《林中之神》作者莉兹·摩尔

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这里是《新鲜空气》。

This is Fresh Air.

我是戴夫·戴维斯。

I'm Dave Davies.

今天我们邀请的嘉宾、作家莉兹·摩尔正处在创作高峰期。

Our guest today, writer Liz Moore, is on something of a role.

她的上两部小说都成为了全国畅销书。

Her last two novels were national bestsellers.

第一部是《长明河》，一部关于一名女警在费城一个动荡社区巡逻，而她的吸毒妹妹是一名性工作者的惊悚小说，已被改编为Peacock平台的八集电视剧。

One, Long Bright River, a thriller about a policewoman patrolling a troubled Philadelphia neighborhood where her drug using sister is a sex worker, was made into an eight part TV series on Peacock.

摩尔担任了该剧的执行制片人、联合创作者和联合编剧，主演阿曼达·塞弗里德因她的表演获得了金球奖提名。

Moore was an executive producer, cocreator, and a cowriter of the series, and its star, Amanda Seyfried, has earned a Golden Globe nomination for her performance.

摩尔最新的畅销书《森林之神》设定在阿迪朗达克山脉一个偏远的儿童营地，一名年轻营员神秘失踪。

Moore's latest bestseller, the god of the woods, is set in a remote children's camp in the Adirondacks where a young camper goes mysteriously missing.

我们的书评人莫琳·科里根说，她读这本书时，'完全沉浸在一个丰富的虚构世界中，数小时都几乎没喘过气来。'

Our book critic Maureen Corrigan said when she read it, quote, I was so thoroughly submerged in a rich fictional world that for hours I barely came up for air.

Netflix已宣布将制作一部基于《森林之神》的限定剧集。

Netflix has announced it will produce a limited TV series based on the god of the woods.

摩尔的小说展现了极为广泛的题材。

Moore's novels show quite a range of subjects.

她早期的一部小说《沉重》的主角是一位体重四百五十磅、足不出户的布鲁克林居民，渴望人际联系。

The central character in an earlier novel titled Heft is a four hundred fifty pound shut in in Brooklyn who longs for human connection.

莉兹·摩尔于2014年获得罗马奖文学奖，她最近的两本书都被列入巴拉克·奥巴马的推荐读物名单。

Liz Moore won the 2,014 Rome Prize in literature, and her two most recent books were on Barack Obama's lists of recommended reading.

莉兹·摩尔与家人住在费城，这里正是《新鲜空气》节目的制作地，她还担任坦普尔大学创意写作硕士项目的负责人。

Liz Moore lives with her family in Philadelphia where Fresh Air is produced, and she directs Temple University's master of fine arts program in creative writing.

莉兹·摩尔，欢迎来到《新鲜空气》。

Liz Moore, welcome to Fresh Air.

谢谢你，戴夫。

Thank you, Dave.

我非常高兴能来到这里。

I'm so happy to be here.

我们来聊聊《长亮河》吧。

Let's talk about Longbright River.

这部小说设定在费城的一个街区——肯辛顿，这个地区已经引起了全国的关注。

This is set in this Philadelphia neighborhood, Kensington, which has gotten some national attention.

它之所以成为区域性吸毒者中心，是因为人们发现这里可以买到毒品。

It's become a regional center for drug users just because it was a place where people learned they could score drugs.

他们可以在这里吸毒，也可以贩毒。

They could use drugs or deal drugs.

在某些情况下，多年来，人们一直住在人行道上和废弃的房子里。

And in some cases, over the years, people have been living on sidewalks and in abandoned houses.

因此，这在很多方面都是一个大问题。

And so it's been a big issue in a lot of ways.

我还要提一下这个社区的另一点：有一条高架地铁线沿着肯辛顿大道运行，而这条大道可以说是这个社区的主轴。

The other thing I'll just note about the neighborhood is that there's an elevated subway train that runs over Kensington Avenue, which is sort of the spine of the neighborhood.

所以即使在白天，整个商业区也笼罩在阴影中，给人一种狄更斯式的感觉。

So that even in the daylight, it's that whole area, which is a business area, is kinda cast into shadow and gives it a sort of Dickensian feel.

那么，是什么让你选择把这个地方作为小说的背景呢？

So what made you wanna make this the setting for a book?

我不是费城人。

I am not from Philadelphia.

我是在马萨诸塞州长大的。

I grew up in Massachusetts.

我曾经在纽约住过一段时间。

I lived in New York for a time.

我丈夫来自这个地区。

My husband is from this area.

2009年我们一起来到这里时，我正在寻找社区归属感，也在寻找写作项目。

When we arrived here together in 2009, I was looking for community and I was looking for writing projects.

当时有一位摄影师正在为费城废弃的房屋拍摄肖像，他叫杰弗里·斯托克布里奇，他邀请我随他一起去采访他正在拍摄肖像的肯辛顿居民。

And a photographer who was at the time making portraits of abandoned homes the city of Philadelphia, his name was Jeffrey Stockbridge, invited me to go with him to interview some of the residents of Kensington that he was making portraits of.

这已经是很久以前的事了。

This was a long time ago.

那时，肯辛顿本身还没有获得如今这样的全国性关注。

And so Kensington itself was not receiving the national attention that it now receives.

所以当我去那里时，我相当天真，对将要看到的一切几乎没有心理准备。

So when I went there, I was kind of naive and I was a little bit unprepared for what I would see.

但我立刻被这个社区在各种资源上所遭受的忽视所震撼——这些资源本是城市或州政府可以提供的。

But what I was immediately struck by was how much the neighborhood had been failed in various ways in terms of resources that the city or the state could offer it.

此外，我还与当时采访的那些人进行了极其动人、有趣且复杂的对话。

And also just the incredibly moving and interesting and complex conversations I had with the people I was interviewing at the time.

这成为了一篇摄影散文。

That became a photo essay.

我很少写非虚构作品，但正是非虚构写作让我以一种虚构的方式对这个社区产生了兴趣。

And I rarely do nonfiction writing, but it was actually nonfiction writing that caused me to take an interest in the neighborhood in a fictional way.

我的家族有着长期的成瘾史。

My own family has a long history of addiction.

由于这个原因，我一次又一次被情感上拉回到这个社区。

I was kind of emotionally drawn back to the neighborhood over and over again because of that.

我开始与圣弗朗西斯之家开展社区工作。

I began doing community work with St.

在那里的一家女性日间庇护所举办免费写作工作坊。

Francis Inn, running free writing workshops at a women's day shelter there.

尽管这并非正式的研究，但它构成了我在肯辛顿的生活经验背景，最终形成了故事的背景。

And although it was not active research, it functioned as the backdrop of, like, life experience that I had in Kensington that ultimately formed the setting.

是的。

Yeah.

故事的核心是两位姐妹。

There are two sisters who are at the heart of this story.

给我们讲讲她们吧。

Tell us about them.

米基是费城警察局的一名巡逻警官。

So Mickey is a patrol officer with the Philadelphia Police Department.

从小说开篇起，她就谈到自己其实并不适合当警察。

And from the opening of the novel, she talks about how she's really not cut out for police work.

她形容自己并不是那种会第一个挺身而出、拿生命冒险的警员。

She she describes herself as, you know, not the first officer to, like, put her life on the line.

我想把她塑造成一个典型的‘水土不服’型角色，这是我喜欢的手法。

I wanted to make her a very, kind of a fish out of water character, which I love to do.

她的妹妹凯西一直问题不断。

Her sister, Casey, has always been troubled.

这对姐妹来自同一个家庭，由祖母抚养长大，因为她们的母亲死于过量吸毒。

The two sisters came out of the same family raised by a grandmother because they lost their own mother to overdose.

凯西比米奇小一点点

Casey's just a little bit younger than

凯西比米奇小一点。

Casey's a little younger than Than Mickey.

比米奇小，她们从小非常亲密。

Than Mickey, and they grow up incredibly close.

但在小说开头，由于她们的人生走上了截然不同的道路，姐妹俩已经疏远了。

But at the start of the novel, they are estranged by virtue of the very different paths that their lives have taken.

米奇自认为是那个好妹妹，总是做出正确的选择，她把凯西塑造成所谓的‘坏妹妹’。

Mickey self identifies as kind of the good sister who's always made all the right choices, and she has cast Casey into this role of being the quote unquote bad sister.

但随着小说的发展，这些观念变得非常复杂，不过我就不多剧透了。

But those ideas become very complicated over the course of the novel without giving too much away.

对。

Right.

我们可以说凯西是肯辛顿大道上一名经常吸毒的性工作者。

We can say that Casey is a regular drug user and a sex worker on Kensington Avenue.

对吧？

Right?

嗯。

Yep.

凯西患有物质使用障碍。

Casey suffers from substance use disorder.

她从事生存性性交易。

She does survival sex work.

就在金斯敦地区发生一系列凶杀案的同时，她失踪了。

She goes missing at the same time that a string of homicides is occurring in the neighborhood of Kensington.

尽管米琪早已习惯妹妹长时间不在街上，比如她试图戒毒康复的时候，但这次失踪的时间点让米琪感到不安，于是她决定在工作之外也展开调查。

And although Mickey is used to seeing her sister absent from the streets for long periods of time while, for example, she's trying to get into recovery, the timing of this particular disappearance alarms Mickey, and she decides to kind of investigate off the job as well.

我想请你和我们分享一段朗读。

So there's a reading I'd like you to share with us.

这段文字是以米琪的口吻写的，也就是那位失踪的姐妹。

And this is it's in the voice of Mickey, the sister sister who's been missing.

她去见了她们的祖母，她称她为G。

And she goes to see their grandmother who she refers to as g.

她们在贫困中长大，因为母亲在她们非常年幼时就去世了。

They grew up in poverty because their mother died when they were very, very young.

她也患有成瘾问题。

She also suffered from addiction.

对吧？

Right?

我还要提到，Mickey有一个儿子，叫Thomas，在书中他四岁。

I'll also note that Mickey has a son, Thomas, who is four years old in in the book.

因此，在这段朗读中我们听到了对他的提及。

And so that is we hear a reference to that in the reading.

回家的路上，我给G打了电话。

On the way home, I called g.

我们最近几乎不怎么联系了。

We speak only rarely these days.

我们见面更少了。

We see each other even less.

托马斯出生时，我决定给他一个与我经历完全不同的成长环境，这意味着尽可能避免接触G，避免所有奥布赖恩家人。

When Thomas was born, I made the decision to give him an entirely different sort of upbringing than the one I experienced, and this means avoiding g, avoiding all the O'Brians really, as much as possible.

勉强地，

Begrudgingly,

出去

out

出于一种无法动摇的家庭责任感，我每年圣诞节前后都会例行公事地带托马斯去探望G，偶尔也会打电话给她，确认她是否还活着。

of some unshakable sense of family obligation, I perform the perfunctory ritual of bringing Thomas to visit Gee sometime around Christmas, and I phone her once in a while to make sure she's still alive.

尽管她偶尔会抱怨，但我认为她其实并不在意自己的缺席。

Although she complains about it on occasion, I don't think she's actually bothered by her absence.

她从不给我打电话。

She never calls me.

她从不主动帮忙照顾托马斯，尽管她身体健全，完全可以胜任她的餐饮工作，也能在廉价商店按时上班。

She never offers any help with Thomas, though she's able-bodied enough to work her catering job all right, and to put in her hours at Thriftway too.

最近，我越来越确信，如果我不再联系她，我们就再也不会说话了。

Lately, I've developed the conviction that if I stopped contacting her, we'd never speak again.

说吧，G在响了几声后接起电话，她总是这样接电话的。

Go ahead, says G after several rings, the same way she always answers the phone.

是我，我说，G说，谁啊？

It's me, I say, and G says, me who?

米奇，我说。

Mickey, I say.

哦，G说，没听出你的声音。

Oh, says G, didn't recognize your voice.

我停顿了一下，让那言外之意沉淀。

I pause letting the implication settle.

那老一套的愧疚之旅，它来了。

The perennial guilt trip, there it is.

我只是想知道，我说，你最近有没有Casey的消息。

I was just wondering, I say, whether you'd heard from Casey lately.

你为什么关心这个？

Why do you care?

G谨慎地说道。

Says G warily.

没什么原因，我说。

No raisin, I say.

没有，G说。

Nope, says G.

你知道我一向避着她。

You know I steer clear.

你知道她从不和我一起坐飞机。

You know her don't fly with me.

我避着她，她又强调了一遍。

I steer clear, she says again, just for emphasis.

好吧，我说。

All right, I say.

如果你听到她的消息，会告诉我吗？

Will you tell me if you hear from her?

你最近在忙什么？

What are you up to?

G怀疑地问。

Says G, suspicious.

没什么，我说。

Nothing, I say.

如果你知道什么对你好，你也会躲得远远的，

You'd stay away too, says G, if you knew what was good for you.

我知道，我说。

I do, I say.

短暂停顿后，G说：我知道你知道，语气放心了。

After a brief pause, G says, I know you do, reassured.

我的宝贝怎么样？

How's my baby?

吉说，转移了话题。

Says Gee, changing the subject.

她对托马斯一直比对我们更温柔。

She has always been kinder to Thomas than she ever was to us.

每次见到他，她都会宠着他，从钱包里掏出一大堆陈旧的、半融化的糖果，亲手剥开喂给他。

She spoils him when she sees him, produces from her purse mountains of ancient half melted candy that she unwraps and feeds him with her hands.

从这些小小的善举中，我看到了她当年对待自己女儿——我们的母亲丽莎——时的影子。

I see in these small charities an echo of the way she must have been with her own daughter, our mother Lisa.

他最近状态很好，我说，其实并非真心。

He's very fresh these days, I say, not meaning it.

你别说了，吉说。

You stop, says Gee.

终于，我隐约听出她声音里带着一丝微笑。

Very faintly at last, I hear a smile in her voice.

你别这样了。

You stop that.

别那样谈论我的儿子。

Don't talk about my boy like that.

他确实是，我说。

He is, I say.

我等着。

I wait.

我心中仍有一部分希望Gee会先主动联系，希望她会让我带托马斯过去，希望她会主动提出帮忙照看，希望她会问起要不要来看看我们的新家。

There is still a part of me that hopes that Gee will come around first, that she'll ask me to bring Thomas by, that she'll offer to babysit, that she'll ask to come see our new place.

还有别的吗？

Anything else?

Gee终于说道。

Gee says at last.

没有了，我说，我觉得就这些了。

No, I say, I think that's it.

还没等我再说什么，她就挂断了电话。

Before I can say anything further, she's hung up the phone.

你知道吗，让我印象深刻的是这种写作的简洁性。

You know, what strikes me about that is the economy of the writing.

我的意思是，你能非常鲜明地感受到这个女人，她的怨恨，她对生活给予她的遭遇的愤懑。

I mean, you get this very, very vivid sense of this woman, her, you know, resentment, her bitterness about the deal life has dealt her.

但这段文字还不到一页。

But it's barely a page.

你的章节都很短。

You have a lot of short chapters.

我很想知道，很多人说他们一口气读完你的书。

And I wonder, you know, so many people say they rip through your books.

人们告诉我，他们一个周末就读完了这本书。

People tell me they read that book in a weekend.

我也有同样的体验。

I felt the same experience.

这是你有意为之的吗？

Is this conscious, do you think?

我的意思是，你会刻意追求以简洁却富有戏剧性的方式完成作品吗？

I mean, do you work on getting things done concisely yet so dramatically?

想想看

Think

其中很大一部分是我写过但从未出现在出版书籍中的内容。

a huge part of it is the amount of writing that I do that never sees the published book.

我不断写作、写作、再写作，通常这些内容最终都不会被出版，但通过数小时、数页的写作，我真正地了解了我的角色，而最终呈现在书中的，可能只是一个两页的场景。

I write and write and write, and usually, it's stuff that I know won't ultimately be published, but I really get to know my characters through the hours and hours and pages and pages of writing I do before actually writing the two page scene that makes it into the book.

所以，我有时会把我的写作过程比作一棵树，我知道这本书大致会设定在什么地方。

So sometimes I describe my writing process like a tree where I know roughly, I know the place the book will be set.

我知道书中的主要角色，也知道触发事件或初始问题。

I know the main characters within the book, and I know only the inciting incident or the initial problem.

我在教学中也经常谈到这一点。

And I talk about this a lot in my teaching practice too.

比如，我只了解这三件事。

Like, I know those three things.

我朝着某个方向写作，这就像树的主干。

I write in a given direction, which functions kind of like the trunk of the tree.

但主干形成后，我必须让我的角色沿着不同的分支前行，将他们置于可能真实、也可能不真实的情境中。

But after the trunk is formed, I have to send my characters out on different branches to put them into situations that may or may not feel realistic for them.

如果我发现某个情境对他们来说不够真实，我就砍掉那条分支。

And if I'm finding that a situation doesn't feel realistic for them, then I lop that branch off.

我回到我所了解的内容。

I return to what I know.

我朝另一个方向长出新的分支。

I grow another branch in a different direction.

因此，我对G的构思从开始到结束发生了一些变化，而对Mickey这个角色的改变则更加明显。

So the way that I conceived of G changed a little bit from start to finish, and that's even more true of the character of Mickey.

在本书的早期草稿中，我最初把她设定为一名历史老师。

I initially conceived her as a history teacher in an early draft of this book.

她实际上并不是一名警察。

She was not actually a police officer.

但我决定，为了故事的需要，让她成为她姐姐的完全对立面，让她站在所谓的法律一边，而她姐姐则站在法律的另一边。

But I decided that for the sake of story, it would make more sense to make her a complete foil for her sister, to make her on the quote, unquote right side of the law and her sister on the wrong side of the law.

突然间，我开始写一个警察角色。

And then suddenly, I I was writing a police officer character.

所以当你写一本书时，这些分支存在于什么地方呢？

So when you're writing a book, you have all these branches which are exist in what?

是你电脑上的几十个Word文档吗？

Dozens of word documents on your computer?

几百个。

Hundreds.

是的。

Yeah.

我每写一本书都会有几百个Word文档，它们都有一堆奇怪的名字，比如‘G的餐饮服务’。

I have hundreds of word documents for every book that I write, and they all have weird names like, you know, g caterer.

如果我在某个版本里把G设定为餐饮服务员，我就会另存为，比如‘长亮河_G_银行柜员’之类的。

If I've if I've made g a caterer in one draft, then I might do a save as and and do, you know, long bright river g bank teller or whatever it is.

你知道的。

You know?

我通常会根据我所做的最明显的改动来命名文件。

What I I I usually name the the file with whatever the most obvious changes that I've made.

这本书被改编成了Peacock平台的剧集，你担任了联合创作者、联合编剧和执行制片人。

The book was made into a series on Peacock, you were a cocreator, cowriter, executive producer for.

它是在布鲁克林拍摄的，有点奇怪。

It was shot in Brooklyn, oddly.

尽管它看起来很像肯辛顿。

Although it looks a lot like Kensington.

我的意思是，真的非常像。

I mean, it really does.

我想象对于一个投入了如此多时间和精力来创作这部作品的作家来说，看到它被改编一定很难，因为你知道，这是不同的媒介。

I imagine it is hard for a writer who has put such time and effort into crafting this thing to see it adapted because, you know, it's a different medium.

有些东西肯定会改变。

Things are gonna change.

一些角色发生了变化。

Some characters change.

结局改了。

The ending changed.

你对这段经历感觉如何？

How did you feel about the experience?

这段经历非常有趣。

The experience was fascinating.

团队运动一直让我感到有些不安。

Team sports were something that I always felt kind of apprehensive about.

在制作《长亮河》这部剧集时，我也有同样的顾虑，因为我知道，尽管我是原著作者，但并不是剧集主管。

And I had the same apprehension going into the making of the series Long Bright River, because I knew that although I was the author, I wasn't the showrunner.

我对创意决策没有最终决定权，但同时也会有很多参与意见。

I wouldn't have ultimate say over creative decisions, but at the same time, would have a lot of input.

我可以有信心地说，我的意见得到了尊重。

And I do feel confident saying that my input was respected.

我们所有参与制作这部剧的人都一致同意的一点是，让肯辛顿社区的成员加入剧组的重要性，无论是作为现场顾问还是非现场顾问，也包括一些小角色。

And one thing that all of us agreed on, everybody who made the show, was the importance of bringing in members of the community of Kensington to set, both as on set consultants and offset consultants, and also in small roles.

来自圣方济各小教堂的迈克尔·达菲神父，

Father Michael Duffy from St.

在剧中饰演了一位神父，这对他来说并不算太勉强。

Francis Inn actually played a priest, which was not a stretch for him in the series.

音乐人OT the Real，他在肯辛顿已经小有成就，饰演了一个相当重要的角色，名叫Doc的角色。

The musician, OT the Real, who has kind of made a career in Kensington, played a pretty large role, a character called Doc.

我们还有来自肯辛顿的其他音乐家。

And we had other musicians from Kensington.

来自The Roots的James Poiser是我们的作曲家，也是我们剧集的两位作曲家之一。

James Poiser from The Roots was our composer, one of our two composers on the series.

我们甚至邀请了社区的涂鸦艺术家来为场景进行涂鸦，使其感觉真实。

We even brought in graffiti artists from the neighborhood to kind of tag the set and make that feel authentic.

所以我认为我在剧集中感到自豪的是，确保社区成员在剧中透明地拥有发言权。

So I think what I'm proud of in the series is making sure that members of the community had a voice within the series transparently.

我真心希望这部剧能在费城拍摄。

I absolutely wish it had been shot in Philadelphia.

很多因素是预算决定的，超出了我的权限范围。

A lot of that was a budget decision that was kind of above my pay grade.

我认为在肯辛顿拍摄会因为各种原因变得复杂，但我仍然希望有朝一日能在费城这座城市拍摄。

And I think it would have been complex for various reasons to shoot in in Kensington, but the city of Philadelphia is still a place that I I hope to shoot someday.

那我们来谈谈《森林之神》吧。

So let's talk about the god of the woods.

这是你最近的小说，大热畅销书，即将改编成电视剧。

That's your most recent novel, which was a big bestseller and is gonna be a TV series.

是的。

Yeah.

这同样是一部悬疑小说，但背景与《长亮河》截然不同，《长亮河》设定在一个挣扎中的城市社区。

It's also a mystery, but it couldn't be a more different setting than Long Bright River, which is in this struggling urban neighborhood.

这部小说设定在阿迪朗达克山脉，纽约州北部的群山之中。

This is set in the Adirondacks, these mountains in Upstate New York.

人们可能不像对落基山脉或佛蒙特州的绿山那样熟悉阿迪朗达克山脉。

People may not be as familiar with the Adirondacks as they might in some other other mountain, like, you know, the Rockies or the Green Mountains in in Vermont.

我去过那里几次。

There I've I've been there a couple of times.

那里更原始，开发程度更低，也没那么受欢迎。

Kinda wilder, less developed, less popular.

给我们讲讲它，以及是什么让你对它产生兴趣，把它作为小说的背景。

Tell us about it and what inspired you about them as a setting for a novel.

是的。

Yeah.

阿迪朗达克山脉位于纽约州北部，是一片广阔的保护区。

The Adirondacks are a mountain range in Upstate New York, and it's really a huge swath of protected land.

阿迪朗达克公园成立于19世纪90年代，我的家族——实际上是我母亲的祖先——就来自阿迪朗达克地区。

The Adirondack Park was formed in the 1890s and my family, actually my mother's ancestors come from the Adirondacks.

它在19世纪成为富人的夏日度假胜地，许多富裕的美国家族在那时‘发现’了这里，并建造了被称为‘大营地’的宏伟庄园。

It became a kind of summer playground for the wealthy and a lot of wealthy dynastic American families, quote unquote, discovered it in the 1800s and built these enormous compounds that they called Great Camps.

因此，《森林之神》围绕着其中一个大营地展开。

And so the God of the Woods centers on one of these great camps.

这是虚构的，故事中的家族也是虚构的。

It's fictional, and the family in question is fictional.

就在大营地下方的山坡上，有一个该家族创办的夏令营，他们的13岁女儿正是在那里失踪的。

And just down the hill from the Great Camp is a summer camp that the family also founded from which their own 13 year old daughter goes missing.

这就是这本书的基本设定。

So that's sort of the setup of the book.

对。

Right.

这个夏令营有趣的地方在于，虽然它是为孩子办的，但并不仅仅是游泳、篝火和排球。

And the interesting thing about this camp is is that it's it's for kids, but it's not just, you know, swimming and campfires and volleyball.

我的意思是，孩子们会接受生存训练。

I mean, they get survival training.

他们学习如何制作长矛捕鱼、设置陷阱捕捉小动物、剥皮并烹煮它们。

They learn how to, you know, make spears for catching fish and trap small animals and skin them and cook them.

我想，这个营地的主人——这个富裕家庭，他们管理着这片土地保护区——自认为是真正的户外人士，他们希望保留这种文化或这些技能。

And I guess the idea is that the owners of the camp, which are this wealthy family that kind of run this land preserve, see themselves as real outdoors people, and they wanna preserve what that culture or those skills?

是的。

Yeah.

他们确实如此。

They do.

他们有一种观念，认为自己是非常擅长户外生存的人，但他们非常富有，而且长期以来一直受到保护，免受批评。

They they have this notion that they are very skillful outdoors people, but they are quite wealthy and they've been, I think, protected from criticism for for too long a time.

因此，他们变得相当狭隘，高估了自己在野外生存的能力。

So they've become pretty myopic and they have overestimated, let's say their ability to survive in the wilderness.

与此同时，书中一个名叫沙塔克的邻近小镇，住满了工人阶级，他们实际上必须依靠狩猎、捕鱼和设陷阱的技能来维持生计。

Meanwhile, a nearby town called Shattuck, also a fictional town in the book, is full of working class people who are actually required to use the skills of hunting and fishing and trapping for their survival.

书中的这个富裕家庭名叫范劳尔。

The wealthy family in the book, their name is the Van Laars.

他们将自己的大营地命名为‘自力更生’，取自拉尔夫·沃尔多·爱默生的同名散文。

They have named their own great camp self reliance after the Ralph Waldo Emerson essay of the same name.

附近的当地人觉得这非常可笑，因为他们喜欢指出，这栋房子其实并不是这个家族建的。

And the locals nearby think it's very funny because they like to point out that it was not actually the family that built the house.

是沙塔克镇的人们用木筏将木材运来，建造了这栋房子，而现在却在这个家族创造的奇特封建领地中为他们服务。

It was the people of Shattuck who rolled all the lumber on log roads and built the house and now serve the family in this kind of weird fiefdom that the family has created.

所以这里涉及很多阶级问题。

And so there are lot of class issues here.

我们可以这么说吗？这个富裕家庭的女儿去露营了，是的。

And can we say that the daughter of the wealthy family goes to camp and Yes.

发生了一些有趣的事情。

Interesting things happen.

对吧？

Right?

是的。

Yes.

芭芭拉·范·拉尔是这个家族中一位被误解的13岁叛逆孩子。

Barbara Van Laar is the kind of misunderstood 13 year old black sheep of her family.

她恳求去露营，但她的家人起初并不想让她去，部分原因是尽管这是一个为富人子女开设的营地，他们仍希望与营地的其他孩子保持某种界限。

She begs to go to camp, and her family at first does not want her to go partly because although it's a it's a camp for the children of the wealthy, they still wish to maintain a kind of divide between themselves and the campers.

这个家庭非常在意自己的声誉和外在形象，他们觉得把自己的女儿送到营地会显得很奇怪。

The family is very preoccupied by its own reputation and by optics, and they think it would be strange for them to send their own daughter to the camp.

但她最终如愿以偿。

But she gets her way.

她在营地度过了一整个夏天，而在那个夏天快结束时，她失踪了。

She spends a summer at the camp and toward the end of that summer, she goes missing.

因此，这部小说以她的辅导员路易丝某天早上发现芭芭拉的床空了，并感到一阵不祥的预感开篇。

And so the novel opens with her counselor, Louise, noticing one morning that Barbara's bed is empty and having a sinking sensation from, that realization.

书名《森林之神》，告诉我们这个标题的由来和它的含义。

The title, the god of the woods, tell us where it comes from, what it what it means.

这部小说的原名并不是《森林之神》。

The original title of the novel was not the god of the woods.

我写这本书的整个过程中都叫它《自力更生》，直到出版前一年左右，河岸出版社的所有人同时告诉我，他们讨厌《自力更生》这个书名——我并不怪他们。

I called it self reliance for the entire time that I was writing it up to about a year before its publication when everybody at Riverhead Books simultaneously broke the news to me that they hated the title self reliance, which I don't blame them for.

我猜他们的顾虑是，这个名字听起来会像一本自助书籍。

I think the concern was that it would sound like a a self help book.

于是，我基本上被打发回房间，去想一个不同的书名。

So I was sent back to my room basically to try to come up with a different title for the book.

通常当我这么做时，我会去查阅一些与我小说中出现的主题相关的其他出版物。

And often when I do that, go through a variety of other texts published about some of the themes that crop up in my novels.

因此，我也是这样找到了《长明河》的书名，它源自丁尼生的一首名为《食莲者》的诗。

So it's actually how I found the title of Long Bright River as well, which comes from a Tennyson poem called The Lotus Eaters.

对于《森林之神》，我非常感兴趣于有关阿迪朗达克山脉的原始资料。

With the God of the Woods, I was really interested in primary sources about the Adirondacks.

那是我一开始着手的地方。

That's the first place I started.

我曾考虑过《树皮食用者》这个书名，因为‘阿迪朗达克’这个词实际上就是这个意思。

I entertained the title, The Bark Eaters, which is what the word Adirondack actually means.

最终，我深深被‘林中恐慌’这个短语吸引，这是一种在森林中完全迷失方向的真实感受，常常导致人们，尤其是儿童在不知方向的情况下朝某个方向行走，非常危险。

Ultimately I became really, really interested in the phrase wood panic, which is the real sensation of feeling completely disoriented in the woods, which often causes people, especially children to walk in a particular direction without knowing where they're going, which is really dangerous.

在《林神》中，经常出现的一句话是：迷路时，坐下大喊。

And one of the phrases that comes up a lot in The God of the Woods is when lost, sit down and yell.

这句话被醒目地写在营地的各个建筑物上。

It's emblazoned on different buildings at the camp.

营员们刚到时就会听到这句话。

It's told to the campers when they arrive.

当我还在阿迪朗达克山长大的时候，也有人对我说过类似的话。

And a version of that phrase was also told to me when I was growing up in the Adirondacks.

另一种说法是：抱住一棵树。

Another way to say it is hug a tree.

待在原地，你就会

Stay in one place and you'll

‘林中恐慌’这个词本身就包含‘恐慌’一词，它源自希腊神话中的牧神潘，据说他是一个爱捉弄人的调皮神灵，喜欢让人在森林里迷失方向。

be Wood panic itself contains within it the word panic, which comes from the Greek god Pan, said to be a kind of playful trickster god who liked to make people feel lost in the woods.

我突然意识到，‘林神’这个说法，既可能指潘神，也可能指小说中的其他几个角色，比如范勒一家——他们或许出于误解或自我夸耀，认为自己是自己领地的神明。

And it occurred to me that the phrase the god of the woods referring to Pan could also refer to a number of other characters in the novel, including the Van Laars who I think mistakenly or in a self aggrandizing way see themselves as the gods of their domain.

我以为那就是这本书的书名。

I thought that's that's the title of the book.

就是这个没错。

That's the right one.

莉兹·摩尔最新小说《森林之神》现已推出平装本。

Liz Moore's latest novel, the god of the woods, is now available in paperback.

短暂广告后，她将回来继续深入交谈。

She'll be back to talk more after this short break.

我是戴夫·戴维斯，欢迎收听《新鲜空气》。

I'm Dave Davies, and this is Fresh Air.

本信息由《美国体育》的戴维·格林为您带来。

This message comes from Sports in America with David Green.

体育世界充满了超越比赛精彩瞬间的故事。

The world of sports is filled with stories that go beyond the highlights of the game.

敬请收听由前《早晨版》主持人戴维·格林主持的《美国体育》，这是一档由WHYY和PRX联合制作的周播节目，内容涵盖与明星运动员、教练、家长以及无数被体育改变生活的粉丝们的深度对话。

Join former morning edition host David Green for sports in America from WHYY and PRX, a weekly show featuring in-depth conversations with star athletes, coaches, parents, and the millions of fans whose lives are touched by the game.

每周在《体育美国》与大卫·格林的节目中，聆听那些让粉丝们激动起立欢呼的个人与转变时刻。

Hear about the personal and transformative moments that make fans want to stand up and cheer each week on Sports in America with David Green.

在您收听播客的任何平台收听。

Listen wherever you get your podcasts.

美国，一种新趋势正在政治左翼人群中兴起。

America, a new trend is emerging among those on the political left.

看完《J6》之后，我开始对接受一些枪械训练产生兴趣。

After seeing j six, I started getting interested in getting some firearms training.

在《周日故事》中，认识那些因担心更多社会动荡而武装自己的自由派人士、有色人种和LGBTQ群体。

On the Sunday story, meet the liberals, the people of color, and LGBTQ folks who are arming themselves because they fear more civil unrest.

立即收听NPR《Up First》播客中的《周日故事》。

Listen now to the Sunday story on the Up First podcast from NPR.

奈飞的《怪奇物语》已迎来结局，我们正在剖析最后一季中最关键的时刻。

Netflix's stranger things has reached its end, and we're unpacking the biggest moments in the final season.

我们将讨论对大结局的看法、我们的英雄们最后一次对抗邪恶势力时的遭遇，当然，还有那些糟糕的假发。

We'll talk about what we thought of the finale, what happened to our heroes when they set out to battle the forces of evil one last time, and, of course, the terrible wigs.

在NPR应用或您收听播客的任何平台收听流行文化欢乐时光。

Listen to pop culture happy hour in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

你真的很擅长写作。

You're really good at writing.

你喜欢写作吗？

Do you enjoy it?

写作是我一直享受完成的事情。

Writing is something that I always enjoy having done.

因为我有年幼的孩子，我几乎只在早上5:30到7:30之间写小说。

So because I have little kids, I write my fiction almost exclusively between the hours of 05:30 and 07:30AM.

当我没写的时候，我会感到非常不安。

I feel very unsettled when I don't do it.

事实上，戴夫，我到这里时，你问我：你从5:30起就醒着了吗？

In fact, Dave, when I arrived here, you said, have you been up since 05:30?

我说：其实没有，因为我的儿子昨晚两次把我吵醒了。

And I said, actually, no, because my son decided to wake me up twice overnight.

所以，说实话，我感觉有点不对劲。

So I'm feeling a little off, if I'm being honest.

这对我来说有点强迫症的味道。

It's a little it's a it's a bit compulsive for me.

如果我不写，有时候我会觉得一整天都不顺。

I if I don't do it, I have sometimes I feel like I have a bad day.

一周七天吗？

Seven days a week?

不是。

No.

对不起。

I'm sorry.

一周五天。

Five days a week.

好的。

Okay.

我在工作日做这件事。

I do it on weekdays.

所以周六和周日，如果你不做的时候，你没问题吗？

So Saturday and Sunday, you're okay if you

不做的时候。

don't it.

如果我不写小说，我会觉得某种程度上自己失败了，但其他工作日我确实会这样。

I'm okay if I don't do it, but but the other the weekdays that I don't write my fiction, feel like I've failed myself in some way.

它不在那儿。

It's not there.

98%的时间里，写作对我来说是一种劳作。

98% of the time writing is labor for me.

2%的时间里，通常是在一本书的开头和结尾，我会感觉像在飞翔。

2% of the time, usually at the very beginning of a book and the very end of a book, it feels like flying.

这种感觉几乎是超自然的，进入一种心流状态，文字飞快地涌现，直接从某种东西跳到我的手上，让我不停打字。

It feels like it's an it's almost a supernatural experience of being in a kind of flow state where words are arriving so quickly that they bypass my brain and go straight from something to my hands that are typing.

如果我从未体验过那2%，我可能不会成为作家，但作为作家，你所追求的正是这2%的时刻——那种真正的突破感，那种解决掉原本看似无解问题的体验。

And if I didn't ever have that 2%, I might not be a writer, but it's sort of like the 2% of the time, that's what you live for as a writer, is that feeling of true breakthrough, of solving a problem that has felt unsolvable.

这是一种馈赠。

It's a gift.

这种时刻是我创作生涯中最伟大的馈赠。

It's the great gift of my creative life is that kind of moment.

哇。

Wow.

需要坚持不懈。

Perseverance is needed.

你通常需要四年时间才能完成一本书。

It takes you about four years to finish a book typically.

我知道，从我阅读的关于你的资料中了解到，你并不依赖提纲写作。

And I know from read from reading about you that you don't work from an outline.

当你开始写一部悬疑小说时，你并不知道它会如何收尾。

You don't know when you start a mystery how it's going to end.

你是不是先创造角色，然后看他们会做什么？

You, what, you create characters and see what they do?

是的。

Yeah.

我从不提前规划。

I never I never preplan.

正如我所说，我用‘人物、地点和问题’作为给学生们的入门简写。

As I said, I know people, place, and problem is the shorthand that I use with my students going in.

我唯一做的妥协是，在写书的过程中，我会同时维护一个时间线，这样如果我提到某个日期，就会打开另一个名为《长亮河时间线》的Word文档。

The one compromise I make is as I write the book, I keep a kind of simultaneous chronology running so that if I name a date, I will open up that other Word document called Long Bright River Timeline.

比如，2006年12月20日，米奇和凯西还是孩子时去看《胡桃夹子》。

And I'll say, whatever, 12/20/2006, Mickey and Casey go to The Nutcracker as children.

这能帮助我快速查到人物的年龄，尤其当我跳跃时间线时，也能最终把握整本书的脉络。

And what that helps me to do is to very quickly have a reference for ages if I'm jumping around in time and also eventually to just kinda get a sense of the arc of the book.

在你最近的作品《森林之神》中，有一个场景，我们早期遇到的一位角色——我最同情的那位——被她信任的人身体伤害了。

There's a moment in the god of the woods, your most recent book, where one of the characters that we meet early and who I felt most sympathetic with, she is physically harmed by someone that the character trusts.

我知道你指的是哪个时刻。

Aware of the moment I'm referring to.

我不想剧透，但读到那里时我很难受，因为我非常喜欢这个角色。

I don't wanna give it away, but it it's it was painful for me to read because I liked this character so much.

嗯。

Mhmm.

写的时候，你会觉得痛苦吗？

Is it painful for you to write?

会的。

It is.

我知道你说的那段场景。

That I know the scene that you're talking about.

这听起来太残忍了。

This sounds diabolical.

作为作家，当我构思出一个对小说来说恰到好处，却会伤害到我所喜爱的角色的时刻时，我的内心会分裂成两半。

As a writer, when I come up with a moment that I know is correct for the book, but that does endanger a character I love in some way, I my mind splits in two.

我一半的脑子在想：哦，不。

And half of my mind goes, oh, no.

我得让这个角色经历这一切。

I have to put this character through this.

而另一半却在想：哦，太对了。

And the other half is like, oh, yes.

这正是这本书所需要的。

This is exactly right for this book.

这是一个充满张力的场景，推动了故事的发展。

And it's a dynamic scene and it moves the story forward.

实际上，我记得当我意识到必须写这个场景时，突然间我也明白了这部小说未来的走向，这后来帮我解决了一个问题。

And actually, I remember when I understood that I would have to write that scene, all of a sudden I understood something about the future of the novel as well, and it solved a problem for me later.

所以，尽管写起来很难，但这个场景却是一份礼物。

So it was a gift of a scene even while it was hard to write.

是的。

Yeah.