本集简介
双语字幕
仅展示文本字幕，不包含中文音频；想边听边看，请使用 Bayt 播客 App。
我宁愿尽全力做到最好的自己，而不是碌碌无为地混上十年。
I far prefer to be the absolute best I could be and get the most out of myself than just rumble along for ten years and and not do that.
我也记得当时环顾四周，看着其他训练的人，心想，他们大概只能以95%的状态抵达这场比赛或奥运会的起跑线。
I also remember looking around at other people training around me thinking, yeah, they're gonna get to the start line of this race or the Olympic games at 95%.
他们从周围人那里得到的很多建议，都是确保自己不受伤，只要能以95%的状态到达起跑线就行。
And a lot of the advice they're getting from people around them is to make sure they don't get injured and they get to the start line at 95%.
但如果我只能以95%的状态站上奥运会的起跑线，我会觉得这简直不可思议。
But I would feel it's aberration if I got to Olympic start line at 95%.
你知道，这根本不是我来这里的目的。
You know, that's that's not what I'm here to do.
我来这里，是要以99.9%的状态抵达。
I'm here to get there at 99.9%.
当然，如果我能达到101%，那也是这整个追求的一部分。
And, of course, if I go to a 101%, that's that's part of that parcel.
弗罗德诺疯狂冲刺，这是我钟爱的一个项目。
Frodeno going mental, a passion project of mine.
除了我一切开始的地方，还能从哪儿开始呢？
And where else would I start but where it all started for me?
阿利斯泰尔·布朗利，这位塑造了我们对铁人三项比赛认知的人，多次世界冠军，两届奥运会金牌得主。
Alastair Brownlee, the man who has shaped the way we look at racing triathlon, a multiple world champion, and two time Olympic gold medalist.
他以无畏的赛风和坚韧不拔的意志著称，同时拥有体育界最敏锐的头脑之一。退役后，他将这份智慧投入到慈善、商业和体育管理工作中，今天我们将听到这些内容。
Known for his fearless racing and relentless grit, he has also one of the sharpest minds in sports, which, having hung up the tri suit professionally, he's now putting to good use in his charity, business, and sporting administration work, which we'll hear about today.
热烈欢迎我的老对手阿利斯泰尔·布朗利来到节目。
Big welcome to the show to my old adversary, Alistair Brownlee.
好的，阿利斯泰尔。
Alright, Alistair.
我其实想从2022年的巴林说起，这地方真有意思。
I would actually love to start in Bahrain 2022 of all places.
我想这大概是我们第一次一起骑车，悠闲地穿越沙漠去某个地方。
I And think it's probably the first time you and I went for a casual bike ride to get somewhere through the desert.
那时候，感觉我们两个老家伙都在与伤病和时间抗争，努力跟上节奏。
And, you know, it was it felt like two old guys at that stage kind of fighting injury, fighting the time, catching up with us.
经历了这么久，我不确定我们是该在冲刺时全力以赴、互相逼到极限，还是把对方推向迎面而来的车流。
And after all this time, I wasn't sure if we go all out in a sprint and push each other to the well or if we push each other into the oncoming traffic.
你知道吗，那是特别独特的一刻，我当时就想，嘿，这家伙其实挺不错的。
You know, it was one of those moments that was really unique because I was like, gee, he's not a half bad bloke.
那是一种感觉，对你来说，即使退役了，你依然是‘杀手’的代名词。
It was was it was something where, you know, your sporting days for me, you still are the definition of a killer.
你比赛时非常凶猛。
Like, you raced fierce.
你比赛时极具攻击性。
You raced aggressive.
你对此毫不松懈。
You were relentless about it.
你知道，你常常在发令枪响之前就把对手击垮了。
And, you know, you often, I mean, killed athletes before the gun even went.
你有没有想过自己会是这样的人？
Did you ever see yourself like that?
先来个大问题。
Big question to start with.
但没错，这么多年过去了，我们不仅更老了，可能比在巴林时伤得还多。
But, yeah, it's it's been a few more years now, so even older and probably both more injury laden than we were in in Bahrain.
但没错，自从那以后，只要有机会，我们确实碰面聊过几次。
But, yeah, it's been good to to catch up a few times and when the opportunities have allowed since.
我有没有把自己看作一个杀手？
Did I see myself as a kind of a killer?
我想，没有，我其实从来没有这么想过。
I guess, no, I actually didn't.
我基本上总是脑子里有一套固定的思路：如果我这么做，最有可能赢得这场比赛的策略是什么？
I basically always would I had a a constant kind of equation running in my head as thinking, if I do this, what gives me the best possible probability of winning this race?
实际上，这个思路一开始是分两个部分的。
And, actually, that only ever started well, my I had there was two parts to that.
第一部分是：我怎样才能以最佳状态到达起跑线？
One was how can I get to the start line being the best prepared I possibly can be?
而那正是我的动力，一种非常内在的动力，让我竭尽所能。
And, really, that was my motivation, a very kind of internal motivation to do everything that I could.
我的意思是，动力、痴迷，不管你怎么称呼它。
I mean, motivation, obsession, whatever whatever you want to call it.
其次，在比赛中，我会不断思考，怎样做才能最大程度地提高获胜的可能性。
And then secondly, in the race, I'd be constantly thinking, you know, what here allows me to to have the best probability of of winning this thing.
而且，确实有很多次，我站在起跑线上时，觉得胜率只有百分之零点几。
And, yeah, there was quite a lot of times I I stood on the start line and thought that probability is, like, naught point more percent.
但你知道，如果要成功，a、b、c、d、e、f这些条件都得发生，而我会尽一切努力去促成它们。
But, you know, if it was to happen, a b c d e f would have to happen, and I'm gonna do everything I can to try and make that happen.
但话说回来，说到当一个‘杀手’，我想我确实非常冷静，有着强烈的获胜欲望。
But, yeah, you know, in terms of being a killer, yeah, I guess I was very clinical about it, an enormous desire to win.
我觉得，既然之前付出了那么多努力和汗水，我欠自己一个胜利。
I felt I I owed myself that after putting so much, hard work, I guess, and effort into it beforehand.
但总的来说，我想就是这样了。
But, yeah, I I think that was it really.
一种非常冷静、理性的方法来追求最佳表现。
A very just kinda clinical approach to to getting the best performance.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，这真的很了不起。
I mean, it's it's it's remarkable.
对吧？
Right?
因为，说实话，这往往关乎视角和你看待事物的方式，这种做法听起来确实非常有计划性，甚至回头看，这似乎正是你应该采取的方式。
Because, I mean, the thing is so often about perspective and how you look at things and this kind of, yeah, it it sounds so calculated and it almost sounds like in retrospect, that's how you'd want to do it.
我只是觉得，当我们二十多岁的时候，确实就是这样。
I just feel like, you know, when we were in our twenties, that was yeah.
这种处理方式看起来如此成熟。
It it it seems like such a mature approach to go about it.
是的。
Yeah.
也许吧。
Maybe.
而且现在回过头来看，可能带着一点玫瑰色滤镜，毕竟有了 hindsight 和反思之后。
And there's probably an element of looking back on it with rose rose tinted glasses now, isn't there, with the benefit of hindsight and and, reflection.
但没错，这确实是我当时的做法。
But, yeah, that that very much was my approach.
你知道的。
You know?
我今天需要做些什么，才能从中获得最好的结果？
What do I need to do today to to get the best possible result out of it?
而且，说起来挺有趣的。
And, yeah, it was funny.
在我开始之前，那些关于击败别人的事，我的意思是，我根本没怎么想过，或者几乎从没想过。
The things around beating people before I even started, I mean I mean, I I never even really thought about that, or I very, very rarely thought about that.
你知道，只有少数几次。
You know, there was only a few occasions.
我记得在伦敦奥运会前的一场比赛，是在基茨布尔，我当时想着：我要一直冲到终点线。
Like, I remember one race before the Olympics in in London, in Kittsball and thinking, I'm gonna run this to the line.
所以，大家看到这个成绩，都觉得我们根本不可能赢他。
So, you know, everyone looks at this result and thinks, basically, we've got no chance of beating him.
但除此之外，我实际上根本没去计算任何东西。
But apart from that, I actually didn't calculate anything at all.
而且，我一些朋友说，是的。
And, you know, some other kind of friends of mine said, yeah.
你当时在这件事里表现得特别强势，但其实我从来都不是有意要这样的。
You were quite you know, you're such an overbearing character in this and that, and I never actually that was kind of never really that in, intentional.
我觉得这类事情会逐渐积累势头，对吧？
And I think it's those kind of things gain momentum, don't they?
而且，有些故事传出来后，就像传话游戏一样。
And, you know, the some stories come out that when store it's like Chinese whispers.
一个故事接着一个故事，层层叠加。
A story builds on a story that builds on a story.
实际上，事情也发生过另一个极端。
It's happened to the other extreme as well, actually.
现在我变成了完全的好好先生极端。
Now I've got the, like, complete good guy extreme.
有一个荒谬的本地故事说，我曾在跑步比赛中停下来，去救一只羊之类的。
There's this ridiculous local story that apparently I stopped during a running race to, like, rescue a sheep or something.
但任何了解我的人都知道，第一，我绝不会停下来；第二，更不可能是为了去救一只羊。
And it's like no chance with anyone who ever knows me knows that, a, I'd never stop, and b, definitely not to, like, rescue a sheep.
所以，是的，我认为这种夸大其词和‘传话游戏’是双向的。
So, yeah, I think it probably the exaggeration and, yeah, Chinese whispers go both ways.
那是你朋友们开玩笑说Johnny是羊的那只传说中的羊吗？
Is that the proverbial sheep of your mates calling Johnny a sheep?
我觉得这可能是唯一一次
I think it's the only
你停下来过。
time you've ever stopped anyway.
没错。
Exactly.
对。
Yeah.
不。
No.
这是一只毛茸茸的羊。
This was a sheep of the woolly variety.
我觉得你越是刻意规划这类事情，就越显得不真实。
I think I think the more you plan that sort of stuff, the the less it comes across as genuine.
对吧？
Right?
那种情况下，往往是自然而然发生的，你完全沉浸在状态里，根本注意不到这类事情。
It is kind of just a natural flow where you just you're in the zone, and you don't even see those kind of things.
它就是自然而然地发生了。
It just it just flows along.
总之，对我来说，你能作为《Frodeno发疯了》——这次是《Brownlee发疯了》——的第一位嘉宾，我感到非常荣幸。
Anyways, for me, it is a huge pleasure to have you on as the first guest of Frodeno going mental, in this case, Brownlee going mental.
所以，我打算先提出一个标志性问题。
And so we have a I'm gonna introduce a signature question just to start.
你上一次彻底发疯是什么时候？
When is the last time you went absolutely mental?
无论是在运动、事业，还是私人生活中，有没有哪一刻你愿意分享？
In any sense, sports, business, in your private life, what's what's a moment you would be willing to share?
我想，是的。
I think, yeah.
有趣的是，我发疯总是和自己把事情搞砸、搞得特别烦人有关。
Funnily enough, me going mental always relates to, like, my own frustrations of doing things really badly and really annoying.
所以，都是些让人沮丧的事情。
So it's frustrating things.
我记不清具体上一次是什么时候了，但我敢肯定，几乎肯定和自行车维修有关，就像我们都经历过的一样，我需要做点和自行车相关的事情。
I can't remember exactly what was the last time, but I can guarantee almost certainly it was about, like, something to do with bike mechanics, and I needed to get as we've all been, and I needed to do something to do with a bike.
我不知道。
I don't know.
比如换轮胎之类的。
Like, change a tire or something.
十分钟内，就是有什么地方莫名其妙就是不工作，我越来越烦躁。
And within ten minutes, and it just something wasn't working for no apparent reason, and I get more and more frustrated.
所以，大概就是类似这样的事情。
So, yeah, it would have been something along those lines.
是的。
Yeah.
我的挫败感主要来自于我缺乏做事情的能力，而且总想在短时间内完成，以免迟到。
My, my frustration primarily comes from my lack of ability to to do things and and trying to do things in a short period of time to not be late, basically.
对。
Yeah.
实际上，我对这两点都非常有共鸣。
I can very much relate to both of those things, actually.
自行车机械出问题、自行车电脑没电之类的状况，真的让我气得发疯。
The the one thing on bike mechanics not working or bike computer not being charged or something like that just drives me absolutely up the wall.
我完全能理解。
Can definitely relate.
带我们去利兹吧，你在那里组建了一个训练团体，参与创建了训练中心，打造了你多次提到的、帮助塑造了你的环境，并激发了你职业生涯的许多方面。
Take us to Leeds where you kind of built a training group and you built or were part of building a training center and building the environment that you've spoken about many times that has helped shape you and that has kind of inspired much of your career.
你是相信他人自主性的那种人，亲身经历了这种模式，还是不得不事无巨细地微观管理每一个细节，或者对你来说是两者兼有？
Were you someone that believed in the agency of others and lived through that, or did you have to, like, micromanage every angle of the situation, or was it a mixture of both for you?
是的。
Yeah.
我想，利兹的训练团体最初是这样形成的——也许用‘无组织’来形容并不准确，但更像是一种真诚、自然的方式：我们一开始只是有一群人在活动。
I I guess LEADS, to start with, came about or the training group in leads in a very kind of, maybe unorganized isn't the right way, but a kind of authentic, authentic kind of approach to, get you know, we've got a group going on to start with.
当时真的就是，我和约翰尼，还有其他几个人在23米长的泳池里游泳训练，再加上几位大学讲师，以及一些只是来凑热闹的人。
Literally, it was, a few of us swimming in a 23 meter pool, in a combination of, like, Johnny and me and a couple of other people training properly and a couple of lecturers from the university and a couple of people who just turned up for fun.
然后在接下来的几年里，一些学生和其他人因为约翰尼和我取得的成功，陆续加入我们。
And then over the space of a few years, a few students came and a few people came to join us because Johnny and me were being successful.
所以它变化得很快，从来没有人去仔细考虑过谁可以加入、谁不可以加入。
So it it changed fast, there was kind of never any oversight to kind of think about who could join and who couldn't join.
一切都是这样的感觉：哇，真棒，有人加入进来了。
It was all like, oh, this is really cool, you know, that people are joining.
而且，是的，我们至少有一个心照不宣的共识：我们完全开放。
And, yeah, we we kind of had a a a an implicit, at least, thing that we were completely open.
你知道，从训练的角度来看，我们没什么好隐瞒的。
You know, we we had nothing to hide from a training point of view.
我们所做的并没有特别之处，因为我们的理念就是：来了就努力训练，把活干好。
What what we're doing wasn't particularly special because the philosophy of just turn up and train hard and and get the work done.
只要大家这么做，不碍事，我觉得他们就很欢迎参与。
Then as long as people did that and didn't get in the way, they were kind of welcome to participate, I guess.
我真的有事无巨细地管过什么吗？
Did I really micromanage anything?
没有。
No.
绝对不是一个管理者，但当时有一个非常明确的期望，那就是如果你在那里，你就应该努力工作，尽最大努力，不要碍事。
Definitely not a definitely not a a manager, but but there was a very, I guess, explicit expectation that if you were there, you were there to work hard, ultimately do your best and and kind of not get in the way.
在很长一段时间里，我认为这种方式效果非常好。
And for a lot of time, I think that worked that worked really well.
我的意思是，当然，现在回看任何管理情境或团队情境，我如今花了一些时间研究团队和单位的变革性转变。
I mean, of course, looking back on any kind of managerial situation or a or or a team situation, and, you know, I spend a bit of my time now looking at the kind of transformational change of teams and units.
我们本可以做得更好得多。
You we could have done things a lot better.
对吧？
Right?
你知道，本可以有更好的方式来筛选合适或不合适的人选，但在一开始你永远无法预知，得先弄清楚我们到底追求什么，再稍微调整一下策略。
You know, there could have been a a better approach to gating the people who were right or or not, but you never know that at the start, working out actually, kind of what we're about and and may maybe tailoring things a bit more.
但我认为，即便如此，你还是可以说，那几年里，它或许可以说是铁人三项历史上最成功的训练环境之一，为那些年最终培养出的运动员提供了绝佳的条件。
But, I think, I mean, still, you can go back and say that, but there's a there's a, a fair point to be made that for some years there, it was, if not ever, you know, the most successful kind of training environment maybe there's ever been in triathlon for the the athletes that it ultimately produced over those years.
所以，是的，我不确定。
So, yeah, I don't know.
也许你不应该改变太多。
Maybe you shouldn't change too much.
而且很多事情的发生并不容易预测。
And and how things come about that are really not that easy to predict.
你不能简单地说，如果你改变了输入a，就一定会以积极的方式改变输出。
And really, you can't just say if you change input a, then that will in turn change the output that comes in a positive way.
所以我有时会想，你说的这种感觉像是事情自然流动，但‘聪明训练，而非拼命’已经成了人人都在说的陈词滥调，就像你周一早上醒来时会想到的那种老生常谈。
And so I do sometimes wonder, you speak that, you know, it seems like a very organic flow to things, whereas it's become one of those cliches that everybody says train smarter, not harder, is, you know, one of those, yeah, calendar kind of sayings that you wake up on a Monday morning and you think about.
但你确实像其他人从未做过的一样，突破了极限。
But you did push the envelope like no one else.
我觉得，回过头来看，正是这一点真正改变了你，也彻底改变了铁人三项这项运动。
I feel like, you know, looking back in hindsight, that was what really changed not only you, but also the sport of triathlon altogether.
我认为你可能是那种把自身极限推向最远可能程度的人。
I think you're probably someone who pushed their absolute ceiling to, you know, the furthest possible degrees.
你觉得，事后看来，这是否有时让你飞得离太阳太近了？
And do you think, in hindsight, maybe that is something that at times made you fly a little bit too close to the sun?
说到应对伤病，以及你如何找到自我，据我所知，从2009年起，你一直在不断处理伤病吗？
You know, speaking of, like, dealing with injuries and and kind of finding yourself well, from my knowledge anyways, from about 2009, managing injuries constantly?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Sure.
这两件事其实是同一枚硬币的两面，不是吗？
Those two things are the same are different sides of the same coin, aren't they?
而且我确实非常清楚这种权衡。
And I was very I was actually very aware of that trade off.
我还记得，年轻时一位教练告诉我：你不能这样训练。
I remember being told by a a coach being quite young, you know, firstly, you can't train like that.
你坚持不了多久的，你得更聪明、更科学地训练，否则你知道，你并没有那么有天赋。
You'll never last very long, and you need to train smarter and better otherwise, you know, because you're not that talented.
所以，如果你想有所成就，你就得完全由我来指导。
So to get anywhere, you're gonna need to basically be coached by me.
我当时想到了两件事。
And I thought two things.
我想的第一件事是，嗯，我当时才18岁，就被这样告知。
I thought the first thing was, well, actually, you know, I'm being told this at, like, 18.
所以，显然你不会相信自己的职业生涯会很短暂，但我当时想，我不在乎。
So, obviously, you don't believe that you're gonna have a limited career, but I thought and I I don't care.
我的意思是，如果我在两年内成为尽可能最好的运动员，三年后就退役，那也很好。
I mean, if I'm the best athlete I possibly can be in two years' time and I retire in three years' time, I mean, that's great.
我宁愿成为最顶尖的自己，充分挖掘自己的潜力，也不愿平平淡淡地撑十年却一事无成。
I far I far prefer to be the absolute best I could be and get the most out of myself than just rumble along for ten years and and not do that.
所以，我心里很清楚。
So I and I and I knew it.
我还记得环顾四周，看着其他一起训练的人，心想，他们大概只能带着95%的状态站上比赛或奥运会的起跑线。
I also remember looking around at other people training around me thinking, yeah, they're gonna get to the start line of this race or the Olympic Games at 95%.
而他们周围的人给他们的很多建议，都是确保他们不受伤，只要能以95%的状态抵达起跑线就行。
And a lot of the advice they're getting from people around them is to make sure they don't get injured and they get to the start line at 95.
但如果我以95%的状态到达奥运起点，我会觉得这很异常。
But I would feel, it's aberration if I got to Olympic start line at 95%.
你知道，这并不是我来这里的目的。
You know, that's that's not what I'm here to do.
我来这里是为了以99.9%的状态抵达。
I'm here to get there at 99.9%.
当然，如果我达到了101%，那也是这一过程的一部分。
And, of course, if I go to a 101, that's that's part of that parcel.
而且，正如你所指出的，我确实有几次做到了。
And, yeah, as you you point out, I definitely did that a few times.
而且，当时我并没有冷静地想：哦，是啊。
And, yeah, I didn't sit there at the time with a cool head and think, oh, yeah.
你知道，算了。
You know, never mind.
这就是代价。
That's the trade off.
我对此感到非常沮丧，但还是克服了它，然后又重新做了一遍。
I got very frustrated by it and and worked through it and then and then did it all again.
但确实，我完全突破了极限，这可以说是一种我愿意付出的代价，最终让我达到了现在的成就，而且我也恰好在两届奥运会上状态极佳。
But, yeah, I did absolutely push the envelope, and that was a a kind of trade off, I guess, I was willing to make and got me to where it got me ultimately and with with a better look as well that I happened to be in a great shape for for two Olympic games.
是的。
Yeah.
来享受当下，而非长久停留，而你居然两者兼得。
Here for a good time, not a long time, and somehow you manage both.
但是
But
嗯，差不多吧。
Well, kind of.
对。
Yeah.
哇。
I Wow.
我本来可以的，是的。
I could Yeah.
我记得。
I remember the
持续了很长时间。
around for a long time.
是的。
Yeah.
但没错，我18岁时的计划就是参加伦敦奥运会，争取赢得金牌，然后退役，回去做学术工作，基本上就是这样。
But, yeah, yeah, literally, my plan as a 18 year old was get to the London Olympics, try and win the London London Olympics, retire, and go back and be an academic, basically.
所以，是的。
So so yeah.
我的意思是，想想看，如果你在18、19岁的时候有人跟你说，哦，是的。
I mean, think and and, you know, if if if we'd had this conversation as, yeah, an 18, 19 year old and someone said, oh, yeah.
你36岁退役，拥有漫长的职业生涯，而且在实现奥运成就很久之后，我会说：不可能。
You, you know, you retire as a 36 year old and you'd had this long career and way after you'd achieved, you know, your your successes at the Olympics, I'd be like, no way.
那真是个糟糕的主意。
That's that's a terrible idea.
我绝对不打算那样做。
I'm definitely not gonna do that.
但观点会变，不是吗？
But perspectives change, don't they?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
而且说实话，我能理解这一点，尽管我们在非常不同的层面上处理事情。
And I mean, that's it's it's something that I can relate to even though we approach approach things on a very, very different level.
你觉得，再说了，你的短距离比赛成就比我多得多，但整个系列赛的赛制，比如当世界冠军头衔这样改变时，确实要求在整个赛季中保持稳定，或许反而让你无法每次都达到绝对巅峰，因为你必须更好地管理状态。
Do you think, like, again, you had a lot more short course success than than I did, but the whole series format, right, like racing consistently over a season when they change kind of world titles like that, just demanded consistency over a season and perhaps didn't allow for you to reach that absolute peak every single time simply because you had to manage it more.
这会不会让你觉得，某种程度上是对这项运动的一种辜负？
Would is that something that to you feels like almost, you know, doing the gift a disservice?
这是否意味着，你没有在起跑线上达到最佳体能状态，从而辜负了你的身体天赋？
Is that something that's betraying your physical gift by not being as fit as you possibly can be on the start line?
是的。
Yeah.
我想从某种角度来说，你或许可以这么认为，但我们也完全同意另一点：作为运动员，尤其是那些顶尖运动员，你最终必须根据当天的实际条件来准备，比如你在长距离项目和北京奥运会上的表现。
I guess you could argue that on one sense, but you could also say, and I know we both absolutely agree with this, is that ultimately your job as an athlete and the re the guys who are really great athletes, you know, like your performances in in long distance and and in the Olympics in Beijing, I mean, you you ultimately you have to prepare for the conditions on the day.
对吧？
Right?
无论比赛是长距离、高温、寒冷、多坡、五场还是仅一场，都不重要。
And it doesn't matter whether that's a long race or a hot race or a cold race or a hilly race or it's five races or one race.
顶尖运动员都具备这种能力，我认为这在所有运动项目中都能看到——真正的高手总能在关键时刻取胜。
The best athletes, have got an ability to do that, and that's something you see across, I think, every sport and and, kind of sporting discipline that people the the real greats, have an ability to win when, you know, win when it matters ultimately.
所以，是的，你知道的，也许谁知道呢？
So, yeah, you know, maybe who knows?
我可能更倾向于每年只参加一场比赛，或者类似的情况。
I was maybe, kind of a bit more predetermined to do one race every year or whatever that might be.
也许我不是。
Maybe I wasn't.
我们不知道。
We don't know.
还有其他因素会影响，但事实是，我们不可能都在起点聚在一起。
And there's other factors that come in, but the truth of it is, you know, we can't all get together at the start.
嗯，我和你不可能在年初聚在一起说，是的。
Well, I you know, me and you can't get together at the start of the year and say, yeah.
我们只想要一场比赛，就在这一天、这个距离、这种天气条件下进行。
We only want one race that's over this distance on this day in these weather conditions.
我们不得不接受现状，对吧？
We we, you we we have to put up with what's there, don't we?
而且，是的，我的意思是，是的，这种变化在体育界已经持续很久了，不是吗？
And, yeah, I I mean, yeah, it's it goes back a long time now, doesn't it, to the change that change in the sport?
我想你可能比我看得更清楚，从2009年开始，那一年第一届世界系列赛举办，我们从单一赛事的世界冠军变成了多站系列赛。
I I guess you probably saw that change more than me from this 2009, wasn't it, the first year that the World Series happened when we went from a a one race world championship to a to a multi race series?
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
我的意思是，这是一方面。
I mean, that's that's one thing.
既然你提到了2008年奥运会，我确实得提一下，因为你之前说你在为伦敦做准备。
I do I do have to go there since you mentioned the two thousand eight Olympics because you said you were preparing for London.
你还记得奥运会第二天你对我说了什么吗？
Do you remember what you said to me, like, the day after the two thousand eight Olympics?
我不记得了。
I can't say I do.
抱歉。
Sorry.
说实话，我之所以想起这件事，是因为我刚和我最好的朋友费利克斯聊过。
And honestly, I I was only reminded of this because because I was having a chat to to my best friend Felix about it.
他问我，你还记得那个家伙吗？
And he's like, do you remember that guy?
他走过来对你说，你真走运，我那天状态不好。
He came up to you and he said, you were lucky I had a bad day.
我说，这听起来可不像是我会说的话，说实话。
I'm like, that is Doesn't sound like the kind of thing I'd say, to be fair.
我不记得了。
I don't know.
我不记得了。
I don't know.
那一定是在北京某场闭幕派对上。
It it must have been one of the closing parties somewhere in Beijing.
不管怎样，这恰恰说明了当时你是个怎样的运动员——无所畏惧，坚信自己一定能赢。
And either way, I just think it's it just speaks to the kind of racer you were at the time, like fearless and absolutely convinced you could win.
我真的特别喜欢这一点。
Like, I absolutely love it.
我现在回头看，觉得这简直是宝藏，我想把它放在那儿。
I look at it now and I'm like, gold, you know, I wanna put it there.
但很多方面来说，说来奇怪，如果我诚实地反思那个时刻，确实有一扇心理上的门被你踹开了。
But in many, many ways, like, strangely enough, if I'm very honest and I reflect on that moment, there was a mental door that you kicked in.
你就像一条电鳗，从那一刻起直接让我震住了，因为我当时在想：我真的只是运气好吗？
Like, you were almost like an electric eel that just shell shocked me from that moment on because I was like, was I really lucky?
如果我回望那段当时流露出的不安全感的话。
Like, if I look back on that insecurity that came across.
再说一遍，以现在的眼光来看，已经过去二十年了，我时常会想，这其实是一个故事套着另一个故事。
And again, like in hindsight, and it's been what, twenty years, I kind of think about it and I'm like, you know, it's a story that builds on a story.
但它确实逼迫我真正地重新塑造自己作为一名运动员。
But it really was something that just forced me to actually rebuild as an athlete.
如今，我可以感谢你，但当年，确实有什么东西在那里。
And nowadays, I can thank you for it, but back in the day, I mean, there was there there was something there.
你觉得那种态度，可能是你作为车手最强大的优势吗？无论是有意识还是无意识的？
Do you think that attitude was maybe your greatest strength as a racer, like consciously or subconsciously?
是的。
Yeah.
不。
No.
嗯，我认为那可能是一种优势，一种对事物的乐观态度，但可能不是最大的优势。
I well, I think it was probably a strength just a kind of optimism of approach to things, but probably not the greatest strength.
我的意思是，实际上，我认为这种——这可能只是我的观点，当然，你可能会有完全不同的看法。
I mean, I actually I actually think that kind of and this might be just from my perspective, and, you know, you might feel very differently about it.
但我认为，关于获胜的这种自信，在整体表现图景中所起的作用，比我们实际认为的要小得多。
But I think that kind of confidence about winning plays a much smaller part to the kind of the performance picture than we actually think.
我认为我们经常谈论它，因为它不是具体或客观的东西，所以我们无法量化它。
I think we talk about it a lot because it's something that isn't tangible, so or objective, so we can't quantify it.
而我们试图去量化它。
And we can try and quantify it.
就像任何这种主观的东西一样，你可以一直等待、讨论，却始终无法真正衡量。
And like anything that is subjective like that, you you can wait and talk about and actually never really measure.
所以你往往会过度分析并过分重视它。
So you tend to over overanalyze and overweight it.
但，是的，当我回顾那些表现良好的时候，其实99%都是身体上的因素。
But, yeah, I mean, when I reflect on times where I was racing well and and and not I mean, it was 99% physical.
而且，没错，这确实是一种自我实现的预言。
And, yeah, of course, it's a self fulfilling prophecy.
对吧？
Right?
你身体状态极佳，这会反过来影响心理状态。
You're physically in great shape, and that feeds into the the psychological situation.
但对我来说，这一切都是整体的一部分。
And but for me, that that was all that was part of the parcel.
所以，心理层面的东西几乎根本没怎么在我脑海中出现过。
And so the kind of the the the mental side of it just almost didn't even really even figure to me.
就像我说的，我经常站在起跑线上，觉得自己根本没机会赢。
You know, like I said, I stood on start lines all the time thinking I've got no chance of winning this.
所以对很多人来说，这可能看起来有点缺乏自信。
And so peep you know, to lots of people, that would be kind of an under underconfidence.
但事实上，我几乎从不考虑其他具体的选手，我觉得。
And but and it didn't even I I very, very rarely even thought about individual other people, I think.
当然，很长一段时间里，我经常和你或者哈维尔·戈麦斯比赛，但其实这些都无关紧要。
I mean, of course, a long time, I was kind of racing you a lot or racing Javier Gomez or but, actually, all that was kind of irrelevant.
我在起跑线上要么全力以赴，要么就根本不是。
It's like I was on the start line at 100% or I wasn't.
如果我不是最佳状态，我就只能想办法熬过那一天。
And if I wasn't, I was just gonna have to find a way to kind of get through that get through that day.
对我来说，这场战斗只是个人层面的：尽我所能，最好地出现在那里。
And the battle for me was just kind of personally to be on that to to be there the best I possibly could be.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得，有些运动员花在运动心理学家身上的钱，在你看来可能完全是浪费。
I I get a feeling the amount of money some athletes tend to spend on sports psychologists would kind of be a waste to you.
我猜你从来没看过，对吧？
I'm assuming you never saw one, did you?
没有。
No.
我从来没有。
I never have.
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，我读过大量关于这方面的科学内容，尤其是最近关于行为经济学及其相关领域的研究。
I I mean, I I read an awful lot about the kind of science of it and and especially kind of more recently, like the behavioural economics and around that.
我对一些行为经济学的研究非常着迷，特别是关于启发式思维以及我们如何做决策，我特别好奇在比赛中是什么让我们做出正确的决定。
And I've got a real fascination of some of that behavioural economics work and looking at heuristics and how we approach decision making particularly, and I was fascinated about what made us make good decisions, in in races.
在信息不完整且时间紧迫的情况下，你如何做出出色的决策？
How do you make great decisions with incomplete information under time pressure?
但话说回来，如果只是讨论这个根本问题——与他人交谈能否为你带来超越自身努力的自信？
But, yeah, in terms of I think for me, that fun if we're just talking about that fundamental question of can having a conversation with someone give you some form of confidence over and above what you can get from doing the work?
对我来说，答案是坚决的否定。
For for me, the answer is a resounding no.
不仅如此，我其实想，等等。
And more than that, actually, I I I thought, well, wait a minute.
如果有人通过对话给了我信心，那简直就是虚假的信心。
If someone gives me confidence from a conversation, I mean, that's like fake confidence.
真正的信心来自于走出去做事，并对自己所做的工作感到满意。
Real confidence comes from going out and doing the work and being happy with the work I've done.
我不想要那种虚假的信心。
And I I don't want kind of a a fake confidence.
我知道从很多方面来看，这种看法很肤浅，但这就是我的看法。
So was I know that's a very, like, shallow approach to it in lots of ways, but, yeah, that's how I looked at it.
我可能会说，这正是自信与信念之间的区别，对吧？
I'd probably argue that's the difference between self confidence and self belief, right?
你建立的是真正的信念，而不是自信。
You created a true self belief rather than a self confidence.
你读过我的书。
You've been reading my book.
我写了一整章讲这个。
I've got a whole chapter on that.
当然。
Absolutely.
我一定会买你的书。
I am am gonna get your book.
买你的书。
Get get your book.
我真的很喜欢你的书，说实话。
I I loved your book, honestly.
说实话，我得去查一下书里提到的几种运动项目。
It was it was something I had to Google a few of the sports, if I'm very honest.
书里提到的运动项目带点英联邦国家的特色。
It's a little bit Commonwealth based sports.
如果你不住在英联邦国家，你就得想办法适应它。
And if you don't live in Commonwealth countries, you gotta you gotta figure your way around it.
作为一名足球运动员，我提到过迈克尔·欧文，是的。
Well, as a footballer, I said that, Michael Owen, who yeah.
书里有一段讲他，他有一个关于自信和信念的精彩比喻，很不错。
He there's a bit on him that he he he has this really lovely analogy of self confidence and self belief, which is good.
是的。
Yeah.
而且确实有很多内容。
And and I mean, there's there's a lot there.
但在你研究决策科学的过程中，你的结论是什么？
But did you in in all of your studying of the science of decision making, what's your conclusion?
你得出了什么结论？
What did you come to?
比如，面对不完整信息时，做出良好决策的科学依据是什么？比如在比赛中？
Like, what is the science behind good decision making with incomplete information, like, in a race?
我的意思是，在时间和信息都不充分的情况下做出良好决策，最终你必须依赖一种类似心理模型库的东西，而这些模型来源于两方面：一是过往经验，二是你对这些情况可能如何发展的想象，有些人称之为可视化。
I mean, I I think good decision making under time pressure and incomplete information like that, ultimately, you've gotta rely on kind of mental models in a library as it were, And they come from two things, I think, a, past experience, and and b, kind of your imagination of what those things could look like that some people might call visualization.
但你必须能够调用或假设这些模型，当你需要的时候，当时机成熟的时候，你就能用上。
But and you have to be able to draw on those or assume those you get to those when, you know, when when when you need it, when the time's right.
所以，我认为拥有足够多的这些模型，并且知道如何尽可能快地调用它们，这大概就是关键所在。
And so, yeah, I think having having enough of those models and knowing how to how to get to them as quickly as possible, I think, is where that probably comes from.
而且你得明白，如果把决策分为有意识和潜意识两个层面，我认为在运动中，你必须非常擅长那种潜意识层面的决策。
And it has to be you know, it's a super if you kind of think of the two levels of conscious and subconscious decision making, know, I think fundamentally in sport, it probably you have to be very good at that kind of subconscious bit.
对吧？
Right?
因为你知道，你处于压力之下。
Because, you know, you're you're under pressure.
你很疲惫。
You're tired.
你大部分时候的认知功能可能都达不到理想状态。
You're you're probably not cognitively functioning as well as you'd like most of the time.
是的。
Yeah.
所以我认为，确实必须如此。
So so I think, yeah, it has to be that.
并不是说我自己一定是个出色的决策者，或者每次都做对了，但我确实非常感兴趣。
Not to say I was a good decision maker necessarily or got everything right, but I had a real interest
有一个
There's a
理由认为
case to
你确实做到了。
be made that you did.
并不是总是如此。
Well, not all the time.
当然，你不可能每次都对。
Yeah, of course, you're gonna get it right all the time.
但我认为你大多数时候都做对了。
But I think you got it right more often than not.
关于你的书《坚持不懈》，我强烈推荐给所有还没读过的人，这本堪称运动员的圣经，讲述了他们对待事物的方式，以及各种截然不同的方法。
To your book then, Relentless, highly recommended for anyone that hasn't yet read it, bit of a sports bible on athletes and the way they approach it and and very different approaches.
有没有哪位在世或已故的人，你希望能在书中收录却没能加入的？
Is there anyone living or dead that you wish you could have had in that book that wasn't in there?
我的意思是，我当然有一长串想接触的人，但他们要么不愿意和我交谈，要么我时间不够了。
I I mean, of course, I had a a list of all kinds of people that I tried to get to, and either they didn't wanna speak to me or I ran out of time.
而且，是的，我觉得有两点。
And, yeah, I think I so, yeah, two things.
第一点是我其实很希望花时间与一些人相处。
First thing is I would have liked to have done actually spent time with people.
真正特别的时刻，是我能和这些人一起做事的时候，我真的很珍惜这些经历。
Like like, the really special stuff was when I I got to spend time doing things with people, and I've I've got to really kind of appreciate that.
所以，罗尼·奥沙利文，你或你的听众可能不太熟悉这项运动，但那是斯诺克。
So, Ronnie O'Sullivan's, that might be a sport you or your listeners don't know about, but it's snooker.
是的，我去过他家，他妈妈给他做了晚饭，我们坐在那儿聊天。
And, yeah, yeah, I went to his house, and his mom cooked his dinner, and we sat there and chatted over.
像这样的事情真的很特别，我认为这让我对他和他的故事、叙事有了更深入的理解和更深刻的视角。
And he you know, things like that were really special, and I I think it gave me a much better understanding of him and the the story, the narrative, kind of a a deeper perspective.
所以，对于更多的人，我希望有更多这样的经历。
So more of that even with the people.
你知道，我采访过基利安·乔尔内，但要是能和他一起去跑步，肯定更好，那样可以聊聊他的一些决策过程。
You know, I I interviewed Kilian Jornay, and it would have been, you know, way better to be going for a run with him somewhere, I'm sure, and, you know, talking through some of that that decision making.
比如，他对风险有一段非常精彩的看法，如果当时我们真的在山上边走边聊，那会更有意义。
He's got a brilliant bit about risk, for example, you know, if we're actually talking about that on a mountain somewhere.
我觉得那样会让内容更有深度。
I think that would have given it much more depth.
还有更多的人，是的，你提到希望内容更全面，我也非常希望能采访更多人。
And more people, yeah, your your point about it being more rounded, I would have loved that to to be able to speak to more people.
你知道，我真希望能去非洲，和一些著名的跑步运动员待一段时间，比如海勒·加布里埃拉·西拉西，甚至更近期的一些人。
You know, I would have spent loved to spend some time, in Africa with, some of the famous runners, people like Haile Gabriela Szilasi, and even even more recent ones.
我本想去了解更广泛的其他运动，比如自由潜水之类的，还有其他一些疯狂的项目。
I would like to have gone to a breadth of other sports, you know, from, kind of free divers, for example, and and other crazy things.
所以，是的，我认为这种广度和多样性很重要。
So, yeah, I think that kind of breadth and diversity.
因为当时我真正想回答的问题是：我所思考的这些内容，以及你也会应用到铁人三项和训练中的那些东西，究竟有多少能被借鉴？
Because what what the question I was really trying to answer was, how much of this stuff that I've thought about and, you know, that you will also apply to triathlon and training.
这些经验如何跨领域迁移到其他运动中？
How does that cross over into other disciplines?
能借鉴多少？又不能借鉴多少？
How much or how much not?
而且，我能从中学到些什么吗？
And, you know, can I learn anything from that?
它们之间到底有多大的不同？
And and how how different is it?
所以，是的，我认为要回答这个问题，你必须去接触尽可能多不同的人。
And so, yeah, I think you've gotta go to as many different people as you can to answer that.
是的。
Yeah.
当然。
Absolutely.
我的想法有五六个方向，但我想先就你刚才那个问题问问你。
I mean, there's five or six different ways I wanna go with this, but I'll first ask you on that question.
你小时候有崇拜的偶像吗？
Did you ever have a role model?
你提到了海勒·格布雷西拉西耶。
Like, you you mentioned Haile Gebrasilassi.
对我来说，他就是终极榜样。
For me, he was just he was the ultimate.
你知道，自从那以来已经二十年了，他是田径项目5000米和10000米的世界纪录保持者，也是奥运会金牌得主。
You know, he was a for those since it's been, what, twenty years, he was a track and field, five, ten k world record holder, Olympic gold medalist.
你成长过程中有偶像吗？还是说这根本不在你激励自己的方式里？
Did you ever have a role model growing up, or was it really not part of your repertoire of, yeah, motivations?
展开剩余字幕（还有 363 条）
我觉得确实有，而且我喜欢看奥运会。
I think it kinda did, but and I, you know, I loved watching the Olympics.
我记得从亚特兰大奥运会开始就一直在看奥运会。
You know, I remember watching the Olympics as far back as Atlanta.
我喜欢看环法自行车赛，那时正好是兰斯·阿姆斯特朗的时代。
I love watching the Tour de France, and we were right in the middle of the the Lance Armstrong era.
看到他统治赛场，是我对所有奥运项目最早期的体育记忆之一。
And seeing him dominate that was, you know, an early sporting memory for me, across all Olympic sports.
但真正让我印象深刻的是，那些体育人物似乎离我所能达到的成就太遥远了。
But I think what really stood out to me, it almost felt, those kind of sporting people were were so far away from anything that I would ever achieve.
这几乎显得无关紧要。
It was almost irrelevant.
所以我觉得，偶像或榜样这种说法其实不太准确。
So I think role models, idols is kind of the wrong thing.
我只是在看的时候感到惊叹，觉得特别精彩。
It was like, yeah, I I was kind of watching that amazed by it, and it was super entertaining.
我记得，即使在17岁的时候，我就经常提到这一点。
And I, you know, I remember even as a 17 year old, I talk about this a lot.
如果有人之前听过，我先道歉，但2005年伦敦赢得奥运会主办权时，我听说了这件事。
I'm sorry if everyone anyone heard this before, but, you know, in 2005, London won the bid to host the Olympics, and I got told about it.
我觉得这太酷了，但跟我没关系，因为我永远不可能达到那个水平。
And I thought that's super cool, but it's irrelevant to me because I'll never be good enough to be there.
我迫不及待想去看奥运会。
Can't wait to go and watch the Olympics.
是的。
Yeah.
所以，真正成为我榜样的人，都是离我更近的人。
And, so at people who were role models were people much closer to me.
比如，我一起游泳的那个人，每天激励着我；还有学校里比我年长、带我跑步、会跟我比赛爬坡的家伙。
It was, you know, the a a guy that I I swam with who pushed me day in, day out, someone who I I ran with at school who was older than me and took me out running and, you know, would race me up some hills.
所以，那些和我有真实联系的人，我不仅能直接仰望，还能直接与之竞争——哪怕只是在游泳训练中，或是在泥泞的越野跑道上。
And so and so people that had a, you know, a real kind of I had a relationship, but also, yeah, I could kinda directly look up to and directly then, compete with and and, I guess, try and be even if it was just in the middle of a swim set or round a muddy cross country field.
我认为正是这些人产生了影响。
That that was I think they're the people that had an impact.
是的。
Yeah.
因为你的父母都是医生，对吧？
Because because both your parents are doctors.
对吧？
Right?
就像你以前提到过的，你甚至一度去过剑桥，你原本有一条不同的道路在等着你。
Like, you know, you know, you've mentioned in your past, you've you even went to Cambridge for a while, like, you had a different path laid out for you.
你之前说过，你可能还会回到学术界，这可不像灰姑娘式的拳击故事。
You said earlier, you know, you're probably gonna go back to being an academic, and it's hardly like the Cinderella boxing story.
如果我不做这个，我可能就得流落街头了。
You know, if I wouldn't do this, I'd be on the streets.
那你认为是什么驱使了你呢？
Like, what do you think it was then that drove you?
你知道，从2005年想着你可能参加2012年奥运会，到后来三年后又短暂领导了北京奥运会。
You know, from 2005 to thinking you may be in 2012 at the Olympics to then three years later leading the Beijing Olympics for a while.
我当时就想，等等。
And I was like I was like, wait.
这人到底是从哪儿冒出来的？
Where is this guy coming from?
然后你突然在铁人三项界引爆了话题，几乎在那段时间里，你输掉一场比赛的新闻比赢比赛还要轰动。
To then kind of setting the triathlon world on fire and being pretty much you know, it was it was bigger news for a while there that when you lost a race than than when you won one.
你觉得是什么促使你做出这样的转变？
What do you think it was that drove you to make that change?
我觉得这很有趣，不是吗？
I think it's fascinating, isn't it?
我觉得关于动力这件事，我们总是过于简化了。
I think the whole thing about drive, I think we oversimplify it.
你知道吗？
You know?
很多时候，我觉得这其实很容易，因为当你在播客或媒体上被问到这个问题时，你很容易想象出几种回答，而媒体常报道的是，你在16岁时经历了一个决定性的时刻，这确实是个很棒的故事。
Quite often, I think it's it's really easy because quite often when you get asked this question on a podcast or in the media, you know, you can imagine giving a few answers, and this thing that the media reports on is, you know, had this seminal moment as a 16 year old, and that's such a cool story.
但真正不太酷的故事其实是，嗯，我可能在对的时间遇到了一位老师，或者受到启发，或者恰好住在适合去练自行车的地方，又或者在对的时机接触到了铁人三项。
And what isn't a cool story is actually, yeah, I, you know, might have met a teacher at the right time or inspired me, or I happened to live in the right place to go do this cycling thing or I came across triathlon at the right moment.
你知道，有太多因素了。
You know, so many factors.
所以我认为，归根结底，各个层面的动机都是极其多因素的。
And so I think, ultimately, motivation at every level is is really, really multifactorial.
甚至在一次训练过程中，你都可能被多种因素激励着。
And even in the space of a a single session, you can be motivated by a bunch of factors.
你知道吗？
You know?
你甚至可能只是为了社交因素，才勉强走到泳池边。
You can stand on the side of to get to the pool even, can be motivated by whatever, like, the social factor.
但当你站在泳池边，准备跳下去时——那可是我们每天最难受的时刻。
And then you stand on the side of the pool and then to dive in, which is the worst bit of all our days.
你可能因为之后要吃早餐而受到激励。
You might be motivated by I don't know, you have breakfast you're gonna have afterwards.
然后，在训练中间，你可能会因为和旁边的人比赛而受到激励。
And then, you know, during the middle of a set, you might be motivated by competition racing the person next to you.
再过一会儿，你可能会因为即将到来的赛事而受到激励，这才是真正深层的驱动力。
And you then a little bit later, you might be motivated by, yeah, that event that's coming up, and that's the really kinda deep drive.
所以，这些驱动你的因素之间有着非常有趣的相互关联，但我们却总是只关注那些 flashy 的大事件，频繁谈论它们。
And and so it's like the really interesting kind of interrelated, sphere of all those factors that drive you on, but we we go to, like, the big flashy one and talk about it a lot, I think.
嗯，这大概就是我的亲身经历。
Well, that well, that's kind of my experience of it.
但事实上，我在不同的日子、不同的时刻，因为不同的原因而受到不同的激励。
But in truth, yeah, I was motivated by different things at different times on different days for different reasons.
大部分时候，我想，是源于一种内在的热爱或着迷，或者说两者兼有——那就是我想做的事，以及尽我所能去挑战自己。
Most of it, yeah, was, I guess, an intrinsic love of or obsession, kind of the combination of the two of so what I wanted to do and push myself as hard as I could.
但在不同阶段，我纯粹只是为了打败约翰尼，或者为了在下一场比赛中占据有利位置。
And but at different times, yeah, literally just trying to beat Johnny or trying to be in the right place for that for that next race.
但确实，推动我成为运动员的并没有什么坚实宏大的基础，只是因为我真的很喜欢做这件事，并且想把它做好。
But, yeah, there was no kind of big solid foundation to that really that that drove me to be an athlete apart from it's it's something that I I love doing and wanted to be good at.
是的。
Yeah.
我不同意，因为我觉得这实际上很有趣。
I I would disagree because I think it is actually interesting.
我认为确实是这样。
I do think it's yeah.
也许它听起来不够酷，也许它不是那种让你惊呼‘天啊’的瞬间。
Maybe it doesn't sound sexy and maybe it's not the one moment where you're like, oh my god.
这是改变我人生的美国故事。
This is the American story that changed my life.
但正是它让这一切变得真实可感。
But it's what actually makes it relatable.
对吧？
Right?
因为，我的意思是，归根结底，这只不过是一场由日复一日、年复一年的积累所堆砌出来的表现，而不是来自外部的某种东西突然降临到你身上。
Because, I mean, in the end, it's just a performance that's stacked on days and days and years that that kind of comes together rather than something external that comes to you.
这就是为什么我觉得这真的非常有趣。
And that's why I think it's it's it's really fascinating.
不过，你没有发现这一点吗？
Did you not find that, though?
我认为我的观点发生了变化。
I think and my my perspective changed.
如果十五年前你问我这个问题，我会说不会。
I think if you'd asked me this question fifteen years ago, I would have said, no.
要完成所有这些工作，你必须有一个坚实、真诚、内在的驱动力。
You have to be to do all that work, it has to be, you know, a solid, genuine, intrinsic motivator.
但事实上，我的想法改变了。
But, actually, I I I changed.
人们确实有外在的、非常外在的动机，但我惊讶地发现，那些仅仅被我们称之为肤浅的外在成功、金钱、名望所驱动的人，竟然在这些方面找到了惊人的力量。
People did have extrinsic really kind of extrinsic motivators, but I was amazed that people who were just motivated by things that we would say were shallow and extrinsic success, money, fame actually found incredible power in those two.
而且在某些时候，它可能激励着我们所有人。
And and it probably motivates us all at some point.
我只是觉得这是一个非常有趣的问题，也反映了我们之间的巨大差异。
I just think it's such an interesting question and speaks to how different we are as well.
我的意思是，如果你要持续竞争二十年，那么在某些阶段你必须做出改变。
Well, I mean, if you're trying to race over two decades, like, you have to change things up at some stages.
你不可能一直保持同样的动力。
You can't maintain that same kind of drive.
对我而言，刚开始的时候，我出身贫寒，最初想要的只是一辆好车，只是为了改善自己的经济状况。
And for me, definitely, like, when I started, I came from from humble beginnings and, you know, what I was looking for was a fancy car in the beginning, know, just to kind of change my stars financially.
但后来我逐渐意识到，那些东西转瞬即逝，从来都不是长久之计。
And then eventually kind of came to a realization that that's, you know, it's it's very fleeting and it's it's something that ever was.
你在职业生涯中曾经感到满足过吗？
Did you ever reach did you ever reach satisfaction during your career?
是的。
Yes.
这是个好问题，因为我认为这真正定义了我们每天真正需要做的事情。
That's a good question because I I think that's really the definition of all we really need to do every day.
但答案是，是的。
But, I mean, the answer is, yeah.
但我实际上觉得，满足感最强烈的时候，恰恰是在日常普通的训练中，这很奇怪。
I but I actually think satisfaction came to be most in the middle of just ordinary training, strangely enough.
每天晚上睡觉时，我都有极大的满足感，我是这样看待的。
I had immense satisfaction from going to bed every night, and this is how I looked at it.
就像问自己：今天我是否已经尽了全力，让自己成为最好的运动员？
It's like, have I gone to bed tonight knowing that I've done all I can today to make myself the best athlete I
如果是，我就能安心入睡，感到快乐，然后起床再重新开始。
can be, and then I can kinda go to bed happy and have a
好的睡眠，然后起床，再次重复这一切。
good night sleep and get up and do it all over again.
我认为，作为一名职业运动员是非常艰难的。
And I think, being a professional athlete is is super hard.
你训练得非常刻苦。
You're training really hard.
你总是感到疲惫。
You're tired all the time.
你总是要应对潜在的伤病和类似的压力。
You're always dealing with potential injuries and stresses like that.
但这也与生活中几乎所有其他事情都不同，它极其专注，你可以如此自私，牺牲一切，干脆说：不干了。
But it's also different to almost everything else in life that it's incredibly single focused, and you can be so selfish and to the expense of everything else and just say, not doing that.
不干了。
Not doing that.
我只专注于一件事。
I'm singly focused.
而且我认为，作为人类，我们其实渴望单一的专注。
And and I think as humans, actually, we kind of want single focus.
你知道，面对生活中各种不同的焦点和事务，我认为我们——或者我肯定如此，但我觉得大多数人也一样——都觉得这很困难，因为你根本不知道该如何分配自己的精力和努力。
You know, the the dealing with different focus and things going on in life, I think we find or I certainly find, but I think most people are the same, is kind of tough because you never know really how to how to divvy up your energy and your efforts.
所以我真的觉得我享受了那段时光。
So I really I think I enjoyed that.
那实际上是我最满足的时候。
That was actually when I was at my most content.
其中一些确实和比赛有关，比如奥运会后几天，但我总是很快就能放下。
And, yeah, some of it was racing related, you know, for a few days after after the Olympics or something, but I always moved on quite quickly after that.
实际上，我更享受训练和这个过程，我觉得是这样。
And, actually, just I enjoyed I enjoyed the training and the process more than anything, I think.
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是我希望早点意识到的事情，因为你知道，2008年差不多是你奥运生涯的开端。
I think that is is something I I wish I'd realized earlier because, you know, when we got, like, 2008 was sort of the beginning of your career on the Olympic side.
而对我来说，那才是巅峰。
And for me, it was like the pinnacle.
我达到了自己的梦想，却没意识到，因为我太注重外在目标了，而外在目标是非常有限的。
Like, I'd reached my dream and didn't realize because I was so externally focused that if you have an external goal, it's very finite.
就像通过实现梦想来粉碎它一样。
Like, kind of crush that dream by achieving it.
我觉得你很早就掌握了追求卓越这种无限游戏。
And I feel like you mastered the infinite game of, you know, the pursuit of excellence much, much earlier.
这会不会是你和我之间的主要区别呢？
Is that what you would say would probably be the difference between you and I?
我的意思是，参加第二届奥运会，并在如此长的时间内保持这种竞技上的统治力。
I mean, reaching a reaching a second Olympics and just maintaining that dominance over over such a long time athletically.
你觉得这会是什么样的关键差异呢？
Is that you know, what do you think would be a differentiating factor there?
是的。
Yeah.
我不知道。
I don't I don't know.
我觉得如果你作为一名运动员向前看一点，我很幸运，而且我认为不可能停下来坐在那里想，是的。
I I think if you fast forward a little bit as an athlete, I mean, it's the I'm very lucky athlete, and I don't think it's actually possible to to stop and sit there and think, yeah.
我一切都做对了。
I've done everything right.
我已经实现了所有我想要达成的目标，我对自己的现状感到满足，尽管这听起来有些矛盾。
I've achieved everything I possibly wanted to, and I'm happy with my lot because that's a contradictory statement.
如果你在某方面非常出色，你总会想追求更多，而你永远不可能实现所有你想要的目标。
If you're very good at stuff, you always want to achieve more, and you're never gonna achieve everything you wanted to achieve.
所以必须找到某种方式去调和这种矛盾，让圆圈变得方正。
So there has to be some level of kind of squaring off that oh, squaring off that circle.
我确实很早就意识到，我投入了大量努力，不知为何，从一开始我就享受这个过程。
I do I think I relatively early on did realize I'm putting in and for some reason, I did just enjoy the process right from the start.
我喜欢努力工作。
I enjoyed working hard.
我喜欢我的日常安排。
I I enjoyed my routine.
我喜欢不断追求进步。
I enjoyed trying to get better.
我喜欢尝试和创新，多做训练，或者尝试这个新方法、那个新方法。
I enjoyed experimenting and innovating, trying to do more training or trying the new this or new that.
但我在某个时刻意识到，还不太确定是什么时候，当时还在领奖台上，想着，是的，我为这一切付出的努力，此刻这三分钟的领奖时刻，绝对不值得。
But I did realize at some point, I don't entirely know when still on the podium somewhere just thinking, yeah, all that work I put into this, this moment, this three minutes in the podium is definitely not worth it.
所以，一定还有比这更重要的东西。
So, and there has to be there has to be more to it than this.
因此，那也是其中一部分原因。
And so kind of that and that was definitely part of it as well.
但我认为，这种喜爱的大部分来源其实是在那之前，纯粹享受这个过程本身。
But I I I think the the majority of that pro of that enjoyment came before then of all of actually just enjoying the process.
我不知道为什么会这样。
And I've got no idea why.
我只是就是喜欢。
I just I just did.
是的。
Yeah.
你看过高尔夫球手斯科蒂·谢弗勒的那场采访吗？
Did you see that interview that Scottie Scheffler gave, the golfer?
是的。
Yeah.
他就是那种，嗯，是的。
Who is kinda like, yeah.
这很棒。
It's great.
然后持续了一分钟，接着就变成，好吧。
And then it's for a minute, and then it's like, okay.
晚饭吃什么？
What's for dinner?
在某种程度上，这真的让人很有共鸣。
It was so it was so relatable on some on some kind of level.
是的。
Yeah.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我认为每个运动员在某个时刻都会意识到，那短短的一分钟永远无法真正体现你付出的成千上万次努力和汗水，不是吗？
I I think every sportsperson realizes that at at some point, you know, that that that minute of time is is never gonna be enough, is it, to to to literally the thousand x of time and effort you put into it.
是的。
Yeah.
那么从这个角度来说，你该如何设定目标呢？
So in that but but in that sense, how do you then go about goal setting?
对吧？
Right?
因为目标设定，我猜，必须与体育目标挂钩。
Because goal setting kind of has to be, I'm assuming, tied to a sporting goal.
就像你说的，你要参加2012年奥运会或者里约奥运会之类的。
Like you said, you're gonna be twenty twelve Olympics or Rio or however.
你当时在这方面很有条理吗，还是说这完全是自然而然发生的？
Were you quite structured about that, or was that something that basically just came as part of the process?
你知道的，你会把东西写下来吗？
You know, did you write things out?
你是怎么进行目标设定的？
How how did you go about your goal setting?
是的。
Yeah.
那很有条理。
It was quite structured.
你知道的，如果回顾一下奥运时期，我当时确实是这样。
You know, I I guess if you looked going to the Olympic kind of era, I was yeah.
一切都围绕着下一届奥运会。
You know, it's all about the next Olympic Games.
你知道的？
You know?
所以你在2011年坐下来规划。
So you sit down in 2011 or something.
对。
Right.
那是明年的目标。
That's next year's goal.
我该怎么实现它？
How do I get to that?
你知道吗？
You know?
今年我想参加哪些比赛？
What what races do I wanna do this year?
这跟资格赛有关吗？
Does that look at qualifying?
我不确定。
I don't know.
或者今年，次要目标可能是尝试在这些比赛中赢得世界冠军头衔，这意味着我需要获得参赛资格并完成这些任务。
Or or this year, the secondary goal might be to try and win the world title in these races, and that will mean that I qualify and do this.
所以，从这个意义上说，它确实很有条理。
So, yeah, it was quite structured in that sense.
我想，总体目标是我最终只是想尽可能赢得最重要的比赛，因为对我来说，这相当于证明我做到了最好的自己。
I guess the overarching goal was I ultimately just wanted to try and win the biggest races that I could because that for me was like a proxy to me being the best I could.
你知道的。
You know?
我可以去努力做到最好，然后为他们赢得一个公园，但这根本行不通。
I could go and be the best I could and win a park for them, and that doesn't really work.
为了做到最好的自己，我必须与最顶尖的选手竞争，并且至少要心怀远大目标，这样在我需要动力的时候才能激励自己。
To be the best I could, I had to race the best and, try and at least shoot for the stars, for that for that that motivation when I needed it.
所以这很重要。
So that was important.
但确实，就像我们几乎都知道的那样，在体育运动中，你可以写下并设定这些目标，然后制定计划，但你知道，计划永远赶不上变化，对吧？
But, yeah, it's structured in for, I think, like, we almost all know in in sport, you you can write down and set those goals, and then they a plan, you know, the plan never goes to plan, does it?
是的。
Yeah.
我的意思是，现在这可能很有帮助，因为你已经没有了世界奖牌和领奖台可以追求，那么你该如何过渡呢？
I mean, that's probably helpful now because now that you don't have medals and podiums of the world to kind of aim for, How how do you transition?
你是如何现在设定目标的？
Like, how do you go about your goal setting now?
你是国际奥委会运动员委员会的成员。
I mean, you're part of the IOC athletes commission.
你是个企业家。
You're an entrepreneur.
你还有自己的慈善事业。
You've got your charity.
你的担子很重。
I mean, there's a lot on your plate.
你的现状是怎样的？你是怎么应对的？
You know, how do you how do you go about it nowadays?
对自己放松一点。
Taking it easy on myself.
我不再设定目标了。
I don't really set goals anymore.
我只是
I just
真的不是。
Not really.
我只是觉得，现在说起来还挺有趣的。
I just, like, go well, at the moment, it's it's funny, actually.
我喜欢不直接回答这个问题，但换个方式回应：我仍然注意到，我会出去骑车。
I like to to kinda not answer the question, but also answer it in a different way is that I still noticed, like, I go out riding.
今天早上我出去骑车了，有时候一开始是带着例行公事的心态，想着出去骑几个小时，然后就结束。
I was out riding this morning, and it's like I'd kind of, you know, sometimes set off with a a routine mind or whatever, and I'm, like, gonna go out, do a couple of hours, and then I'm out.
等等，我突然想到。
I'm like, wait a minute.
我可以直接骑上那座山，再稍微多骑一点，再努力一点。
I could just go up that hill and do that a little bit more and do that a bit hard.
你可能会想，我为什么要这么做呢？
And and you must think, well, why why am I doing it?
这样做的目的是什么？
What's the purpose of doing that?
你知道的吧？
You know?
我到底在追求什么？
What what what am I aiming towards?
所以，是的，我目标的一部分是保持相对健康和活跃。
So, yeah, a big part of my goal is staying relatively fit and active.
另一个目标是尽量降低那种活动、锻炼和执着的强度，我想说的是，真正的目标是尽可能全面地保持强健和健康。
Another goal is to, trying to tame down that level of, activity and exercise and obsession, I guess, of trying to achieve those goals and the goal actually just to be as all around robust and healthy as possible.
我的终极目标，我想，就是全面的健康和强健。
I mean, that is, I guess, that is my ultimate goal, all round health and and robustness.
然后，是的，我生活中还有其他许多事情让我保持兴趣，不只局限于这些。
And then, yeah, I I have a a a, I guess, a a bunch of things outside of that in the rest of my life that keep me interested outside of that.
我认为我实际上还有一个更大的目标，那就是在体育之外建立另一段职业生涯，做一些让我感兴趣、让我有激情的事情，你知道的，我并不觉得
And I think I probably I do have a overarching goal of building another career actually outside of sport and something that interests me and inspires me in a similar you know, I don't
它可能会变得
think it's ever gonna be
像那样极端。
quite as much, as extreme as that.
但确实，我也想在体育之外建立一份事业。
But, yeah, I do want to build a career outside of sport as well.
我不完全确定那会是什么样子，但我已经看到自己正处于一段非常棒的探索机会期。
I'm not, well, a 100% sure what that looks like yet, but I've seen myself in a period of kind of really cool experimentation opportunities.
我试着去了解它。
I try to learn about it.
是的。
Yeah.
我认为这绝对是事实。
I think that's definitely definitely the case.
而且我觉得确实是这样。
And I think it's yeah.
我注意到的一个重要事情是，我不知道你有没有注意到，就是那种心态，你生活中的空间。
One of the big things I've noticed, I don't know if you noticed this as well, is, like, the only way to describe it is kind of the headspace, the space in your life.
你知道的吗？
You know?
人们说，你每天只训练五个小时。
People say, well, you only train for five hours in a day.
那你其余的时间都做了什么？
What did you do with the rest of the time?
我实际上确实也做了一些事情，但就是没有那个精力。
And I actually always did do a little bit some of the stuff, but you just don't have the capacity.
对吧？
Right?
你只是精疲力尽了。
You're just knackered.
你只是精疲力尽了。
You're just knackered.
你很专注。
You're focused.
你在想下一次训练。
You're thinking about the next session.
我认为这正是应该如此的。
And I think that's how it's got to be.
所以，事实上，你可能会惊讶于自己实际上还有多少精力和空间去做其他事情，我发现这种身心能量的结合真的让我很意外。
And so and, actually, it's quite amaze you know, the the amount of space as it were, but and that's a combination of physical and mental energy I found to do other things has has actually really surprised me.
是的，完全正确。
Yeah, absolutely.
我的意思是，如果你想想看，如果你在做真正深入的工作，完全专注、没有任何干扰，有几个人能说自己每天都能做到五小时这样的状态呢？
I mean, if you think about it, if you're doing really, really deep work, like fully concentrated without any distraction, how many people can say that they do five hours of that a day, right?
你知道，人们总是忙这忙那，各种电话和事务，但真正五小时的深度工作是极其耗费精力的。
You know, People are running around and then there's this and that call and these kinds of things, but actual deep work of five hours is incredibly taxing.
而找到那种专注力和能力，保持如此高度的专注和警觉，我认为大多数人根本无法理解。
Whereas finding the concentration and capacity to be that concentrated and to sorry, to be that switched on, I think is something that most people would actually have no idea about.
是的。
Yeah.
对。
Yeah.
我觉得你说得对。
I think you're probably right.
我们走着瞧。
We'll see.
看看我们俩是否能把这种动力用到其他事情上。
We'll see if either of us can put that drive into other things.
正在努力中。
Working on it.
正在努力中。
Working on it.
好的。
Alright.
让我们谈谈你在国际奥委会运动员委员会的角色，以及通过你的慈善事业。
Let's go to your role in the IOC on the Athletes Commission and also through your charity.
我认为，作为你所做事情的自然结果，你激励了大量运动员迈向他们的下一步。
I think you've done sort of naturally as a byproduct of what you do is inspire a whole bunch of athletes to take on their next step.
那么，你现在的方法是什么？
And kind of where do you put your approach now?
你去哪里亲力亲为？
Where do you go and be hands on?
还是你主要致力于协助各联合会，让发展路径更加清晰？
Or are you really just trying to facilitate that kind of the federations and that the pathways are more lined out?
还是你真的会直接给运动员提供建议？
Or do you actually go and and give give advice to athletes as such?
是的。
Yeah.
我觉得这是个大问题。
I think that's a big question.
我喜欢把几乎所有我做的事情都框定为：我是否在消除人们参与更多活动并表现得更好的障碍？
I I like to frame almost everything that I do in terms of, am I removing the barriers to people doing more activity and performing better?
这非常宽泛，涵盖了我所做的某些所谓正式业务，以及几乎所有与此无关的事情。
And that's specifically very broad and covers some of the the, I guess, the business proper stuff that I do, if you wanna call it that, and and almost everything outside that.
所以就基金会而言，是的，我想这是一种结合，一方面亲自参与组织策略，参加一些活动。
And so in terms of the foundation, yeah, I mean, there's a combination, I guess, of hands on actually helping organizing strategy, going to some of the events.
我想今年我们参加了五六个活动，颁发奖牌，让孩子们骑上自行车，诸如此类的事情。
I think we went to five or six of the events this year and handed up medals and put kids onto bikes and all that kind of thing.
所以，是的，是这两种方式的结合，但我实际上并不直接组织活动。
So so, yeah, a combination of that, but, yeah, I'm not actually organizing events per se.
我觉得我有一群非常出色的人，他们组成了一支很棒的团队来做这些事。
I think I have some amazing people to to do that at at a really cool team.
关于国际奥委会的运动员委员会，我认为奥林匹克运动从一个宏观的整体角度来看非常重要，同时也对我的人生产生了巨大的影响。
In terms of the the athletes commission with the IOC, you know, I think there's a the the Olympic movement, I think, is very important from a a a big holistic perspective, but, also, it's been made a massive role in my life.
因此，我觉得这里有一种责任。
So I feel like there is a responsibility there.
代表运动员置身于这一核心位置，是一种非凡的特权与责任，我非常高兴并为此感到自豪。
And I think, to represent athletes at the heart of that is, is a is an amazing, privilege and responsibility and something that I'm very happy and and proud to do.
作为一名铁人三项运动员，我想我们铁人三项运动员确实有一种小众运动的复杂性，对吧？
As a as a triathlete, as I think we we have as a triathlete, we definitely have, like, a niche sport complex, don't we?
所以，继续为我们在奥运会上争取一席之地是很好的。
And so, yeah, it's good to keep fighting for our place in in the Olympic Games.
除此之外，是的，我曾为运动员提供过建议和帮助。
Among other things, yeah, have I I have advised and helped athletes.
我曾指导并帮助贝丝·波特备战去年的奥运会，这难道只是我持续了两三年的事情吗？
I have kind of coached, helped Beth Potter up to her Olympics last year, and is that something I just did for two or three years?
她来找我，说：你看。
She came to me and said, look.
我差不多快赢比赛了，而她当时在世界杯上的表现也还不错。
I need to I'm kind of on the edge of not far off winning races, and she was kinda doing alright at World Cups.
我该怎么让她参加奥运会？
How do I, get him out at Olympic Games?
我说，三年内你需要完成a、b或c。
And I said over three years, you kinda need to do a, b, or c.
她确实非常自律和勤奋，作为一名运动员，这简直令人惊叹。
And she actually, to her credit, that, you know, is incredibly disciplined and hardworking athlete, which was just amazing to see.
她做到了，而且表现优异，这很酷，我也很享受参与其中的过程。
She did it and and delivered, which was cool, and I I enjoyed being part of that.
但这一切我只是纯粹出于热爱，想帮她一把。
But that's something I just did purely for the the love of it to to to help her out.
我想目前，我其实并没有太多参与这项运动本身。
I guess at the at the moment, yeah, I'm actually not too involved in the sport per se.
你知道的？
You know?
当然了，我有很多朋友，经常和人交流。
Obviously, I got loads of friends, talk to people.
我还会和一些家伙稍微练一练，不过当然远不如以前那么多了。
I got training with some of the guys a little bit, although, nowhere near as much as I used to, obviously.
只要还能看着约翰尼踢球，这就够了，这才是生活中真正重要的事。
Well, I can still live Johnny kicking, and that's all that really matters in life.
所以，是的。
So so yeah.
我感觉这永远不会停止。
I have a feeling that's never gonna stop.
是的。
Yeah.
可怜的家伙。
Poor guy.
是的。
Yeah.
上个周末，我们和全国公路越野冠军赛的选手一起比赛，结果我们都从领先集团中掉队了。
We were racing the national gravel champs last weekend, and we both got dropped from the front group.
而且，整整两个小时，我感觉特别痛苦。
And, basically, for two hours, I was so miserable.
然后我突然感觉到他开始吃力了，一瞬间我就精神起来了。
And then I I just sensed that he was starting to struggle, and all of a sudden, I perked right up.
这太搞笑了。
It was so funny.
我当时从只想勉强完赛，突然转变成在想：我该怎么赢过他？
I was like I went from just trying to get around this thing to thinking, how am I gonna beat him?
但我相信，这种感觉永远不会从我身上消失。
But so that will never leave me, I'm sure.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
这确实，嗯，有点儿
It's so, yeah, a little bit
竞争和保持健康也很重要。
of competition and staying staying fit is important too.
是的。
Yeah.
调动心理储备，做出本能的正确决策。
Calling on that mental library to make good instinctive decisions.
对吧？
Right?
是的。
Yeah.
可怜的约翰尼得一辈子承受这一切。
Poor Johnny has to bear a lifetime of the brunt of this.
是的。
Yeah.
这确实让人不禁想问，我经常觉得，这种能力是可以训练出来的吗？
It really does kind of beg the question where I often think like, is this something that you can train?
你知道的。
You know?
那种冠军基因。
The the kind of champion gene.
这是可以训练的吗？
Is it something that you can train?
这是可以培养的吗？
Is it something that you can work on?
你知道，我听过你谈论登顶所需的天赋，某种程度上像是基因上的运气抽奖。
You know, I've heard you speak about talent that's required to get to the top in terms of, like, genetic luck of the lottery to some kind of degree.
是的。
Yeah.
还有心理韧性。
As well as a mental toughness.
你觉得这其中有很多运气成分吗？
Do think do you think there's a there's a lot of luck there?
或者你会说，你能对它产生多大影响？
Or how much can you influence it, would you say?
我认为我们都能影响一切。
I think we can all influence everything.
在某种程度上，没有什么是预先注定的。
Nothing is preordained at a certain level.
我认为我们每个人在各种能力上都有上限，比如生理上的有氧引擎、最大容量、最高速度等等。
I think we all have a ceiling at all of our all of our kind of different faculties, you know, whether that is physiological aerobic engine, your your maximum capacity, your maximum speed, you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.
在心理层面，比如韧性、毅力、工作伦理、动机等方面，我们在这所有方面也都有上限。
And then psychologically, in terms of kind of, like, your resilience and grit, your work ethic, motivation, all that, you know, we have ceilings across all these things.
而这些上限，事实上在一定程度上是由基因预先决定的。
The the truth is, which are predetermined genetically to some extent.
举个最明显、最粗浅的例子，你或我都不可能赢得百米奥运金牌。
You know, the very coarse obvious example is that you or I was never gonna win an Olympic gold medal at a 100 meters.
对吧？
Right?
即使有世界上所有的训练和科学，这也不可能发生。
With with all the training and science in the world, it was just never gonna happen.
但我们在铁人三项中做到了。
And but we did it in triathlon.
所以这其中确实有遗传因素。
So there is a genetic component to it.
但我认为，事实上，我们大多数人几乎从未接近过那个极限。
But I think the truth is that very rarely do any of us get close to that ceiling.
因此，我们所有人真正能问的唯一问题是：我们能离自己各自的极限有多近？
And so really, the question we all we have to the only question we can ask is how close do we get to our individual kind of component ceilings?
而且，是的，我们大多数人并没有那么接近。
And, yeah, we most of us don't get that close.
你和我可能比大多数人更接近，但我们都可以更接近。
You and I probably got closer than most of the people, but we can all get closer.
所以，是的，我认为人们可以实现惊人的成就。
And so, yeah, I think people can achieve amazing things.
我认为选择自己要追求的目标是一种天赋。
I think there's a talent in choosing what you want to go for.
如果我们去参加百米短跑，那简直是浪费，因为我们根本不可能有所成就。
You know, we would have been wasted if we went for the 100 meter sprint, because we never never would have done anything.
但确实如此。
But yeah.
所以要明智地选择，然后确保充分利用它，我认为这就是我的看法。
So choose wisely, and then make sure you make the most of it is, I think, is how I look at it.
是的。
Yeah.
太棒了。
Love it.
我完全同意。
Couldn't agree more.
阿拉斯泰尔，你有音乐天赋吗？
Alastair, are you musical at all?
不太算。
Not really.
不。
No.
为什么？
Why?
好吧。
Alright.
来吧。
Come on.
如果你必须把你的职业生涯比作某位音乐人或乐队，你会比作谁？为什么？
If you had to compare your career to any musician or band, who would it be and why?
如果这有帮助的话，我给你几个名字参考一下，比如你会更像披头士吗？
And if it helps you, I'll give you a couple of names just to say, you would you be more like the Beatles?
就像他们一样，革新了整个乐坛，树立了新标准，激励了一整代人。
Like, they revolutionized the scene, set a new standard, inspired, a whole generation.
滚石乐队，粗粝、执着，总是准时登场。
The Rolling Stones, gritty, relentless, always showing up on accounts.
大卫·鲍伊，重塑自我的大师，不断跨越不同时代与身份。
David Bowie, the master of reinvention, shifting through different eras and identities.
或者绿洲乐队，像一群兄弟，原始、炽热，有时混乱，但在大舞台上令人难忘？
Or the o a or Oasis, bunch of brothers, raw, fiery, sometimes chaotic, but unforgettable on a big stage?
嗯，我觉得这个类比有点牵强，但说实话，我还挺喜欢的。
Well, this I feel like this is a very forced analogy, but I do quite like it, to be fair.
而且，是的。
And but yeah.
我的意思是，我大概介于所有这些元素的结合之中。
I mean, somewhere in the combination of all those.
我最近刚去看了绿洲乐队的演出，说实话，如果非要选一个我喜爱的流行乐队，那就是绿洲了。
I went recently went to see Oasis, and I'm the if there is one, pop band that that I'm a fan of, it is Oasis, to be fair.
所以也许我希望能像他们那样，但我觉得我们离那种境界还差得远呢。
So maybe I would like to be like them, but I I think we're probably a long way from the truth, though.
并没有特别具有煽动性的人。
There's neither particularly a firebrand.
幸运的是，约翰尼和我从未发生过公开的争吵，而且至今也没有。
Thankfully, Johnny and me never had any public punch ups, and we haven't yet.
但也许有一个勉强的类比。
But maybe there is one forced analogy.
他们现在作为五十多岁的人，显然比二十年前要平静多了。
They're definitely much better as calmer 50 year olds now than they than they were twenty years ago.
所以也许十年后会迎来一次复兴。
So maybe there's gonna be a second coming in ten years' time.
是的。
Yeah.
像好酒一样越陈越香。
Aging aging like a like a good wine.
对。
It's yeah.
我只是觉得这与那种无所畏惧的赛车精神以及你投入其中的热情非常契合。
I just think kind of fits with the kind of whole fearless racing and also, yeah, the passion you brought to it.
好的。
Alright.
最后一个问题是。
Closing question.
回顾过去，如果非得选一个时刻，你觉得哪个疯狂的瞬间最能定义你，而且至今仍影响着你？
Looking back, which moment, if you can think of one, of going mental defined you the most and the one that would carry you today?
有什么想法吗？
Is there any anything that comes to mind?
你指的是哪方面？
In terms of what?
你是说积极的、消极的，还是某个转折点？具体是什么背景？
Is it like a positive or a negative or something that was a kind of turning point or what's the context?
嗯，这正是问题的关键所在。
Well, that's I mean, that's the whole thing.
对吧？
Right?
我的意思是，‘发疯’可以有很多含义。
I mean, going mental can mean many things.
它可能意味着彻底疯掉，但也可能只是某个瞬间让你意识到，作为运动员，你的时间多么宝贵，剩下的日子不多了，你希望每一刻都过得有意义——我觉得这正是你职业生涯的内在精神之一。
It can be kind of going absolutely stir crazy, but it can also just be something a moment that made you reflect on realizing, like, how precious your time is as an athlete and that you've got few days left and that you wanna make every one of them count, which I feel is one of, the underlying spirits of your career.
有没有哪一个瞬间特别突出，让你觉得‘没错，就是这个时刻’，它在精神上改变了你，或者改变了你的道路？
Is there one that stands out to you where you're like, yep, this is my moment that you would say mentally changed you or changed your path?
也许我并没有改变我的道路，但最重大的时刻是我在里约奥运会的最后两公里左右冲刺的时候。
Maybe I didn't change my path, but the most significant was that I was running into the maybe two kilometers from the end in Rio in in the Olympics in Rio.
我当时跑着，心里知道我会赢得这场比赛。
I was running along knowing that I'd win the race.
你能记得吗？
And I was like, can you remember?
因为我总是回想起我们之前关于站在领奖台上的对话。
Because I I always thought back of going you know, our conversation about standing on the podium.
你能记得在伦敦奥运会最后几百米冲刺时的情景吗？
Can you remember running down the last few 100 meters of the Olympics in London?
你现在还能记得多少比赛最后几百米或几分钟的细节？
Can how, you know, how many of those last few 100 meters or minutes of a race can you remember at it now?
我当时想，我记不起来了。
I was like, I can't.
我只能依稀记得一些片段，比如看到赛道边上的某个人。
I can remember, like, little flashes of seeing someone on the side of the course.
是的。
Like, yeah.
但这可能是最伟大的时刻之一。
But this is probably gonna be the, you know, some of the real greatest moments.
所以我当时还保持着清醒的意识，意识到这可能再也不会发生了。
So I actually had the presence of mind to think this is probably never gonna happen again.
你上次比赛时并没有记住这些。
You don't remember it from last time.
你应该记住这一刻，好好感受它。
You should you should remember this, and take it in.
而且，是的，我认为那是一个非常重要的时刻，因为没错，所有的训练、心酸和付出都值得，但它确实带来了深远的影响。
And, yeah, I think that that was a a really important moment because, yep, it it wasn't worth all the training, heartache, and everything that went into it, but, it did actually go quite a long way.
阿尔斯特，非常感谢你。
Alastair, thanks a lot.
谢谢你的宝贵时间。
Thanks for thanks for your time.
感谢你二十年来的竞争，我也期待在未来二十年里，能和你一起骑车或在其他地方分享一些冒险。
Thanks for two decades of of rivalry, and I look forward to, hopefully, over the next two decades, sharing the odd adventure out on a bike or wherever it may be.
真的很感谢你抽出时间，老兄。
Really appreciate you taking the time, mate.
期待那一天。
Looking forward to it.
非常感谢。
Thanks a lot.
谢谢邀请我。
Thanks for having me.
播客播客播客之星。
Podcast Podcast Podstars.
由OM Air出品。
By OM Air.
关于 Bayt 播客
Bayt 提供中文+原文双语音频和字幕，帮助你打破语言障碍，轻松听懂全球优质播客。