本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
在最新一期的《情报与方法》节目中，谈到了伊朗战争这一周的剧烈波动。
On the latest episode of sources and methods, a week of whiplash in the Iran war.
美国刚护航船只通过霍尔木兹海峡，转眼又撤了回来。
The US escorting ships through the Strait Of Hormuz then just as quickly not.
这让我想起电影《大白鲨》。
Reminds me of the movie Jaws.
还记得那个市长说，喂。
Remember the mayor said, hey.
一切都很顺利。
Everything's great.
赶紧回水里去吧。
Go back in the water.
这到底意味着什么
What it
对整体战局和油价又会有什么影响。
all means for the wider war and for gas prices.
本周《消息来源与方法》，来自NPR的国家安全播客。
This week on sources and methods, the national security podcast from NPR.
这里是《新鲜空气》。
This is fresh air.
我是特里·格罗斯。
I'm Terry Gross.
还有谁不知道哈里森·福特是谁吗？
Is there anyone who doesn't know who Harrison Ford is?
大概没有吧。
Probably not.
他演过《星球大战》原版和续集、《夺宝奇兵》系列，还有《银翼杀手》，怎么可能没人认识他呢？
Not after starring in the original and the sequels of Star Wars, the Indiana Jones movies, and Blade Runner.
他都八十多了，但过去三年里，你可能在《夺宝奇兵：命运转盘》《黄石前传：1923》，还有他目前正在演的《减压》里都见过他。
He's in his eighties, but in the last three years, you might have seen him in the final Indiana Jones film, The Dial of Destiny, the prequel to Yellowstone called 1923, and his current series, Shrinking.
《减压》已经播到第三季，在Apple TV上可以看，而且第四季也已经续订了。
Three seasons of Shrinking are streaming on Apple TV, and it's been renewed for a fourth.
他饰演一位名叫保罗的心理治疗师，负责一家由两位其他治疗师组成的诊所，分别是杰森·塞格尔饰演的吉米和杰西卡·威廉姆斯饰演的加比。
He plays a therapist, Paul, who heads a practice that includes two other therapists, Jimmy played by Jason Segal, and Gabby played by Jessica Williams.
保罗的年纪已经到了大多数人该退休的阶段，但他并不想退出。
Paul is at an age where most people have retired, but he doesn't want to.
可与此同时，他又在想，也许自己真该退了。
At the same time, he thinks maybe he needs to.
他患有帕金森病。
He has Parkinson's disease.
起初症状还比较轻微，但现在已经加重了。
At first, the symptoms were relatively minor, but they've progressed.
他的手抖得厉害，连挤牙膏到牙刷上都变得很困难。
His hands shake so much, it's difficult to put the toothpaste onto the toothbrush.
更麻烦的是，这影响了他的工作——他和病人谈话时，手抖得根本没法做笔记。
Even more problematic because it affects his work, his shaky hands are making it difficult to take notes when he's talking with patients.
迈克尔·J·福克斯在几集中饰演了一位帕金森病情更严重、情绪非常低落的病人。
Michael j Fox is in a couple of episodes playing a man who has a more advanced case of Parkinson's and is very depressed.
他们第一次见面是在医生办公室，两人都在那儿看病。
They first meet at a doctor's office where they're both patients.
保罗是个很有天赋的治疗师，但他很难表达情感，而且性格偏悲观、爱讽刺。
Paul is a gifted therapist, but it's hard for him to express emotion, and he has a dark and cynical sense of humor.
在第三季的这一幕里，保罗因为尿路感染引发幻觉，休了一段时间后重返工作岗位。
In this scene from the current season, season three, Paul has returned to work after taking some time off because a UTI was causing hallucinations.
这场戏发生在他复工的第一天。
So this scene is from his first day back at work.
他告诉吉米，也许自己该退休了。
He's telling Jimmy he thinks it might be time to retire.
以前，保罗曾让吉米，如果觉得他该退休了，就直接告诉他。
In the past, Paul had asked Jimmy to tell him when he thought it was time.
现在，杰森·塞加尔饰演的吉米先开了口。
Now Jason Siegel's character Jimmy speaks first.
嘿。
Hey.
你复职第一天感觉怎么样？
How's your first day back?
特别好。
Really great.
我觉得我该退休了，不再当治疗师了。
Think it's time for me to stop being a therapist.
你觉得呢，保罗？
Do you, Paul?
这种招数我不会再上当两次了。
I'm not gonna fall for that one twice.
不。
No.
我是认真的。
I'm serious.
我之前离开又回来，就是为了看清楚，现在真的该走了，吉米。
I took going away and coming back to see it, but it's time, Jimmy.
我该告诉你，时候到了。
I'm supposed to tell you that it's time.
你要是想这么说，那就说吧。
Oh, you can do that if you want.
保罗，该退休了。
It's time for you to retire, Paul.
好吧。
Okay.
这跟我原来想的完全不一样。
Not the way I saw this going in my head.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我会想你的。
I'm gonna miss you.
你对我而言意义太重大了。
You mean so, so much to me.
我一直想告诉你一件事，我现在要说的是，呃……
Always wanted to tell you this one thing that I'm gonna say Oh,
天哪，吉米。
Jesus, Jimmy.
求你了。
Please.
我现在不会走的。
I'm not leaving now.
我还得通知一些病人。
I got patients to notify.
还得安排新的转诊。
I got new referrals to make.
这个诊所收尾至少得花几个月。
It'll take months to wind down this practice.
告别只有一次机会，但不是今天。
You only get to say goodbye once, and it's not today.
来吧。
Come on.
回家路上我想吃披萨。
I want pizza on the way home.
走吧。
Let's go.
走吧。
Let's go.
哈里森·福特，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。
Harrison Ford, welcome to Fresh Air.
能和您对话真是荣幸。
It's such an honor to speak with you.
感谢您莅临。
Thank you for being here.
你真是太客气了。
Oh, all kind of you.
谢谢你能邀请我。
Thank you for having me.
有些人很惊讶，你都八十多岁了还在继续演戏。
Some people are surprised that you're continuing to act, you know, in your eighties.
保罗说，他的帕金森病加重后，本打算退休，但他表示，我比什么都爱我的工作，没有它，我都不知道自己是谁。
And Paul says, after his Parkinson's has gotten worse and he's thinking of retiring, he says, I love my job more than anything, and I don't know who I am without it.
你有同感吗？还是说，离开工作，你依然清楚自己是谁？
Do you relate to that, or do you know who you are without your work?
是的。
Yeah.
我想我是有同感的。
I guess I do.
如果没有工作，我真不知道自己该做些什么。
But without my work, I really wouldn't know what to do with myself, really.
那您的时间怎么安排呢？
With your time?
嗯，
Well,
我倒是可以找些事做，但真不知道还有什么能像现在这份工作一样，给我这么大的满足感和挑战性。
I suppose I could I could fill my time, but I don't know what else I might do that would give me the kind of satisfaction and the kind of challenge that the work I'm doing does give me.
我真的特别喜欢这份工作。
I really do love the work.
我完全理解。
I don't blame you.
听起来确实特别有成就感。
It seems like it would be so fulfilling.
这份工作一直在变，人也在变，目标和机会也都不一样。
Well, it's it constantly changes, and and the people change, and the mission and the opportunity change.
这就让生活变得特别有意思。
And it just makes for an interesting way to live your life.
我很欣赏你演自己这个年纪的角色，因为总有人让漂亮的女演员演丑角色，就只是少化点妆，可她明明一点都不丑。
And I love that you play your age because it's frustrating when, like, a beautiful woman plays somebody who's ugly by just not wearing as much makeup, but she's never ugly.
或者让年轻人演老人，非得戴一堆假体。
Or a younger person has to play an older person by putting on prosthetics.
我们身边有那么多外形和角色天然匹配的优秀演员，为什么不直接用他们呢？
Like, we have talented people who look like they're supposed to look.
能不能就按演员本来的样子来选角？
Can we cast them, please?
我在拍《夺宝奇兵》的时候，也经历过被技术变年轻的过程。
Well, I I felt that way when I was de aged in Indiana Jones.
不过有时候这种处理确实有效，我觉得《夺宝奇兵》里那段变年轻的效果就挺自然的。
But it sometimes it works, and I I thought it worked in Indiana Jones, that de aging part.
但我很乐意做现在的自己，一点也不想掩饰自己的年纪。
But I I I'm happy to be the age I am, and I have no impulse to hide it.
说到《夺宝奇兵》，《命运转盘》是2023年上映的吧？
Well, speaking of Indiana Jones, so Dial of Destiny was, like, 2023 it was released.
而且你知道的，你在里面依然表现得超级强壮又敏捷。
And, you know, you're still, like, super strong and agile in that.
然后没过多久，你又得去演那个变小的角色。
And then you had to go from that to not long after doing shrinking.
所以在演那个变小的角色时，你因为帕金森病，身体状态其实受到了限制。
And so in shrinking, you're physically compromised because of the Parkinson's disease.
对你来说，从动作英雄那种强壮的状态，变成手抖得连笔记都记不住，这感觉怎么样？
What was it like for you and your body to be action hero strong and then your hand is shaking too much to take notes?
嗯，我的意思是，得从角色的内心开始。
Well, I mean, starts with the head of the character.
他脑子里在想什么，他的精神状态是怎样的。
What's in his head, what's in his mind.
我一直都很注重角色的外在表现。
And I've always aware of this physicalization of a character.
帕金森病或者它带来的各种症状，确实有助于塑造保罗这个角色。
And the Parkinson's or the various symptoms of Parkinson's do help characterize Paul.
所以这反而给了我们一个机会，用另一种方式去塑造这个角色。
And so it's a, you know, it's an opportunity to use another means, to create the character.
迈克尔·J·福克斯出演了这部剧，你们在诊所里见面了。
Michael j Fox is in the series, and you meet at a doctor's office.
他当时情绪很低落。
He's really depressed.
他有没有给你一些演这个角色的建议？
Did he give you advice about how to play the role?
没有。
And did Nope.
真的吗？
Really?
你都没问他要建议？
You didn't ask him for advice?
没有。
No.
因为每个病例都不一样，而我的情况还没被完全告诉我。
Because every case is different, and my case is not yet described to me fully.
我的编剧们在写作过程中会逐步呈现症状和特征。
My writers present symptomology and and characteristics as they are writing.
所以我其实是根据最近一次描述的症状来体验这个角色的。
And so I'm sort of living with the symptoms I have been last described as having.
是的。
Yeah.
帕金森病的影响是全面的，但具体表现因人而异，它涉及很多方面，每个人受影响的项目和程度都不一样。
I mean, the thing about Parkinson's is that it affects everything, but it affects different parts of like, there's a whole long list of things it affects, but everybody gets a different number of them and a different variation of them.
没错。
Right.
没错。
Right.
震颤是所有人都会有的症状。
So Tremors, I do everybody gets.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，作为一个真正的帕金森病患者，我真的不知道接下来会发生什么。
So like a like a true Parkinson's patient, I don't really know what's coming.
这挺有意思的。
Oh, that's interesting.
你是说，编剧们接下来会给你的症状安排什么新变化？
You mean, like, what the writers have in store for you in terms of your symptoms?
对。
Yeah.
我大概能感觉到这一季病情会发展到什么程度，但具体细节还没定下来。
I I you know, we I have a general sense of of how far it goes this season, but nothing specific yet.
我们节目的运作方式就是这样的。
And that's that's just the way our show works.
我们通常能提前几周拿到剧本，如果运气好的话；但大多数时候，也就提前几天或者一周。
We we get a script probably, if we're lucky, couple weeks ahead of time, but normally, maybe just a couple of days or a week ahead of time.
演这个角色有没有让你对身体有新的认识，想象一下如果无法控制自己的动作会是什么感觉？
Did playing a role make you think about your body in a new way and think of what it would be like to not be able to control your movements?
没有特别想过。
Not specifically.
说实话，没有。
To be honest, no.
有些方面我其实还没怎么细想。
There's parts of it I haven't thought through yet, really.
我觉得，如果我真的得了帕金森病，可能反应也会差不多。
And I I think that might be similar to how I might react if I did have Parkinson's.
有些事我想知道，有些事我宁愿不知道。
I would wanna know certain things and other things I would just not wanna know.
是为了避免一直纠结这些事吗？
So as to not obsess on them?
是为了不去刻意寻找这些迹象。
So as to not be looking for them.
就
Just
对。
Right.
知足常乐。
Be happy enough with what you got.
是的。
Mhmm.
保罗这个角色有着非常愤世嫉俗的幽默感。
Paul, your character, has a very cynical sense of humor.
他特别搞笑，总爱说些阴暗的俏皮话，而你本人也特别有幽默感。
He's really funny, very, like, dark retorts, and you have a very funny sense of humor.
我听过你在康南播客里的表现，你和康南还有整个团队笑得特别厉害。
I heard you on Conan's podcast, and you and Conan and, like, the whole team laugh, like, so much and so hard.
你会不会故意加点笑点，或者自己编些搞笑台词？因为说实话，你的幽默感真的特别棒。
Do you ever punch up your lines or add, like, funny lines because, honestly, like, your sense of humor is so good?
当然。
Sure.
临时会有改动，但我们有一流的编剧团队。
Stuff comes up, and we have really good writers.
我很欣赏他们提供的创意。
And and I love what they have to offer.
而且，拍摄现场氛围很开放，我可以随时提出自己的想法。
And but, you know, it's a collaborative atmosphere, and I feel free to bring up any idea I have.
你能想起哪句是你在电影里加进去的吗？比如在《星球大战》里——
Can you think of a line that you added in one of your movies or in in Oh,
最出名的、最能说明问题的，是《星球大战》里莉亚公主对我说她爱我，我回了一句：我知道。
I guess the most famous the the one most well known and perhaps illustrative of of where it comes from is the line in Star Wars where Princess Leia tells me that she loves me and I say, I know.
我知道。
I know.
本来剧本上写的是‘我也爱你’，但我改成了‘我知道’。
Instead of saying, I love you too, which is the scripted line.
简单来说，我当时就是想更贴近角色本身。
Simply, the impulse was to be more in character.
乔治·卢卡斯写了那句原台词，对我没按原样说有点不高兴。
And George Lucas, who had written the line, was not so not so happy that I didn't give him the the original version.
但我真的特别坚持自己的想法。
But I really felt strongly about it.
于是他让我陪他坐在旧金山一家影院里，一起看试映。
So he made me sit next to him when he previewed the film in a public movie theater in San Francisco.
观众笑了，而且是真心大笑的那种。
And it got a laugh, but it got a good laugh.
他最后也就接受了，没改回去。
And so he he accepted it and left it in.
那现在 Juan 要演《疗愈》里的另一个片段，是第一季的。
So Juan has to play another scene from Shrinking, and this is from the first season.
我觉得应该是第一集，也就是试播集。
I I I think it's the pilot, actually.
吉米是保罗办公室里的一位治疗师，由杰森·塞格尔饰演，他特别烦那些明明告诉他得改、得停下让自己痛苦的事，却还是不改的病人。
So Jimmy, who's one of the therapists in Paul's office, and he's played by Jason Segal, he's really annoyed with his patients for not changing when he's told them they have to change and stop doing the thing that's making them miserable.
但这其实反映的是他内心的混乱和悲痛——他妻子一两年前在车祸中去世，他一直没能走出来。
But this is just an expression of his disorientation and grief because his wife died a year or two ago in a car crash, and and he hasn't recovered.
自从她走后，他就再也没恢复成原来的自己。
He hasn't been himself since her death.
这段戏是他跟你的角色保罗谈话，解释自己为什么这么生气。
So this is the scene where he's talking to your character, Paul, and explaining why he's so angry.
另外，你还会听到杰西卡·威廉姆斯演的治疗师加比，还有哈里森·福特。
And, also, you'll hear Jessica Williams as therapist, Gabby, and Harrison Ford.
你先说。
You speak first.
嘿，小子。
Hey, kid.
最近怎么样？
How are you doing?
我挺正常的，你知道的。
I'm normal, you know.
就是普通的一天。
It's a normal day.
普普通通的一天。
Normal day.
在照常进行。
Doing it.
就按平常的方式做着。
Doing it normal style.
嘿。
Hey.
保罗，你猜我刚才在想什么？
You know what I was thinking, Paul?
是不是在想你只是按平常的方式在做？
Is it about how you're just doing it normal style?
什么？
What?
你在想什么？
What are you thinking?
你们有没有遇到过这种情况，对病人气得不行，突然就想狠狠摇他们一顿？
You guys ever get so mad at your patients that all of a sudden, you just wanna, like, fuck, shake them.
我们可不会摇他们。
Well, we don't shake them.
对。
No.
我知道。
I know.
我知道。
I know.
我其实挺希望他们能好起来的。
I I I'm rooting for them.
我是真的在为他们加油。
I am.
我心里想着：加油啊，你一定能行的。
I'm like, come on, you up person.
你一定能改变的。
You can change.
可他们就是从来不改。
And then they just never do.
同情心疲劳。
Compassion fatigue.
谁都难免遇到这种瓶颈。
We all hit those walls.
是的。
Yeah.
你问问题，你认真听，保持不评判，别摆出那种表情。
You ask questions, you listen, you stay nonjudgmental, and you don't make that face.
不好意思。
Sorry.
你看，我们其实都知道他们该怎么做。
It's just look, we know what they should do.
你知道为什么吗？
You know why?
因为这其实很简单。
Because it's pretty simple.
我做这件事的时候会感到难过。
I get sad when I do this thing.
那可能就别做这件事了。
Maybe don't do that thing.
答案我们早就知道了。
We know the answer.
你难道从来不觉得就想逼他们照着做吗？
Don't you ever wanna just just make them do it?
好主意。
Great idea.
我们剥夺了他们的自主权，也让他们失去了自我帮助的机会。
We just rob them of their autonomy, any chance they have to help themselves.
对吧？
Right?
那我们成了什么？
And we become what?
心理上的义警？
Psychological vigilantes?
天哪。
Oh my god.
我听得出你在调侃，但听起来还挺酷的。
I'm like sensing the sarcasm, but that sounds kind of badass.
我很喜欢这个场景。
I like that scene a lot.
所以你虽然在角色里要表现帕金森的身体症状，但自己并没有真正经历过这些？
So you haven't experienced like the body symptoms of Parkinson's even though you have to portray them in your role.
不过你拍电影时受过不少伤，包括2023年拍最后一部《夺宝奇兵》的时候。
But you have experienced a whole lot of injuries that you sustained making movies, including on your last Indiana Jones film in 2023.
我把我看到的一些情况念一遍，你确认一下是不是真的发生过。
So I'll I'll run through a list of things that I've read, and you can confirm that you've had this.
你在《夺宝奇兵2：魔宫传奇》里椎间盘破裂了。
You ruptured a disc in, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
你在《逃亡者》里拉伤了韧带。
You tore a ligament in The Fugitive.
在《星球大战：原力觉醒》里，一个液压门夹住了你，导致腿骨折、脚踝受伤。
In Star Wars, The Force Awakens, a hydraulic door closed on you and you broke your leg and injured your ankle.
在《夺宝奇兵5：命运转盘》里，排练时肩膀受伤了。
In Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny, you injured your shoulder while you were rehearsing.
那你平时是怎么应对疼痛的？
So how are you with dealing with pain?
还不错。
Pretty good.
听起来我好像特别容易出事故。
It sounds it sounds like I'm accident prone.
对我来说倒不是。
Oh, not to me.
你演的都是些危险动作的电影，受点伤也很正常。
It sounds like you're in movies where you do dangerous things, and, of course, you'd get some injuries.
是的。
Yeah.
就是跑啊、跳啊、摔啊。
It's running, jumping, falling down.
没错。
Yeah.
就是这样。
There you go.
我在办公室也这么干过。
And I gave at the office.
就这么说吧。
Let's put it that way.
哦，是因为他们逼你这么做？
Oh, because they made you do it?
不是。
No.
没人逼我做这些事。
Nobody makes me do it.
我自己决定要不要做这些事。
You know, I make the choices of whether I want to do something.
他们经常跟我说，不行，你不能这么做。
They'll often tell me, no, you can't do it.
比如，别做特技？
Like, don't do the stunt?
是的。
Yeah.
这根本不是特技。
Well, it's not a stunt.
只要是我亲自做的，那就不是特技。
If I'm doing it, it's by definition not a stunt.
但这并不意味着没有风险。
But that doesn't mean it's not risky.
我的意思是，我希望观众能真正代入角色，感受我们正在做的这件事。
Well, what it means is that I want the audience to be with the character through the activity that we're talking about.
我不希望因为是替身在演，就得藏起角色的脸。
I don't want to have to hide the face of the character because it's a stunt guy.
我想让他们感受到那一击的力量。
I want them to feel the blow.
我想让他们看到角色的紧张。
I want them to see the anxiety.
我希望他们能亲历那个决定做出的时刻，或者那个决定被错过的时刻。
I want them to be there when the decision is made or when the decision is missed.
我只是希望他们能身临其境，而我觉得，只有我自己也在场，才能带他们进入那种状态。
I I just want them to be there, and it takes me being there, to bring them along, I think.
你现实生活中最接近一场动作戏的经历是什么？
What's the closest you've come in real life to an action scene?
我想，如果我们不聊聊那起飞机事故，恐怕谁都不会满意。
I I suppose we won't be satisfied unless we talk about the airplane accident.
我刚想到，你可能会这么说。
It just occurred to me that's what you might say.
是的。
Yeah.
我这副表情，是不是天生就适合演音乐剧？
Well, I I I've got a face of music, don't I?
不过咱们先从这一点说起吧：那是一次机械故障。
But then let's just start by saying that it was a mechanical failure.
我在这里提一下，那是一架二战时期的飞机。
And I'll mention here it was a World War two vintage plane.
是的。
Yeah.
那架飞机已经有74年了。
It was a 74 year old airplane.
那时候我也正好74岁。
I was 74 years old at the time.
那天天气特别好，我刚从一次之前的事故中恢复过来。
It was a beautiful day, and I had just recovered from an earlier accident
哦。
Oh.
我跟一帮朋友去骑了山地车。
And had gone out with a bunch of guys on a mountain bike ride.
回到家后，我泡在热水浴缸里，试着说服我老婆跟我一起去兜风，因为那天实在太美了。
And I came home and sitting in the hot tub, and I tried to talk my wife into going with me for a ride because it was such a beautiful day.
她婉拒了，于是我跟女儿一起吃午饭，问她要不要一起去，她也说不去。
She demurred and I had a lunch with my daughter and asked her if she wanted to go and she said no.
于是我独自起飞，就在机场上空四百英尺的地方，引擎突然熄火了。
So I went by myself and 400 feet in the air above the airport, the engine quit.
那是我的家乡机场，我对周围的地形很熟悉——到处都是房子、电线、汽车和行人。
And it's my home airport and I was familiar with the surrounding terrain, which is cluttered with houses, wires, and cars, and people.
于是我转向了旁边的一个高尔夫球场。
So I turned to a golf course that was there.
着陆时，安全带从固定处脱开，我头部重重撞了一下，导致脑损伤。医生说我是逆行性遗忘，这是大脑的一种自我保护机制，所以我记不起当时的情景。
And when I landed, my seat belt pulled out of the place where it was secured, and so I got a major blow on the head, which resulted in a brain injury that was described to me that I didn't remember the moments because it was retrograde amnesia, a kind of protective device of the brain.
所以关于那件事，我确实记得不多。
So I don't really remember that much about it.
我记得在发出紧急求救时，塔台给我的指令我没法执行，因为高度不够，根本做不到他们建议的动作。
Remember telling the tower when I declared the emergency that the instruction they gave me was not gonna be followed because I didn't have enough altitude to do what they want suggested I do.
总之，这就是整个事情的大概经过。
Anyway, that's the story in a nutshell.
你说这是一种保护性的失忆？
So you said it was protective form of amnesia.
这样你就不会记得自己往下掉、然后撞上去的场景了，是吗？
So you wouldn't have the memory of, like, falling and and and crashing.
你为此感到庆幸吗？
Are you grateful for that?
我没在往下掉，也没撞上。
I wasn't falling and crashing.
当时我耳朵里响着一位航空导师的声音，鲍勃·霍弗，一位很有名的飞行员。他总说，遇到机械故障或者其他问题时，要尽量把飞机控制到最后一刻。
I because I I had my in my ear was the very clear voice of one of my aviation mentors, Bob Hoover, a well, a famous pilot who always, when talking about mechanical failures or other kinds of failures, the advice was to fly the airplane as far into the crash as possible.
当飞行员的，都会琢磨这句话。
Which you think about the this thing when you're a pilot.
你得时刻想着这种可能性会发生。
You think about the potential the possibility of it happening.
当然，你也会不断训练。
And, of course, you train.
所以当事情发生时，我一点都不意外。
And so when it happened, it was not really a surprise.
我知道自己该做什么，就直接开始动手处理了。
And I thought I knew what I had to do to handle it, so I just started doing the things that needed to be done.
所以你是故意把飞机开向地面，来迎接撞击？
So you drove the plane into the ground to fly into the crash?
不是。
No.
我利用重力和飞机在无动力状态下还能做的动作，尽量减轻着陆时的冲击。
I I maneuvered the airplane using, what gravity was gonna give me and what the airplane could do powered only by gravity and to to mitigate the consequence came at the ground.
我就这么做了。
So, you know, that's what I did.
我挑了个地方，正准备在那里着陆。
I just I picked a spot and was in the process of landing there.
我当时已经没能量维持升力了，所以落地并不平稳。
I had run out of energy to maintain lift, so it wasn't a smooth landing.
那更像是一次坠毁，但我没撞到任何人，而且当时周围是空地，你知道的。
It was it was more of a crash, but I had not landed on anybody else, and I had I was in a clear space, you know.
所以我已经做了该做的事。
So I'd done what I needed to do.
你当时觉得自己会死吗？
Did you think you were gonna die?
不会。
No.
我真的没这么想过。
I I did not.
引擎熄火的时候，我根本没去想那个。
When when the engine quit, I did not think.
不会。
No.
我只是专心操控飞机。
I just flew the airplane.
我其实不记得自己当时害怕过。
I don't remember actually being scared.
这太惊人了。
That's amazing.
真奇怪。
Weird.
是啊。
Yeah.
你受了哪些伤？
What were your injuries?
伤势比报纸上写的还要严重。
They were more than described in the newspaper.
不过我现在都挺过来了。
But I'm I'm over them all.
谢谢。
Thank you.
我重新拿到了驾照，还在继续飞行。
Got my license back and continue to fly.
后来你还会害怕坐飞机吗？
Were you afraid to fly at all afterwards?
不会。
No.
不会。
No.
你真是幸运，经历了这么严重的伤和飞机失事，还能这么淡定，一点都不害怕？
You're really lucky that you have a mind that can sustain all these injuries and a plane crash and just keep going and not not be afraid?
我不是不害怕，我只是没去想会有危险。
It's I don't think I'm not being afraid.
我不会让自己处在可能出事的境地。
I just I don't put myself in a situation where I think there's gonna be a adverse consequence.
我不是那种喜欢刺激的人。
I you know, I I'm I'm not I'm not a thrill seeker.
我是个非常保守的飞行员。
I was a very I am a very conservative pilot.
所以，我不是那种为了好玩就去干冒险事的人。
So, you know, it's not it's not that I do crazy stuff for the fun of it.
这正是我听战地记者说的，他们都很谨慎。
This is exactly what I hear war correspondents say, that they they're careful.
他们不会去冒不必要的风险。
They don't take unnecessary risks.
这活儿是挺脏的，但总得有人干吧。
Well, it's a dirty job, but somebody's gonna
总得有人去做。
do it.
明白了。
Okay.
该休息了。
Time for a break.
如果您刚刚加入我们的节目，我来为您重新介绍一下。
I have to reintroduce you if you're just joining us.
我们的嘉宾是哈里森·福特，他目前正在Apple TV的剧集《疗愈》中主演。
My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
这里是《新鲜空气》。
This is Fresh Air.
你好。
Hi.
我是莫莉·C·努斯伯格，是《新鲜空气》的数字制作人。
This is Molly CV Nusberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.
这位是节目主持人特里·格罗斯。
And this is Terry Gross, host of the show.
我负责撰写每周的通讯稿。
One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.
我也是订阅者。
And I'm a newsletter fan.
每周六早餐后我都会看。
I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
这份简报会整理当周所有节目、工作人员推荐，还有莫莉从档案里挑出的精彩片段。
The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
读起来特别有意思。
It's a fun read.
而且，只有在这里我们才会提前告诉你下周有什么节目，这是独家内容。
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.
赶紧去 whyy.org/freshair 订阅吧，每周六早上留意莫莉发来的邮件。
So subscribe at whyy.org/freshair, and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
你住在洛杉矶，但也在怀俄明州有个牧场，经常去哪儿待着。
So you live in LA, but you also have a ranch in Wyoming where you spend a lot of time.
你曾经说过，别人问你信仰什么，你就说大自然对你来说就是神，就是信仰。
And you've said that when you're asked about religion, you explained that nature is is the equivalent of God or religion for you.
展开剩余字幕（还有 294 条）
你是什么时候开始这样看待自然的？
When did you start thinking of nature that way?
当我需要解释为什么不去越南的时候。
When I had to explain why I was not gonna accept the invitation to go to Vietnam.
你被征召入伍了？
You're drafted?
我当时面临被征召，就请了位律师帮我向征兵委员会说明情况，得解释我为什么可能符合良心拒服兵役的条件。
I was facing being drafted, and I hired a lawyer to represent me to the draft board, and I had to explain why I might qualify as a conscientious objector.
我说明自己并没有宗教信仰的背景。
I explained that I did not have a history of religious affiliation.
我母亲是犹太人。
My mother was Jewish.
我父亲是天主教徒。
My father, Catholic.
但他们都没给我任何道德上的指引。
To give me any ethical understanding.
我是民主党人家庭长大的。
Was raised democrat.
所以我很乐意接受别人对神的理解。
So I'm quite happy to accept other people's versions of of god.
不过，我在一名叫保罗·蒂利希的新教神学家那里看到一句话，他说，如果你对“神”这个词感到别扭，那就把你生命中最核心、最有意义的事物当作神来对待。
But I I found in a Protestant theologian named Paul Tillich a sentence that said, if if you have trouble with the word god, take whatever is central and most meaningful to your life and call that god.
对我来说，那就是生命本身。
And to me, that was life itself.
大自然的复杂性、生物多样性，还有那种令人惊叹的整合与复杂程度。对。
The complexity, the biodiversity, the incredible integration and complexity of nature Right.
对我来说，这跟上帝是一回事。
To me seemed to be the same thing as God.
所以我准备了一份解释，可能太不寻常了，以至于它被塞在桌子边缘，上面还堆了一堆东西，因为它不符合任何既定的分类。
And so I prepared a explanation that was probably so unusual that it found the edge of a desk and had a lot of things piled on top of it because it didn't fit a niche.
他们基本上就没再回复我。
They never got back to me, basically.
征兵办公室也没给我回音。
The draft board never got back to me.
所以你是在芝加哥长大的？
So you grew up in Chicago.
能说说你住的那片区域吗？
Would you describe the neighborhood?
我住的地方都是公寓楼，四层高的那种。
I I lived in, you know, a neighborhood of, apartment buildings, four story apartment buildings.
我父亲在广告行业工作。
My father was working in advertising.
我们家算是中产，生活挺安稳的。
We were comfortable middle class kind of environment.
我父亲是电台演员。
My father was a radio actor
哦。
Oh.
在某个
At a
人生的阶段。
certain point in his life.
他曾在杂耍剧院的巡演中参演一档节目，和另外四五个演员一起，节目名叫《神探》。他们每周演一出不同的广播剧，跑遍杂耍剧院的巡演路线，穿着燕尾服站在麦克风前表演广播剧。
He did a show on the Vaudeville circuit with four or five other guys in the in a show that was called gangbusters, and they did a different radio play each week and traveled the Bauderville circuit, stood around a microphone in tuxedos, and did a radio play.
这就是他的演艺生涯。
That was his theatrical career.
后来他做了一点写作，然后成了电视广告的制作人和导演。
He later did a bit of writing and then became a producer and director of television commercials.
哇。
Wow.
有没有我认识的作品？
Any ones I'd recognize?
每个周末，因为我爸爸的工作，我们会去林肯公园动物园，他负责为Kennelation狗粮做现场广告。
Each weekend, because of my father's job, we would go to the Lincoln Park Zoo where he was in charge of doing live commercials for kenneleration dog food.
所以我经常跟着我爸去，那时候我经常和马龙·珀金斯待在一起，他是
And so I would go with my dad, and and I'd spend time with Marlon Perkins, who is the
哦。
Oh.
负责林肯公园动物园的人，还主持一档叫《动物园巡游》的节目，每周六播出。
Who ran the Lincoln Park Zoo and had a program called Zoo Parade, which was on every Saturday.
所以我能进到动物展区背后参观，这可能让我对自然产生了敏感和亲近。
So I got behind the scenes tours of the animal enclosures and might have been a part of my sensitizing to to nature.
我觉得确实如此。
I think it is.
我现在想放一段你获得美国演员工会终身成就奖时的讲话，那段话非常感人。
What I wanna do now is, play a speech when you got the SAG, the Screen Actors Guild Lifetime Achievement Award, and it was a very moving speech.
这是其中的一段，是最近的。
So this is an excerpt of it, and this is very recent.
上大学第三年的时候，我
In my third year of college, I was
有点迷茫。
a little lost.
我在学校里成绩很差。
I was failing at school.
我感到孤单，没人理解。
I felt isolated, alone.
后来我遇到了一群人
And then I found, the company of people
在演戏。
putting on plays.
讲故事的人。
Storytellers.
我以前觉得他们是怪人、书呆子，没想到他们才是我的同类。
People I once thought were misfits and geeks turned out to be my people.
我找到了自己的方向——投身于讲故事，通过扮演别人来定义自己。
I found a calling, a life in storytelling, an identity in pretending to be other people.
和别的演员一起工作，是我人生中最美好的事之一。
The work I do with other actors is one of the great joys of my life.
我的职业生涯建立在演员们、编剧、导演，还有所有和我一起拍过戏的演职人员的付出之上。
My career is built on their work as well as the work of writers, directors, every single cast member, every crew member I have ever been on the set with.
一路上，我遇到了无数出色的合作伙伴。
I have had incredible collaborators at every step of the way.
能把我们共同创作的作品呈现给观众，是一种荣幸，也是一种福气。
And being able to deliver the work we create together to an audience is an honor and a privilege.
正因这份福气，我才真正认识了自己。
And because of that privilege, I've come to know myself.
你刚才讲话的时候都快哭了。
You were tearing up during that speech.
你有准备好会这样吗？
Were you prepared for that?
没有。
No.
也没太有准备。
Not really.
我当时是想别这样。
I I was trying, not to do that.
那你为什么想避免这样呢？
Why why were you trying not to do it?
我只是想表达一个想法。
Just because I wanted to convey an idea.
我不想摆什么姿态。
I didn't want a posture.
你之前说，你觉得剧院里的人都是怪人、书呆子，结果他们反而成了你的同类。
So you said on that that you thought that the theater people were misfits and geeks, but they turned out to be your people.
你当初为什么觉得他们是怪人和书呆子？
What made you think of them as misfits and geeks?
哦，那纯粹是我不懂，太幼稚了。
Oh, I just ignorance, stupidity.
我不是运动员学生。
I wasn't a student athlete.
我也没参与学生会之类的校园活动。
I wasn't a student, you know, involved in student government.
我在大学的文化环境里找不到自己的位置，其实我只是在误解那些我根本不了解的人。
I did I didn't I didn't find a place in in in the college culture, you know, environment, I was just mischaracterizing people that I didn't really know.
我写的那篇演讲稿，并不是刻意要打动人心。
That speech that I wrote was not crafted to be emotional.
那番话是自然而然流露出来的。
I was it would it just happened to me.
我现在回想起来还有点不好意思，毕竟我经历过不少这样的场合，本该能掌控情绪，不至于被情绪淹没。
And and it's I feel slightly embarrassed by it because I I have enough experience with these things to be to want to want to be able to manage, not to be overcome.
但看到你真情流露，其实挺好的，因为你确实是发自内心。
It was nice to see you be overcome because you were feeling it.
你当时是真的有感触。
You were feeling it for real.
听起来一点都不做作，你知道吗？那种颁奖致辞常常装出一堆情感，听着有点过头，或者根本不像真心的。
It didn't sound like a phony, you know, a phony award address where you express all these feelings that sound kind of they can sometimes sound a little, you know, excessive or, you know, not deeply felt at the moment.
你的发言是发自内心的，大家也都被深深打动了。
Yours felt deeply felt at the moment, and people really responded to it.
大家对我特别宽容。
And people are very generous to me.
今天的嘉宾是哈里森·福特，他目前正在Apple TV的剧集《疗愈》中主演。
My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
这里是《新鲜空气》。
This is Fresh Air.
你当时演《枪战》第十八季，那之后还拍了两季。
So you were in season eighteen of Gunsmoke, and it had, like, two more seasons after that.
你并不是常驻演员。
You weren't a regular.
你出演了两集，我记得。
You were on, I think, two episodes.
那时候已经是七十年代了，之后还拍了两季。
So this is in the nineteen seventies already, and there were two more seasons after that.
你小时候看过《枪战》吗？
Did you grow up watching Gunsmoke?
没怎么看过。
Not really.
因为我爸拍电视广告，我们家是 neighborhood 里第一台有电视的。
Because my dad did television commercials, we had the first TV in our neighborhood.
我记得看过《爱德·沙利文秀》这类节目。
And I remember watching Ed Sullivan and and shows like that.
我们肯定也看过。
And I'm sure we did.
我不确定那时候《枪战》是不是在播。
I don't know if Gunsmoke was on at the time.
我觉得我那时候在电视上看到的是吉恩·奥特里。
I think I think it was Gene Autry that I was seeing on television.
我更喜欢吉恩·奥特里，因为他演的剧里有歌，他自己还会唱。
I like Gene Autry more because it has songs in it he sang.
他是个会唱歌的牛仔，跟詹姆斯·阿尼斯不一样。
And he was a singing he was a singing cowboy, unlike James Arness.
我待会儿要放一段片段，那集里你演的是个反派。
So in in the episode that I'm gonna play a clip from, you were one of the villains.
你和一伙人闯进来，目标是外出的警长迪伦。
You were one of the bad guys coming in gunning for Marshall Dillon who was out of town.
你当时在威胁路人。
And, you know, you're you're threatening people.
你还抢人家东西。
You're robbing people.
你和你的团伙控制了整个小镇，最后进了那家酒吧——那是多奇城的凯蒂小姐开的，她总在那儿。
You and your gang are taking over the town, and you you stop in the saloon where miss Kitty, who owns the saloon in Dodge City, she's always there.
当然，你一进门她肯定在那儿。
Of course, she's there when you come in.
然后你和另一个反派就在旁边故意挑衅她。
And you and another of the villains are just kinda like taunting her.
凯蒂小姐由阿曼达·布莱克饰演，她先开了口。
And so miss Kitty is played by Amanda Blake, and she speaks first.
我叫凯蒂·拉塞尔。
Name's Kitty Russell.
我的地盘。
My place.
嘿，拉塞尔小姐。
Hey, miss Russell.
你
Do you
碰巧有
happen to have
这栋漂亮的房子里怎么会有扑克牌？
a pack of cards around this here fancy house?
真糟心。
Damn.
行吧。
Alright.
走吧。
Come on.
咱们去咬人吧。
Let's get to bitten.
好。
Alright.
那就是你了。
So that's you.
真的吗？
Oh, really?
哇。
Wow.
你听不出自己的声音吗？
Well, you don't recognize your voice?
我不记得了，一点都想不起来。
I don't I I don't remember any of it.
这是暂时性失忆。
It's temporary amnesia.
原来如此。
I see.
保护，没错。
Protect Yeah.
那我确实有充分的理由。
And then I'd I'd have good reason.
你在《枪烟》里丢了两颗牙，那是你早期的伤之一。
So you lost two teeth in gunsmoke, one of your early injuries.
发生什么事了？
What happened?
我本来演反派，当时警长正走上楼梯。
I was supposed to be a bad guy, and the the sheriff was walking up the stairs.
我现在试着回想，我正朝窗外开枪，一转身就看见警长，双方就互射了起来。
I guess I'm trying to remember now, and I I was shooting out the window, and I turned and saw the sheriff, and shots were exchanged.
我中弹倒地的时候，枪掉在地上，又弹起来撞到我的牙齿，一下子就把前排好几颗牙给撞掉了。
And what happened was as I fell to the ground wounded, the gun dropped and then bounced up and hit me in the teeth and knocked out several of my teeth right in the front of my mouth.
那时候我和环球影业签了合同。
I I was under contract to Universal at the time.
于是我去了片场的牙医那儿，他帮我把牙齿修好了。
And so I went to their dentist, the studio dentist, and he fixed up my teeth.
大概两个月后，那些假牙就开始松动脱落了。
And within about two months, they started they started falling apart.
片方根本没管这事，我就去联系了那位牙医的诊所，结果发现给我治牙的医生已经离开了，他的合伙人说根本不知道人去哪儿了。
And I the studio didn't do anything about it, so I I called his office or what I and, apparently, the dentist that had worked on me had left the practice, and his partner confessed he had no knowledge of of where he'd gone.
所以我只能忍受牙齿一颗颗掉出来，还得自己掏钱装新的。
So I was stuck with teeth that were falling out of my out of my mouth, and I had to pay for my own replacements.
明明是片场请的牙医，结果你却要为他糟糕的技术买单？
Oh, even though the studio had hired the dentist, you had to pay for his shoddy work?
是的。
Yeah.
真够可以的。
Nice.
对啊。
Yeah.
没错。
Yeah.
在那之前，你是不是还待过其他几家制片公司？还是说你直接毁了合同？你总说这事儿干得对，因为他们根本没给你多少钱，而且按合同你得白干七年，报酬少得可怜。
So you worked for a couple of studios before them or you breaking the contract, which you always say was a good thing because they were hardly paying you anything, and they would have been hardly paying you anything for seven years because you had, like, a seven year contract.
也就是从那时候开始，你才开始跟斯皮尔伯格、科波拉还有乔治·卢卡斯合作的吧。
And that's when you started working with, like, Spielberg and Coppola and George Lucas.
让我觉得有意思的是，你之前在制片厂有过不好的经历，而这三个人恰恰是创建了另一种制片模式的人。
And what's interesting to me about that among many other things is that you had bad experiences at studios, and they're three of the people who created alternate studios.
你知道的。
You know?
他们有一个想法，就是不必依赖现有的制片厂。
And and they had this vision that they didn't have to work with the existing studios.
他们可以自己成立制作公司，打造属于自己的工作室。
They could form their own production companies and their own studios.
你经常想到这一点吗？
Do you think about that a lot?
想到那是全新事物的开端，而你恰好参与其中？
About how that was like the start of something brand new and you were a part of it?
是的。
Yeah.
我会想。
I do.
我并不常想这件事，但我知道当时确实有变化发生，那些人正在变得对整个行业越来越重要。
I I don't think of it often, but I I I mean, I I recognize that there was a change happening and that these guys were becoming important, to the to the business overall.
不是的。
No.
那时候，哪怕只是稍微参与其中，也让人觉得特别激动。
It was it was exciting, at the time to be, you know, even a small part of it of what was happening.
我的嘉宾是哈里森·福特，他现在主演的剧集《疗愈》正在Apple TV上播出。
My guest is Harrison Ford, and he's now starring in the series Shrinking, which is streaming on Apple TV.
我们马上回来。
We'll be right back.
这里是《新鲜空气》。
This is Fresh Air.
在出演《枪战》和《处女地》这些剧集之后，还有《FBI》，是那部吗？
So after being an episodic TV like Gunsmoke and the Virginian, and I think, like, the FBI, was that one of them?
哦，那会儿可多了。
Oh, there were a lot.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
后来你拿到了《美国风情画》里的角色，演一个特别爱赛车的人。
So then you got the part in American Graffiti where you're somebody who, like, loves to race cars.
戏份不算多，但挺关键的。
And it's not a big part, but it's a significant part.
《美国风情画》间接带你走上了《星球大战》这条路。
And American Graffiti kind of tangentially led to Star Wars.
那会儿你没多少戏拍，就去当木匠了。
You were a carpenter in between because you weren't getting enough work.
你当时给科波拉当木匠，帮他装修家或者办公室。
So you were working for Coppola as a carpenter doing something in his home or his office.
其实我当时是给弗朗西斯的艺术指导迪恩·塔瓦拉里斯打工。
Well, actually, I was I was working for Dean Tavallaris, who who was Francis' art director.
弗朗西斯搬进了高曼工作室的新办公室，迪恩设计了办公室的入口，工作室的木工坊也把所有部件都做好了。
And Francis had moved into new offices at Goldman Studios, and Dean had designed a an entrance to the offices, and the the studio mill wood shop had had made all the pieces for this entrance.
迪恩需要有人来安装它。
And Dean needed somebody to install it.
所以他问我能不能帮个忙，因为他找不到合适的木工来装这个入口。
And so he he asked me if I would do him a favor because he couldn't find a carpenter to get it installed.
我答应了，愿意接手这个活。
I said that I would do the job.
我很乐意做这个工作。
I'd be happy to do the job.
但我只想晚上干，不想让办公室的人混淆我的身份——我到底是木工还是演员。
But I only wanted to work at night because I didn't want to confuse the people in the office about whether I was a carpenter or an actor.
你把木工当成了副业。
You went to carpentry to be your side gig.
你本来是个演员。
You were an actor.
是的。
Yeah.
我想让他们觉得我是个演员，而不是个木匠。
Well, I wanted them to think of me as an actor, not to think of me as a carpenter.
是的。
Yeah.
我当时在那儿打扫卫生。
So I'm I was I was there sweeping up.
我刚做完活，乔治·卢卡斯就带着理查德·德雷福斯进来了，他演过《美国风情画》。
I was just finishing the job when when George Lucas walked in with with Richard Dreyfus, who had been in American Graffiti.
我们这些演过《美国风情画》的人，都听说不会被考虑出演……
We we had all of us who had been in American Graffiti had been told that we would not be considered for the
《星球大战》。
For Star Wars.
因为乔治想用新人。
For Star Wars because George wanted new faces.
他就在这儿，正和理查德·德雷福斯进行第一次面试。
And here he is, having a, you know, the first interview with, Richard Dreyfus.
我就站在那儿，穿着迈克·卡彭特的工作腰带，扫着地。
And I'm standing there in Micah Carpenter's work belt sweeping up the floor.
但没想到这竟成了个转机，几周后，他们找我帮忙，和那些试镜的演员对台词。
But it turned out to be a fortuitous occasion because weeks later, would end up being asked if I would do them a favor and read with the other actors who were being considered for the parts.
所以你就是给他们念台词。
So you'd just be feeding them the lines.
没错。
That's right.
但他试镜的是你搭档，不是你。
But he was auditioning your partner, not you.
没错。
That's correct.
从来没人跟我说过，我有资格被考虑。
I I never was told that I was ever to be considered.
到最后，我想他们选出了两组，每组三人，作为最终候选人。
And then at the end of the process, I I guess they ended up with two groups of three people that were in final consideration.
我一直觉得挺有意思的是，第二组里，汉·索罗这个角色本来打算由克里斯·沃尔肯来演。
And I've always been amused that in the second group, the character of Han Solo would have been played by Chris Walken.
真的吗。
Oh.
我真想看看那个版本。
I would've I would've loved to see that.
天哪。
Oh, gosh.
这太有意思了。
That's so interesting.
他是其中之一
He's one of
我最欣赏的演员之一。
my favorite actors.
他太棒了。
He's so great.
我都能背下他的台词了。
I know his lines reading.
他的台词太特别了。
They're so unusual.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
所以你对自己能拿到这个角色感到意外？
So you're surprised you got the part?
是的。
Yeah.
特别兴奋。
Thrilled.
我来放一段片段，让大家感受一下当时的氛围。
So I'm gonna play a clip just so we get in the moment.
这是《星球大战》第一部里的一个场景，马克·哈米尔演卢克·天行者，你演韩·索罗，还有丘巴卡，你们三人在死星上。
So this is a scene from Star Wars, the first one, in which, Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker and you as Han Solo along with Chewbacca are on the death star.
R2-D2和C-3PO也在场。
And r two d two and c three p o are there with you as well.
然后你们得知莱娅公主被关在拘留区，很可能要被处决。
And, where you find out that princess Leia is being held in detention and is likely to be killed.
把这个消息告诉你们的是C-3PO，由安东尼·丹尼尔斯饰演。
And the person the android breaking the news to you is c three p o who is portrayed by Anthony Daniels.
我担心她会被处决。
I'm afraid she's scheduled to be terminated.
天哪，不会吧。
Oh, no.
咱们得想办法救她。
We've gotta do something.
你在说什么呢？
What are you talking about?
那些机器人是她的。
The droids belong to her.
消息里的人就是她。
She's the one in the message.
我们得帮她。
We gotta help her.
你听好了。
Now look.
别打什么歪主意。
Don't get any funny ideas.
那位老人让我们就在这儿等着。
The old man wants us to wait right here.
但他不知道她在这儿。
But he didn't know she was here.
我们刚找到回拘留区的路。
We just found a way back into the detention block.
我哪儿也不去。
I'm not going anywhere.
他们要处决她。
They're gonna execute her.
你看。
Look.
几分钟前你还说不想在这儿干等着被抓。
A few minutes ago, said you didn't wanna just wait here to be captured.
现在你只想留下来？
Now all you wanna do is stay?
冲进拘留区根本不是我原本的意思。
Marching into the detention area is not what I had
我打算的。
in mind.
但他们就要杀了她。
But they're gonna kill her.
宁可她死，也不能是我。
Better her than me.
她很有钱。
She's rich.
有钱。
Rich.
有钱。
Rich.
有权有势。
Powerful.
听着，如果你去救她，报酬会是什么？
Listen, if you would rescue her, the reward would be What?
那可是你想象不到的巨额财富。
Well, more wealth than you can imagine.
我不清楚。
I don't know.
我能想象得出来不少。
I can imagine quite a bit.
你会拿到的。
You'll get it.
好吧。
Alright.
听到这个，你有什么感觉？
So what's your reaction to hearing that?
感觉就像很久以前，在遥远的银河系里一样。
It seems like a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
对。
Right.
你没看到丘巴卡、R2-D2、C-3PO或者那些特效，光看剧本，能看懂吗？
Did the script make sense to you without being able to visualize Chewbacca or r two d two or c three p o or the special effects?
你当时没拿到完整剧本，只拿到了自己的那部分台词，对吧？
You you didn't have you just got what's called the sides, you know, like your part.
你根本不知道整个故事的来龙去脉，所以很难想象这部电影到底是什么样子。
And and you didn't have a larger context, so it was probably hard to actually have an idea of what the film was like.
但当你第一次在影院看到它，配上特效、机器人，还有那激昂的配乐时，你感觉怎么样？
But when you saw the film for the first time with the special effects and with the androids and with the, you know, like, stirring music behind it, what did
你当时怎么想的？
you think?
我彻底惊呆了。
I was blown away.
我的意思是，我看到电影的时候，真的被它的震撼力给击中了。
I I mean, I was I was really shocked by by the power of the film when I saw when I saw it.
你知道，我们是在英国拍的，那边的工作人员从来没接触过《星球大战》这样的片子。
You know, that we we shot in England, and our English crew were not used to something like Star Wars.
所以他们都觉得这电影肯定要完蛋。
And so they they would they were pretty sure that it was gonna be a disaster.
我们演员自己也差不多这么想。
And we weren't far from that opinion ourselves, the actors.
但你知道吗？
But it you know?
结果很成功。
Did well.
是的。
Yeah.
表现还不错。
It did okay.
对。
Yeah.
埃尔顿·约翰曾经问过你，会不会写本回忆录。
Elton John once asked you if you were gonna write a memoir.
我想那是在他出完自己的书之后吧。
I think that was after he wrote his.
你当时告诉他，你不想说真话，但也不愿意撒谎，我读到过这个说法。
And you I'm I'm I've I've read that that what you told him was that you didn't wanna tell the truth, but you don't want to lie.
我觉得这个立场挺有意思，尤其是在现在很多人都把一切全盘托出的时代。
And I thought that was an interesting position to take, especially in a time when a lot of people share absolutely everything.
是的。
Yeah.
你能再多说说吗？
Can you say more about that?
我觉得埃尔顿并没有得到最好的答案，因为他对自己特别坦诚，而我还没准备好对自己这么坦诚。
Well, I don't think Eltman was was thought I had had the best answer because he is brutally honest about himself, and I'm I'm not prepared to be brutally honest about myself.
是出于自我保护，还是为了保护别人，或者两者都有？
Is it out of self protection or protection protecting other people or both?
大概是两者都有吧。
Probably both.
对。
Yeah.
我只是觉得，这根本不关别人的事。
It's just I I just don't think it's anybody's business.
所以，算了。
So Anyway
那你每次接受采访，像这次一样，聊到这么私密的事情，会不会觉得尴尬？
So is it awkward for you to be interviewed all the time, like in this interview, and and and have things that are, like, really private?
我一直尽量不侵犯你的隐私。
I've tried to, like, not invade your privacy.
你真的很体贴，不过说实话，要怎么掌控别人对自己信息的了解程度，一直都很纠结。
You know, you've been very gracious, and and and I it's always a struggle, I think, to know how to control this volume of information about yourself.
和你聊天真的很愉快。
Well, it's it's been great to talk with you.
非常感谢你。
Thank you so much.
很高兴你再次回到我们的节目。
I really appreciate you coming back on our show.
哦，谢谢你。
Oh, thank you.
而且我
And I
真的很感谢。
really appreciate it.
恭喜你《疗愈心语》第四季开播，恭喜你获得SAG终身成就奖，也恭喜你发表了那么出色的获奖感言。
And congratulations on getting season four of Shrinking, and congratulations on the SAG Lifetime Achievement Award, and congratulations on giving such a great acceptance speech.
你太客气了。
You're very kind.
谢谢。
Thank you.
哈里森·福特在剧集《疗愈心语》中出演主角。
Harrison Ford costars in the series Shrinking.
第一、二、三季已经在Apple TV上线，而且该剧已续订第四季。
Seasons one, two, and three are streaming on Apple TV, and it's been renewed for a fourth season.
明天在《新鲜空气》节目中，我们会聊聊如今越来越多的美国人不仅赌体育比赛，还赌选举、颁奖典礼，甚至外国领导人的去留，几乎什么都敢赌。
Tomorrow on Fresh Air, we'll talk about how these days, more and more Americans are betting on sports, but they're also betting on elections, award shows, and even the removal of foreign leaders, almost everything.
《大西洋月刊》的作家麦凯·科平斯深入调查了这个赌博世界。
Writer McKay Coppins went inside that gambling world for The Atlantic.
他会分享自己的发现，以及这段经历如何改变了他对赌博的看法。
He'll share what he found and how it changed his perspective on betting.
希望你们能收听。
I hope you'll join us.
想及时了解节目内容，获取采访精华，请在Instagram上关注我们：NPR Fresh Air。
To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Air.
《新鲜空气》的执行制片人是萨姆·布里格。
Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.
我们的技术总监兼工程师是奥黛丽·本瑟姆。
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
我们的采访和评论由菲莉丝·迈尔斯、安·玛丽·博登托、劳伦·克伦泽尔、特蕾莎·马登、莫妮克·纳扎雷特、西娅·查隆纳、苏珊·尤肯迪、安娜·鲍曼和尼科·冈萨雷斯·惠斯勒共同制作和编辑。
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Bordenato, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challoner, Susan Yukundi, Anna Baumann, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
我们的数字媒体制作人是莫莉·C。
Our digital media producer is Molly C.
V。
V.
内斯珀。
Nesper.
罗伯塔·肖洛克负责节目制作。
Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
我们的联合主持人是塔尼娅·莫斯利。
Our cohost is Tanya Mosley.
我是特里·格罗斯。
I'm Terry Gross.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。