大卫·霍克尼特辑

您现在收听的是《前排》节目，我是苏特克利夫。

You're listening to Front Row with me, Sutcliffe.

你好。

Hello.

在经历了一个周末对二十世纪英国艺术乃至世界艺术最重要人物之一的大卫·霍克尼的致敬之后，还有什么好说的呢？

What is there left to say about David Hockney after a weekend of tributes to one of the most significant figures in twentieth century British art, indeed world art?

当然，艺术本身永远有得聊，它会持续引发讨论，激发灵感，挑战并重塑人们看待世界的方式。

Well, there is always the art to talk about, of course, which will continue to sustain conversations, continue to inspire and provoke and reshape how people look at the world.

今晚的《前排》全程聚焦霍克尼，我们会听其他艺术家谈他的艺术生涯与创新，也会直接听到他自己的声音。

We're devoting front row to Hockney tonight, hearing fellow artists on his career and innovations, and hearing from him too.

因为除了创作艺术，他最爱的就是谈论艺术。

Because second to making art, he loved talking about it.

观看本身是一种积极的行为，对吧？

Looking is a positive act, isn't it?

我是说，当年他们取消绘画教学的时候，我特别不满，因为教绘画其实就是教人如何去观察。

I mean, I I did complain when they gave up drawing, teaching drawing because I said teaching drawing is teaching people to look.

这其实挺有意思的。

I mean, it's interesting.

二十世纪所有伟大的摄影师，早年都接受过素描训练，也就是说，他们被教会了如何更仔细地观察。

All the great photographers of the twentieth century were all trained as draftsman, meaning they they've been taught to look harder.

已故的大卫·霍克尼，曾在2011年接受《前排》节目采访，谈过观察的重要性。

David Hockney, the late David Hockney, sadly, talking to Front Row in 2011 about the importance of looking.

今晚我们现场邀请了两位极其专注、细致的观察者：《泰晤士报》艺术评论家蕾切尔·坎贝尔-约翰斯顿，以及小说家兼艺术评论家詹姆斯·卡希尔——他即将出版一本关于霍克尼洛杉矶岁月的书。

With us live tonight, two assiduous and careful lookers, the critics Rachel Campbell-Johnston, art critic for the Times, and the novelist and art critic James Cahill, who has a book about Hockney's Los Angeles years coming out soon.

霍克尼还在布拉德福德当少年时，就已经很有主见了。

Hockney was already his own man when still a teenager in Bradford.

他模仿自己当时的艺术偶像斯坦利·斯宾塞，戴上了圆顶礼帽，还推着一辆装满绘画工具的婴儿车穿街走巷。

He wore a bowler hat in imitation of his then artist hero, Stanley Spencer, and would push a pram containing his painting materials through the streets.

在五十年代的布拉德福德，这么做可需要不少胆量。

Took a bit of nerve, that, in Bradford in the fifties.

1959年，他带着这份独特的自信来到伦敦，22岁进入皇家艺术学院，据说第一天报到就穿着蓝色工装裤，戴着一顶德国装甲兵指挥官的帽子。

And he took that striking self confidence to London in 1959 when, at the age of 22, he started at the Royal College of Art, reportedly turning up on the first day in a blue boiler suit and a German panzer tank commander's cap.

他很快就成了备受瞩目的新星。

He very rapidly established himself as a talent to watch.

他的第一份期末评语写着：‘一位才华横溢的学生，未来可能成就任何事’——这话里或许还带着点教授式的点头，认可了他早早就展现出的审美上的不可预测性。

His first end of term report read, rather a brilliant student who might do anything, perhaps a little professorial nod there to an early commitment to aesthetic unpredictability.

当艺术家玛吉·哈姆布林几年后入学时，他依然是艺术圈和社交圈里不可忽视的人物。

He was still a figure to be reckoned with artistically and socially when the artist Maggi Hambling went to college a few years later.

我 earlier 在电话里联系了她的工作室，问她是否还记得自己第一次看到的霍克尼作品。

When I talked to her earlier on a phone line to her studio, I asked her whether she could remember the first Hockney painting she ever saw.

我想那幅画是两个男孩紧紧依偎着，充满身体感，而且完全独创。

So I think it was we two boys together clinging, and it was very physical and completely original.

我第一次见到他是在派对上。

I first met him at the parties.

德里克·贾曼总是办最棒的派对，我记得大卫当时化着妆出现在那里。

Derek Jarman always gave the best parties, and I remember David being there in makeup.

他在艺术学院时的名声怎么样？

What was his reputation at art school?

你去那会儿，他是不是已经挺出名了？

Was he something of a figure at that time when you went to Yes.

那些

Those

我第一次在伦敦办展时，试着把头发染成他那样的金色，结果人家说我看上去像公交车售票员，反正我没成功。

I remember for my first show in London I tried to dye my hair blonde like his and and I was just told I looked like a bus conductress, so it didn't quite work in in my case.

他总是那样，充满张扬的气质。

He was always there, this mixture of flamboyance.

当然，他特别精明。

And, of course, he was quite canny.

他那种约克郡式的精明，就是能意识到压根没人画过洛杉矶的风景。

He had that sort of Yorkshire canniness, I mean, to realize that nobody'd painted the landscape of Los Angeles.

你明白我的意思吧？

Do you know what I mean?

他反应特别快，总能抓住当下。

He he was very on the ball and in the moment.

当然了，他算得上是个偶像。

And, of course, he was a sort of hero.

我想专门聊聊那幅画，《我们两个男孩紧紧相依》，那是我第一次看到霍克尼的作品。

I wanted to talk specifically about that painting, We Two Boys Together Clinging, which was the first Hockney you saw.

你说过，这幅画特别有原创性。

And you said it was kind of strikingly original.

我们知道，他在布拉德福德艺术学院上学时，就已经是个天赋异禀的素描高手了。

We know that from his time in Bradford at art school there that he was a precocious draftsman.

但在这幅画里，他似乎有意放下了那种功底，对吧？

But he's turning his back on that a bit in this painting, isn't he?

画中的两个人物，线条简单得像小孩画的，细腿，身体方方正正的。

The the two figures are drawn with this childlike simplicity, stick legs, sort of rectangular bodies.

那你看到这幅画时，到底是什么让你觉得这么震撼？

So what was it about that that was so striking when you saw it?

我觉得，是那种粗粝感，还有那种迫切的劲头。

It was the roughness of it, really, and the urgency of it.

当然了，如果没有RB Kitty，他也不会开始画这些画。

And, of course, he wouldn't have started these paintings without RB Kitty.

他在皇家艺术学院的时候，和Kitty还有Adrian Berg都是很好的朋友。

He was a great friend of Kitty when he was at the Royal College and also Adrian Berg.

那时候Kitty自己也挺迷茫的，不知道该画点什么。

And Kitty, you know, he was a bit stuck as to what to paint.

于是Kitty就建议他画那些真正关心的、贴近自己生活的东西。

And Kitty suggested he painted what what he cared about, what was close to him, what was going on in his life.

正因如此，他才开始创作这些早期的亲密题材作品。

And that's what caused, you know, him to begin these early intimate paintings.

《我们两个男孩紧紧依偎》这个标题来自惠特曼的一首诗，他还把诗里的一些句子写在了画布上。

The We Two Boys Together Clinging, the title comes from a Walt Whitman poem, and he and he's written a bit of that Walt Whitman poem on the canvas.

尽情享受力量，伸展双臂，紧握手指，无畏而坚强，吃着，喝着，睡着，爱着。

Power enjoying, elbows stretching, fingers clutching, armed and fearless, eating, drinking, sleeping, loving.

太棒了。

It's terrific.

但你看，画面本身已经说明了一切，那些文字只是额外加上的。

But, I mean, the image says it, and then, of course, those words are sort of an added thing.

我记得他画过一幅特别搞笑的画，叫《由画布上的地板导致的事故》。

Then I remember a terribly funny painting he did, which was called accident caused by a floor in the canvas.

画里是一长串举着火炬的奥运运动员。

And it was a long line of Olympic runners holding torches.

他们沿着一片风景奔跑，结果画布上突然冒出一块地板，有个运动员被绊倒了。

They were running along this landscape, and there was a floor in the canvas, and one of them trips over it.

这幅画确实挺有意思的。

I mean, it's a very interesting painting.

他又一次选择了极其朴素的表达方式。

Again, he's gone for a kind of real simplicity.

那些奥运运动员画得几乎像剪影一样，对吧？

The Olympic runners are done almost like stencils, aren't they?

是的。

Yeah.

重复的形态。

Repeated forms.

他并没有依赖自己擅长的东西。

He's not leaning into what he knows he can do.

那时他转向了别的方向。

He's going somewhere else at that point.

没错。

Exactly.

大卫最了不起的地方就在于他不断尝试，一辈子都在做实验，生活本身就是一场精彩的实验。

Well, that is the great thing about David is his experiment experiment experiment and he was constantly experimenting and his whole life was a wonderful experiment.

这时候，具象艺术的地位如何？

And what's the standing of representational art at this point?

是不是有人对它有点不安？

Is there a sort of slight anxiety about it?

抽象表现主义从美国兴起，某种程度上已经占据了主导地位。

You've got abstract expressionism coming in from America and obviously making all the running in some ways.

没错，就是这样。

Well, exactly.

我记得以前去看弗朗西斯·培根的展览，大家都觉得去看他的画有点不正经，那时候流行的是抽象表现主义和欧普艺术，那才是主流。

And I remember when I used to go and go to Francis Bacon shows, it was regarded by everyone as a bit of a dirty habit to go and look at Francis Bacon because abstract expressionism and op art, and that was everything that was in at the time.

他确实做过一些类似波普艺术的作品，或者至少是朝着那个方向走的。

He does do a version of pop art or sort of seems to to move towards it.

有一幅画叫《幻觉风格的茶画》，是他1961年在艺术学院时画的，画的是一个台风牌茶盒。

There's that painting called Tea Painting in an Illusionistic Style, which he makes in 1961 when he's at art school, and it's a typhoon tea box.

对。

Yes.

但画里还藏着一个人物形象。

But with a figure contained within it.

没错。

Yes.

我知道。

I know.

就像个男孩醒过来，急着想喝杯茶，对吧？

It's like a boy waking up and desperate for his cup of tea, isn't it?

我的意思是，这一切都特别有人情味。

I mean, it's all very human.

这正是他的特点。

That's the thing about him.

我想聊聊他的幽默感。

I'd like to talk a bit about his humor.

我在七十年代伦敦办过一场展览，他亲自来了，还走过来找我。

I mean, I had an opening in the seventies in London, and he came to it, and he came up to me.

他对我说：玛吉，你看起来紧张极了。

And he said, Maggi, you're looking very nervous.

我就回答：是啊，大卫。

And so I said, yes, David.

然后他说：那你听个笑话吗？

And he said, well, would you like a joke?

我回答说：‘当然好啊，大卫。’

And I said, yes, please, David.

他说：‘你听过凡·高的那个笑话吗？’

And he said, have you heard the one about Van Gogh?

于是我答：‘没听过，大卫。’

So I said, no, David.

他说：‘问题就在于，你跟他说什么，话进了一只耳朵，就卡在那儿了。’

He said, trouble with him was you told him something and it went in one ear and it stayed there.

你知道吗？他这么一说，全场都轻松下来了。

You know, it was it was it absolutely loosened everything up.

他六十年代初画的那些画，颜色都很淡，跟后来搬到加州之后的作品比起来，简直天差地别。

Those early pictures that he's making in the in the very early nineteen sixties, they're quite muted in their colors, certainly compared to what comes when he when he moves to California.

这是为什么呢？

Why is that?

是因为伦敦的光线和加州的光线不一样吗？

Is it just, you know, London light compared to California light?

你知道吧，他是在灰蒙蒙的北方长大的，对吧？

You know, he grew up in the gray North, didn't he?

他画的都是北方那种风景。

And he painted northern kind of landscapes.

我觉得这种色调挺有英国味的。

It's an English sort of thing, I think, this this color.

有一幅特别棒的画叫《蛇》，画的就是一条蛇。

There's a wonderful, wonderful painting called snake, which is just simply of a snake.

这些早期作品的诗意才最打动人。

I mean, it's the poetry of these early works that's so wonderful.

你到底最喜欢它哪一点？

What is it that you like so much about it?

再说那幅《蛇》，真的特别孩子气。

I mean, that painting of Snake, again, it's very, very childlike.

就是从正上方平视，蛇盘在画布上，画得特别简单。

It just flat seen from above coiled on the canvas, very simply done.

我觉得，那就是他做自己。

Well, I think it was him being himself.

我觉得艺术家从来都没真正长大，所以这种孩子气的东西自然就流露出来了。

I I think artists never really grow up, and so this child thing just flowed out of him.

这位艺术家叫玛吉·哈姆布林。

The artist, Maggi Hambling.

1963年他在伦敦首次办展大获成功后，霍克尼就去了美国加州——那地方他早就在伦敦翻阅的同性恋杂志里幻想过无数次。

After the success of his first London show in 1963, Hockney headed to America and California, a place he'd visited in fantasy through the gay magazines he'd poured over in London.

早在‘出柜’这个词还没出现的时候，他就已经坦然做自己了，更不用说1967年同性恋合法化之前。

He was out and proud before the concept had even been invented and well before the decriminalization of homosexuality in 1967.

加州对他的艺术来说，确实带来了根本性的转变。

And California turned out to be transformative for his art.

詹姆斯·卡希尔，你即将出版的新书《比弗利山庄的家庭主妇》，讲的就是他在洛杉矶的那段岁月。

James Cahill, your forthcoming book, The Beverley Hills Housewife, is about his Los Angeles years.

据说，他刚到加州时，整个人兴奋得不得了。

He's described landing in California in a state of huge excitement.

那个地方对他的艺术产生了什么影响？

What did that place do to his art?

哦，那简直彻底改变了他。

Oh, it absolutely transformed it.

我觉得他早就有预感了。

And I think he knew it was going to.

我的意思是，他还没去洛杉矶之前，就已经知道自己会爱上那里。

I mean, he knew that he was gonna love Los Angeles before he ever went there.

正如你所说，他脑海里早就有了一个极其鲜明的洛杉矶形象，这个形象其实从他小时候在布拉德福德看电影就开始形成了——那时候的电影院被叫做‘小破影院’，他看老劳莱与哈代的电影，被那种锐利分明的影子和加州的阳光深深吸引。

He had, as you say, this incredibly strong mental image of it that had been forged actually from a very early age as a kid going to the movies in Bradford, to the flea pit cinemas as they were called, seeing old Laurel and Hardy films, being enchanted by the sharp edged shadows that you would see, the Californian sunshine.

后来，当然还有他当学生时在伦敦找到的那些同志杂志。

Then later, of course, those gay magazines that he found as a student in London.

比如约翰·雷奇1963年的小说《城市之夜》，讲的全是洛杉矶地下男妓的世界。

Things like John Rachey's 1963 novel, City of Night, which was all about the the hustling gay underworld in LA.

所以，那不仅是艺术上的机遇，也是性方面的机遇？

So it was a sort of sexual opportunity as well as artistic opportunity?

没错，就是这样。

Oh, absolutely that.

他早就知道会这样。

And he knew it would be.

后来他常说，到了那儿才发现，实际体验比他想象的还要好上三倍。

And then when he went, he he liked to say later that it was three times better than he thought it was going to be.

这对他作品的影响简直太巨大了。

And and and it had this incredible impact on his work.

他从皇家学院时期那种杂乱、情绪化、内敛的风格，转变成了更加明亮、清晰、真实的表达。

He went from producing that quite messy, gestural, interiorised work from the Royal College to something much more luminous and lucid and real.

拉切尔，他在这里摆脱的是什么呢？

Rachel, what is he shaking off here?

在布拉德福德，可不太容易见到那种锐利分明的光影。

You don't get sharp edged shadows in Bradford all that often.

他应该是在摆脱在布拉德福德和皇家学院接受的那套教育吧？

But is he he's presumably shaking off the education he got in Bradford and at the Royal College?

我觉得他是在摆脱两样东西。

I think he's shaking off two things.

一是战后英国的那种氛围。

One is the atmosphere of England in the post war era.

你想想，灰蒙蒙的、冷峻的战后英国，可能还带着配给制的阴影、压抑的工业景观。

You think grey, austere post war England, probably the shadow of rationing, restraint, industrial landscapes.

二是艺术圈本身。

And the second is the art world.

那时候还流行一种严肃的现代主义观念，觉得艺术必须庄重、必须 intellectually 难懂、必须形式化，你想想亨利·摩尔或者格雷厄姆·萨瑟兰，还有前面提到的抽象表现主义，抽象艺术被认为是唯一的出路。

There's still that very idea of serious modernism, that you must be grave, that it must be intellectually difficult, that it must be formal, you think about Henry Moore or Graham Sutherland and also as was talked about earlier, there was abstraction, the abstract expressionists and abstraction was seen as the way forwards.

但霍克尼并不想那样做。

But Hockney didn't want to do that.

他不希望艺术变得阴暗、焦虑又难懂。

He wanted art not to be dark and troubled and difficult.

他想画自己熟悉的东西，或者自己喜欢的东西。

He wanted to paint things that he knew or things that he liked.

他想画泳池、人物和明亮的风景。

He wanted to paint pools and people and bright landscapes.

我觉得加州给了他实现这种突破的视觉语言。

And I think California gave him the visual language for that break.

明亮的色彩、现代建筑、开阔的空间，还有注重展示的文化，

You know, bright colors, modern architecture, open spaces, a culture of display and

加州确实给了他这种语言，但他自己创造了一套独特的表达方式，对吧？

It certainly gave him that language but he invented his own vocabulary, didn't he?

他写过，第一次飞抵洛杉矶时，从空中俯瞰那些泳池，感到特别兴奋。

He wrote about flying into Los Angeles and seeing from the air the swimming pools and the excitement of that, seeing it below him.

很多去那里的人应该都有过类似的经历。

It's a thing that's happened to a lot of people, I think, who visited.

但他独创了一套专门描绘水的绘画语言。

But he creates his own vocabulary just for painting water.

也就是说，那些早期画作里，这其实是个明显的标志，对吧？

I mean, that's sort of signal in those early paintings, isn't it?

我特别喜欢。

I love it.

没错。

Absolutely.

抱歉，蕾切尔。

Sorry, Rachel.

我本来想说，这水景确实成了他的标志性主题，大概在六十五六六年的时候。

I was just gonna say it, but it became his it really became his motif, water, in around '65, '66.

但有意思的是，他其实从最初那种比较泛泛的洛杉矶泳池、棕榈树的构图，转向了更具体的内容。

But but interestingly, actually, he he went from this fairly generic vision of LA pools, LA palm trees, actually to something much more specific.

他开始描绘真实可辨的人物，比如小说家克里斯托弗·伊舍伍德和他的伴侣们。

And he did begin to paint nameable people, knowable people like Christopher Isherwood, the novelist, and his partners.

你的书名取自一幅画，画的是位很有名的收藏家，而且

Well, your your book is named after a painting which is of a notable kind of collector and

确实是。

and It is.

一个真实存在的人。

A real person.

尽管那幅画叫《比佛利山庄的家庭主妇》，还是带着某种典型形象或泛化符号的意味。

Although it the painting was called Beverly Hills Housewife, so there was still this idea of it being an archetype or something generic.

那时候，他正处在两者之间的转折点上。

You know, he was at the pivots then between those two.

拉切尔，罗伯特·休斯曾称他为当代艺术的冷淡旁观者。

Rachel, Robert Hughes once described him as the cold porter of contemporary art.

这话听起来有点居高临下。

And there was something slightly sniffy about that.

有点轻蔑，但话里确实有几分道理，对吧？

It's a bit condescending, but there is a truth there, isn't it?

大卫·霍克尼在很多人创作无调性音乐的时候，写出了极其动听又令人难忘的旋律。

David David Hockney was writing wildly memorable tunes at a time when a lot of other people were doing atonal music.

是的，你说得对。

Yeah, you're quite right.

这么说吧，这个比喻其实带点刺，至少是有点尖锐的。

It was a slightly barbed comparison to say the least.

但仔细想想，波特的歌词表面上像随口开个玩笑，直到你注意到那些押韵和结构，才被吸引进去。

But actually, if you think about it, a Porter lyric can seem like a casual joke in a way until you notice the rhymes and the structure which draw us in.

霍克尼的画作看起来也很简单。

And a Hockney image also can look very simple.

但如果你真去琢磨他笔下的线条、色彩和空间的安排，就会发现他其实是在解决一些真正棘手的问题。

But if you actually think about the drawing, the decisions he's made about colour and space, these are real problems he's solving.

我觉得，他某种程度上确实是当代艺术的冷峻代言人，连性格上也是。

And I think it was the cold port of contemporary art in a way and temperament as well.

你想想波特，优雅又见多识广，是个典型的上流社会人物，霍克尼的形象也是一样。

If you think about how Porter was this elegant, worldly, society figure and Hockney's image was also the same.

从学生时代开始，他就逐渐塑造出一种个人形象。

He was becoming a persona even from student days onwards.

他确实就是这样。

He certainly was that.

我稍后想再多聊聊肖像画，因为多年来这一直是霍克尼作品中不变的主题。

I want to talk a little bit more about portraiture in a moment because it's an absolute constant in Hockney's work over the years.

据他2015年在这档节目里对基尔斯蒂·兰所说，肖像画始终带给他无尽的愉悦。

It seems to be an unfailing source of pleasure for him as he told Kirsty Lang on this program in 2015.

我做完别的事情之后，总会不自觉地回到肖像画上。

I'm always going back to portraits when I've done other things.

我刚刚又回头画起了肖像。

I just went back to portraits.

为什么呢？

Why?

因为我刚回到加州。

Well, I'd gone back to California.

JP当时正闲坐在那儿。

JP was just sitting around.

他把手撑在脸上，摆出了那个姿势。

He put his head in his hands like that.

我当时就想，这不就像梵高的那幅画吗？

And I thought, well, it's like that Van Gogh painting.

于是我就照那样画了他，从那以后我就开始画肖像了。

So I painted him like that, and that started me off doing portraits.

到现在我已经画了六十一幅肖像了。

I've now done 61 portraits.

都是坐在同一把餐厅椅子上画的，木头椅子，黄色坐垫，背景是蓝绿色，对吧？

And they're all painted sitting on the same dining room chair wood with yellow upholstery against this blue green background, aren't they?

对。

Yes.

为什么要这样安排？

What's the idea behind that?

因为每个人坐姿都不一样，所以每幅画都能看出是独特的个体。

Well, then they're all seen as individuals because each one sits in the chair a bit differently.

椅子放在一个抬高的平台上，所以我能看清脚和手。

The chair is on a raised platform, so I see the feet and the hands.

所以你能看到脚、鞋子，还有其他细节。

So you can see the foot as feet, shoes, things as well.

每个人看起来都不一样，而他们本来就是不一样的。

And every one of them looks like an individual, and that's what they are.

他们每个人的坐姿时间都差不多吗？

And and and do they all sit for a similar amount of time?

或者

Or

是的。

Well, yes.

每天大概六小时，一共三天。

It's approximately six hours a day, three days.

加起来一共十八个小时。

So it's an eighteen hour exposure.

大卫·霍克尼在《前沿》节目中接受基尔斯蒂·兰的采访，谈论他2015年的绘画与摄影展。

David Hockney talking to Kirsty Lang on front row about an exhibition of his paintings and photography in 2015.

曾为霍克尼当模特的其中一人是广播人、政治记者兼画家安德鲁·马尔，他之前跟我们聊过，被这样专注地凝视是什么感觉。

One of the people who sat for Hockney was the broadcaster and political journalist and painter, Andrew Marr, who talked to us earlier about what it was like to be the object of that singular attention.

他全程一言不发。

He was completely silent.

他觉得专心画画的时候不该说话。

He doesn't believe in talking while he's concentrating.

可你知道，他平时是个特别健谈的人。

And, you know, he's a very, very conversational man.

他喜欢没完没了地聊各种话题。

He loved to talk on all subjects at inordinate length.

但只要一拿起画笔，让我坐到椅子上，他就用一种异常专注的眼神盯着我，那一刻他完全成了一个画家，只专注于绘画，对任何干扰都毫不在意，安静得不得了。

But the minute he'd picked up the brush and he'd sat me in the chair, he was looking at me with this extraordinary intense stare, and he was suddenly only an artist, only a painter, utterly uninterested in any kind of distraction, very, very quiet.

我只盯着他，看他的眼睛不停地在我身上和画纸之间来回扫视，唰唰唰唰唰，手也一刻不停地动着。

I just kept watching the way his eyes would dart to me and then back to the paper, dart, dart, dart, dart, dart, and his hand would be moving.

他连看都不看自己的手，就那么画着。

He didn't even look at his hand as was painting.

他就那样一直盯着我看。

He was just looking at me.

最后画出来的肖像特别传神，不过那时候我看起来像个有点不高兴的水煮蛋。

And the result was a very, very strong likeness, though I looked like a slightly offended boiled egg at the time.

这可不是我见过的最讨喜的肖像。

It wasn't the most flattering portrait I've ever seen.

他以前对自己画的肖像特别苛刻。

He used to be very self critical of his own portraits.

要是觉得画得不对劲，他就直接扔了。

I mean, he abandoned them if he if it didn't work.

他得真正找到那个人的神韵才行。

He he had to find the person.

他觉得找到你了吗？

Did he feel he'd found you?

我们可是聊了挺长时间的。

Well, we've been talking for a long time.

他总说，画一个人之前，至少得稍微了解一点这个人。

He always said that he wanted to know somebody at least a bit before he drew them.

我觉得他最棒的那些肖像，当然是画他父母的，尤其是他妈妈。

And I think his best pictures, his best portraits were of his parents, obviously, and particularly his mother.

还有像约翰·卡斯明这样的艺术经纪人，或者克里斯托弗——他曾经的恋人，他都非常熟悉，而且认识了很久。

And then friends like John Kasmin, the art dealer, or Christopher, his lover for a while, who he knew very well and for a long time.

真正出色的肖像，都源于深刻的了解。

The great portraits came out of great knowledge.

当然，他也画过很多其他名人，比如奥登、伊舍伍德、斯蒂芬·斯彭德这些人。

Though he drew, obviously, very famous other people as well, Orden and Isherwood and Stephen Spender and others.

提到这些名字，人们自然就会想到那些肖像画。

Those those names will summon the portraits.

我是说，他七十年代画的那些出色的彩色铅笔肖像。

I mean, those extraordinary colored pencil portraits he did in the nineteen seventies.

有没有哪几幅肖像特别让你印象深刻？

Are there particular portraits there that stand out for you?

我想可能是因为那个半真半假、但我希望是真的关于奥登的粗鲁小故事。

I think perhaps because of the semi apocryphal, but I hope true rude story about Auden.

我永远都记得这个。

I'll always remember that one.

据说当时BBC采访他，问他：‘霍克尼先生，您这么年轻就能为这位我们最著名、最受尊敬的诗人画像，一定非常自豪吧？'

You know, he was asked, I think, allegedly by a BBC interview at the time, well, mister Hockney, you must be very, very proud to be privileged in such a young age to be to be drawing and perhaps our our most famous and celebrated poet.

事实上，他是世界上最有名的诗人之一。

In fact, one of the greatest poets of the world.

是啊。

Aye.

面对这么一位伟大的人物，您会不会觉得有点压力，不敢下笔？

And you you must feel a little bit of sense of it's a bit forbidding to be having to draw such a great great man.

是啊。

Aye.

那您给伟大的W.H.奥登画像时，心里到底在想些什么？

And so what's going through your head when you're drawing the great W H Warden?

要是他脸长这样，那下面得是什么样啊？

Our thinking, if that's what his face looks like, what must his testicles look like?

正因如此，这个画面一直留在我脑子里。

So that's For that reason, that stays in my head.

我觉得，除了这个，塞莉娅·伯特维斯尔的彩铅画，绝对是二十世纪下半叶最动人的艺术作品之一。

I think beyond that, the colored pencil drawings of Celia Birtwistle are some of the most beautiful works of art, you know, committed in the second half of the twentieth century.

简直美得不可思议。

They are just exquisite.

他有种天生的魔力，一笔下去就出神入化。

He had this golden golden touch.

这些肖像真是非同凡响。

They are extraordinary portraits.

它们完全能和荷尔拜因的作品并列悬挂。

Those I mean, they they can hang alongside Holbein.

我觉得，它们也能和安格拉的作品相提并论。

They can hang alongside Angra, I think.

没错。

Absolutely.

他后来就转向别的了。

He moves on from that.

他的一个老朋友，亨利·盖尔扎勒，是美国艺术界非常重要的人物，既是策展人也是评论家，曾经说过，他之所以不断转变，是因为他对某种技法的兴趣只持续到它还能提供挑战为止。

An an old friend of his, Henry Gelzarler, who was a very important figure in American art, a curator and a critic, said of him once that he moved on because he's interested in a technique only as long as it provides resistance.

你觉得这话有道理吗？

Do you think that was true?

他是不是必须在创作过程中感觉到自己在进步，才会继续下去？

That he he had to feel he was learning something as he was working?

这个说法真有意思。

That's a really interesting way of putting it.

我以前还真没这么想过。

I hadn't heard it like that.

但我认为，他一直坚信，一个真正的艺术家必须不断突破艺术的边界。

But I think he always believed that to be a serious artist you had to push the boundaries of what art could do.

在他看来，真正重大而艰难的界限，是时间。

And in his view, the really big boundary, the really tough one, was time.

你怎么把时间和运动融入一个平坦的平面媒介里？

How do you integrate time and movement into a flat plastic surface?

他一生中花了大量时间，用各种方式尝试解决这个问题——从巨大的照片拼贴，到他在立体主义上的探索，当然还有他的iPad画作，那些画可以倒放，让你亲眼看到它们是如何被一笔笔创作出来的。

And he spent an awful lot of his life trying to resolve that in various ways, ranging from the huge photographic collages to his experiments in cubism, and of course to his iPad pictures, which can be wound back so you can see them actually being made as he makes them.

他搬到加州后，丙烯颜料对他来说有多重要？

How important was the use of acrylics to him when he moved to California?

因为丙烯画出来效果特别独特，对吧？

Because it produces a very distinctive look, doesn't it?

那些大块的、没有层次的色块。

These big blocks of of color, undifferentiated color.

是的。

Yes.

特别平坦。

Very flat.

我本人其实不太喜欢丙烯颜料。

I I I'm not a huge admirer of acrylic.

几年前他办了一场大型回顾展，从一个展厅走到另一个展厅，你能明显看出他什么时候放下了丙烯，转而用油画，因为油彩的颜色更饱满。

He needed a great big retrospective a few years back, and you could see walking from room to room where he left the acrylic behind and moved to oil because the color is just richer.

其实去年十月我还跟他聊过这事儿，因为我刚开始用丙烯，就向他请教一些技巧。

I was talking to him about it in October actually because I've started to use acrylic and I was asking for some tips.

他总是特别乐意分享经验。

He was always very generous with tips.

他说过去十年里丙烯颜料的质量提升了很多，尤其是他后来开始用的慢干型丙烯。

And he said that the quality of acrylic paint has improved dramatically in the last ten years, particularly the slow drying acrylics he was starting to use.

但我认为，在那个阶段，丙烯确实让他能画出非常巨大的作品，表面平滑得几乎看不出变化，尽管他用的笔刷特别小。

But I think, yes, in that period, it allowed him to make very, very big pictures with smooth, almost unchanging surfaces, though he used a very small brush.

你要是仔细看，会发现他竟然是用一支极细的笔，画出了那些深蓝的天空和无边无际的绿野。

If you look closely, a terribly small brush to, you know, produce those huge cobalt skies or those endless green fields.

他有幅画我很喜欢，特别美。

He there's a lovely painting I like of his very much.

这幅画叫《泳池里漂浮的橡皮圈》。

It's called Rubber Ring Floating in a Swimming Pool.

对。

Yes.

1964年。

1964.

你一看，这简直是他对色域绘画开的玩笑，而色域绘画又是从抽象表现主义里发展出来的。

And you look at it, it looks like his joke about colour field painting, which emerges out of abstract expressionism.

画面是个深蓝带点绿的长方形，上面有个特别规整的红色圆圈，底下还有一排陶土色的条纹。

It's a dark blue teal rectangle with this absolutely geometrical red circle on it, and then a row of kind of terracotta ochre along the bottom.

这当然是一幅具象画，可看起来却跟抽象色域画一模一样。

And it is, of course, a representational painting, but it looks exactly like an abstract color field painting.

我觉得，汤姆，这绝对是大卫·霍克尼的经典幽默，尤其是他故意拿所谓的抽象主义开涮。

It's an absolutely classic David Hockney joke, I think, Tom, particularly because it's made against so called abstractionism.

他最新的展览，现在还在塞尔彭特画廊展出，里面有一幅他模仿罗斯科作品的画。

In his latest show, still on, I think, The Serpentine, there is one of his representations of a Rothko picture.

我后来问他，为什么偏偏要拿罗斯科开这种玩笑。

And I asked him afterwards why he had chosen to, as it were, guy or tease Rothko in that.

他只是翻了个白眼，说：人们一直觉得，罗斯科这一生其实都在走向自杀。

And he just rolled his eyes and he said, well, people used to say that Rothko was on his way to suicide all his life really.

我就想，那他怎么拖了这么久才动手？

I just thought, why did it take him so long?

他总觉得，抽象绘画没什么出路。

He had he had a kind he felt that abstract painting wasn't going anywhere.

尽管他确实有一段时期——也就是八十年代末到九十年代——自己也在画抽象画，被称为‘新作’系列。

Even though he spent quite a period, the so called very new paintings in the '19 late nineteen eighties, nineteen nineties, where he was doing abstract painting himself.

但最终他认为，绘画必须有内容，才能真正吸引人。

He felt in the end painting has to be about something to draw you in.

他骨子里有一种强烈的冲动，就是要描绘真实的世界。

There's that absolute drive to depiction of the world.

他在一本叫《秘密知识》的书里讨论过这个问题，认为光学和透镜的使用，比大多数人想象的要早得多，也普遍得多。

He dealt with this in a book called Secret Knowledge, in which he argued that the use of optics and lenses had been much more widespread, much much earlier than most people thought.

大多数艺术史学家并不认同他的观点，对吧？

Most art historians didn't agree with him, did they?

当时这引发了巨大争议，但他其实挺享受这种争议，也挺喜欢自己的书。

It caused an absolute rumpus at the time, and he was delighted by the rumpus as well as by the book, I think.

是的。

Yes.

他认为像卡拉瓦乔这样的人，明显是借助特定光源的透镜来作画的。他能像真正的艺术家那样，详细解释为什么这么想，还当场演示给你看。

He thought that people like, for instance, Caravaggio had clearly used lenses from particular light sources, and he would explain in great detail as perhaps only a practicing artist can why he thought that, and he would demonstrate that.

后来他还创作了一组非常著名的暗箱素描，画的是皇家艺术学院的官员和工作人员穿着制服的样子。

He then made a very famous series of camera obscura drawings, including of Royal Academy officials and staff in their uniforms.

这些画用铅笔画得极其精致，效果非常震撼，这正是他想证明的。

Again, beautifully done in pencil and striking the like Ang, which was his point.

他认为安格也在做同样的事。

He thought Ang was doing the same thing.

但这里其实有个矛盾，不是吗？

But there we but it there is a paradox here, isn't there?

因为那些早期的素描，他根本没用过画影仪。

Because a lot of those early drawings, he did not use a camera lucida himself.

他是靠眼睛直接观察来画的。

He drew by looking.

那他为什么觉得安格一定用了工具呢？

Why did he believe Angra had to use an instrument?

他并没有这么认为。

He didn't.

我觉得是因为那些线条的画法，如果你看看他亲手画的那些作品——就像我说的，他天生就有一种超凡的直觉，眼睛和心灵配合得天衣无缝。

I think it's because of the way the lines were made, and if you look at his own by hand drawings, because as I say, he had this uncanny, of, as it were, God given skill with the eye and the heart.

他说过，画画需要三样东西：心、眼和手。

He said you need three things: heart, eye and hand.

缺了哪一样都不行，但他的眼睛和手却能完全默契地协同工作，简直不可思议。

Two won't do, but his eye and his hand move together in a completely uncanny way.

我觉得手绘的素描更出色，但你也能明显看出，用暗箱画出来的作品风格完全不同。

I think that the drawings done by hand are better, but you can certainly see that the drawings done with a camera obscura are different.

这跟感知和对比度上极其细微的调整有关，我觉得。

It's to do with very, very small adjustments to perception and and to contrast, I think.

你刚才提到手的重要性。

You were talking about the importance of the hand there.

现在在塞佩尔汀画廊展出的那部介绍视频里，他年纪已经很大了，手还在抖。

The introductory video to to that show that's on at the Serpentine now shows him he's very old, and his hand shakes.

确实如此。

It does.

这毫无疑问。

There's no question.

他在视频里明确谈到，iPad让他在其他媒介无法继续创作时，依然能坚持作画。

And he he talks there quite explicitly about how the iPad allowed him to continue working when other mediums would have prevented him.

你觉得那些晚年用iPad画的作品，有没有失去些什么？

Did anything get lost in those late iPad paintings, do you think?

确实有不少人批评那些作品。

Well, there are a lot of critics of them.

我觉得他总体上实现了自己的目标，尤其是那些在约克郡创作、被放大后的作品，非常惊人。

I think overall he achieved what he wanted to achieve, particularly the ones done in Yorkshire when blown up big are remarkable.

但毫无疑问，用铅笔或画笔在真正的纸张或画布上直接作画，效果比用iPad预设的笔触更好。

But there's no doubt that the fingers with a pencil or a brush pushing into actual paper or actual canvas work better than the pre prepared mark making of an iPad.

我个人是这么认为的。

I think so anyway.

但另一方面，iPad让他得以以原本无法达到的速度创作。

But on the other hand, it allowed him to work at a speed that he wasn't able to work at otherwise.

他经常发照片给你，对吧？

He sent you pictures, didn't he?

每周都发？

Weekly?

我人生中有一段特别开心的时期，每次手机一响，就收到一幅大卫·霍克尼新画的iPad作品。

There was a very happy period in my life where there would be a ping and there would be a fresh new David Hockney iPad drawing.

画的不是花，就是一瓶酒、日落、日出、法国的树，或者布里德灵顿海边落下的太阳。

And it would be of flowers, or a bottle of wine, or a sunset, or a sunrise, or some trees in France, or the sun going down over the sea by Bridlington.

它们就像一张张色彩鲜艳的明信片，寄给朋友们，仿佛在说：生活真美好啊。

And they were just kind of brightly coloured postcards flung out to his friends to say, isn't life just amazing?

热爱生活。

Love life.

你去过布里德灵顿看他吧？还亲眼看他现场写生。

You visited him in Bridlington, didn't you, and and watched him paint in, as it were, plein air.

他在大自然面前，是不是也一样专注又安静？

Was he the same in in front in nature as intent and silent?

是的。

He was.

他画画的时候，完全心无旁骛。

When he was painting, was completely focused.

他是个极其勤奋的人。

He was a very, very hard worker.

他在户外作画时，桌上摆着桌子、画笔和颜料，巨大的画布也早已架好，一切都为他准备妥当。

And when he was painting outside, he had a table and his brushes and his paints all arranged for him on the table, and big canvases again set up for him.

但只要一动笔，他脸上就带着笑容。

But once he started, he had a smile on his face.

他是真的沉浸在当下，享受着大自然。

I mean, was really enjoying being in the moment, being in nature.

他特别享受描绘眼前的细节，对英国的动植物了如指掌，看到什么就画什么。

He was loving the detail of what he was painting, and he knew a remarkable amount about, English flora and fauna, what was in front of him.

约克郡那些风景画里的色彩真是非同寻常。

The colors in those Yorkshire landscapes are extraordinary.

这在我看来，正体现了他追求精准呈现的执着。

And it seems to me kind of represent his his, again, the drive for accurate depiction.

他会把树干画成紫色。

He will paint a tree trunk purple.

关键在于，那正是阴影中的真实颜色。

And the point is that's what it looks like in shadow.

对。

Yes.

我的意思是，他眼中的英国乡村，色彩简直被调到了110分。

I mean, he saw the English countryside with the color turned up to a 110, you know.

我偶尔会问他，你是怎么画出布里德灵顿那种特别清冷的白色的？

And I used to ask him occasionally, how did you get that particular really chilly white over Bridlington?

他会解释说，自己用的是铅白加了一点绿、一点深红的混合颜料。

And he and he would explain the mixtures of flake white and a little bit of green, a little bit of crimson he got he used.

他很乐意分享自己的技法，但我想你脑子里可能还留着那些特别明亮的橙色树木，晨光打在上面的样子。

He was very open about his techniques, but I remember you may you may have in your mind's eye some of those extraordinary bright orange trees with the sunlight, early sunlight catching them.

我就问他，大卫，你是怎么调出那种如此耀眼的橙色，简直在发光的？

And I said, David, how did you get that that extraordinary pinging orange that just sings like?

他说，没错。

He said, Yeah.

我就是拿迈克尔·哈丁牌的橙色颜料，拧开管盖，直接挤到画布上。

What what I do is I pick up the orange paints made by Michael Harding, and I take the top off the tube, and then I put it onto the canvas.

明白了。

Okay.