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多年来，在NPR的《Fresh Air》节目中，我们有幸与许多杰出的电影导演交谈。
Over the years at NPR's Fresh Air, we've gotten to talk with a lot of great filmmakers.
现在，我们制作了一个精选播放列表，收录了我们的一些最爱，包括马丁·斯科塞斯、史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格、伊娃·杜弗内、梅尔·布鲁克斯、斯派克·李、韦纳·赫尔佐格等人。
Now we've made a playlist of some of our favorites, including Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg, Eva Duvernay, Mel Brooks, Spike Lee, Werner Herzog, and others.
请前往Fresh Air Plus获取我们所有新播放列表及其他内容，网址是 +.npr.org/freshair。
Find all our new playlists and more at Fresh Air Plus at +.npr.org/freshair.
这里是《Fresh Air》。
This is Fresh Air.
我是戴夫·戴维斯。
I'm Dave Davies.
今天我们邀请的嘉宾是瑞典演员斯特兰·斯卡斯加德，他拥有漫长而精彩的职业生涯，而且随着年龄增长，他的事业似乎愈发精彩。
Our guest today, Swedish actor Stellan Skarsgard, has had a long and interesting career, which only seems to get more interesting with age.
现年七十多岁的他，刚刚凭借在丹麦-挪威导演约阿希姆·特里广受好评的电影《情感价值》中的表演，赢得了金球奖并获得奥斯卡最佳男配角提名。
Now in his seventies, he's just earned a Golden Globe Award and an Oscar nomination for best supporting actor for his performance in the widely acclaimed film Sentimental Value from the Danish Norwegian director Joachim Trier.
斯卡斯加德事业的这一转折，发生在四年前他中风之后，当时他一度难以记住台词。
This surge in Skarsgard's fortunes comes four years after he suffered a stroke, which left him struggling to memorize his lines.
他找到了一种应对方法，我们稍后会谈到，这让他能够继续出演之前已经开始的角色，包括科幻电影《沙丘》系列、《星球大战》衍生剧《安多》以及电影《情感价值》。
He found a workaround, which we'll talk about, and that enabled him to continue to play roles he'd begun in the science fiction movie series Dune and the Star Wars spin off TV series Andor, as well as the film Sentimental Value.
斯卡斯加德十几岁就开始演戏，出演过一百多部电影，从独立欧洲电影如《破浪》和《忧郁症》，到商业好莱坞大片如《猎杀红色十月》、《加勒比海盗》和《妈妈咪呀》。
Skarsgard began acting as a teenager and has appeared in more than a 100 movies from independent European films like Breaking the Waves and Melancholia to commercial Hollywood fare, such as the hunt for Red October, Pirates of the Caribbean, and Mamma Mia.
他还有时间抚养来自两次婚姻的八个孩子。
He's also found time to raise eight children from two marriages.
其中五个孩子也成为职业演员。
Five of those kids are also professional actors.
在美国最出名的是他的两个儿子，亚历山大和比尔。
The best known in The United States are his sons, Alexander and Bill.
斯卡斯加德将在3月15日的颁奖典礼上得知自己是否获得奥斯卡奖。
Skarsgard will find out if he's an Oscar winner at the award ceremony March 15.
他上周从伦敦的一个演播室与我交谈。
He spoke to me last week from a studio in London.
斯泰兰·斯卡斯加德，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。
Stellan Skarsgard, welcome to Fresh Air.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
在这部电影《情感价值》中，你饰演古斯塔夫·博格。
In this film, Sentimental Value, you play Gustav Borg.
他是一位著名导演，影片讲述的是他的家庭关系。
He's a famous director, and it's about his family relationships.
他的一个女儿对他怀有极大的愤怒，因为她说他总是不在身边。
He's the target of a lot of anger from one of his daughters because she says he wasn't around.
从事电影行业可能意味着你经常出差，而这位女儿本身也是一位成功的演员。
Being in the movie business can mean your way a lot, and this daughter is also a successful actress herself.
这里与你自己的生活有明显的相似之处。
There's an obvious parallel here to your own life.
我的意思是，你从事电影行业，而且你的很多孩子都是演员。
I mean, you're in the movie business, and a lot of your children are actors.
我知道你经常被问到这个问题，但当你读到这个剧本时，你在多大程度上认同这个角色？
I know you've been asked this a lot, but to what extent when you read this script did you identify with this character?
完全不是。
Not at all.
他是来自不同世代的人。
It's he's he's from a different generation.
他是一位与我不同的父亲。
He's a different kind of father than I am.
当然，作为一名艺术家，要在工作与个人生活之间取得平衡是困难的。
Of course, the conflict between working as an artist and combining that with a personal life is difficult.
这些问题我也存在。
And those problems I have.
但这对每一位艺术家来说都是如此。
But that goes for every artist.
但我根本没觉得这个角色和我有任何关联。
But I didn't think I had anything to do with the role at all.
所以我拍整部电影时，都像是在扮演一个陌生人。
So I did the entire film as if it was a stranger I was doing.
但后来，我的二儿子古斯塔夫看完电影后对我说，他非常喜欢这一点，他问我：你认出自己了吗？
But then my second son, Gustav, said to me after having seen the film that he liked very much that he said to me, do you recognize yourself?
我说：没有。
And I went, no.
他说：再仔细看看。
And he said, look again.
即使我一年中有八个月都在家。
And even if I was at home, basically, eight months of of 12.
自1989年以来，我每年只工作四个月。
I only worked four months a year since 1989.
如果我一年有八个月在家，那对我来说，我还是不够陪他。
If I was at home eight months a year, I wasn't enough home for him.
于是我开始思考这个问题。
So I started to thinking about it.
让我明白的是，我有八个孩子，所以我要面对八种不同的需求。
What what what became clear to me is, I mean, I have eight children, so I have eight different needs.
对。
Right.
有些孩子非常需要我，而有些则完全不需要我。
Some some children need me a lot, and some some don't need me at all.
所以作为父母，你不可能做到完美。
So you can't get get it right as a parent.
我读到过，导演约阿希姆·特里尔在你开拍前一年就和你讨论过这个，他为你量身打造了剧本。
I I read that the the director Joachim Trier, you talked about this, I guess, a year before you started shooting, and he kinda crafted the script for you.
这是真的吗？
Is this true?
是的。
Yeah.
他是为我写的。
He wrote it for me.
是的。
Yeah.
不是为了我而服务，但他在写作时心里想着我。
Not as a service to me, but he was thinking of me when he was writing it.
他和编剧埃斯凯尔富赫特。
He and the and the writer Eskelfucht.
他说这个角色是个坏人，所以需要一个善良的人来演。
He's he says that it was the the role was such a bad guy that he needed someone nice to do it.
所以这是一种很体贴的说法。
So it was a it was a flattering way of putting it.
是的。
Yeah.
古斯塔夫，你的角色是个坏人吗？
Is he a bad guy, Gustaf, your your character?
我不相信有纯粹的坏人。
I don't believe in bad guys.
没有。
No.
不。
No.
我的意思是，我在《沙丘》里演的那个怪物确实是个坏人。
I mean, the monster that I did in in Dune was a bad guy.
你可能会这么说。
You might say that.
但在人类身上，我们有各种问题，因为他们是复杂的、真实的、有缺陷的。
But in, like, human beings, we have problems because they are nuanced, real new really, they're they're they're flawed.
他们既悲伤，又滑稽，什么都有。
They're they're sad, and they're comic, and they're everything.
对。
Right.
古斯塔夫和他女儿之间的隔阂，随着电影接近高潮最终得到了弥合。
And the gulf between Gustave and his daughter is is bridged as the movie eventually reaches its climax.
拍得相当出色。
It's it's quite well done.
你知道，我手头没有这部电影的片段可以播放。
You know, I don't have a clip to play from the film.
对于美国观众来说，这部电影的大部分内容都不是英语的。
For an American audience, a lot of the film is not in English.
但我在寻找音频时意识到的另一件事是，如果你听这部电影对话的音频版本，其中的停顿可能比平常更长，而我第二次观看这部电影时想到，这里的很多表演都是通过面部表情和眼神来回应其他演员的台词。
But the other thing that I realized when I was looking for audio was that if you listen to audio versions of dialogue in this film, there are maybe longer pauses than usual, and it occurred to me when I watched the film for the second time, that a lot of the acting here is you know, you're responding with your face and your eyes to what other actors are saying.
这是约阿希姆·特里尔的一种技巧吗？
Is this a a Joachim Trier technique?
这是人性。
It's a human.
这是人性的特质。
It's a human trait.
我的意思是，这很美妙，因为通常要求演员的是在台词内表演，让台词以一种方式呈现，或以另一种方式呈现，因为台词中包含所有传递给观众的信息，而那并不准确。
I mean, it's it's the wonderful thing because normally, it's what is asked of the actor is to to act within the line, to make the line one way or make the line another way, to to to because in the line is all the information that is given to the audience, and that's that's not accurate.
那样不好，那样不对。
That's not that's not good.
你需要做的，也是我喜欢做的，是展现台词之间、台词之下、台词之前、台词之后所发生的一切，这能起到平衡作用。
What you what you need to do and what I like to do is to show whatever happens between the lines, under the lines, before the lines, after the lines, and that counterbalances.
有时它表明你刚才说的那句话是个谎言，或者表明你其实并不理解自己刚说的话。
And sometimes it says that the the the line you were just saying is a lie, or it says that line you're just saying you don't understand.
你明白吗？
You know?
对。
Right.
所以它变成了一幅更加丰富、层次更细腻的情感画卷。
So it's it becomes a much richer, richer tapestry of feelings.
在这方面，约阿希姆·特里尔做得非常出色。
And Joachim Trejo is fantastic in that sense.
他，这正是他所热爱的。
He he that is what he loves.
没错。
Right.
摄像机不仅仅是跟随说话者。
The camera isn't just following the speaker.
它是在跟随倾听者。
It is following the listener.
对。
Right.
对。
Right.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yes.
我的意思是，有一个角色真的是个倾听者，那就是英格，其中一个女儿，那个相对稳定的女儿，这个故事中爱的中心。
I mean, there there's one role that is really, really a listener, and and that is Inge, the one of the daughters, the sort of the stable daughter, the the the the the center of love in this story.
她几乎一直都在观察，而且她意识到自己在观察，你通过观看就能非常出色地感受到她的表演。
She is almost almost all the time watching, And she's registered watching, and you get her fantastically, her her performance by watching.
我想聊聊你2022年经历的那次中风。
I wanted to talk about this stroke that you had that you suffered, I guess, in 2022.
对吧？
Right?
如果你愿意的话，能跟我们说说当时发生了什么吗？
If you're comfortable, could you just tell us what happened when this occurred?
嗯，我就是突然中风了。
Well, I just I just got a stroke.
我妻子注意到我有些异常，而我儿子是医生，他说你应该去医院。
I mean, my wife sort of noticed something on me, and my my son who was a doctor, he said that you should go to the hospital.
结果确实是中风。
And, it was a stroke.
那是一次比较轻微的中风。
It was a rather mild stroke.
我右半身的一些肌肉失去了功能，大脑的一部分也受到了影响。
I lost some muscles in in my right side of my body, and I lost something some part of my brain.
当我需要表达一个较长的思路时，比如进行政治讨论或其他类似情况，我遇到了更大的问题。
I have a bigger problem with the the if I'm presenting a a long thought chain, like if if I'm having a political discussion or anything.
我的意思是，我在中途会失去方向，然后就突然沉默了。
I mean, I I I lose my my bearing in the middle of it and and just go quiet.
但除此之外，可能有些平衡问题，不过其他方面我都还好。
But other than that, maybe some balance problems, but other than that, I was fine.
当然，据我理解，你在职业生涯中遇到的问题是，你无法像以前那样记住台词，但你找到了一种方法来应对这个问题。
Well, of course, the the problem, as I understand it, that you faced with your career was that you couldn't really learn lines as you did before, and you found a way to kinda work around this.
告诉我们你做了什么，你是怎么做到的。
Tell tell us what you did, how you got there.
事实上，我一直都有记台词的困难，除非这些台词能契合我的感受。
Well, the thing is I've always had difficulties learning lines in a way if I didn't sort of have them tailored to my feelings.
但现在，我完全会立刻忘记台词，有一次我在医院的床上躺着，试着测试自己是否还能记得住那些台词。
But the way I totally forgot lies immediately now, and and I discovered that I I I sort of was lying in bed in a hospital, and I was trying to test myself if I could remember the lies.
于是我拿了一本书，读了一些内容，然后合上书，却发现我完全记不起来了。
And I sort of, I took a a book, I read something, and I closed the book, and I didn't remember it.
所以我从医院打了电话。
So so I called from the hospital.
我给托尼·吉罗伊打了电话，他是《安多》的剧集主创和编剧。
I I I made a call to, Tony Gilroy, who was the showrunner and writer of of, Andor.
我当时正在拍摄这些剧集。
I was in the middle of doing them.
我已经拍完了第一季，但还没拍第二季。
I I had done the first episodes, and I hadn't done the second season.
我还欠德尼·维尔纳夫一个电话，他即将执导《沙丘2》。
And I also owed Denise Villeneuve, who's gonna who was going to do Dune two of a phone call.
我和他们谈了，说：我什么都记不住了，任何台词都记不住。
And I and I talked to them, and I said, I I I cannot remember anything, any lines.
他们说：别担心。
And they said, don't worry.
我们会解决的。
We'll fix it.
他们说，别着急。
And they said they said, take it easy.
过来做你该做的事。
Come in and do what you need to.
我就照做了。
And I did.
其实很多演员都在使用这种技术，就是戴耳麦加提词器。
And there's a lot of actors that are actually using this technique, which is an earpiece and a and a prompter.
但我发现，如果你希望在节奏上做到精准，这会相当困难，是的。
But I found it rather difficult if you wanted to be precise in terms of rhythm Yeah.
我会说。
I would say.
还有场景的节奏。
And of the rhythm of the scene.
对我来说，节奏非常重要，因为你把它当作一种工具，用来塑造场景中的节奏。
And to me, rhythm is very important because it you you you use it as a tool, the the way the rhythm you make in the scene.
我不得不让那个提示员把台词放在我的搭档演员上面。
And I had to I had to have the guy the prompt to put his lines on top of of of my fellow actor.
所以，让我们明确一下。
So Just so we understand this.
我的意思是，你戴了一个小耳麦。
I mean, you have a little earpiece.
对吧？
Right?
而且这并不是台词的录音。
And and it's not a recording of the lines.
而是一个现场提示员在你演戏时实时念出这些台词，常常和你的搭档演员同时说话。
It's a live prompter who is saying these lines as you're in the scene, often speaking at the same time as your fellow actors.
是的。
Yeah.
没错。
That's true.
他必须和另一位演员同时说话，或者她也必须和另一位演员同时说，这样我才能把提示词放在我想放的位置。
He has to speak at the same time, or she has to speak at the same time as the other actor for me to be able to put the cue where I want.
对。
Right.
所以我一边听他说话，一边听另一位演员的台词，然后根据对方的台词做出反应。
So so so he I'm listening to him, and I'm listening to to the fellow actor, and then I react to the fellow actor's line.
我不是对提示员做出反应，而是从提示员那里获取文本并说出来。
I don't react to the prompter, but I I take the text from the prompter and say it.
哇。
Wow.
所以这种同时进行的工作相当复杂。
So so it's it's it's it's quite complicated in terms of simultaneous work.
这有点复杂，但可行，我们确实做到了。
It's it's kind kind of complicated, but but it's it's feasible, and we did it.
所以我觉得我的表演中完全看不出中风的痕迹。
So I I don't think there's any trace of of the stroke in in my work.
是的
Mhmm.
你对这部电影所引发的强烈情感共鸣感到惊讶吗？
Are you surprised by the tremendous response to sentimental value, this film?
我的意思是，我没想到会有如此强烈的反响。
I mean, the power of the response, am surprised by.
你根本无法预料，因为这太棒了。
You you can't you can't anticipate that because it's fantastic.
我是说观众的反应。
I mean, the audience response.
它显然吸引了从孩子到老人的所有人，因为每个人都有家人，或者与某个家庭成员有着某种关系，而这在电影中得到了体现。
It appeals to, obviously, everybody from children to old people, because everybody has a family member or are in a relationship to some family member that is sort of reflected in the film.
但这部电影也非常轻松。
But it's also it's a very light film.
它探讨了严肃的问题，并以严肃的态度对待这些问题。
It deals with serious problems, and it deals with them seriously.
别轻视它们。
And don't take them light.
但这部电影本身非常非常轻松。
But the film itself is very, very light.
就像你轻得像一片羽毛。
It's like you're light as a feather.
我们来聊聊你在这里的生活。
Let's talk a little bit about your life here.
我知道你青少年时期就开始了演艺生涯，出演了一部名为《Bambi、Bit和我》的瑞典电视剧。
You you, I understand you did your first acting as a teenager, a a Swedish TV series called Bambi, Bit, and Me.
你饰演了一个叫邦迪的角色，我看过一点这个视频。
You played a character named Bondi who have I've seen a little video of this.
可惜当时没有字幕，所以我听不懂你在说什么。
I unfortunately, there was no translation, so I don't know what you were saying.
但这个角色有点像哈克贝利·芬，戴着草帽，充满活力。
But it's kind of like a Huckleberry Finn character, a guy with a straw hat with a lot of moxie.
差不多就是这样。
It's more or less right.
对。
Yep.
而且它很受欢迎。
And and it was a hit.
对吧？
Right?
你当时很有名吗？
You were well known?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，那是个电视剧，当时我们只有一个频道可选。
I mean, we had we had it was a TV series, and we had one channel to choose between.
大家都看这个节目。
Everybody choose it.
但是，但是，但是，所以每个人都看到了。
But but but but so everybody saw it.
因此，我们作为16岁的少年变得非常有名。
So it was we became very famous as a 16 year old.
但在此之前，我演过戏剧，做过一些业余戏剧表演，在做那个之前也演过专业戏剧。
But I I've done theater before, and I've done sort of amateur theater, and I've done also professional theater before I did that.
好的。
Okay.
那么，16岁就成名意味着什么？我猜这意味着人们会在街上认出你，诸如此类的事情。
So what did being famous at 16 I assume this meant people would recognize you on the street and that kind of thing.
这对你的生活产生了什么影响？
Effect did that have on you in your life?
嗯，可以说童星们要么屈服于压力，失去匿名性可能导致非常糟糕的结果。
Well, you can say that child actors, they can either succumb to the pressure and and the the sort of loss of anonymity can turn out really bad.
要么你能挺过来，结果就会相当不错。
Or you can survive it, and it turns out pretty well.
我有非常睿智、杰出的父母，他们确保我没有变得傲慢，始终脚踏实地。
And I had very, very thoughtful and brilliant parents who who sort of made sure that my head didn't get too big, and that I was grounded as a person.
你还记得他们是怎么做到的吗？
Do you remember how they did that?
他们向我指出，我和我的公众形象有多么不同。
Well, they pointed out to me how different I was from the my persona, my public persona.
最重要的是，不要让你的公众形象和真实的自己差距太大，因为一旦差距过大，问题就会出现。
And and the the important thing is don't get that difference between your public persona and yourself too big because that's when it happens, when it goes wrong.
对。
Right.
我想聊聊一部我觉得对你来说是突破性作品的电影。
I wanted to talk about a film that I gather was kind of a breakthrough project for you.
1996年的电影《破浪》。
1996, the film is breaking the waves.
那是你第一次与丹麦导演拉斯·冯·提尔合作。
It was your first with first film with the Danish director Lars von Trier.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Mhmm.
你和一位非常年轻的艾米莉·沃森主演。
And you star with a very young Emily Watson.
我想这是她的第一部电影。
I think this was her first film.
这部电影有很多性爱场景，这很有趣。
Lot of sex in this movie, which was interesting.
我的意思是，你比她年长一些。
I mean, you were a little older than her.
你当时快五十岁了。
You were kinda in the mid forties.
她才二十多岁。
She was late twenties.
总之，我想放一个片段。
Anyway, I wanna play a clip here.
你扮演一位在苏格兰海岸外的石油钻井平台上工作的人，而她扮演一位住在钻井平台附近一个非常保守的沿海小镇的年轻女子。
You play a man who works on an oil rig off the coast of Scotland, and, she plays a young woman in a very conservative coastal town near the rig.
你们两人相爱、结婚，并在电影中展现了积极而生动的性生活。
And the two of you fall in love, get married, have an active and very actively portrayed sex life in the film.
然后，你的角色简在一场事故中受伤，颈部以下瘫痪。
And then your character, Jan, is injured in an accident and paralyzed from the neck down.
贝丝，你的妻子，对你忠贞不渝。
Bess, your now wife, is devoted to you.
在这场戏中，她坐在你的病床边，而你向她提出了一个请求。
And in this scene, she is at your bedside, and you make a request of her.
我们来听一下。
Let's listen.
爱是一种强大的力量，不是吗？
Love is a mighty power, isn't it?
如果我死了，那将是因为爱无法让我活下去。
If I die, it will be because love cannot keep me alive.
但我几乎记不起做爱是什么感觉了。
But I can hardly remember what it's like to make love.
如果我忘了那种感觉，那我就会死去。
And if I forget that, then I'll die.
还记得我把你从耙子上扔下来，我们没在一起就做了爱吗？
Remember when I thrown you from the rake, and we made love without being together?
你想让我再那样跟你说话吗？
Do you want me to talk to you like that again?
我很乐意。
I'd love to.
贝丝，
Bess,
我希望你去找个男人做爱，然后回来告诉我过程。
I want you to find a man to make love to, and then come back here and tell me about it.
那会感觉像你我再次在一起，这会让我继续活下去。
It will feel like you and me being together again, and that will keep me alive.
我做不到。
I can't.
今天早上我让你去找情人时，不是为了你。
This morning when I when I told you to to get a lover, it wasn't for your sake.
而是为了我自己，因为我并不想死。
It was for my sake because I don't want to die.
我害怕。
I'm afraid.
你明白吗？
You understand?
明白。
Yes.
那会是你和我，贝丝。
It will be you and me, Beth.
为我做这件事吧。
Do it for me.
我做不到。
I can't.
这就是我们的嘉宾斯特兰·斯卡斯加德，在1996年与艾米丽·沃森合作的电影《破浪》中的表现。
And that is our guest, Stellan Skarsgard, in the 1996 film Breaking the Waves with Emily Watson.
我想你可能有一阵子没听过这个了。
I imagine you may not have heard that in a while.
这让你想起一些往事了吗？
Does it bring back some memories?
是的。
Yeah.
确实如此。
It sure does.
我我已经三十年没看过这部电影了。
I I haven't seen the film since thirty years.
所以，是的。
So Yeah.
我记得很清楚。
Remember very well.
是的。
Yeah.
我要说，你知道，你对她提出的那个要求，最终把这部电影带到了相当黑暗的境地，不是吗？
I will say, you know, that request that you make of her takes the film to some pretty dark places eventually, doesn't
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，那个男人一开始让她忘记他，因为他不再像个男人那样运作了，所以她应该找另一个男人，但她拒绝了。
He I mean, the the man is mis he he asked her first to forget about him because he's not he doesn't function as a man anymore, so she should get another man as she refuses.
然后他想出一个计划，让她去和其他男人发生关系，找另一个男人。
And he comes up with this scheme to make her sleep around and find another man.
当然，这个计划失败了。
And of course, it misfires.
这种做法很愚蠢。
It's a stupid way to do it.
但我从拉斯·冯·提尔那里学到的是，没有什么规则是神圣不可侵犯的。
But what I learned from Lars von Trier is that there's no rules that are sacred.
而这是一条很好的、值得拥有的好规则。
And that's a good good rule to a good rule to have.
你是指艺术创作吗？
In making art, you mean?
在创作艺术时。
In making art.
是的。
Yeah.
而拉斯，他，他的前五部电影都非常克制。
And Lars, he his his first five films were very controlled.
他是一位电影大师，他自己也知道这一点，他拍摄的那些狂野而美丽的电影，在某种程度上完全缺乏人性，因为片中的角色、演员们，他们的表演被指导得非常细致入微。
He he's he's he's a master filmmaker, and he he knew it, and he was doing those wild, beautiful films that that were totally void of of humanity in a way because the the people in it, the actors, they were sort of directed they were directed in minutiae.
而那会扼杀生命力。
And that kills that kills the life.
他也意识到了这一点。
And he realized that.
所以，他与其他一些人共同构建了道格玛宣言，这是他用来剥夺自己所有工具的一种方式。
So so he he he constructed, among other things, a dogma, the dogma manifesto, which was a way of him to take away all his tools.
但他也从给予演员自由开始。
But also he he started with letting the actors free.
而确保他们自由的一种方式，就是在片场挂上写着‘要犯错’的牌子。
And and one way of making sure that they were free was was having signs on the on the set that said, make mistakes.
他对此非常坚持。
And he was very adamant about it.
你应该犯错，因为在犯错且不害怕犯错的过程中，你正在拓展可能性，也在拓展角色的生命力。
You should make mistakes because in making mistakes and not being afraid of making mistakes, you're expanding your possibilities, and you're expanding the life in in in the character.
那么，你作为演员觉得这是一种解放性的体验吗？
So do you found that a liberating experience as an actor?
是的
Yeah.
非常大
Enormously.
再加上另一位瑞典导演，叫博·维德伯格。
That in combination with another director, a Swedish director called Bo Weiderberg.
我不知道你是否记得他。
I don't know if you remember him.
他曾经几次获得奥斯卡最佳外语片提名，并在戛纳电影节多次获奖，嗯。
He he was nominated for a couple of Oscars and and he for foreign films, and he won in Cannes a couple of times Mhmm.
在六七十年代。
In the sixties and seventies.
他告诉我，那是在我们准备拍一部电影的时候。
And he he said to me, it was about a time when we were going to do a film.
他用他独特的声音和口吻对我们这些经验丰富的瑞典演员说。
He said to me and some other very seasoned Swedish actors, he said, his very special voice and special accent.
他说：我知道你懂得怎么做，但我不想看到你的那些工具。
Said, I know you know how to do this, but I don't wanna see your tools.
我希望你能像我电影里的那些业余演员一样出色。
I want you to be as good as the amateurs that I have in the in the film.
这正是拉斯·冯·提尔和约阿希姆·提尔那种导演或不导演的方式所追求的——让演员摆脱他们的工具和惯常做法，不再去想那些自以为对事业或影片有益的套路，只是纯粹地存在。
And that is exactly what what Lars von Trier's way of directing or not directing and Joachim Trier's way of not directing is is is aiming at to get the actors free of their tools, their conventions, they try to do what they think would benefit the career or the film or whatever, just to be there.
那真是一次顿悟。
And and that was a revelation.
我们需要在这里休息一下。
We need to take another break here.
让我重新介绍一下。
Let me reintroduce you.
我们正在与斯特兰·斯卡斯加德交谈。
We're speaking with Stellan Skarsgard.
他因在电影《情感价值》中的表演赢得了金球奖，并获得了奥斯卡提名。
He's won a Golden Globe Award and earned an Oscar nomination for his performance in the film Sentimental Value.
短暂休息后，他将回来继续谈论他的生活和职业生涯。
He'll be back to talk more about his life and career after this short break.
我是戴夫·戴维斯，欢迎收听《新鲜空气》。
I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.
如果您是特里·格罗斯主持的《新鲜空气》的超级粉丝，我们有个令人兴奋的消息。
If you're a super fan of Fresh Air with Terry Gross, we have exciting news.
WHYY 已经推出了《新鲜空气协会》，这是一个致力于保障《新鲜空气》传承的领导团体。
WHYY has launched a Fresh Air Society, a leadership group dedicated to ensuring Fresh Air's legacy.
五十多年来，这个节目为您带来了与喜爱的作家、艺术家、演员等的精彩访谈。
For over fifty years, this program has brought you fascinating interviews with favorite authors, artists, actors, and more.
作为《新鲜空气协会》的成员，您将获得特别福利和认可。
As a member of the Fresh Air Society, you'll receive special benefits and recognition.
了解更多，请访问 whyy.org/freshairsociety。
Learn more at whyy.org/freshairsociety.
格陵兰表示，它不对外出售。
Greenland has said it is not for sale.
丹麦表示，即便在法律上也无法出售格陵兰岛。
Denmark has said it can't even legally sell Greenland.
而特朗普能否、是否愿意或是否应该试图控制或购买一个不愿被出售的领土，则是另一个问题。
And whether Trump can or will or should try to control or purchase a territory that does not wanna be sold is one question.
但在《金钱星球》节目中，我们更感兴趣的是我们是如何走到这一刻的，以及我们如何能优雅地摆脱这一局面。
But on Planet Money, we are more interested in how we even got to this moment and how we might gracefully get out of it.
请在NPR应用程序或您获取播客的任何地方收听《金钱星球》。
Listen to Planet Money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
本周《Up First》节目将关注国情咨文演讲，这既是一项公民仪式，也是一场政治活动。
This week on Up First, the state of the union address is a civic ritual and a political event.
我们将观察一位支持率较低的总统如何应对这一时刻。
We'll be watching to see how a president with low approval ratings handles the moment.
我们也在关注美国与伊朗的对峙局势。
We are also watching The United States confrontation with Iran.
请每天早晨收听最新进展。
Listen each morning for overnight developments.
在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台，首先收听Up First。
Up first on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
嗨。
Hi.
我是《Fresh Air》的数字制作人莫莉·西比·内斯伯格。
This is Molly Seebi Nesberg, digital producer at Fresh Air.
我是这档节目的主持人特里·格罗斯。
And this is Teri Gross, host of the show.
我做的工作之一是撰写每周通讯。
One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.
我是个通讯爱好者。
And I'm a newsletter fan.
我每周六早餐后都会阅读。
I read it every Saturday after breakfast.
这份通讯包含本周所有节目、工作人员推荐以及莫莉从档案中精选的及时亮点。
The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive.
读起来很有趣。
It's a fun read.
它也是我们唯一告知你下周节目安排的地方，这是独家内容。
It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, an exclusive.
请在 whyy.org/freshair 订阅，并每周六早上留意来自莫莉的邮件。
So subscribe at whyy.org/freshair, and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning.
在出演拉斯·冯·提尔的电影《破浪》后不久，你就出演了由格斯·范·桑特执导的《心灵捕手》。
Not long after the Lars von Trier film, Breaking the Waves, you you were in Goodwill Hunting, which was directed by Gus Van Sant.
这部电影设定在波士顿，由本·阿弗莱克和马特·达蒙编剧。
This was the film, set in Boston, written by Ben Affleck and Matt Damon.
我想在这里播放一段片段。
And I wanted to play a clip here.
我的意思是，人们会记得的故事是关于波士顿的这些年轻朋友，他们是工人阶级的小伙子。
I mean, the story people will remember is about these young friends in Boston who are working class guys.
他们有点好斗。
They're kind of brawlers.
他们不喜欢在酒吧喝酒。
They don't like to drink at bars.
但他们中的一个是马特·达蒙饰演的角色，他是一名大学看门人，同时也是一位学者，在数学等方面天赋异禀。
But one of them, the Matt Damon character, is, a janitor in a college and is also a savant, brilliant at math and whatever.
你饰演的斯特兰·斯卡斯加德是一位数学教授，想招揽这位才华横溢的年轻人与你共事，但他因为打架斗殴、袭击警察而入狱了。
You, Stellan Skarsgard, play a math professor who want to get this brilliant young man to work with you, but he's in jail because he got into a fight and punched a police officer.
你已经说服法庭同意释放他学习数学，前提是他必须接受心理治疗。
And you've gotten the court to agree to release him to study math provided he sees a therapist.
所以在这个场景中，我们会听到，你来找一位由罗宾·威廉姆斯饰演的精神科医生，你和他有过往交集，想看看他是否同意接诊那个年轻人。
So in this scene we're gonna hear, you have come to a psychiatrist played by Robin Williams who you have a history with to see if he will agree to see the young man.
而这位精神科医生有些犹豫，他先开口说话了。
And the psychiatrist is is reluctant, and he speaks first.
我们来听听看。
Let's listen.
我的日程已经排满了。
I've got a full schedule.
我的意思是，我特别忙。
I mean, I'm very busy.
这个日程安排。
This full schedule.
简直不可思议。
Is incredible.
我从没见过像他这样的人。
I've never seen anything like him.
他哪里这么不可思议，杰里？
What makes him so incredible, Jerry?
你听说过拉马纳·约翰吗？
Ever heard of Ramana John?
是的。
Yeah.
没有。
No.
他是一个男人。
It's a man.
生活在一百多年前。
Lived over a hundred years ago.
他是印度人。
He was Indian.
他住在印度某个地方的一间小茅屋里。
And he lived in this tiny hut somewhere in India.
他没有接受过正规教育。
He had no formal education.
他无法接触到任何科学著作。
He had no access to any scientific work.
但他偶然发现了这些古老的数学资料。
And but he came across this old math things.
从这些简单的文本中，他推导出了让数学家们困惑多年的理论。
And from this simple text, he was able to extrapolate theories that had baffled mathematicians for years.
是的。
Yes.
连分数。
Continued fractions.
对。
Yeah.
他写下来后，发邮件给了剑桥的哈代。
He he wrote it with a Well, he emailed it to Hardy at Yeah.
剑桥的哈代。
Hardy in Cambridge.
当然。
Sure.
哈代立刻意识到他工作的卓越之处。
And Hardy immediately recognized the brilliance of his work Mhmm.
并把他邀请到了英国。
And brought him over to England.
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然后他们合作了多年，创造了有史以来最令人兴奋的数学理论之一。
And then they worked together for years, creating some of the most exciting math theory ever done.
这位拉马努金，他的天才无与伦比，肖恩。
This this Romano Giannis, his genius was unparalleled, Sean.
这孩子就是这样。
This boy is just like that.
但他有点防御心强。
But he's he's a bit defensive.
我需要一个能与他沟通的人。
And I need someone who can get through to him.
像我这样的人？
Like me?
是的。
Yeah.
像你这样。
Like you.
为什么？
Why?
因为你们有相似的背景。
Well, because you have the same kind of background.
什么背景？
What background?
哦，你们来自同一个街区。
Oh, you're from the same neighborhood.
他来自南波士顿。
He's from Southie.
是的。
Yeah.
来自南波士顿的天才穷小子。
Poor ingenious from Southie.
在遇到我之前，你找过多少个心理医生？
How many shrinks you go to before me?
五个。
Five.
让我猜猜。
Let me guess.
巴里。
Barry.
是的。
Yeah.
亨利。
Henry.
是的。
Yeah.
不是里克。
Not Rick.
肖恩，求你了。
Sean, please.
好的。
Mhmm.
就每周见他一次，拜托了。
Just meet with him once a week, please.
这位是我们的嘉宾，斯特兰·斯卡斯加德，以及电影《心灵捕手》中的罗宾·威廉姆斯。
And that's our guest, Stellan Skarsgard and Robin Williams in the film Goodwill Hunting.
在片场与罗宾·威廉姆斯合作是怎样的体验？
What was it like working with Robin Williams on this set?
是的。
Yeah.
那真是太棒了。
It was fantastic.
我是说，他是个非常好的人，非常温和的人，但他同时，就像，有三个大脑在同时疯狂运转。
I mean, he he was a very nice man and and a very gentle man, But he also he had, like, three brains going on at the same time wildly.
而且他非常风趣，还在即兴发挥。
And and he was very funny, and he was improvising.
他即兴发挥每一场戏，我们不得不额外多拍几条，因为他需要把自己的各种版本都尝试一遍。
He he improvised every every scene we had to do some extra takes because he had to get his versions out of his system.
但这种即兴创作对我们所有人来说也是有益的。
But the improvisation was also good for us all.
我的意思是，无论他走到哪里，你都得跟上他的节奏。
I mean, you had to follow him wherever he went.
而且，他也会跟着你，无论你走到哪里。
And also, would follow you wherever you went.
由于罗宾的引导，一切都变得与之前的镜头截然不同，因为他会把你带到意想不到的地方。
And everything became very different from the previous take because of Robin leading it to somewhere that you didn't expect to end up.
但格斯·范·桑特从中得到的是极其生动、情绪各异的镜头，有些镜头充满攻击性，有些则显得温和友善。
But what Gus Van Sant got out of it was he got extremely vivid takes and different temperatures in the takes, and he got aggression in some takes and sort of niceness in some takes.
他可以根据需要将这些镜头剪辑成任何他想要的样子。
And he could cut it those takes into any kind he wanted.
在剪辑时，他能够随心所欲地掌控影片的走向。
When he was editing, he could take the film where he wanted.
你觉得应对罗宾·威廉姆斯这种快速即兴的表演有挑战吗？
Did you find it challenging to to deal with that kind of fast paced improvising from Robin Williams?
你以前做过这种事吗？
Had you done that before?
没有。
No.
我不太擅长即兴表演。
I'm and I'm not good at improvising.
我曾经有一次在多伦多电影节上，迈克·菲吉斯走过来对我说：‘斯特兰，我想和你拍一部电影。’
I'm I did once once I was in in Toronto at the film festival, and Mike Figgis come up to me, and he says, Stellan, I like to do a movie with you.
是吗？
Yeah?
对。
Yeah.
太好了。
Cool.
而且整部电影会一次性即兴拍摄。
And it will be improvised in one take.
这简直是我最可怕的噩梦。
And that is my worst nightmare.
所以我答应了。
So I said yes.
这部电影叫《时间代码》。
And it's called time code.
这是一部非常有趣的电影。
It's it's a very interesting film.
如果你有机会，一定要看看。
You should see it if you if you can.
而且它是即兴创作的。
And it's improvised.
时长一个半小时，我们拍了五次，我想。
It's one hour and a half, and we did five takes, I think.
于是我们从中选择了一条，因为你无法在不同镜头之间进行剪辑。
And we choose one because you couldn't you couldn't cut between them.
但我所做的就是确保我有足够的台词，大概准备了100句我编造的这个角色在那些情境下可能会说的话。
But what I did was that I made sure that I had lines enough, made 100 lines probably that I made up that this person could say in those situations.
这样我就可以进入角色，如果需要的话，如果我想不出更好的点子，我就可以即兴发挥那些台词。
So I could go in, and I could improvise those lines if I wanted to if I couldn't come up with anything better.
而且我也可以即兴保持沉默。
And I could also improvise silence.
这说明了一些关于你的事，你提出了这个想法，它让你有点害怕，但你还是说，没问题。
It says something about you that you pitched this idea, and it kinda terrified you, and you said, sure.
我们来做吧。
Let's do it.
这就像《妈妈咪呀》那样。
That's it's like with Mamma Mia.
嗯，我正想提这个呢。
Well, I was just gonna bring that up.
那就是
That's the
我明白了。
I see.
那就是那部音乐剧，你和皮尔斯·布鲁斯南、科林·费尔斯一起唱歌跳舞。
That's the musical where you sing and dance with Pierce Brosnan and Colin Firth.
你之前有唱歌跳舞的经验吗？
Did you have any singing and dancing experience?
没有。
No.
我不会唱歌。
I can't sing.
我不会跳舞。
I can't dance.
但你还是演了。
But you did.
是的。
Yeah.
我不得不做。
I had to.
那么你对结果满意吗？
And and were you happy with the result?
关键在于，《妈妈咪呀》并不需要那三位男士会唱歌或跳舞。
The thing is that Mamma Mia, they don't need those three men to be able to sing or dance.
所有女孩都擅长唱歌跳舞，他们只是想要三个漂亮、有趣又性感的金发美女。
All the girls are good at singing and dancing, and and they just want three bimbos to look pretty, be funny, and, be sexy.
是的。
Yeah.
你可以在YouTube上找到很多有趣的视频，是你和另外两位男士在录音棚里唱这些歌，这些是Abba的歌，你知道，并不容易唱，但你们完全投入其中。
There's a lot of fun video you can find on YouTube of you and these other two men, in the studio singing these songs, which are songs by Abba, which are, you know, not the easiest, and just throwing yourselves into them.
看起来非常有趣。
And it's a lot of fun to watch.
是的。
Yeah.
嗯，我不确定。
Well, I don't know.
我还没看过他们。
I haven't seen them.
但我的意思是，我吓坏了。
So but, I mean, I was terrified.
我们三个人都吓坏了。
And we were all all three of us were terrified.
我们到了录音室，见到了创作了这些歌曲的比约恩和伯尼，他们都是非常优秀的音乐人。
We got to that studio, and we met Bjorn and Bernie that had made all these all these songs, and they're very good musicians.
他们对我们非常友善，但我们非常害怕。
And they were so nice to us, but we were so frightened.
我们不知道该怎么开始。
We we didn't know how to get it started.
但他们鼓励我们，我们全身心投入了进去。
But they encouraged us, and we threw ourselves into it.
我们觉得之后总能修复的。
We felt that they can always fix it afterwards.
对。
Right.
相信导演。
Trust the director.
相信后期团队。
Trust the processor.
好的。
Yeah.
行吧。
Alright.
你知道吗，我想聊聊HBO剧集《切尔诺贝利》，你在2019年曾在这部剧中扮演重要角色。
You know, I wanted to talk about the HBO series Chernobyl, which you had a major role in in 2019.
这是关于1986年乌克兰切尔诺贝利核电站事故的，那是历史上最严重的核事故。
It's about this accident at the Chernobyl Nuclear Plant in Ukraine in 1986, the worst nuclear accident in history.
你饰演一位苏联政府高级部长，在爆炸次日被苏联领导人派去调查此事，你在这里是一位非常强势的同志。
And you play a high ranking Soviet government minister who is assigned the day after the explosion by the head of the Soviet Union to go and investigate it, and you are a very formidable comrade here.
当你和那位科学家一起乘坐直升机时，你让他解释反应堆的工作原理，他犹豫了一下，你说：告诉我，否则我就让士兵把你从直升机窗户扔出去。
You you when when you're traveling in helicopter with the scientist with you and you ask him to explain how the reactor works and he hesitates, you say, tell me, or I'm gonna have a soldier throw you out the window of the helicopter.
我们将听到的场景是，你和其他负责应对反应堆事故的人意识到，如果不让工厂的三名志愿者涉入受损反应堆下方严重污染的水中关闭一些阀门，就可能发生灾难性的辐射泄漏，而他们几乎肯定会受到致命剂量的辐射而无法生还。
The scene we're gonna hear is one where you and others managing the response to this reactor realize that there could be a catastrophic release of radiation if you don't get three volunteers from the plant to wade into some very badly contaminated water under the crippled reactor and shut down some valves, they're almost certain to get a lethal dose of radiation and not survive.
在那个场景中，你坐在房间一侧，而首席科学家正试图让工人们自愿承担这项危险任务，告诉他们会有现金奖励，但他们察觉到了风险，心存疑虑。
And in the scene, you're in the room kind of sitting at the side while the lead scientist is trying to get workers to volunteer for this dangerous assignment, telling them they'll get a cash bonus, but they sense the risk and they're skeptical.
然后在某个时刻，你直接站起来接手了指挥。
And and at some point, you just stand up and take charge.
我想，其中一位持怀疑态度的工人先开口了。
I think one of the workers who's skeptical speaks first.
我们来听一下。
Let's listen.
我们为什么要这么做？
Why should we do this?
为了什么？
For what?
就为了400卢布？
400 rubles?
你们必须去做，因为这是必须完成的任务。
You'll do it because it must be done.
你们必须去做，因为没有其他人能做。
You'll do it because nobody else can.
如果你们不去做，数百万人将会死去。
And if you don't, millions will die.
如果你们告诉我这还不够，我是不会相信的。
And if you tell me that's not enough, I won't believe you.
这就是我们民族一直以来的独特之处，我们血脉中流淌着千年的牺牲精神，每一代人都必须经历自己的苦难。
This is what has always set our people apart, a thousand years of sacrifice in our veins, and every generation must know its own suffering.
我唾弃那些干出这种事的人，而且我不得不为此付出代价，这并不让我意外。
I spit on the people who did this, and I can't surprise I have to pay.
我正在与这件事和解。
I'm making my peace with it.
现在你也得和解，然后下到那水里去，因为这事必须完成。
Now you make yours and go into that water, because it must be done.
这就是我们的嘉宾，斯特兰·斯卡斯加德，在HBO剧集《切尔诺贝利》中的表现。
And that is our guest, Stellan Skarsgard, in the HBO series Chernobyl.
这段内容很有力量。
This is powerful stuff here.
你在这里扮演的角色鲍里斯·谢尔比纳，是一个真实存在的人物，苏联当局让他参与管理应对工作，最终他因辐射病去世了，对吗？
The guy that you play here, Boris Sherbina, was a real real guy, who Soviet aboratia got involved in managing the response and and eventually died because of the radiation sickness, didn't he?
是的。
Yeah.
跟我们讲讲你是如何进入这个角色的。
Tell us about getting into this character.
这是个很有意思的角色，因为他相信这个体制，并且坚信它是有效的。
It's an interesting character because he he believes in the system, and he believes in that it works.
你知道，苏联体制或任何威权体制都是建立在忠诚和相互欺骗的基础上的。
You know, the Soviet system or any authoritarian system is based on on loyalty and lies to else.
如果你被要求出于对权力的忠诚而呈现谎言，你实际上会破坏一切。
And if you're asked out of loyalty to the power to present lies, you will sort of undermine the the everything.
系统中的每个人都在核反应堆系统的一切事情上撒谎，因为事实并不重要。
And everybody in the system were lying about everything in the in the in the nuclear reactor system because facts didn't count.
他们在生活的方方面面都习惯了说谎。
They were used to lying in all aspects of life.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
同样重要的是不能兴风作浪，不能引起上级的注意，也不能以任何方式引发争议。
And it was also important to not rock the boat, not draw attention from your superiors, and not sort of be controversial in any way.
坐在船上别动。
Sit still in the boat.
但当他发现这场灾难的难以想象的规模时，他逐渐清醒过来，意识到这是我们自己造成的。
But when he discovers the unfathomable size of this catastrophe, He gradually comes to his senses and and realizes that we've made this ourselves.
这是一个很有趣的角色可以演绎。
And and that's an interesting character to play.
然后，当然，他最终意识到自己也会死。
And then, of course, he realizes eventually that he'll he'll die as well.
但对他来说，最大的顿悟并不是他即将死去。
But to him, the big revelation is not that he's gonna die.
而是他一生所服务的这个系统是有缺陷的。
It's that the system that he has been serving all his life is flawed.
对。
Right.
还有许多其他反应堆也存在导致这场灾难的相同缺陷，但没人愿意处理这个问题，因为他们彼此之间不说真话。
And there are many, many other reactors with the same flaws that led to this disaster, and nobody wants to deal with that because they're not telling each other the truth.
我们正在采访瑞典演员斯科特·斯卡斯加德。
We are speaking with Swedish actor Stellan Skarsgaard.
他入围了3月15日举行的奥斯卡颁奖典礼最佳男配角奖。
He's up for the best supporting actor at the Academy Awards ceremony March 15.
广告后我们继续深入交谈。
We'll talk more after this break.
这是新鲜空气。
This is fresh air.
今年，在NPR历史播客《Throughline》中。
This year on Throughline, NPR's history podcast.
几代人以来，一个美国式的追求塑造了世界。
For generations, an American quest has shaped the world.
生命、自由、对幸福的追求。
Life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness.
如今二百五十年过去，这一追求究竟意味着什么？
Now two hundred fifty years in, what is that pursuit really about?
每周二请加入我们，收听ThruLine推出的全新系列节目《美国的追求》，可在NPR应用程序或任何播客平台获取。
Join us each Tuesday for an essential new series, America in Pursuit, from ThruLine, on the NPR app, or wherever you get podcasts.
有一次我在酒吧火车上遇到这个人，当时我带着我的贝斯。
I met this guy on the bar train one time, and I had my bass with me.
然后他说，伙计，你想做什么？
And he goes, man, what do you wanna do?
你的梦想是什么？
What what's your dream?
我是杰西·索恩。
I'm Jesse Thorne.
在《靶心》节目中，拉斐尔·西迪克。
On Bullseye, Raphael Siddiq.
他获得了奥斯卡提名。
He's nominated for an Oscar.
他曾为王子乐队弹奏贝斯。
He played bass for Prince.
而且，当然，他还是Tony Tony Tony的联合创始人。
And, of course, he cofounded Tony Tony Tony.
然后我说，我想和我哥哥组个乐队。
And I go, I wanna be in a band with my brother.
这将在下一期《Bullseye》中播出。
That's on the next bullseye.
你可以在NPR应用、maximumfund.org或任何你收听播客的地方找到我们。
Find us in the NPR app at maximumfund.org or wherever you get podcasts.
你知道，你拍了很多独立电影，但也有不少商业作品，经常扮演一些有权势、有时甚至是邪恶的角色。
You know, you've done a lot of independent films, but plenty of commercial work and often playing characters that are powerful, sometimes evil.
我想请你简单谈谈在科幻系列《沙丘》中的角色，你饰演了一个银河系反派，哈克南男爵。
And I wanted just you just tell us a little bit about the role in Dune, the science fiction series, which you play a galactic bad guy, Baron Harkonnen.
我可以播放一段片段，但音频无法完全展现其魅力，因为真正令人惊叹的是你的造型。
I could play a clip, but the audio wouldn't do it justice because what's amazing is what you look like.
你愿意描述一下你的角色，以及每天上妆准备需要做些什么吗？
You wanna you wanna describe your character and what it took to get ready every day?
嗯，化妆花了八个小时。
Well, it took eight hours of makeup.
八个小时？
Eight hours?
哇。
Wow.
八个小时。
Eight eight hours.
需要用到很多假体。
It is a lot of prosthetics.
我的意思是，我增加了40公斤的泡沫来增重。
I mean, I I I added 40 kilos of foam to my weight.
我扮演的是这个肥胖的怪物哈科宁，他是个皇帝，他在电影里只有一个任务，那就是成为邪恶的化身。
I'm playing this fat monster Hakkonen, and he's a he's an emperor, and he he has one job in the film, and that is to be the sort of the very epitome of evil.
而他确实做到了。
And he is.
你根本不在乎他的心理动机，或者他小时候受过什么伤之类的。
You you you don't care about his psychological motives or where he was wounded as a kid or whatever.
你只需要他具有令人恐惧的物理存在感。
You just need him to have a physical frightening presence.
为了维持这种令人恐惧的物理存在感，你不能通过让他出现在每一个场景中来削弱他。
And to keep that physical frightening presence, you can't sort of dilute him by letting him be in every scene.
你必须让他只出现在少数几个场景中，但在这些场景中要极其强大。
You have to have him as a few scenes as possible, but immensely powerful in those scenes.
而且，他们还有一个非常好的想法，就是你第一次见到他时，他是赤身裸体的。
And, also, they had the idea, which was very good, that he's naked the first time you see him.
然后，他穿着一种类似丝绸睡衣的东西。
And then, that he is in a sort of pajama silky thing.
他们还给他加了很多类似漫威风格的盔甲，让他看起来像个漫威角色。
And they also had a lot of, more like Marvel stuff, armor on him, which made him look like a a Marvel character.
但我觉得那样只会削弱他的形象。
But, that would just reduce him, I said.
所以你必须注意到，他赤身裸体时比穿着那些盔甲更吓人。
So what you have to do is notice that he will be more frightening naked than in those armors.
他不必展示他的手臂。
And he doesn't have to show his arms.
他不必展示他的肌肉或任何东西。
He doesn't have to show his guns or anything.
我们就是这么做的。
And that's what we did.
这确实是个挑战，塑造那种无需解释、没有借口、毫不妥协的角色，做起来很有趣。
And that was that's a challenge, and that was fun to do that kind of character that is that is not explained, that has no excuse for being who he is, and that is totally without compromise.
是的。
Yeah.
在我为这次采访做准备，回顾你的职业生涯时，确实感到非常了不起。
As I was getting ready for this interview and looking over your career, it's really remarkable.
你知道，你和我年龄相差并不大。
I you know, you and I are not that far from the same age.
而且，你知道，我这份工作让我能为一个广播节目采访像你这样非常有趣的人，但我确实能感受到年龄的影响。
And, you know, I have this job where I get to talk to really interesting people like you for a radio program, but I feel the effects of age.
你知道的吧？
You know?
我不确定自己还能继续做多久，能否继续保持这个水准。
I don't know how much longer I'm gonna be able to do this and and kind of meet the standard.
我想，你从未像现在这样如此抢手，毕竟你获得了奥斯卡提名，拍了这么一部出色的电影，而且备受追捧。
You've kind of never been a hotter property, I guess, than now when you got this Oscar nomination and this terrific film and you're in demand.
我想知道，你是如何看待未来的几年的？
I'm wondering kind of how you think about the coming years.
你如何保持敏锐？
How do you stay sharp?
你有没有什么身体或心理上的锻炼，或者饮食方面的习惯？
Do you have, you know, physical or mental exercises or diet?
你知道的吧？
You know?
我深受中风的影响。
Well, I've been very much affected by the strokes.
我没有以前那么爱思考了，这让我很困扰，真的很烦人。
I I I don't think as much as I did, and I have problems with that, and, it's annoying.
比如，有些书的一页上只有一行字，中间没有任何逗号，这种文字我读起来很吃力。
And, for instance, some books, if they have, you know, one line is is over the whole page without any commas, that's hard for me to read.
我喜欢阅读。
And I like reading.
但另一方面，我仍然可以工作，因为演员这份工作并不需要太多脑力。
But on the other hand, I can still work because, being an actor is not a very intellectual work.
所以我仍然可以工作，也仍然能感受到情感。
So, I I can still work, and I can still feel.
天啊，听你说演员不是一份很脑力的工作，真是有趣。
God, it's funny to say hear you say that being an actor is not a very intellectual work.
也许你拍了太多电影，这些对你来说已经变得很自然了。
Maybe you've done so many films that this comes more naturally to you.
把它看作一份要求很高的职业。
Think of it as a pretty demanding profession.
嗯，我觉得所有演员都希望自己从事的是脑力劳动，但其实不是。
Well, I think all actors wanted to be an intellectual intellectual work, worker.
他们编造各种理由，好让自己觉得这份工作配得上他们挣的那么多钱，但其实并不配。
They make up all kinds of things to to feel that they're doing a job that is that is worthy of all the money they get, but it's not.
我的意思是，在某些场景或情况下，业余演员的表现可能比专业演员还好。
I mean, you can have an amateur play better than a professional actor in some scenes and in some cases.
你必须得和业余演员一样出色。
And you have to be as good as an amateur.
你必须呈现出真实的生活、真实的非理性、那些突然、意外涌现的真实情感。
You have to produce real life, real irrationality, real emotions that comes up spontaneously, suddenly, unexpectedly.
这跟解一道智力谜题毫无关系。
And it has nothing to do with laying an intellectual puzzle.
是的。
Yeah.
你如何看待你的这么多孩子都从事表演行业？
How do you feel that so many of your children are working as actors?
你有鼓励他们吗？
Did you encourage it?
我没有鼓励，也没有阻止。
I didn't encourage it, and I didn't discourage it.
我认为父母根本不应该把自己的梦想强加给孩子。
I don't think that parents should impose their their dreams on the kids at all.
他们不应该干涉孩子的选择。
They they shouldn't interfere with their choices.
如果他们需要建议，自然会来找你。
If they want an advice, they'll come to you.
某种程度上，我很高兴，因为大多数孩子和我有共同话题可以聊。
In a way, I'm happy because we have something in common we can talk about, most of them.
我有一个孩子是医生，不在这个行业。
I have one doctor that is not in the business.
我跟他什么都聊不了。
I can't talk to him about anything.
但回忆、亲人和生活。
But memories and relatives and life.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
没错。
Right.
不。
No.
不。
No.
我只是在开玩笑。
I'm just joking.
是的。
Yeah.
我们确实不谈工作，意思是我不给他们建议，他们也不会向我寻求建议，因为那没什么用。
We we we don't talk shop in the sense that I give them advice or they ask for advice because that's not useful.
但在我们的晚餐时，我们会拿别人开玩笑。
But we we at our dinners, we laugh at people.
我们会八卦圈子里的人，聊聊那位导演、那位演员，以及他们有没有行为不端。
We gossip about people in the business, and we tell about that director and that actor and if they misbehave.
所以我们就像普通人一样。
And so it's just we're we're like normal people.
是的。
Yeah.
听你和你的孩子们八卦，那部电影一定会很有趣。
That would be a fun movie hearing you gossip with your with your kids.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
你知道，我能想象你不会想给他们表演技巧之类的建议，但我好奇的是，关于如何在行业中生存，比如选错经纪人或者签了糟糕的合同这些容易犯的错误，有没有什么可以教他们的？
You know, I I can imagine that you wouldn't wanna give them advice about acting technique and all that, but I wonder if, you know, there are things to learn about just navigating the business, mistakes you can make with the wrong agent or signing a bad contract.
你会在这方面帮助他们吗？
Do you help them with that side?
不会。
No.
不。
No.
而且他们也不会问。
And they don't ask.
但是，他们可能通过我对名声这类事情的态度，了解到我的一些看法。
But, probably, they've learned some things about my attitude through my attitude to fame and stuff like that.
所以，他们从所见所闻中学到自己想学的东西。
And so they they learn what they want from what they see.
对。
Right.
就是这样。
And that's it.
你不能强加给他们。
You can't sort of impose it on them.
而这种态度就是尝试新事物，创作好的艺术。
And that attitude being try new stuff, do good art.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得是这样。
I think so.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
而且要以一种自由的方式表达自己，不要受任何人要求的束缚。
And and to be free in a way in your expressions and not go by the the demands of anybody.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
斯特兰·斯卡斯加德，非常感谢您与我们交谈。
Stellan Skarsgard, thank you so much for speaking with us.
非常感谢。
Thank you very much.
这真是一次愉快的交流。
It's been a pleasure.
斯特兰·斯卡斯加德因在电影《情感价值》中的表演赢得了金球奖，并获得了奥斯卡提名，该片现已上线。
Stellan Skarsgard has won a Golden Globe Award and earned an Oscar nomination for his performance in the film Sentimental Value, which is now streaming.
奥斯卡颁奖典礼将于3月15日举行。
The Academy Awards ceremony is March 15.
接下来，莫琳·科里根将点评阿莱格拉·古德曼的新小说。
Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews the new novel from Allegra Goodman.
这里是《新鲜空气》节目。
This is fresh air.
阿莱格拉·古德曼的最新小说名为《这不是关于我们》，但我们的书评人莫琳·科里根认为这个标题有些含蓄。
Allegra Goodman's latest novel is called This Is Not About Us, but our book critic Maureen Corrigan says that title is coy.
古德曼的读者很可能会在这些书页中看到自己和家人的影子。
Goodman's readers are bound to see aspects of themselves and their families in these pages.
这是她的评论。
Here's her review.
大约二十年前，一张蛛网垂落在我右眼上。
Some twenty years ago, a cobweb descended over my right eye.
我原以为是偏头痛，结果却是视网膜半脱落。
What I thought was a migraine turned out to be a semi detached retina.
即使现在说出这些话，仍让我不寒而栗。
Even saying those words now makes me flinch.
手术后，我侧躺着好几天，眼睛上一直戴着护眼罩。
After surgery, I lay still for days on my side, eye patch in place.
那时候，我丈夫和女儿去我们当地的图书馆为我找有声读物。
Back then, my husband and daughter went to our local library to find books on tape for me.
因为就在这件可怕的事情发生前，我刚评论过阿莱格拉·古德曼的小说《直觉》，所以他们带回了古德曼早期两部小说的磁带——《卡特斯基尔瀑布》和《马科维茨一家》。
Since I'd reviewed Allegra Goodman's novel Intuition just before this scary event happened, they brought home cassettes of two of Goodman's earlier novels, Caterskill Falls and The Family Markowitz.
我很幸运，视力恢复了。
I was lucky and my sight recovered.
所以现在，我把那段被困在沙发上、听着古德曼的小说缓缓展开的时光，视为我一生中最田园诗般的阅读体验之一。
So now I think of that interlude of being marooned on the couch, listening to Goodman's novels unspool as one of the most idyllic reading experiences of my life.
正因如此，尽管我一直关注着古德曼的作品，但我对阅读她的新小说《这不是关于我们》还是有所犹豫。
Which is why, even though I've kept up with Goodman's work, I was hesitant to read her new novel, This Is Not About Us.
她的大部分作品都探索了强烈而封闭的世界，从癌症研究者和直觉的实验室，到《食谱收藏家》中的珍本书狂热者，再到去年《伊索拉》中十六世纪漂流者的岛屿监狱。
Most of her books have explored intense and enclosed worlds, from the labs of cancer researchers and intuition to rare book zealots in the cookbook collector to the island prison of a sixteenth century castaway in last year's Isola.
然而，《这不是关于我们》却有所不同。
This is not about us, however, is different.
这部作品在形式和主题上都回归到了三十年前出版的《马科维茨一家》。
It's a throwback in form and subject to the family Markowitz, which came out thirty years ago.
两部小说都是关于一个犹太家庭三代人的家庭故事，并且都采用了一系列相互关联的故事结构，让不同的家庭成员轮流成为焦点。
Both novels are domestic tales about three generations of a Jewish family, and both are structured as a series of linked stories in which various family members take center stage.
我曾担心回归熟悉的模式可能意味着古德曼作为作家的创作力正在枯竭。
I worried that returning to a familiar formula might mean that Goodman was running out of energy as a writer.
然后我开始阅读，便不再担忧了。
Then I started reading and stopped worrying.
读完《这不是关于我们》后，不骗你，我又读了一遍，只为细细品味所有那些相互关联，以及家庭成员之间对彼此看法的种种转变。
When I finished This Is Not About Us, I kid you not, I read it a second time just to savor all the interconnections, all the shifts in family members' opinions of each other.
《这不是关于我们》以74岁的琼——鲁宾斯坦三姐妹中最年轻的那位——漫长的临终场景开篇。
This Is Not About Us opens at the prolonged deathbed of Jean, who at 74 is the youngest of the three Rubenstein sisters.
琼的房子里摆满了鲜花。
Jean's house is packed with flowers.
儿媳梅兰妮送的向日葵，隔壁奥尔巴赫家送的玫瑰，这些花让她感到压抑，尤其是那些已经开始凋谢的。
The sunflowers from her daughter-in-law, Melanie, the roses from the Auerbach's next door, the flowers depressed her, especially those already wilting.
当她看着那些花时，她觉得自己死得不够快。
When she looked at the moms, she felt she wasn't dying fast enough.
讽刺的琼终究还是离世了，而这里的氛围也因此变得阴沉，并非因为她的死亡，而是因为二姐西尔维娅在琼的七日丧期内端上来的一个苹果蛋糕。
Sardonic Jean does inevitably depart, and that's when the mood here darkens, not because of her death, but because of an apple cake that middle sister Sylvia serves at Jean Shiva.
这个苹果蛋糕的食谱最初来自鲁宾斯坦家的大姐海伦，但海伦不像西尔维娅那样有烘焙天赋。
The apple cake recipe originally came from the eldest Rubenstein sister, Helen, but Helen is not a gifted baker like Sylvia.
当西尔维娅用散发着温暖甜美苹果香气的环形蛋糕，诱使整个大家族围聚在一起时，海伦却愤然离开了丧礼现场，并且拒绝原谅西尔维娅——好吧，古德曼将这个荒谬又痛苦的家庭裂痕中情感冲击力极强的结局，一直推迟到了她小说的最后几页。
When Sylvia entices the entire extended family to gather around a Bundt cake that emits the warm sweet fragrance of apples, Helen storms out of the shiva, and she refuses to forgive Sylvia for well, Goodman postpones the emotionally overwhelming ending to this preposterous and painful family rift till the very last pages of her novel.
《这并非关于我们》的17个章节可以作为独立故事存在，但它们通过微妙地改变我们对家庭成员最初印象的方式，逐渐累积起力量。
The 17 chapters of this is not about us can stand as independent stories, but they accrue power from the subtle ways in which they alter our initial impressions of family members.
例如，《交易破坏者》聚焦于海伦的大女儿帕姆，她五十出头，单身。
Dealbreaker, for example, focuses on Helen's older daughter, Pam, who's in her early fifties and single.
在更早的一个故事中，另一个角色将帕姆描述为一个黑洞，一个即使在最好的时候也总是侧目而视的人。
In an earlier story, another character describes Pam as a black hole, someone who, at the best of times, looked askance.
但在《交易破坏者》中，我们看到帕姆深受打击，因为她意识到她所爱的男人永远会把他的前妻和十几岁的女儿放在首位。
But in deal breaker, we see Pam cut to the quick when she realizes the man she loves will always put his ex wife and teenage daughter first.
就在这时，她母亲海伦那超凡的记仇能力——记得那块苹果蛋糕——成了支撑帕姆的力量。
That's when her mother Helen's superhuman ability to hold a grudge, remember the apple cake, becomes a quality that fortifies Pam.
帕姆在与父母谈论分手原因时，难以形容前男友对前妻和女儿的坚定忠诚。
Talking with her parents about the reason for the breakup, Pam struggles to characterize her ex boyfriend's steadfast loyalty to his ex wife and daughter.
她问母亲，有没有什么词能形容那些整个冬天都紧抓树叶不放的树。
She asks her mother for the word that describes those trees that hold onto their leaves all winter.
常青树，”海伦说，因为她知道所有词的含义。
Marcessant, says Helen, because she knows the word for everything.
她真是个谜一般的人。
She is such a puzzler.
他就是这样，”帕姆对父母说。
That's how he is, Pam tells her parents.
对他来说很好，”海伦说，而帕姆知道，她的意思其实是“活该滚蛋”。
Good for him, says Helen, And Pam knows she means good riddance.
帕姆不禁钦佩母亲的清醒。
Pam can't help but admire her mother's clarity.
海伦很难相处。
Helen is difficult.
她令人生畏，但行事干脆利落。
She's daunting, but she's crisp.
她从不拖泥带水。
She never clings.
古德曼本人作为一名作家，也颇有几分‘枯而不落’的特质。
Goodman herself is pretty marcescent as a writer.
她始终坚守着自早期作品以来便标志性的天赋：心理洞察力、幽默感，以及对因志趣相投、职业或血缘关系而联结的人们之间那变幻莫测的化学反应所抱持的持久好奇心。
She holds fast to the gifts that have marked her since her earliest books, psychological acuity, humor, and an abiding curiosity about the volatile chemistry of people bound together by affinity, profession, or blood.
莫琳·科里根在乔治城大学教授文学。
Maureen Corrigan teaches literature at Georgetown University.
她评论了阿莱格拉·古德曼的《这不是关于我们》。
She reviewed this is not about us by Allegra Goodman.
在明天的节目中，随着特朗普总统权衡对伊朗的打击、向其新成立的和平委员会承诺数十亿美元、派遣非常规团队谈判以结束乌克兰战争，并仍怀有收购格陵兰岛的野心，我们将与《纽约时报》的大卫·桑格进行对话。
On tomorrow's show, as president Trump weighs an attack on Iran, pledges billions to his new board of peace, has an unconventional team negotiating to end the war in Ukraine, and still harbors ambitions to acquire Greenland, we speak with the New York Times' David Sanger.
我们将讨论特朗普的国际议程以及最高法院关税裁决的影响。
We'll discuss Trump's international agenda and the impact of the Supreme Court decision on tariffs.
希望您能加入我们。
I hope you can join us.
《新鲜空气》的执行制作人是萨姆·布里格。
Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Brigger.
我们的技术总监兼工程师是奥黛丽·本瑟姆。
Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.
我们得到了亚当·斯塔尼舍夫斯基的额外工程协助。
We had additional engineering help from Adam Staniszewski.
我们的访谈和评论由菲利斯·迈尔斯、安妮·玛丽·巴尔达纳多、劳伦·克伦泽尔、特蕾莎·马登、莫妮克·拿撒勒、西娅·查林杰、苏珊·雅昆迪、安娜·鲍曼和尼科·冈萨雷斯·惠斯勒制作和编辑。
Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Challenger, Susan Yacundi, Anna Baumann, and Nico Gonzalez Whistler.
我们的数字媒体制作人是莫莉·C。
Our digital media producer is Molly C.
V。
V.
内斯珀。
Nesper.
罗伯塔·肖洛克负责该节目的制作。
Roberta Shorrock directs the show.
代表特里·格罗斯和塔尼娅·莫斯利，我是戴夫·戴维斯。
For Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley, I'm Dave Davies.
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