后就提一句他死了。
And his they they said he was born, and then they say that he died.
对我来说，他的死常常被简化成伊丽莎白时代儿童死亡率的统计数据。
And his death is all too often, for me anyway, wrapped up in statistics about Elizabethan child mortality.
没错。
Right.
这好像在试图淡化人们本该感受到的悲痛。
Which seems to try to soften the grief that people would feel.
是的。
Yes.
言下之意是，那时候死亡太常见了，你得庆幸——在16世纪的英格兰，孩子能活到五岁的概率只有五分之一。
The implication is that because it was, you know, death, you were lucky, you know, think it was one in you had a one in five chance of reaching your fifth birthday in the sixteenth century in England.
不幸的是，当时能让你出问题的事情多得是。
There was no shortage of things that could fail you, unfortunately.
但人们似乎觉得，既然这种事难免，那也就没那么难过了，得学会接受。
But the implication is that somehow it was less upsetting because you just had to get used to it.
但我从来就不信这套说法。
And I I I just never I never believed that.
有一本书里正好有这么一句话：我们永远无法知道，莎士比亚在哈姆雷特去世时是否感到悲痛。
And there was one book in particular that in that had the sentence, it is impossible to know whether or not Shakespeare grieved when Hamlet died.
我看到这句话气得不行。
And I was so furious about that.
我直接把书扔到了房间另一头，因为我始终认为，无论在哪个时代、哪个地方，失去孩子都是天大的灾难。
I threw it across the room, because I just I just I don't believe that anywhere in time, anywhere in the world, it's anything less than catastrophic to lose a child.
我就是不信别的。
I just don't believe it.
话又说回来，谁能比莎士比亚更懂悲痛呢？
I mean, which is hard to imagine considering, like, who wrote better about grief than Shakespeare?
嗯，没错。
Well, yes.
你只想引导他们，问一句：你读过他的任何一部戏剧吗？
You just want to direct them and say, have you read any of the plays?
你有没有听过《约翰王》里康斯坦丝说起她儿子去世那段？
Have you have you listened to, you know, Constance in in King John talk about her her her son and him dying?
你知道的。
You know?
我觉得，谁都知道这话根本站不住脚。
I mean, obviously, we I think we all know that's nonsense.
你根本不用当父母，也能明白这纯属胡说。
You don't have to be a parent to know that's nonsense.
我一直觉得，哈姆雷特这个孩子，在他那位赫赫有名的父亲的故事里，被贬成了一个注脚。
So I think I just wanted to and I always felt that Hamlet, the boy, had been relegated to a footnote in his very famous father's story.
我想把他从阴影里拉出来，告诉读者们：这个孩子很重要。
And I wanted to bring him out of the shadows and say to the people, to readers, you know, this child was important.
他被人深爱着。
He was loved.
他的离世让人心痛。
He was grieved.
如果没有他，就不会有《哈姆雷特》，很可能也不会有《第十二夜》。
And without him, we would not have Hamlet, and we probably wouldn't have Twelfth Night.
你说哈姆内特被贬低成了一个注脚。
You say that that Hamnet is relegated to a footnote.
莎士比亚的妻子安或艾格尼斯——这两个名字好像可以互换——她的注脚或许长一点，但也好不到哪儿去，对吧？
Shakespeare's wife, Anne or Agnes, I guess, the names were interchangeable as well, maybe had a slightly longer footnote, but but not any better.
没错。
Correct?
不对。
No.
我觉得她的注脚反而更刻薄。
Her footnotes were quite unkind, I think.
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是的。
Yeah.
再说一遍，学者们总是只给我们讲一个关于她的故事，一个固定的叙事：说她是个年长的农妇，勾引了这位少年天才结婚。
Again, scholars tended have always tended to only tell us one story about her, one narrative, which is that she was an older peasant woman who was who lured this boy genius into marriage.
还有人写说他讨厌她，逃到伦敦就是为了躲开她。
And they've people have written things like that he hated her, and he ran away to London to get away from her.
他后悔了这段婚姻。
He regretted their marriage.
这些说法根本没有任何证据支持。
I mean, none of which there's any evidence for whatsoever.
我实在想不通，人们对她为什么有这么大的敌意，为什么非要给他安排一场事后的离婚。
I couldn't really understand where all this hostility towards her came from and why people are so determined in a way to give him a retrospective divorce.
实际上，我发现了大量证据表明，他们彼此是相爱的。
And, actually, I found a lot of evidence that they did love each other instead.
所以，我想再次邀请读者们抛开所有你自以为了解的关于安·哈撒韦的事情——人们总是这么叫她。
So I I wanted to, again, to write to ask invite readers to forget everything they think they know about Anne Hathaway, which she's always called.
我不明白，尽管她一生大部分时间都叫莎士比亚。
I don't know why even though her name was Shakespeare for most of her life.
再说一句，也许他们真的是彼此相爱的。
And just to say, actually, maybe they did love each other.
也许他们的关系是一种真正的伙伴关系。
Maybe theirs was a partnership.
正如我所说，作为一位父母，读《哈姆内特》时我很难不代入自己的感受。
So as I said, it was very hard for me to read Hamnet sort of thinking about myself as a parent.
你作为父母写这本书的时候，也有类似的感受吗？
Did you have similar feelings writing it as a parent yourself?
写哈姆内特去世以及随后为他准备葬礼的场景时，我确实感到非常艰难。
I did find writing the scenes of Hamlet's death and his the subsequent scene of his laying out for burial very hard to write.
确实如此。
It's true I did.
我甚至没有在孩子们住的家里写这些部分。
And I didn't write them in the house where my children live.
我其实是躲在花园里一个特别老的棚子里写的，后来那棚子在一场狂风里被吹垮了。
I actually wrote them in a in a really old shed in the garden, which has since blown down in a gale.
我只能一次写个十到十五分钟。
And I had to do it in sort of ten or fifteen minute intervals.
写一会儿，我就去花园里散散步，让自己缓一缓，然后再回去接着写。
So I would write it, and then I would have a walk around the garden to kind of decompress, and then I would go in again.
这两段场景，我大概花了两周时间才写完。
And the two scenes probably took me about a fortnight to write.
写得确实很艰难，但我就是希望它艰难——因为我觉得他的死被轻描淡写，被埋没在一堆统计数据里。
And they were really hard, but I I wanted them to be hard, actually, partly because I felt his death had been so downplayed and overlooked and wrapped in statistics.
我想给它应有的庄重感。
I wanted it to to give it the dignity I thought it deserved.
你和导演赵婷一起写了《哈姆内特》这部电影的剧本。
You co wrote the screenplay for the movie adaptation of Hamnet with the director Chloe Zhao.
我猜，你看到自己的书被拍成电影时，心里可能有些复杂吧。
I would imagine that you might have some ambivalence about seeing your book made into a movie.
一方面，阿格尼斯被丈夫的戏剧深深吸引，看到这些角色由如此出色的演员生动演绎，确实有种魔幻的感觉。
Like, on the one hand, it might be kind of magical the way Agnes is entranced by her husband's play, by seeing these characters embodied and enacted by, you know, very talented actors.
但另一方面，你的作品如此注重人物的内心世界，而电影这种媒介本身，加上时间限制等等，注定要舍弃很多这样的细节。
But on the other hand, like, your work is so much about the interiority of your characters, and just by the virtue of the medium, the time constraints, whatever, like, you have to lose so much of that.
是的。
Yeah.
但这本书是我的孩子，永远都是。
But the book is my baby and always will be.
而这部电影更像是我的侄子或侄女。
And the film feels more like a maybe a niece or a nephew.
整个过程我从没觉得是在交出什么。
It feel and it never felt at any point, like, handing over.
很多人问我，交出去的时候感觉怎么样？
A lot of people said, how was it to hand it over?
但那感觉从来就不存在。
And it never felt like that.
感觉更像是打开门，邀请别人走进来。
It felt like more just opening up and inviting others to step inside.
小说家大多都是独来独往的，我特别喜欢这种状态。
Novelists are such we're all very much a lone wolf, and I love that.
我不是在抱怨。
Don't get me wrong.
但和这么多人合作是一段很特别的经历——不只是和克洛伊一起改剧本，当你走进片场，才会意识到，其实你是在和几百个人一起工作。
But it was such an interesting experience to collaborate with so many, but not just with Chloe on the script, but, you know, when you step on the film set, you realize that actually you're collaborating with hundreds of people.
片场上的每个人，无论负责灯光、布景、服装、道具还是表演，都是各自领域里的顶尖高手。你要是抱着改编必须和原著一模一样的期待，那肯定会失望。
And everybody on that set is absolutely at the top of their game in whatever their specialty is, you know, whether it's lighting or rigging or costumes or set design or acting or you know, I think you can't go into the process of adaptation expecting it to be the same as your book, because you will be disappointed.
它永远不可能和原著一样。
It it could never be the same.
这是完全不同的媒介，电影的语言比文字语言要年轻得多。
It's a completely different medium, and the language of cinema is so much younger than the written language.
所以某种程度上，它确实不一样，但正因如此才好。
So in a way, it it it's different, but it needed to be different, and that's a good thing.
它更像是与小说并列存在，而不是对小说的复制。
It sits alongside the novel rather than as a replica of it.
你的书《Land》已经被制作过《Hamnet》的那家公司买下了改编权。
Your book, Land, has been optioned by the same company that made Hamnet.
我不知道他们会不会找你，但如果你来写这部电影的剧本，你会愿意吗？
Would you I don't know if they're they would ask you, but would you be willing to write the screenplay for that book adaptation as well?
如果我不参与，我觉得自己很难接受。
I think I'd find it hard if I didn't.
我不太愿意把这部作品交给别人来处理。
I don't think I would want to give it to someone else.
这故事太贴近我的内心了，非常私人，因为它讲的是我家人的事，是的。
It's such a it's a Stowell story, so close to my heart, and so personal in a way, because it's about my family Mhmm.
或者说是基于我家人的生活经历。
Or it's based on the lives of my family.
所以我觉得，我很难把它交出去。
So I think I would find it hard to hand over.
那我们先休息一下。
Well, let's take a short break here.
如果你刚加入我们，我们的嘉宾是玛吉·奥法雷尔。
If you're just joining us, our guest is Maggie O'Farrell.
她的新小说叫《土地》。
Her new novel is Land.
广告后继续。
More after break.
这里是《清新空气》。
This is fresh air.
玛吉，你2017年上过这个节目，聊过你的回忆录，但我最近读了其中几章，想和你聊聊，不知道你介不介意。
Maggie, you were on the show in 2017 talking about your memoir, but I just had a a couple chapters I wanted to talk to you about, if that's okay.
其中一章讲的是你童年时患脑炎，差点丧命，还留下了长期的空间感知困难。
One in which you talk about your childhood encephalitis that almost killed you and left you with lifelong spatial challenges.
你后来一直受口吃困扰，这也是其中一个挑战。
One of the challenges that you've you dealt with was you were left with a stammer.
你三十多岁的时候去看了语言治疗师，对吧？
You went to a speech therapist in your in your thirties, think.
这似乎帮了你很多。
That seems to have helped a lot.
那治疗过程中你学到了什么？
And what did you learn from the therapy?
学到了很多。
Oh, so much.
我从小孩时候就开始口吃了。
I so I started stammering as quite a young child.
小时候，表现就是典型的音节重复。
And when I was little, it manifested as the kind of classic repeated syllable.
有一阵子，我小时候还觉得，也许别人听不出来，因为家里人没什么反应。
And for a while, I think as a child, I remember thinking, maybe no one else can hear this because my family didn't react.
但没过多久，学校里就有人取笑我，那时候我才明白，原来别人真的听得见。
But then it because it wasn't long until someone at school made fun of me, and I thought, oh, okay.
不是的。
No.
他们能听见。
They can hear it.
到我十几岁的时候，不知怎么的，口吃就变成了一种完全说不出话的状态。
And by the time I was a teenager, somehow, it had kind of morphed into this complete blockage.
如果有人问我问题，我几乎……其实我是不想让那个重复的音节出现，所以就干脆把喉咙锁住了。
So if someone asked me a question, I would almost I think I was so I didn't want that repeated syllable to happen, so I just kind of locked my throat.
结果就是，我完全沉默，一句话也说不出来。
And so I did just come I would go completely silent and not be able to speak at all.
我觉得每个口吃的人，都有自己特别容易卡住的那些音。
And, you know, I think all stammerers have a collection of sounds that are problematic for them and them alone.
那些会引发口吃的音。
That trigger the stammer.
对。
Yeah.
通常都会有一些特别难发的字母、发音、双元音或者字母组合。
There's usually a kind of problem letter or a pronunciation or a diphthong or a collection of letters that's problematic.
我特别怕的是字母 m，当你叫 Maggie 的时候，这简直太难了。
One of mine was m, which is very tricky when you're famous, Maggie.
太好了。
Great.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
不是。
No.
谢谢你的理解。
Thanks for that.
所以其实，从小你就学会了如何灵活地使用语言。
So actually, what you learn to do at a very young age is you learn about the flexibility of language.
所以那时候如果有人问我，你叫什么名字？
So if somebody around that time had asked me, what's your name?
因为我一开口就发不出那个音，只好换别的音来开头，赶紧往别的地方带过去。
Because I couldn't I couldn't launch off on an sound, I would I would launch off on a different sound, and I would just try to rush into it.
所以我就会说，你叫我Maggie好了，希望这样能绕开那个难发的音。
So I would say, you can call me Maggie, and hope that I was able just to vault over the problematic.
要不是有口吃，我想我大概也不会当作家。
You know, I don't think I would be a writer unless I was also a stammerer.
口吃让你对语言特别敏感，几乎所有有口吃的孩子，几乎都能瞬间想出七八个同义词，因为你总在找最不容易卡住的表达方式。
It gives you a huge sensitivity to language, and I think anyone any child who does stammer or stutter is able to come up generally with maybe seven or eight synonyms for a word in almost instantaneously, because you're always looking for the line of least verbal resistance.
即使到现在，和人聊天时，我脑子里还在往前想好几轮。
And in a conversation, even now, I still am thinking several interlocutions ahead.
我在想，好吧。
I'm thinking, okay.
如果我得避开那个音或者那个词——现在还是很难，那我就一遍又一遍地练习，每次有公开朗读，我都提前练到烂熟。
Well, if I want to avoid that sound or that word, which is really hard even now, I practice and practice and practice and practice any kind of public reading I have to do.
我有一本专门用来朗读的书，上面划掉了那些难念的词，还给自己写了备注，提醒什么时候该换气。
And I have a special reading copy of my book, which I cross out words that are problematic, and I put notes to myself, or I remind myself when I need to breathe.
那你在写作的时候也不刻意避开这些词吗？
So you don't try to avoid those words when you're writing?
不避。
No.
说实话，这正是写作最让人开心的地方之一。
That's one of the absolute joys of writing, honestly.
所以当一个作家呢，确实是……
So being a writer is yeah.
当一个口吃者又当作家，其实挺有优势的，因为你总能灵活应对这些情况。
It's obviously, being a stammerer and a writer helps you because you are you can perform these.
从很小的时候起，你就一直在做语法和语义上的体操了。
You've been performing grammatical and semantic gymnastics since you were tiny.
但我也真的说不出来，萨姆，打字时看着那些字一个个蹦出来，那种快乐简直无法形容。
But, also, just I cannot express, Sam, the joy of typing and watching all those words.
就这样任由它们涌出来，一点都没拦着。
Just coming out with nothing to stop them.
到现在想起来，还是让我特别激动。
It's even now, gives me such a thrill.
所以我决定，其实我四十岁的时候才意识到，我真的该去接受语言治疗了。
So I decided and actually, I was 40 when I thought I really need to go and get some speech therapy.
当时我在英国的一个直播广播节目里，有人现场请我读一段我书里的内容，结果我完全没准备，表现得一塌糊涂。
And what happened was that I was on a program of live radio in Britain, and someone asked me on air to read something in one of my books, and it was so terrible because I was unexpected.
我根本没做好准备。
I wasn't prepared.
有一瞬间，现场彻底安静了，我一个字也说不出来。
And there was a moment of kind of absolute dead air where I couldn't get the words out.
主持人看着我，制作团队也盯着我。
And the presenter was looking at me, and the producers were looking at me.
说实话，直到现在
And honestly, even now,
还是特别糟糕。
it's still terrible.
这让我笑了。
That's making me smile.
是的。
Yes.
没错。
Exactly.
那场面太难堪了。
It was horrible.
那次采访结束后，我记得当时想，我不必非得说出那个名字。
And I came out of that interview, and, actually, I remember thinking, I don't have to say a name.
我只要说‘她’就行了。
I can just say she.
于是我这么做了，结果还好。
And then I did it, and it was okay.
我挺过来了。
I got through it.
但说实话，我到现在都没能完全从那件事里走出来。
But, honestly, I've never quite recovered from that.
所以我很抱歉要
So I'm sorry to
今天突然让你读一段。
spring a reading upon you today.
不用客气。
No.
没关系的。
It's fine.
因为我已经全都标好了。
Because I've got it all I've got it all marked up.
我当时就想，好吧，我真得好好处理一下了。
And I thought, okay, I really have to do something about it.
所以我去看了语言治疗师，她问我：你知道最糟糕的是什么吗？
So I did go to a speech therapist, and she said to me, you know, what's the worst thing?
我说：最糟糕的就是别人知道我结巴。
And I said, well, it's the worst thing as if I stammer.
她问：为什么呢？
And she said, but why?
你结巴，这有什么不好？
If you stammer, why is that so bad?
别人知道你结巴，为什么就那么糟糕？
Why is it so terrible that somebody knows?
她让我记一份结巴日记。
And she asked me to keep a stammering diary.
有一周我去药房取药，他们问我名字，我却怎么也说不出来。
And one of the weeks I went, I'd gone into a chemist to pick up a prescription, and they asked me my name, and I couldn't get it out.
柜台后面的女士笑了，说：哎呀，你连自己名字都忘了吗？
And the woman behind the counter laughed and said, oh, you've forgotten your own name?
我出来的时候觉得特别丢脸，就跟言语治疗师说了这件事。
And I came out feeling so humiliated, and I told the speech therapist about this.
我说，那真是我 stutter 得特别厉害的一刻。
I said, was a moment which I stammered really badly.
她说，你得直视着那个女人的眼睛，告诉她：我有口吃。
And she said, you need to look that woman in the eye, and you say, I have a stammer.
她说，我现在就要你练习一下。
And she said, I want you to practice it now.
你跟我说一遍。
Say it to me.
于是我开口说：对不起。
And so I said, I'm sorry.
我有口吃。
I have a stammer.
她说：不对。
And she said, no.
不对。
No.
别道歉。
Don't apologize.
直接说出来就行。
Just put it out there.
她说，如果药房那位女士接受不了，那是她的事，但你必须告诉她。
And she said, if the woman in the chemist can't cope with it, that's her problem, but you tell her.
坦率一点。
Be upfront about it.
这其实是个很简单建议，但我想，小时候和青春期时，我们早就习惯了隐藏它，总觉得自己得瞒着别人，怕人知道我口吃。
And it was I mean, it's such a simple piece of advice, but I think we you know, as a child and as a teenager, you become so used to hiding it and so used to thinking, I need to conceal this from people because people might find out I have a stammer.
直到我41岁，才有人对我说：没关系。
You know, it took me until I was 41 for someone to say, it's okay.
直接告诉别人就行了。
Just tell people.
你在书里提到脑炎留下的长期影响，以及它们每天给你带来的困扰。
In the book, you list the lingering effects from your encephalitis, and the challenges it presents to you on a daily basis.
比如，上下楼梯都很困难。
Like, know, it's hard to walk up and down stairs.
想伸手去拿桌上的东西，也很难准确定位。
It's hard to direct your hand to pick things up on a table.
你说特别头疼的是，桌上摆满杯子、刀叉这些东西的时候。
You say you're particularly challenged when there's a table set with lots of cups and knives and stuff
没错，最讨厌这种情况。
like Yeah, hate that.
你进步这么大，以前还一度以为再也离不开轮椅了。
And you improved so much, like, thought you would never get out of a wheelchair at one point.
但后来你能走了，却好像总是刻意不让别人看出这些困难。
But when you were able to, you really seemed to hide these difficulties from other people.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得你年轻时只告诉过一个人。
I think you only told one person as a young adult.
你为什么要隐藏这一部分的自己？
What was your reason for hiding that part of you?
嗯，我大约13岁的时候从威尔士搬到了苏格兰。
Well, I think I moved from Wales to Scotland when I was about 13.
在威尔士的时候，我学校里的每个人都清楚我得过一场重病，休学了很长时间——整整好几年，后来我回来了，整个人都不一样了。
And I where I lived in Wales, everybody I was at school with knew that I had had this very serious illness, and that I had been off school for a really long time, I mean, years, and that I'd returned, and I'd been quite different.
我觉得这次搬家给了我重新开始的机会。
And I think I thought of that move as a chance to start again.
所以我一直特别留意这一点。
So I was always very conscious.
我总是意识到，人人都知道我经历过那样可怕的事。
I was always conscious that everybody knew that this terrible thing had happened to me.
我知道，只要我换个国家、换所学校，就可以装作只是体育不太好而已。
And I knew that when I if I moved countries and I moved schools, that I could just pass myself off as somebody who was just not very good at sport.
我觉得我可以做到。
And I thought I could do that.
我可以彻底重新开始。
I could just completely start again.
青春期的孩子，最不想被人看出与众不同。
So, obviously, when you're a teenager, the last thing you want is something to mark you out.
我就跟爸妈说，别让任何人知道。
So I just said to my mom and dad, I don't want anyone to know.
我想把那段经历彻底放下。
I want to, you know, just be I put that behind me.
那时候我觉得，作为青少年，真能把过去抛在脑后。
And I think I thought, as a teenager, I could do that, that you can put it behind you.
简直就像希望它从来没发生过一样。
Almost you could wishfully undo it somehow.
希望能把它从自己的人生里抹掉。
You could wishfully edit it out of your life.
但当然，你是做不到的。
But of of course, you can't do that.
那你花了这么长时间隐藏这部分自己，最后却在回忆录里向成千上万人坦白，这对你来说意味着什么？
What does it mean though for you to have spent so much time, like, hiding this part of yourself, only to reveal it to thousands of people in a memoir?
我以前从来没真正谈过这事，写过嘛——我倒是写过，但用的是小说的形式。
Well, I never really talked about it before, written about mean, I'd written about it in fiction.
我把那段病痛的经历给了别人。
I I wrote about that illness, so I gave it to someone else.
我把它安在一个角色身上，写进了我的一本书《你我之间的距离》，我想，那算是我开始思考和剖析这件事的起点。
I gave it to a character and someone else in one of my books called The Distance Between Us, which I suppose was a kind of start into thinking about it or analyzing it.
但我觉得，随着年纪增长，你会明白，你根本没法把过去的自己抛在身后，那些曾经的你，都会像俄罗斯套娃一样，一直留在你心里。
But I think I realized that it isn't something you know, as you get older, I think you realize that it you can't really leave these selves behind, that they all travel along inside you like those matryoshka dolls.
所以我才说了出来。
So I spoke yeah.
我觉得，你对这些事的态度，其实一直在变，对吧？
I I think your attitude to these things changes all the time, doesn't it?
不管你处在生命中的哪个阶段，看事情的角度都会不一样。
The the way wherever you are on the the continuum of your life, you you you look at things differently.
你还会觉得自己是个曾经躲过多次生死关头的人吗？
Do you still sort of think of yourself in that in the way of someone who has avoided these brushes with death?
会的。
I do.
我总觉得特别幸运，小时候我差点死了，但最终没死。
It may I feel like somebody who's incredibly fortunate that I or did almost die when I was a child, but I didn't.
你知道的。
You know?
他们说我会再也走不了路，可我最后还是站起来了。
And I was told that I wouldn't be able to walk again, but I did.
这两件事加在一起，简直像中了一千次彩票。
And that really feels as though I've won a thousand lotteries and for both those reasons.
所以我到现在还是这种感觉，觉得我拥有的这一切，都是意外的馈赠。
So I still feel like that, and I feel that I the life I have has been a huge bonus.
所以我总觉得，必须把每一天都过得淋漓尽致，不辜负这来之不易的生活。
And so I just feel I have to make the most of it and live it to the absolute fullest.
感谢您今天做客我们的节目，Maggie O'Farrell。
Well, Maggie O'Farrell, thank you so much for coming on today.
这真是我的荣幸。
That's my pleasure.
再次邀请我，真的非常感谢。
Thank you so much for having me again.
Maggie O'Farrell 与《新鲜空气》的执行制片人萨姆·布里格斯进行了对话。
Maggie O'Farrell spoke with Fresh Air's executive producer, Sam Brigger.
她的新小说名为《土地》。
Her new novel is called Land.
接下来，莫琳·科里根将点评玛丽·比尔德的新书《对话经典》。
Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews Mary Beard's new book, Talking Classics.
您正在收听的是《新鲜空气》。
This is fresh air.
玛丽·比尔德在剑桥大学教了大半辈子古典学，但她也参与过许多广受欢迎的电视节目和书籍，受众非常广泛。
Mary Beard taught classics for most of her life at Cambridge, but her career has also included popular TV shows and books that reach a wide audience.
我们的书评人莫琳·科里根说，比尔德的新书《对话古典》让我们对古代世界以及我们自身有了更深的理解。
Our book critic Maureen Corrigan says, Beard's latest book, Talking Classics, illuminates a lot about the ancient world and our own.
酒入喉，爱入眼。
Wine comes in at the mouth and love comes in at the eye.
这句话出自叶芝的一首诗，诗名恰如其分地叫《饮酒歌》。
That's a line from a Yeats poem appropriately entitled a drinking song.
对这位杰出的古典学者玛丽·比尔德来说，爱情确实是在那一眼中悄然降临的。
Love did indeed come in at the eye for the distinguished classic scholar Mary Beard.
在她新书《对话古典》中，比尔德回忆了自己童年时，母亲带她第一次去伦敦的场景。她出生在英国一个中产阶级的村庄，那是在1960年。
In her new book called Talking Classics, Beard, who grew up middle class in an English village, recalls being taken as a child by her mother for her first visit to London in 1960.
她们在大英博物馆里闲逛，停下来观看木乃伊。
They wandered through the British Museum and stopped to see the mummies.
但比尔德对一个展柜里的日常用品产生了兴趣，其中有一块四千年前的面包。
Beard, however, became curious about a display case featuring everyday objects, including a 4,000 year old piece of bread.
贝德的母亲试着把她抱高一点，好让她看得更清楚。
Beard's mother tried to lift her up for a closer look.
但贝德自己用一种幽默的口吻承认——这种幽默让她赢得了数百万读者和电视观众的喜爱——那会儿她是个又重又爱扭动的小孩，根本抱不起来。
But as Beard confesses in the droll way that has endeared her to millions of readers and television audiences, the attempt failed because I was a heavy and wiggly child.
这时，一位友善的馆员走过来，从口袋里掏出钥匙，打开展柜，把那块四千年前的面包举到小玛丽·贝德眼前。
Along came a kindly curator who drew keys out of his pocket, unlocked the case, and held the ancient piece of bread in front of little Mary Beard's eyes.
贝德说，这段经历正是古希腊人所说的‘thauma’，也就是一种惊奇与震撼的感觉。
As Beard says, that experience was what the ancient Greeks would have called a moment of thauma, meaning wonder or wonderment.
我不觉得这样说太过浪漫：玛丽·贝德这一生，一直在打开通往远古的大门，激发我们所有人内心的那份惊奇。
I don't think it's fanciful to say that Mary Beard has spent her life unlocking the deep past and encouraging thauma in the rest of us.
《对话古典》这本书的大部分内容，都源自贝德2023年在芝加哥大学做的四场讲座。
Most of Talking Classics is drawn from four lectures Beard gave at the University of Chicago in 2023.
如果你一听到‘讲座’这两个字就想溜走，那你还不了解贝德的风格。
If the word lectures makes you wanna head for an exit door, you don't know Mary Beard's style.
她是一位公共知识分子，会用‘混蛋’这种词来形容麦迪的丈夫，也劝大家在看待古代世界时，别那么一本正经地顶礼膜拜。
This is a public intellectual who uses terms like slime bag to describe Madea's husband and who advises everyone to dial down the pious reverence when considering the ancient world.
贝德对古典学研究中那种排他性的倾向也毫无好感，更不认同那些她称之为‘柱子派’的保守传统主义者——他们总想在现代城市里建起古典风格的建筑，就因为觉得这样能显得有权威。
Beard also has little love for the exclusionary side of studying the classics or for those conservative traditionalists she dubs the column crowd who want to erect classical architecture in contemporary cities because of the authority it appears to exude.
这本书里，贝德提出的一个重要问题是：古典建筑和雕塑，是否因为曾被墨索里尼，或是当今极右种族主义团体滥用，而彻底玷污了？
One of the many hard questions Beard considers in this book is whether classical architecture and statuary are irredeemably tainted by the uses to which they've been put by, say, Mussolini or today's far right racist groups.
贝德提醒我们，古典学里同样蕴含着颠覆性的革命力量。
Beard reminds us that there's also radical disruptive power in the classics.
她提到的那些对古典学有深厚理解的革命者，包括卡尔·马克思、纳尔逊·曼德拉、埃尔德里奇·克莱弗，还有鲍比·西尔。
Among the revolutionaries she names with more than a foothold in classics are Karl Marx, Nelson Mandela, Eldridge Cleaver, and Bobby Seale.
贯穿贝德这本小书、也贯穿她整个学术生涯的核心问题，是她曾说，自己上学时几乎被彻底灌输得忘了的问题。
The overarching question about the ancient world that structures Beard's slim little book and her life's work is one that she says was very nearly drummed out of me when I was a student.
当时的人，到底过的是什么样的日子？
What on earth was it like to be there?
我觉得，这个问题也正是驱动当代不断重新想象古代世界的核心动力。
I'd say it's also the question that powers the geyser of contemporary reimaginings of the ancient world.
比如玛德琳·米勒的小说《伊利亚特》和《喀耳刻》，还有即将上映的克里斯托弗·诺兰电影《奥德赛》。
Among them, novels like the song of Achilles and Circe, both by Madeline Miller, as well as the forthcoming Christopher Nolan film, the odyssey.
尽管她珍视与远古时代的联系，但比尔德提醒我们，古典世界也常常令人完全陌生，有时甚至难以理解。
As much as she treasures connection with the deep past, Beard cautions us that the classical world is also unthinkingly alien, sometimes almost incomprehensible.
这种差异甚至渗透到对身体、自我这些日常概念的理解，以及像‘我是谁’这样最基本的问题上。
It goes right down to everyday ideas about the body, the self, and to such basic questions as, who am I?
别忘了，比尔德说，在古代，大多数人根本不知道自己长什么样，只能从水池里晃动的倒影，或者一块打磨过的青铜、银器上看到模糊的轮廓。
Don't forget, Beard says, that most people in antiquity would have no clue what they looked like except from their wavering reflection in a pool of water or from a dull outline on a piece of polished bronze or silver.
难怪古代的笑话大多都围绕着认错身份展开。
No wonder so many ancient jokes hinged on issues of mistaken identity.
坦白说，比尔德认为，学习古典学，更广义地说，接受人文教育的最大价值，可以用她从一位同事那里听来的一句话来概括：古典学教会你读懂难懂的东西。
The payoff, to put it bluntly, of studying classics and more broadly of a humanities education is, according to Beard, best encapsulated in a phrase she gleaned from a colleague who said, classics teaches you to read difficult things.
比尔德进一步指出，在当今这个充斥着回避事实、虚假报道、阴谋论、假新闻和赤裸裸谎言的世界里，能够读懂复杂文本的能力，正是社会最需要的技能。
Beard goes on to elaborate that in a global environment of fact dodging, misreporting, conspiracy theories, fake news, and outright lies, skills in reading difficult things are those that the world most needs.
就像童年时让玛丽·比尔德着迷的那块古埃及面包一样，《对话古典》也为读者提供了丰富的思考素材。
Like that ancient hunk of Egyptian bread that fascinated Mary Beard as a child, Talking Classics offers readers plenty to chew on.
莫琳·科里根是乔治城大学的文学教授。
Maureen Corrigan is a professor of literature at Georgetown University.
她评析了玛丽·比尔德的《对话古典》。
She reviewed Talking Classics by Mary Beard.
明天在《新鲜空气》节目中，当教皇利奥十世的克里奥尔血统——祖籍新奥尔良，祖父母迁居芝加哥后改换种族身份为白人——被披露时，记者苏珊·萨尔尼立刻认出了这个故事。
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, when Pope Leo was revealed to have Creole roots in New Orleans and grandparents who changed their racial identity to white after settling in Chicago, journalist Susan Salney recognized the story.
一个世纪前，她的叔祖父爱德华也做过同样的事。
Her great uncle Edward had done the same thing a century ago.
她将向我们讲述她如何揭开他的人生，以及那个撕裂了她家庭的秘密。
She'll tell us what she discovered about his life and the secret that broke her family in half.
希望您能收听。
I hope you'll join us.
想了解节目动态和访谈精华，请在 Instagram 关注我们：NPR Fresh Air。
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
《新鲜空气》的执行制片人是萨姆·布里格。
Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.
我们的技术总监兼工程师是奥德丽·本瑟姆。
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
我们的访谈和书评由菲利斯·迈尔斯、罗伯塔·肖洛克、安妮·玛丽·博尔迪纳托、劳伦·克伦泽尔、特蕾莎·马登、莫妮克·纳扎雷特、西娅·查隆纳、安娜·鲍曼和尼科·冈萨雷斯·惠斯勒制作与编辑。
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Anne Marie Boldinato, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Anna Baumann, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
我们的数字媒体制作人是莫莉·C。
Our digital media producer is Molly C.
V。
V.
内斯珀。
Nesper.
今天节目的导演是苏珊·亚昆迪。
Susan Yakundi directed today's show.
我们的联合主持人是塔尼娅·莫斯利。
Our cohost is Tanya Mosley.
我是特里·格罗斯。
I'm Teri Gross.
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