拉赫玛尼诺夫——二十世纪伟大的浪漫派作曲家

BBC Sounds，音乐、广播、播客。

BBC Sounds, music, radio, podcasts.

您正在收听萨米拉·艾哈迈德主持的《前沿》节目。

You're listening to Front Row with Samira Ahmed.

谢尔盖·拉赫玛尼诺夫是最早一批伟大的作曲家钢琴家之一，他的演奏被录下了声音，比如这段1934年的录音。

Sergei Rachmaninoff was one of the first great composer pianists whose own performances were captured in recorded sound, like this recording from 1934.

他于1873年出生在俄罗斯一个贵族家庭，早年便以作曲家、钢琴家和指挥家的身份声名大噪，但在1917年革命期间不得不逃离祖国，最终定居美国，并于1943年在那里去世。

Born in 1873 in Russia to an aristocratic family, he achieved huge early fame as a composer, pianist, and conductor, but had to flee his homeland during the revolution of nineteen seventeen, settling in America where he died in 1943.

他创作了二十世纪一些最受欢迎的作品，我很高兴今天在这里能与世界上最杰出的拉赫玛尼诺夫音乐诠释者之一、钢琴家基里尔·格斯坦同台，他刚刚与柏林爱乐乐团合作发行了拉赫玛尼诺夫第二钢琴协奏曲的新录音。

He wrote some of the most popular works of the twentieth century, and I'm delighted to be joined here at the piano by one of the world's greatest interpreters of his music, the pianist Kirill Gerstein, who's just released a new recording with the Berlin Philharmonic of Rachmaninoff's second piano concerto.

同时在演播室加入我们的还有剑桥大学音乐教授、音乐史学家玛丽娜·弗罗利弗·沃克。

Also joining me in the studio is music historian Marina Frolifer Walker, professor of music at Cambridge University.

钢琴家露西·帕汉，她创作了关于拉赫玛尼诺夫的音乐会肖像并正在巡演；电影史学家兼作曲家尼尔·布兰德也到场，与我们探讨拉赫玛尼诺夫在大银幕上的呈现，尤其是这部非常英式的浪漫影片。

The pianist Lucy Parham, creator of a concert portrait of Rachmaninoff, which she's touring, and cinema historian and composer Neil Brand is here to discuss Rachmaninoff on the big screen, not least in this very British romance.

这一切都始于一个平凡的日子，在世界上最普通的地方——米尔福德车站的茶水间。

It all started on an ordinary day, in the most ordinary place in the world, the refreshment room at Milford Junction.

我当时正喝着茶，读着早上从 Boots 买来的书。

I was having a cup of tea and reading a book that I'd got that morning from Boots.

关于《相见恨晚》及其精彩的配乐，我们稍后再聊，但首先我想问一个简单的问题。

More on Brief Encounter and its fabulous score later, but first I want to start with a simple question.

露西，拉赫玛尼诺夫对你来说意味着什么？

What does Rachmaninoff mean to you, Lucy?

当你问这个问题时，我首先想到的是情感和灵魂，对我来说，没有人能像拉赫玛尼诺夫那样写出如此动人的旋律。

Do you know the first thing that comes to mind when you ask that is emotion, soul, and for me, nobody really writes melody quite like Rachmaninoff.

玛丽娜呢？

Marina?

是的，对我而言，除了情感之外，分析他的音乐也是一种智力上的追求，总是非常有收获，因为你能发现其中许多精彩之处。

Well, yeah, and beyond emotion for me, it's also intellectual pursuit of analyzing his music is always extremely rewarding because you find so many amazing things in there.

但你也不得不停下来承认，有些东西我无法完全理解，因为那是天才之作。

And yet you have to stop and say, well, this is something I can't just understand because it's genius.

是的，这是一种神奇的东西。

Yeah, it's something magical.

你很难真正抵达那种‘是的’的境界。

You can't quite get through it to the to Yes.

深处是

The bottom of

尼尔？

Neil?

我觉得，是一种丰盈感。

Oh, with a lushness, I think.

我一向钟爱那些饱满厚重的和弦，七和弦、九和弦、十一和弦。

I've always been a sucker for the big fat chords, the seventh and ninth and the eleventh.

但他的了不起在于，能把这些和弦与如此动人的旋律连接起来，每一首都是洗脑神曲。

But the fact that he can link those to such incredible melodies, they're all earworms.

这真是天才之作。

And it is genius.

我觉得，再也找不到别的说法了。

I think there's no two other ways of putting it.

基里尔当然是一位钢琴家，并录制了自己的作品。

Kirill, he was of course a pianist and recorded his own works.

我不禁想知道，他在演奏方面的影响力有多大。

And I wonder how significant he was as a performer as well.

我认为毫无疑问，他是我们乐器——钢琴——历史上最伟大的音乐家之一。

I think without a doubt, he's one of the greatest musicians to have touched the keyboard of our instrument, the piano.

伟大的作曲家未必也是伟大的演奏家，这一点并非理所当然。

It's absolutely not a given that a great composer is also a great performer.

但拉赫玛尼诺夫的情况不同，他的作曲才华与作为器乐演奏家的表现力完美结合。

But in the case of Rachmaninoff, this is a definite marriage of this of this compositional talent and the ability to express it as an instrumentalist.

我想问一下，当我们谈论他的演奏时，关于他的双手。

I want to ask, when we talk about him as a performer, about his hands.

玛丽娜，我只见过他双手的胸像。

Marina, I've only seen an image of the bust made of his hands.

他的手有多大？

How big were they?

他的手跨度有多大？

What was his span like?

嗯，非常惊人。

Well, was quite amazing.

我的意思是，基里尔肯定知道得更清楚。

I mean, Kirill would know for sure.

是的，他能轻松弹出五度加八度。

Yeah, he could do like fifth and an octave.

但我觉得还不只是这样。

But I think it's not just that.

对，他的手指特别柔软。

Yeah, they were extremely bendy.

因为，他患有马凡综合征，这使得他的关节异常灵活。

Because, well, he had this syndrome, Marfan syndrome, which made his joints extremely flexible.

而且他非常高。

And he was very tall.

他非常高。

He was very tall.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他还经常感到手、手指和关节疼痛。

And also he suffered pains in his hands and in his fingers and his joints generally.

但他能做出令人惊叹的事情。

But he could do amazing things.

他可以把手指弯得几乎像杂技演员一样。

He could sort of bend them almost like, you know, a contortionist.

所以我认为任何钢琴家都不可能拥有完全相同的双手。

So I don't think any pianist actually would have exactly the same hands.

我认为拉赫玛尼诺夫在创作音乐时，并没有想着其他钢琴家。

I don't think Rachmaninoff, when he was writing his music, was thinking of other pianists.

基里尔，我正在看着你的手。

I'm looking at your hands right now, Kirill.

我觉得，拉赫玛尼诺夫的大手是个很好的话题。

I think, you know, it's a good topic with Rachmaninoff's large hands.

是的，对于某些和弦，如果你想同时弹奏而不是分开演奏，这或许更有优势。

And yes, for some chords, if you want to play them together and not one after another spread, it's perhaps advantageous.

所以我们都需要调整自己的自然倾向和能力。

So we all have to adjust our natural affinities and abilities.

哦，我正想说，你的手很优雅，但看起来并没有那么大。

Oh, was going to say, your hands are elegant, but they don't look that huge.

你能给我们大概说说比一个八度大多少吗？

Any sense of giving us how much more than an octave?

你能给我们演示一下吗？

Could you show us how?

嗯，我可以弹出一个C和一个G，

Well, I can do a C and a G as

再远一点是多少

And how much further

能承受吗？

can take it?

哇。

Wow.

这就是我能做到的。

That's I can do

拉赫玛尼诺夫和弦通常被用作例证，但他能从上方弹奏它。

the Rachmaninoff chord that is supposedly the illustration, but he could play it from above.

再演示一次那个和弦，给我们看看。

So just place that chord again, just to show us.

他能从上方弹奏，但是

He could play it from above, but

但我的手已经不再伸展了，够用了，我能弹奏第二钢琴协奏曲的开头和弦。

you But have I stopped stretching, it's enough, I can play the opening chords of the second concerto.

但这很有趣，因为我无法伸展弹奏第二钢琴协奏曲的开头和弦。

But that's very interesting, because I can't stretch the opening chords of the second concerto.

我必须把它们都拆开，因为我

I have to break all of them because I

我手不够大。

I can't stretch.

你知道，一代代的钢琴学生都被老师训斥说：你别弹

This that, you know, generations of piano students also have been taunted by their teachers saying, well, you know, don't play

拉赫玛尼诺夫第二协奏曲，因为你够不到开头的和弦，嗯。

the second concerto of Rachmaninoff because you can't reach the chords in the beginning Mhmm.

除非把和弦拆开或者用琶音弹奏。

Without breaking them or arpeggiating them.

但如果你仔细听他的录音，我们知道他手很大，他实际上是为了音乐表现而拆分和弦。

Then if you listen to his recording carefully, and we know he had big hands, he actually breaks the chords for musical reasons.

我也建议学生别对此过于执着，让我们仔细听拉赫玛尼诺夫，他经常用琶音弹奏和弦，因为这样听起来更美，而不是因为

I suggest also to students, let's not get obsessed about it, and let's listen to Rachlanov carefully who does arpeggiate a lot of chords because it sounds nice, not because of

我

I

你知道的，这是伸展能力的限制。

you know, limitation of of stretch.

所以你给我们弹一下那些开头的和弦，就是我们刚才讨论的那些。

So you just give us those opening chords, the ones we've just been talking about.

是的。

Yeah.

所以这些和弦名义上是。

So so the chords are nominally.

但在拉赫玛尼诺夫的录音中，从第二个或第三个和弦开始，你就能听到他确实这么做了，这在十九世纪和二十世纪初是一种很普遍的传统。

But in Rachmanin's recording already by the second or third chord, you hear him go, of course was very much a tradition of the nineteenth century, early twentieth century.

我喜欢基里尔让我们感受到拉赫玛尼诺夫的录音如何帮助我们理解这个人。

I love that Kirill's give us a sense of how the recordings of Rachmaninoff help us understand the man.

玛丽娜，我想知道，你从学术角度研究过拉赫玛尼诺夫，能给我们一些关于他是个怎样的人的见解吗？

Marina, I wonder what insight you could give into what kind of man Rachmaninoff was, having approached him intellectually as well What as

什么样的人？

kind of man?

首先，他是那种我们几乎找不到什么特别糟糕事迹的作曲家之一。

Well, first of all, I mean, he's one of these composers about whom we don't know anything particularly awful.

对吧？

Right?

所以他是个好人。

So he he was a nice man.

我的意思是，他对朋友很好。

I mean, he was nice to his friends.

而且他也很少公开表达自己的观点，因此，即使他当时有某些政治立场，我们可能并不认同，我们也无从得知。

I mean, he also kept his views very much to himself, and therefore, you know, even if he had political views at the moment, we might not not agree with.

我们对他并不了解。

We didn't know about him.

当然，他是布尔什维克革命的受害者。

So, and he was, of course, the victim of the Bolshevik revolution.

他是个流亡者。

He was an exile.

是的，我们对他抱有同情。

Yes, we have sympathy for him.

他一生都深受抑郁之苦。

He was certainly a man who suffered from depression his his whole life.

对。

Yeah.

因此，他缺乏自信。

So he suffered from lack of confidence.

这既体现在他的作曲上，也体现在他的钢琴演奏中。

And that was equally with his composition and with his piano playing.

就像他说的，既然我已经转行做钢琴演奏了，那我现在可以是个不太好的钢琴家，毕竟之前我也没当好作曲家。

Like he said, well, now that I've switched to piano playing, I can be a not very good pianist or something like that now, after being not a very good composer.

所以他总是对自己非常悲观。

So he was extremely kind of down on himself all the time.

你觉得他的音乐有什么独特之处？

What would you say sets his music apart?

他与其他作曲家有什么不同？

What distinguishes him from other composers?

在我们所讨论的这个历史时期内，因为他生活在1943年。

Within the kind of historical period that we're talking about, because he lived in 1943.

你应该说他出生于1870年。

You should say born in 1870

他出生于1873年。

Born in 1873.

是的，他活到了1943年。

Yeah, lived to 1943.

他很快就变得过时了。

He very quickly became old fashioned.

是的。

Yeah.

随着现代主义的兴起，尤其是20年代十二音技法的出现，当时每个人都试图创作类似的作品——写非常不协和的音乐，写反浪漫主义的音乐。

So with the arrival of modernism, and especially 12 tone techniques in the 20s, when everyone was trying to do something like that, write very dissonant music, write music that was anti romantic.

是的。

Yeah.

他在职业生涯早期就很快变得过时了。

He became old fashioned very soon into his career.

他因此深受其害，因为评论家对他极为苛刻。

And he suffered from that because the critics were were horrendous to him.

我的意思是，如果你看一下任何新的首演作品，甚至像拉赫玛尼诺夫的《帕格尼尼主题狂想曲》这样的作品，大家都知道，这都只是受欢迎的作品。

I mean, if you look at any new premiere, even things like Rachmaninoff's Rhapsody on the theme of Paganini, and everyone's, all of this is just, you know, it's a popular piece.

这只是为观众创作的。

It's just for the audiences.

完全不具智力性。

It's not intellectual at all.

他当然受到了这种影响。

And he was affected by that certainly.

他也曾努力过。

And he tried.

他确实很大程度上改变了风格，我认为。

He certainly modified his style, I think, quite quite a lot.

但整个美学方面仍然保持不变。

But the whole aesthetic aspect of it still remained the same.

他是一位浪漫主义作曲家。

He is a romantic composer.

露西，你对《拉曼》和《离开男人》有什么看法？

Lucy, what are your thoughts about Ratman and Off the Man?

当丽娜说话时，我想起了他曾经说过的一句很棒的话：我通常被认为是个沉默的人。

Well, when Rina was speaking then, I was thinking about this lovely quote that he said that I'm generally regarded as a silent man, be it.

沉默中蕴含着安全。

In silence lies safety.

我认为，考虑到他的出身，他深知这一点确实如此，这让我非常感动。

And I think coming from where he came from, he he knew that to be very true, and I find that very touching.

但我觉得，可以说，对拉赫玛尼诺夫作为非现代主义作曲家的批评，让我们陷入了一种观点，即某种结构上的创新是成为进步和现代作曲家的必要条件。

But I think I think one could say that this this criticism of Rachmaninoff as a non modernist composer settles us into the into the argument that a certain kind of structural inventiveness is a requirement to be a progressive and a modern composer.

这是一种非常具体的、可以说是源自西欧、部分来自美国的二十世纪中期的批评。

And this is a very specific, let's say, Western European, partly American criticism of of mid century.

我认为，我们为他辩护，没关系，保持复古也无妨。

And I think us defending him, well, it's okay okay to be old fashioned.

他似乎非常真诚地创作音乐。

He seems to have written music very sincerely.

他以非常个人化的方式回应了这个动荡的世纪。

He reacted to a very tumultuous century in very personal ways.

当时，政治上、社会上、历史上和音乐上，一切都正在他脚下发生剧变。

It everything the ground was shifting under him politically, socially, historically, and musically.

因此，在这个意义上，我认为他不是一个现代主义者，但他却是一个非常现代、非常容易引起共鸣的人，因为从二十世纪到二十一世纪，世界变化的速度越来越快。

And and so in that sense, I think it makes him not a modernist, but it makes him a very modern person and very relatable because the ground is shifting ever quicker from the twentieth to the twenty first century.

我认为是弗朗茨·韦尔弗说过，要超越一个时代，就必须成为一种时代错位者。

So and I think it's Franz Werfel that said that to outlive an era, have to be an anachronism.

他对音乐所受到的批评感到困扰吗？

Did it bother him, the the the critical reaction to his music?

那当时的评论反应如何，玛丽娜？

And what was the critical reaction, Marina?

这确实让他困扰。

It did bother him.

是的。

Yeah.

评论反应我想是褒贬不一的。

And the critical reaction was, I suppose, mixed.

一方面，他拥有庞大的追随群体。

Mean, on the one hand, he had a huge cult.

对吧？

Right?

我的意思是，他有一大批粉丝。

I mean, there was a huge following.

当时俄罗斯正在崛起的中产阶级开始去听音乐会，而他就是其中一位偶像人物。

There was a middle class, the rising middle class in Russia, you know, which would just started going to concerts, he was one of the cult figures.

不知怎的，他表达了那个时代的感情基调。

Somehow he expressed the emotional kind of temperature of the era.

但与此同时，像里姆斯基-科萨科夫这样更冷静的作曲家却觉得，这太过直白，太过真诚。

But at the same time, you know, the cooler composers such as Rimsky Korsakov felt, you know, this was a bit too open, a bit too sincere.

因此，是的，这简直有点粗俗。

And therefore, yeah, it's kind of almost vulgar.

尤其是在那个象征主义盛行、一切表达都极为含蓄的时代，即便如此，他的音乐也显得格格不入。

And especially, you know, at that time when when there was symbolism and things were expressed in a very veiled way, it wasn't a damn thing even then.

露西，我们来

Lucy, let's

回到拉特马诺夫职业生涯的起点吧，因为我们已经谈过并暗示过他的抑郁和不安全感，但他小时候是个神童，对吧？

go back to the start of Ratmanov's career because we we've talked and hinted at the depression and the insecurity, but he was a child prodigy, wasn't he?

他确实是个神童，当时有趣的是，尽管他显然是一位极具天赋的钢琴家，但他的心思已经开始转向作曲。

He was a child prodigy and what was interesting at that time is that his thoughts were already, even though he was clearly a hugely talented pianist, his thoughts were turning to compositions.

但我想，正如大家所说，他是个非常敏感的孩子，内心充满孤独，而音乐成了他独处的寄托。

But he was I think there was a lot of solitude in his, as everyone has been saying, a very sensitive child, and he found solitude in music.

而且，你知道，在他祖母乡下的家里，他喜欢划着渔船出去钓鱼，我觉得他就像我们现在说的，年轻的身体里藏着一颗老灵魂。

And also, you know, in the country home of his grandmother where he loved to be out in his fishing canoe and just I think he was what we might say now as an old soul in a young in a young body.

这就是我对他非常鲜明的印象。

That that's how I very much see him.

即使是在最欢欣、最辉煌的音乐中，也总有一丝哀愁的线索。

And the music, even in the most jubilant, triumphant music, there's always a thread of pathos.

你知道，它从未达到那种彻底的快乐。

You know, it never hits that total happiness.

它总是在提醒我们，哀愁其实并不遥远。

It's always reminding us that pathos is not far away.

他19岁时创作的《升c小调前奏曲》让他一举成名。

He came to fame with his prelude in c sharp minor composed when he was 19.

对吗？

Is that right?

给我们讲讲这首曲子以及它带来的影响。

Tell us about this piece and the impact it had.

嗯，这首曲子，我得说，他过去常称它为该死的前奏曲，并把它看作是自己向世界展示的名片。

Well, this piece, I mean, I must say he used to call it this damn prelude and and talk about it as it has been his calling card to the world.

他创作了这首曲子，它变得极其流行，但不幸的是，他没有获得这首曲子的版权。

He wrote it and it became incredibly popular and he unfortunately did not get the rights to the piece.

所以这首曲子赚了大笔大笔的钱，但他一分都没拿到。

So it made loads and loads of money, but he didn't see any of it.

尽管他

Although he

没有，他没有申请国际版权。

didn't He didn't secure the international copyright.

没错。

Exactly.

但他曾说，不是吗？他其实并不后悔，因为他知道这首曲子成了他向世界展示的名片，那

But he said, didn't he, that he actually didn't regret that because he knew that it became his calling card to the What

你对这首曲子怎么看？

do you make of the piece?

因为这是每个初学钢琴者都会弹的曲子，对吧？

Because it is a bit of a staple of every budding pianist, isn't it?

因为这是一首难度高且炫技的作品。

Because it's a difficult, showy piece.

是的。

Yes.

他过去还管它叫《前奏曲》。

He apparently used to call it also the It Prelude.

嗯。

Mhmm.

因为人们，尤其是在他在美国的音乐会上，会大声喊着让他演奏这首曲子。

Because people, especially at his concerts in The United States, people would shout, play it.

演奏它。

Play it.

这使得

Which give

开头给我们来一小段，提醒一下我们。

us a bit of a burst at the beginning, just to remind us.

哦，只弹前三音就够了，然后每个人都知道了。

Oh, just play the first three notes, which then everybody knows.

所以

So

我真的认为这首作品是一部杰作，我认为许多去听它的人可能不知道，它灵感来源于钟声。

I really do think this piece it really is a masterpiece, and I think many people who maybe go to hear it in a or don't know that it's it's inspired by bells.

而钟声，正如我们所知，贯穿了他所有的音乐。

And bells, as we know, go through everything of his music.

当你听到结尾处所有钟声齐鸣的高潮再现时，那是一种非常感人且振奋人心的音乐，它确实是一部小型杰作。

And when you hear that climactic recapitulation at the end with all the peeling bells, it's very emotional and uplifting music and it it is a small masterpiece.

在谈过这位年轻人凭借《升c小调前奏曲》一鸣惊人之后，紧接着他在二十出头时遭遇了第一交响曲的重大失败。

Having talked about the kind of breakout of this, you know, teenager with his prelude in C sharp minor, after that success came the great failure of the first symphony when he was in his early twenties.

玛丽娜，为什么它失败了？

Marina, why did it fail?

这是一首非常雄心勃勃的作品。

Well, it was a very ambitious piece.

他在圣彼得堡首演了这部作品，而那里是一个充满敌意的地方。

He had it premiered in Petersburg, which was a hostile place.

所以他们对他开放的风格存在争议。

So they had this problem with his openness.

我认为当时人们对这部交响曲抱有负面情绪。

And I think there was just negative feeling about the symphony.

负责指挥的格拉祖诺夫表现得很差，对这部作品也没有兴趣。

And Glasunov who was conducting it, just didn't do a very good job, and wasn't interested in it.

所以这是一个著名的故事

So And this is a famous story

关于伊波诺夫在舞台后方的楼梯上观看演出。

of Epunov watching from the stairs behind the stage.

但据报道称，格拉祖诺夫至少是醉酒的，而且演出显然也准备不足。

But he too seems the reports are that Glasanov was at least drunk, and certainly the performance was also unprepared.

我能问问这对里卡尔德·赖曼宁诺夫的影响吗？

Can I ask about the impact on Reichmaninoff Kirill?

因为他后来经历了心理崩溃，这改变了他，不是吗？他余生都因此而不同。

Because he had a subsequent psychological collapse, and that changed him, didn't he, for the rest of his life.

当然，但似乎深层的不安全感和自我批评是他与生俱来的特质。

Absolutely, though, it seems that the deep insecurity and self criticism was an inherent trait.

在这部作品之后，他确实经历了有些人称之为创作瓶颈的状态。

And after this piece, indeed he experiences what some may call a writer's block.

在好几年里，他要么创作上陷入沉默，要么至少在默默酝酿。

And for for several years, he is either creatively silenced or at least brewing.

事实上，第二钢琴协奏曲，据著名的故事所述，是他重返音乐创作的突破之作。

And in fact, the second concerto, as the famous story goes, is this breakthrough of returning to writing music.

但确实有什么东西崩塌了，因为第一交响曲——后来从乐谱碎片中被发现并重建——显示他在这一体裁中曾大胆地进行实验。

But something indeed cracked because the first the first symphony, was, later found and reconstructed from from Bard, shows him to be indeed very boldly experimenting in the genre.

因此，这确实似乎成了一种定义人生的重大创伤。

And so so this really does seem to have been a sort of life defining trauma.

他使用了催眠术，对吧，玛丽娜？

He used hypnotism, didn't he Marina?

我们能从拉赫玛尼诺夫的心理状态中学到什么？从某种意义上说，他在多大程度上走在了当时关于艺术家如何利用干预手段克服抑郁的前沿思想的前列？

What can we learn about what was going on in Rachmaninoff's mind, in a sense how far he's actually at the cutting edge of the new thinking about how artists might use interventions to help them overcome depression.

是的，著名的第二钢琴协奏曲就是献给医生的。

Yes, famously, the second piano concerto is dedicated to Doctor.

达尓，是的，还有医生。

Dahl, yeah, and Doctor.

埃利·达尓，他是他的治疗师。

Eli Dahl, who was his therapist.

他是一位非常时尚的治疗师，许多来自同一社交圈的人也找他治疗，比如斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基和舒利亚·平。

And he was a very fashionable therapist and a lot of people from the same social circle also used him such as Stanislavsky and Shulya Pin.

他显然从中受益了，尽管这并没有治愈他的抑郁，因为抑郁显然又回来了。

And he benefited from this, obviously, although it didn't cure him from depression, you know, as obviously returned.

但它帮助他完成了这部协奏曲，这部作品他多年来一直在为伦敦的演出做准备。

But it helped him to finish this concerto, which he was trying to prepare for London for years.

我就是做不到。

I just couldn't do it.

我认为拉赫玛尼诺夫的问题部分在于，他总是有太多音乐想法，几乎把他压垮了。

And and I think the problem, partially with with Rachmaninoff was that he always had too many musical ideas, like, kind of overwhelming him.

基里尔，你当然已经与柏林爱乐乐团录制过第二钢琴协奏曲。

Kirill, you have, of course, recorded the second piano concerto with the Berlin Philharmonic.

我们来听一听。

Let's listen.

基里尔，这首钢琴协奏曲对你意味着什么？

Kira, what does this piano concerto mean to you?

我认为拉赫玛尼诺夫的第二钢琴协奏曲，正是我们心目中与拉赫玛尼诺夫、钢琴以及协奏曲概念紧密相连的典范：英雄般的独奏钢琴，在汹涌澎湃的管弦乐海洋中孤身奋战。

I would say the second piano concerto of Rachmaninoff is quintessential to to what I think we associate in music and popular culture with Rachmaninoff with piano, with the idea of a concerto, the heroic, lone grand piano in amidst the sea of this tumultuous orchestra.

这是一段充满活力的音乐，正如玛丽娜开头所说，它被包裹在一个几乎难以穿透的美丽外壳中，因为它完全将你席卷而去。

This is a very active brew, and and as you can see, it's so wonderfully wrapped into this, as Marina said in the beginning, almost impenetrable package of beauty because it just sweeps you away.

我认为它作为表演者也深深打动了我，它理应如此——以这股音符、思想与情感的洪流将人彻底征服。

And I think it sweeps me away as a as a performer, and it should sweep one away, this torrent of notes, ideas, emotions.

在第一乐章的激情之后，露西，第二乐章——慢板——却异常宁静。

And after the kind of passion of the first movement, Lucy, there's this serene second movement too, the slow movement.

一个平静的时刻吗？

A moment of calm?

绝对是平静的时刻，他运用木管乐器，尤其是单簧管，这与第二交响曲的慢板非常相似。

Absolutely a moment of calm and the way that he uses the woodwinds and in particular the clarinet which is very similar to the slow movement of the second symphony.

但对我来说，这是这部作品的核心，因为它如此个人化。

But it is a moment, for me it's the heart of the work because it's so personal.

在那段乐章的开头，他变得极为亲密，一切都变得简洁纯粹。

He becomes very intimate in those early bars of that and it just pares everything down.

在这里，记忆的作用也很重要，因为钢琴家演奏的这段伴奏，你知道……

Here, again, the the function of memory is important because this accompaniment that the pianist plays, which which, you know

管弦乐的旋律由此展开。

There's the melodies for the orchestra.

是的。

Yeah.

因此，钢琴作为伴奏，但这段旋律、这段伴奏实际上源自他更早的一部作品——《六手浪漫曲》，他在乡间庄园的夏夜与那些美丽的姐妹们一起演奏过。

And so the piano accompanies, but this melody this this accompaniment actually comes from a much earlier piece, this Romance for for Six Hands, which he played in those summer evenings in country estate with these beautiful sisters.

所以，这再次体现了拉赫玛尼诺夫以及许多伟大作曲家如何将这些旋律或动机的种子带在身边，它们有时会在十年后以完全不同的形式重现。

And and so so this is again how how Rachmaninoff and how many great composers carry these melodic or motivic seeds with them and how they pop up sometimes a decade later in a completely different context.

事实上，大家都知道《帕格尼尼主题狂想曲》的第十八变奏，那个著名的段落，当然，它是帕格尼尼主题的倒影。

In fact, you know, the everybody knows the eighteenth variation of the of the Paganini Rhapsody, the famous Which is, of course, the inversion of the theme of Paganini.

但事实上，他在二十世纪二十年代就已经在运用这种倒影手法了。

But in fact, he's playing with this inversion already in the twenties.

《帕格尼尼主题狂想曲》创作于三十年代。

The Paganini Rhapsody comes from the thirties.

所以，这些都不是偶然出现的东西。

So so these are not things that just come up accidentally.

这些作曲家会携带着这些想法，让它们在心中孕育数十年。

These composers carry these ideas and can be pregnant with them for decades.

我们可以谈一谈拉赫玛尼诺夫是如何在他的音乐中构建高潮的吗，基里尔？

Can we talk a bit, Kirill, I guess, about Rachmaninoff and how he he builds climax through his music.

因为在那首钢琴协奏曲的第二乐章中，我们就看到了这样的例子，对吧？

Because we get an example of it in that second movement, don't we, of that piano concerto.

你能给我们谈谈你如何看待拉赫玛尼诺夫运用高潮的方式吗？

Can you give us a sense of how you think of Rachmaninoff and the way he uses climax?

我认为拉赫玛尼诺夫在结构上有着惊人的掌控力，我们知道他在创作和演奏中都非常注重这一点——他会说，某个时刻所有元素都会向它汇聚，然后又逐渐消散，我认为作为一名音乐家，他在生理层面上对这种规律是有感知的，无论是在作曲还是钢琴演奏中。

Well, I think there's incredible structural control in Rachmaninoff, and we know he was very busy with it in in composition and in playing, where he says, you know, there's a certain point that everything gravitates to and then dissipates from, and and he was, I think, biologically aware of this as a musician, be it in composition and or piano playing.

从他的录音中我也观察到，如果你仔细分析这些高潮是如何构建的，会发现他的高潮并不是一个尖峰，而更像是一座山巅上的高原。

My observation from his recordings also, and if you look at how these climaxes are constructed, that his climaxes are less of a peak, but more of a of a plateau on top of a mountain.

他达到这个高点后，仿佛在某个想象中的顶点上缓缓越过。

So he reaches this high point, and there is sort of the cresting over this imaginary one point.

这可以说是他音乐中非常迷人且极具个人特色的一点——它并不会在达到最响亮或最强烈的一刻就立即消退，而是缓缓越过顶点，从而将前后部分自然地连接起来。

And and so and that is quite, I would say, quite a sexy feature of his music and and quite specific to him, that it doesn't reach, let's say, the loudest or most intense point and just start dissipating, but it sort of crests over and therefore connects the before and the after.

所以是逐渐下降，就像翻过山脊一样。

So there's a gradual coming down, like over the crest

罗多普山的山脊。

of the Rhodops.

但确实存在一个我想象中的山顶，它像一片平坦的区域，而不是一个锯齿状的峰顶。

But but but there is sort of a mountaintop that I would imagine is flat as a as a certain area, and it's not just a jagged peak.

我认为，这正是拉赫玛尼诺夫的独特之处，也是他构建和声的方式的特别之处。

And and that, I think, is quite particular to Rachmaninoff and and the way he constructs combinations.

这与斯克里亚宾的做法非常不同。

It's very different from what Scriabin does.

是的。

Yeah.

因为他们是同时代的人，你知道的，基本上是同班同学。

Because they are contemporaries, you know, basically class classmates.

斯克里亚宾也非常注重情欲，尽管带有一些神秘色彩。

And Scriabin is also very much into eroticism, although somewhat kind of esoterically.

他的高潮总是非常接近结尾。

And his climax is always very, very close to the end.

是的。

Yeah.

在那之后几乎再没有什么发生，他也不知道如何在那之后结束这首曲子。

Almost as nothing else happens after that, and he doesn't know how to finish the piece after that.

而在拉赫玛尼诺夫的作品中，这种高潮通常几乎就在作品的正中央，就在正中间。

And in Rachmaninoff's pieces, they're usually almost sometimes in the middle, right bang in the middle of the piece.

是的。

Yeah.

所以你拥有同样多的下降部分。

So you have the same amount of descent.

是的。

Yeah.

和你拥有的上升部分一样多。

As you have the same the the amount of ascent.

由于这种下降，正如基里尔精彩地形容的那样，会在山顶久久盘旋。

And because of this descent, which lingers as Kirill wonderfully put, you know, lingers over the top of the mountain for such a long time.

我认为，正因如此，我们才感受到那种与拉赫玛尼诺夫音乐紧密相连的哀婉与怀旧——因为我们正在与那美好的时刻长久告别。

I think because of that, we get the sense of poignancy and nostalgia that we associate with Rachmano's music precisely because we we are saying farewell, yeah, or goodbye to that to that wonderful moment for a very long time.

1917年俄国革命爆发时，拉赫玛尼诺夫在社会上处于什么位置？

When the nineteen seventeen Russian revolution happens, where is Rachmaninoff sort of socially?

他多久后就感到必须离开？

And how soon does he feel he needs to leave?

是的，他是个贵族。

Yeah, well, was an aristocrat.

我的意思是，问题在于他家里没什么钱，因为父母离异，他父亲把家产挥霍一空。

I mean, the problem was that his family didn't have very much money, yeah, because his parents were divorced and, you know, his father fritted away the fortune.

但他出身于非常优越的家庭背景。

But he was from a very privileged background.

后来他娶了门当户对的亲戚，也就是他的表妹。

And then he married well, yeah, in within his family to his cousin.

所以他拥有伊万诺夫卡的庄园。

So he had this estate in Ivanovka.

但在1917年，布尔什维克革命爆发了，这对他来说是完全不可接受的。

But in 1917, the Bolshevik revolution happened, which is completely unacceptable to him.

所以那时，他只带着几个行李箱离开了。

So at that point, he he leaves with basically a few suit suitcases.

他去了美国。

He's to America.

首先是斯堪的纳维亚。

First, Scandinavia.

但不仅如此，我认为他不仅对这种情况感到不安，或失去了特权地位和庄园，而且他很可能也担心自己和家人的安全，他的家族成员很多，他必须供养所有人。

But but also, it's not only that he's, I think, upset with it or loses his privileged status or the estate, but I think there is reasonable fear for his for his family, and his family was quite extended and he had to provide for everybody.

而且我认为，他还无法再像以前那样自由地从事自己的艺术创作。

And I think there's a matter of being able to to practice his art the way he used to practice it.

他所熟知和热爱的整个生活方式，在他眼前以一种极其暴力的方式崩塌了。

And the whole order of life that he knew and loved collapses in front of his eyes in a very violent way.

是的。

Yeah.

而且他是在深夜乘雪橇离开，前往瑞典，只带了一些乐谱和家人，几乎一无所有。

And the fact that he, you know, left by Sledge in the dead of night to go to Sweden with just, excuse me, with just some scores, and his family, he had very little.

你知道吗，当时的情况与当今世界正在发生的事有很多相似之处。

You know, there were a lot of parallels with what what's going on in the world today.

我认为我们常常会忘记，拉赫曼为了离开他深爱的祖国所经历的一切，是前所未有的。

And I think that we often maybe forget that about Rahman and of what he did, what he had to do to leave his beloved homeland was just without parallel.

他根本无法想象，因为他的房子被烧毁了。

Something he couldn't have imagined because they burnt down his house.

当他最终抵达美国时，我想知道这段创伤性的离别对他的人生以及他后来创作的音乐产生了怎样的影响，因为他并没有创作太多音乐，尽管他确实写了一些非常重要的作品。

So when he does make it to America, I wonder what effect this whole traumatic departure has on him in terms of his life and the music that he does go on to compose, because he doesn't compose that much music, although he does do some very important pieces.

他确实没怎么作曲。

He he doesn't compose much.

你说得完全对。

You're absolutely right.

因为他为了赚钱而大量演出，直到后来他搬到塞纳的别墅时才开始作曲，他在那里创作了……

Because he's performing so much to in order to earn the money, and he doesn't compose till much later when he goes to his villa, Seina, where he composed the

说唱场景

rap scene

在瑞士。

in Switzerland.

但我认为，在美国，他感到自己与被迫离开的故土非常亲近，却从未觉得自己是个美国人。

But I think in America, he feels very close to the land that he had to leave behind, and he never feels American.

这背后有一种深深的悲伤。

There's a great sadness about that.

那么，玛丽娜，他为什么从未回过俄罗斯？

Well, Marina, why didn't he never go back to Russia?

对拉赫玛尼诺夫来说，这是不可接受的，因此他拒绝了苏联政府的所有劝返提议。

To Rakhmanov, it was unacceptable, so he would reject all the advan approaches from the Soviet government.

这个政权让他感到难以接受。

The regime was unpalatable to him.

他公开批评它。

He criticized it publicly.

他在报纸上发表了声明。

He made statements in the newspapers.

这就是为什么他的音乐在苏联俄罗斯也曾被短暂禁演的原因。

This is why there was a kind of a short time ban on his music in Soviet Russia as well.

所以对他来说这是不可接受的。

So it was unacceptable to him.

从那时起，俄罗斯对他来说就不存在了，你知道的，真的不存在了。

Russia stopped existing for him at that point, you know, really.

他所认识的俄罗斯。

Russia that he knew.

那是一个完全不同的国家。

It was a different different state.

那里发生的种种可怕事情让他感到不安，也让他变得苦涩。

And various horrible things that were happening there, upset him and made him bitter.

是的。

Yeah.

我同意马琳娜的看法。

I agree with Marina.

我觉得这几乎根本不是个问题，为什么他没有回去。

I think I think it's not it's almost not a question why didn't he return.

因为他无处可回，因为他所熟知的俄罗斯已经不复存在了。

There was nowhere for him to return to because because the country that he knew as Russia had ceased to exist.

这就像是传说中沉没的亚特兰蒂斯，但他本人极其成功，再次变得财务富足，并在许多方面受到赞誉。

It was like, you know, the the sunken Atlantis, but he was incredibly successful, he was again financially affluent, and in many ways celebrated.

让我们回顾一下到目前为止的讨论，我认为你所做的，是挑战了关于拉赫玛尼诺夫那种懒惰的刻板印象——认为他某种程度上不属于现代作曲家。

Let's go, what we've done so far, I think what you've done so far, is challenged the lazy stereotype of Rachmaninoff as somehow out of, as somewhat not a modern composer.

但我们确实同意，他是一位浪漫主义作曲家，而且在职业生涯早期，他确实被视为与现代时代格格不入。

But we do agree he was a romantic and certainly he was seen certainly earlier in his career as out of kilter with the modern age.

因此，他成为二十世纪伟大艺术形式——电影的配乐，这多么奇特，又多么令人欣喜。

So how strange and how delightful that he became the soundtrack to that great art form of the twentieth century cinema.

尼尔·布兰德，作曲家、广播人和电影配乐史学家，今天将与我们短暂探讨拉赫玛尼诺夫在电影中的生涯。

Neil Brand, composer, broadcaster and soundtrack historian is here for our own brief encounter with Rachmaninoff's life in film.

让我们从1945年由诺埃尔·科沃德编剧、大卫·利恩执导的那部电影开始。

And let's start with that 1945 film written by Noel Coward, directed by David Lean.

你能解释一下这种非凡的音乐结合吗？

Can you explain this remarkable musical marriage?

我想问你一个问题，只是为了确认一下。

I want to ask you something, just to reassure myself.

是什么？

What is it?

对你来说，这是真的，对吧？

It is true for you, isn't it?

我们之间这种强烈的情感，对你来说和对我一样真实，对吧？

This overwhelming feeling we have for each other, it's as true for you as it is for me, isn't it?

这是真的。

This is true.

《相见恨晚》这部电影改编自考沃德创作的一部非常短的戏剧。

Brief Encounter was a film made up of a very short play that Coward Coward had written.

它是系列短剧的一部分。

It was part of a cycle of short plays.

令人着迷的是，莱恩曾与考沃德讨论将这部作品拍成电影。

And what was fascinating was that Lean talked to Coward about making a film of this.

这将是他们合作的第四部电影。

It would be their fourth film together.

当时考沃德正环游世界为士兵们演出。

And Coward was actually off around the world to entertain the troops.

因此，他把莱恩、罗纳德·尼姆和安东尼·哈弗洛克·艾伦这些制片人留在了后面，让他们来制作这部电影。

So he kind of left Lean and Ronald Neem and Anthony Havelock, Allen, the producers, to create the film.

他只提了一个要求：音乐必须绝对使用拉赫玛尼诺夫的《第二钢琴协奏曲》。

And all he said was, I have one stipulation, the music must absolutely be Rachmaninoff and the Rachmaninoff second piano concerto.

这是他最喜爱的作品之一。

It was one of his favorite pieces.

但他为电影设定了具体的语境，他曾明确说过：她打开收音机，聆听拉赫玛尼诺夫的音乐。

But the way that he put it into context for the film, and he said this in so many words, she switches on the radio to listen to Rachmaninoff.

她从布茨书店借书，也在卡多玛餐厅用餐。

She gets her library books from Boots and she eats at the Cardoma.

卡多玛是一家非常特别的咖啡馆，如果你愿意这么说的话，它是一家有抱负的街边咖啡馆。

Now the Cardoma was a very, if you might say, high street cafe but with pretensions.

比狮子角咖啡馆更胜一筹。

A bit has more than the lion's corner house.

比狮子角咖啡馆更高级一点。

A bit more than a lion's corner house.

那里的食物和服务都要好得多。

You've got much better food there and better service.

但他基本上想表达的是，凯莉·约翰逊饰演的角色——任何还没看过《相见恨晚》的人，这部电影讲的是两个已婚的、正直的人，不知不觉地爱上了对方。

But what he's basically saying is that the character Celia Johnson plays, and anybody who hasn't seen Brief Encounter, this is a film about two married people, honorable people, falling in love with each other kind of against their will.

因此，考沃德希望他的人物所处的世界，是观众能够从中看到自己的影子的世界，一个中产阶级的世界，一个有财力、有安全感和稳定性的世界，而他们却正因自己的行为而冒险失去这一切。

So the world that Coward wants from his characters is one in which people would recognise themselves, but as a kind of a middle class world, a world in which there's a bit of money, in which there's safety and security, and they are risking all of that safety and security by what they're doing.

于是，拉赫玛尼诺夫的音乐出现了。

So in comes Rachmaninoff.

电影的开场正是那八个和弦的开头，伴随着火车呼啸驶过车站的声音，而此时我们对故事还一无所知。

The opening of the film is absolutely the opening eight chords and the trains whizzing by the station before we know anything about the story.